Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

[New Light]

First of all, I just realized that I made some mistakes in the calcs in my original post about Beartic. I calced with AV Chan having 252 Attack EVs when it typically only runs 136. I will correct that after I finish this post.

Beartic may not have the x4 weakness to Fighting but Alolaslash's typing allows it not to be Rock weak, which I believe to be very significant when it comes to a mon that is supposed to sweeping. Because you do not account for rocks being up (which I think should be accounted for tbh even if you have removal), Beartic is easily revenge-killed and actually dies to LO chan's Mach Punch. Sure, AV chan and gurdurr don't ohko it with Mach, but it takes a considerable chunk, rocks included, and is unable to switch in again. It may kill Chan with Subzero but Gurdurr is only 2hko at +0 and just proceeds to Drain Punch. This really mitigates the argument about not having x4 Fighting weakness since rocks just reduce its longevity compared to alolaslash and they're both as vulnerable to Fighting as one another.

I grant you that the Rock weakness is unfortunate but to say that it effectively makes Beartic just as weak to Fighting as Slash is an overstatement. Acknowledging that Rocks are an issue is fair enough. Acting as though there will rarely, if ever, be a situation in which Beartic does not switch into Rocks is taking things too far. Even assuming Rocks are always up, Beartic still handles fighting priority better than AlolaSlash.
LO Chan OHKOes Beartic 62.5% of the time with Mach after Rocks but it OHKOes AlolaSlash 100% of the time whether or not Rocks are up.
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 234-276 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandslash-Alola: 333-395 (114.4 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's also worth noting that LO Chan isn't all that common. AV Chan is much more popular and does not kill Bear with Mach after Rocks.

As for Gurdurr, Beartic's matchup with it is admittedly not perfect but it can bust through it a fair amount of the time, which is more than can be said for AlolaSlash.

Secondly, Aqua Jet may be nice priority to chip faster mons like Ape, but this is in the ideal situation where Beartic is at a +2 after Swords Dance.

I think you undervalue Aqua Jet. Being able to pick off weakened revenge killers and priority users is really handy. In one of the replays I included in my original post, Beartic is able to stay in against Simisear after Hail has stopped thanks to Aqua Jet. Situations like that are not super uncommon.

Beartic isn't the most bulkiest mon, pure Ice type offering it pretty much nothing defensively and nothing is just gonna let it set up for free.

Ice is bad defensive typing but Beartic isn't exactly frail. 95/80/80 defenses are not bad for an offensive mon. For example, it lives an Iron Head from AlolaSlash:
252 Atk Sandslash-Alola Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 264-312 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It also forces plenty of switches. Beartic is not all that hard to set up with and can still be threatening without setup. It has great coverage and huge Attack, after all.

Even passive mons like Clef and defensive Mes will have enough chip damage with their STAB to allow something like again, Gurdurr and Chan to kill it because it is in Mach Punch range and if Rocks are up, then its finished.

Alright, let's run some calcs using the mons you mentioned. I already addressed the Stealth Rock thing and I think it's fair to assume there are no Rocks in this scenario since both defensive Mes and Clef are typically sent in early to get up Rocks and Beartic can switch in as Mes or Clef use SR to avoid damage. Of course, there are other variations of this scenario but this is the one that I've found myself in most frequently. I'll assume AV Chan since that's by far the most common set.

0 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Beartic: 121-144 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Clefairy Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Beartic: 100-100 (30.2 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Beartic: 82-97 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
136+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 164-194 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
192+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beartic: 144-170 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
So, if Mesprit rolls high with Psychic and Chan rolls high with Mach Punch, Beartic dies. That's pretty unlikely. Mesprit Psychic+ Gurdurr Mach Punch never kills, barring crits. Clefairy obviously fares even worse. Let me reiterate that even if it doesn't sweep, Beartic is almost certainly killing something if it gets to+2, which it will against defensive Mesprit or Clef.

Speed is still a huge issue for this mon, and I acknowledge you realise alolaslash beats it in this department but just because Toge is gone, doesn't mean things get better for Beartic. Scarf Ape is gonna be on the rise again and being one of the scarfers that are able to outspeed +2 Beartic means it's pressured as much as it was before.

Its Speed is less than ideal but it is not as big an issue as you make it out to be. In Hail, it still outspeeds everything relevant that isn't at +1, Scarfed, or Sandslash Alola and it has priority and it can wallbreak.
Toge leaving was good for Beartic. Yeah, Ape is still an issue and will probably rise in usage but given the current meta, I don't think it is as splashable as Toge was. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Even if it is as splashable, I doubt that its usage will surpass the combined past usage of Toge and Ape. As I showed in my original post, +2 Aqua Jet does over 50% to Ape, so it can be overcome if chipped. +6 Jet OHKOes but I acknowledge that it's rare to get to +6. The Defense drops of Close Combat can also cause it to be more susceptible to AJ.

I think saying Beartic is a "solid" hail sweeper is a bit of an overstatement and you fail to see the flaws associated with this pokemon. Like if you're running full-hail, then go ahead and use Beartic. But on semi-hail cores like Aurorus + Alolaslash, 9.9 out of 10 times, alolaslash will always take that spot over Beartic. There's little reason to use Beartic outside of dedicated full hail and it's still outclassed by alolaslash in semi-hail.

You keep focusing on it is as a sweeper but as I've repeatedly pointed out, it's not just a sweeper; it's also a wallbreaker. I do not "fail to see the flaws associated with this Pokemon". I am intimately familiar with them. I have acknowledged them. That's why I nommed it for D. It's niche but it can be a valuable member of some teams. At the very least, it's useful on full hail, which you admit. You even admit that it may occasionally be useful on semi hail.

 

[Ktütverde]

A -> A+
This mon is absolutely great atm, fits everywhere, HO, offense, BO, balance. Why is it so good?
- the only stealth rock user which doesn't let eggy switchin for free
-the best spinner atm
-a splashable normal resist (necessary in stoutland meta)
-hard stops non-HP fire lilligant
-pressures common defoggers (altaria, articuno) especially because of utility moves like toxic, knock off, and its great offensive dual typing
-counters or checks almost all the S/A+ rank mons (great mesprit/skunk switchin for instance)
-best ice resist in the tier

Basically, Snowslash is the definition of "utility" and "splashability".

A- -> A
This thing has become a stall staple, and is quite good in balance too with its role compression: gurdurr/chan counter, primeape hard check (yeah, uturn+spikes can be a bit annoying), walls kanghaskhan and dodrio quite well, says "lol" to aggron and lycanrock. One may argue about mudsdale being better, but they are quite different actually and I see mudsdale as a BO stealth rock setter with offensive capabilities, while quag's a big blue glue (try to repeat it 10 times in a row as fast as possible). Balance is quite bad atm, due to stuff like stoutland, froslass and exeguttor being deadly threats you cannot really handle correctly without resorting to stall, but If you wanna use balance, try this dude paired with stuff like roselia/sandslash to compress roles, check most of the meta and have room for breakers and speed control. Quag is just good overall, annoying as hell and not easiliy exploitable like mudsdale or regi which, even though they are very different, have no recovery.
Don't forget your normal resist, quag cannot handle stoutland. And don't forget your eggy check, quag cannot hand- ok, i'm speaking too much.


Thanks for reading!

 

[Musharnanigans]

Golem C+ -> B-

Golem's typing is wonderful in PU as it can offensively check a lot of stuff and hit back like a truck with a Choice Band. Unlike CB Aggron, It does not have to fear getting OHKO'd from random HP fighting or ground and can switch-in on Pokemon like Kangaskhan without worrying about getting nuked by Earthquake or Hammer Arm afterwards. Golem has a form of priority that CB Mudsdale lacks and can act as a normal and flying resist for your team which is essential with Stoutland and Dodrio being pretty darn good. But here's the biggest reason to use Golem: it can switch-in on Oricorio-Pom Pom and immediately threaten it out. You can say that Mudsdale and Aggron can do the same thing, but unlike those two Pokemon, Golem can live a HP fighting or resist a Supersonic Skystrike. Golem's pretty unexplored rn but a Pokemon that can offensively check Oricorio-Pom Pom, locked-in Dodrio, Lycanroc, Stoutland, and Kangaskhan all in one slot is pretty nice and is not worthy of being in C+ rank with things like Mawile and Cradily lol.

set i use

Golem @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Sucker Punch

 

[UberSkitty]

So here's some more noms and interviews

Lilligant: A+ -> S
Now that we've gotten rid of one S-rank broken Grass-type, it's time to rise the next one. Lilligant has proven to be what I see as the most prevalent setup mon, as well as offensive mon in general imo. There are very few Pokemon that full on counter it, as even Pokemon like Oricorio-Pom-Pom and Articuno can be played around with Sleep Power and Z-Hyper Beam after Stealth Rock. It can also choose between Hidden Power types to hit Pokemon like Alolan Sandslash. As for offensive checks like Choice Scarf Primeape and Skuntank, Lilligant can play around those too on the switch with Z-Sleep Power, or just Sleep Power. As for priority moves, besides being able to play around Sucker Punch with Sleep Powder, it has to notable weakness to moves like Lycanroc's Accelrock and Gurdurr's Mach Punch, with further makes it difficult to revenge kill after setting up. But enough about Sleep Powder, since that's not the only thing great about Lilligant. It can set up on so many mons like Mudsdale, Regirock, Lanturn, Quagsire, ect. Also Pokemon it puts to Sleep. Did I mention Sleep Powder is good? The meta has also been pretty nice to Lilligant, since on top of Alolan Exeggutor leaving, Pokemon like Oricorio-Sensu, which can't be played around with Z-Hyper Beam, and Scyther have fallen in usage. It also helps that Pokemon like Altaria are pretty much non-existent. While Oricorio-Pom-Pom rising in usage does suck, as previously stated, it can still play around that. Similar to what a lot of people said about Mesprit at the beginning of the gen, Lilligant is borderline impossible to reliably counter with all its different options. Speaking of different options, Lilligant can also run Choice Specs and Choice Scarf for that surprise factor, with the former being even better now that its competition as a Grass-type with Choice Specs in Alolan Exeggutor is gone. These sets also have perks like being able to run stuff like Leaf Storm and Healing Wish. Overall, Lilligant has proven itself to be a large offensive threat, and is ready to Quiver Dance up to S-rank.

Primeape: B+ -> A-
This is pretty much the only other nom I can think of at the moment that hasn't already been said. With Togedemaru gone, Primeape is one of the better Choice Scarf users, or at least as good as those in A-. Its U-turn has an actual offensive presence unlike Mesprit's and it doesn't have to worry about taking Stealth Rock Damage unlike Scyther. Pokemon like Jellicent have lowered in usage and Weezing is gone now, and even with Pokemon like Quagsire running around (now I wanna see a Quagsire running) it can 2HKO with stuff like Seed Bomb. Other stuff like its strong STAB and Defiant are also pretty nifty. Similar to Lilligant, it can also run other sets like Choice Band and Encore, which are both pretty cool. Primeape just does so well in this current offensive meta, and is definitely A- material.

Next up noms I agree with
Regice: C -> Somewhere higher
Quagsire: A- -> A
Simipour: UR -> C/C-

So yeah no controversial noms here, bye.

 

[Katy]

Lilligant: A+ -> S

Agree on a Lilligant rise. It is one of the best mons in the current metagame. I played a lot recently with it, Lilligant offers so much offensive pressure and having access to Sleep Powder helps it even more to get off a QD Sweep or cripple down the opposing team with one member asleep.
What it really loves is Volt-Turn support, - which is fairly easy to get - with mons like AV Lanturn, Mesprit, Eelektross and occosionally Alola-Raichu to get it in on a safe and potent spot.
The best checks in Articuno and Oricorio-PomPom are still getting threatend by HP Rock and / or Z-Hyper Beam, which allows it to break through these with ease.
What Lilligant really likes is the Hazard Stack this metagame has to offer as well, with Froslass (Spikes), Alo-Slash (Rocks), Mudsdale (Rocks) and also Regirock (Rocks), which can also threaten Lilligants checks most of the time, with their respective STABs or Attacks.
I think S-Rank shows more what Lilligant is able to do than A+ rank does.
Lilligant to S - yes pls.

 

[sugar ovens]

Lycanroc A+ -> A
Lycanroc is a fairly predictable setup sweeper which is checked very well by too many too common Pokémon. While other top-tier sweepers can often run a variety of coverage moves or Z-moves to get past at least some of their checks, Lycanroc relies on its one-time-nuke Lycanium Z to pick off weakened Regirocks, Gurdurrs, Mudsdales,... It is threatened by Fighting-type priority moves, Persian, our-new-premier-scarfer Primeape which it can't beat with Sucker Punch etc. Its still a very good sweeper, just not an A+ rank one.

Victreebel B -> B+/A-
Vic has already proven how threatening it is many times. Typing that is super-effective versus a majority of our walls, an extremely wide variety of good sets with moves such as Strength Sap, (Z-)Sleep Powder, SD, Sucker Punch etc. It is revenge killed fairly easily (if it isnt Z-sleep or self-setting sun), but wallbreaks pretty well and its a pain to deal with it.. or switch into it. Definitely much better than Combusken, Altaria or Floatzel.

Carbink C -> C+/B-
A very common pokémon on stall teams; the most reliable Normal-type-wallbreaker check, SR setter, wall, its not just a niche broken FIre type check anymore. Drampa and Dodrio may also be more relevant now, after Togedemaru's rise and Exeggutor's ban.

Lilligant A+ -> S: Disagree
In my opinion, an S-rank Pokémon should be a bit more than just a borderline-broken setup mon. Scarf is really bad, useful just for surprising people and Healing Wish, Specs is slightly better, but it doesnt really beat the Quiver Dance set checks and the coverage of Leaf Storm + Hidden Power.. its not perfect, if you want it to actually wallbreak. Quiver Dance is really the best set - by far - and yes, its our best setup mon right now, it has options like Z-Hyper Beam, HP Fire/Rock, Sleep Powder and Z-Aromatherapy but still, you are choosing between losing to stall, losing to the super-common Snowslash, Sleep Powder is a coinflip at the cost of valuable coverage or a healing move. All the random chip damage, status, priority moves, Taunt users, the offensive nature of the metagame making it tricky to setup... A+ is appropiate for Lilligant.

 

[Greybaum]

Lilligant: A+ to S (Agree)
Let's get the big one out of the way first.
Lilligant has many checks and counters, there's no denying that. In fact, here's a nifty chart:

Chart!

(I forgot about Primeape while making this but it's basically the same as Scarf Scyther; it can't switch in, and it loses to +2 Speed Lilligant (gained via Z-Sleep Powder or 2 boosts) but can revenge kill Lilligant depending on the situation.

Compare this to other A+ ranks like Lycanroc or Stoutland. Every Lycanroc set is going to lose to bulky ground types like Mudsdale and Claydol, fighting types like Gurdurr and Poliwrath etc.
Similarly, Stoutland can be checked by physical walls like Metang, Regirock and Tangela consistently.
Now, back to Lilligant. Unless you're using Roselia, Type:Null or AV Crabominable you're using a shaky check at best; either they rely on prediction like Oricorio, or they outright lose to certain sets like Skuntank and Sandslash-Alola. Even Roselia, Type:Null and AV Crab aren't perfect checks; they're all somewhat easy to wear down over time and are heavily crippled by Knock off.

To get to the point: You can get away with having only one Lycanroc check. You'll be very Lycanroc weak, but you won't outright lose like you will vs Lilligant. You can't only have one Lilligant check because one variant will beat you. This restricts team building and forces you to have at least two Lilligant checks on every team, forcing cores like Skuntank & Sandslash-Alola or Sensu & Victreebel.

TL;DR - Lilligant restricts team building in a way no other A+ mon can. I can definitely understand arguments against it being S ranked, but I'm in the opinion that it's justified when teams have to warp so hard to avoid losing to it.

Primeape: B+ -> A- (Agree)

Primeape is back to being one of the best scarfers in the tier. There's not much to say about this nom, but it's not punished quite so hard now that Exeggutor-A isn't around to set up on its Close Combat and Togedemaru's left an empty void for scarfers like Dodrio and Primeape to fill.
It's a lot better now that its main competition has vanished but not good enough to warrant an A rank as it still has many of the same issues it had in the past (Close Combat is not a particularly good move to be locked into and it struggles with Rocky Helmet mons like Qwilfish and Skuntank).

Victreebel: B -> B+/A- (Agree)
I could honestly see this going as high as A rank later on, but that's a massive leap from B so I'm only going to advocate for A- at most right now.
Victreebel's a fantastic wallbreaker that sits in a speed tier above Aurorus, Aggron and Jellicent. It abuses all three of these pokemon while also acting as an equally powerful wallbreaker thanks to Z-Leaf Storm blasting away expected checks like Eelektross and Skuntank after one switchin.
Much like the aforementioned wallbreakers it also comes with its own nifty set of resistances. In particular, its Fighting resistance lets it check Gurdurr and Hitmonchan throughout a match thanks to Strength Sap, and its Water resistance helps it better handle Qwilfish and Lanturn. Choice Band/SD are also fantastic wallbreaking sets as Victreebel often baits in specially defensive walls such as Type:Null and Eelektross that immediately fall to a Choice Band/+2 Power Whip. It's forced out pretty easily, but so are our other wallbreakers (and not taking much from Primeape is a big bonus in this respect). It's been steadily increasing in usage and I'm personally very happy to see it.

Beartic: Unranked to D (Disagree)
I disagree with Beartic being ranked. It has its niche on full-hail ice-spam teams but is utterly outclassed outside of it by Alolan Sandslash... and maybe I haven't experienced them enough but I find full-hail teams to be pretty garbage. It's not enough of a niche to warrant ranking. We recently dropped Hippopotas because Sand is unviable and in my mind this is the same situation.

Sandslash-Alola: A to A+
Sandslash is a phenomenal Pokémon right now. It offers role compression thanks to its ability to spread status, set up hazards, spin away hazards etc. all while checking numerous top tier threats like Lilligant, Aurorus and Mesprit. Its offensive set is also very underprepared for right now and alongside Aurorus helps alleviate the need for a scarfer while offering a strong breaker. It's one of the most common pokemon both on ladder and in tournaments (with a 50% usage in the last week of Exhibition and 25% usage for the weeks before it) and it's about time for this mon to rise up to A+.

Persian-Alola: A- to A+
Two subranks is a big leap, but a deserved one. Most of our physical threats don't use speed boosting moves, and the ones that do are pretty slow in the first place (okay, it's mostly just Ursaring and Carracosta). What this means is Persian-Alola can compress the roles of a revenge killer thanks to its phenomenal speed with a large assortment of utility, providing a one-time full heal via Z-Parting Shot, a strong physically defensive pivot thanks to its respectable bulk and (regular) Parting Shot, as well as a way to check stall in the form of Taunt & Toxic.
To elaborate on the revenge killer aspect, Foul Play allows it to revenge kill the likes of Lycanroc and Pinsir, as well as wallbreakers like Aggron, Stoutland and Dodrio. It even checks a select few of the frailer special attackers such as Jynx, Raichu-Alola and Simisear.
Nasty Plot is also picking up speed, as it's a fantastic cleaner that still maintains the one-time full heal Persian-A is renowned for.

I also agree with Skipkan 's nomination to drop Lycanroc, but there's not much to say that he hasn't already said.

 

[MZ]

It has been a long time. Votes are here

Rises
Lilligant A+ to S
Alolan Sandslash A to A+
Quagsire A- to A
Alolan Persian A- to A
Primeape B+ to A-
Victreebel B to B+
Simisear B to B+
Carbink C to C+
Regice C to C+
Simipour Unranked to D
Bouffalant Unranked to D

Drops
Scyther B+ to B
Spiritomb B+ to B

Rejected Nominations

Gurdurr A to A+
Lycanroc A+ to A
Poliwrath A- to B+
Lurantis B to B-
Golurk B to B-/C+
Golem C+ to B-
Silvally-Ground Unranked to D
Beartic Unranked to D

I think most of the major changes are self-explanatory and got significant amounts of discussion here and on discord (Lilligant, Slash, Persian). Bouffalant was not brought up in the thread but was a mon that gained a bit of traction even before its big exhibition showing, amongst random unranked breakers that need a lot of support it really stands out by having super notable defensive utility with its ability to check our newest S rank. Spiritomb and Scyther were also council nominations, both of them just have extreme issues fitting on teams even if they're mostly fine in practice. Spiritomb's just also really fallen out of favor since it's not especially great at Pursuit trapping right now, particularly when compared to something like Rocky Helmet Skuntank which has loads of utility even after it gets burned by Froslass. For Beartic and Silvally-Ground, I know they're fairly attractive for unranked mons but we found even less reason to use either than something like Simipour, they're seriously lackluster. I've had quite a few instances where I've thought Silvally-Ground could perfectly patch up a team's specific weaknesses, only to try it and realize how bad it was and how much better anything else could be, and Beartic just doesn't need to get used ever lol. If you want more detail on any nomination, feel free to ask in my PMs/the SQSA thread/the PU room/the PU discord.

 

[termi]

I got a bunch of opinions.

Rises:

A -> A+: Regirock is way too consistent to be any lower than A+ in this meta imo. With Eggy-A gone, very little remains that gets "free turns" vs Regirock, and it's as amazing of an SR setter as ever, beating or at least severely crippling nearly every common Defogger and even beating Snowslash 1v1 if it runs Drain Punch. Its resistances and gargantuan bulk allow it to blanket check a huge portion of the tier, including top threats like Kangaskhan, Oricorio, Stoutland, even Lycanroc and Aggron if it's healthy enough.

A- -> A: Easily belongs on the same level as Lanturn. Eelektross is one of those mons that always does something during a battle thanks to its great special bulk with Assault Vest and its impeccable coverage. It softens up defensive mons, it nabs momentum with a powerful Volt Switch, it safely pivots in and out of Oricorio, and acts as an emergency check to most special sweepers and breakers thanks to its lack of weaknesses. As a result, it just fits very snuggly on a ton of offense and balance teams that need a reliable pivot. It also no longer has to worry about giving Exeggutor-A free turns, which is a pretty big deal, so a rise is justified imo.

B+ -> A-: Abomasnow is a great breaker and deserves to be in the A ranks. It has several advantages that distinguishes it from Aurorus as a specially based Ice-type breaker: its Grass typing gives it a useful Water resistance, allowing it to come in on common defensive mons such as Jellicent, Quagsire, Mudsdale, and Lanturn, and thanks to its amazing coverage giving it a free turn means something will most likely take a lot of damage. Its access to Focus Blast gives it a way to OHKO one of the most common Ice resists in the tier in Sandslash-A, and Ice Shard gives it a way to pick off weakened Lilligant and Oricorio among others. Without even going into more niche sets such as Scarf and SD, it's already apparent that Abomasnow is a respectable threat with enough defensive utility and offensive presence to be considered a major threat in the current meta.

C+ -> B: I think Turtonator's current ranking is not reflective of its merits in the current metagame and is simply a holdover from previous metas where Clefairy was omnipresent, Eggy-A existed as pretty direct competition, and its defensive capabilities were not as necessary. It's a dangerous Shell Smash sweeper that can threaten the entire meta with its excellent STAB combo after setting up. Thanks to it being able to break teams with Fire Blast + Draco Meteor (with Dragonium Z) alone, its final moveslot is entirely customizable. Dragon Pulse is an obvious choice for its final slot, giving it a reliable Dragon STAB that does not drop its SpA, but personally I'm a big fan of Substitute, which allows it to block status and safely get extra setup when the user predicts the opponent to sack something to Turtonator's Z-move. Turtonator also has certain defensive benefits that other SS sweepers don't offer: most notably it checks Lilligant without HP Rock or Z-Hyper Beam very reliably, but it also deals with upcoming threat Simisear as well as the ever so annoying Eelektross. Thanks to its resistances and its great natural physical bulk, it also has enough opportunity to set up, even being able to set up on a threat as powerful as CB Stoutland if necessary. It does come with a few issues, most notably its weakness to Stealth Rock and its bad Speed stat, but the former can be fixed with proper team support and the latter isn't too bad since it still outspeeds all relevant non-Scarfed threats after a SS and can't be revenge killed by most common Scarfers without varying degrees of chip damage. Basically, Turtonator's ability to sweep or break many teams with relative ease due to its typing and the resulting pressure it puts on the opponent plus its ability to deal with some threats that are difficult to check makes it a really solid mon in the current meta, and I think it more than deserves to end up in the B ranks.

Electrode (the lil sprite for this thing isn't in the OP and I can't be fucked to look it up) Unranked -> Ranked: I don't really know what rank is appropriate for this thing but it's arguably the best screens setter for hyperoffense, boasting access to Taunt and a pivoting move and outspeeding all hazard leads as well as Persian-A which tends to be a problem for this kind of team. How high it deserves to be ranked probably really just depends on how viable one considers dual screens HO at this moment which is hard to estimate but it's at least as viable as many other niche HO playstyles so yeah, rank it imo. There's a replay of my week 6 Exhibition game if you need that sort of thing.

Drops:

S -> A: Skuntank is undeniably a good Pokemon, but I really can't find a good reason for it to be considered a top 3 mon in the current meta whatsoever. As a Defogger, it's not the most reliable, faltering against most SR setters that aren't Mesprit, and while Mesprit remains a common mon and it certainly doesn't hurt to have a reliable way to damage it in Rocky Helmet Skuntank, it's not quite as omnipresent as it used to be. Teams often forgo Mesprit as their primary Fighting-type check for several Ghost-types that commonly get past Skuntank with a combination of Colbur Berry + Will-o-Wisp, making Skuntank + Fighting-type not quite as surefire of a combination as it used to be. Finally, Skuntank faces strong competition as a Dark-type from Persian-A, which offers a very appealing set of perks for many an offensive team such as an amazing speed tier, a STAB that is not commonly resisted, and Parting Shot to nab momentum and give one of the many top setup sweepers in the tier setup opportunity. Skuntank simply lacks that splashability factor that used to make it an S rank threat, so I think a significant drop is long overdue (in case you're in doubt, ask yourself the following: if Skuntank were currently not in S rank, would you be inclined to nom it up or not?)

A -> B+: Dodrio is absolutely a very dangerous Pokemon offensively, but I just don't think the benefits it offers are great enough to justify a slot on most teams when it offers almost zero defensive utility and requires good hazard control plus careful play (after all, spamming Brave Bird or clicking Jump Kick on the wrong turn gets you killed). Add to this the fact that it being on a team most likely means that you have to forgo Oricorio-Pom-Pom, a Flying-type with way more utility due to its ability and resistances, and it just becomes apparent that Dodrio is neither reliable enough as a breaker nor easy to fit on a great amount of teams, and a mon that does not live up to either of these standards does not belong in the A ranks imo.

B- -> D/Unranked: Straight up borderline unviable garbage. SD sets flat out lose to any team with a Normal- and/or Dark-type aka every other team (and still are too weak to break much even when it catches a decent matchup), Defog sets don't beat any SR setters not named Mesprit so you're better off running another Silvally or a Skuntank, and pivot sets, while possibly the most viable, are still very weak and still lose to Dark- and Normal-types. I used this thing on a dual screens team as a fast spinblocker with a setup move, first time I felt it did something another Ghost-type in the tier couldn't do, and it still sucked. There's barely any reason to use this over one of the plethoria of actually good Ghost-types this tier currently has on offer, it technically has stuff it can do that its competition can't but it doesn't do it well enough to be anywhere in the same ranks as actually good Pokemon.

By the way, is there any reason as to why we still have a D rank? Other tiers exclusively have it as a "ranked because of usage but not viable" rank and idk why we still use it as a real rank when pretty much all of the Pokemon in it either seem good enough to end up in the C ranks (especially some of the stuff we ranked in there) or their niche is so minuscule that they're never really worth considering in practice.

 

[PTF]

I respectfully disagree with Robert Alfons' nomination of Skuntank from S to A+. I've summed up the points in your arguments as follows:

Mr. Alfons' arguments:

1. As a Defogger, it's not the most reliable, faltering against most SR setters that aren't Mesprit.
2. The combination of fighting type + Skuntank is not as surefire as it used to be because teams are running Ghost-types that commonly get past it with a combination of Colbur + Wisp.
3. Finally, Skuntank faces strong competition as a Dark-type from Persian-A.
4. Skuntank simply lacks that splashability factor that used to make it an S rank threat:

Rebuttals:

1.
Hazard removal in the current tier is no doubt important considering how effective spikes is and how great our spikes setters are; Froslass and Qwil. These setters are commonly used in combination with a spinblocker namely Jellicent, Lass herself, Silvally or even Golurk to ensure that hazards stay on the field. This can be examined in the structure of these teams in the replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pu-425061 (Winter seasonal match where Rose and Muds set the spikes and rocks respectively and Jellicent spinblocked)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-862686510 (robjr v Ktütverde: where Rob had the combo of Qwil + Golurk but struggled against defog Silvally Dragon)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pu-424349 (Mr Alfons v TJ yourself at turn 22 using Golurk to keep your the spikes that Qwil set on the field)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-863246859 (LordST using a combo of Sableye and Qwilfish.)

The best spinner in the tier, Alolaslash, fails to deal with common spinblockers including and not limited to Jellicent, Sableye and Golurk. Skuntank on the other hand can more successfully remove hazards without being stopped except by Taunt. Furthermore, you argue that it isn't the most reliable defogger but looking at all the relevant PU defoggers (Swanna, Lurantis, Articuno, Altaria, Silvally and Rotom-F), it's arguably the best one we have. If anything, it's arguably the best hazard remover in the tier facing strong competition from Alolaslash.

2.

Jellicent and Froslass are the only two relevant Ghost-Types that use a combination of Colbur + Will-O-Wisp in the meta. This definitely pressures team that have used the core of Skuntank + Fighting Mon. However, I don't think that warrants the drop of Skuntank from S to A+. Relevant here is that Skuntank runs a special set that is not only effective but doesn't care about a burn. Finally, the fact that a core is not effective as it once was is not a discredit to the viability of Skuntank but rather a discredit to the traditional core of things like Skuntank + Gurdurr or Skuntank + Primeape.

3.
I agree with you. It does face strong competition as a dark type mon against Persian-A but the two perform completely different roles depending on their respective sets. Persian-A is good, no doubt, but it's utility is not only different to Skuntank but perhaps even inferior given that it has no access to priority, can not remove hazards, does not have access to Pursuit, does not remove toxic spikes upon entry, is more predictable and does not have the blessing of Aftermath. It is clear that Skuntank is more useful if you compare the the utility of creating momentum and setting up as a sweeper to removing hazards, using Pursuit, using priority in Sucker Punch and threatening offensive mons like Stoutland with Priority + Rocky Helmet + Aftermath.

4.
Skuntank is still very splashable because of how useful it is to any team. With four viable sets (Physical, Special, Band/AoA and Scarf) it is one of the most versatile mons we have. It's typing alone is so good and makes it so easy to fit on teams - resisting Dark, Grass, Ghost, Poison and being immune to Psychic. Add the ability to run support moves like Taunt and Defog and other good combos like Pursuit and Sucker Punch, Acid Spray and Dark Pulse; it's hard to see why not to splash Skuntank on almost every team.

Other comments

Mr Alfons has inspired us to ask ourselves the following: if Skuntank were currently not in S rank, would you be inclined to nom it up or not?

I personally would but I would leave that for other users to comment on. I just wanted to dedicate this post to respectfully rebut your arguments as to why Skuntank should be nommed from S -> A+.

 

[Ktütverde]

Hello! I would like to make some nominations and react to the already posted ones. Also I would like to mention other users in my post and:
1) I will @ you if I agree with you/say something positive about you ;
2) won't @ you if I disagree with you/say something negative ;
simply because I would appreciate people doing 1 with my name and wouldn't enjoy at all being tagged for something negative. Besides people often feel personally attacked when it is actually their opinions which are attacked, though I guess we all know that. So don't overreact if my opinions look excessively exotic or whatever, there already have been clashes of opinions that weren't very nice, that's why I'm saying this. Sorry for this intro.

First of all, reacting to other nominations.

I agree with:

UR -> D : Even though I disagree with Robert when he says "dual screens HO [...] it's at least as viable as many other niche HO playstyles ", Electrode should be ranked imo because 1) it is the best screener, if not the only viable screener in PU 2) it has been used quite succesfully by SEVERAL players, including Musharnanigans , uhuhuhu7 , Robert Alfons and myself (maybe others too, I just talk about what I know). My point is, whether screens are worth it or not, electrode is simply the go-to screener, and that's enough to give it a place in the VR. However it has never been used succesfully in tournaments, so I wouldn't go higher than D.

In other words, if you want to use screens, choose electrode, not meowstic please. Why? Because meowstic cannot do anything vs defog skuntank, but most importantly it doesnt have pivoting moves, resulting in a loss of momentum when it comes to bringing in your sweeper. Electrode is simply the ultimate screen setter since the release of SM: access to both screen moves+aftermath+taunt+explosion/voltswitch+150 speed is just more than what a screener can dream about.

A -> A+ : Now that eggy is gone, using regirock isnt a problem anymore. As pointed out by Robert, drainpunch regirock isn't bad at all and allows it to pressure sandslash-A (and stoutland, kanga, aurorus, aggron, lycanrock...), so regirock happens to be the go-to check to these mons+oricorios/dodrio/simisear. Definitely a great mon again. Albeit niche, t-wave and curse are nice options to make sure u can setup rocks vs altaria stall notably, which helps certain teams a lot.

A+ -> A : just read Skipkan 's post, he pretty much sums it up perfectly. Relies on its Z move, struggles to threaten teams since many have gurdurr/scarfape/persian/quagsire/mudsdale/regirock, also it needs to OHKO stuff otherwise it will be the one Ko'd. Lycan is just not splashable or consistent like pompom and stoutland, it needs a strong physical breaker +spikes to work well as far as I know. Sash leads aren't that bad but not A+ rank worthy either. Z-move+rocks have been seen a bit but remain super niche, you will rarely use your Z-slot on a frail pokemon that must also get rocks up.

I disagree with :

S -> A : I hope this is a typo mistake, because dropping skuntank of 2 subranks makes no sense, we are talking about a S rank mon. I will therefore consider it was a mistake. What about skuntank from S to A+ ?

Skunk in the current meta

I would first like to say that (imo) skuntank's role isn't to defog, that is just an added bonus, and even if it didn't have defog, I would still consider it S rank. Skuntank's is to start with the best counterplay to mesprit available in the tier. People like to overlook it and use spdef-sandslash carelessly, but that just works vs healingwish defensive mesprit and scarf. Offensive variants blow through sandslash and can annihilate teams. Persian is cool, but cannot be compared to skuntank: less splashable, needs a Z move, doesn't trap mesprit.

In addition to being the go-to mesprit check, skuntank is also one of the few PU mons, if not the only, which is a "0 risk high reward" mon. The combination of suckerpunch+poisonjab+pursuit/crunch+aftermath+30% poison is ridiculously hard to deal with, and will always damage teams lacking aggron. Even stall teams struggle with the poison induced by pjab. Skuntank is also one-if not the only- best prio user in the tier, able to eliminate jynx, dodrio, raichu-A, lycanrock, especially with the threat of aftermath+rockyhelmet. Basically, skuntank exerts offensive pressure on most teams due to its stab combo (only steeltypes and qwilfish can reliably switch into it) + is a splashable "innards out" pokemon. Even down to 1%, it can take down a foe with suckerpunch+aftermath+helmet, which is insane and stops most sweepers.

Lastly, let's not forget that, just like mesprit, skuntank is a very versatile mon: special sets aren't good vs offense, but can annihilate defensive builds with sludgebomb/acidspray+taunt. Choice scarf, albeit niche, is a nice revengekiller able to use an emergency defog/pursuit.

Also note that Skuntank's speed stat alone is enough to scare away pokemons like mesprit, stoutland, shiftry, absol, raticate-A, hitmonchan, while its typing means that persian's, lilligant, lurantis and roselia's life will be tough. For example, non-Z lilligant is unreliable vs skuntank, and Z hyperbeam mostly targets skunk and pompom.

Its best set imo:

Innards out (Skuntank) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
- Crunch / Fire Blast / Taunt / Defog

A -> B+ : I think you should avoid making such subrank jumps for A/S mons, that's fine with B and below because they dont matter much in the meta and are often left undiscussed for a while which can justify big leaps. Dodrio from A -> A- is workable, but that requires more argumenting, which I will leave to other users because I don't feel like being able to talk about it since I don't use it much.


My own nominations and nomination suggestions:

A+ -> S : ngl, I've always considered it as a S threat since it is just a splashable and 0-risk-high-reward mon like skuntank and mesprit. Wow+hex+taunt+spikes+icebeam+cursedbody+colbur/Z/LO is a nightmare to face. This might be a bit painful for Taskr, but this replay just shows how stupid froslass can be: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pu-425306

Also I'm posting this after the topic was brought up by other tier council members, I'm worried about having 4 S ranks, but I consider froslass as clearly better and more consitent than the other A+ ranks.

A+ -> A : I have watched a lot of tournament games, and this mon is nowhere to be seen. Specs is totally overrated, unreliable breaker (that cannot touch stall too), easy to trap etc. Defensive colbur is its best imo, but hard to put in teams since it gives free switches to the likes of lilligant, roselia, eelektross, lanturn, stoutland. It also struggles vs gurdurr and T-punch chan, so its only merit is to wall primeape and spinblock vs sandslash-A, although I would rather use froslass as my ghost+spiker, especially because sandslash can rarely afford running iron head/knock off

Up one subrank : Primeape is the best scarfer in the tier, fairly splashable, deters parting shot and defog, resists lycanrock's prio, and is hard to check because mesprit gets uturn+trapped, weezing is gone, qwilfish boosts its attack via defiant, oricorio's die to stone edge etc. That's partly why I would like to have gurdurr in A+ again, best primeape check in offense/BO, eggy is gone so it is less risky to use it, its role compression is ridiculous: machpunch stops set up sweepers (rain, hail, omastar, SD darktypes, lycanrock etc), its bulk makes it the most splashable stoutland check with regirock. Please stop judging gurdurr on its sweeping capabilities, try to see it as a fat physical tank too.

New meta gurdurr

Your team doesnt have a pursuit trapper/is unlikely to be able to support a gurdurr sweep? Think differently and consider that you don't need to support gurdurr, but that gurdurr supports ur team (splashable sandslash-A, ape, stout, kanga, aggron etc check). A good example to explain it is this set I used to consider as a joke but actually isnt bad, suggested by fellow user HJAD :

The tank (Gurdurr) @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Toxic

Doesn't sweep with bulkup, but cripples all its switchins (mesprit, sableye, pompom, quagsire). Definitely a set you should try out.

Other than that, I would like people to talk about:
-Dropping raichu-A, swanna, poliwrath, hitmonchan, pinsir, bellossom, spiritomb, combusken
-Raising roselia, golurk
-Ranking Simisage (s/o ShuckleDeath for starting the sage hype, big fan).

Simisage sets I think are worth being ranked:

Hide

Mixed (Simisage) @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Superpower
- Gunk Shot / Knock Off
- Rock Slide / Knock Off

NP (Simisage) @ Normalium Z / Grassium Z
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Hyper Beam / Leaf Storm

Scarf (Simisage) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Superpower
- Gunk Shot
- Rock Slide

-Finally, suspecting Lilligant. I reckon that it is getting really annoying since the 3 attacks and Z-cleric sets have become popular. I think PU will be perfectly fine without lilligant, especially when we have good-but-not-broken grasses like victreebel, roselia, ludicolo, and I hope simisage too soon. I don't know what would be the outcome of this suspect, especially since we just banned eggy, but I'm confident Lilli will end up being banned for being unhealthy at some point (just look at how cool the meta is without pyroar and with simisear, a perfectly balanced pyroar).


Alright, this has been a bit long but worth the effort, I hope people will keep posting in this thread with courtesy and objectivity. Thanks for reading and have a nice day/night depending on where you live ^^

 

[Greybaum]

First off, the nice boy on the cover art has been given the wrong grade and his work should be re-marked.

That aside, time to make some noms.

Electrode: Unranked > D
Meowstic-M: D > Unranked
Nothing's really changed since my last nom for Electrode, but numerous people have also shown their support for this mon so I figured I should throw my hat back into the ring. See my post here if you want a full rundown, but the short version is:
Electrode outspeeds every nonscarfer in the tier, has the bulk to take hits, has access to two pivoting moves in the form of Volt Switch and Explosion, and most importantly, Taunt, blocking Defog and Toxic to give your sweepers an easy time setting up.
In comparison, Meowstic has Prankster and Yawn/Thunder Wave. Prankster is nice, but isn't much of an edge considering Electrode's absurd speed and respectable bulk. Yawn is a good move on paper, but in practice you want the full turns of Dual Screens. Meowstic sucks momentum, does not have any way of countering Defog from the likes of Silvally and Skuntank and really has no business being ranked.

Smeargle: C- > D
Shuckle: C- > D
Sticky Web is a terrible archetype. It has no way of punishing Defog outside of Pawniard and Primeape (neither of which do this well), suffers due to the prevalance of Qwilfish and Froslass leads, and has very few good punishers. It's also worth noting that a lot of our top mons don't even particularly care, with Oricorio, Dodrio, Mesprit etc. bypassing it, Primeape abusing it, and mons like Lycanroc and Persian-Alola being so fast it barely affects them (at least, they still outspeed Specs Jelly and the like). Neither Shuckle nor Smeargle should be considered unless you specifically want to make a team based around Webs.

I also agree with Alfons that C-/D need to be reworked. To be more specific, I've always understood D rank to be "mons that have a unique niche that can be viable on certain teams but would not be considered outside of said niche". This works for Beheeyem (the only viable OTR mon) and Electrode Meowstic-M (HO screens setter) but I don't think this applies to some of the other mons. This is also why I'm nomming Smeargle and Shuckle down, but I really think the whole subrank needs to be freshened up. At the very least, I'd like some clearer guidelines on what makes something C- instead of D.

D Rank

Cacturne, Murkrow, Rampardos and Wishiwashi do not have niches worth using, as they're all outclassed by Shiftry, Absol, Aggron/Lycanroc and Literally Any Trick Room Sweeper respectively. Wishiwashi in particular I don't understand being ranked; there's no better water type on Trick Room, sure, but Trick Room doesn't need a water type. We don't have Camerupt or Marowak ranked either, and they're equally good (if not better) mons. Now that Exeggutor-Alola's gone I've also seen Trick Room teams using Jellicent as a replacement self-setter, giving it some extra competition.

I'm a little less sure of Basculin, Simipour and Duosion; they aren't outright worse than their counterparts but that's because they're in a different role entirely. I think they should either be considered inferior and unranked, or considered viable in their own right as a breaker/wincon and raised to the C ranks.

Dusknoir, Silvally-Poison, Ditto and Bouffalant are all equal in their roles of "Can fulfill a useful niche and be viable in 1/200 teams", as is Pyukumuku who should probably also be dropped down since it's only viable on stall teams. I also think this applies to Muk, Natu, and Toucannon but I'll admit I haven't used any of these in quite a while.

Don't treat this as a full nomination so much as it is a call for the Council to take another look at the lower ranks; they haven't been touched in some time outside of the recent Bouffalant rank.

Froslass: A+ > S
Skuntank and Sandslash-Alola, our best hazard control, both hate being burned. Neither can spin/defog against it due to its ghost typing/access to Taunt respectively, and it's near impossible to keep Spikes off the field when this Pokémon is around. It's a big leap for the S tier to go from 2 mons to 4 mons in the last few weeks, but I don't think it diminishes the meaning of the rank at all, especially when if anything Skuntank and Mesprit have gotten worse (though still better than the A+ rank). Otherwise, Ktut's said everything I wanted to say. Froslass really never fails to put in work.

Regirock: A > A+
Now that people are adapting to Lilligant on every team, it seems the biggest threat to balance in particular is Stoutland.
Regirock is one of three Pokémon that can consistently switch into Stoutland (the other two being Tangela and Carracosta) and the only one that resides in the A ranks, due to its ability to act as a blanket check to physical attackers while supporting the team with Stealth Rock.
Exeggutor-Alola is also gone, which means it isn't giving up free turns quite so often as before.

Drampa: B+ > A-
Lastly, Drampa should probably rise. It's no longer competing with Exeggutor-Alola and it serves as a nice offensive check to the ever-present Lilligant.

Speaking of, while this probably isn't the right thread, I don't think Lilligant is worthy of being suspected just yet. With the absence of Exeggutor-A, mons like Drampa are picking up steam, revenge killers like Primeape have less to worry about, and defensive cores are able to better adapt to top threats like Lilligant and Stoutland. I personally think it'd be better to keep an eye on things for a while and see if it's still suspect-worthy after a few weeks of play.

If I think of anything else, I'll save it until after the next council votes. Those guys have too much to vote on already.

 

[Katy]

I think Shuckle and Smeargle should both drop, I didn't saw webs ina phat minute being used as an archetype on the ladder or as a team structure for tour games.
These two, which niche they offer is simply too small, to be kept in the C- ranks, they both fit better in the D rankings.

Froslass to S is a nomination I support fully. Froslass saw a lot of use in the recent PU Curcuit and I use it on the ladder too to a huge amount and it is reaklly good in the current metagame.
Froslass is a really good spikes setter, has also options in Taunt/WoW/D-Bond/Toxic and its STABs in Shadow Ball / Ice Beam. It is a very realiable spikes setter because its ghost typing allows it to spin block too. A lot about Froslass was already said, but I just wannna point out, that S rank is a better spot for it.

Drampa A- oh yeah, this normal/dragon has such a good STAB combination, hard hitting moves and coverage options and is probably one of the best wallbreakers currently, with being able to dent phat holes into an opposing team.

Skunktank stay S
Gurdurr and Primape one subrank up yes

Abomasnow B+ to A- Abomasnow has a lot of things going for being a one potential breaker. It has priority in Ice Shard, can run Earthquake for Steel Types, Giga Drain for recovery and Snow Warning givin' it 100% Blizzar accuracy. I think Abomasnow due to the amazing dual STAB combination deserves a rise to A-.

 

[PH]

Hello, first post on the VR, please don't hate me if i say smth stupid lul.
I just have a couple of opinions I'd like to add (and a nom of my own)

Froslass A+ -> S: Agree
As uhuhuhu7 and Ktut said, Froslass is able to deal with both Skuntank (if physical) and Sandslash-Alola, the best hazard removal in the tier, while also being able to set up its own hazards without having to worry about many Pokemon due to its great defensive typing and spinblock/taunt opposing hazard removal. With access to Will-O-Wisp, Destiny Bond, Taunt, a good speed tier and Cursed Body, Froslass is an incredible choice for a Spikes setter and fast taunt support. The last point I'd like to mention is Froslass' other set. Offensive Froslass, although not as good as Bulky Spikes, is able to do damage and set up spikes consistently. If holding Icium Z, offensive Froslass is able to beat Skuntank which is vital if it is not running Colbur berry.

Eelektross A- -> A: Agree
Eelektross is an incredible pivot at the moment. It's incredible coverage of Flamethrower, Giga Drain, Volt Swtch, Thunderbolt/Discharge and Knock Off is sure to have an answer to most Pokemon and if not, it can simply pivot out with Volt Switch into something that can deal with the opposing Pokemon. As well as it's coverage, it's a great special sponge, tanking hits from Specs Aurorus, Specs Mesprit and +2 Lilligant due to its decent bulk and Assault Vest. Another thing Eelektross has going for it is the fact that it has no weaknesses. The combination of Electric+Levitate allows Eel to switch into Pokemon without having to worry about a type disadvantages.

Swanna A- -> B+
In the current meta, Sandslash-Alola is on at least 1/3 of all teams and is a very good setter and spinner. Swanna lets in Sandslash-Alola for free, allowing it to spin freely, set hazards or simply attack the Swanna. As hazard removal, Swanna should not let arguably the most prominent rocker at the moment in for free. As well as Sandslash-Alola, it is simply unable to touch Oricorio Pom-Pom, Eelektross, Lanturn and, if not Z, loses to Stoutland which are all very common. This paired with its appalling defensive stats and fairly useless abilities make it a B+ worthy Pokemon. However, Swanna is still able to beat Lilligant even after a Quiver Dance and other threats such as Gurdurr and Primeape. This is due to its Choice Scarf set along with its good speed tier and good STAB choices.

Calcs.

252 SpA Swanna Scald vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Sandslash-Alola: 99-117 (27.9 - 33%) -- 80.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Sandslash-Alola: 67-80 (18.9 - 22.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 50-59 (14.1 - 16.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sandslash-Alola Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 135-159 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 92-108 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 92-108 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 77-91 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO
+1 0 SpA Oricorio-Pom-Pom Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swanna: 283-334 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Oricorio-Pom-Pom Revelation Dance vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swanna: 616-732 (211.6 - 251.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Swanna Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 81-96 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 69-82 (18.4 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 54-65 (14.4 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Eelektross Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swanna: 708-832 (243.2 - 285.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Swanna Scald vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 36-42 (9.2 - 10.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 48-57 (12.2 - 14.5%) -- possible 7HKO
4 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 89-105 (22.7 - 26.8%) -- 41.3% chance to 4HKO
172+ SpA Lanturn Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swanna: 532-628 (182.8 - 215.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
172+ SpA Lanturn Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swanna: 604-712 (207.5 - 244.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Stoutland: 150-177 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 127-150 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Swanna Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Stoutland: 109-129 (35 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 355-418 (121.9 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 487-574 (167.3 - 197.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(if scald burn was predicted)

 

[gum]

Swanna A- -> B+
In the current meta, Sandslash-Alola is on at least 1/3 of all teams and is a very good setter and spinner. Swanna lets in Sandslash-Alola for free, allowing it to spin freely, set hazards or simply attack the Swanna. As hazard removal, Swanna should not let arguably the most prominent rocker at the moment in for free. As well as Sandslash-Alola, it is simply unable to touch Oricorio Pom-Pom, Eelektross, Lanturn and, if not Z, loses to Stoutland which are all very common. This paired with its appalling defensive stats and fairly useless abilities make it a B+ worthy Pokemon. However, Swanna is still able to beat Lilligant even after a Quiver Dance and other threats such as Gurdurr and Primeape. This is due to its Choice Scarf set along with its good speed tier.

Calcs.

252 SpA Swanna Scald vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Sandslash-Alola: 99-117 (27.9 - 33%) -- 80.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Sandslash-Alola: 67-80 (18.9 - 22.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola: 50-59 (14.1 - 16.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sandslash-Alola Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 135-159 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 92-108 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 92-108 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 77-91 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO
+1 0 SpA Oricorio-Pom-Pom Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swanna: 283-334 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Oricorio-Pom-Pom Revelation Dance vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swanna: 616-732 (211.6 - 251.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Swanna Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 81-96 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 69-82 (18.4 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 54-65 (14.4 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Eelektross Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swanna: 708-832 (243.2 - 285.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Swanna Scald vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 36-42 (9.2 - 10.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 48-57 (12.2 - 14.5%) -- possible 7HKO
4 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 89-105 (22.7 - 26.8%) -- 41.3% chance to 4HKO
172+ SpA Lanturn Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swanna: 532-628 (182.8 - 215.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
172+ SpA Lanturn Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Swanna: 604-712 (207.5 - 244.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Stoutland: 150-177 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 127-150 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Swanna Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Stoutland: 109-129 (35 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 355-418 (121.9 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 487-574 (167.3 - 197.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(if scald burn was predicted)

I agree with the other noms but I have to disagree with this one, or rather the arguments brought. I really don't see how snowslash is a problem when you beat it thanks to Scald + Roost and absolutely no one is going to switch their snowslash into a Swanna, mostly because of the burn chance and because it has no reliable recovery. While it's true that it can't touch Eel / Lanturn, (the latter of which is rather uncommon rn, and it can still cripple them with a burn) how is Pom-Pom even a switchin ?? Scald 2HKOes after rocks, same thing with Hurricane + Z-Hurricane. I think that saying Swanna loses to Stout is really unfair, especially when it can't even switch in. Saying that it's bad because of Stoutland is like saying "Lilligant sucks, Stoutland beats it if it's not boosted !", for example. I also think that you're underselling Swanna's defensive utility, it's true that it doesn't have the best defensive typing but it can come in on threats like Gurdurr and non-Rock Slide Mudsdale. The Choice Scarf set's primary utility isn't to Defog, it's only an added bonus. I'd also argue that this set is better than it was some metas ago with the influx of Primeape, Simisear, and Lilligant. The offensive defogger set is a really good defogger and I'd argue that it's a better defogger than Skunk. It can reliably defog as no Spikes / Stealth Rocks setter can switch into it and it forces them out, which I think you're underselling. The current meta is full of hazards, and Swanna is a remover that actually beats most, if not all, of the viable hazards setters. The wall of calc was rather unnecessary, ofc Lanturn and Eel ohko it. I don't really care if Swanna drops or not but just wanted to address some of your points.


Now, for my own nom

Stoutland A+ -> S

This is a pretty controversial nom but I think Stoutland is S-rank worthy. We all know what Stoutland does, it hits stupidly hard, has a decent bulk and has close to no counters. Stoutland restricts building to the point that you need either Gurdurr, Regirock or Tangela on every single team to make sure it does not get a kill whenever it comes in. Gurdurr is 3HKOed or 2HKOed after Spikes while Regirock hates switching into Superpower. There's also shakier defensive answers, such as Alolan Sandslash and Mudsdale, but the former gets OHKOed by Superpower while the latter is 3HKOed by Return and doesn't really force stout out unless it's weakened. Offensive means of dealing with Stoutland such as Rocky Helmet Skuntank are more common, which only proves how menacing Stoutland is. Slower builds like Snowslash type of balance builds are more common than they used to be, and these heavily struggle against Stoutland. What I think is especially dangerous about Stoutland is how it pairs so well with so many top tier threats. Lilligant takes advantage of Regirock and Mudsdale while Stoutland eats Roselia and weakens Alolan Sandslash for Lilligant by simply spamming its STAB. Oricorio-Pom-Pom appreciates Regirock being weakened while it can check Gurdurr for Stoutland. I won't do an entire list but it also pairs stupidly well with things like Froslass and Lycanroc. Stoutland is ridiculous and shapes the meta, restricts building and is as good as the actual S-ranks, which is why I think it deserves to be S-rank.

 

[BigPelf34]

Electabuzz Unranked -> C

Crowdpleaser (Electabuzz) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Discharge
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Psychic/ Focus Blast

Now at first glace, I know people are going to laugh or mock. But, Electabuzz is actually a really viable PU pokemon for several reasons: it's an excellent volt-turn answer, it's shockingly bulky and can wall and cripple most physical threats in this tier, and it's the star player on my team ranked 23 on ladder. I pair this mon with wallbreakers like Specs Haunter, LO Kang, Poliwrath, etc. . who appreciate speed control to clean up.

1. Electabuzz is a viable pivot in PU.
Volt turn is so common in PU, and Electabuzz's resistance to Volt Switch, ability to tank Physical hits + a 30% chance to paralyze with Static, and its own ability to Volt Switch out characterize its viability in PU. Static also makes this thing a really nice answer to Rapid Spinners like Hitmonchan.
Buzz is at its best when you can switch it into a physical attacker, make him risk a para, and then Volt Switch out into a wallbreaker for a free kill.

2. This mon is a terrific anti-meta pokemon that walls and cripples so many top tier physical threats in PU, while being able to take special hits too.
Examples include:
Skuntank: 252 Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 70-84 (20.9 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO (if you use Discharge, there's a 51% chance that Skuntank gets Para'd at the end of the turn).

Kangaskhan: 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 141-166 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Scyther: 252 Atk Choice Band Scyther U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 103-123 (30.8 - 36.8%) -- 68.2% chance to 3HKO.
0 SpA Electabuzz Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 200-236 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

More Calcs

Mesprit: 0 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Electabuzz: 76-91 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- 54.2% chance to 4HKO.
0 Atk Mesprit U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 36-43 (10.7 - 12.8%) -- possible 8HKO (risking Para)

Aggron: 252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 241-285 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Electabuzz Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 500-592 (177.9 - 210.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Primeape: 252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 114-135 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Alolan Sandslash:
+2 252 Atk Sandslash-Alola Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 156-184 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO

It can handle Special hits, too.
Lilligant:
+4 252 SpA Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Electabuzz: 249-294 (74.5 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Plus, it has to fear Vital Spirit if it wants to use Sleep Powder)

Aurorus:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Electabuzz: 186-220 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage
0 SpA Electabuzz Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aurorus: 356-420 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


3. Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-866230839 this matchup is against the number 6 ranked player- I wouldn't have won without Buzz tanking so many hits at the end.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-866166627
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-866258135



Before you look and dismiss this nom, I implore you to throw this thing in a team- preferably an offensive/ balance team- and watch how well it performs.

 

[Ktütverde]

Hi again, let's keep this thread as active as possible!

Just want to react to the previous posts:

-I agree with dropping swanna.

Gum is right in poiting out that scald+roost can take spdef sandslash down quite easily. However, as PH said, it needs at least 4 scalds to do so. Problem is that swanna is so frail that when it needs to RK something, it has to go for the KO and use hurricane, which can let spdef sandslash switchin and heal with leftovers. Also snowslash should be using toxic, which is super annoying for swanna. Swanna definitely counters non-toxic sandslash, but I don't see a reason not to use toxic (that reason being that u are running both spin and rocks which isn't a great idea).

However swanna just happens to be ridiculously frail, weak to rocks, and unviable without a Z move or choice scarf. Given that it isn't a breaker, I would consider using Z on swanna as a waste most of the time. LO swanna just misses hurricanes and gets worn down super quickly, nobody uses it and that makes sense. Scarf has a niche to revengekill primeape scarf and lilligant, but faces heavy competition from scyther, which is bulkier, resists lilligant's gigadrain and can generate momentum via uturn earlygame. Dodrio scarf is also a solid scarfer, and we can definitely compare it with swanna since Bravebird is their most reliable stab when it comes to revengekilling.

If we also take into account how common lanturn and eelektross are, I see little to no reason to use swanna, it just seems super matchup-based and even in "good" MUs it fails to Ko stuff that dodrio would KO, such as lanturn/eel with stab return and stoutland with jump kick. A scarfer that isn't reliable in any game and can even lead to a loss of momentum shouldn't be in A- . And as I said before, I see the Z swanna as a pure waste, hard to justify it over oricorio-pompom.


-I disagree with:

1) raising eelektross.

Eel is a pokemon with almost no counters, the only reliable switchins being drampa, hitmonchan, silvally-dragon, opposing eelektrosses, and audino. However, the lack of weaknesses isn't really a windfall when you are so slow. It checks swanna, oricorios and mudsdale very well. But that's pretty much everything it does well. People don't even bother using an "eelektross" check because everything can check it or weaken it, especially when rocks are up. I find it especially hard to justify over lanturn which provides the team with a fire/water/ice/flying resist and a voltswitch blocker. While lanturn doesn't seem that threatening, it completely stops oricorios, simisear and jellicent, proceeds to recover health with leftovers+protect, and burns/toxices/ gains momentum via voltswitch. Different mons sure (especially vs mudsdale), but lanturn has so much going for it that it is hard to justify eelektross as your electric pivot, unless u lack offensive presence, already have ice/fire/water resists, or really need something for quagsire/mudsdale.

2) Stoutland for S.

I'm partly against this because 5 S ranks is way too much. However, I will not take this fact into account.

The definition of a S rank that I use is "S rank contains Pokémon that define a particular tier, being able to perform a role (or more) extremely well and lack glaring flaws which prevent them from being effective in said roles. " (https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue31/forum) Defensively +offensively speaking, mesprit, skuntank and froslass fulfill these criteria perfectly, ie you can pretty much use them in any team and they will always put in work (unless u run the bad sets s/o scarf froslass and such). Offensively speaking, not only does lilligant virtually have no counterplay due to Z hyperbeam beating everything that tanks gigadrain, except super fat spdef walls and sandslash which loses to Hpfire anyway, but it also has the surprise factor going for it (even though I don't find non-Hyperbeam sets very scary).

So does stoutland also fulfill the criteria? Diversity, no, but that's not important if its only set is great. Performing its role extremely well? I wouldn't say so. It sounds like using gurdurr or regirock is a liability, when they are actually super splashable, whether stoutland is in the tier or not. I agree with tangela not being the best choice in most teams, but it is still a good mon able to check many more things -actually, everything physically offensive-. Stoutland is also slow, forced out by the best PU scarfer, primeape, and not being super splashable, especially because it requires durable partners able to check gurdurr/primeape throughout the entire game, needs to be paired with a solid rock check to prevent aggron/omastar/carracosta from taking advantage of it, and also needs speed control, which further limits teambuilding since it's best fast partners like lycanrock, persian-A and scarf primeape stack fighting weaknesses.

Stout is an excellent mon, but definitely not splashable. I don't think that gurdurr and regi being excellent mons means that stout is less good, it still clicks frustration without much risk, that's why I will consider that it doesn't deserve the S rank because it isn't splashable (which might be totally wrong, but most stoutland teams are blatantly slow, weak to gurdurr/ape or unable to cover other threats like rain, simisear and lilligant). As an example you can check my team in the Sample teams thread, it is fairly slow and needs 3 fighting checks to be really safe from opposing gurdurrs/primeapes, + is weak to opposing spikes-based teams. I'm not saying my team is the best stoutland team, but I just want to show that stoutland cannot be used carelessly if you want to avoid reverse wallbreaking/sweeping.
Stoutland sample team: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pu-sample-teams-and-resources-thread.3611496/#post-7503186

PS: there are rumours about stoutland being broken. Whether it is broke or not, don't forget that a broken mon doesn't have to be S rank. I will play the devil's advocate: "I find stoutland unhealthy not because it forces me to use regirock/gurdurr which are excellent mons, but because 1) it gets free kills vs teams lacking these mons (even if such teams arent that common) and 2) even when I have regirock or gurdurr, they do stop stoutland but often take heavy damage in the process."

Thank you for reading. I never said stoutland was broken or bad, I just tried to have an objective view on the topic, my main point being that it isn't S rank worthy.

 

[m3po]

First of all, I disagree with the nom to drop Dodrio to A- or B+. To this day I find this thing to be pretty terrifying if I don't have a Rock-type on my team. You never know what set it will run: Choice Band, Choice Scarf, or Swords Dance; all of them have their own uses and merits. It's sheer power and blistering speed partially detracts from its abysmal bulk, as it can likely OHKO or 2HKO the things that threaten it. Below are some calcs:

dodrio's power

+2 252 Atk Dodrio Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 397-468 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Dodrio Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 388-457 (106.5 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 357-420 (95.4 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 394-465 (111.2 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 459-541 (101.1 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rises

Scyther from B to B+/A-

I highly disagree with the recent nomination to lower Scyther all the way down to B. Choice Band Scyther hits extremely hard, which allows it to function as both a wallbreaker and a pivot. Choice Scarf Scyther is really fast, as a Jolly nature enables it to outspeed Scarf Primeape and OHKO it with Aerial Ace. It also can outspeed Modest Ludicolo under rain and AlolaSlash under hail. Not to mention that bulky SD is yet another viable option. All in all, I think B is way too low given Scyther's flexibility and power. It's absurd to say it's on the same level as something like Lurantis.

Muk from C- to C+/C

Muk hard counters Lilligant, which I think is its main selling point. CroMuk can also handle prevalent special attackers including Ludicolo, Eelektross, Oricorio-E, Simisear, and others. Its Poison typing permits it to check stuff like Gurdurr and Hitmonchan, too. Offensively, this thing can plausibly run Choice Band or Assault Vest, and Poison Touch can make this thing even more of a nuisance. Overall, this thing is beastly as a special tank and has the firepower to distinguish it from other special walls like Audino and Type: Null (who don't check Lilligant as reliably).

Drops

Oricorio-E from A+ to A

The hype train went a little too far on this one. Oricorio-E is good but it's far from being A+. It checks Hitmonchan, Gurdurr, Lilligant, and Quagsire, but so does Oricorio-Sensu, which is all the way down in B+. I think it's fallacious to say that it reliably checks Jellicent because 1. Oricorio-E rarely runs Revelation Dance and 2. Jellicent could beat it if it's offensive. It also gets countered by Lanturn and Eelektross, both of whom are extremely prevalent in the tier. Sometimes it's forced to run HP Fighting to beat AlolaSlash, Aggron, and Aurorus (thereby wasting a more valuable moveslot) because otherwise it can't do anything. Other common mons it loses to include: Froslass, Stoutland, Lycanroc, Regirock, AlolaTrio, Jynx, Alolan Raichu, and Rotom-Frost.

 

[Greybaum]

I'm going to start off the post by saying I'm glad more people are posting to the VR. I'm about to disagree with both your noms but please don't let it discourage you (or anyone else unsure about a potentially controversial nom) from making more.

Electabuzz: Unranked > C (Disagree)
I'll start off this nom by saying that Electabuzz indeed has respectable bulk, a decent special attack stat and two great abilities in the form of Vital Spirit and Static. However, I disagree with this nom for two core reasons; versatility and splashability.

First off, versatility. While Electabuzz is able to take a suprising amount of hits, it doesn't have the stats or movepool to take advantage of this.
Using your example of Lilligant...

252 SpA Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Electabuzz: 84-99 (25.1 - 29.6%)
0 SpA Electabuzz Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lilligant: 79-93 (28.1 - 33%)

...And this is without boosts. While Electabuzz takes hits from Lilligant, it fails to do any respectable damage with Psychic (or Focus Blast, if you opt to run it) and your best option is using Discharge to bank on a chance of paralysis. But assuming you even get this far, what then? Since Gen 7, paralysis only cuts your speed by 50%. Seeing as how Discharge is doing so little damage, Lilligant just needs two boosts and it's already back to its default speed. This is of course all assuming you get a free switch into Lilligant, it's assuming you get the paralysis relatively early, and it's asuming they aren't an Aromatherapy variant.
Granted, Lilligant is just one attacker of many, but there'll be many cases where unless you have a super effective attack you're not going to be punishing any of the things you switch into. Nine times out of ten you're forced to click Volt Switch, and if they have a ground type on the team you're in for a bad time, especially considering Electabuzz' lack of investment.
0 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mudsdale: 96-114 (23.7 - 28.2%)
0 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Gastrodon: 184-220 (43.1 - 51.6%)

Now this leads into my other argument, splashability. Electabuzz is taking hits, but not doing much back. Eelektross performs a similar role, with a ground immunity and access to Knock Off. Lanturn provides a Volt Switch immunity, Heal Bell, and a busted STAB move with a 30% burn chance.

Other blanket physical checks like Gurdurr and Bellossom provide wincons, Persian-Alola and Sableye provide utility, and in comparison, what does Electabuzz have? Paralysis, is nice, but Stunfisk outclasses it in every way. More bulk, regeneration over time thanks to Leftovers, Volt immunity, no weakness to Knock Off, and most importantly, Stealth Rock. The only thing it misses out on is access to Volt Switch, but this is nothing compared to the other utility Stunfisk provides in comparison.
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 136-162 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Swanna: A- > B+ (Disagree)
Gum has covered all of Phantom's arguments, so I'm mostly going to be focusing on Ktut here.

I did go through all the points Ktut made and argue against them (which I'll keep in spoilers under this because I put way too much time into it), but it's easier to just point out that Z/LO-Swanna isn't meant to function primarily as a Defogger. Swanna is intended to force switches and spread damage by using its impressive speed and strong offensive typing. Defogging on said forced switches is a side benefit, but not the intended purpose. If you're treating it like an ordinary defogger (or just a fast flying type like Pom-Pom) you're bound to be disappointed.

ktut

Gum is right in poiting out that scald+roost can take spdef sandslash down quite easily. However, as PH said, it needs at least 4 scalds to do so. Problem is that swanna is so frail that when it needs to RK something, it has to go for the KO and use hurricane, which can let spdef sandslash switchin and heal with leftovers. Also snowslash should be using toxic, which is super annoying for swanna. Swanna definitely counters non-toxic sandslash, but I don't see a reason not to use toxic (that reason being that u are running both spin and rocks which isn't a great idea).

Sandslash-Alola is a really bad example to bring up, in my opinion. An uninvested Sandslash-Alola gets roost-stalled by Swanna, and does not prevent it from defogging. Scald won't kill Sandslash-Alola, but it does have a 30% chance to burn the Pokémon. I wouldn't call Swanna a safe switchin (it struggles to switch into much at all) but Sandslash-Alola doesn't beat it in a 1v1, and certainly can't switch into it.
You may not be running spin/rocks Sandslash, but the VR is meant to reflect the average player. I've checked our most recent ladder stats and Sandslash-Alola was last using Toxic on roughly 30% of its sets. Even discounting this, I feel that the point of Toxic is rather moot when this point was originally based around Swanna not being able to Defog away hazards; Sandslash-Alola has no way of preventing this and even less reason to switch into a potentially crippling Scald.

However swanna just happens to be ridiculously frail, weak to rocks, and unviable without a Z move or choice scarf.

Swanna certainly is frail and weak to rocks, however you neglect to mention Swanna's speed and fantastic offensive typing. Most of our Flying checks include Pokémon tailored to beat Oricorio-Pom-Pom and Dodrio, such as Regirock, Metang and ironically Oricorio-Pom-Pom. None of these Pokémon particularly enjoy switching into Scald. I accept that Lanturn and Eelektross are fairly consistent switchins, but neither are on every team and I'd argue that their presence alone isn't cause to drop Swanna a subrank.

Given that it isn't a breaker, I would consider using Z on swanna as a waste most of the time. LO swanna just misses hurricanes and gets worn down super quickly, nobody uses it and that makes sense.

Z moves are not a necessity on every team, so I don't think it's fair to consider it a 'waste'. Life Orb Swanna is also perfectly reasonable. Z is a far more popular item, but Life Orb does get use (and seeing as how only one Z-Swanna Hurricane gets perfect accuracy I don't think "it misses" is a fair argument).

Scarf has a niche to revengekill primeape scarf and lilligant, but faces heavy competition from scyther, which is bulkier, resists lilligant's gigadrain and can generate momentum via uturn earlygame. Dodrio scarf is also a solid scarfer, and we can definitely compare it with swanna since Bravebird is their most reliable stab when it comes to revengekilling.

Scarf Scyther is not exactly renowned for its bulk either, and has to deal with taking 50% if hazards aren't cleared. It resists Lilligant's Giga Drain, but as a scarfer this is fairly irrelevant. Both do their job well. Scyther has U-Turn & Knock Off, , Swanna has mixed attacking potential, a stronger chance of bluffing its set and and an emergency defog in the back.

If we also take into account how common lanturn and eelektross are, I see little to no reason to use swanna, it just seems super matchup-based and even in "good" MUs it fails to Ko stuff that dodrio would KO, such as lanturn/eel with stab return and stoutland with jump kick. A scarfer that isn't reliable in any game and can even lead to a loss of momentum shouldn't be in A- . And as I said before, I see the Z swanna as a pure waste, hard to justify it over oricorio-pompom.

I mean, they aren't that common, and they certainly aren't enough reason to dismiss Swanna (especially when Swanna is typically used in more offensive teams where smart doubles can pretty heavily punish an Eelektross or Lanturn). Swanna and Pom-Pom have different roles and shouldn't be considered in my opinion.

Stoutland: A+ > S (Unsure)
I'm not sure on this one, but lets look at the description Ktut offered: "S rank contains Pokémon that define a particular tier, being able to perform a role (or more) extremely well and lack glaring flaws which prevent them from being effective in said roles. "
I'd argue that Stoutland absolutely does this. It's our best wallbreaker by far and has a very narrow number of switchins. It outspeeds a solid portion of the metagame, switching into weaker threats like Qwilfish and Roselia and practically guaranteeing a kill.
Here's every GSI we have ranked at B- or higher: Carracosta, Gurdurr, Metang, Regirock, Tangela. Of these, Tangela and Gurdurr are the only ones that aren't rockers. Tangela isn't particularly splashable, and Gurdurr can only feasibly switch into Return once if the opponent has a way of blocking Drain Punch recovery (Mesprit, Rocky Helmet Oricorio etc.).
Considering how many people are using rockers like Mesprit, Sandslash-Alola and Mudsdale that only soft-check Stoutland at best, I think it's safe to say that Stoutland is going to have a pretty solid matchup most of the time.
Regarding splashability (though I don't believe this is a necessary factor to be S tier), Stoutland is the best breaker and forms fantastic cores with the likes of Lycanroc, Victreebel and Lilligant. It needs little to no support, but takes advantage of slow pivots, spikestack, and acts as a status absorber. I've never really had problems building around it, personally. I'm unsure if the increase in use of mons like Persian-A and Primeape that abuse it is enough to warrant keeping it from S, but I don't think the argument posted above is as fair on the dog as it should be.
I'd prefer to put this in S- or something, but that doesn't exist.

Lastly, I agree with Ktut on Eelektross and I agree with m3po on Muk, but I don't really have anything to say on those that they haven't already covered.

 

[jonago]

Since there are some interesting nominations made, I want to give my opinion on things as well.

Oricorio-Pompom: A+ to A (Disagree)
I think it's an understatement to say that Oricorio doesn't belong to A+. For me, it's one of the most splashable fighting resists that also can function as a potent breaker in the current meta. Considering the Sets it can run, its most reliable check is Regirock. Also, that's only half true if you take into account that some Oricorio Sets have Taunt and Regirock runs Drainpunch > EQ nowadays. So technically, it can even win that matchup. Additionally, Lanturn and Eelektross are only checks at best. CM/Taunt beats Lanturn and Eelektross can't damage Pompom after some boosts. Surely these are the only defensive outs you might have and in the end you can Volt out to bring in something faster but you will never truly counter it by definition (except your name is Rotom-Frost I guess).
That plus the fact that it compresses defensive and offensive roles so nicely, makes Pompom A+ for sure.

Skuntank: S to A+ (disagree)
So for Skuntank I had to do a Pro Skunk and Pro Mesprit list (see down below in the spoiler). For me it's just a decision of whether Skuntank has more or less pros than Mesprit since they both have what it takes to be S rank. They are splashable (which is a criteria in my opinion. Didn't understand Exeggutor in S when it was allowed tbh), they, hence, can fulfill supportive, offensive or defensive roles.
To think about S-Ranks that way may seem strange but if you look at other S-ranks like Lando-T in OU, Scizor in UU, Stoise in RU or Incineroar in NU they all do exactly have these advantages (and more, like ours).
That's also why I positioned myself to disagree on Stout being S. Just because something is broken doesn't mean it has to be S.
Eitherway, for Skuntank's case, it isn't even in question if it is a subrank below Mesprit or not (which was my initial thought on that topic). It differs from Mesprit through its movepool that isn't as big as Mesprit's. However, Skuntank has strengths in other places again. Just look at the list I've made so my point gets clear.
In short: Skuntank and Mesprit have the same amount of good points speaking for each of them so don't seperating them in the ranks only seems reasonable.

​

Pros for Skunk and Mesprit

Pros Skunk:
- Great Offense MU with a strong Sucker Punch
- Great defensive Utility in checking PU's best Pokemon imo: Mesprit
- Different sets and unpredictablity. Possible to punish its usual switchins (like Gurdurr/Mudsdale) with Acid Spray. Band and Scarf are also nice sets to compress other roles
- In a pinch, it can inflict important chip on physical threats with Rocky Helmet + Aftermath
- Has a place on basically every playstyle
- Decent Hazard Removal
- Best Pursuit in PU

Pros Mesprit:
- Great Breaking potential with CM or Choice Specs
- decent Offense Matchup with the Scarf Set
- one of the best pivots
- great supportive role with the defensive set (Healing Wish/SR; Rain Dance if you want)
-> A SR setter that also is a Fighting resist is amazing
- Most splashable Pokemon in PU; Scarf and Rocks are potent in every team and Mesprit can do both without losing much
- Unpredictable. You can adjust its set depending on your team.
- Also has a place on every playstyle

Also, in regards of Electabuzz and Swanna, I am of the same opinion as uhuhuhu7. Nothing to add there.
Froslass too, is quite obvious for me to be S. Here is no need to add something to the conversation. I feel like it has the benefits that our current S-Ranks share. Being splashable and very versatile. Spikes are meta defining in my opinion and Froslass is the most reliable setter we have right now (looking at how much momentum you gain from just staying in with defensive Froslass to get 2 layers up at least).

 

[m3po]

Oricorio-Pompom: A+ to A (Disagree)
I think it's an understatement to say that Oricorio doesn't belong to A+. For me, it's one of the most splashable fighting resists that also can function as a potent breaker in the current meta. Considering the Sets it can run, its most reliable check is Regirock. Also, that's only half true if you take into account that some Oricorio Sets have Taunt and Regirock runs Drainpunch > EQ nowadays. So technically, it can even win that matchup. Additionally, Lanturn and Eelektross are only checks at best. CM/Taunt beats Lanturn and Eelektross can't damage Pompom after some boosts. Surely these are the only defensive outs you might have and in the end you can Volt out to bring in something faster but you will never truly counter it by definition (except your name is Rotom-Frost I guess).
That plus the fact that it compresses defensive and offensive roles so nicely, makes Pompom A+ for sure.

Oricorio-E's main problem is the proliferous amount of Ice-types in the tier and the fact that it severely suffers from 4 Moveslot Syndrome. Without Taunt, it loses to Lanturn. Without HP Fighting, it loses to Aggron, AlolaSlash, and Aurorus. Without Calm Mind, it doesn't serve its role as a breaker effectively. Its most common set happens to be Calm Mind, Hurricane, Taunt, and Roost, meaning it can't touch the aforementioned mons.

I think you are mistaken when you say Lanturn and Eelektross are checks "at best". Here is a quote I found regarding checks and counters:
"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

By definition, Lanturn and Eelektross are true counters to Oricorio. Unless they are at extremely low health, they can manually switch into Oricorio indefinitely and simply Volt Switch out into a faster threat, which is essentially winning the matchup. In a 1v1 Oricorio-E may win, but this is why Lanturn and Eelektross will pivot out 9 times out of 10. Additionally, it's not extremely rare to see Eelektross running Acid Spray. On a side note, I think other Electric-types such as Alolan Raichu and Manectric are counters.

"Also, that's only half true if you take into account that some Oricorio Sets have Taunt and Regirock runs Drainpunch > EQ nowadays. So technically, it can even win that matchup."

regirock calc

0 Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 218-258 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Um...no it can't. If Regirock is healthy, the best Oricorio can do against it is Roost stall it to some degree (if that's your definition of winning a matchup). If Oricorio is running Toxic, it might have a better chance but again, it's sacrificing a more valuable moveslot in Taunt/Calm Mind/HP Fighting.

On paper, Oricorio-E is technically a Fighting resist because yes; Flying does resist Fighting. Nevertheless, Primeape and Hitmonchan often carry a super-effective coverage move including Stone Edge or Ice Punch. It's not that hard to predict a switch-in.

In my mind, Oricorio does a stellar job at stallbreaking and threatening stuff like Gurdurr and Lilligant. However, given the ubiquity of Froslass, AlolaSlash, and Lycanroc you see in the tier, it does not deserve to be A+. Unfortunately, in a more offensive meta, it gets overwhelmed too easily by the combined amount of pressure from faster threats like Dodrio and Stealth Rock damage.

 

[UberSkitty]

Hi I'm here to make some noms for the lower mons

Duosion: D -> C+/C
Definitely no bias in this at all. Nope. But in all seriousness, why is this mon so much lower than Musharna? Yeah, Musharna can do stuff like hold Leftovers and serve as a Fighting-check, but even with Leftovers Musharna's longevity is worse than Duosion's and there are much better options for Fighting-checks like Mesprit and Oricorio-G anyway. Furthermore, the use of mons like Regirock, Alolan Sandslash, and Metang is as high as usual, if not higher, which Duosion can easily use as setup fodder without fear of being crippled by Toxic. While stuff like Alolan Persian may also be even higher Duosion can easily catch it off guard with Signal Beam and takes little from Foul Play. Furthermore, other things that threaten Duosion such as Choice Specs Jellicent and Restalk Spiritomb have plummeted in usage, and Spikes are still proving to be a large aspect of this meta with stuff like Froslass running around. Overall, Duosion is currently just as good, if not better, than Musharna. No bias I swear.

Bouffalant: D -> C
It checks Lilligant, and we can use all the help against that mon. It's also a pretty cool wallbreaker woth its Sub SD set. I have no idea what else to say here.

Simipour: D -> C-/C
I know I just nommed this mon and it was just put in D-rank, but its niche is better than that. This niche being in its great coverage as a Nasty Plot sweeper in Water-Ice-Grass. While it does face competition from mons like Floatzel and Simisear, their relevance only proves that Simipour has more potential than it is given. Floatzel may have higher Speed and access to Aqua Jet, but Simipour still matches its offensive presence with its better setup move and coverage. As for Simisear, Fire is definitely and under-prepared for offensive typing, but Simipour is still able to hit its defensive checks like Roselia and Jellicent pretty hard after a boost.

Kadabra: C -> C+
I've been fiddling with this mon and its an underrated offensive threat. Being able to hold the Focus Sash while being able to choose between hitting hard with its high Special Attack or just clicking Counter allows this mon to pick up a KO in most matches. It's also fast.

Misdreavus: C- -> D
I nommed this mon down a while ago, and I stand by that it is just so outclassed by Froslass as a support Ghost-type. Froslass has Leftovers, a debatably better typing, and most importantly access to Spikes. This is all while still having access to moves like Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, and Destiny Bond. Besides being able to get the Eviolite boost which is still eh, Misdreavus's one niche over Froslass is its better matchup against hazards, which is what is keeping it from being unranked. But otherwise, I would almost never choose this mon over Froslass.

Cacturne: D -> UR
This mon was only good for a while when Jellicent was extremely relevant. While Jellicent is still a solid mon, the meta has managed to adapt to it, which leaves Cacturne with little niche. It's outclassed as a Spikes mon, and while it has a cool offensive typing its shared with the generally better option in Shiftry.

Silvally-Fairy: B -> B-
It's an okay Defogger, but hard-losing against Regirock and having to choose between hitting Alolan Sandslash (which you probably will choose) and Qwilfish really sucks. As for a Fighting-check, like I said about Musharna, there are just much better options, especially with how easily worn down it is. Also have fun checking Primeape if it stays in while you go for Parting Shot. Its offensive presence is also pretty bad, with only average stats and no item to boost them. Its main niche is its utility and role compression, but I wouldn't put it on a team unless I really needed those specific things.

Silvally-Water: B- -> C+/C
Similar to Silvally-Fairy, this mon's main niche is in its utility. However, it still continues a few negative aspects of Silvally-Fairy such as its lack of recovery. But the main reason for this mon not being too good anymore is in its competition. Quagsire, Gastrodon, Jellicent, Kabutops, and even Silvally-Dragon can all do pretty much the one or two of the same things each but better. Also similar to Silvally-Fairy, I just wouldn't really add this mon to a team unless I really needed to role compression.

Probopass: B- -> C+/C
Every relevant Steel-type in this tier runs Earthquake. They also pretty much outclass Probopass offensively and defensively. That is all.

That is all.

 

[Specs]

Oricorio-E's main problem is the proliferous amount of Ice-types in the tier and the fact that it severely suffers from 4 Moveslot Syndrome. Without Taunt, it loses to Lanturn. Without HP Fighting, it loses to Aggron, AlolaSlash, and Aurorus. Without Calm Mind, it doesn't serve its role as a breaker effectively. Its most common set happens to be Calm Mind, Hurricane, Taunt, and Roost, meaning it can't touch the aforementioned mons.

I think you are mistaken when you say Lanturn and Eelektross are checks "at best". Here is a quote I found regarding checks and counters:
"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

By definition, Lanturn and Eelektross are true counters to Oricorio. Unless they are at extremely low health, they can manually switch into Oricorio indefinitely and simply Volt Switch out into a faster threat, which is essentially winning the matchup. In a 1v1 Oricorio-E may win, but this is why Lanturn and Eelektross will pivot out 9 times out of 10. Additionally, it's not extremely rare to see Eelektross running Acid Spray. On a side note, I think other Electric-types such as Alolan Raichu and Manectric are counters.

"Also, that's only half true if you take into account that some Oricorio Sets have Taunt and Regirock runs Drainpunch > EQ nowadays. So technically, it can even win that matchup."

regirock calc

0 Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 218-258 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Um...no it can't. If Regirock is healthy, the best Oricorio can do against it is Roost stall it to some degree (if that's your definition of winning a matchup). If Oricorio is running Toxic, it might have a better chance but again, it's sacrificing a more valuable moveslot in Taunt/Calm Mind/HP Fighting.

On paper, Oricorio-E is technically a Fighting resist because yes; Flying does resist Fighting. Nevertheless, Primeape and Hitmonchan often carry a super-effective coverage move including Stone Edge or Ice Punch. It's not that hard to predict a switch-in.

In my mind, Oricorio does a stellar job at stallbreaking and threatening stuff like Gurdurr and Lilligant. However, given the ubiquity of Froslass, AlolaSlash, and Lycanroc you see in the tier, it does not deserve to be A+. Unfortunately, in a more offensive meta, it gets overwhelmed too easily by the combined amount of pressure from faster threats like Dodrio and Stealth Rock damage.

No, volt switching out isn't essentially winning the matchup. When you're talking about what a check/counter is you can really only talk about the 1v1, or said check/counter switching in. Neither Lanturn or especially Eelektross counter Oricorio pom-pom. Lanturn doesn't win every single time because taunt pom-pom is still everywhere, AV Lanturn 100% of the time loses to it, and Volt switching out isn't you winning the match up every single time (I get into why later). Eelektross hardly ever runs acid spray (even tho its a cool little tech) and if it isn't running it, it always loses the 1v1. Yes it can volt switch out but there are too many variables here like: how healthy your team is, what pokemon you have, what the oricorio set is, ect.

I'm not sure where you got those definitions from but they don't seem to factor in what Pokemon B can do the Pokemon A once its in. Which is a big part of what makes a counter. A counter can always switch into pokemon A while also being able to beat it 1v1.

I wont go over too much else from here but I just felt like that needed to be said, considering checking and countering is a big part of these VR posts and I think you have the wrong idea here of what these mons actually do to Pom-Pom in practice.

 

[TTK]

I'm liking the VR being so active, considering the fact a while back like a month or two, it was a bit dead but anyways, time to throw my 2 cents into this minefield.

Oricorio-E from A+ to A

The hype train went a little too far on this one. Oricorio-E is good but it's far from being A+. It checks Hitmonchan, Gurdurr, Lilligant, and Quagsire, but so does Oricorio-Sensu, which is all the way down in B+. I think it's fallacious to say that it reliably checks Jellicent because 1. Oricorio-E rarely runs Revelation Dance and 2. Jellicent could beat it if it's offensive. It also gets countered by Lanturn and Eelektross, both of whom are extremely prevalent in the tier. Sometimes it's forced to run HP Fighting to beat AlolaSlash, Aggron, and Aurorus (thereby wasting a more valuable moveslot) because otherwise it can't do anything. Other common mons it loses to include: Froslass, Stoutland, Lycanroc, Regirock, AlolaTrio, Jynx, Alolan Raichu, and Rotom-Frost.

First thing, my main focus isn't on where pompom ends up it's rather the points given about it is where I'm criticising. What relevance does Sensu checking the same things as pompom have in your nom to drop it? Because it is B+ and can do similar things to pompom means we should drop pompom? That's not how it works.

Why are you acting as if running HP Fighting is such a bad thing? "Wasting a more valuable moveslot" imo HP Fighting > Taunt. You are able to bait in the aforementioned pokemon and chunk them heavily. There is nothing negative about that at all. Also, you just naming mons it loses to doesn't add anything either because we know what it loses to but what it loses to barely has any effect on its viability (doesn't lose to Stout since +1 SSSS bops it)

Before I talk about other noms I agree with, ima add my own nom real quick.

Toucannon C- to D
Toucannon honestly get beat in every department it tries to do. It really has nothing going for it apart from Flying STAB and coverage in Bullet Seed to threaten things like Quag and Gastro. I will admit its mixed set is good at wallbreaking but it's just quite hard justifying this mon on a team especially when you can use other Normals that don't give you a rocks weakness and don't tend to have a really poor speed tier. Even Bouffalant is better than this right now due to the fact it doesn't actually lose to Lilligant and can hold its own whereas Toucannon drops to either Z-Breakneck Blitz or HP Rock after rocks and has greater defensive utility while managing to maintain its damage output.


Other noms I agree with:

Cacturne D to UR: Why is this thing still ranked? Its only niche is Spikes and as Skitty said, Jelli usage has declined so where is its spot in the meta when we have Lass and Qwil, which basically have everything going for them compared to cactus boy here?

Bouffalant D to C: Don't sleep on this mon as a "discount stout". Bouff certainly has enough to differentiate itself from doggo eg Sap Sipper and much more bulk, meaning 1, it doesn't fold to a lot (trust me this thing takes hits) and 2, it can check Lilli reliably especially with the AV set and bop it with Megahorn.

Ranking Simisage: grassmonkey is actually a pretty decent mixed attacker. All the monkeys have some use and tbh if we ranked Simipour, then sage definitely can see the light of day. Also, having really nice coverage in Superpower, Gunk Shot and Rock Slide allow it to hit everything in the tier and threaten a lot of mons like Lilli, Cuno and basically every relevant Fighting-weak mon.

 

[BigPelf34]

Response to some previous noms (and a little bit on my own nom)

Electabuzz: Unranked -> C: This thing is pretty much just as good as Stunfisk- yea it has a little less physical bulk, no Ground type, and no Rocks, but it's speed is 95 instead of 32, it has much better offenses, special bulk, and Volt Switch. If C rank means "[The] rank is where Pokémon start becoming somewhat niche picks, as they often have heavy reliance on team support due to some annoying flaws and face serious competition from higher ranked Pokémon," Electabuzz certainly qualifies. OK now im done talking about this, sorry!


Duosion: D -> C+/C: Disagree

This thing is pretty much only viable in Trick Room, and D rank is pretty much the perfect place for such a niche mon.


Bouffalant: D -> C: 100% Agree
Stunned this mon isn't in C or higher, actually. Yea Stoutland is a better offensive Normal type, but AfroBuff has a lot qualities that make it really viable. Perfect counter to S ranked Lilligant, decent bulk- definitely a decent mon in PU.


Simisage: Unranked -> D: Agree


Kadabra: C -> C+: Agree
Really scary mon on Hyper offense teams, and also a pretty good anti- offense mon in its own right. Yea its hurt by Skunk a lot, but at least it can run Sash Counter to beat it.


Misdreavus: C- -> D: Agree
This mon is so outclassed by Silvally Ghost and Froslass in every single way- it might even be worthy of no rank.


Probopass: B- -> C+/C: Agree
So many Fighting, Water, and Ground type attacks in this tier really cripple this guy.


Toucannon C- to D: Disagree
Great on Trick Room teams, and a viable wallbreaker in its own right. Perfectly fine in C/C-.

Stoutland to S: Agree
Probably the hardest hitting mon in this tier. Scrappy and Intimidate are both extremely good abilities.