Project PU Theorymon

Now for the other theorymon of the week,

Stealth Rock calculating damage like Spikes
Just so everyone’s on the right page, this change will make Steath Rock do a flat 1/8 of a Pokemon’s health when they enter battle. Similarly to the standard Stealth Rock, this variant can hit levitating and flying pokemon as well, but will always do 1/8 of their total health. Magic Guard pokemon remain immune, however. There’s not much to say generally about this change aside from certain pokemon changing in viability such as...

The Winners
These pokemon benefit from this change, as the standard Stealth Rock cripple them to certain extents by cutting into their bulk, but losing 1/8 compared to 1/4 or even 1/2 of their health is a big improvement. Some pokemon may improve due to their checks taking more than usual from Stealth Rock, or have a good match up against the pokmon directly getting better due to the change.

Defoggers

These pokemon fall under the category of Defoggers weak to the standard Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock usually tends annoy these pokemon as they attempt to find an opportunity to do their job, and in some cases forced them to use their recovery move more than they would like. The new Stealth Rock would give these defoggers more breathing room and chances to switch in safely, as they would obviously be chipped much slower. Articuno is the biggest winner here, with it usually having a horrible quad-weakness to Stealth Rock, it now becomes an absolute nightmare for balance to effectively pressure and becomes incredibly effective on stall. It would be very likely that a higher tier would take Articuno by usage if this change to Stealth Rock was applied, but it would be very frustrating to defeat down here in PU.

Bug Types

Bug types are fairly uncommon in current day PU, outside Scyther, but the new Stealth Rock can give rise for more popularity and viability for different bugs. Scyther, and even its inferior competition in Ninjask, are obvious benefiters of this change without having to worry about half their health being gone on a switch in. This would make choice sets in particular easier to use, as they don’t have the luxury of Roost to alleviate the usual Stealth Rock weakness, thus making them more effective pivoters and spammers of U-turn. Shuckle’s main selling point over competition like Smeargle as a webber is its longevity, and this new change only solidifies that strength and allows Shuckle to play mid game easier. Even something as silly a Butterfree can, at the very least, receive new attention and usage, with Choice Specs sets not being as frail, or Quiver Dance sets even.

Fire Types

At the moment, PU lacks many stand out fire types, with previous ones getting banned or rising by usage, but reduced Stealth Rock damage can give other fire types a chance to shine. The mini Moltres known as Oricorio has an obvious glaring weakness to regular Stealth Rock, so heavily reducing this weakness opens up opportunities as a new fighting and Lilligant check for teams. It’s possible Oricorio would adopt similar sets to the other Oricorio forms, being the fat set, and the offensive Calm Mind set. Rapidash is one of those mons better on paper than in practice, but part of that is being forced to Morning Sun more often than preferred, thus having the new Stealth Rock be an obvious buff and helps mitigate that issue. Turtonator’s an odd pokemon but taking less chip upon switch in allows Turtonator to capitalize on its bulk to set up and/or tank hits from choice scarfers.

Ice types

With their infamously awful defensive typing, ice types can use all the help they can get in terms of taking hits, and a new Stealth Rock is a big step in the right direction for them. Aurorus and Abomasnow can depend more on raw bulk so they get more chances to break. Regice mitigates a big weakness in hazards to check threats like Lilligant and Swanna easier. Avalugg’s capable of capitalizing on its insane bulk and is not pressured to Recover as often, while also being more appealing as a spinner.

Pokemon benefiting indirectly

I believe these pokemon benefit indirectly, as they have decent match ups against most of the aftermentioned pokemon that directly benefit from the new Stealth Rock. They are capable of pressuring most of them through typing, with rock types appreciating ground and steel types taking more from Stealth Rock, and Alolan Raichu capable of setting up on these pokemon with the threat of its Z move. Jellicent can defensively check fire, bug, and ice types while remaining directly unaffected by Stealth Rock.

The Losers
These pokemon get worse in viability, to varying degrees and for different reasons. Defensive and bulky pokemon may not appreciate the extra chip from the new Stealth Rock, as it leaves them more prone to being worn down. Certain pokemon may get indirectly worse, just like how some may get indirectly better, due to their checks becoming more prominent, or their better match ups becoming less relevant.

Bulky Ground types

Ground types taking an additional 6% may not be a big deal for pokemon like Alolan Dugtrio, but when defensive grounds like Mudsdale are needed for checking Lycanroc and Aggron, the extra chip starts to show in the long run. It does not help that Mudsdale and Stunfisk lack reliable recovery, and thus are easier to pressure from coming in as much.

Fighting types

The many fighting types populating PU would dislike the change to Stealth Rock for obvious reasons. Gurdurr, Hitmonchan, and Poliwrath all rely on their bulk to gain openings to switch in and effectively check various threats, but added Stealth Rock damage makes their job more difficult to outlast their checks. Hitmonchan in particular is also a hazard remover, so winning the hazard game becomes a lot harder with it constantly switching in on Stealth Rock. Even Primeape does not appreciate being chipped into range of Carracosta Aqua Jet or Togedemaru Iron Head quicker than usual.

Pokemon hindered indirectly

As you can probably tell, the pokemon who got better with the changes all pressure grass types quite easily through typing. Mesprit I think also would indirectly get slighty worse, with Defoggers not minding the Stealth Rock damage as much, as well as the bug types, along with certain special breakers capable of pressuring it as well.
————————————————————
But wait, there’s more! I would like to put forth some ideas for future weeks.
What if Pursuit did not exist?
What if Snow Warning was banned?
What if there was a Trick Room extender?​
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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Let's give this one more try if anyone's still watching. Custap Berry is finally going to be released, around January 8th according to Serebii. Who are you interested in using it with? Any non-Sturdy uses you imagine having for it?
 
Let's give this one more try if anyone's still watching. Custap Berry is finally going to be released, around January 8th according to Serebii. Who are you interested in using it with? Any non-Sturdy uses you imagine having for it?
Well, it'll likely see use with Omastar and maybe Regirock but probably not. My mind came to Golem and Crustle and while this item WILL boost the viability of these mons, I'm not sure by how much.

Entry hazard setters get the biggest buff from this item's existence. Though sadly in terms of non-hazard usage I can't seem to find any that would work very well.
 

SergioRules

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I have a few uses I can think of Custap that would work pretty well.

1) Stealth Rock: So the obvious one is using stuff like Golem and Crustle to get up hazards before they die. Made for a good Golem set in ORAS of course, and I think it could raise its viability a little bit. Also allows Explosion users to blow up and prevent Defog in a dire situation. It'll be a good change for these Pokemon, but not really sure how much better it will make them until we see it.

2) Rapid Spin: On the opposite side of hazards, Custap allows for Pokemon like Alolan Sandslash and Kabutops to get a last ditch Rapid Spin off even against faster Pokemon. Kabutops sticks out to me since it can also use Endure to ensure that it'll be in Custap range.

3) Destiny Bond: For bulkier users like Qwilfish, Weezing, and possibly Gourgeist, a Custap Destiny Bond can allow them to take down a more powerful foe that is either set up already or that the rest of the team can't handle.

Won't be a completely meta changing item, but I'm sure it'll find its uses on some Pokemon.
 
If anyone asks you heard it about here first. The combination of Custap Berry + Endure + Harvest is back. This combo was briefly legal on Showdown in gen 6 on Trevenant and me and my friends had a lot of fun with it before it was realized that there weren't actually Endure tutors in ORAS. Tropius learns Endure too, but it is illegal with Harvest. However, thanks to Gen 2 Virtual Console transfers (Endure's a TM in gen 2), this combo is legal on Exeggutor and Exeggutor-Alola.

Exeggutor-Alola @ Custap Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Seed Bomb/Dragon Hammer
- Earthquake/Any Coverage
- Endure

Endure's role on this set is two-fold: It can let you take the hit necessary to get into Custap range, and it can also let you stall for an extra turn, potentially letting you recover your berry with Harvest. Basically, set up Swords Dance if you can and take a hit that puts you in Harvest range, using Endure if you need to to get in range. Now you can take out a foe with your attack and have a 50% chance of recovering the berry again the next turn so you can do it again. If you don't recover it you can use Endure again so you get another chance at recovering it. This sort of thing can be great against fast offensive teams cause you can bypass their speed and take them out before they can hit you. Of course you are still vulnerable to priority. You can also this sort of thing to stop opposing sweepers, as you will always be able to take a hit with Endure and hit them back and still have a good chance to recover your berry afterward.

Exeggutor-Alola @ Custap Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Flamethrower
- Energy Ball
- Sleep Powder

Here's a special set. You can run this on regular Exeggutor if you want to use Psychic stab. It doesn't have a boosting move like the other set which is a shame so it has Sleep Powder instead. Being able to put a foe to sleep with priority is pretty good and it can let you outplay Sucker Punches.

I wish this combo were legal on Trevenant though. You could do some nutty stuff with Phantom Force as the Harvest rolls could potentially end up giving you a Divecats-esque immunity (Custap activates as you disappear leaving you invulnerable for the turn, the next turn you don't recover the berry and hit with a slow Phantom force, evading your faster opponent's attack that turn). Tropius could do something similar with SD and Fly if it were legal (68 base attack lol). It could also give you another turn to potentially recover your berry but leaves you fucked by Rocky Helmet and contact-damage abilities.

Anyway it would be fun to see if anyone can make this combo actually work. It's a little (very) cheesy but it's pretty fun.
 
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Swanna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Ice Beam
- U-turn

I have taken it upon myself to revive this desolate thread:blobtriumph:

I have always been curious as for why Swanna can't learn Hydro Pump nor U-turn. The majority of special attacking Water-Types can learn Hydro Pump, so why not Swanna? The same can be said for U-Turn and bird Pokemon. Anyways, the ability to pivot with Swanna would be amazing, as you could gain momentum off of its checks like Lanturn and Eelektross. Hydro Pump would give Swanna more offensive presence in general. I chose Choice Specs for this Theorymon because I feel that with the new ability to pivot as well as a far stronger Water STAB, Swanna could get away with being a decent wallbreaker. Along with its great Speed tier, it hits quite hard for its okayish base 87 Special Attack, as seen here:

252 SpA Choice Specs Swanna Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 165-195 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Swanna Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 165-195 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Swanna Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Sandslash-Alola: 204-240 (57.6 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

might elaborate more later :)
or not.
 
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Ktütverde

of course
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Dugtrio-Alola @ Leftovers
Ability: Tangling Hair
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin


Ok, I know PU is the tier with the most viable spinners, but I feel like gamefreak hasn't given rapidspin to enough pokémons, which is sad because it's an amazing move. I was very sad when OU banned pheromosa, because i loved its fast rapidspin to support offensive teams (ofc GF had to give it 137 spatk and icebeam so it ends up being broken af yikes). Also see how good is rapid spin in OMs: rapidspin chansey in stabmons, rapidspin registeel in BH...

I've been thinking for a while of how different tiers would be if rapidspin was more common: defog is fine, but spin>>>defog since u can keep ur own entry hazards up. Also defoggers are weak to stealth rock in general which kinda sucks.

Also, I have a list inside my head with all the mons that "deserve" rapidspin:
-round pokemons, ie: golem, spheal, whirlipede, togedemaru, electrode, also wormadam
-agile mons: primeape, scyther, jumpluff
-drill-like pokémons, or just mons that dig underground: onix, dugtrio, dunsparce


So I thought I would post Rapid Spin dugtrio, which seems to me 100% legit. Idk if it would be used a lot, but I genuinely think that a support set with EQ+toxic+tect would be great in PU since nothing is immune to ground+toxic, while protect and rapidspin are good utility to stall mesprit, and recover health while maintaining momentum vs scarfers or just racking up toxic damage on ghost types for example. I would really love to have a spin dugtrio :3
 
hi I got bored and enjoy making these posts more than posts on the actual metagame

What if Spikes didn’t exist?
This theorymon aims to paint a rough image of how the meta would change if Spikes suddenly were no longer a factor and certain changes specific Pokemon would have to make.

Less volatile offensive teams
Spikes can sometimes be the driving force for certain offensive teams for help in breaking down various checks and putting further pressure on a team’s hazard control. However, without Spikes for assistance, this makes handling many offensive threats much less of a toss-up and gives Pokemon without reliable recovery like Metang, Gurdurr, Mudsdale, etc. greater leeway in how they can play, as they can stay as healthy as they need to be with less issue. This also applies to hazard removers that normally struggle with Spikes such as Hitmonchan and the Silvally forms, increasing the viability of the tier’s removal, especially since they can struggle with the Spikes setters themselves. Considering the metagame’s current issue with it’s various offensive threats being debatably too difficult to handle, taking away Spikes as a tool would overal benefit the meta by allowing its threats to be more reliably handled.

Pokemon forced to adapt
With the removal of Spikes, many of its usual setters are forced to adopt different moveslots and niches. Of course, the viability of these Pokemon isn’t singlehandedly determined by their access to Spikes, but they would definitely get worse overall.

Froslass

As the tier’s most dominant Spike users and one of the top Pokemon overall, Froslass will likely suffer a bigger drop off compared to the rest of the Spike users, as a good amount of it’s utility comes from its speed and ability to Spike through forced switches. The importance of Spikes for Froslass is proven by the fact that every set runs it, so all sets would have to change to an extent.
Bulky Utility (Froslass) (F) @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex / Ice Beam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Protect

Life Orb (Froslass) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Will-O-Wisp

Choice Specs (Froslass) (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Trick

Choice Scarf (Froslass) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Destiny Bond
- Trick
Froslass’s various sets suffer to various extents from the loss of Spikes. The bulky set loses a lot of its usefulness, as being able to Spike on whatever it wanted was where it was best. But without Spikes, it’s not given much to do outside of annoying other utility Pokemon and spreading burns, which isn’t nearly as valuable. The Life Orb and Choice Specs sets don’t appreciate the lack of Spikes either, but they benefit more from another moveslot due to now gaining additional coverage to help them wallbreak. Choice Scarf loses a beneficial move that it could click on most switch ins, but gains a slot for emergency Destiny Bond.

Qwilfish

Qwilfish is the next best Spikes user who also falls back on them for its utility sets. However, unlike Froslass, it’s not quite as dependent on them for all of its sets, and has more solid defensive utility, so it may not suffer as much in comparison.
Bulky Utility (Qwilfish) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond / Thunder Wave
- Toxic Spikes
Qwilfish’s main Spikes set loses out on its best asset, and in return can pull together a couple of fringe options like Toxic Spikes and Destiny Bond, but overall the set isn’t as cohesive due to the unreliability of Toxic Spikes. Certain offensive sets also using Spikes can opt for other moves such as Explosion and Taunt instead, and Spikes aren’t the main draw of those sets anyways.

Roselia/Omastar

I’ll lump these two together cus they aren’t as relevant as the former two in terms of Spikes. While Roselia still has defensive utility, lacking Spikes means it doesn’t have a spammable option against various switch ins, pushing Roselia towards lesser utility. Omastar’s defensive Spikes set does miss out on another spammable hazard, but can fill in the gap easier.
Specially Defensive (Roselia) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder / Leech Seed
- Synthesis

Defensive Hazards (Omastar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Toxic Spikes / Protect
Roselia’s easiest replacement move is Sleep Powder, which is still capable of annoying many of its switch ins like Alolan Sandslash, but Leech Seed is capable of wearing down the opponent quicker. Omastar doesn’t suffer quite as bad, and appreciates the free moveslot to run moves like Toxic Spikes to wear down usual Omastar checks easier.

Now I am in no way saying we should consider banning a move to better the metagame, I just thought this would be a cool idea for people to think about ^-^ Now for something more fun.

Megahorn Pinsir

Design-wise there’s actually no reason Pinsir shouldn’t normally learn this move, but I digress. Megahorn Pinsir would be a simple but excellent buff that gives it great raw power for wallbreaking and sweeping with Swords Dance and Z-Me First sets respectively.
Swords Dance (Pinsir) @ Buginium Z / Groundium Z
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Z-Me First (Pinsir) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Me First
- Megahorn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
Megahorn grants Swords Dance variants the ability to heavily dent Mudsdale at +2 and allows Pinsir to threaten more Pokemon with unboosted Megahorn to potentially allow more set up opportunities. It also enables Buginium as a new option for a powerful nuke that also bypasses the slight chance to miss Megahorn normally. Z-Me First sets are capable of cleaning games easier due to a stronger STAB move, and once again can threaten Pokemon out easier with Megahorn for free set up.
252 Atk Pinsir Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 328-387 (105.4 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pinsir Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 346-408 (104.5 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pinsir Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Audino: 339-400 (82.8 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pinsir Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Spiritomb: 280-331 (92.4 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Pinsir Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Mudsdale: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Pinsir Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 288-340 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Pinsir Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Type: Null: 415-490 (105.3 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Pinsir Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Gastrodon: 367-433 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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I'll try my hand at this.

Rock Head Rampardos. It makes perfect sense. Look at its Pokedex descriptions mention how hard its skull is:

Pearl: Its skull is as hard as iron. It is a brute that tears down jungle trees while catching prey.

HGSS: Its skull withstands impacts of any magnitude.

Sun: The result of repeated headbutts is a skull grown thick and hard.

Ultra Sun: In ancient times, people would dig up fossils of this Pokémon and use its skull, which is harder than steel.

And yet Ramp doesn't get this ability? How? This ability would be a godsend for Ramp, as it can spam Head Smashes with no fear of recoil. Of course, it would compete with Aggron for this role, while Aggron has higher defensive stats and a secondary Steel-typing, Rampardos boasts no 4x weakness to Ground and Fighting-types and has a MUCH higher attack stat.
Here are some sample sets showing Rock Head Ramp.
Rampardos @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Superpower
- Ice Punch / Zen Headbutt / any filler move
Rampardos @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Superpower
- Whatever

Look at the sheer damage it does!

252 Atk Rampardos Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Audino: 330-388 (80.6 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Qwilfish: 223-264 (66.7 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Rampardos Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 220-259 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 204 Def Gastrodon: 232-273 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 267-314 (88.4 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Mudsdale: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Unbelievable. The only things holding it back from being a top-tier threat, however, are its aforementioned middling bulk and Speed, allowing many faster threats to revenge kill it easily. If it doesn't hold a Choice Band, it can't break through Pokemon like Gastrodon, Regirock, and AV Hitmonchan as easily and even with the Band, it still fails to break some walls.

252 Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 163-192 (42.4 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 133-157 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

TL;DR Rock Head Ramp is very powerful and can break lots of walls, but low speed and bulk hold it back
 

SergioRules

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is a Community Contributor
Been a while but I've been plotting some things that I've wanted to theorize about for a while now so here's the first one.

What if Acid Spray had better distribution?
(stunfisk's gen 6 sprite sux)
So I recently have taken a huge liking to the move Acid Spray due to the massive amount of offensive momentum it can give to a team and the switches that it forces. Especially in a Spikes heavy metagame such as the one we're in now, having a mon be at -2 SpDef then risk either taking a heavy hit or switching out and letting a teammate take it can force some really cool mind games. Unfortunately, there are only really three mons in PU that can viably use this move: Skuntank, Victreebel, and Eelektross. Qwilfish and Quagsire get it too but don't really benefit from it in most situations. If Acid Spray was more widely distributed, I think its viability on a moveset could increase dramatically. I could see Pokemon like Drampa, Guzzlord, Gastrodon, Roselia, Tangela, and Stunfisk, really benefitting from the addition of Acid Spray to their arsenals, allowing for better ability to break through SpDef walls in the case of the former two and give the latter four, which are normally seen as defensive mons, a more offensive way of threatening opponents. All of these Pokemon, in my opinion, at least have some basic reasoning in their flavor texts or other move availability to indicate that they could get this move. Some other Pokemon that I thought could benefit from this but may not fit as much with the flavor of the move are Haunter and Omastar that would definitely be more offensively threatening (though Omastar probably still wants to Shell Smash instead. (Also RIP Weezing but it would be another candidate for Acid Spray if it dropped back down here)
 

ishtar

temper madness with an even extreme
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PU Leader
Hi, it is now my time to bring some activity into this thread with something that will hopefully be of some interest.

Showcase of Ice Shard Sandslash-Alola!


This first bit of theorizing comes is regarding Pokemon Lets Go. Sandslash-Alola is able to learn Ice Shard in said game, but how would this change affect the placement of this Pokemon if this were implemented into current gen 7 USM tiers?

As it is well known, Ice Shard is an Ice-type priority move with 40 base power that Slash can’t learn outside of the Switch game as of now. In order to look at the actual functionality of this move in the current metagame its worth pointing out its different current sets in our meta: Specially defensive, offensive support, a scarf set that has seen some use as of late to great success and, of course, its hail sweeper set. Now it’s also worth pointing out some of the mons that Slash is unable to beat because of its speed without hail support, not counting obvious checks and counters such as Gurdurr and Chan: Scarfers such as Primeape, Dodrio, Pokemon such as Simisear, Stout without counting offensive Mes w/ HP, Kang and potential lures from Pokemon such as Oricorio Pom Pom and Victreebel, etc which can result troublesome to the Pokemon with a 4x weakness to Fire and Fighting.

Ice Shard could be a staple move of Slash in an offensive set, but why would you use Ice Shard when you can outspeed most of the meta under hail anyway? Well, this set would allow for a different offensive set that could function well against regular revenge killers such as Primeape and Dodrio outside of Hail. I thought that an Adamant set for Slash wouldn’t be an outrageous idea, since Slash isn’t as reliant on its speed outside of Hail thanks to the priority, as long as its supported in the right way. I was unsure as to how to fit the moves but heres what I came up with.

Sandslash-Alola @ Icium Z / Shuca Berry
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance​

I was unsure as to how to fit the moves and I still am. Some of the calcs without Adamant are a bit underwhelming but still good against top threats, and Im pretty sure that one could simply go for Rapid Spin on one of these options, but I personally have trouble finding the slot for all of the moves for the utility that this mon normally brings.
+2 252+ Atk Sandslash-Alola Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 180-213 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sandslash-Alola Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dodrio: 162-192 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sandslash-Alola Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 130-154 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sandslash-Alola Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 153-180 (47.6 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sandslash-Alola Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 318-374 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sandslash-Alola Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victreebel: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sandslash-Alola Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 160-190 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As shown by these calcs, Slash Alola is able to cause huge dents on common faster threats that would otherwise be able to KO it or force it out it due to their higher speed. While these calcs don’t show ridiculous amounts of power, the ability to wallbreak in this way would definitely come in handy for a Pokemon that’s normally so easy to take advantage of due to its weaknesses and speed (This wouldve had a great impact on the whole Lilligant situation, sadly I did not write this during Lilli meta ;-;).

Conclusion:
I started looking into this with quite a lot of excitement to see and while I do enjoy the results in terms of its offensive power, I still believe that the existing sets would function in their natural form, albeit w/ some changes. On one hand, being able to OHKO threats such as Dodrio, Victreebel (at +2) and being able to 2HKO Pokemon such as Ludicolo and Stoutland can really have a big effect on how the priority move is dealt with on a defensive level regarding the meta. Even then, the specially defensive set is able to provide great amounts of utility while our regular Hail sweeper set is able to damage stuff hard enough without the needed priority.
I personally feel like this would be a really threatening set that would be able to function extremely well in Spike stack builds since the added chip can really put a team in range of a boosted Ice Shard. As everyone knows our Ice resists suck,and Slash-A naturally has the moveset to get past a lot of them, which would inevitably force the use of hard counters such as Gurdurr, Quag, Regirock, etc which already see quite high use nowadays. So how good would this be? Really great but would exist alongside the current sets. Free Ice Shard Sandslash-Alola!

Showcase of Slack Off Mudsdale!


Mudsdale @ Leftovers / Figy Berry
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 128 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Toxic
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
Well, this one is quite interesting. To cover the usefulness of Slack Off Mudsdale its almost essential to look at a Pokemon that is quite similar to it in nature but that already has the move Slack Off in its arsenal.
177436


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Hippowdon has quite the similar stat distribution, has an ability that is able to chip down opponents as well as creating nice defensive presence due to what Sand naturally provides. The relevance of this mon in this analysis is pointing out how Mudsdale would definitely rise up in usage due to this great move. Its difficult to theorize about this considering the fact that this mon would definitely be on par or even better than the UU mon that its being compared to right now.
Stamina + Slack Off would probably allow Mudsdale to run more special defense as well as make use of different sets more efficiently. When I was first looking at the difference in stats from these two mons some of my friends and I were quite surprised by how much of a difference this move would make to our beloved donkey in terms of the tiers it would be used in.
Analizying this further would probably drift away from general PU talk considering the great perks of Mudsdale, Slack Off and its aforementioned ability so Ill just leave this here. How good would Mudsdale be if it had Slack Off? We would not see it at all in PU, and it would definitely give the big hippo competition. What do you think? Would this be UU, maybe even OU? (The spread posted is the regular PU one since its quite hard to tell how different it would be in a higher tier by simply theorizing).

Showcase of Levitate Raichu-Alola!



Raichu-Alola @ Aloraichium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Psyshock
- Grass Knot
- Nasty Plot

This one is definitely a concept that I regularly think about when utilizing this mon due to how illogical it is for it to not have Levitate (cause Pokemon is definitely based on logic and science). Having Raichu-Alola with Levitate as its hidden ability would allow it to make use of an actual useful one in PU. Would this be enough to push it into a higher tier? Lets look into how this would affect its placement in the current PU meta.

Raichu Alola is currently able to deal with Ground-types in the tier with its existing coverage moves. Despite posting the regular set, I am quite a firm believer in the Psychium Z set as well as in Focus Blast as an option for Guzz so dont take the posted set as its regularly used in...Levitate Raichu-A meta. Raichu-A would be able to take advantage of Pokemon such as Quagsire much more easily assuming its able to come in on them and even set up. It can even make use of Substitute more freely to force out switches and make use of NP alongside it to threaten scarfers. Rock Slide from Mudsdale is only able to 2HKO Raichu-A from full so you could theoretically set up on it as well.

"Pokemon like Mudsdale can check non-Grass Knot Alolan Raichu thanks to their good bulk and access to reliable recovery. Claydol is notable for having a resistance or immunity to all of Alolan Raichu's common attacks, taking very little from even a boosted Psyshock. Alolan Dugtrio Speed ties with Alolan Raichu and resists both of its STAB types."
Pokemon like Quagsire and Mudsdale are obviously not regular switch ins to Raichu-Alola but they at least stop it from coming in. As shown by this fragment of its analysis, most of these threats stop being an issue for the little mouse and turn them into setup fodder.

Despite this, Raichu-A was never naturally countered by most of the aforementioned Ground-types, which means that a lot of its original checks would still be able to threaten it just as they did before: Skunk, Persian, scarfers, Lanturn, priority from Pokemon such as Kang, etc depending on its set, but would still have to be warry of its set and wouldnt be able to naturally switch in. Same old story here.

Conclusion:
The main thing to gather from this comes in the number of setup opportunities that this change would give Raichu-A as well as the Pokemon it could naturally switch into. How big is this in the grand scheme of things? I think this would definitely turn Raichu into more of a top tier setup sweeper in the PU tier and maybe even push it up into an uper tier, though I wouldnt make that judgment myself since Im really not that knowledgeable on NU. Raichu-A would still suffer the same issues in relation to its low physical defense, its susceptibility to priority and pursuit trappers as well as its weaknesses to most of the scarfers in the tier. But again, how good would this be for the little psychic mouse? Well, really fucking good.

Im sure that theres stuff I missed regarding some of the changes that this difference in sets would provide for this 3 different Pokemon so hit me up if you feel like I missed something big or if you disagree with the value of some of these changes! Thank you so much for reading and I hope that this was fun to read!
 
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SergioRules

||blimp||
is a Community Contributor
Adding onto Kelly's part about adding the Let's Go moveset changes into current meta, I've been through the list of all the moves that got added in these games and these are what I think are some highlights:


Teleport: If Teleport keeps its effect from Let's Go, turning it into a negative priority pivoting move, I think Clefairy could benefit from being able to switch out, maybe passing a Wish or just as a scouting turn. It'd have to drop one of its already great moves, but I think if you can fit another Stealth Rock setter on a team, this could work very well. A few other mons get Teleport too but I don't think any are as notable as Clef.


Superpower: Finally this rain sweeper can use something stronger than Brick Break on a physical set. The drop to attack and defense may suck, but this could be a great addition to its rather lackluster physical movepool.

-->

Sucker Punch: Now I know Shiftry isn't a mon that was affected by the moveset changes since it wasn't in gen 1, however, Victreebel got the move as a base Lv. 1 move and if this carried over to give it to something like Shiftry, I could see a slight boost in usage since currently Sucker Punch+Leaf Blade is an impossible combination for the latter. SD set would get much better if allowed to use physical grass STAB and Sucker at the same time. This is more speculation than theorymon but I felt it deserved a mention.
Edit: yeah Shiftry has Seed Bomb for SD sets, but who wouldn't want 10 more base power and high crit ratio? Couldn't be me


Special shoutout to Moonblast Muk. Why it got this, I don't think we'll ever know.
 
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ishtar

temper madness with an even extreme
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
PU Leader
Looks like Im making it my task to bring back these threads with new content but Im really glad to have something new to talk about on here once more. Torterra has granted PU one last breath of fresh air right before the next generation, and this turtle Pokemon has been shown to be quite versatile in its roles.

Even after all of the explored options and more to come, its hard to argue that Torterra has found a place as a threatening wallbreaker, a solid defensive Pokemon and a superb rocker for teams, but what if its potential was even greater? Lets compare it to other turtle Pokemon to see how threatening Torterra could really be!

:Torterra: :Torterra: :Torterra:
Shell Smash Torterra

Rock Polish + Sword Dance sets are incredibly fun to use, but what if there was a move that allowed Torterra to boost up both its Attack and Speed? Looking at our premier Shell Smash users in the tier, its hard to deny the amount of pressure and fear that some of these Pokemon can put into battles, theyre clearly our most viable sweepers and are able to turn matches upside down thanks to the great boost and their natural options and typing. Would Torterra be able to excel as a potent sweeper or live in the shadows of Shell Smashers like Carracosta and Omastar? The answer might not surprise you.


Torterra @ Grassium Z / White Herb / Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Shell Smash

With a Speed of 422 at +2 with an Adamant nature, Torterra is probably most easily comparable to Omastar, which is only slightly slower after a Shell Smash. There actually aren’t any Choice Scarf mons that exist between this threshold but the ability to maintain a pretty bulky mon and allow it to setup easily in one turn instead of two would be a huge (and scary) blessing for it. At +2 youd still be able to outspeed relevant Choice Scarf users like Sandslash-A as well as slower Choice Scarf users like Aurorus and Abomasnow.

Another point that makes Tort different from other Smashers is its ability to really make use of White Herb effectively thanks to its natural special bulk which actually manages to eat hits from weaker Special Attackers like Persian-A, and even other ones such as Raichu-A, Haunter and Eelektross, effectively granting extra setup opportunities, trait that Pokemon such as Omastar and Carracosta simply don’t have due to lower Sp. Def or typing.

Other Pokemon like Primeape are also not able to OHKO you, even at -1 and priority users like Gurdurr do little damage with Mach Punch even at -1. (Shoutout to Specs who helped me a bit with this last paragraph by discussing some Pokemon with me).

+2 252+ Atk Torterra Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 366-432 (97.8 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 231-273 (61.7 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Torterra: 243-286 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Eelektross Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 214-252 (64.6 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Raichu-Alola Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 241-285 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


While this set is quite similar to what Double Dance is already able to fulfill, it has to be reiterated how much a turn can matter for a Pokemon like this. I truly believe this would be a terrifying sweeper and turn the tides in a match with little to no effort, potentially better than our existing Smashers. This turtle is carrying the world on its back and itll surely attempt to smash everything in its path!

:Torterra: :Torterra: :Torterra:
Rapid Spin Torterra


Torterra @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Synthesis
- Rapid Spin

PU with good removal? No way! With the rise in usage of solid removers like Cryogonal and Rotom-Frost, I just had to wonder what Rapid Spin Torterra would be able to do in a tier full of Stealth Rock setters like Muds, Regi as well as Spike setters of the likes of Qwil and Ferroseed. Torterra might not have canons on its back, but itll make sure to easily bop those hazards off the field.

Seems like Froslass dropping was the divine message that reminded me of this sets capabilities. Tort really has it all in terms of removing: Its able to threaten common Ground and Rock setters and is able to even threaten Ferroseed and Qwil in different ways.

PU players already know how great Torterra is at threatening common Rockers, but the prospect of Rapid Spin Torterra would definitely make it one of the most relevant Spinners in the tier and even force the use of Pokemon like Bronzor even more. I really doubt it would ever run Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin, since youd have to give up Synthesis which is just so great for it. Heres some calcs, you already know how well it does vs. Muds and Regi:

-1 0 Atk Torterra Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Qwilfish: 176-210 (52.6 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Qwilfish Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Torterra: 43-52 (10.9 - 13.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever

0 Atk Torterra Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 61-73 (20.8 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO


Torts design really allows the player to imagine the possibilities it could have under different circumstances and how great these would greatly improve its already superb performance. What I love about this thread is how it allows me to imagine creative ideas in a sphere of something that makes sense and could be possible but isn’t. Shoutout Specs and Urusius whom which I had great convos regarding these two options.

Maybe its good that some of the mons Ive discussed on here don’t have the buffs Ive mentioned, after all, maybe they wouldn’t be in our tier if it was for them, but theres still a lot of great fun magic to experience imagining the amount of fun this would provide for our playing experience. Thank you for reading and have fun utilizing this sick Pokemon for the rest of the gen, Keppy out.​
 
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