Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Guard]

Toxapex A+ or S

Last slate, there were nominations for Toxapex to rise to S and it very nearly happened, since it only needed one more vote to be S. Personally, I stayed neutral on that particular nomination but I did find the notion of it’s rise nearly being accepted very interesting in itself. Hence, I decided to test Toxapex out during the previous week and I’ll post my thoughts here.

First, let’s take a look at A+, sans Toxapex. We have Mega Alakazam, Mega Mawile, Ferrothorn and Tornadus-Therian. From these 4, Mega Mawile has been getting the most consistent results (and a couple of nominations to S) for a while now, stretching back to the Zygarde meta. Ferrothorn was slightly worse than the rest of that bunch, but after Zygardes ban, it has caught up and now has roughly the same viability as Mega Alakazam and Tornadus-Therian. Now I want you to compare them to Toxapex, which frankly is also A+. If we were to compare the previous 4 Pokémon to Toxapex, purely based on viability, Mega Alakazam, Ferrothorn and Tornadus-Therian completely fail to equate their viability ceiling to that of Toxapex. Not only is Toxapex a lot more frightening on team preview (I’ll come back to this later on), it also has to be accounted for in the teambuilder a lot more if you don’t want your entire team to be a complete sitting duck. As for Mega Mawile, I’d say it comes closest to Toxapex’ viability, but for an offensive mon it has a cripplingly low speed and a mediocre base form that doesn’t give a lot of defensive utility for its team, which is completely fine on Mawile Balance, but in other structures like Trick Room, it is a factor that keeps Mawile in check. The fact of the matter is that for an offensive Pokémon, Mawile still has its flaws, while Toxapex is a near flawless defensive behemoth. So what I’m basically trying to say is that in the end even Mega Mawile cannot stand up to Toxapex viability-wise.

Now let’s take a look at S: Heatran, Ash-Greninja, Magearna and Landorus-Therian. Before I go into anything deeply, I’m going to ask a question. Does Toxapex compare to the current S ranked Pokémon? Even though Toxapex doesn’t choose it’s checks and counters and even though it isn’t exactly versatile or threatens to clean up the opposition, those are more or less criteria for offensively inclined Pokémon to fit the bill in S. However, Toxapex is completely defensive. As a matter of fact, in the past four of five meta’s, Toxapex is the only purely defensive Pokémon to ever make it to S. Since it’s roles do not compare to the current S mons, I will advocate for it with the use of reasons based on a more general point of view.

Toxapex is a very unique defensive Pokémon. First of all, Toxapex is very threatening from the get go in a battle. Why is that? Let’s elaborate on Toxapex’ obvious purpose in battle, which is basically countering 25% of the meta, checking another 40% and blanket checking another 20%, which leaves 15% of the meta that can directly threaten Toxapex out. These in itself are the most impressive numbers I have ever seen for a defensive Pokémon and form a ladder to Toxapex’s second purpose in battle, and the reason why it is so threatening, which is the ability to successfully use one of the most constricting moves in the game in Toxic Spikes, every time it can come in, which amounts to a lot of opportunities. This is the reason why Toxapex stands out from other defensive Pokémon; because it has the ability to use it’s opportunities to the fullest and most dangerous potential. The fact that it is such a mainstay throughout a battle puts a lot of pressure to the teams hazard remover, since no hazard remover is as resilient as Toxapex is. This in turn enables the Toxapex team to consistently threaten the foe’s hazard remover and take it out a majority of the time, before stacking its own hazards and very likely winning the game. Hence, what you should conclude from my first argument is the fact that a Toxapex team indirectly has a big advantage over a non Toxapex team in the hazard game, a notion I have never heard that often and one that is very interesting.

Let’s move on to the next main reason why Toxapex stands out so much from other defensive Pokémon, and you can probably see this coming but it’s the fact that Toxapex is not passive or setup bait for anything relevant in the tier because of Haze, except Calm Mind Tapu Lele. This is a godsend for a defensive Pokémon. This combined with its ability in Regenerator gives it another rare trait for a defensive Pokémon: it very rarely is a momentum drain.

So, if we go back to the question whether or not Toxapex can compare itself to the S-ranked mons, I feel very inclined to say yes. Toxapex has always had an enormous impact on the gen 7 meta and after Zygardes departure, it has as much of an impact on the metagame as any S rank Pokémon claims to have right now and it does in fact match up with them viability-wise.

Hence, I say

to S

 

[volx757]

View attachment 164040Toxapex A+ or S

Last slate, there were nominations for Toxapex to rise to S and it very nearly happened, since it only needed one more vote to be S. Personally, I stayed neutral on that particular nomination but I did find the notion of it’s rise nearly being accepted very interesting in itself. Hence, I decided to test Toxapex out during the previous week and I’ll post my thoughts here.

First, let’s take a look at A+, sans Toxapex. We have Mega Alakazam, Mega Mawile, Ferrothorn and Tornadus-Therian. From these 4, Mega Mawile has been getting the most consistent results (and a couple of nominations to S) for a while now, stretching back to the Zygarde meta. Ferrothorn was slightly worse than the rest of that bunch, but after Zygardes ban, it has caught up and now has roughly the same viability as Mega Alakazam and Tornadus-Therian. Now I want you to compare them to Toxapex, which frankly is also A+. If we were to compare the previous 4 Pokémon to Toxapex, purely based on viability, Mega Alakazam, Ferrothorn and Tornadus-Therian completely fail to equate their viability ceiling to that of Toxapex. Not only is Toxapex a lot more frightening on team preview (I’ll come back to this later on), it also has to be accounted for in the teambuilder a lot more if you don’t want your entire team to be a complete sitting duck. As for Mega Mawile, I’d say it comes closest to Toxapex’ viability, but for an offensive mon it has a cripplingly low speed and a mediocre base form that doesn’t give a lot of defensive utility for its team, which is completely fine on Mawile Balance, but in other structures like Trick Room, it is a factor that keeps Mawile in check. The fact of the matter is that for an offensive Pokémon, Mawile still has its flaws, while Toxapex is a near flawless defensive behemoth. So what I’m basically trying to say is that in the end even Mega Mawile cannot stand up to Toxapex viability-wise.

Now let’s take a look at S: Heatran, Ash-Greninja, Magearna and Landorus-Therian. Before I go into anything deeply, I’m going to ask a question. Does Toxapex compare to the current S ranked Pokémon? Even though Toxapex doesn’t choose it’s checks and counters and even though it isn’t exactly versatile or threatens to clean up the opposition, those are more or less criteria for offensively inclined Pokémon to fit the bill in S. However, Toxapex is completely defensive. As a matter of fact, in the past four of five meta’s, Toxapex is the only purely defensive Pokémon to ever make it to S. Since it’s roles do not compare to the current S mons, I will advocate for it with the use of reasons based on a more general point of view.

Toxapex is a very unique defensive Pokémon. First of all, Toxapex is very threatening from the get go in a battle. Why is that? Let’s elaborate on Toxapex’ obvious purpose in battle, which is basically countering 25% of the meta, checking another 40% and blanket checking another 20%, which leaves 15% of the meta that can directly threaten Toxapex out. These in itself are the most impressive numbers I have ever seen for a defensive Pokémon and form a ladder to Toxapex’s second purpose in battle, and the reason why it is so threatening, which is the ability to successfully use one of the most constricting moves in the game in Toxic Spikes, every time it can come in, which amounts to a lot of opportunities. This is the reasons why Toxapex stands out from other defensive Pokémon; because it has the ability to use it’s opportunities to the fullest and most dangerous potential. The fact that it is such a mainstay throughout a battle puts a lot of pressure to the teams hazard remover, since no hazard remover is as resilient as Toxapex is. This in turn enables the Toxapex team to consistently threaten the foe’s hazard remover and take it out a majority of the time, before stacking its own hazards and very likely winning the game. Hence, what you should conclude from my first argument is the fact that a Toxapex team indirectly has a big advantage over a non Toxapex team in the hazard game, a notion I have never heard that often and one that is very interesting.

Let’s move on to the next main reason why Toxapex stands out so much from other defensive Pokémon, and you can probably see this coming but it’s the fact that Toxapex is not passive or setup bait for anything relevant in the tier because of Haze, except Calm Mind Tapu Lele. This is a godsend for a defensive Pokémon. This combined with its ability in Regenerator gives it another rare trait for a defensive Pokémon: it very rarely is a momentum drain.

So, if we go back to the question whether or not Toxapex can compare itself to the S-ranked mons, I feel very inclined to say yes. Toxapex has always had an enormous impact on the gen 7 meta and after Zygardes departure, it has as much of an impact on the metagame as any S rank Pokémon claims to have right now and it does in fact match up with them viability-wise.

Hence, I say View attachment 164039 to S

Are the %s from actual data or are you guestimating? Also I don't think tspikes are close to being one of the most constricting moves in the game. Every team has at least one steel and at least one airbone mon, often multiple of one or both of those, so at least 1/3 of the team doesn't even care. And toxapex itself is so viable and common that many teams have easy removal. Also tornt is common, has regenerator, and often runs AV, so there is a hazard remover as durable as pex. I think you make the mon out to be more threatening and meta-defining than it is. It doesn't require hard thinking in the team builder to account for it as most top-tier offensive mons can break it (mawile, tran, landot, kartana, koko, bulu, zam, lele, medi).

 

[Finchinator]

Also tornt is common, has regenerator, and often runs AV, so there is a hazard remover as durable as pex.

TornT does not run AV often and is not as durable as Toxapex. Please make sure to “fact check” your posts before making bold claims and arguments.

PS: AV cannot even Fog and uh Pex doesn’t learn any removing moves itself.

 

[Ruft]

PS: AV cannot even Fog and uh Pex doesn’t learn any removing moves itself.

I think he's specifically talking in the context of Toxic Spikes, which Toxapex passively removes when it comes in. I believe he's trying to say that the strength of Toxic Spikes is neutered by the fact that Toxapex is so common in and of itself and easy to bring in, and that Tornadus-Therian is another somewhat durable (although I definitely agree not as durable as Toxapex) and common Pokémon that is unaffected by Toxic Spikes and able to remove them. Don't know why he brought up AV though.

finch edit: you're probably right -- I was thinking the same until I saw the AV mention, which is what confused me a lot.

 

[Guard]

Are the %s from actual data or are you guestimating? Also I don't think tspikes are close to being one of the most constricting moves in the game. Every team has at least one steel and at least one airbone mon, often multiple of one or both of those, so at least 1/3 of the team doesn't even care. And toxapex itself is so viable and common that many teams have easy removal. Also tornt is common, has regenerator, and often runs AV, so there is a hazard remover as durable as pex. I think you make the mon out to be more threatening and meta-defining than it is. It doesn't require hard thinking in the team builder to account for it as most top-tier offensive mons can break it (mawile, tran, landot, kartana, koko, bulu, zam, lele, medi).

The percentages are close to actual data. Regarding Toxic Spikes, I get what you're trying to say but I feel like you're throwing things into a vacuum. On paper, Toxic Spikes is a lot less constricting than it actually is. Toxapex is very often paired with Pokemon that abuse both Toxic Spikes and the steel/poison/airborne Pokemon that don't care about Toxic Spikes themselves. Zygarde was a prime example of this, because it threatened every relevant Steel and Poison type and abused Toxic Spikes to stall out its would be counters. Stealth Rock Heatran, which can't fit Toxic in its moveslot, is a great example too, since it has the ability to trap and dispose of Defog users and enjoys Toxic Spikes to chip down its checks in combination with Magma Storm. Acid Armor Reuniclus is a common Toxapex teammate and uses every relevant Steel or Poison type as setup bait, except Mega Mawile. It is pretty easy to remove and check Toxic Spikes theoretically, but in practice optimal Toxapex teams are centered around keeping Toxic Spikes up through continued offensive pressure, and Toxapex often is the main culprit of those team's successes.

Regarding the fact that Toxapex is so common that many teams have Toxic Spikes removal, that is true, but the fact that a Pokemon is so common that it's detrimental to its own effectiveness is a sign that it's very meta defining. Lando-T is good example since it was so common that HP Ice pretty much became standard to deal with itself.

And Toxapex requires a lot of thought in teambuilding to be honest. I'd say it requires every team to have some form of Pokemon that abuses it and it certainly requires other teams to have as much of an offensive presence to deal with it as Ash-Gren or Heatran or any S-ranked mon require other teams to have a defensive presence that keeps them at bay.

 

[ssjjynx]

Move down from S to A+.

With av mag, ferrothorn, toxapex being as prevalent and viable as they are rn, this can not be justified as an S tier mon. There's even av tangrowth, bulu and the rare keldeo to consider. As a spike setter it is outclassed by protean (which won't necessarily be choice locked), and as an attacker it's 3 best checks are also 3 of the most splashable mons in ou rn (mag, ferro, pex). Even just taking current spl usage stats into consideration, gear and pex are at 3rd and 4th in usage respectively - granted greninja itself is at number 2 but that's neither here nor there, esp when factoring protean - with ferrothorn bulu and tangrowth not for behind. Each of these pokemon can be brainlessly splashed on a team for any number reasons, even outside greninja, so one can't credit greninja with necessitating them, and each tanks any hit and forces the switch. Offensively, sure, it's the premiere water type in the tier, which more than justifies it being A+, but doesn't quite explain S. Even ignoring hydro being 80% accurate, as long as the ferro, or any grass check, is alive, you'll never click it. Without having any means to break these walls, it's hard-pressed to get the ash form, and ends up being dead weight until the late game. In offense v offense matchup it thrives, but only ever comes in off a slow volt-turn or a revenge kill, and even then av mag and ferro are offense staples and only force gren out again. With spikes being as good as they are rn, the amount of switching gren has to do just to chip gear and ferro wear it down far too quickly. Conversely, if you use ash gren, you can not use protean gren, and this can actually often be a significant opportunity cost in the current meta. I won't go over how good protean gren is, someone already did that, but something worth mentioning is that having protean gren in lures out the av mags, ferros, tangs etc, letting you Z-dig, hp fire, or gunk shot respectively. I mention this because an argument to be made for gren's case is its sure ability to chip away at its checks as the game progresses, allowing something that benefits from those mons being weak, like koko, lele, magearna etc, to come in and clean. While this is certainly true, protean gren chips the checks much better with its ability to lure and smack any of the ash gren checks depending on how you specialise the set to your own need - protean gren is allowed an immense movepool, ash gren is not. Your only optional moves on ash gren are for the fourth slot, and only between spikes and u-turn (and maybe ice beam if you're determined to lose games.) I want to stress that A+ isn't negative at all, ash gren is still extremely potent and viable, particularly in offense v offense and late game, but it's flaws in the current meta are too great to keep it in S right now. All this is worse when you consider it's contemporaries in S, in that heatran landorus and gear have much stronger cases for S right now, and stand head and shoulders above ash gren in viability (but again, A+ is still a very viable ranking).
I also want to add, in case anyone does want to refute this drop, that for 90% of the game this thing will be in its base form, so I trust you'll take that into consideration.

 

[Katy]

Move down from S to A+.

Ash Gren should Stay S because its a really scary mon with an amazing offensive typing bein Water/Dark, the speed tier allows it to outpace a good chunk of the OU tier and the Specs set hits really hard, nothing really can take that and even Toxapex is able to get flinched down via Dark Pulse and is forced to eitehr switch or die. In general Greninja has not a lot of mons, which can easily wall it (Chansey is the only consistet answer imo) because anything else like Toxapex, Gastrodon, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth can get flinched down. Sure Tapu Finis rise in popularity is there but also the slight degree of Tapu Bulu because Zygarde left. But that doesn't mean that Ash Grens life got worse, it pretty much stayed the same imo it even got a bit better, since bulky grasses are not on every team anymore due to Zygarde left the OU building.
Ash Greninja should stay S.

 

[ssjjynx]

By your own admission, the play against its checks is literally to hope for the flinch. In no way is this a counter argument.

 

[Sickist]

View attachment 164184

Move down from S to A+.

With av mag, ferrothorn, toxapex being as prevalent and viable as they are rn, this can not be justified as an S tier mon. There's even av tangrowth, bulu and the rare keldeo to consider. As a spike setter it is outclassed by protean (which won't necessarily be choice locked), and as an attacker it's 3 best checks are also 3 of the most splashable mons in ou rn (mag, ferro, pex). Even just taking current spl usage stats into consideration, gear and pex are at 3rd and 4th in usage respectively - granted greninja itself is at number 2 but that's neither here nor there, esp when factoring protean - with ferrothorn bulu and tangrowth not for behind. Each of these pokemon can be brainlessly splashed on a team for any number reasons, even outside greninja, so one can't credit greninja with necessitating them, and each tanks any hit and forces the switch. Offensively, sure, it's the premiere water type in the tier, which more than justifies it being A+, but doesn't quite explain S. Even ignoring hydro being 80% accurate, as long as the ferro, or any grass check, is alive, you'll never click it. Without having any means to break these walls, it's hard-pressed to get the ash form, and ends up being dead weight until the late game. In offense v offense matchup it thrives, but only ever comes in off a slow volt-turn or a revenge kill, and even then av mag and ferro are offense staples and only force gren out again. With spikes being as good as they are rn, the amount of switching gren has to do just to chip gear and ferro wear it down far too quickly. Conversely, if you use ash gren, you can not use protean gren, and this can actually often be a significant opportunity cost in the current meta. I won't go over how good protean gren is, someone already did that, but something worth mentioning is that having protean gren in lures out the av mags, ferros, tangs etc, letting you Z-dig, hp fire, or gunk shot respectively. I mention this because an argument to be made for gren's case is its sure ability to chip away at its checks as the game progresses, allowing something that benefits from those mons being weak, like koko, lele, magearna etc, to come in and clean. While this is certainly true, protean gren chips the checks much better with its ability to lure and smack any of the ash gren checks depending on how you specialise the set to your own need - protean gren is allowed an immense movepool, ash gren is not. Your only optional moves on ash gren are for the fourth slot, and only between spikes and u-turn (and maybe ice beam if you're determined to lose games.) I want to stress that A+ isn't negative at all, ash gren is still extremely potent and viable, particularly in offense v offense and late game, but it's flaws in the current meta are too great to keep it in S right now. All this is worse when you consider it's contemporaries in S, in that heatran landorus and gear have much stronger cases for S right now, and stand head and shoulders above ash gren in viability (but again, A+ is still a very viable ranking).
I also want to add, in case anyone does want to refute this drop, that for 90% of the game this thing will be in its base form, so I trust you'll take that into consideration.

Oh boy.

First off, Keldeo is not a Greninja switchin. Second off, just because mons get popular that somewhat dent Ash Gren's offensive prowess, doesn't mean Greninja becomes instantly worse. It still has spikes, which are very nice right now considering the amount of Fat builds that are running around. I can agree somewhat that all these Ash Gren answers getting more popular don't really help it, but they don't hinder it as much as your post suggests. Not every Protean Greninja is a lure set, as most are either Scarfed variants or Spikes+Waterium/Expert Belt/ LO. When you mention it being worn down, you fail to account for the fact that Greninja isn't coming in on resisted hits. It comes in via Uturn/Volt switch, Doubling, or after a mon has fainted. Even then, Greninja's HP doesn't really matter. The thing is about spikes wearing things down, is that it's usually Greninja that's wearing the opposing team down. Teams are usually dropping Tangrowth in favor of checks like Fini or Ferrothorn, which both have either shaky ways of recovery, or simply rely on Leftovers. Having to come in on spikes and specs boosted attacks from even non-transformed Greninja is going to wear these down quickly. Anyways, If I missed anything, or you have more questions, feel free to hit me up in pms.

 

[ssjjynx]

just because mons get popular that somewhat dent Ash Gren's offensive prowess, doesn't mean Greninja becomes instantly worse.

Actually, if it's offensive prowess gets dented, that does make it worse. That's literally what worse means. Also talking about how good spikes are rn legit just makes protean even better than ash gren, as it gets them up far more consistently without always being choice locked.

Rather than get into semantics back and forth though, I'll summate again as you seem to have missed it the first time. Ash gren having good, prevalent checks doesn't make it unviable, as I repeatedly said, but the checks do prevent the ash form until late game. Regardless of whether the checks are getting chipped, that fact doesn't change - as long as the check is healthy, you aren't getting ash. Obviously the checks aren't immortal, and when they die, ash cleans - so does literally every other sweeper. Mind, even before it changes form it is still very good at slowly chipping it's checks. You seem to think I'm trying to justify putting ash gren in C+ rank or smth lol. A+ is very accurate and fair for the mileage and utility you will get out of ash gren in the current meta.

S rank is literally the very best mons that ou has to offer. Ash gren is not that right now.

 

[Ewin]

Actually, if it's offensive prowess gets dented, that does make it worse. That's literally what worse means. Also talking about how good spikes are rn legit just makes protean even better than ash gren, as it gets them up far more consistently without always being choice locked.

Rather than get into semantics back and forth though, I'll summate again as you seem to have missed it the first time. Ash gren having good, prevalent checks doesn't make it unviable, as I repeatedly said, but the checks do prevent the ash form until late game. Regardless of whether the checks are getting chipped, that fact doesn't change - as long as the check is healthy, you aren't getting ash. Obviously the checks aren't immortal, and when they die, ash cleans - so does literally every other sweeper. Mind, even before it changes form it is still very good at slowly chipping it's checks. You seem to think I'm trying to justify putting ash gren in C+ rank or smth lol. A+ is very accurate and fair for the mileage and utility you will get out of ash gren in the current meta.

S rank is literally the very best mons that ou has to offer. Ash gren is not that right now.

View attachment 164184

Move down from S to A+.

With av mag, ferrothorn, toxapex being as prevalent and viable as they are rn, this can not be justified as an S tier mon. There's even av tangrowth, bulu and the rare keldeo to consider. As a spike setter it is outclassed by protean (which won't necessarily be choice locked), and as an attacker it's 3 best checks are also 3 of the most splashable mons in ou rn (mag, ferro, pex). Even just taking current spl usage stats into consideration, gear and pex are at 3rd and 4th in usage respectively - granted greninja itself is at number 2 but that's neither here nor there, esp when factoring protean - with ferrothorn bulu and tangrowth not for behind. Each of these pokemon can be brainlessly splashed on a team for any number reasons, even outside greninja, so one can't credit greninja with necessitating them, and each tanks any hit and forces the switch. Offensively, sure, it's the premiere water type in the tier, which more than justifies it being A+, but doesn't quite explain S. Even ignoring hydro being 80% accurate, as long as the ferro, or any grass check, is alive, you'll never click it. Without having any means to break these walls, it's hard-pressed to get the ash form, and ends up being dead weight until the late game. In offense v offense matchup it thrives, but only ever comes in off a slow volt-turn or a revenge kill, and even then av mag and ferro are offense staples and only force gren out again. With spikes being as good as they are rn, the amount of switching gren has to do just to chip gear and ferro wear it down far too quickly. Conversely, if you use ash gren, you can not use protean gren, and this can actually often be a significant opportunity cost in the current meta. I won't go over how good protean gren is, someone already did that, but something worth mentioning is that having protean gren in lures out the av mags, ferros, tangs etc, letting you Z-dig, hp fire, or gunk shot respectively. I mention this because an argument to be made for gren's case is its sure ability to chip away at its checks as the game progresses, allowing something that benefits from those mons being weak, like koko, lele, magearna etc, to come in and clean. While this is certainly true, protean gren chips the checks much better with its ability to lure and smack any of the ash gren checks depending on how you specialise the set to your own need - protean gren is allowed an immense movepool, ash gren is not. Your only optional moves on ash gren are for the fourth slot, and only between spikes and u-turn (and maybe ice beam if you're determined to lose games.) I want to stress that A+ isn't negative at all, ash gren is still extremely potent and viable, particularly in offense v offense and late game, but it's flaws in the current meta are too great to keep it in S right now. All this is worse when you consider it's contemporaries in S, in that heatran landorus and gear have much stronger cases for S right now, and stand head and shoulders above ash gren in viability (but again, A+ is still a very viable ranking).
I also want to add, in case anyone does want to refute this drop, that for 90% of the game this thing will be in its base form, so I trust you'll take that into consideration.

So first of all i dont agree with this at all, the reason things like bulu,ferro,mage,pex etc are used so much is because of how good ash gren is. S rank mons will define metas and i see gren doing that by forcing you to run things like bulu and fini or pex + a dark resist/smth like celes or ferro. The same argument can be used against stuff like heatran but that doesnt change how good it really is. Ash gren is also a great spiker regardless of the fact that it gets locked into it because when you click spikes you expect ur oppo to go to smth like fini or bulu n know ur gonna switch the next turn reagardless, these spikes then later help chip down its checks while also giving the entire team momentum. I also think you ignored the fact that mons is a game where you bring 6 mons, which means gren often has support to help chip checks down so it can clean late game and that support means that things like fini or bulu might have to take chip from other mons that force them to come in or they may get lured opening the door for ash gren. You also mentioned and i quote ''protean gren is allowed an immense movepool, ash gren is not'' this is true but ash gren doesnt need that movepool when it can abuse dark,hydro/surf,spikes and water shuriken perfectly to the point where you dont really need other moves [tean gren is also incredibly prediction based]. You also made many comparisons with tean gren when tean gren and ash gren serve semi different roles. protean gren acts as a breaker/pivot while ash gren is more of a cleaner, comparing them directly should be avoided. You also mentioned that any cleaner cleans if the check goes down which is true but ash gren does that job better than pretty much any cleaner there is.

with that said i disagree and think ash gren should stay S

 

[Jordy]

Moving on, I'd like for Mega Scizor to move to B+

This current metagame is Mega Scizor's worst nightmare. Heatran and Celesteela, 2 mons Scizor fails to break with it's normal SD set, are at very high points of usage, as well as Toxapex even existing hurts Scizor alot. It also doesn't really provide much utility as a steel type anymore, as things it would somewhat switch into, such as moonblast-locked Lele, Clefable, and other things of that sort just aren't as common or carry coverage/different sets now that Scizor struggles vs, e.g. Flamethrower Clefable and Fire Fang MMawile. Overall, Scizor isn't as good as it's current A- rank reflects, and I feel B+ warrants it's place in the metagame better.

I really disagree with this nomination. Most of the points presented are wrong and I'd like to use this post to provide reasoning as to why. Heatran does not want to take a Superpower, nor Knock Off, which are both commonly run. In Celesteela's case, it is just far too quickly worn down by Mega Scizor, especially by Knock Off variants. You also mention Pokemon like Clefable and Mega Mawile commonly running Fire-type coverage, but Clefable would much rather use Knock Off, Thunder Wave, or Calm Mind ~85% of the time (Flamethrower and Fire Blast make up ~15% of Clefable's moveslots(based on 1695 stats)). Also, AoA Mega Mawile have run Fire Fang for a while, so that is nothing new for Mega Scizor to deal with. As a matter of fact, AoA Mega Mawile would rather run Brick Break as of right now, which is actually something in favor of Mega Scizor. Furthermore, the fact that Mega Scizor has more freedom to run Special Defense actually means it's quite a nice check to most Magearna sets and Mega Alakazam, too, which is obviously great.

If Mega Scizor were to drop for any reason, it would be for the uptick in Zapdos usage, but I believe that Mega Scizor's positives outweigh its cons by far and mean that it can stay where it is.

I don't have much to add to what has already been said about it, but I think Ash-Greninja is fine in S.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I really disagree with this nomination. Most of the points presented are wrong and I'd like to use this post to provide reasoning as to why. Heatran does not want to take a Superpower, nor Knock Off, which are both commonly run. In Celesteela's case, it is just far too quickly worn down by Mega Scizor, especially by Knock Off variants. You also mention Pokemon like Clefable and Mega Mawile commonly running Fire-type coverage, but Clefable would much rather use Knock Off, Thunder Wave, or Calm Mind ~85% of the time (Flamethrower and Fire Blast make up ~15% of Clefable's moveslots(based on 1695 stats)). Also, AoA Mega Mawile have run Fire Fang for a while, so that is nothing new for Mega Scizor to deal with. As a matter of fact, AoA Mega Mawile would rather run Brick Break as of right now, which is actually something in favor of Mega Scizor. Furthermore, the fact that Mega Scizor has more freedom to run Special Defense actually means it's quite a nice check to most Magearna sets and Mega Alakazam, too, which is obviously great.

If Mega Scizor were to drop for any reason, it would be for the uptick in Zapdos usage, but I believe that Mega Scizor's positives outweigh its cons by far and mean that it can stay where it is.

I don't have much to add to what has already been said about it, but I think Ash-Greninja is fine in S.

I disagree since Scizor does get both those moves but can't run then together effectively. Using both means it loses access to two of either SD, U-Turn, Bullet Punch or Roost which are all better than the coverage you get from the other two moves together. Knock Off doesn't do much to Heatran if it's holding a Z move and running Superpower means it can't cripple counters like Toxapex or Zapdos. Celesteela is not easily worn down by Scizor since it basically gets a free Leech Seed into Protect on the switch in.

Also, in order to get the most out of Superpower, it would have to run a more offensive set which would make it overall less bulky. Lele is a huge problem as well since it's a poke that can counter it pretty well just by having terrain around.

Having a great defensive typing, a strong priority STAB move and probably the hardest hitting U turn in OU are all really great tools to have but I'm not sure the pros outweigh the cons though especially at the cost of a Mega evo slot.

 

[Ewin]

I would like to nominate mega Garchomp for C+

So I really felt like mega chomp should be C+ esp after the Zygarde ban. Mega chomp has been seeing some usage in SPL and has overall improved post Zygarde ban, mega chomps ability to set rocks and be a breaker is quite nice, sr mixed mega chomp is also a very good setter and can do massive damage to mega chomps checks.

252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 241-285 (75.5 - 89.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Rotom-Wash: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-426733 [replay of mixed sr mega chomp putting in some work in spl]

Mega Garchomp can also run a Sd set when paired with sand giving it even more breaking power allowing it to break stalls and most bo's and balances. Sd mega chomp also eats into common cores such as celes pex , bulu tran, pex mage, celes ferro and many more. This version of mega chomp is a nice breaker and has seen some success.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-422573 [replay of mega chomp cleaning late game in spl]

With that said I also believe this meta favors mega chomp quite a bit. Megas chomp ability to abuse popular defensive cores and be a good rocker put in a good position in the current meta game. Its speed tier isnt the best but you can still hold off on the mega till you need it and mega chomps good bulk can compensate for its mediocre speed tier.

 

[JetpackPotatoes]

So first of all you mentioned how knock doesnt do much to z heatrans which really isnt the case when you take sr + knock chip into account

176+ Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 79-93 (24.4 - 28.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 63-75 (19.5 - 23.2%) -- 18.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

offensive variants can do about 26% + 12% with rocks and bulkier variants still do a good amount too and that amount of chip on a mon that has no reliable recovery and will also have to come in on other mons is pretty decent and if tran is lefties knock does about 27% [zero attack zor] to spdef variants while also knocking off its form of recovery which is really nice if mega zor is paired with something like shift gear mage.

Mons like cele ,zap and pex all dont like taking knocks to the face esp zap and celes. Some zap and celes variants cant actually hit zor either like eq celes or roost fog hp ice zap.

0 Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 80-95 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 94-111 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 69-82 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

176+ Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 100-118 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
176+ Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 117-138 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
176+ Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 85-101 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

both offensive and defensive variants force zapdos,pex and celes to recover [in celes's case leech] which pretty much gives you a free switch and momentum. You do get walled by those mons but after a knock u cripple them alot opening up the door for your cleaners in the back. Zor doesnt always have to be a cleaner and can support teams very well by knocking off mons like zap which other mons may appreciate. You can also debate on if you should use zor for the mega slot but its pros def outweigh its cons and is a nice at cleaning/supporting and generally just being annoying.

I dont really see any reason why zor should drop to B+ other than the fact that zone and zap have been seeing more usage but even both of those are really annoyed by superpower/knock.

I don't want to say I'm decided for either side of this M-Scizor discussion and this post seems to have been deleted, but I'd like to make a point to what you've said about Scizor clicking knock isn't as free as you claim.

Vs. Zapdos:
-If its static, you're risking a para when you hit it.
-If rocks aren't up, it can reasonably afford to not immediately click roost and fish for a para on Scizor teammate's switch in with discharge. Lando and chomp don't like risking coming in on HP ice.

Vs Celesteela
-You mention Leech, and with protect cele can chip switch ins for 25% if there isn't something like volc, zarx or reuni on the opp team, the former two of which pex can deal with(admittedly you cannot protect and then go into pex while zard x is out, psy z volc exits but really isn't common). Getting knocked isn't great for steela, but it's not a great moment for the scizor team's overall either in most cases.

Vs Pex
-Regen means it really isn't taking much from Scizor's knock if you switch after scizor switches, and if sciozr isn't atk invested it goes back to full.
-On the turn Scizor switches, pex is thus free to click toxic/tspike/scald, either wearing threats down and also creating pressure to defog in tspikes' case.

None of these mons appreciate a knock from Scizor; but Scizor's team does not appreciate letting these mons in on a knock.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Knock Off is just a great move in general so I don't feel that's really a good point. The fact that you see pokes like Toxapex, Alakazam and Clef use it kinda proves that.
Also, the pokes that take that amount of damage from Knock Off are gonna be taking significantly less after they get their item knocked off making it easier to take hits later in and recover the damage, fish for Para, set up t spikes or try to burn/poison the switch in.

Scizor can't really risk playing a 50/50 game against it's counters since guessing wrong means you lose it and the risks don't really outweigh the rewards.

 

[DERPGengar10]

I don't want to say I'm decided for either side of this M-Scizor discussion and this post seems to have been deleted, but I'd like to make a point to what you've said about Scizor clicking knock isn't as free as you claim.

Vs. Zapdos:
-If its static, you're risking a para when you hit it.
-If rocks aren't up, it can reasonably afford to not immediately click roost and fish for a para on Scizor teammate's switch in with discharge. Lando and chomp don't like risking coming in on HP ice.

Vs Celesteela
-You mention Leech, and with protect cele can chip switch ins for 25% if there isn't something like volc, zarx or reuni on the opp team, the former two of which pex can deal with(admittedly you cannot protect and then go into pex while zard x is out, psy z volc exits but really isn't common). Getting knocked isn't great for steela, but it's not a great moment for the scizor team's overall either in most cases.

Vs Pex
-Regen means it really isn't taking much from Scizor's knock if you switch after scizor switches, and if sciozr isn't atk invested it goes back to full.
-On the turn Scizor switches, pex is thus free to click toxic/tspike/scald, either wearing threats down and also creating pressure to defog in tspikes' case.

None of these mons appreciate a knock from Scizor; but Scizor's team does not appreciate letting these mons in on a knock.

Ok for one, scizor having the para speed drop isn't that bad because of bullet punch priority. Also there are plenty of bulky mon that can take on a zapdos like ferro or chansey or other specially bulky mon. I agree with you on steela, but scizor is great against pex. Sdance to negate burn atk drop, knock off to get rid of sludge, and immunity to tspikes, making defog sets even more potent.

 

[Sickist]

Ok for one, scizor having the para speed drop isn't that bad because of bullet punch priority. Also there are plenty of bulky mon that can take on a zapdos like ferro or chansey or other specially bulky mon. I agree with you on steela, but scizor is great against pex. Sdance to negate burn atk drop, knock off to get rid of sludge, and immunity to tspikes, making defog sets even more potent.

The speed drop can be crippling. Being able to U-turn on slower mons that usually carry coverage is key for Scizor, and being Paralyzed can be a major hinderance to the Scizor-user's momentum. The speed drop means the difference between U-turning on Celesteela and other things that Scizor would U-turn on and Scizor being severely crippled or even just removed from the game.

 

[DERPGengar10]

View attachment 164512

I would like to nominate mega Garchomp for C+

So I really felt like mega chomp should be C+ esp after the Zygarde ban. Mega chomp has been seeing some usage in SPL and has overall improved post Zygarde ban, mega chomps ability to set rocks and be a breaker is quite nice, sr mixed mega chomp is also a very good setter and can do massive damage to mega chomps checks.

252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 241-285 (75.5 - 89.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Rotom-Wash: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-426733 [replay of mixed sr mega chomp putting in some work in spl]

Mega Garchomp can also run a Sd set when paired with sand giving it even more breaking power allowing it to break stalls and most bo's and balances. Sd mega chomp also eats into common cores such as celes pex , bulu tran, pex mage, celes ferro and many more. This version of mega chomp is a nice breaker and has seen some success.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-422573 [replay of mega chomp cleaning late game in spl]

With that said I also believe this meta favors mega chomp quite a bit. Megas chomp ability to abuse popular defensive cores and be a good rocker put in a good position in the current meta game. Its speed tier isnt the best but you can still hold off on the mega till you need it and mega chomps good bulk can compensate for its mediocre speed tier.

I didnt even see this. Let me elaborate on the trashiness of Mchomp. For one, it's slower than a normal garchomp. It also has a much worse ability, having to be paired with sand setters like ttar. Mchomp also can't hold an item, keeping it from running lorb helmet or choice sets. The calcs you made are kinda irrelevant because of the 12 and 31 percent chanses except for rotom, and if you are running Mchomp, why would you even run meteor? Its Atk is far superior to its Spa, albeit good.

 

[Colonel M]

I didnt even see this. Let me elaborate on the trashiness of Mchomp. For one, it's slower than a normal garchomp. It also has a much worse ability, having to be paired with sand setters like ttar. Mchomp also can't hold an item, keeping it from running lorb helmet or choice sets. The calcs you made are kinda irrelevant because of the 12 and 31 percent chanses except for rotom, and if you are running Mchomp, why would you even run meteor? Its Atk is far superior to its Spa, albeit good.

Let me elaborate on the trashiness of this post.

For one, the Speed is somewhat valid, but you're not running MegaChomp to be a speedy threat. It's still fairly fast enough as we have seen with other breakers like Lando-T. Secondly, Life Orb is rocky because it takes away longevity and Choice sets are garbage for Garchomp because it has two different STABs to kill its momentum and lacks U-turn like Lando-T does. I've seen ScarfChomp like once in SPL (and it lost. Horribly). Z Crystals or Rocky Helmet are usually your go-to items for Chomp. Third, it does not always have to be paired with Tyranitar. Many Mega Chomp teams use it without sand just fine. Meteor is used against more physically bulky Pokemon such as Hippowdon and said Rotom-W, where it would need SD or a lot of chip to break through. It also makes Fire Blast more potent if Tapu Bulu switches into Mega Chomp.

Though uncommon Mega Chomp has definitely been pulling its weight and while I cannot completely attest to the person who originally wanted it to rise, I agree that it should go up to C+. Its good to be Mega Chomper rn.

Edit: I was informed talah nommed it first to go up, so I support his post.

 

[War Incarnate]

I didnt even see this. Let me elaborate on the trashiness of Mchomp. For one, it's slower than a normal garchomp. It also has a much worse ability, having to be paired with sand setters like ttar. Mchomp also can't hold an item, keeping it from running lorb helmet or choice sets. The calcs you made are kinda irrelevant because of the 12 and 31 percent chanses except for rotom, and if you are running Mchomp, why would you even run meteor? Its Atk is far superior to its Spa, albeit good.

As someone who is a fan of Mega Garchomp, seeing someone say that MegaChomp is trash really breaks my heart. Sure, its speed is not that good, but besides, MegaChomp was not meant to be a fast threat. Shit, it's fast enough to break Magearna and Lando-T, two of the most dominant mons in this metagame. Life Orb is bad on standard Garchomp, besides, I've never tried it, and for good reasons. It chips Garchomp down, meaning that you are put on a timer just for attacking. Sand Force isn't that good, yes, but Mega Garchomp already hits really hard, so you don't really need Sand support. I've actually made teams that don't have the stereotypical MegaChomp+Ttar core in the past, and none of those teams disappointed me. Draco Meteor is used to smash physical tanks that it would need a lot of chip damage to break, such as Rotom-W and Gliscor, while Fire Blast is a better alternative for smashing Tapu Bulu and Magearna when they attempt to switch in. If anything, Mega Garchomp isn't trash. I think it's really good in a Magearna-infested meta.
Hence, I say

to C+.
All credit goes to talah, uwu Sith Lord uwu, and Ewin.

 

[NotInMyChristianServer]

As someone who is a fan of Mega Garchomp, seeing someone say that MegaChomp is trash really breaks my heart. Sure, its speed is not that good, but besides, MegaChomp was not meant to be a fast threat. Shit, it's fast enough to break Magearna and Lando-T, two of the most dominant mons in this metagame. Life Orb is bad on standard Garchomp, besides, I've never tried it, and for good reasons. It chips Garchomp down, meaning that you are put on a timer just for attacking. Sand Force isn't that good, yes, but Mega Garchomp already hits really hard, so you don't really need Sand support. I've actually made teams that don't have the stereotypical MegaChomp+Ttar core in the past, and none of those teams disappointed me. Draco Meteor is used to smash physical tanks that it would need a lot of chip damage to break, such as Rotom-W and Gliscor, while Fire Blast is a better alternative for smashing Tapu Bulu and Magearna when they attempt to switch in. If anything, Mega Garchomp isn't trash. I think it's really good in a Magearna-infested meta.
Hence, I say

to C+.
All credit goes to talah, uwu Sith Lord uwu, and Ewin.

Agreed, as someone who has used both Chomps I can say that they play kinda similar roles (both are Rockers), but with some perks that are more useful in certain situations than in others.
Regular Chomp uses it's quite high speed to deal with base 100 or lower such as the Zards, Mega Medicham, Victini, Tapu Lele and Kyurem, among others. Rough Skin let's it play a bulkier role, while Z-Moves nuke away what would be checks.
Mega Chomp, on the other hand, relies more on sheer power and/or coverage to do it's job. It can be used as a wallbreaker able to dismantle Stall thanks to Sand Force boosting it's Earthquake (bypassing Unaware), or as a Rocker that lures common Regular Chomp checks like Rotom-W, Landorus-T, Celesteela and Skarmory (lol), making use of it's respectable 120 base Special Attack.
However, this isn't the main point of this post. Mix M-Chomp's luring capabilities are more valuable now than ever due to Zyg's ban increasing the usage of the aformentioned Regular Chomp checks, and the fact that there's plenty of ways to cover it's speed issue (Status, saving up the mega until it's really necesary like Megabro, abundance of pivots in the tier, etc.) means that it isn't M-Chomp's main drawback (other megas that are more common and Regular Chomp having access to both a better ability and stronger options like Life Orb last gen and now Z-Moves are).

Long story short: Mega Chomp has enough reasons to rise, given that Rotom-W doesn't like to eat a Draco Meteor and Ground-Immune Steel Types take a good chunk from Fire Blast. Agree

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Gliscor is too high in my opinion. Outclassed by Lando and Chomp for the most part and the slight advantages it has over them are not enough to warrant such a high placing on the rankings

B+ or B

 

[Dreadfury]

Gliscor is too high in my opinion. Outclassed by Lando and Chomp for the most part and the slight advantages it has over them are not enough to warrant such a high placing on the rankings

B+ or B

Something that is basically immune to status and an amazing Knock Off switchin after its first turn out, has access to Defog AND Stealth Rock AND Swords Dance AND reliable recovery in Roost, an incredible Stallbreaker courtesy of its access to Taunt alongside reliable recovery and status immunity, and a movepool that enables several incredibly diverse sets is not a B or B+ mon. Gliscor has an incredible amount of utility and compresses a great deal of roles and is versatile enough in what roles it can perform that it can find its home on a wide array of teams including Stall.

You're massively undervaluing what precisely Gliscor does in this meta if you think it's outclassed by Lando or Chomp even though their similarities are in their typing, Swords Dance, and Stealth Rock. None of Gliscor's advantages over them are even remotely small and in general you don't even have an argument for it dropping. What are those "slight advantages?" In what sense does Chomp or Lando outclass it? And more importantly, what has shifted to make it so much worse that it's suddenly worthy of being dropped to B?

Keep Gliscor where it is please lmao

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Something that is basically immune to status and an amazing Knock Off switchin after its first turn out, access to Defog AND Stealth Rock AND Swords Dance AND reliable recovery in Roost, an incredible Stallbreaker courtesy of its access to Taunt alongside reliable recovery and status immunity, and a movepool that enables several incredibly diverse sets is not a B or B+ mon. Gliscor has an incredible amount of utility and compresses a great deal of roles and is versatile enough in what roles it can perform that it can find its home on a wide array of teams including Stall.

You're massively undervaluing what precisely Gliscor does in this meta if you think it's outclassed by Lando or Chomp even though their similarities are in their typing, Swords Dance, and Stealth Rock. None of Gliscor's advantages over them are even remotely small and in general you don't even have an argument for it dropping. What are those "slight advantages?" In what sense does Chomp or Lando outclass it? And more importantly, what has shifted to make it so much worse that it's suddenly worthy of being dropped to B?

Keep Gliscor where it is please lmao

I agree that it can compress a bunch of roles but the thing is that it is good but not great at it.
All Gliscor really has going for it are a few more points in speed over Lando, Poison Heal and Roost. Everything else can be done better by the two I mentioned because of Z crystals (and higher base attack) and Torn is a better overall Taunt/Defogger. It's an OU mon that gets outclassed by other OU mons but it's still a really good OU mon. It can do what Lando/Chomp and Torn can do, just not as well as they can

It might not be B but I could definitely see it somewhere in B+ with Pokes like Excadrill. Something just doesn't seem right about having it in the same tier as Pokes like Chansey