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the rise of cancel culture
- Thread starter RODAN
- Start date
Why does anyone get outraged about anything lol, seems like a lot of wasted emotion. If someone holds views you dislike then just don’t personally support them. If enough people do that then they’ll get the message. These coordinated shaming groups to try to force everyone to think like you are really toxic though.
Thanks for proving my point.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Yes! Posting pictures of burning shoes to protest some corporation's politics is Extreme! Nobody's career and reputation were impacted whatsoever.
On the other hands, anyone who dare to cross SJW's orthodoxy have serious risk of having life changing impact. It has happened as I explained in the quote you cut off. I also said that all groups participate in this culture, and you think that your silly picture actually challenged my point?
An outrageously false equivalence is expected and fitting for sjw behavior.
this is the definition of "fuck you got mine".
ignoring real issues does not make them go away.
and we almost had a poster itt make it thru w/o a contradiction within their post, you are the closest so far tho, with the exact take I would expect a most people to have.
in regards to your post: how do you get enough ppl to stop supporting the person with views you dislike, without engaging with those views in some way and thus setting off a 'coordinated shaming group' (the negative term in the equation, because it seems you do value communicating your dislike, even if just by withdrawing attention, of people whose views you dislike)
aristotle wrote that the person who is angry at the right things and towards the right people, and also in the right way, at the right time, for the right length of time, should be praised. However, for Aristotle there is also a defective deficiency of anger: an 'in-irascible' person does not feel anger when they should.
Now, it turns out, that Aristotle describes yet another type of deficient anger, related to the person not feeling anger when they should: there is the person who is often angry at things when they should not be. This type of person combines an excess of anger at trivial things, with a deficiency of anger towards things that are important. In a society where the stakes for meaningfully confronting oppression are frequently too high for people to express their legitimate anger, we are left with a picture of an over-irritable society to consume, these irritable individuals could seem to be surrounding us from all sides.
And yet from another perspective, that we live in an irritable society, one that gets angry at the wrong things, is a very convenient atmosphere for dismissing any anger, or any angry people, as just another example of this. In other words, it's part of an information control technique meant, in part, to precipitate the dismissal of incidents of legitimate anger in order to maintain or continue the functioning of a hierarchical ordering.
Finally, the overall message of this thread might be said to be: we should continue to be irritated by other people's anger/irritation rather than looking at the causes of it. Which once revealed, appears to be a very strange and dubious sort of argument that has a convenient authoritarian flair since it tells people not just how to act, but how to feel.
In a world where Steven Crowder and Canadian Lobster man not only exist but are hailed as geniuses, you'll have to forgive the cynic in me for thinking that cancel culture is a non-issue. "Don't say dumb shit on social media" is taught to school kids right now. While the potential for mass judgment and false accusations wiping out someone's career or reputation is a bit shit. The potential for people to say racist shit and do terrible things unchallenged on the internet is even worse.
Platform safety is fine and should be guaranteed, the masses rightfully shitting on you for your horrible opinions and practices is however a natural consequence of that platform safety.
Platform safety is fine and should be guaranteed, the masses rightfully shitting on you for your horrible opinions and practices is however a natural consequence of that platform safety.
EV
Banned deucer.
First, cancel culture is not endemic or even originating from the "SJWs" a majority of the time, not when the man with the largest platform in the world uses his clout to mock critics, celebrities, or anyone else he thinks should be publicly humiliated. He may not always call for outright cancellations, but he's certainly feeding into the machine that sustains itself on devouring anyone who steps out of line.
Second, we can't decry cancel culture on its face, as many of you have brought up examples of when it's appropriate versus when it's not. But when billions of people weren't plugged into the Internet simultaneously, at least cancel culture's predecessors (rallies, et al) only erupted over meaningful issues and not who snubbed whom at this year's Oscars or whatever. It certainly required a lot more effort to organize the masses in the city streets than on the Twittersphere. But part of me thinks even if social media weren't as prevalent, women still would have collaborated on a movement similar to #metoo, it just wouldn't have had the hashtag.
Ultimately, it's another growing pain in the evolution of the digital lifestyle. People are going to find ways to exploit or weaponize it, as the jury of our peers is exceptionally trigger happy typing behind a phone or computer. Ideally, after enough exposure, it will shrink back towards something more of a nuisance when it misfires instead of the total kablamo it has the potential of creating now.
As an example of (probably) overblown reactions, if anyone follows the MtG community or tabletop games at large, you may have come across the controversy surrounding the much beloved artist Terese Nielsen and Twitter. If you haven't, it's mainly centered on her following and/or liking conservative politicians, organizations, etc. (She also follows a number of liberal ones, too.) The firestorm has led to people calling on Wizards of the Coast to drop her as an artist and some collectors have said they'd even deface their Terese Nielsen cards. (You go ahead and mark up that $500 guru land, brah.) Anyway, a comment on this forum resonated with me. Mainly, this bit:
Second, we can't decry cancel culture on its face, as many of you have brought up examples of when it's appropriate versus when it's not. But when billions of people weren't plugged into the Internet simultaneously, at least cancel culture's predecessors (rallies, et al) only erupted over meaningful issues and not who snubbed whom at this year's Oscars or whatever. It certainly required a lot more effort to organize the masses in the city streets than on the Twittersphere. But part of me thinks even if social media weren't as prevalent, women still would have collaborated on a movement similar to #metoo, it just wouldn't have had the hashtag.
Ultimately, it's another growing pain in the evolution of the digital lifestyle. People are going to find ways to exploit or weaponize it, as the jury of our peers is exceptionally trigger happy typing behind a phone or computer. Ideally, after enough exposure, it will shrink back towards something more of a nuisance when it misfires instead of the total kablamo it has the potential of creating now.
As an example of (probably) overblown reactions, if anyone follows the MtG community or tabletop games at large, you may have come across the controversy surrounding the much beloved artist Terese Nielsen and Twitter. If you haven't, it's mainly centered on her following and/or liking conservative politicians, organizations, etc. (She also follows a number of liberal ones, too.) The firestorm has led to people calling on Wizards of the Coast to drop her as an artist and some collectors have said they'd even deface their Terese Nielsen cards. (You go ahead and mark up that $500 guru land, brah.) Anyway, a comment on this forum resonated with me. Mainly, this bit:
She posted a non-apology about it. And I say non-apology not because she faked an apology but because she really has no apologies.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
I know I’m slightly retreading here but I really fucking need to point out the first and last sentences of this paragraph. It’s astounding.
Honestly man I could try and be more in depth in my response to this but you really just seem to be mad at me??? Or something else entirely?? You’re talking about how I shouldn’t be listened to for a thing I might believe? Then you declare a personal philosophy you hold to be axiomatically true because no one has been able to prove otherwise which is a galactically intriguing glimpse into your mindset. Man you even bring up how I pointed out how a videogame wrote a sexist joke 3 years ago as like evidence of MY irrationality?
Just damn. That’s a whole ass mess of a post.
It's a pretty nice, cushy position to be in where you can't, don't, or won't feel strongly about anything. Not everyone is content to live a life of apathy, though, because nothing changes with apathy. Dialogue and discussion of these things on various platforms, open or closed, does.
It's always strange to me, reading takes like that where people seem to think that everyone who may feel strongly about something is seeking out that outrage. To a point, especially in the digital age, yes, there are people so seek outrage, who want something to be angry about. But to dismiss everyone's conviction about anything as "wasted emotion" strikes me as a take from someone who has no passion or drive for something to change.
THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Banned deucer.
Im saying that racism, for the most part, almost exclusively lives inside of your brain TheValkyries and we dont see it have much of an impact outside of the few freak shootings weve had lately and even a cursory glance at reality can prove that. Nobody has ever been radicalized by twitter comments or PewDiePie or whatever. They were insane before and even if those boards did radicalize them, nobody would go to those boards if the callout people didnt keep trying to ruin lives and write anti white and anti male articles and also paint them as Nazis for wanting less immigration or lower taxes or whatever. If you think racism is a real, modern day problem you are nuts. How about you respond to my post with some more ironic black lady question mark spam, I think thats pretty funny.
THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Banned deucer.
trolling
So, what you are basically saying is that minorities are too dumb to not commit crime or know right and wrong because they are poor? If I were black (and I pretended to be for a number of years) I'd think that would be pretty racist of you to imply. Its not an impediment to your success to be born poor; it just means you start a little farther back than most people but if you dont like make a down payment on a pair of Timberlands then your life will turn out fine.
Aren't you the same guy who wants Kamala Harris to be president? The one that locked up a bunch of black people?
Aren't you the same guy who wants Kamala Harris to be president? The one that locked up a bunch of black people?
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Never thought I'd see the day where "I think I'd know racism when I saw it because I pretended to be black online for *squints* a few years"
One this subject, something has been on my mind for a while. As you guys know, back in 2016, after the election, Jontron went on many podcasts and said some absolutely dumbass racist shit. As a result, he deservedly got a lot of backlash, loss of subscribers, partners, ect. (I really don't want an argument about this, lets just assume here he was a dumb ass)
good
Its three years later and he has pretty much become apolitical and now doesn't say such dumb ass things; the call outs worked! But... if you talk to a lot of people in social justice circles, they still vilify Jontron despite his change in direction from that garbage. I don't ever believe that he will ever be forgiven up such people, they act like this is a permanent blight on his soul or something, this kind of thinking is incredibly unhelpful and in fact counter productive to actually stopping racist propagation. After all, unless you have high ideals, why change your behavior for the better if you are continually punished?
The irony I find if that the same people would disagree with this logic as how its used in the criminal justice system.
good
Its three years later and he has pretty much become apolitical and now doesn't say such dumb ass things; the call outs worked! But... if you talk to a lot of people in social justice circles, they still vilify Jontron despite his change in direction from that garbage. I don't ever believe that he will ever be forgiven up such people, they act like this is a permanent blight on his soul or something, this kind of thinking is incredibly unhelpful and in fact counter productive to actually stopping racist propagation. After all, unless you have high ideals, why change your behavior for the better if you are continually punished?
The irony I find if that the same people would disagree with this logic as how its used in the criminal justice system.
walk it back.
The whole thing started when jontron seemingly put his "support" behind a right wing politician who wanted to limit immigration ( ) He didn't even say he agreed with the statement at the time. You could even say he was commenting on a sort of "cancel culture" around the politician's statements. Is the politician a racist? Likely. Is the statement "we cannot rebuild our society with [immigrant children]" racist? Maybe not, but it's certainly drawing that crowd. Is jontron's tweet racist? No way.
Jontron did not go on "many podcasts", he was invited to participate in a 2 hour debate with another streamer. During that stream, jontron said some questionable things, the most egregious being a "rich black people commit more crime than poor white people", and could not get a source for the claim. After the debate, jontron made a video clarifying his positions and saying that he made stupid statements that he was not prepared for. He fully admitted to not being versed in politics. He said he wouldn't be mixing his political opinions in his work in the future.
The whole thing started when jontron seemingly put his "support" behind a right wing politician who wanted to limit immigration ( ) He didn't even say he agreed with the statement at the time. You could even say he was commenting on a sort of "cancel culture" around the politician's statements. Is the politician a racist? Likely. Is the statement "we cannot rebuild our society with [immigrant children]" racist? Maybe not, but it's certainly drawing that crowd. Is jontron's tweet racist? No way.
Jontron did not go on "many podcasts", he was invited to participate in a 2 hour debate with another streamer. During that stream, jontron said some questionable things, the most egregious being a "rich black people commit more crime than poor white people", and could not get a source for the claim. After the debate, jontron made a video clarifying his positions and saying that he made stupid statements that he was not prepared for. He fully admitted to not being versed in politics. He said he wouldn't be mixing his political opinions in his work in the future.
Today jontron is as you say still villified. Once a train gets moving, it's hard to stop. Jontron and depp are both good examples. Depp was quickly judged by people before the whole story was laid out. How many people that still boycott jontron actually watched him say these racist comments?
Here's a question for you: do you think jontron "learned his lesson"? Do you think this politics changed as a result of the online mob? What if he hadn't made that tweet in 2017, would he be a closet racist today?
Or do you think he still holds the exact same political opinions today, and just has learned to not share them? I would wager it's this outcome. In which case, I think this "cancel culture" actually worked out completely opposite. Jontron's debate with destiny was a good learning experience for him. After that I'm sure he learned that a lot of the racist "facts" he was quoting weren't real. Does thousands of people chanting "you're a racist, you're a racist!" result in a "good lesson learned"?
Why should the jontron critics change their tune? I thought the whole point of the cancel movement back in 2017 was to erase jontron forever, not give him a second chance to "correct his errors". I agree with you that the people that criticize him are unhelpful, but imo because they judged him too quickly in the first place. They were not interested in preventing racism from spreading, but adding a trophy to the wall of "racists caught in the act". In the 2010s, I believe colbert was the first one.
Speaking of which, that's a fucking throwback. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-campaign-to-cancel-colbert
u havent seen my call outs, after one of them ur done 4 lyfe
i have this debate with my partner once a month it seems like because this stuff is always in the newcycle. imo the reality is more like: he is still a closet racist and he also believes less idiotic racist facts than he did before. The same pattern imo emerges with incels, (if you don't socially exclude them in response to their toxicity) their toxic beliefs/behaviors carry over long after you try the empathetic chat/listen approach to addressing their worldview problems.
if the twitter mob derides a person defending a racist political platform (ala steven king) and their views changed, then did it work?
and by the same logic, if the person doesn't change after the empathetic approach or debate approach should we then exclude them? or i would even ask, technically, should we have excluded them from the beginning?
it is people's jobs to change their own selves. jontron's life goes on, he is what he is and he was what he was. maybe he acts better now because he has changed in some ways, and in other ways he is the exact same person. (un)fortunately, we will never know exactly what goes on between his ears. but his career hasn't been ruined or even slowed, he was never big enough in the first place to draw the level of attention that would be needed to practically censor him, and I don't even see any evidence that his beliefs were changed through this process at all. He never retracted his statements, just even says that he holds no racist beliefs, even though...
i think the idea that he was debated into a better world view is unlikely because it assumes a willingness to listen rather than a willingness to concede to save face in a debate where he was gonna get rekt, but i didnt even now who this dude was until this thread, so/
ps: that tweet is pretty racist btw, how is saying that america has a white culture under threat by immigrants that are contemptuous of it anything other than racialized conspiracy mongering masquerading as the somehow more legitimate 'white nationalism'?
a big problem is that by engaging w these idiots it encourages negative attention seeking and increases the possibly racist message, which leads us back to the psychological ills of boomers
I suspect that Jontron's views probably haven't changed, but fundamentally, I don't care about what Jontron truly believes in his heart. Those are matters of Jontron with the Horned God and Saturn. For me, Jontron is a very large public figure, and the fact that people got him to stop propagating racism is a good thing. For me, a good point of contrast is Pewdiepie, who after numerous events like this (saying the N word, making people say kill all jews, showcasing nazis channels and webcomics on his channel), he has yet to actually change his behavior, he is still propagating racism, Jontron ain't, that's the difference.
You are correct that the people here calling them out have shit and unhelpful motivations, a lot of this stuff comes from a place of unquestioned emotionality of betrayal or hatred of these figures, which is completely unhelpful for actually doing anything.
Mootles!
Also, man,
I come back for a second to say hi to moot and i already regret diving into this thread.
- Actual Black Man
/flies away back to the land of massive paperwork
THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Banned deucer.
Im not a white supremacist because I dont by into racism hysteria. I never once said racism doesnt exist I just said that it isnt a real problem. Sounds like I owned you pretty hard in our debate now you are grasping at straws - otherwise known as the strawman fallacy. BTW you linked an ice cream website
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
You don't even know what a strawman fallacy is do you? Here let me show you:
Another example:
Mike Dawg wondering why you're engaging in some systemic racism denial is not a strawman, because that's a thing you're actually doing. Your motives for why are unclear.
Hope that could help!
Also I didn't even clock earlier that you tried some weird virtue signally accusation of using "Ironic Black Woman Question Marks" because I threw a bunch of them in my post to show how confused I was by your unhinged tirade. That's an A+ troll right there.
This is a strawman, you see you clearly set up a rhetorical strawman for you to attack rather than respond to anything I actually said.TIK said:
Another example:
Again not a single soul has said this and you're intentionally mischaracterizing someone else's views in order to create the illusion that you have some intellectual or moral high ground.TIK said:
Mike Dawg wondering why you're engaging in some systemic racism denial is not a strawman, because that's a thing you're actually doing. Your motives for why are unclear.
Hope that could help!
Also I didn't even clock earlier that you tried some weird virtue signally accusation of using "Ironic Black Woman Question Marks" because I threw a bunch of them in my post to show how confused I was by your unhinged tirade. That's an A+ troll right there.
I honest to god had no idea that people genuinely disliked Pewdiepie because they thought he was a racist. I guess you learn something new every day.