Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[xapx]

Ew, Vr
I'd argue that regular Latios is pretty nice right now, specifically this set:


Latios @ Waterium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Surf
- Recover
- Defog

It works really nice on bulky offences, working both in a defensive and offensive core.

Latios has a nice typing allowing it to switch in on current common mons such as Heatran, Toxapex, Gliscor, Tangrowth, Zapdos* and Rotom-W* (*can paralysis), as well as being a nice quick check to a lot of the tiers common choiced locked moves, in being able to switch in to Kokos Tbolt, Karts Swords, Greninja Water stab, Lando Eq, though it is to be noted that they can predict you in turn and ko you, however the options there. While not only providing for for the defensive core, it also works as a great defoger currently as it can come in on common hazard setters in Heatran, Gliscor and Toxapex for near free to remove hazards, while pressuring Rocks LandoT through revenging and can somewhat lure in Tyranitar Mega* (Surf into Hydro Vortex does 86.1min to Ttar Mega, so 98.6 after rocks, Surf into regular Ttar then Hydo Vortex on the Mega does 91.3min, Hydro Vortex in to regular Ttar then into Surf does 96min. So either Mega Ttar is picked off after Rocks damage, or is left severely weakened with no Rocks).

Latios also contributes nicely to the teams offence as well, luring both Heatran and Tyranitar for the teams game plan, while its speed and attack allow it to work also as a revenge killer for anything under its speed. Slower bulkier mons also have a hard time wearing Latios down too, allowing Latios to slowly dish out damage throughout the game, weakening answers such as Fini, Magearna and Spdef Bulu, applying pressure well throughout the match.

I'm not sure if the meta has shifted to make Latios good, or just that it has been forgotten about, however Toxapex, Heatran and Gliscors current high usage work only for Latios's benefit, so I'd argue Latios is as viable as most of the mons in B-, so Latios (Regular) to B-

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-856178562
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-856127925
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-856105064
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-856061177

Short answer, but I really disagree Latios being good as B- mons. Take a look at this calc:

252 SpA Latios Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 124-146 (31.2 - 36.7%) -- 66.4% chance to 3HKO

This does pitiful damage, and Latios is honestly a horrible lure for one of its biggest checks. Not to mention both this and its Mega forme are at a new low, since Magearna and Mega Alakazam is common as hell and they practically wall this set.

As for comparing this to B- rank, that's just unbelievable. Amoonguss is actually really good in the meta rn, Zard Y is a fearsome wallbreaker, Rachi is a decent scarfer/spdef wall esp for psychic spam, Keldeo has a decent niche in breaking past Pex with CM + Taunt, Manaphy is a niche screens abuser and rain abuser, Pyukumuku and Quagsire are the only Unaware users aside from Clef, and Slowbro and its Mega forme are amazing physical walls, stopping Pokemon like Mega Medicham and Mega Lopunny while maining offensive presence. Latios is horrible compared to all these Pokemon, and the set you mentioned is just quite unviable.

You honestly do more damage with uninvested Z-Quake:
0 Atk Latios Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 218-258 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I say the Eon twins should drop to C, having practically no usage in tours and generally outclassed in any roles. Offensive Scarf Latias is outclassed by Jirachi as a healing wish user, and Scarf Defog is horrible, ruining your momentum. Offensive CM Latios is walled by a bunch of stuff like Celesteela and Magearna, and is generally a waste of a Z-Move slot and why are you using Defog on Latios when you have a bunch of new Defoggers like TornT, LandoT, or Gliscor?

E: ok dang this wasn't short at all

 

[Counting Sheep]

Short answer, but I really disagree Latios being good as B- mons. Take a look at this calc:

252 SpA Latios Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 124-146 (31.2 - 36.7%) -- 66.4% chance to 3HKO

This does pitiful damage, and Latios is honestly a horrible lure for one of its biggest checks. Not to mention both this and its Mega forme are at a new low, since Magearna and Mega Alakazam is common as hell and they practically wall this set.

As for comparing this to B- rank, that's just unbelievable. Amoonguss is actually really good in the meta rn, Zard Y is a fearsome wallbreaker, Rachi is a decent scarfer/spdef wall esp for psychic spam, Keldeo has a decent niche in breaking past Pex with CM + Taunt, Manaphy is a niche screens abuser and rain abuser, Pyukumuku and Quagsire are the only Unaware users aside from Clef, and Slowbro and its Mega forme are amazing physical walls, stopping Pokemon like Mega Medicham and Mega Lopunny while maining offensive presence. Latios is horrible compared to all these Pokemon, and the set you mentioned is just quite unviable.

You honestly do more damage with uninvested Z-Quake:
0 Atk Latios Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 218-258 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I say the Eon twins should drop to C, having practically no usage in tours and generally outclassed in any roles. Offensive Scarf Latias is outclassed by Jirachi as a healing wish user, and Scarf Defog is horrible, ruining your momentum. Offensive CM Latios is walled by a bunch of stuff like Celesteela and Magearna, and is generally a waste of a Z-Move slot and why are you using Defog on Latios when you have a bunch of new Defoggers like TornT, LandoT, or Gliscor?

E: ok dang this wasn't short at all

Ye thats my bad for forgetting AV Tyranitar. Latios doesn't lure that set at all. Its more of a Heatran lure, however I was picking off quite a few Ttars on ladder so I bopped it in the post. However while AV seems to be its second most popular set last month, behind band at 30%ish usage, Tyranitar as a whole has seemed to be dropping in usage over the past few months, from around 40th to now near 50th, with Mega Ttar over taking in usage.

I also don't believe thats grounds enough for it not to be along the lines of viable as the mons of B- tho. While I agree Jirachi is amazing, I struggle to build a team without it, and Latios is nowhere near Manaphy as well imo, with Toxapex and Tank Chomp usage rising M.ZardY is suffering, and Spdef Bulu, Zmove Torn and Psychic spam being all the range hurts Keldeo far more than Av Ttar hurts Latios. I dont know enough about Amoonguss now, but psychic spam, and the seeming rise of M.Medicham cant help.

 

[Jordy]

I agree with dropping Latios, but I feel Latias should stay due to Healing Wish. The utility it provides is alot more valuable then what Latios can. As most of you probably know, Healing Wish support can be valuable on many builds, varying from Hyper Offense to Balance. It gives either walls a free full recovery aside from PP or gives your potential wincon a second shot at winning the match. Latias is outclassed by Jirachi though, right? As a healing wish user, yes. But Jirachi doesn't fit on every team and cannot directly switch into Heatran at all. Latias can fit on builds that require healing wish support and need a backup Heatran answer all in 1 slot. Another factor that makes Latias worth keeping at it's current rank is it's superior bulk. It may not be much of an improvement, but its pretty nice to have 130 base spdef to pivot in on Heatran and Washtom more often then Latias. However, both are decently outclassed in any other roll and like I said, Latios needs to drop, but Latias should stay due to healing wish and it's superior bulk.

Latias fails to reliably do literally anything you stated. Latias has not been used on hyper offense nor balance teams since before USM was even released. "But Jirachi doesn't fit on every team and cannot directly switch into Heatran at all." Latias fits on even less teams than Jirachi, and it's not capable of switching into Heatran consistently, as it has no way to force it out or recover enough HP to PP stall Heatran. To add onto that, I believe Jirachi's U-turn is actually better in this matchup against Heatran (of course this varies heavily from situation to situation), because Jirachi can manage to keep up momentum without having to sack itself. Furthermore, the fact that Latias can switch into Rotom-W slightly more comfortable doesn't matter much when it just gets taken advantage by Volt Switch every time it switches in.

To add onto what I said, Latias can't reliably revenge kill Kartana, unlike Latios, which is probably 1 of the very few reasons you'd use a Choice Scarf Lati to begin with. (this isn't to say Latios is much/any better)

tl;dr: Latias is just as bad as Latios and should be ranked alongside it.

→ C

 

[Sickist]

Latias fails to reliably do literally anything you stated. Latias has not been used on hyper offense nor balance teams since before USM was even released. "But Jirachi doesn't fit on every team and cannot directly switch into Heatran at all." Latias fits on even less teams than Jirachi, and it's not capable of switching into Heatran consistently, as it has no way to force it out or recover enough HP to PP stall Heatran. To add onto that, I believe Jirachi's U-turn is actually better in this matchup against Heatran (of course this varies heavily from situation to situation), because Jirachi can manage to keep up momentum without having to sack itself. Furthermore, the fact that Latias can switch into Rotom-W slightly more comfortable doesn't matter much when it just gets taken advantage by Volt Switch every time it switches in.

To add onto what I said, Latias can't reliably revenge kill Kartana, unlike Latios, which is probably 1 of the very few reasons you'd use a Choice Scarf Lati to begin with. (this isn't to say Latios is much/any better)

tl;dr: Latias is just as bad as Latios and should be ranked alongside it.

→ C

True, I didn't even think about the U-turn thing. I'm going to delete my post cuz my post was actually brainless now that I think about it.

 

[Finchinator]

That’s enough in the regular Lati twins anyhow; we will vote on them to drop unless something changes and for a seemingly irrelevant duo, it isn’t worth beating the dead horse anymore.

So let’s discuss more relevant things such as Kommo-O things ranked above C+ to start.

 

[blank]

on the lower ranks:

i agree that both lati twins should drop. regular latias doesn't really do anything except act as a utility scarfer on some offenses, which it doesn't really do that well or anything, so i think it can drop to C or C-. regular latios is just... not a good offensive threat in 2019. actually it really hasn't done anything significant since p2's litios in SPL 8. i think it can drop as well, though i think it's fair to have it a subrank above latias (so maybe latios in C and latias in C-).

agree with the mega aggron rise that (i think) was proposed awhile ago. mon's good on stall. i do think avalugg can drop given zygarde's departure from the tier.. not really doing much significant now, tbh, but not insignificant enough to be totally unranked. i also think qwilfish can drop. this thing has never seen relevant usage afaik, and most of it's viability has been theorymonning by a certain lecherous advocate. i think it's fine enough to stay in C-, but rain's good options are already pretty cemented, and it's hard to justify qwilfish as one of these.

i disagree with the post way back about unranking a bunch of super niche C- pokemon. while the playstyles these pokemon work in have generally fallen out of favor, the pokemon themselves still have somewhat of a niche. regarding something like shuckle, which is outclassed by ribombee and araquanid, i think you need to take a look at where it is ranked compared to those mons. it is already lower than them, and while the playstyle is niche, i think it's fair to keep it in C-, unless the other 2 drop.

i really agree with the clanger rise, though i'd personally go higher like C+/B-. it's a cool af mon on hyper offenses, and the defensive variant(s) clearly has merit given its usage awhile back in snake.

 

[Sickist]

Mega Sableye B+ -> B



The meta is not kind to Sableye at the moment. Magearna and Heatran usage is through the roof and Balance is at an all time height. Sableye struggles to find itself on any teams these days due to competing for the Mega slot on stall builds with Mega Aggron. Now I'm not saying it's horrible and that it should be dropped to C or unranked. It definitely still has a place in the tier, bouncing back hazards and acting as a hard counter to Mega Medicham. I just feel that it's definitely not as great as it used to be and should be dropped a subrank.

On another note I agree with a Kommo-o rise. Not gonna say anything about it because anything that could be said has already been said, so.

 

[5FingerMachPunch]

Alright well I actually forgot I was gonna make a post regarding noms I disagree with, but now that I look back there honestly aren't a lot of actual VR noms here that were made that I disagree with. A few of those have already been beaten to death, so I'm not even gonna talk about them, but before I get into the main nom I wanna address, I just wanna throw my support behind rising Kommo-o to C+. I actually nommed Kommo-o myself some pages back to C, and was pretty hesitant to nom it up further since I wasn't 100% sure whether C+ was good enough when I first made the post, but now I most definitely agree. I'm not gonna touch on it more since others above did that and I already did over a week ago, so go dig that post up I suppose (it's on page 76 if you care).

B- to B Disagree

This is another nom from ages ago that not a lot of people really commented on, and while Keld has generally gotten better overall from the metagame trends that are going in its favor, is it enough to really warrant Keld moving up? Arguable, but idts. I still think Keld is fine in B- and is on par with most other mons in that rank. That said, that doesn't make Keld any less threatening to most Balances running around atm, whether it's the imo better CM + Taunt set or the Specs set it has a field day vs a lot of teams in the meta that are running around, so I could probably be convinced otherwise, and it has nice defensive utility on top of that for an offensive mon. Really idk what else to say because my main reason for disagreeing is that I just can't see Keld as on par with B Rank mons more than I can see it on par with B- Rank mons.

I also wanna briefly mention the Gengar talk on the previous page, and while idc whether Gengar drops or not, I think making the notion to UR Gengar is honestly kinda ludicrous, especially before shit like Mimikyu and Shuckle and the fact that the reasoning for dropping Gar in the first place is kinda shaky. Now don't confuse this for me trying to compare Gengar to those mons because they all do entirely things, but while Gengar is mostly outclassed as a Ghost-type breaker by Blace, I really don't understand the posts on it after the nom, especially as I said the one saying that they think it should be UR. Gengar is definitely not on the same level as most shit that're UR or in C-. I think one think that's not being considered is that Gengar's speed tier is actually pretty nice in conjuction with Scarf as it let's Gengar reliably revenge kill Kartana, which is something else that Blace cannot claim to do, and while it is a pretty small niche thing to nitpick idt it should be something so quick to dismiss. Idt Specs is a good set nor should be used to consider Gengar's rank, so I won't touch on that set. As for Gengar's breaking set with LO (or Z-Move if you want), I think Hex Will-o is being slept on as it gets around a lot of problems that it has currently, letting it get around its switch-ins much more reliably and is probably Gengar's best set in the meta. That combo as well as having Focus Blast sets Gengar apart from Blace, and Gengar is relatively unexplored as a mon as it has lots of potential cool techs. Overall, as I said very early on in the post idc where Gengar goes, but idt Gengar was rightfully getting the justice it deserves and I don't want this misconception that Focus Blast is all Gengar has over Blace and that it's outclassed to the point it should be UR because that's just incorrect. I'm just gonna leave calcs below to show how terrifying Gengar can be to take on with Hex compared to Shadow Ball and end the post because I gotta get ready for work here soon.

calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 200-238 (50.3 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 125-148 (31.4 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 156-185 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and burn damage
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 97-114 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and burn damage

I can get more calcs later if it's really needed as there aren't a lot here but I really gotta get going now, also keep in mind the calcs with Shadow Ball NEED rocks to even achieve the 3HKO

Edit: just came back real quick because I noticed right after I posted that fsr there were 2 hide tags instead of one, but I keep fucking the post up more somehow I'm just gonna give up on trying to fix it cause it just won't fix fsr no matter what I do and I don't have the time for something so small so ig enjoy having 2 hide tags (for now) Mod edit: fixed

 

[lydian]

Couple controversial points, I know, but hey, they're my opinion and it feels reasonable to bring up:

to A+:
I think we can all agree Landorus-T is the worst S rank Pokémon at the moment. Heatran and Ash-Greninja's dominance are honestly unmatched I feel, and Landorus-T doesn't quite reach those levels of dominance and viability. But first, lets look at Landorus-T's individual sets: Choice Scarf, the ultimate role compression Pokémon that provides offensive presence, physical bulk, defog, a blistering speed tier, and everything in between. It's a flagship in BO and Balance but is it really as dominant as Ash-Greninja and Heatran are? I don't think so. Like sure, it's super easy to fit on teams and can cover exactly what that last slot needs to cover, but several Balance and BO structures are extremely successful without it, and I don't think it's relevant enough to make Landorus-T S rank on it's own, but well Landorus-T has other sets. Stealth Rock is a strong set, commonly seen in nowadays' BO alongside Magearna and Rotom-W, be it offensive variants or defensive variants this set is an outstanding rocker. But once again, is it S rank worthy? I don't think so. Once again Heatran and Ash-Greninja set the bar up high, not to mention Rotom-W being everywhere makes getting and keeping up rocks not as easy as it seems. It's a great set sure, but I don't find it exactly S rank worthy. There are other Landorus-T sets, but these are the main two, really. I don't think Suicide Lead has much merit to compete with Lead Excadrill let alone be S rank worthy. Looking at the bigger picture, I don't think the joined efforts of Choice Scarf and Stealth Rock sets are quite enough to make Landorus-T as dominant as an S rank should be. Not much has changed for Landorus-T in the current meta game, except for the fact of Rotom-W being pretty much a plague at this point, but I digress, I think the main issue here is that Landorus-T would feel much more adequate in A+ in my opinion, alongside the likes of Magearna and Toxapex as threats that are relevant and you should be mindful of, but not quite as dominant and imperative as Heatran and Ash-Greninja. Sure, Landorus-T still gets enormous amounts of usage, but usage isn't everything. Heatran for example, only is 6th in SPL usage stats as of weeks 1 to 3 (week 4 stats aren't up yet). You can notice a similar pattern with several other tiers too, Latias is a UU S rank but is also 6th. Same applies for Roserade and Zygarde-10% in RU, and Slowbro and Heliolisk in NU. Usage and viability only have so much correlation, and while Landorus-T's status as arguably the tier's main glue is notable, I don't think it's enough to compare it to the current S ranks. I don't think many people will agree with this, but well, worth sharing my thoughts.

to S:
I fully agree with The Hallows on this one, and I think Toxapex is too dominant of a force to be "only" in A+, like Hallows said, Tapu Lele is the only Pokémon that doesn't have to think twice before staying in on Toxapex and the fact that pretty much every team needs some sort of Toxapex abuser reflects that. I won't go too much in depth because I think The Hallows already did a wonderful job reasoning their thoughts.

to S-:

to S-:

to S-:
That's another proposal I had. If Landorus-T to A+ and Toxapex to S feels too drastic—which it probably is—I think bumping Toxapex (and probably Magearna too) alongside to Landorus-T and bringing back the S- rank could be a possible solution. All three kind of stand out from the current pool of A+ Pokémon as extremely viable and relevant but still not quite on the levels of Heatran and Ash-Greninja. This is my preferred solution, but I think it'd probably have even more backlash than the Landorus-T to A+ idea so I'm not sure. Regardless, might as well just bring this up, really.

to A+:
Mega Medicham is deadly at the current moment, having an actual speed tier as opposed to Mega Mawile helps a lot, and Mew and Clefable nearly vanishing after Zygarde's ban does it some favors (moreso the former than the latter). Tapu Koko being back in form is always nice cus now Thunder Punch is viable, and allowed it to get past Pokémon like Reuniclus and Slowbro, not to mention having an easier time with Celesteela. I think at the current point, Mega Medicham is nearly as strong of a Mega as Mawile and Alakazam, and should thus be placed in A+ alongside them. The only real annoyance is bulky Volcarona, but well, have yourself a good rocker and you should be gucci.

to B-:

to B-:

to B-:
All three of these feel a bit too high in B in my honest opinion. Alomomola only really has a place in stall, and having it be above Mega Aggron feels surely odd in my book. Gastrodon, while still fine in a team or two, is mostly a relic of the past I think fits a lot better in B-. And lastly, Mew's niche was really decreased after the inevitable Zygarde ban, while its mostly fine on stall, I think B is too high for it too.

to C:

to C-:
Sticky Web as a playstyle is quite subpar at the moment I feel. We haven't seen any of it this SPL and overall this playstyle really hasn't gotten many achievements as of late. While yeah, this type of playstyle is often better in the ladder, regular HO or even dual screens just feels a lot better and consistent right now, especially because both of these aren't the best at keeping their hazards up, in all honesty.

 

[Adapt or Die]

Couple recent noms I wanted to sound off on:

Kommo-O to C+: So much agree! I find myself throwing Kommo onto more and more teams as it is really unique in what it checks (name another mon that beats Ash-gren, glare-seed serp, blacephalon, heatran, and ferrothorn), and can just plain crush teams with belly drum or clang soul. Plus it's just plain cool.

Mega-sab to B: Agree I've been hating hard on mega-sab and mega-sab stall for a while, which I think for the first time in a long time is worse than alternative stall builds as I'm seeing a lot more Aggron and Vena stall.

Lando-T to A+: Disagree Still the most splashable mon in the game. Still annoyingly versatile. I'm not sure what really has gotten worse for it. I don't like to rely on usage areguments, but its usage is off the charts for a reason. Ash-Gren and Heatran being better isn't a reason to drop it.

Gastrodon to B-: Disagree I know there's more factors at play here, but I can't justify dropping one of the absolute best Mage and Tran counters in a Meta where those dominate.

Mew to B-: Agree Mew lost a major niche in bouncing status back onto zygarde.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That’s enough in the regular Lati twins anyhow; we will vote on them to drop unless something changes and for a seemingly irrelevant duo, it isn’t worth beating the dead horse anymore.

So let’s discuss more relevant things such as Kommo-O things ranked above C+ to start.

I could definitely see it going up seeing as how Most Clefable sets are running less physically bulky sets and magic guard over Unaware. I am seeing more Koko running Dazzling Gleam though

 

[Finchinator]

I could definitely see it going up seeing as how Most Clefable sets are running less physically bulky sets and magic guard over Unaware. I am seeing more Koko running Dazzling Gleam though

LO Clefable is a thing, but it is still far from the most common variant and no other Clefable are giving up Physical Defense investment. On top of that, Unaware has only consistently been used on stall for the longest time and stall is as common now as it was beforehand. I do not think that this is particularly relevant personally.

 

[shieldpoke]

Couple controversial points, I know, but hey, they're my opinion and it feels reasonable to bring up:

to A+:
I think we can all agree Landorus-T is the worst S rank Pokémon at the moment. Heatran and Ash-Greninja's dominance are honestly unmatched I feel, and Landorus-T doesn't quite reach those levels of dominance and viability. But first, lets look at Landorus-T's individual sets: Choice Scarf, the ultimate role compression Pokémon that provides offensive presence, physical bulk, defog, a blistering speed tier, and everything in between. It's a flagship in BO and Balance but is it really as dominant as Ash-Greninja and Heatran are? I don't think so. Like sure, it's super easy to fit on teams and can cover exactly what that last slot needs to cover, but several Balance and BO structures are extremely successful without it, and I don't think it's relevant enough to make Landorus-T S rank on it's own, but well Landorus-T has other sets. Stealth Rock is a strong set, commonly seen in nowadays' BO alongside Magearna and Rotom-W, be it offensive variants or defensive variants this set is an outstanding rocker. But once again, is it S rank worthy? I don't think so. Once again Heatran and Ash-Greninja set the bar up high, not to mention Rotom-W being everywhere makes getting and keeping up rocks not as easy as it seems. It's a great set sure, but I don't find it exactly S rank worthy. There are other Landorus-T sets, but these are the main two, really. I don't think Suicide Lead has much merit to compete with Lead Excadrill let alone be S rank worthy. Looking at the bigger picture, I don't think the joined efforts of Choice Scarf and Stealth Rock sets are quite enough to make Landorus-T as dominant as an S rank should be. Not much has changed for Landorus-T in the current meta game, except for the fact of Rotom-W being pretty much a plague at this point, but I digress, I think the main issue here is that Landorus-T would feel much more adequate in A+ in my opinion, alongside the likes of Magearna and Toxapex as threats that are relevant and you should be mindful of, but not quite as dominant and imperative as Heatran and Ash-Greninja. Sure, Landorus-T still gets enormous amounts of usage, but usage isn't everything. Heatran for example, only is 6th in SPL usage stats as of weeks 1 to 3 (week 4 stats aren't up yet). You can notice a similar pattern with several other tiers too, Latias is a UU S rank but is also 6th. Same applies for Roserade and Zygarde-10% in RU, and Slowbro and Heliolisk in NU. Usage and viability only have so much correlation, and while Landorus-T's status as arguably the tier's main glue is notable, I don't think it's enough to compare it to the current S ranks. I don't think many people will agree with this, but well, worth sharing my thoughts.

to S:
I fully agree with The Hallows on this one, and I think Toxapex is too dominant of a force to be "only" in A+, like Hallows said, Tapu Lele is the only Pokémon that doesn't have to think twice before staying in on Toxapex and the fact that pretty much every team needs some sort of Toxapex abuser reflects that. I won't go too much in depth because I think The Hallows already did a wonderful job reasoning their thoughts.

to S-:

to S-:

to S-:
That's another proposal I had. If Landorus-T to A+ and Toxapex to S feels too drastic—which it probably is—I think bumping Toxapex (and probably Magearna too) alongside to Landorus-T and bringing back the S- rank could be a possible solution. All three kind of stand out from the current pool of A+ Pokémon as extremely viable and relevant but still not quite on the levels of Heatran and Ash-Greninja. This is my preferred solution, but I think it'd probably have even more backlash than the Landorus-T to A+ idea so I'm not sure. Regardless, might as well just bring this up, really.

to A+:
Mega Medicham is deadly at the current moment, having an actual speed tier as opposed to Mega Mawile helps a lot, and Mew and Clefable nearly vanishing after Zygarde's ban does it some favors (moreso the former than the latter). Tapu Koko being back in form is always nice cus now Thunder Punch is viable, and allowed it to get past Pokémon like Reuniclus and Slowbro, not to mention having an easier time with Celesteela. I think at the current point, Mega Medicham is nearly as strong of a Mega as Mawile and Alakazam, and should thus be placed in A+ alongside them. The only real annoyance is bulky Volcarona, but well, have yourself a good rocker and you should be gucci.

to B-:

to B-:

to B-:
All three of these feel a bit too high in B in my honest opinion. Alomomola only really has a place in stall, and having it be above Mega Aggron feels surely odd in my book. Gastrodon, while still fine in a team or two, is mostly a relic of the past I think fits a lot better in B-. And lastly, Mew's niche was really decreased after the inevitable Zygarde ban, while its mostly fine on stall, I think B is too high for it too.

to C:

to C-:
Sticky Web as a playstyle is quite subpar at the moment I feel. We haven't seen any of it this SPL and overall this playstyle really hasn't gotten many achievements as of late. While yeah, this type of playstyle is often better in the ladder, regular HO or even dual screens just feels a lot better and consistent right now, especially because both of these aren't the best at keeping their hazards up, in all honesty.

I won't contribute to the toxapex/lando T argument as I simply haven't formed enough of an opinion to properly debate it but I just wanted to clear up one misconception. Medicham-Mega's thunder punch in electric terrain does NOT allow it to get past reuniclus. Check this calc

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus in Electric Terrain: 184-217 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This means that Reuniclus can recover until electric terrain is gone and then acid armor up. If it already has acid armor up, it's game over.

 

[Charmflash]

S Rank -> S Rank

I would like to express my disagreement with some of Lyd's points on Landorus-Therian. Many assumptions he's made were entirely justified by 'I feel like' and 'in my opinion' rather than actual points which has honestly resulted in a poor case overall. The assumption that Heatran and Ash-Greninja are flat out better than Landorus-Therian is one I dont support. Let us take a look at both of these Pokemon and explore why I hold this opinion.

Heatran has three main sets potentially worthy of S Rank. Those three sets are offensive Z-Crystal, offensive Leftovers and specially defensive Stealth Rock. The first two sets are undoubtly quite powerful against bulkier teams (balance and stall in particular), however, even those teams have started adapting various methods that are specifically aimed at dealing with them. Defensively, they offer a few noticeable resists, particularly the Leftovers set is relatively sturdy, but they are shaky checks at best to most of the things they 'could' switch into such as Tapu Lele and Magearna (amongst many other things), as those could just blow right through it with the right set or an extended period of time. The specially defensive set is definitely more potent in that regard, however, it loses most of its offensive presence and is arguably not even a S Rank set because of that. Moreover, all those sets (besides Grassium-Z) suffer from the rise in Rotom-Wash just as badly as Landorus-Therian does.

Ash-Greninja was instantly regarded to as the greatest thing in the post-Zygarde metagame and it is not hard to see why. The combination of solid special attacker in general + Spikes + now undisputed best priority in the tier + an ability that is threatening enough to allow you to set those Spikes, as well as to take advantage of them by forcing switches while not giving your opponent the opportunity to sack his low health Pokemon and regain momentum is incredibly lethal. However, it does not adore the rise of Rotom-Wash (despite it matching up against it way better than Heatran or Landorus-Therian) and another particular Pokemon is also a very annoying thorn in Ash-Greninja's side: Tapu Fini. Fini negates absolutely everything Ash-Greninja would like to accomplish, getting rid of Spikes the turn after they were set up and taking miniscule damage from any viable attacks, almost completely negating them with two Leftover recovery procs.

Back at Landorus-Therian we have the same versatile monster we've always had. Landorus-Therian is the best Choice Scarf user in the tier, a role still needed on various top tier team structures that dont have an Unaware user or weather as speed control. The Choice Scarf set is as flexible as ever, allowing you to do all the things Lyd mentioned and more, such as being useful defensively, grabbing momentum for your team, being a decently strong offensive threat, fitting hazard control with either Defog or Stealth Rock, and even tuning it for exactly your needs with moves aimed at specifically revenge killing the Pokemon your team would otherwise struggle with such as Punishment, Stone Edge, Earth Power, Explosion etc. . For those reasons I would like to make the case that the by a large margin best Choice Scarf user Landorus-Therian deserves to be ranked in S Rank without a doubt, as he fulfills a more consistent, necessary and viable role than any of his other fellow S Rank Pokemon.

However, Choice Scarf is not the only set that is deserving of S Rank. Offensive Z-move Stealth Rock is the other set deserving of it, as it is like Lyd mentioned a massive presence on bulky offense and balance, demanding a lot of attention during the teambuilding process. Similarly to Offensive Z-move Stealth Rock Garchomp, Landorus-Therian uses his bulk, power and solid speed tier to get Stealth Rock up, however, Flying/Ground coverage is miles better than Dragon/Ground. Additionally, Landorus-Therian also has Intimidate and superior power over the already very viable Stealth Rock setter Garchomp. A nice alternative touch to this set is Rockium-Z, which has been seen in the past and is something Garchomp has also adapted, particularly useful for circumventing classic flying resists such as these ones:
+2 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 402-474 (101.2 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 304-358 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 344-406 (89.8 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

As for the other sets, I agree that they arent worthy of S Rank. Gravity/Smack Down Z-Ground/Earth Plate bullshit is a nice breaker but comes at the cost of the offense matchup, defensive Stealth Rock is slighty overshadowed by defensive Choice Scarf as there are few reasons to use that over the more utility based, role-compressing set and Focus Sash, while definitely not outclassed by lead Excadrill, is only noteworthy on Hyper Offense, a struggling playstyle post-Zygarde.

A+ Rank -> S Rank

Magearna is the single most problematic threat in Overused, bypassing checks with super effective coverage or Calm Mind + Pain Split and outspeeding revenge killers after a Shift Gear boost. Assault Vest is one of the most reliable switch-ins to any special attacker not part Fire-type (including the offensive variant of itself) and has access to Volt-Switch, pivoting in frail but insanely strong breakers. Thus, I think both sets are S Rank quality.

A+ Rank -> A+ Rank

Toxapex may have gotten rid of Zygarde but the meta developing as a result of it actually works in its disfavor. Heatran, Rotom-Wash, Mega-Alakazam, Tapu-Koko, Tapu Fini have all gotten more traction so I really dont see any reason why this should rise.

B Rank -> B+ Rank

Fini has absolutely no business being ranked next to Alomomola, Blacephalon and Suicune, it is the single best answer to the previously discussed Ash-Greninja and takes on a very good amount of Heatran/Landorus-Therian sets while misty terrain allows your teammates to abuse Toxapex. It can run a variety of moves and is a competent user of Defog, being desireable on many bulky offense and even balanced squads.

B Rank -> B Rank

I do not think that dropping the best electric counter when electrics just got more attention is a very smart idea. Gastrodon is particularly fantastic at stopping all forms of Rotom-Wash, be it offensive or pivot and can also handle some other dangers like Ash-Greninja and non Energy Ball / Fairium-Z Magearna or non Grassium-Z Heatran. It is THE Pokemon requiring grass coverage and relevant enough to warrant it on certain Pokemon so its viability ranking should reflect that.

B+ Rank -> B- Rank

Welcome to rock paper scissors the Pokemon. Unfortunately, like Finchinator discovered, you lose around 75% of the time so it is better suited alongside Pokemon like Charizard-Y and Manaphy which are also situationally insane.

I am relatively indifferent about most of the other things brought up so this is it for now, thank you for reading I know that I might have said a bit too much about Landorus.

 

[Katy]

B Rank -> B+ Rank

I agree with a rise here. Tapu Fini is the only one which can check both Heatra and Ash-Gren very well. Fni also has stallbreaking potential with Taunt and Natures madness and Moonblast. Fini also is capable of helping its teammates out due to its ability in Misty Terrain, wich prevents grounded teammates from getting Toxiced by Toxapex and such. Also Misty Terrain prevents with a switchin to another mon, that this mon can get poisoned due to T-Spikes. On another sidenote: Fini is able to beat Pex 1v1 due to the rare but good Whirlpool Taunt Set and the helps of its move Natures Madness + Moonblast, since Pex is trapped due to that.
Fini also likes the decrease of bulky grass types like Bulu and Tangrowth ecause of Zygarde got banned and the metagame shifted to the point, that bulky grasses do not have to check Zygarde, which was on pretty much every team.

Same goes for the Snail Gastrodon:

B Rank -> B Rank

Which I also agree should stay where it is. Electric types such a Koko and Zapdos rise again in popularity, since they do not have to care about Zygarde anymore. Also it is with its typing one of the best checks to Heatran (unless its Grassium Tran, which is rare anyway), the ability in Storm Drain also allows it to check Ash-Gren too and it also gives Gastrodon a boost. Bulky Waters are popular currently, since they can check both Heatran and Ash-Greninja pretty well.

Other mons I agree:

Magearna A+ to S
Hawlucha B+ to B
Toxapex stay A+
and Landorus-T stay S
Mega Sableye B+ to B

 

[king ak47]

what i dont understand is why ribombee and araquanid should drop. from what ive read, there is a lot of hype for kommo o to rise especially the offensive sets.

i personally think the offensive sets work best with sticky webs and screens or 1 or the other so it doesnt make sense to drop them, should stay where they were at at c and c+

 

[Adapt or Die]

Alright well I actually forgot I was gonna make a post regarding noms I disagree with, but now that I look back there honestly aren't a lot of actual VR noms here that were made that I disagree with. A few of those have already been beaten to death, so I'm not even gonna talk about them, but before I get into the main nom I wanna address, I just wanna throw my support behind rising Kommo-o to C+. I actually nommed Kommo-o myself some pages back to C, and was pretty hesitant to nom it up further since I wasn't 100% sure whether C+ was good enough when I first made the post, but now I most definitely agree. I'm not gonna touch on it more since others above did that and I already did over a week ago, so go dig that post up I suppose (it's on page 76 if you care).

B- to B Disagree

This is another nom from ages ago that not a lot of people really commented on, and while Keld has generally gotten better overall from the metagame trends that are going in its favor, is it enough to really warrant Keld moving up? Arguable, but idts. I still think Keld is fine in B- and is on par with most other mons in that rank. That said, that doesn't make Keld any less threatening to most Balances running around atm, whether it's the imo better CM + Taunt set or the Specs set it has a field day vs a lot of teams in the meta that are running around, so I could probably be convinced otherwise, and it has nice defensive utility on top of that for an offensive mon. Really idk what else to say because my main reason for disagreeing is that I just can't see Keld as on par with B Rank mons more than I can see it on par with B- Rank mons.

I also wanna briefly mention the Gengar talk on the previous page, and while idc whether Gengar drops or not, I think making the notion to UR Gengar is honestly kinda ludicrous, especially before shit like Mimikyu and Shuckle and the fact that the reasoning for dropping Gar in the first place is kinda shaky. Now don't confuse this for me trying to compare Gengar to those mons because they all do entirely things, but while Gengar is mostly outclassed as a Ghost-type breaker by Blace, I really don't understand the posts on it after the nom, especially as I said the one saying that they think it should be UR. Gengar is definitely not on the same level as most shit that're UR or in C-. I think one think that's not being considered is that Gengar's speed tier is actually pretty nice in conjuction with Scarf as it let's Gengar reliably revenge kill Kartana, which is something else that Blace cannot claim to do, and while it is a pretty small niche thing to nitpick idt it should be something so quick to dismiss. Idt Specs is a good set nor should be used to consider Gengar's rank, so I won't touch on that set. As for Gengar's breaking set with LO (or Z-Move if you want), I think Hex Will-o is being slept on as it gets around a lot of problems that it has currently, letting it get around its switch-ins much more reliably and is probably Gengar's best set in the meta. That combo as well as having Focus Blast sets Gengar apart from Blace, and Gengar is relatively unexplored as a mon as it has lots of potential cool techs. Overall, as I said very early on in the post idc where Gengar goes, but idt Gengar was rightfully getting the justice it deserves and I don't want this misconception that Focus Blast is all Gengar has over Blace and that it's outclassed to the point it should be UR because that's just incorrect. I'm just gonna leave calcs below to show how terrifying Gengar can be to take on with Hex compared to Shadow Ball and end the post because I gotta get ready for work here soon.

calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 200-238 (50.3 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 125-148 (31.4 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 156-185 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and burn damage
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 97-114 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and burn damage

I can get more calcs later if it's really needed as there aren't a lot here but I really gotta get going now, also keep in mind the calcs with Shadow Ball NEED rocks to even achieve the 3HKO

Edit: just came back real quick because I noticed right after I posted that fsr there were 2 hide tags instead of one, but I keep fucking the post up more somehow I'm just gonna give up on trying to fix it cause it just won't fix fsr no matter what I do and I don't have the time for something so small so ig enjoy having 2 hide tags (for now) Mod edit: fixed

You need to compare Hexgar to its actual competition (Blacephalon) and not to shadow ball gar. Now Blace gets WoW (even though it very rarely runs it) so the only real question is whether hex's power justifies Gengar's usage. Looking at the two mons you described and using Blace's speed boosting calm mind set.

Celesteela-lol
20 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 204-242 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 20 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 306-362 (77 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And now the toxapex matchup:
+1 20 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 211-249 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
20 SpA Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 70-84 (23 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery

So yeah Gengar has a better matchup against toxapex with hex. Blace still has a pretty decent shot to 2HKO with Never ending nightmare + shadow ball after rocks. Although it does create a 50-50s in which the pex user has to decide to recover or Haze that hexgar avoids altogether. If they recover calm mind is a win, if they haze never ending nightmare wins at least a fair amount of the time. I'll concede this is a definite niche of Hexgar.

Now you can correct me if I'm wrong, but unless there's another critical hex related matchup blace is going to be able to break things at +1 just as well as Hex-Gar is after a burn and in many cases better. CM blace sets up on and beats chansey something gengar can only pp stall. Add in it gets a speed boost after a ko so it can legitimately sweep, fire stab cleans through magearna and other steel types much better and calm mind blace is just in general much better. So lets see if we can summarize Gengar's niche:

1. All Out Pummeling lets it not get eaten by tyranitar for breakfast, and provides better matchup for heatran.

2. Hex lets Gengar break through toxapex more consistently.

3. Scarf lets it revenge kill +1 kartana, and reliably revenge kill +1 Blacephalon.

Meanwhile advantages of Blacephalon over Gengar

1. Stab fire gives it a better matchup against all steels not named Heatran.

2. Beast boost gives scarf substantially more power while allowing calm mind to setup and sweep.

For two mons that most fulfill the same niche you have to push to find roles Gengar is better in and even then its roles can't be condensed in the same set (it can't run LO Hex, All-Out-Pummeling and scarf at the same time). There's certainly SOME teams where Gengar will be better than Blacephalon, but on the vast majority Blace will be better. I may have been a bit harsh with unranking it. But we should drop it to C/C-.

 

[Guard]

I haven’t reacted to other posts in a long time so it’s about time I get on with it!

Landorus-Therian

It’s no secret that Landorus is versatile and very customizable and splashable but if that is your reasoning to keep it at S, then you’re throwing it into a vacuum. Landorus has always been versatile and splashable and if we were to follow that reasoning, it would have been S for its entire existence, which frankly isn’t the case.

It honestly is in an awkward position right now. Scarf is its most used set and arguably its best, but the ubiquity of Rotom-Wash in the current metagame is detrimental to its effectiveness. Unlike Torn-T, you can’t just slap Stone Edge on scarf and call it a day, which means every time Scarf Lando enters battle, it has to U-turn out in order to preserve momentum against the obnoxious washing machine, if not running either Explosion or Toxic, both of which have obvious drawbacks. Also, Zapdos and Celesteela becoming much better hasn’t favoured Scarf Lando either.

Speaking of Celesteela and Zapdos, they and the washing machine also give Flyinium Z a severe headache, which already has lost a bit of traction due to Tang and Bulu not plaguing the tier anymore. Rockium Z is an option that breaks both Rotom and Celesteela relatively easily, but its overall breaking prowess leaves a little to be desired prior to a Sword’s Dance, which honestly makes it a less appealing option over Flyinium; however, that might change. Its bulky sets are nice and all in role compression and checking prowess but frankly not S-worthy and neither is its Suicide Lead set.

So I think it ultimately boils down to the question whether or not Scarf is effective enough to still warrant an S ranking in the current metagame. Personally, I’d reintroduce S- too and slap it in there alongside Magearna and Toxapex, partly because imagining Lando in A+ feels a little surreal but mostly due to the fact that it looks extremely out of place alongside Heatran and Ash-Greninja.

Magearna to S (see my previous post)

Toxapex to S

Pex’s grip on the current meta reminds me of its late-SM-days and it was S back then so I guess it’s a reasonable nomination. It fails to compare to Ash-Gren and Heatran but it also seems a bit too good for A+, so I’m unsure what to do here. Again, S- would have been perfect.

Medicham-mega A >>> A+

I’m not going to say complicated things here. Try out the Mega Medi sample team and just see for yourself what it does to current defensive backbones. (It’s exactly what Mawile does, if you’re too lazy, so bump this up)

,

and

should rise too for their success in current balance teams.

And now, one of my own…

Tapu Koko A >>> A+

I’m surprised this hasn’t been brought up yet. What Tapu Koko was in the Zygarde-meta is a shadow of what it is now. Forget that fancy Defog set and Dual Screens, Specs is back in the business. Tangrowth’s drop in viability means there isn’t much that can switch into Specs Koko and preserve momentum for you. Grounds are able to block Volt Switch but obviously fear HP Ice and Dazzling Gleam and other Grasses don’t have Regenerator to keep momentum up (unless you want to talk Amoongus). I feel like Koko is back to its former best and it was A+ at that time so it seems fair to rise this.

 

[Adapt or Die]

Like 4 pages back I nommed ninetales and venusaur back as a general sun is c- viability nom. I didn't have all the replays I wanted, but was too busy to get the replays I wanted, and since it's so far back I was afraid no one would see them.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861063214 Hp electric Ninetales takes out pelipper tilting weather in favor, (if I don't stupidly sack vena, vena runs the table in sun). It's weirdly eved pelipper as well as standard is a roll to go down to hp electric plus rocks. Unlike torkoal, ninetales can come in and scare out swampert and can outspeed pelipper whereas torkoal would have to get it on the switch.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861055386 Here's Venusaur sweeping through a balance team after Victini softens up the checks. Seriously this mon deserves at least C-.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861071053 Venusaur takes out gren, cham and weakens mage assuring Victini's sweep. Here you can see that boost is not necessary to do damage and that Venusaur can soften teams mid-game not just being restricted to endgame cleaner/stallbreaker.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861074569 Another rain team trashed by hp electric ninetales. Vena gets the clean up this time. (I know my opponent is pretty low elo, but I wanted to show the rain matchup where venusaur gets to do the cleanup)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861507477 Here's a replay where venusaur clean 5 mon sweeps.


Edit: My two earlier replays just so they're all on the same post with a little more explanation

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-850365073 Venusaur eats a stall team as confide chansey can't keep pace with growth. Non-confide chansey just gets boosted on and at best can twave or chip. Plus usually I get the hypnosis from tales on chans to get a free growth turn. Venusaur is especially good at breaking stall since it stunts all over unaware users that just get destroyed by its stabs.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-850402037 Ninetales incapacitates Hippo to tilt weather, non-switch hypnosis is a gamble, but in certain matchups worth the risk. Hypnosis on the switch is awesome though.

 

[robofiend]

Like 4 pages back I nommed ninetales and venusaur back as a general sun is c- viability nom. I didn't have all the replays I wanted, but was too busy to get the replays I wanted, and since it's so far back I was afraid no one would see them.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861063214 Hp electric Ninetales takes out pelipper tilting weather in favor, (if I don't stupidly sack vena, vena runs the table in sun). It's weirdly eved pelipper as well as standard is a roll to go down to hp electric plus rocks. Unlike torkoal, ninetales can come in and scare out swampert and can outspeed pelipper whereas torkoal would have to get it on the switch.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861055386 Here's Venusaur sweeping through a balance team after Victini softens up the checks. Seriously this mon deserves at least C-.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861071053 Venusaur takes out gren, cham and weakens mage assuring Victini's sweep. Here you can see that boost is not necessary to do damage and that Venusaur can soften teams mid-game not just being restricted to endgame cleaner/stallbreaker.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861074569 Another rain team trashed by hp electric ninetales. Vena gets the clean up this time. (I know my opponent is pretty low elo, but I wanted to show the rain matchup where venusaur gets to do the cleanup)

I'm not sure if I can 100% get behind M-Venu being ranked but all of these replays showcase the fact that Ninetales should probably be ranked regardless of what we do with Venu.

Your replays show that Sun is a viable archetype and that Ninetales is the backbone for these teams. Ninetales is the reason this team succeeds not only against the unprepared, but also against opposing rain, which is straight up amazing. Ninetales has the coverage to beat some of its checks, as well as the bulk to eat an attack or two when necessary. Ninetales boosts Victini, Venusaur, and other mons not showcased by reliably keeping weather up and giving them favorable conditions to fire off their attacks.

Venusaur I find a little less compelling, since it gets worn down or beaten very quickly by stall, opposing weather (Tyranitar), priority attacks (M-Pinsir, M-Mawile, M-Scizor, Mamo, Weavile, etc.), and ultrafast mons (e.g. Scarf Kartana does 60%, Scarf Gren does 90+, KokoLucha obviously destroys, M-Zam traces Chloro and counter-sweeps). That said, C- might be appropriate because it can boost with Growth, run Z moves, bait Heatran with EQ, or just clean up as your replays demonstrated. In fact, baiting Heatran alone is huge for Sun.

TL;DR I think we should rank Ninetales to C- regardless of what happens to Venusaur.

Here are a couple of replays of my own
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861471791 - early game Ninetales + Venu both help to get some mons worn down for a Serp sweep. Bad RNG with Lando freezing put my on my back foot but Serp still destroyed for me.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861481399 - early game sun + Venu struggles a little this time, but still wears down the Tang/Heatran/Lando core enough for the rest of the team to win.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861483910 - early game sun + Venu again, though my opponent crapped the bed hard by using Z-Celebrate when I had more sun turns. I probably would have won anyway, but this was a bit unfortunate.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861485613 - early game Ninetales + Venu again, this time Venu blasts through Heatran and Tangrowth which is massive for keeping momentum on my side and letting Serp pull off the late-game sweep. Yeah, my Kommo-o set is weird but it works for keeping status off me while still being able to chip through common cores.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I'm not sure if I can 100% get behind M-Venu being ranked but all of these replays showcase the fact that Ninetales should probably be ranked regardless of what we do with Venu.

Your replays show that Sun is a viable archetype and that Ninetales is the backbone for these teams. Ninetales is the reason this team succeeds not only against the unprepared, but also against opposing rain, which is straight up amazing. Ninetales has the coverage to beat some of its checks, as well as the bulk to eat an attack or two when necessary. Ninetales boosts Victini, Venusaur, and other mons not showcased by reliably keeping weather up and giving them favorable conditions to fire off their attacks.

Venusaur I find a little less compelling, since it gets worn down or beaten very quickly by stall, opposing weather (Tyranitar), priority attacks (M-Pinsir, M-Mawile, M-Scizor, Mamo, Weavile, etc.), and ultrafast mons (e.g. Scarf Kartana does 60%, Scarf Gren does 90+, KokoLucha obviously destroys, M-Zam traces Chloro and counter-sweeps). That said, C- might be appropriate because it can boost with Growth, run Z moves, bait Heatran with EQ, or just clean up as your replays demonstrated. In fact, baiting Heatran alone is huge for Sun.

TL;DR I think we should rank Ninetales to C- regardless of what happens to Venusaur.

Here are a couple of replays of my own
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861471791 - early game Ninetales + Venu both help to get some mons worn down for a Serp sweep. Bad RNG with Lando freezing put my on my back foot but Serp still destroyed for me.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861481399 - early game sun + Venu struggles a little this time, but still wears down the Tang/Heatran/Lando core enough for the rest of the team to win.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861483910 - early game sun + Venu again, though my opponent crapped the bed hard by using Z-Celebrate when I had more sun turns. I probably would have won anyway, but this was a bit unfortunate.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-861485613 - early game Ninetales + Venu again, this time Venu blasts through Heatran and Tangrowth which is massive for keeping momentum on my side and letting Serp pull off the late-game sweep. Yeah, my Kommo-o set is weird but it works for keeping status off me while still being able to chip through common cores.

2 things- I actually use sun and want to provide more support. Sun is a very valuable archetype and you can set differently. I actually ran sun with zard y as my setter(i rec zard y or torkoal over ninetails). And yes venuesaur actually does get threatened by all of those things however depending on your support and set you really dont care. I ran growth for one and lo with 4 attacks for the other (solar beam, eq, sludge wave, hp fire etc). Ttar can be okoed if u run z grass btw. you oko mega scizor and mmwahile (after rocks). If you want my replays I can easily provide a few. But ya definitely do not lump venu with ninetails.

 

[3-13 Archer]

Alright, I've been lurking without an account for years and am finally posting something.

I'd like to nominate Weavile for a drop from B -> B-. It's honestly becoming less and less useful as a pursuit trapper. With Zygarde gone it can no longer prey on non-Extreme Speed sets, and nothing else has really changed about its role in checking other mons that are quad-weak to ice. Mega Ttar is rising in viability to check the influx of Mega Latias, and Tar is just a stronger and bulkier pursuit trapper more suited to the metagame. Weavile can drop Ice Shard for Low Kick to lure opposing darks and steels, but none of its tech options are uncommon enough to be surprising and effective. It gets overwhelmed by offense and is nowhere near the best option for efficiently breaking the current balances. The plethora of amazing hazard setters make it impossible for Weavile to stay above half health. Mega Mawile and Magearna are only getting better and better, and both eat Weavile alive. Sure, Weavile has niches due to its 375 speed outspeeding Heatran at base (which TTar can't do), and lack of a mega slot (meaning that you can run it alongside Mega Latias with Low Kick and Pursuit). However, there has been recent discussion of 'mons dropping to B- due to their inability to consistently meet the expectations set for them on paper, and I believe that Weavile fits in nicely in the same tier as Manaphy, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Charizard-Y.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Alright, I've been lurking without an account for years and am finally posting something.

I'd like to nominate Weavile for a drop from B -> B-. It's honestly becoming less and less useful as a pursuit trapper. With Zygarde gone it can no longer prey on non-Thousand Arrows sets, and nothing else has really changed about its role in checking other mons that are quad-weak to ice. Mega Ttar is rising in viability to check the influx of Mega Latias, and Tar is just a stronger and bulkier pursuit trapper more suited to the metagame. Weavile can drop Ice Shard for Low Kick to lure opposing darks and steels, but none of its tech options are uncommon enough to be surprising and effective. It gets overwhelmed by offense and is nowhere near the best option for efficiently breaking the current balances. The plethora of amazing hazard setters make it impossible for Weavile to stay above half health. Mega Mawile and Magearna are only getting better and better, and both eat Weavile alive. Sure, Weavile has niches due to its 375 speed outspeeding Heatran at base (which TTar can't do), and lack of a mega slot (meaning that you can run it alongside Mega Latias with Low Kick and Pursuit). However, there has been recent discussion of 'mons dropping to B- due to their inability to consistently meet the expectations set for them on paper, and I believe that Weavile fits in nicely in the same tier as Manaphy, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Charizard-Y.

First of all, who said it only trapped Latis? Weavile traps plenty of other things like Torn, Zam, Lele, and Reunicles. Also, you focused on Magearna and Mawile being better, but what about Scizor’s drop in usefulness? I think that’s a big boon for Weavile. And the somewhat recent discovery of Choice Scarf Weavile makes it even better as it gives Weavile some depth to it’s sets and makes a good Alakzam trapper and scarf Lando revenge killer, which is big right now. Hazards are less of an issue for Weavile than before because of all the great defoggers in the meta. And it’s banded STAB is super annoying to switch into outside a z Magearna (AV and Lefties don’t like losing it’s item), Mawile, and Scizor. The rest either get 2HKOd or losing their item fucks them over. I don't see any evidence besides Mawile and Magearna being slightly better that makes Weavile worthy of a drop especially to the same level of Zard Y or Manaphy. It's way better than any of those mons. And this isn’t like Tangrowth where it’s main job was to beat Zygarde, it was a benefit that went alongside the other reasons you use it. Don’t drop this please.

 

[Colonel M]

Alright, I've been lurking without an account for years and am finally posting something.

I'd like to nominate Weavile for a drop from B -> B-. It's honestly becoming less and less useful as a pursuit trapper. With Zygarde gone it can no longer prey on non-Extreme Speed sets, and nothing else has really changed about its role in checking other mons that are quad-weak to ice. Mega Ttar is rising in viability to check the influx of Mega Latias, and Tar is just a stronger and bulkier pursuit trapper more suited to the metagame. Weavile can drop Ice Shard for Low Kick to lure opposing darks and steels, but none of its tech options are uncommon enough to be surprising and effective. It gets overwhelmed by offense and is nowhere near the best option for efficiently breaking the current balances. The plethora of amazing hazard setters make it impossible for Weavile to stay above half health. Mega Mawile and Magearna are only getting better and better, and both eat Weavile alive. Sure, Weavile has niches due to its 375 speed outspeeding Heatran at base (which TTar can't do), and lack of a mega slot (meaning that you can run it alongside Mega Latias with Low Kick and Pursuit). However, there has been recent discussion of 'mons dropping to B- due to their inability to consistently meet the expectations set for them on paper, and I believe that Weavile fits in nicely in the same tier as Manaphy, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Charizard-Y.

You can't one range that Tiger there buddy.

I disagree with the Weavile drop. Though it has a couple things going against it, there are a lot more Psychic-types currently being used in the tier and techs like Z-Dig are not totally out of the question to bypass Toxapex a bit easier. On top of Pursuit shenanigans, Weavile can still remove items with Knock Off or dent something with Icicle Crash. I think Weavile is still in a fair spot within the metagame and definitely shouldn't drop to the same tier Mamoswine is in - a Pokemon that is strong but rather questionable to splash into a team unlike Weavile since Mamoswine has some issues alongside itself.

 

[Finchinator]

Weav is fine in B. It's not a necessarily good Pokemon and its niche is increasingly limited considering that the Scarf set is hardly something to value much given its lack of usage/showings and the Band set faces competition from Pokemon that have actual defensive footprints such as Tyranitar. It does boast a superb speed stat coupled with a nice dual STAB, but in a metagame where longevity is no laughing matter, Weavile remains a niche option as opposed to a more consistent metagame staple type like it was in ORAS. This does not mean it should be B-, however, as it still has a recognizable niche, distinguishing itself from Pokemon that are hardly ever seen that almost all reside in B- and lower.