I don’t think Trick Room is really something that has changed much since the introduction of Stakataka, with Magearna still being the standout user of it in OU. That being said it still has huge potential on the ladder although it’s predictability might hinder it somewhat in tourney play. What I’ve found recently is that Trick Room can destroy offense and stall (through its use of slow wallbreakers like Mawile, Reuniclus) but still has issues with bulky offense - namely Hoopa-U, Heatran, and previously Zygarde. The absence of the sand snake might be a boon since the two aforementioned users were Ground-weak (and so is Mawile and Marowak, common breakers) but I haven’t played enough yet to make a conclusion. Nevertheless I think Trick Room is mostly just as viable as it was before.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
- Status
SupremeFashion
Banned deucer.
trick room is bad because.
well its like rain (also rly bad) u hav to set up the thing with a move,,, and then u only get like 4 turns to do ANYtHING!. And then it ends.
6 pokemon = 4 turns (switching allows more) = no time spent. Trick room is just bad.
well its like rain (also rly bad) u hav to set up the thing with a move,,, and then u only get like 4 turns to do ANYtHING!. And then it ends.
6 pokemon = 4 turns (switching allows more) = no time spent. Trick room is just bad.
ok I know I'm not that into ou or anything but how does this make sense.
Yes TR isn't the best playstyle but certain mons on TR can be really threatening under TR especially if it can set up. Rain isn't bad at all, its another playstyle that allows certain pokemon to be threatening under rain and rain comes with setters like pelipper who just need to switch in to start rain. they may not be the best playstyles, but still they have potential to do good in certain mus.
This is a MAJOR limitation of TR, but saying trick room or rain or sand or sun or veils or even freaking hail is bad because of limited turns is a terrible argument. The point of all of those strategies is to dominate and pick up koes almost every turn your abuser is on the field. Now if the turns were unlimited all of these strategies would be pretty broken as we saw in gen 5.
Now Trick room is the worst of the lot in turns of turn number, but it is also characterized by the most game breaking mechanics of them all. I find full trick room, a hard strategy to implement, but if you've ever tried to play against it with any hyper offensive playstyle and your opponent knew what they were doing you lost.
Last edited:
I think the abilities beast boost and Soul Heart make those two Tick room users so much better because they basically get a free Meditate or Growth (pre-buff) for every pokemon they KO which isn't hard with the addition of Z moves. That in my opinion more than makes up for the turn you lose setting up a move that will not only help that poke but most likely, every other poke on your team as well
I definitely agree with this, especially since most TR users are pretty bulky (Uxie & Cresselia) and can usually take at least a few non-super effective and sometimes even super effective hits. TR also can really hurt teams with mon like gren and scarf lando-t and just generally speedy pokemon like weavile, who don't have the strongest defenses (excluding Lando, I'm sorry). TR also works great with pokemon that are already boosted, and doesn't need to worry about status or damage with clerics like clefable.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/destiny-ou-572488
Im prety sure this guy was trying to use TR Regirock
But it didn't work out
And the Bulu didn't make much sense to me either
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/destiny-ou-572488
Im prety sure this guy was trying to use TR Regirock
But it didn't work out
And the Bulu didn't make much sense to me either
Last edited by a moderator:
Alright I wanted to start a discussion on Sun, an archetype I've been playing recently and in my opinion is not bad at all despite having zero presence on the VR or most people's radars.
Setters: Torkoal, Ninetales, Char-Y
Tork or Tales is pretty much necessary on any sun team as 8 turns is a lot more than 5. Char-Y has a lot more offensive prensence than either and makes a great backup setter. I prefer Tales over Tork as sun is typically about hitting as fast and hard as possible and also because Tales can exclusively set sun instead of being forced into a hazard control mon. Hypnosis is nifty tech as well, accuracy not included.
Chlorophyll Abusers: Venusaur, Victreebell, Exeggutor
Venusauar is the preferred choice here. It is faster and less frail than Victreebell while hitting not as hard. Weather ball is cool but also loses any viability outside of sun while hp fire stays true. Venusaur can also go mixed and run earthquake for shredding tran. The only other chlor abuser worth mentioning IMO is Exeggutor which has slightly different stabs and hits much harder initially although it doesn't get growth. I don't see much reason to use physical chlor abusers as they suffer from strong OU competition in kartana and tapu bulu.
Fire Abusers: Mega-doom, Victini, Char-X
Not much to say here other than all 3 of these mons nuke the opposition in the sun. Banded Victini is killing everything that doesn't have flash fire with v-create, char-x is ohkoing lando-t, Mega-doom is nuking everything, last but not least Z-tini's searing shot packs the extra punch it's looking for.
Hazard Control/flying check: Lando-t, Mega-Diancie, Zapdos
The last essential role on a sun team is some form of hazard control/flying check. Rocks will ruin your fire types including your setter so they need to be gone. Mega-Pinsir, Dragonite, and Salamence might not be the most common threats but they will eat sun alive especially after a boost. Hawlucha will also outspeed your entire team. Since sun does not require either its setters or abusers to be mega, diancie is a viable choice for the mega slot. Zapdos and Lando-t can also control hazards while checking these dangerous mons.
Dealer's choice: In my opinion what is great about sun compared to some other archetypes is its relative flexibility. You can load up on chlor abusers, add some vital defensive presence, or turn into a fire spam or grass spam team. Basically anything that doesn't rely on powerful water moves or a stall build can function on a sun team.
Archetype Matchup (ranked roughly best to worst):
Stall: Sun rolls with power and just overwhelms most stall builds.
Balance: Can overwhelm defensive mons while outspeeding fast mons. Sun does quite well against balance.
Bulky Offense: Sun breakers can usually overpower bulky offense but the chlor abuser might not be able to nab the koes it usually gets
Generic Hyper O: Usually speed and power is on your side, but depends on build.
Webs: Chlorophyll abusers are just faster. Pinsir is a big time threat though.
Screens/Veil: More matchup dependent, breakers can smash through screens in the sun. Screens often has problematic mons though that can greatly threaten sun teams.
Sand: Sun fares pretty poorly against alternative weather except for the non-viable hail. Hippowdon is a lot easier to weather war with than ttar. Like most weather matchups being victorious in the weather war will all but guarantee victory.
Trick Room: Flipping speed is really bad for sun. That said after the initial suicide setter, the sun breakers make it difficult for the Trick Room team to sustain Trick room.
Rain: Win the weather war or lose. Winning the weather war against rain is hard.
Closing notes:
Alright hopefully I've convinced you that sun needs more attention in this metagame. It's a fun fast paced playstyle that matches up favorably to most of the more common playstyles. Be interested to hear from other sun players what they think of the features of the archetype. I'll be posting an RMT in the near future on the Sun team I've been using the most for the skeptical.
Setters: Torkoal, Ninetales, Char-Y
Tork or Tales is pretty much necessary on any sun team as 8 turns is a lot more than 5. Char-Y has a lot more offensive prensence than either and makes a great backup setter. I prefer Tales over Tork as sun is typically about hitting as fast and hard as possible and also because Tales can exclusively set sun instead of being forced into a hazard control mon. Hypnosis is nifty tech as well, accuracy not included.
Chlorophyll Abusers: Venusaur, Victreebell, Exeggutor
Venusauar is the preferred choice here. It is faster and less frail than Victreebell while hitting not as hard. Weather ball is cool but also loses any viability outside of sun while hp fire stays true. Venusaur can also go mixed and run earthquake for shredding tran. The only other chlor abuser worth mentioning IMO is Exeggutor which has slightly different stabs and hits much harder initially although it doesn't get growth. I don't see much reason to use physical chlor abusers as they suffer from strong OU competition in kartana and tapu bulu.
Fire Abusers: Mega-doom, Victini, Char-X
Not much to say here other than all 3 of these mons nuke the opposition in the sun. Banded Victini is killing everything that doesn't have flash fire with v-create, char-x is ohkoing lando-t, Mega-doom is nuking everything, last but not least Z-tini's searing shot packs the extra punch it's looking for.
Hazard Control/flying check: Lando-t, Mega-Diancie, Zapdos
The last essential role on a sun team is some form of hazard control/flying check. Rocks will ruin your fire types including your setter so they need to be gone. Mega-Pinsir, Dragonite, and Salamence might not be the most common threats but they will eat sun alive especially after a boost. Hawlucha will also outspeed your entire team. Since sun does not require either its setters or abusers to be mega, diancie is a viable choice for the mega slot. Zapdos and Lando-t can also control hazards while checking these dangerous mons.
Dealer's choice: In my opinion what is great about sun compared to some other archetypes is its relative flexibility. You can load up on chlor abusers, add some vital defensive presence, or turn into a fire spam or grass spam team. Basically anything that doesn't rely on powerful water moves or a stall build can function on a sun team.
Archetype Matchup (ranked roughly best to worst):
Stall: Sun rolls with power and just overwhelms most stall builds.
Balance: Can overwhelm defensive mons while outspeeding fast mons. Sun does quite well against balance.
Bulky Offense: Sun breakers can usually overpower bulky offense but the chlor abuser might not be able to nab the koes it usually gets
Generic Hyper O: Usually speed and power is on your side, but depends on build.
Webs: Chlorophyll abusers are just faster. Pinsir is a big time threat though.
Screens/Veil: More matchup dependent, breakers can smash through screens in the sun. Screens often has problematic mons though that can greatly threaten sun teams.
Sand: Sun fares pretty poorly against alternative weather except for the non-viable hail. Hippowdon is a lot easier to weather war with than ttar. Like most weather matchups being victorious in the weather war will all but guarantee victory.
Trick Room: Flipping speed is really bad for sun. That said after the initial suicide setter, the sun breakers make it difficult for the Trick Room team to sustain Trick room.
Rain: Win the weather war or lose. Winning the weather war against rain is hard.
Closing notes:
Alright hopefully I've convinced you that sun needs more attention in this metagame. It's a fun fast paced playstyle that matches up favorably to most of the more common playstyles. Be interested to hear from other sun players what they think of the features of the archetype. I'll be posting an RMT in the near future on the Sun team I've been using the most for the skeptical.
I never really play with sun (Idk why, I mabye just don't get around to it) but now I'm definitely going to try it soon. I think one of the problems with it though is that rain just seems more meta and easier to set up, even while not having as much variety for its abusers as sun does. Also, if I were to use exeggutor, I would usually use harvest with either chesto+rest or sitrus berry (Plus, in my opinion, non-mega venusaur is pretty trash in general). I do like the idea of having an entire team based on chlorophyll and fire blast, but I would think some mon like ash-gren and pex would really wall a team with the small possibility of only the dealers choice or the flying check be something that can deal with water or rock mon. Regardless, the power and speed makes me happy thinking about the wallbreaking potential.
Venusaur is lethal as hell in the sun especially if it can get a growth boost, and is arguably the best reason to use sun.
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 590-695 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(yes +6 on chansey is a relevant calc as chansey can't ko before boost to +6)
Water and rock isn't really a problem as long as sun is up. I'll acknowledge that tyranitar and pelipper are huge problems (and to a lesser extent hippo and alola-tales though both of them fall to fire spam).
Sorry I didn't specify the mon I was talking about when I said rock and water (ttar and peli) but I actually had no idea about Venusaur, srry about that. I just never use it or see it outside of mega
While I agree that Venusaur is deadly, I feel that he is one of those pokes that suffers most from 4 move slot syndrome. Also this set is way less bulky and is therefore more prone to getting revenge killed by priority attacks.
As was predicted, Heatran is absolutely demolishing teams right now. So here’s a mon I have been using lately to handle it:
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Recover
- Toxic / Discharge / Tri Attack / Foul Play
[EVs ensure you live Flash Cannon into Corkscrew Crash after Stealth Rock and two Hydro Pumps from pre-transformation Ash-Gren, while escaping the 2OHKO from Mega Mawile's Play Rough and Band Hoopa's Hyperspace Fury] [Trace is obvious for walling non-Toxic Heatran but is pretty clutch in other circumstances too (Regen users, Lando-T, Stealth Rock Mega Diancie (hilarious, since you bounce hazards back, priceless in Mega Sab-Stall) and ability-scouting in general]
Pros
1. It fits pretty well in Balance and Stall (as long as you have Heal Bell Chansey/Clefable in your Stall team)
2. Blanket checks a lot
3. Great at spreading status/chipping away foe’s health
Cons
1. Extremely weak to Toxic
2. Weak to Knock Off
3. Passive in some circumstances and often setup fodder in those (this set is also Spikes fodder for Ferrothorn)
4. Slight 4MSS
As long as you patch up these weaknesses (Haze Pex / Heat Wave/Fightinium Torn-T) , Porygon2 can be pretty clutch.
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Recover
- Toxic / Discharge / Tri Attack / Foul Play
[EVs ensure you live Flash Cannon into Corkscrew Crash after Stealth Rock and two Hydro Pumps from pre-transformation Ash-Gren, while escaping the 2OHKO from Mega Mawile's Play Rough and Band Hoopa's Hyperspace Fury] [Trace is obvious for walling non-Toxic Heatran but is pretty clutch in other circumstances too (Regen users, Lando-T, Stealth Rock Mega Diancie (hilarious, since you bounce hazards back, priceless in Mega Sab-Stall) and ability-scouting in general]
Pros
1. It fits pretty well in Balance and Stall (as long as you have Heal Bell Chansey/Clefable in your Stall team)
2. Blanket checks a lot
3. Great at spreading status/chipping away foe’s health
Cons
1. Extremely weak to Toxic
2. Weak to Knock Off
3. Passive in some circumstances and often setup fodder in those (this set is also Spikes fodder for Ferrothorn)
4. Slight 4MSS
As long as you patch up these weaknesses (Haze Pex / Heat Wave/Fightinium Torn-T) , Porygon2 can be pretty clutch.
Last edited:
I wanted to start an anti-metagame discussion- I think the best way to start this is through sharing my team. Only the pivots on this team are strictly OU, and every member of this team arguably all fill niches in the metagame which I think would be valuable to this discussion.
Fck Fairies (Toxicroak): Essentially, specs Ash Greninja is one of the most terrifying threats in OU period. Toxicroak walls him completely with AV, dry skin and EVs invested in HP and attack (will do an EV breakdown later). Switch him in on AG attempting to revenge kill with water shrunken and hit back with drain punch. Toxicroak also has brilliant matchups against most rain teams and Tapu Bulu (In fact he is arguably brilliant against all Tapus given AV- even lele, the reason for this is explained later.) As Toxic spikes have become more common in this generation given the staple of Toxapex, having a poison type has become increasingly attractive. Drain punch makes him a good way to deal with mega/regular T-tar, another reason which makes me question why how is he not even OU.
Morover, Ice punch 2HKOs Lando T (even after intimidate) which is important because of how common Lando/zygarde and other ground types are for toxicroak. Gunk shot is a must, as is sucker punch which reliably kills mega alakazam, Another thing fck fairies does well is threaten heatran. AV guarantees he will live a magma storm or earth power and drain punch recovers his health afterwards. 99% of the time, the opposing player assumes you will swap out and will take the chance to put up rocks. Their mistake. Another mon which Fck Fairies does well against is belly dance Azumaril- a right pain if you aren't prepared for him. Fairies in general do poorly (like Clefable) hence the name, but do be careful of misreading Tapu Lele.
EV breakdown: HP 198, ATT 248+, SPD 8, SPE 56
Bird Jesus (Mega Pidgeot.) This is my designated lead and hurricane spammer in one. A timid nature and max investment into Speed and SPA give it the important speed of 375- something extremely important. Whilst outsped by leads like tapu koko and aerodactyl, bird jesus is outsped by scarfed lando-t. Given how common a lead of lando-t is (especially since most players turn 1 resort for U-turn), if you pit him against bird jesus, you can scout which item he is holding. U-turn turn 1 is the standard play- if lando t is scarfed and uses stone edge, you can revenge kill easily, if he uses U-turn you can prepare in the future accordingly for that threat. If you outspeed, you can at least see if he is rocky helmet or leftovers- a safe switch in is usually rotom wash. On bird jesus I pack heatwave (for ferrothorn and other pesky grass or steel types such as Kartana- he will also live scarfed Kartana's sacred sword), hurricane for spam, and a reliable way to kill mega venusaur, U-turn for momentum, and defog. (Rocks hurt this team a lot despite bird jesus being the only one who takes any significant damage from it- this is because to get the best out of this team, you will need to make lots of reads, be comfortable pivoting out and taking risks.) mega pidgeot is also a solid switch in for jirachi (heatwave and U-turn are all nice options), and again you can use him to scout out whether jirachi is scarfed. Bird jesus is also my favourite way to deal with mega medicham, gallade and other pesky fighting types.
Xbox (rotom wash) this is my go-to if I want to burn something. Max SpD and HP investment, with it being speed crept to allow other rotoms to outspeed it. (A common situation is two opposing rotom washs volt switching on each other- he can take a volt switch fine, and I like the strategic benefits of a slow pivot.) Neither heatran, any of the Charizards or lando T enjoy a hydro pump (with no investment) to the face. Generally xbox is a reliable switch in for most things in the metagame. Slap on a sitrus berry (usually my go-to switch in for a Z move- so regaining health back is crucial.) The other role played by Xbox is that he is my other defogger (normally is my primary one, and Bird jesus is an extra contingency- rocks/hazard control are the best way to counter this team.)
Pulling machine (magnezone) This is probably a staple to most anti-meta teams- since the release of magnet pull, magnezone has been fulfilling the same niche- trap and kill skarmory. However, he has other roles to play in this team. Firstly, outside of rain, he destroys ferrothorn. Celesteela doesn't do much better (unless packing Firium Z), and doesn't appreciate him (especially when it is stall/leech seed celesteela.) The other main purpose of magnezone is to kill Toxapex, something which is a right pain to any team. I use hp fire, volt switch, t-bolt and flash cannon on this mon, and invest in HP, SPA and Speed (sped crept to outspeed skarmory- take the EVs from HP) and slap on specs. A common situation is when Magnezone is switched in to take a toxic or a scald from Toxapex and looks to pivot out with volt switch. That is the obvious play. 9 times out of 10, the other player will hard swap out into lando t. That's when you make the ballsy play and hit him with flash cannon on the switch. Depending on EV investment on the opposing mon, its a safe bet that it will do around 70-80%. After that, hard swap yourself out into rotom- used best when the opponent is scarfed lando.
Another purpose of magnezone is that specs volt switch hurts, a lot, even when resisted, so once you have removed lando-t, feel free to spam volt switch with rotom and magnezone and chip your opponent down for your cleaners. Moreover, the ability to punch holes in magearna, mega mawile and mega scizor is also pretty cool (although AV magearna is bulky as hell.) Magnezone also is used to slaughter alolan ninetales, even with aurora veil up.
Big Sexy (Mamoswine.) This, like magnezone is well known to be another staple on anti meta teams. I actually got the idea of using this mon from my old VGC team where I used it on a trick room team with Mega Abomasnow, Alolan Marowak and Mimikyu. Ground and ice are especially good stabs to have in an OU metagame full of things with a 4 times weakness to them.
Earthquake is a given, as is ice shard. Ice shard makes mamo a great cleaner (not its only purpose though.) Knock off (for chansey and other pesky eviolite abusers) and stealth rock (to give Charizard Y and Volcarona a harder time) finishes off this set. However, the most important part of this mon is its item- focus sash. This is my usual get-out-of-jail-free card if I had let something scary set up. For example Mega Charizard X dancing up can be terrifying given its wallbreaking power. That's when you use Mamoswine to suck up the flare blitz, live and kill him with EQ. This is the main reason I put defog on both rotom and bird jesus- mamoswine can only feasible use ice shard if his sash is broken given his low speed.
Big Lobster (Crawdaunt.) I'm really surprised he isn't OU given my (wholly unbiased) opinion that he is the greatest cleaner in OU. STAB boosted aqua jet with adaptability and a choice band will reliably clean most of the tier- special mentions to lando t, Charizards, volcarona, victini, blacephon, gliscor, excadrill (you get the picture.) Knock off is equally as scary and will probably kill most of the tier on the switch. Reverse him especially for chansey and toxapex (depending on EVs, knock off can kill.) Superpower and crabhammer round up the set, but knock off and aqua jet are all you really need. I've sped crept my one to outrun heatran, although most of the time, if the opponent sees this scary MOFO, they tend to yeet out and just forfeit. It's dark typing helps with scarfed or specs lele, given the opportunity to save toxicroak from being obliterated by a terrain boosted psychic/shock
Weaknesses of this team:
It's very Gen 4 reminiscent (obviously bird jesus was god awful then given no mega form), given the mons and no Z move but a flaw of this team is that it simply lacks any fairy type coverage which makes mega sableye a threat. status also sucks for this team given that there are no clerics available. A burn on mamo or crawdaunt can easily end your game. Charizard Y is another big threat- there are no safe switchins for him- rotom wash can't survive 2 solarbeams, and everything else doesn't really like a sun boosted fire blast. The only reliable way to deal with it is to get rocks up from mamo and to revenge kill him. Hawlucha is also not liked, but he is not the most common, and you can use mamo to partially deal with him. The same applies with mega lopunny (a major pain in the ass) and Kyurem black (a combination of toxicroak and mamo/crawdaunt to clean is usually my answer for them.)
Another weakness of this team is tight interdependence on others to cover weaknesses- this is like a monotype team I(particularly a steel one) in that once you break one link, it is very easy to exploit individual weaknesses in this team. I don't also particularly like stall matchups (who does) and a lack of a taunt user/designated stallbreaker does show (although the meta game has shifted away from stall IMO- and its an environment where big lobster does shine if you keep him status free.) A lack of a sweeper in the team does also limit it, but the lack of a single 'win con' is the team's ultimate strength- no one mon is more important than another in this team, which makes it truly terrifying when used appropriately.
Strengths:
Players using 'meta' picks like lando t, ash greninja, tapu koko, heatran, toxapex and kartana. Garchomp does badly, although I haven't seen him used for a wee while now. Essentially this team has an answer for virtually every mon in the tier and there aren't too many situations where there is an 'unwinnable matchup.' The team does well against the Tapus as a whole and isn't fazed by weather wars (gen 5 throwback.) nor does it get swept by common sweepers. This team won't suit everyone and does needs a trainer whose playstyle is fast-paced, likes pivots, and isn't afraid of making a bold read. Your ideal matchup is probably hyper offence (given how easily banded big lobster can clean late-game)
Feel free to let me know what yous think about this as a start to anti-meta teams (and if I have opened up a whole new can of worms then my day is complete XD)- I've also probably missed something in the team. Let me know if you want EV breakdowns as well but tbh only fck fairies has anything particularly non standard.
JoBH
Fck Fairies (Toxicroak): Essentially, specs Ash Greninja is one of the most terrifying threats in OU period. Toxicroak walls him completely with AV, dry skin and EVs invested in HP and attack (will do an EV breakdown later). Switch him in on AG attempting to revenge kill with water shrunken and hit back with drain punch. Toxicroak also has brilliant matchups against most rain teams and Tapu Bulu (In fact he is arguably brilliant against all Tapus given AV- even lele, the reason for this is explained later.) As Toxic spikes have become more common in this generation given the staple of Toxapex, having a poison type has become increasingly attractive. Drain punch makes him a good way to deal with mega/regular T-tar, another reason which makes me question why how is he not even OU.
Morover, Ice punch 2HKOs Lando T (even after intimidate) which is important because of how common Lando/zygarde and other ground types are for toxicroak. Gunk shot is a must, as is sucker punch which reliably kills mega alakazam, Another thing fck fairies does well is threaten heatran. AV guarantees he will live a magma storm or earth power and drain punch recovers his health afterwards. 99% of the time, the opposing player assumes you will swap out and will take the chance to put up rocks. Their mistake. Another mon which Fck Fairies does well against is belly dance Azumaril- a right pain if you aren't prepared for him. Fairies in general do poorly (like Clefable) hence the name, but do be careful of misreading Tapu Lele.
EV breakdown: HP 198, ATT 248+, SPD 8, SPE 56
Bird Jesus (Mega Pidgeot.) This is my designated lead and hurricane spammer in one. A timid nature and max investment into Speed and SPA give it the important speed of 375- something extremely important. Whilst outsped by leads like tapu koko and aerodactyl, bird jesus is outsped by scarfed lando-t. Given how common a lead of lando-t is (especially since most players turn 1 resort for U-turn), if you pit him against bird jesus, you can scout which item he is holding. U-turn turn 1 is the standard play- if lando t is scarfed and uses stone edge, you can revenge kill easily, if he uses U-turn you can prepare in the future accordingly for that threat. If you outspeed, you can at least see if he is rocky helmet or leftovers- a safe switch in is usually rotom wash. On bird jesus I pack heatwave (for ferrothorn and other pesky grass or steel types such as Kartana- he will also live scarfed Kartana's sacred sword), hurricane for spam, and a reliable way to kill mega venusaur, U-turn for momentum, and defog. (Rocks hurt this team a lot despite bird jesus being the only one who takes any significant damage from it- this is because to get the best out of this team, you will need to make lots of reads, be comfortable pivoting out and taking risks.) mega pidgeot is also a solid switch in for jirachi (heatwave and U-turn are all nice options), and again you can use him to scout out whether jirachi is scarfed. Bird jesus is also my favourite way to deal with mega medicham, gallade and other pesky fighting types.
Xbox (rotom wash) this is my go-to if I want to burn something. Max SpD and HP investment, with it being speed crept to allow other rotoms to outspeed it. (A common situation is two opposing rotom washs volt switching on each other- he can take a volt switch fine, and I like the strategic benefits of a slow pivot.) Neither heatran, any of the Charizards or lando T enjoy a hydro pump (with no investment) to the face. Generally xbox is a reliable switch in for most things in the metagame. Slap on a sitrus berry (usually my go-to switch in for a Z move- so regaining health back is crucial.) The other role played by Xbox is that he is my other defogger (normally is my primary one, and Bird jesus is an extra contingency- rocks/hazard control are the best way to counter this team.)
Pulling machine (magnezone) This is probably a staple to most anti-meta teams- since the release of magnet pull, magnezone has been fulfilling the same niche- trap and kill skarmory. However, he has other roles to play in this team. Firstly, outside of rain, he destroys ferrothorn. Celesteela doesn't do much better (unless packing Firium Z), and doesn't appreciate him (especially when it is stall/leech seed celesteela.) The other main purpose of magnezone is to kill Toxapex, something which is a right pain to any team. I use hp fire, volt switch, t-bolt and flash cannon on this mon, and invest in HP, SPA and Speed (sped crept to outspeed skarmory- take the EVs from HP) and slap on specs. A common situation is when Magnezone is switched in to take a toxic or a scald from Toxapex and looks to pivot out with volt switch. That is the obvious play. 9 times out of 10, the other player will hard swap out into lando t. That's when you make the ballsy play and hit him with flash cannon on the switch. Depending on EV investment on the opposing mon, its a safe bet that it will do around 70-80%. After that, hard swap yourself out into rotom- used best when the opponent is scarfed lando.
Another purpose of magnezone is that specs volt switch hurts, a lot, even when resisted, so once you have removed lando-t, feel free to spam volt switch with rotom and magnezone and chip your opponent down for your cleaners. Moreover, the ability to punch holes in magearna, mega mawile and mega scizor is also pretty cool (although AV magearna is bulky as hell.) Magnezone also is used to slaughter alolan ninetales, even with aurora veil up.
Big Sexy (Mamoswine.) This, like magnezone is well known to be another staple on anti meta teams. I actually got the idea of using this mon from my old VGC team where I used it on a trick room team with Mega Abomasnow, Alolan Marowak and Mimikyu. Ground and ice are especially good stabs to have in an OU metagame full of things with a 4 times weakness to them.
Earthquake is a given, as is ice shard. Ice shard makes mamo a great cleaner (not its only purpose though.) Knock off (for chansey and other pesky eviolite abusers) and stealth rock (to give Charizard Y and Volcarona a harder time) finishes off this set. However, the most important part of this mon is its item- focus sash. This is my usual get-out-of-jail-free card if I had let something scary set up. For example Mega Charizard X dancing up can be terrifying given its wallbreaking power. That's when you use Mamoswine to suck up the flare blitz, live and kill him with EQ. This is the main reason I put defog on both rotom and bird jesus- mamoswine can only feasible use ice shard if his sash is broken given his low speed.
Big Lobster (Crawdaunt.) I'm really surprised he isn't OU given my (wholly unbiased) opinion that he is the greatest cleaner in OU. STAB boosted aqua jet with adaptability and a choice band will reliably clean most of the tier- special mentions to lando t, Charizards, volcarona, victini, blacephon, gliscor, excadrill (you get the picture.) Knock off is equally as scary and will probably kill most of the tier on the switch. Reverse him especially for chansey and toxapex (depending on EVs, knock off can kill.) Superpower and crabhammer round up the set, but knock off and aqua jet are all you really need. I've sped crept my one to outrun heatran, although most of the time, if the opponent sees this scary MOFO, they tend to yeet out and just forfeit. It's dark typing helps with scarfed or specs lele, given the opportunity to save toxicroak from being obliterated by a terrain boosted psychic/shock
Weaknesses of this team:
It's very Gen 4 reminiscent (obviously bird jesus was god awful then given no mega form), given the mons and no Z move but a flaw of this team is that it simply lacks any fairy type coverage which makes mega sableye a threat. status also sucks for this team given that there are no clerics available. A burn on mamo or crawdaunt can easily end your game. Charizard Y is another big threat- there are no safe switchins for him- rotom wash can't survive 2 solarbeams, and everything else doesn't really like a sun boosted fire blast. The only reliable way to deal with it is to get rocks up from mamo and to revenge kill him. Hawlucha is also not liked, but he is not the most common, and you can use mamo to partially deal with him. The same applies with mega lopunny (a major pain in the ass) and Kyurem black (a combination of toxicroak and mamo/crawdaunt to clean is usually my answer for them.)
Another weakness of this team is tight interdependence on others to cover weaknesses- this is like a monotype team I(particularly a steel one) in that once you break one link, it is very easy to exploit individual weaknesses in this team. I don't also particularly like stall matchups (who does) and a lack of a taunt user/designated stallbreaker does show (although the meta game has shifted away from stall IMO- and its an environment where big lobster does shine if you keep him status free.) A lack of a sweeper in the team does also limit it, but the lack of a single 'win con' is the team's ultimate strength- no one mon is more important than another in this team, which makes it truly terrifying when used appropriately.
Strengths:
Players using 'meta' picks like lando t, ash greninja, tapu koko, heatran, toxapex and kartana. Garchomp does badly, although I haven't seen him used for a wee while now. Essentially this team has an answer for virtually every mon in the tier and there aren't too many situations where there is an 'unwinnable matchup.' The team does well against the Tapus as a whole and isn't fazed by weather wars (gen 5 throwback.) nor does it get swept by common sweepers. This team won't suit everyone and does needs a trainer whose playstyle is fast-paced, likes pivots, and isn't afraid of making a bold read. Your ideal matchup is probably hyper offence (given how easily banded big lobster can clean late-game)
Feel free to let me know what yous think about this as a start to anti-meta teams (and if I have opened up a whole new can of worms then my day is complete XD)- I've also probably missed something in the team. Let me know if you want EV breakdowns as well but tbh only fck fairies has anything particularly non standard.
JoBH
Last edited:
Okay.
I really like anti-meta, and I think it's fun to try against random people. But this...
I mean, I like toxicroak and really enjoy playing with it casually and competitively but this just doesn't make a lot of sense. Ash gren is really prominent, and dry skin croak does do a pretty good job at countering it, but poison-fighting typing is really trash. Pex, lando-t, tornadus-t, magearna and skar are just a small group of mon croak can't touch without specific sets that take much-needed EVs away from stats like HP and give them to ATK, while sometimes you're already at max ATK. Mamo used to be a god before gen 6 without faries to get rid of dragons like hydriegon and dragonite, but it's kinda just obsolete to other mon now like tapus and clef. Also, for some reason, ultra beasts have kinda rid the meta of ice types (celasteela, kart, staka, blacephalon, buzzwole.)
But there are definitely some high points on this team.
Mega Pidgeot is super strong and a reliable mega with no-guard hurricane, u-turn, and reliable recovery in roost. Crawdunt is an anti-meta pick that I appreciate, because I actually use it. Focus sash+ddance+adaptability is the set I prefer, and it just tears through teams with doubly STAB boosted (thanks to adaptability) knock off and liquidation, with priority in aqua jet for sashed mon.
So I think an anti-meta team is cool, let us know about the EV spreads.
I really like anti-meta, and I think it's fun to try against random people. But this...
I mean, I like toxicroak and really enjoy playing with it casually and competitively but this just doesn't make a lot of sense. Ash gren is really prominent, and dry skin croak does do a pretty good job at countering it, but poison-fighting typing is really trash. Pex, lando-t, tornadus-t, magearna and skar are just a small group of mon croak can't touch without specific sets that take much-needed EVs away from stats like HP and give them to ATK, while sometimes you're already at max ATK. Mamo used to be a god before gen 6 without faries to get rid of dragons like hydriegon and dragonite, but it's kinda just obsolete to other mon now like tapus and clef. Also, for some reason, ultra beasts have kinda rid the meta of ice types (celasteela, kart, staka, blacephalon, buzzwole.)
But there are definitely some high points on this team.
Mega Pidgeot is super strong and a reliable mega with no-guard hurricane, u-turn, and reliable recovery in roost. Crawdunt is an anti-meta pick that I appreciate, because I actually use it. Focus sash+ddance+adaptability is the set I prefer, and it just tears through teams with doubly STAB boosted (thanks to adaptability) knock off and liquidation, with priority in aqua jet for sashed mon.
So I think an anti-meta team is cool, let us know about the EV spreads.
I agree with some of your critique, but a couple points seem off. Mamoswine is still a solid, albeit uncommon, pick. It's kept up with power creep and has decent utility in rocks and priority. Mega pidgey is not exactly what I'd call 'super strong.' lack of a boosting item, rocks weakness, and frailty all add up to make it a pretty bad pokemon in ou. And lastly, crawdaunt is typically a cleaner and/or breaker, and I don't know how a sash helps here. If you're cleaning it's likely hazards are up, and if you're breaking you'd rather have fire off 1 solid banded/lorbed hit and switch out than try to set up a ddance that leaves you unable to 2HKO mons like tang and bulu.
I use the sash on crawdaunt to avoid having to force a switch to set up ddance. I really just find mamo not that good because of the frequent usage of bulky mons that resist it. I definitely see your points though, but for the sake of countering dragons, (which was the reason I mentioned mamo in my response) I find fairies far more reliable. Also, about crawdaunt, when I do use it,(which frankly, isn't a lot) I think the boost in speed is something crawduant needs to utilize it's power. But, the sets you use are totally chosen by you, and crawdaunt still of course isn't part of ou
Mod Edit: Please for the love of God only make one post at a time and edit your response if you have anything to add.
Last edited by a moderator:
The only mon that resists mamo's dual stab is rotom.Also with sash you are giving up on the only reason to use crawdaunt:its insane breaking power that's why its best set is cb or life orb
Anyone else feel like the grassy, electric and psychic terrains are borderline broken? They basically give you and any of your pokes who are grounded a free prepatch power jem boost. Grassy terrain gives you a stackable leftovers for 4 turns (more if you're holding the extender) and a slighty nerfed shucca berry. Electric terrain basically gives you and your opponent insomnia which benefits the player running the terrain since they already have a strat built around the team. Psychic terrain destroys priority users which would otherwise be perfect counters to Tapu lele.
Also, I feel that there's a huge difference between these pokes and weather setters as weather setters outside of tyranitar are complete trash and these 3 pokes still have decent stats. When you combine their decent stats and ability, they become incredibly powerful wall breakers on there own and are still able to support their team as well
Also, I feel that there's a huge difference between these pokes and weather setters as weather setters outside of tyranitar are complete trash and these 3 pokes still have decent stats. When you combine their decent stats and ability, they become incredibly powerful wall breakers on there own and are still able to support their team as well
I don't think they're borderline broken at all, let alone broken. Grassy Terrain also heals the opponent's Pokemon, and Electric Terrain isn't as useful since sleep isn't that popular of a status condition when Toxic is the preferred one. Psychic Terrain's priority negation is a bit annoying, but like you said all of them only last for 5 turns, and Terrain Extender is very niche.
I don’t think they’re broken either, but they are absolutely powerful. I’d say the defining trait is the power boost, which makes all of them deadly breakers/sweepers before items are taken into account.
I’d like to see more widespread terrain abilities in future gens, since terrains are definitely not powerful enough to run in moveslots without a dedicated strategy built around them, but they are powerful and add an interesting wrinkle.
I agree, they may not be broken, but they are pretty damn powerful.
Honestly though? If we're gonna talk about stuff being powerful, I believe that Psychic Terrain is the best terrain by far. Tapu Lele + Mega Alakazam core is so amazing when their Psychic moves are boosted even more, and they can't be stopped by priority (though you'll probably wanna run Choice Specs Lele in this core).
May as well ask my own question: Do you guys think Rotom-W will get back its dominance from its BW and XY days? I believe that it's so much better with Zygarde core and can probably tag along the Heatran + Tapu Bulu core to make it even stronger.
Last edited:
NuttyRabbit
Banned deucer.
I personally think Rotom-W is a lot stronger as a pick right now than it has ever been this generation . It likely will not hit the levels of dominance it had in BW and XY because of general powercreep though , but it is still a really nice pick right now. I wonder if Grassium Tran usage will rise in response to Rotom rising in usage.
Although he definitely got better, I don't think Rotom will ever be as strong as he was before unless he gets a reliable form of recovery. Everything just hits so much harder now thanks to mega evolutions and the introduction of z moves. A base 105 sp atk won't be doing as much as it used to and if you want to give it a z move or specs, there are way better pokes out there for the job. It is really good at what it does though
Last edited:
Definitely better than during Zygarde era, but don't think it'll quite rebound to its previous days like BW. Rotom-W had a lot more going for it in earlier metas I feel and was a little less restricted in its moveslots (Defog is hard to sandwich into a set since Rotom-W really wants all four of its moves, and then there's Thunder Wave and / or Will-O-Wisp). I definitely think it's in the upswing and has a lot of great perks (pinch berries are really nice on Rotom-W and the option of Z Crystals is a nice tech every now and then).
- Status