Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[scorbunnys]

Pixilate does not make Sylveon a good Wish passer. It can hit harder than Clefable can but that's literally it. I'm not sure what the extra damage output is supposed to accomplish because most of the time you will be pivoting Sylveon in, using Wish to heal something up, use Protect if you are healing Sylveon itself or switching into whichever teammate you intend to heal. You may be able to attack at times, but you will only be able to do decent damage by the time the opposing Fairy resists are severely weakened or already KO'd. At that point, Clefable will be able to put in just as much work even with a slightly smaller damage output. Sylveon does about 5% more on resisted hits, 10% more on neutral hits, and about 20% more on super-effective hits than Clefable's Moonblast. I don't think this slight damage difference is worth utilizing over an incredible ability like Magic Guard.

Magic Guard is tremendously better because it allows Clefable to take zero damage from hazards and status, both of which will weaken Sylveon. It also spares you from running Heal Bell can the extra slot can be used for other utility moves such as Stealth Rock. Sylveon will be pressured to heal itself with Wish far more often than Clefable, which is why I would say you're always better off with Clefable for this role. If you want a mon with more special bulk, you can use Chansey, which like Clefable, can also provide extra utility with Stealth Rock or status moves like Thunder wave.

I hope this helps you understand why Clefable (and Chansey) is the better Wish passer. Please avoid posting/discussing about Sylveon unless you can provide better reasons and explanations as to why Sylveon should be ranked in the current metagame. If you want an example on a good unranked nomination, you can check one out here.

Have a nice day and welcome to smogon :)

What problem is there with what I put?

 

[Jordy]

What problem is there with what I put?

The issue is that you did not provide any depth at all. You did not explain how Pixilate is significant enough to warrant using Sylveon over Clefable and you also did not address in what situations Sylveon is actually more useful than Clefable or Chansey. If you read TPP's post, you would've known, since he goes more in-depth about it..

 

[scorbunnys]

The issue is that you did not provide any depth at all. You did not explain how Pixilate is significant enough to warrant using Sylveon over Clefable and you also did not address in what situations Sylveon is actually more useful than Clefable or Chansey. If you read TPP's post, you would've known, since he goes more in-depth about it..

Can I include two UR please? I promise you that I will make a better explanation.

 

[Jordy]

Can I include two UR please? I promise you that I will make a better explanation.

Nobody is stopping you from making nominations for unranked Pokemon, but if people disagree, they will post about it.

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

Protean Greninja A rank to A+
Protean Greninja has gotten way better these last couple of weeks especially on ladder where its destroying and annoying unprepared teams due to its versatility in its sets and coverage. Groundium z Greninja is deadly and destroys most bulky offense that rely on magearna, rotom-w, bulu, tangrowth, ferrothorn, or even toxapex to cover it. Protean greninja can basically set up spikes and hit the whole meta. even M-Scizor and Celesteela get hit by HP Fire which is not good for both because even if celesteela leech seeds you its still very situational because greninja can still lay down spikes on the field and take advantage of the protect from celesteela. also being able to u-turn out is amazing since it can always come back in later to wreck havoc.

252 SpA Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 120-144 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

this is still decent damage on the switch depending on spreads. and also dont forget greninja can still run z fightinium to hit chansey. I think a rise to A+ is justified

Gliscor A rank to A+
during the OLT ladder this thing was incredible and should be considered for A+ rank for sure. Rocks + Toxic is great on gliscor and annoys most teams that dont have a toxic absorber because most toxic absorbers are steel types which gliscor can just EQ and puts teams in a awkward position.
but the main set that puts gliscor over the top and makes him A+ worthy in my opinion is SD Facade. SD gliscor can outspeed you or even just plain out outright out bulk you in order to do what the gliscor user needs. Gliscor can run Jolly SD with speed to outspeed Hoopa-U, Gyarados, Rotom-W, Excadrill not in sand, or even Jolly max speed Landorus-T if it wants to. Gliscor can also run sp.def which makes it take some surprising hits.

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 240-283 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

+1 252+ SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 262-309 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252+ SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor in Sun: 298-352 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor in Psychic Terrain: 286-337 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

on M-Latias Balance and all kinds of balance teams you just cant go wrong with gliscor because its a very good win condition. poison heal along with roost gets back so much health back that it makes gliscor extremely hard to kill if you cant hit it super effectively or have no way to pressure it.
this is why i think it deserves A+

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-961311988 not a perfect replay but it does show that gliscor destroys these kind of balance teams that have barely anyway to pressure gliscor back. m-latias was running surf and not ice beam which is a huge drawback in a sense because it makes the gliscor match up worse and ultimately in the end gliscor won.

Kingdra B rank to B-
why in the world is this in the same rank as manaphy??? it gets walled pretty bad by chansey which is a huge letdown compared to other water types that can break through pex and chansey like m-swampert and manaphy. kingdra can still break through some bulky offense and most of hyper offense teams but other than that its deadweight vs most teams. at least ash-greninja can put up spikes and dark pulse some of its checks..
but yeah please drop this.

Manaphy B rank to A-
everybody who participated on the ladder during OLT cycles should know and understand that manaphy is a big deal and should move up for sure. if not A- then B+ for sure. with the combination of tail glow, rain, and its Z move it breaks most of its counters very well and people even started adding lots of bulk on manaphy for it to live longer and get more kills. not much explaining to do so lets please move this up.

 

[Ahy Wddicted]

Clefable : A- to A
Jesus, can’t believe this monster still not mentioned to rise. nice stealth rocker in balance team, t-wave messed up opponent’s rhythm, especially faired with CM. also LO Clefable rised, there is no perfect switch-in.

Volcarona in -> Thunder Wave -> wincon demolished
Heart Swap Magearna in -> LO Fire Blast 2HKO -> answer demolished
Heatran in -> Thunder Wave and Calm Mind spam -> Magma Storm do nothing
Mawile in -> Thunder Wave or LO Fire Blast -> gg
Gliscor in -> LO Moonblast -> Roost spam and switch out
Toxapex in -> Thunder Wave or LO Thunderbolt -> get a shit-ton of damage or has potential to cost a game because of paralyzed
Chansey in -> well, chansey is safest bet but is there anyone really love using chansey?

At this moment, this moster looks like Heatran before, called best mon of OU, had no true perfect switch in. I don’t think this is as good and versatile as compared to those S rankers, but is more effective than any other A- rankers rn imo. shout out to urban dictionary and google translate.

 

[RaikouLover]

Kingdra B rank to B-
why in the world is this in the same rank as manaphy??? it gets walled pretty bad by chansey which is a huge letdown compared to other water types that can break through pex and chansey like m-swampert and manaphy. kingdra can still break through some bulky offense and most of hyper offense teams but other than that its deadweight vs most teams. at least ash-greninja can put up spikes and dark pulse some of its checks..
but yeah please drop this.

Manaphy B rank to A-
everybody who participated on the ladder during OLT cycles should know and understand that manaphy is a big deal and should move up for sure. if not A- then B+ for sure. with the combination of tail glow, rain, and its Z move it breaks most of its counters very well and people even started adding lots of bulk on manaphy for it to live longer and get more kills. not much explaining to do so lets please move this up.

I'm going to push back on this pretty adamantly regarding both pokemon. Kingdra and Manaphy are both solid 'B' tier pokemon. The two shouldn't be compared directly as they achieve two vastly different things to such a degree they can be used in tandem (my current team uses both). They both belong in B because they require a modest amount of support to function well, but even less support than the pokemon hanging around in 'C' tier.

Kingdra is unique as it is the fastest viable Special Rain abuser in the tier. Kingdra has very favorable matchups vs. offensive teams and opposing rain teams that lack a Kingdra of their own. Offense is one of the most common team types on the ladder and the matchups that become "weaken the lone water resist by 40% and Kingdra sweeps by clicking Surf" are a lot more common than you think. Kingdra struggles against fatter teams and balanced builds with multiple Water-resists but it still provides valuable speed control and a strong Water Shuriken resist.

Manaphy is very good at breaking fat shit but has the opposite problem. Manaphy isn't very useful against offensive teams because they often have multiple pokemon that are faster and can overpower Manaphy via brute force. Manaphy also requires use of a Z-move slot to be effective. Again, it's highly effective at fatter matchups but Manaphy is incredibly underwhelming against those same offensive teams or balance builds packing a faster electric / grass type. The best one can usually get vs. offensive is trading a kill for kill with Hydro Vortex.

Both of these pokemon are useful and effective additions to rain builds but have opportunity costs or require support that more significant than the 'A' tier pokemon do.

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

I'm going to push back on this pretty adamantly regarding both pokemon. Kingdra and Manaphy are both solid 'B' tier pokemon. The two shouldn't be compared directly as they achieve two vastly different things to such a degree they can be used in tandem (my current team uses both). They both belong in B because they require a modest amount of support to function well, but even less support than the pokemon hanging around in 'C' tier.

Kingdra is unique as it is the fastest viable Special Rain abuser in the tier. Kingdra has very favorable matchups vs. offensive teams and opposing rain teams that lack a Kingdra of their own. Offense is one of the most common team types on the ladder and the matchups that become "weaken the lone water resist by 40% and Kingdra sweeps by clicking Surf" are a lot more common than you think. Kingdra struggles against fatter teams and balanced builds with multiple Water-resists but it still provides valuable speed control and a strong Water Shuriken resist.

Manaphy is very good at breaking fat shit but has the opposite problem. Manaphy isn't very useful against offensive teams because they often have multiple pokemon that are faster and can overpower Manaphy via brute force. Manaphy also requires use of a Z-move slot to be effective. Again, it's highly effective at fatter matchups but Manaphy is incredibly underwhelming against those same offensive teams or balance builds packing a faster electric / grass type. The best one can usually get vs. offensive is trading a kill for kill with Hydro Vortex.

Both of these pokemon are useful and effective additions to rain builds but have opportunity costs or require support that more significant than the 'A' tier pokemon do.

you dont seem to understand that getting walled by Toxapex, Chansey, most grass types ,and every water absorber ever is a big deal. most of the time Kingdra will be running specs and requires prediction most of the time. VS offense yes its good but its a match up fish if anything. also Manaphy is better vs offense than you may think. it can get more than one kill due to bulk and its typing. Think of it like suicune but with slightly less bulk, wall breaking power, slightly more speed, and can run coverage moves. vs offense nothing can switch in besides maybe Serperior and m-Gyarados for the time being and Manaphy can always switch out and rest up later if needed. Kingdra on the other hand requires way more support in order to break through mons where as manaphy can still break hyper offense at the cost of just not 6-0'ing it. I would rather use M-Swampert most of the time over Kingdra because Swampert can still provide rocks, sub, toxic, superpower, and even its more rare options like endeavor, stone edge, and even yawn of all things. Kingdra cant do any of this and unless you want to take off its specs it cant really do much anyways vs solid checks and counters. literally every playstyle Manaphy can put a dent in. Stall, Balance, Bulky offense, and Hyper offense you name it manaphy has a chance to shine. Kingdra could run support with hazards and have hp grass to hit pokemon like gastrodon but where will that get you overall? Manaphy can break everything and can still get 1-3 kills vs hyper offense depending on how you play it. VS webs offense i understand why you are saying this but on the other hand kingdra is deadweight vs stall and most balance teams where as manaphy can STILL get a kill vs webs.

 

[RaikouLover]

you dont seem to understand that getting walled by Toxapex, Chansey, most grass types ,and every water absorber ever is a big deal. most of the time Kingdra will be running specs and requires prediction most of the time. VS offense yes its good but its a match up fish if anything. also Manaphy is better vs offense than you may think. it can get more than one kill due to bulk and its typing. Think of it like suicune but with slightly less bulk, wall breaking power, slightly more speed, and can run coverage moves. vs offense nothing can switch in besides maybe Serperior and m-Gyarados for the time being and Manaphy can always switch out and rest up later if needed. Kingdra on the other hand requires way more support in order to break through mons where as manaphy can still break hyper offense at the cost of just not 6-0'ing it. I would rather use M-Swampert most of the time over Kingdra because Swampert can still provide rocks, sub, toxic, superpower, and even its more rare options like endeavor, stone edge, and even yawn of all things. Kingdra cant do any of this and unless you want to take off its specs it cant really do much anyways vs solid checks and counters. literally every playstyle Manaphy can put a dent in. Stall, Balance, Bulky offense, and Hyper offense you name it manaphy has a chance to shine. Kingdra could run support with hazards and have hp grass to hit pokemon like gastrodon but where will that get you overall? Manaphy can break everything and can still get 1-3 kills vs hyper offense depending on how you play it. VS webs offense i understand why you are saying this but on the other hand kingdra is deadweight vs stall and most balance teams where as manaphy can STILL get a kill vs webs.

Your response is super biased honestly. Both mons in the builds we are discussing are basically useless without rain support and you are really overhyping Manaphy's effectiveness vs. offensive builds and the mons that force it out often do switch in if you mispredict and get greedy with TG. Kingdra is not a breaker just as Manaphy is not a sweeper so it's pointless to keep referring to both as such. They have different strengths, weaknesses, and counterplay.

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

Your response is super biased honestly. Both mons in the builds we are discussing are basically useless without rain support and you are really overhyping Manaphy's effectiveness vs. offensive builds and the mons that force it out (think Tapu Koko & Serperior) actually can switch in. Kingdra is not a breaker just as Manaphy is not a sweeper so it's pointless to keep referring to both as such. They have different strengths, weaknesses, and counterplay.

first of all koko and serperior can not switch in. second im not overhyping its effectivness whatsoever. I played all four cycles during the OLT Ladder and was 1900-2000s every cycle and i know that manaphy does way more than kingdra and you just ignored eveything i said so im not sure what to say to you. its true they have their strengths and weaknesses but their counterplay is clear. kingdra cant break... they are both special attackers so lets not act like one is a physical attacker and the other is a special attacker. manaphy offers way more to the table and can do good vs every playstyle and kingdra can not.

 

[Heika]

Your response is super biased honestly. Both mons in the builds we are discussing are basically useless without rain support and you are really overhyping Manaphy's effectiveness vs. offensive builds and the mons that force it out often do switch in if you mispredict and get greedy with TG. Kingdra is not a breaker just as Manaphy is not a sweeper so it's pointless to keep referring to both as such. They have different strengths, weaknesses, and counterplay.

I think you’ve more or less understood what both of those mon have to offers but that you are missing on what Rain’s common 5 mons core matchs up against respectively bulkier teams and offensive teams are. I’m only gonna explain in the case of peli/pert/torn/ferro/water type (that don’t need rain to work) teams since those teams not over relying on rain being up is what is making rain a consistent playstyle and not just a cheese as it used to be earlier in the generation. So basically this team already match up really well against offenses, having a harder time against bulkier ones (I’d even say it relies on Pert to break stall, which is not really consistent at it). Then for your sixth mon you got the choice between a mon that helps against offense, which you are already doing well against, except rain mirror ig, and a mon that helps against what you are struggling against.

TL;DR: kingdra emphasis on rain’s strengh which ain’t that much needed, while Manaphy covers what would otherwise be bad match ups.
IMO

 

[RaikouLover]

I think you’ve more or less understood what both of those mon have to offers but that you are missing on what Rain’s common 5 mons core matchs up against respectively bulkier teams and offensive teams are. I’m only gonna explain in the case of peli/pert/torn/ferro/water type (that don’t need rain to work) teams since those teams not over relying on rain being up is what is making rain a consistent playstyle and not just a cheese as it used to be earlier in the generation. So basically this team already match up really well against offenses, having a harder time against bulkier ones (I’d even say it relies on Pert to break stall, which is not really consistent at it). Then for your sixth mon you got the choice between a mon that helps against offense, which you are already doing well against, except rain mirror ig, and a mon that helps against what you are struggling against.

TL;DR: kingdra emphasis on rain’s strengh which ain’t that much needed, while Manaphy covers what would otherwise be bad match ups.
IMO

Like the other poster you fundamentally misunderstand the point behind the statement. Manaphy and Kingdra don’t occupy the same space on any rain build and those that suggest as such are deliberately advancing a strawman argument. Frankly there is a off putting mindset among some in this community that every team archetype has to come from the sample builds and in the case of rain that means exactly the template you highlighted. That just hampers any thoughtful discussion about can be viable because everyone just recycles the same teams.

 

[Jordy]

This discussion really isn't going anywhere. I'd like for everyone to move on, as it's just completely derailing the thread at this point.

 

[NG Spencer]

My two cents on some mons I feel are currently underranked

Agree with clefable to A rank, I used this thing a lot during olt ladder specifically a spread that avoids the 2hko from alakazams psychic at full running rocks and cm. The amount of heatrans i have seen that forgo taunt in favor of other good options such as protect, toxic, rocks is really high and ive found myself throwing that very clef into spdef trans over my gastrodon to absorb the toxic as they cannot actually beat you 1v1. its one of the best switchins to rotom wash taking little from its attacks and not caring about burn whatsoever. as always it still acts as a sturdy dark resist vs ash greninjas dark pulse if you can pivot into regen water resist first like pex or tangrowth then back to clef if they go for dark move to avoid flinch chance and gain momentum.

The life orb sets were utilized more with OLT, seen on that latias/gren/lando/clef/ferro/tran team for example and allow clefable to heavily dent if not ohko things such as mega mawile or magearna that would otherwise abuse it with fire blast or smack toxapex with thunderbolt while still doing decent damage to heatran.

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 289-341 (109.4 - 129.1%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Magearna: 185-218 (50.9 - 60%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%)

As for manaphy that thing should definitely be higher than it is, A- is perfect in my eyes but just higher than it is now is ideal. throughout the entirety of SM teams along the lines of tangrowth + toxapex + dark resist + fast mon as a general example were considered more than enough to handle rain builds but these teams find themselves crushed by manaphy especially with more running ice beam to nail mega latias and tangrowth without wasting the z move so you can destroy toxapex instead with +3 in the rain. the argument that it fares poorly vs offense is kind of misguided in my eyes seeing as you already have swampert and greninja to plow through and its solid bulk allows it to take a hit if truly needed.

+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Toxapex in Rain: 297-351 (97.6 - 115.4%)
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 316-372 (86.8 - 102.1%)
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 324-382 (80.3 - 94.7%)

 

[Colonel M]

I'm just going to make an executive decision and blacklist Sylveon. Don't think I need a lot of reason to explain this, but not only do these posts have little real value put into them, they also have proven to derail the thread because others have to constantly explain the issues with it.

You may direct all questions to me on this through PMs or wall posts - not in the thread.

Also just so the post has more than moderating input, I definitely agree with Kingdra drop (mon hasn't really been that great in rain teams for a while and it's kind of niche / has a lot of glaring issues but still good against more offensive geared teams) and agree with Manaphy rise (my only small objection to A- is more based on how Manaphy has always been this weird OLT mon that is very good for a cycle and then just vanishes from the Earth, but looking through some OLT matches it can definitely do some massive damage and be a real headache in rain. Wouldn't be mad if it went to A- either).

 

[Cheff Gordo]

Nominating: Serperior B+ -> A-


The premier Serperior set is the SubGlare with Leftovers, having the ability to hit hard with Leaf Storm thanks to Contrary which makes it stronger every turn the move connects, being able to cause a lot of damage through teams or even sweep if it's not facing any reliable counters (for example: Heatran, Celesteela, Assault Vest Magearna) or if those counters are weakened. Scarfers also can be used to revenge kill Serperior but if Serp is behind a Substitute, it creeps the Choice Scarf users with Glare, making Serp a hard Pokemon to switch into.

SubGlare Set

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power Fire
- Substitute
- Glare

Serperior can also run Choice Scarf itself, being able to late game sweep with it's awesome Speed stat and with its Contrary ability. This set is great to revenge kill huge threats in the meta and even other choices scarfers (ex: Greninja and Greninja Ash, Rotom-W, Scarf Kartana and even Timid Kartana after a Speed Boost) thanks to it's Base 113 Speed.

Scarf Set

Serperior @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Glare
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Defog

Scarf Serp Calcs

252 SpA Contrary Serperior Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 241-284 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 440-520 (169.2 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Contrary Serperior Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 533-628 (167 - 196.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

In addition, Serperior can be used to switch into Defog (which will raise it's evasion thanks to Contrary) used by Rotom-W and/or Tapu Fini.

 

[GMars]

Nominating: Serperior B+ -> A-


The premier Serperior set is the SubGlare with Leftovers, having the ability to hit hard with Leaf Storm thanks to Contrary which makes it stronger every turn the move connects, being able to cause a lot of damage through teams or even sweep if it's not facing any reliable counters (for example: Heatran, Celesteela, Assault Vest Magearna) or if those counters are weakened. Scarfers also can be used to revenge kill Serperior but if Serp is behind a Substitute, it creeps the Choice Scarf users with Glare, making Serp a hard Pokemon to switch into.

SubGlare Set

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power Fire
- Substitute
- Glare

Serperior can also run Choice Scarf itself, being able to late game sweep with it's awesome Speed stat and with its Contrary ability. This set is great to revenge kill huge threats in the meta and even other choices scarfers (ex: Greninja and Greninja Ash, Rotom-W, Scarf Kartana and even Timid Kartana after a Speed Boost) thanks to it's Base 113 Speed.

Scarf Set

Serperior @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Glare
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Defog

Scarf Serp Calcs

252 SpA Contrary Serperior Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 241-284 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 440-520 (169.2 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Contrary Serperior Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 533-628 (167 - 196.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

In addition, Serperior can be used to switch into Defog (which will raise it's evasion thanks to Contrary) used by Rotom-W and/or Tapu Fini.

The majority of people know what Serperior does. When making a nomination, you need to focus on why Serperior got better in the current meta rather than explaining how its sets function.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

C -> C+/Maybe Higher?

Small change I know but recently we've seen the rise of these T-Spikes balances that have gone on to dominate not only OLT, but also the ladder and Nidoking's ability to absorb T-Spikes while being a good Balance Breaker on his own is incredibly useful right now for offensive teams. Because of this, Nidoking relieves a ton of pressure off the teams defogger against these teams so you want be awkwardly switching in Tornadus-T to defog for your Tapu Fini.

Obviously he still has his issues with his frailty and a mediocre typing that makes him weak to Psychics and Waters. But I believe his niche is really strong right now.

 

[We Three Kings]

After watching OLT and laddering (not for OLT) during the first two cycles, and now a fair share in the aftermath of the tournament, I think some of the ranks could change a bit.


S Rank:

I think Toxapex isn't on the level of the other four, since it's so targeted and vulnerable to good lures. Even if its the niche gatekeeper, the top 10 mons in OU all have decent odds to beat it 1v1, and those scenarios will happen once a game at worst. If you're greedy and don't run Haze you can lose to stuff it's designed to beat, and lacking Toxic adds 50 turns to most games. However, Toxic Spikes are so unbelievably good that a lot of the time it hardly matters. I don't think it's far behind S, but I think it's closer to some of the stuff in A+, especially Kartana, and I think if Toxapex is S rank, Kartana should be too.


A+ Rank:

Before OLT I'd say that Kartana and Tornadus-T are both S, now I'm not so sure. Tornadus feels quite easy to punish, especially those without U-turn, and besides being the best Turn 1 Kart buffer (assuming no SR), it loses to all of the other S ranks. Kartana is still ridiculous, but a tad worse than before. Probably deserves S anyway, and I'm still echoing what I said in the Toxapex section, but I didn't see a lot of it in OLT which I thought was kinda interesting.

Mawile is the best mega and Alakazam is a step down, so I think the latter should be A. Likely has to hit 2 Focus Blasts to win a game, has moveslot issues, dies to Spikes, and fails to beat a lot of the stuff it's supposed to beat. In a lot of matchups it needs to heal often (especially vs Spikes), and Recover is easy to take advantage of with a Scarf Lando for example. One of the more proactive Toxapex switches though, and that role is extremely important.

At some point Ferrothorn will make the leap to S rank. Not sure if this is the time, but it stacks layers so reliably and punishes pretty much all of the non-stall hazard control (Toxic is good). Feels more and more like BW Ferro at this point, and that thing speaks for itself.


A Rank:

Most of the stuff in A is correctly placed, so not a lot to touch on here. Protean Greninja could have a case for A+, but that's not something I feel strongly about. I think non-CM Mega Latias is terrible though. The stuff it's supposed to check (SD Gliscor, offensive Heatran, offensive grounds, Kartana) will all have team support that easily handles it, or they could have lures themselves. Calm Mind is a whole lot better, but BoltBeam still loses to Toxic, and SubCM means you lose nearly all defensive utility. Still, A- might be a bit harsh.


A- Rank:

Clefable Spikes is an archetype that feels really hard to punish these days, and it has a plethora of other good sets, so this thing is very obviously A at worst in my eyes. It's better than A "staples" like Tapu Koko, Mega Latias, and Tapu Bulu to begin with, so A+ is probably not unreasonable. Fat Clef is really good at keeping the metagame honest by forcing certain coverage or high power moves (SubPunch Mawile loses to burnt Clef, Surf AshGren loses to SpDef Clef, Tauntless Heatran loses to CM or Thunder Wave, etc.), and LO is one of the better balance punishers.

Mega Lopunny is also kinda ridiculous with hazards, and the speed tier is amazing. Doesn't get punished as hard as Medicham by random Protects, and solos a lot of offense. One of the better megas for sure, and should be A.


B+ Rank:

B+ looks awkward because to me it's a combination of "mediocre" Pokemon that I think are underrated, and "good" Pokemon that I think are overrated. However I think Serperior is the clear best mon here, and should move to A-. Serp is probably the best mon in the game at breaking a losing cycle vs balance due to Glare and Serps ability to snowball really hard. Usually needs Knock Off support from Scizor, Torn or Clef, and SubSeed is worse than Glare + filler, but the speed tier is golden and the typing is nice for swapping into Rotom, a mon which is awkward for the teams Serperior fits on the best.

I'm also a big fan of Diancie, as it's a super rewarding mega to play aggressively, and for some reason people keep letting Landorus die turn 1 to HP Ice. SR / Moonblast / Earth Power / HP Ice is the best set, but you can use a lot of different moves if you can fit rocks elsewhere. Maybe the best earlygame switch to Heatran (assuming you've already mega'd) together with Garchomp. I'd vouch for A-.


B Rank:

Amoonguss should at worst be one subrank behind Tangrowth in my opinion. Sleep is great and Amoonguss can at least threaten Clefable somewhat with Sludge Bomb if it has taken another status. Stomping Tantrum is unexpected and hilarious when you pull it of (which you will). AV is really nice on regen cores as a Gren check, while you can still "bluff" a berry. You lose the threat of Spore though, and you're worthless against anything slowpaced otherwise. Very status prone as well, and will probably get Knocked by a Kartana at some point if you face it. Still, this thing's surely better than garbage like Suicune, Mew and Kingdra that are in the same rank.

Hawlucha is the one reason I still think HO is playable. You'll run into quite a few stuff that dicks you, but at worst you chip them for 70% and at best you sweep with a crit. Has a free moveslot which will be useless most of the time, but can come in very clutch (Sub vs Z-Lando, Roost vs Toxic Lando, Taunt vs Toxapex, etc.). Definitely a fearsome sweeper still.

Manaphy is the third standout, and has proven itself as the best 6th slot on rain. Very predictable moveset, but the speed and bulk levels can wary, which could get really awkward sometimes. Not terrible outside of rain either, unlike Kingdra and the other options. Certainly B-.

Kingdra should absolutely drop some ranks, outclassed by Manaphy in every matchup except for rain mirrors. Both Gyaras could potentially rise, using Z Gyarados on a mega-less team has amazing surprise factor and even then, they're both decent mons anyway with clear niches. A lot of the mons in B are decent Pokemon that unfortunately only fit on very few teams.


B- Rank:

Charizard-Y is definitely unfairly ranked. Despite being useless against maybe the most important Pokemon to beat in SM OU, its matchup against everything else can be so good with proper removal that it warrants B, if not B+ rank. I don't think it's an entirely worse Volcarona, as having Roost while keeping the coverage is great.

Mega Slowbro and Kommo-o are two mons that showed up a lot during OLT, and I think they both deserve to be ranked better. Slowbro is one of few mons that can reliably check physical grounds, while Kommo-o has 3-4 sets that could all be really annoying and dangerous.


Anything below:

Most of the stuff here is pretty bad, but some stuff has traits that are actually worth using. Blacephalon can be horrifying in the correct matchup, Keldeo has a unique defensive typing with several Z move options, Skarmory is one of the better removals on stall, but is also an unexplored Spiker on balance. Pinsir is threatening to a lot of teams if people use the correct set (Substitute), Volcanion's typing, coverage and ability is unique and quite awkward for a lot of SM bulky offense to deal with, and Nidoking has terrifying coverage while absorbing T-Spikes and coming in on Clefable all day.

Zydog should probably be unranked, I don't see a niche for it whatsoever. Mega Manectric is practically a worse Tapu Koko, a mon that's bad enough already. Salamence is better than Dragonite and should at least be ranked. Trick Room hasn't been good for about two years, so Cresselia, Uxie, etc. could go as well.



That's all for now. Ban Mega Mawile.

 

[blunder]

kommo o def gotta be b+ or a- but ill settle for b+.... DD + kommoz under screens is insane and its best set (sr, jab, cc, scales + z) is one of the best rockers ive found, natural good bulk lets it put up rocks on most defensive mons like zapdos tran tangrowth etc and typing naturally resists ash gren which is cool too. z alone can dismantle rain teams since the counter is pert and torn (who can die after sr, but i think u need spatk investment) honestly the z move + sr set is just too good at being support and also being able to threaten sweeps. by itself it trashes fwg heatran torn gren tang and is generally of keeping up sr or going on a minisweep in almost every game. even if you run into max spdef pex or something like that you can at least keep putting up sr as your opponent has to always keep the threat of Z in their head. this thing is way superior to stuff in its tier like alomomola and gallade and definitely on par with if not better than some of the stuff in B rank. ive used this thing like 1000x so u can check my replays if u wanna see but all i gotta say is its WAYYYY better than ass garchomp

maybe blacephalon / glalie post coming soon



B-

glalie is amazing bc as we all know offensive ice coverage paired with ground is broken as hell and can defeat everything. 100 base speed and 120 atk is all this thing needs bc its moves are so strong on their own. i use explosion, return, eq, spikes and have never used anything else but im sure you can try like ice shard or something but i dont see how you can drop any of the other moves, boom lets u ohko ttar ferrothorn celesteela mew, basically any neutral resist is absolutely going to die and in general the only thing that can handle glalie repeatedly is scizor. if it wasnt for spikes id never use this thing but bc of spikes you can at least punish their obvious switches to scizor / fini / whatever the case is and then switch out for your own momentum. i cannot in good conscience nominate this for anything above B because it still has its own problems and you need to play this thing pretty offensive to get any true milage. anyways this thing would be A+ if it was part ground but unfortunately it's not... still on par with mamoswine to me but probably not as good as kyurem-n. 80/80/80 defenses are kind of ass but it can surprise you and live lele psychic and regular specs gren (most of the time for both of these...) either way i think this mon only excels on HO and very offensively geared teams, definitely dont put this on balance. In most games with glalie you can usually get at least one spike and at least one kill thanks to boom and that's pretty damn good positioning no matter what you are playing against. heres my team with it so people can try it out and make their own opinions https://pokepast.es/1f47043374845f16

mod edit: Rather than double posting, you can just edit your post.

 

[toninho100%]

UR->C

Before you say Breloom is just worse Kartana, let me explain, I'm considering the SubPunch Loom set as its best set, not the LO or Sash ones, those are pretty bad in my opinion.

As the name suggests, SubPunch Loom's main gimmick is just spamming Focus Punch: you use Substitute, click Focus Punch, and deal a ton of damage to one of the opponent's mons, and even if they have something like Clefairy, Zapdos, bulky psychics or Defensive Landorus, those are still taking around 30% damage, and if they switch on your attack, they will take a total of ~60%, Zapdos isn't even that good of a check, since Breloom could run Stone Edge as coverage, and switching into FPunch isn't really punishing Breloom that much, Toxic Heal can just recover the chip caused from Zapdos' possible Rocky Helmet and Toxic Orb makes it so that Loom can't get paralized, Zap can't roost on it too, because otherwise it'll lose its flying type and take a lot of damage.

Paired with a Pursuit Trapper, Breloom doesn't have to to worry about Psychic types, and can be a major annoyance for the oponnent, even more than it already is, talking about annoyance, Loom can put people to sleep with Spore, and that can really come in clutch, like showed in this replay of mine:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-960943179 (i did win bc of a heat wave miss, but I still think this game shows some of the things Loom is capable of doing best)
Breloom also goes really well with cleaners that appreciate chip on the opponent's team, slow U-Turners/Volt Switchers also help Loom to come in and just deal damage.
Breloom has ok bulk, and can deal ok against Ash-Greninja if it has Mach Punch or a lot of defensive investment(it shouldn't be considered a threat to AshGren tho), on the more defensive side it can also serve as a status sponge.

What separates Breloom from other fighting types in the tier is:

• Defensive utility
• Spore
• Not wasting a mega slot
• The whole Focus Punch gimmick(other fighting types can do it too, but they usually waste a mega slot and/or are way less defensive than Breloom, without Pheal+Sub)
• Toxic Orb+Pheal combo

Breloom has some flaws tho, being a huge momentum sink and having decent, but underwhelming bulk is one of the most notable problems with it.

Overall, I feel like Breloom is a pretty decent mon, and it has put a lot of work in my battles, i'm not really high on the ladder, nor play any tournaments, so I don't battle against very experienced players, because of that saying it worked for me is not much lol, still i think it should be on the VR, in my opinion it should be at least on C.

The set I use https://pokepast.es/1618306037abc830
As commented above, you can run Edge too if you want to threaten Zapdos, I personally prefer Mach Punch because it beats Ash-Gren and because priority is just incredible.

 

[Srn]

I can echo pmuch everything here, especially unrank zydog, raise mega slowbro. I've tried some mega bro sets and my favorite tends to be something like this

3 attacks

Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 116 Def / 44 SpA / 56 SpD / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Slack Off

EVs lets u creep & 2hko no speed pex, spdef lets u avoid 2hko from uninvested hurricane of helmet torn, rest in hp&def. I miss scald a lot less than I thought, as ice beam hits lando & garchomp, flamethrower hits exca, psychic does as much as scald to zard-y and zard-x, victini really isn't breaking you anyway, you lose to volcarona & blacephalon anyway, and mega pert isn't breaking you so missing the burn chance is ok there too. It only really makes a difference vs heatran, which can be checked fairly easily, and in return the ice/fire/psychic coverage can do stuff like 2hko rotom-w with 2 rounds of SR, nail ferro&kartana, 2hko mmaw, and psychic lets u cleanly ohko hawlucha, if its psychic seed ur still getting the same terrain boost to your own psychic and killing regardless.

All in all a cool set, should rise.

However I can't echo this

SubPunch Mawile loses to burnt Clef

160+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Am I missing something here? Are we assuming mmaw has been paralyzed as it switches in or smth? In which case I can kind of understand, but you're still gonna burn through most of your softboiled and moonblast isnt killing quickly.

 

[Jordy]

160+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Am I missing something here? Are we assuming mmaw has been paralyzed as it switches in or smth?

Substitute Mega Mawile tends to forego Play Rough for superior coverage with Ice Punch, forcing it to fish for a freeze against Clefable in order to beat it.

 

[Éric]

B -> B+
This little monster has been rising in usage during OLT and Snake. It previously rose to B due to its Z Celebrate set, but lately it finds itself usually using choiced sets, since with them it’s capable of doing massive damage to defensive teams thanks to Choice Band V-Create or to revenge kill fast stuff while checking some Pokémon like Alakazam with the Choice Scarf set.
These days, teams are mostly either Mega Latias semistall or Mega Mawile bulky offense, and Victini with the right set eats them. Against fat teams in general, the banded set does fairly well, since V-Create is so powerful, and you can freely U-Turn and get another threat in. Or you can even go with the scarf max HP set and get a free kill with Final Gambit, and hopefully making the path easier for one of your team’s breaker to win. (For example, killing Latias can make your Kartana be in a great spot since it lost its best answer).
Versus more offensive teams, Scarf Victini can be a very dangerous Pokémon, since it can revenge kill everything, give momentum with U-Turn and even kill walls like Ferro, Helmet Tornadus, Tangrowth, Bulu, Celesteela, etc. It can also pivot in things like defensive steel types, Alakazam or bulky grasses and threaten them.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-454537 In this tournament replay we can see the utility of Choice Scarf Victini: it pivots in Lopunny and gets rid of Tornadus in early game, letting rocks stay the whole game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-454881 In this game from the Snake Draft, Victini gets a kill turn 1 on Tornadus with Final Gambit, allowing Kommo-o and Gliscor to wall everyone, giving him the win.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-454462 In this last replay, an unorthodox Power-up Punch Victini is able to kill Heatran and Tapu Bulu, letting Mega Scizor to win the game.

TL;DR: Victini benefits from the increased usage of Latias balanced with Clefable or Gliscor, and also benefits from the ever present bulky offenses with bulky grasses and Mega Alakazam/Mawile, making its tournament usage higher, so a rise to B+ isn’t a crazy idea. Of course it shouldn’t be higher, since it’s still weak to rocks and passive damage in general, but I feel like B+ is fine.

 

[Gadget]

Lets talk about the Mega elephant in the OU room, but only by technicality, Mega Garchomp.

Mega Garchomp is an interesting mon, its one of the few megas seen as a worse version of their non mega, and as such it sees very little usage, especially when there are many other megas that can hit much harder physically, while still being faster (namely mega medicham). However I do not think that Mega Chomp's strong point is the raw power, but instead it is the breaking potential it has.

wall of text

Before I go about saying Mega Garchomp is good, I am first going to ask a question. What makes a mon good? Now there are a lot of answers that might come to mind, such as raw power, or sheer bulk, but I think we should take a closer look at some of the best mons in the meta right now.

What makes a mon good?

The head honcho of OU himself: Landorus T

now what does Landorus do that makes him the most used mon in the meta by a wide margin. its not one singular set, or the sheer power, but instead its just how much Landorus can do. It can be scarf for a fast pivot and late game cleaner, it can be fly z for a nuke to get past some mons that wall scarf landorus, it can be a support landorus with rocks or defog to ease the pressure off of other mons, it can be defensive landorus, custap, sash, or ever some wierder options like rockinium z. and double dance. All of these sets have something in common, they are not the best set for that exact role. "Why run defensive lando when gliscor exists?" a new player might ask? my personal answer has been not for the bulk, but for the other 2 moves you have remaining after sr/defog, and eq. gliscor plays very linearly, and the second it comes in, you know exactly whats going to happen. its gonna either get up or get rid of rocks, toxic you, and then roost/eq until its forced out. Lando has a bit more mystery around it. You cant go around bringing in a tangrowth on to lando early on if you dont know it isnt z fly, and you cant risk clicking hydro pump with your greninja if you dont know for sure it isnt scarf u turn. It can do so much, that it doesnt need raw power to get to S rank, instead it is S rank because how you can tailor it exactly for your team, making it great glue for a team
The Perfect Storm: Heatran

Heatran is a similar story to Landorus, in that the strongest part of tran is not its sheer power, but its the number of things it can do. With just one set, A Heatran can trap a mon, get rocks up, and get past the normal checks and counters it runs into such as landorus. This mon is the definition of glue, as it provides so much support that it can be slotted onto almost every team in OU. While Heatran is arguably the worst of the S rank mons, it still has several sets and is still calced for as a benchmark for some mons, for me personaly I always be sure my tankchomp can outspeed timid heatran so I dont get blown back by HP ice, or get needlessly toxiced. All of this lets heatran be so versitile that it deserves its spot at S


If you guess wrong you loose: Magerna

I hate playing against this mon. It has 3 main sets, but in those sets there is so much variation that it is impossible to truly know what you are facing until it is far too late. First Assault vest. Assault vest it the most splashable set because of how much it does. it eats hits from weaker mons, it acts as a pivot, it can sweep if the team is chipped, it has coverage for whatever your team is weak to, this set does it all. While normally this wouldn't be a problem for most teams, it becomes a problem when you look at its next set, shift gear. Shift gear, if not played around, sweeps teams after one boost. You need to play around shift gear, as even a little chip to your check could allow Magerna to win just by using its z move and then sweeping. This creates a guessing game where you need to play around shift gear until you know its assault vest, because if you play like its assault vest and a shift gear comes up late game, you might as well just start searching for another battle. This wouldnt be so bad, if it weren't for the coverage it possesses. Tbolt, ice beam, focus blast, fleur cannon, energy ball or shadow ball even. all of these moves can blow back a potential check on the switch, with there being no true checks for magerna, only soft checks, save some weird spdef mega camerupt. This creates another mon that can be tailor made to a team, making more great glue.

The more Linear Mons:

Ash Gren and Pex
Im not going to spend as much time, as I believe these mons are the exception and not the rule. they both have one set that just does what it does so well that they deserve S rank, with ash gren an effective 60 bp priority stab move coming off of 600 spa if your specs is just too hard to dance around, and the other stab being dark pulse only helps with its breaking, but It really needs support to get in and it get past common checks like bulu or tangrowth. Pex on the other hand is a very linear mon. step 1, get in, step 2 get up tspikes, step 3 wall most of the meta. while the argument could be made that tspikes/spikes are support for their team, Pex and gren differ from every other mon on the viability rankings in that they are not anywhere near as splash-able, and only fit on certain builds.

Okay, so now that we figured out what the best mons in the meta do to make themselves good, what is something most of them have in common? versatility. They all can play several roles on a team. now lets look at mega chomp again. what does it do? it can set up rocks, and then be an extremely hard to switch into mon, with draco, eq, and fire blast. Looking at common walls.

Wallbreaking Calcs

Ferrothorn :

252+ SpA Garchomp-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 332-392 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery. This thing is not switching in, ever. if it does then its going to be outsped and bopped. furthering this, if you save your mega until a ferro switches in thinking your rockium z and cant touch it, you can get rid of a very common and hard to deal with wall for your team.

The big Pex:

4 Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 236-282 (77.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery Even off 2 min rolls and a recover spam, pex is 3hkoed off of an eq, and if it comes in with rocks up there is about a 37% chance pex just drops.

Chancy:

4 Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 228-268 (32.4 - 38.1%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO. Okay Ill give you this, chancy needs its eviolite gone, but otherwise walls mega Garchomp, however assuming you knock it off somehow 4 Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 340-402 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO. Chancy cannot safely switch in, as it is slower and will get 2hkoed.

Gliscor:

252+ SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor: 382-451 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- possible KO in 2 turns after Poison Heal. what that means is, if gliscor switches into a draco, it is dead unless it, by some magic, is faster and gets off a roost. this is another common wall that cannot switch in.

Reuniclus:

252+ SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 380-448 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. This is the 4th common stall/balance pick that simply cannot switch into mega chomp without risking dropping, especially if it is chipped at all by either rocks or a previous attack depending on ability.

So now we know that Mega garchomp is good at breaking common stall picks, we have to ask ourselves, is this worth the mega spot over other hard hitters? mega medicham also gives balance/stall a hard time, so why chomp? Mega chomp gives you a few things, one, if you have a tyranitar, you dont even look like chomp could be the mega, with ttar being the more obvious choice, and 2, mega chomp's ability, sand force. this gives Mega chomp a Life orb boost on its EQs and if you are running stone edge, its stone edges. This only amplifies the hard to switch into nature of this mon, with next to nothing being able to switch into it throughout the game. So with all this hyping it up, there has to be some downside, right?

Pitfalls and solutions

Okay the obvious one is the speed. you loose out on a huge speed bench mark, and suddenly that Mega Medicham that you normally quake beats you, along with a mew ice beam, and a victini V-create. You also use up your mega, so mons that would love to be partners with this, like mega mawile, cannot be. The power gained on the physical side is just not worth it, as Life orb hits harder if sand is not up. Okay, so we know its downsides, now what is it good at? well it, along with hoopa-u and mega diance, is one of the few viable mixed attackers, and that is something that is far more relevant then most people give it credit for. Skarm cant beat it 1v1 and chancy cant if the item is knocked off.

So Now we know what the problems this mon faces is, how can we patch that up?. the biggest one is good speed control. Serp makes a great partner as serp appreciates walls being weakened by mega chomp, and mega chomp appreciates the glare support provided. Sticky web setters such as araquanid also help slow down the enemy team for mega chomp to start punching holes. You could also make the argument for trick room, but the lowest it gets is 170 speed which is not slow enough.

TL;DR

Mega Chomp

B-> B+ due to its hard to switch into nature, and its ability to break most balance/stall teams in half.