Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Leo]

Alright, I think you've made your point clear, it's time to move on from the Salazzle discussion. There's other noms that could use more discussion like Gliscor to A+ and Victini to B+ so please drop the topic

 

[JTD783]

What's the justification for Gliscor moving to A+? I don't think it's anywhere as influential as the likes of Kartana and Torn; it's closer to A- dwellers such as Mega Latias, Reuniclus, and Zapdos in my eyes. That's obviously subjective, but my point here is that moving Gliscor up a subrank seems to be overrating its influence on the meta.

I don't know what has changed for Gliscor recently. It's definitely a solid pick for balance teams and certain stall builds but it does not have the "splashable" nature of the higher-ranked mons, so that hasn't changed. I don't know of any recent meta trends it takes advantage of. If anyone can explain why Gliscor should rise I'm interested in hearing about it.

Victini is definitely slept on, both as a breaker with Band and as speed control with Scarf. We all know what band does so I won't get into it. Scarf is very nice right now since many people think Lando-T is a good scarfer (lol) and Vic outruns and smashes it, since V-Create is tough to switch into in general. Like asterat said about Blacephalon, a lot of teams just don't have a good answer to it these days. The last reason I think it's worth a rise is the solid hazard control in the current meta. Gliscor, Torn, and Rotom have risen a lot in usage and they do a good job of mitigating Vic's rocks weakness. Also Rotom+Victini+Mega Tar is fucking terrifying to face.

Nothing's really changed for Z Celebrate as far as I know.

 

[Finchinator]

What's the justification for Gliscor moving to A+?

This is the usage stats from week 1 of Smogon Snake Draft. Gliscor is being used religiously right now in tournaments and even on the higher portion of the ladder you are seeing more and more of it. Sure, there are a number of surefire checks and counters to it that you can find regularly, but that does not take away from the fact that the SDef Swords Dance set is ridiculously good. Nothing else can provide the combination of excellent defensive checking prowess with win condition capabilities -- nothing is even close. Mega Latias and Reuniclus may be in a league below it, but the former being vulnerable to status and the latter being a bit too support needy/slow leaves room for so much to be desired.

Gliscor is not a broken threat and it is not an unbreakable defensive force, but the Swords Dance set is a great pick in the current metagame. It lets you check Heatran, take advantage of Toxapex, punish passivity, and absorb potential status. In a metagame where the status quo has been balance for a vast majority of its existence, Gliscor has so many traits that are practical in being the anti-metagame within the metagame itself. Gliscor is a great fit on so many balance builds, as we have already seen with the Stealth Rock variant, but with Swords Dance it provides all of the great defensive and utility merit alongside sweeping potential. It also frees up room for other rockers, which enables so many different viable structures. While it may not be a top 3 Pokemon and the usage stats will settle down over time, Gliscor is a metagame defining presence currently and arguing for it to move up to A+ is very valid, in my opinion.

 

[LordHelix]

Alright so as I said before, Salazzle is a mon where i can barely see some viability in, in regards to the subtoxic set due to being able to toxic anything and its speed tier, but I have so many disagreements with this above post, I feel the need to quickly break it down and point out the flaws in that argument.

You talk about Salazzle and how it has a higher speed tier then Blace, but you also disregard the fact that Blace can run both a Speed Beast Boost set and Choice Scarf with both being viable. Specs Salazzle can play a hit and run game against Mega Latias yes but it is nowhere near that simple. Poison is a trash offensive typing, resisted by types such as poison, steel, ground and ghost and it is going to be rare to find a team lacking those types when blocking voltturn, absorbing tspikes, and the raw power provided by Megas such as Mawile and Sableye are great for teams. Compare that with Ghost where only dark can resist it with normal being immune. Now the only dark types that want to switch in are Ttar and the rare alomuk, and the only relevant normal is Chansey which can't touch it which makes ghost a much more spammable stab. Also, Salazzle is weak to rocks so it can't even play a hit and run game against Mega Latias for long.

In regards to checking SG Magearna, Choice Scarf Blace does outspeed, and Fireblast OHKOs from full and CM Blace doesn't even die to Twinkle Tackle after rocks.

252 SpA Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 356-420 (118.2 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 194-228 (63.6 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also your part about Kommo-o is irrelevant and laughable. Not to be rude but, I don't think people care that Kommo-o isn't gonna be 2HKO'd a grand 2% of the time, because the chances of 2% happening and it not being chipped by literally anything beforehand such as SR is extremely small. Not to mention Kommo-o does not want to be tricked by Blace when it goes for a move. (More on Trick Later)

You then claim that Blace can't 2HKO Mega TTar wheras Salazzle can, but then you compare HP ground to HP fighting? Like yes, a move that is x4 effective does a lot more damage then a move that is x2 effective, thats obvious. If Blace really wanted to 2HKO Mega TTar, then it could run HP fighting as well which does more than Salazzle due to having a much higher Special Attack. Blace simply chooses to hit other target with Ground and Grass such as Heatran and Swampert instead of Ttar, it doesn't mean it can't run HP fighting if the team needs it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 252-300 (65.7 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Next up is the long list of calcs that in my honest opinion, did not need to be there, or at least that amount of them. Pokemon such as Zapdos really didn't need to be in there, since its physically defensive and people won't switch in or leave in Zapdos on a Salazzle. You make a false claim that anything that isn't OHKO'd is poisoned which considering your moveset of NP + Both stabs and HP fighting, means only Sludge Wave can poison and that is a low 10% chance, so more often then not, nothing is going to be poisoned. Running Toxic over HP means you become a free switchin for dangerous threats like Tran. Like, yes its a large list, but at +2, thats not saying much, im sure people can make much longer ones of +2 Kartana, but are actually relevant as well.

Blace is much better at wallbreaking due to not only having a higher special attack and more spammable stab, (and not being resisted by Pex) but it also scares walls with trick. Walls don't like being choice locked, because it makes life much harder to do their job properly. For example a choice locked Toxapex will have a much harder time dealing with setup mons. Blace can also fish for drops on walls because while 20% is still low (Double the chance of your sludge wave poison chance btw), if you do get the drop then that wall can't deal with Blace anymore and this isn't even mentioning Blace's ability to snowball.

So Blace can wallbreak by crippling walls with trick, drops with shadow ball, spammable stabs to hit almost all the meta for at least neutral damage and can snowball with beast boost to break through other walls more easily or even end up sweeping. In regardless to wasting a z move on Pokemon with lower bulk, the bulk is irrelevant if the threat is high enough. For example if Torn-T missing hurricane means you get swept by Kartana, then that 59/31 special bulk does not matter, people would waste their Z move on it.

I didn't want my reply to be this long, but I did want to cover everything since I basically disagreed with your entire post. Also, if this wasn't obvious enough, please don't compare Salazzle to Blace in terms of offensive sets, Blace is clearly the better pokemon and when you compare them together, there is not enough reason to use Salazzle over Blace, at least to the point where it should be ranked.

Dont have much to add other than blacephalon cannot actually use hpfighting because it needs to have at least 3 perfect ivs so the calcs he presented is valid.

Still dont think salazzle should be ranked though cause it doesnt stand out enough use it over other fires imo

 

[MANNAT]

This mon needs to move up to at least B+, it's a fantastic defensive and offensive presence in the metagame as well as a mon that can compress roles with the best of them at a time where there's 6 million threats to prep for.. Kommo-o's great bulk allows it to check some of the most powerful offensive threats in the metagame with a good defensive set, most notably Ash Greninja, Heatran, and Kartana. Not only that, but Kommo-o can also be a frightening setup sweeper and win condition that can blow past offensive structures with either DD + Z or SR + Z, having access to arguably the best Z-move in the entire game. Not only that, but Kommo's great bulk leaves it fat enough to take even super effective hits that would be problematic for most other mons, such as Torn-T's Hurricane and Mega Alakazam's Psychic, meaning that you can force chokepoint positions where something has to get poisoned by Toxic late in games. With regards to what's changed in the metagame as of late to warrant a rise, the increased potency of Kartana and sustained brilliance of Heatran and Greninja along with the increased exploration of its sets as people have started to use it more and more have shown that when used correctly, Kommo-o has a variety of assets that make it an excellent pick in the metagame today, being able to both glue together teams from a defensive perspective as well as nearly singlehandedly win some games from the start, as evidenced by its obscene 90% winrate between the first two rounds of OLT. I use this mon on an absurd amount of teams and personally rate it around A-, being about as good as stuff like Tyranitar and Zapdos, but I'm fine settling for B+ as a 3 subrank jump is pretty ridiculous.

tldr: raise the broken clanger this thing is way too low lmao.

 

[ReadTheMango]

Speaking of B- threats that should probably be higher

B- ----> B

I feel like the pink blob is due for a rise. Ditto is affected by the metagame perhaps more than any other Pokemon, as it literally dictates what Ditto can actually do. I would argue that Ditto's niche is pretty justifiable in the current metagame with all the setup sweepers in the meta at the moment. I don't think even a couple of months ago that anybody would expect ditto to have 4 appearances in snake draft by this stage.


I think this game in particular highlights ditto's threatening position currently,
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-455603

Not to fanboy over Charmflash, but he played around his opponent's setup mons very well. Ditto was utilized to pose a major counter-threat to Mana's team, especially as the Garchomp. Even just looking at team matchup, Ditto forces caution from Chomp, Mawile and Serp, with regards to their setting up.

Ditto is also solid for scouting sets, which is an underrated function, especially in tournament where lures are so prevalent. This isn't a surefire thing though, as highlighted by this Soulwind vs Eo game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-455306

BONUS REPLAY

Here Valentine realizes on the end turn that he is... boned, by ditto and forfeits. Also very solid usage of the ditto to ensure victory late, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-455305

I struggle a little to justify this myself (because I'm a hardstuck ladder player), but based on what I'm seeing in tournaments, I think this thing deserves to be right in the middle of the pack at B rank.

 

[ZESTO]

Toxicroak: UR --> C- or C

Toxicroak has the potential to be a niche anti-meta pick due to its ability to check many of the current top threats. Water types like Ash-Greninja, Protean Greninja w/o Extrasensory, Toxapex, Suicune, and Tapu Fini are completely walled by it, and grass types like Serperior and Ferrothorn fear its STAB moves. Previously mentioned sets consisted of Swords Dance + Life Orb in an attempt to classify Toxicroak as a set-up sweeper; I believe this is suboptimal, however, as Toxicroak lacks both the bulk and the speed to justify having a sweeping set within the OU metagame. The sweeper set's reliance on a weak non-STAB Sucker Punch cuts down on coverage options as well.

Equipped with an Assault Vest, Toxicroak trades being able to hit hard for the ability to 1v1 and beat threats it couldn't before, such as Magearna, Heatran, and Tapu Koko, soaking up their attacks and OHKO'ing or 2HKO'ing in return. Despite its frail physical defense, Toxicroak can take anything +1 TTar throws out (barring EQ) and threaten the OHKO in return. It can also revenge kill M-Mawile, surviving a +2 sucker punch and deal heavy damage with an Earthquake of its own. In this way, Toxicroak can be used as a one-time removal of a threat on the opposing team.

Toxicroak @ Assault Vest
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 60 SpD / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Earthquake

Moves

Gunk Shot is great for spreading poison with a 30% chance, and deals decent damage to unresisted targets. It is crucial for ensuring the prompt removal of fairy types like Clefable, All Tapus (only if Lele is locked into Moonblast though), Azumarill, etc. as well as targeting Serperior.

Drain Punch is semi-reliable recovery and a secondary STAB move. It can OHKO almost all variants of TTar and Greninja, and nets a 2HKO on Ferrothorn and Chansey with minimal chip.

Knock Off is for utility in item removal and scouting. Pairs well with Toxicroak's tendency to force switches on the things that it walls.

Earthquake is an absolutely necessary coverage move used to OHKO Heatran and Magnezone, and 2HKO Toxapex and Magearna.

Toxicroak can come in on many threats and either outright kill them or support its team through Knock Off and Gunk Shot poisons. EVs aim to maximize attack and speed creep modest offensive Heatran, with the remainder dumped into SpDef.

Defensive Calcs

Literally any water move vs. Dry Skin Toxicroak: -- gimme 25% HP for free

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 97-114 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 84.8% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 109-130 (35.5 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

12 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 87-103 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 186-220 (60.5 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Dry Skin Toxicroak: 196-232 (63.8 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage

252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 190-224 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dry Skin Toxicroak: 260-306 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

+2 200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 122-144 (39.7 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak in Electric Terrain: 156-184 (50.8 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Offensive Calcs

252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 223-264 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini: 326-386 (95 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-368 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 182-216 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 336-396 (87.7 - 103.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 186-220 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 396-468 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 172-204 (65.1 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-975626569 (Against HO? Maybe?)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-975628653 (Toxicroak wins against stall)


I would like to reiterate that the best thing about AV Toxicroak is how it completely invalidates Ash-Greninja. Toxicroak can switch into it multiple times per game and force the switch every time, exerting alpha frog dominance. With Protean it's a bit more tricky, but predicting either Ice Beam, HP Fire, or Gunk Shot and picking either Drain Punch or EQ grants you the OHKO. Nothing can be done about Z-Dig or Extrasensory variants though.

Toxicroak has enough glaring weaknesses that prevent it from dominating the OU tier, like being dead weight against the omnipresent Lando-T and Psyspam teams. It is unable to do much to defensive mons that are not hit super-effectively by its coverage moves, and any fast physical attacker will force it out. What it can do, however, is check a niche variety of threats like Magearna, Heatran, Tyranitar, Koko, Toxapex, Serperior, Chansey, and Greninja, which is why I nominate it for the C- tier.

 

[VCrakeV]

Toxicroak: UR --> C- or C

Toxicroak has the potential to be a niche anti-meta pick due to its ability to check many of the current top threats. Water types like Ash-Greninja, Protean Greninja w/o Extrasensory, Toxapex, Suicune, and Tapu Fini are completely walled by it, and grass types like Serperior and Ferrothorn fear its STAB moves. Previously mentioned sets consisted of Swords Dance + Life Orb in an attempt to classify Toxicroak as a set-up sweeper; I believe this is suboptimal, however, as Toxicroak lacks both the bulk and the speed to justify having a sweeping set within the OU metagame. The sweeper set's reliance on a weak non-STAB Sucker Punch cuts down on coverage options as well.

Equipped with an Assault Vest, Toxicroak trades being able to hit hard for the ability to 1v1 and beat threats it couldn't before, such as Magearna, Heatran, and Tapu Koko, soaking up their attacks and OHKO'ing or 2HKO'ing in return. Despite its frail physical defense, Toxicroak can take anything +1 TTar throws out (barring EQ) and threaten the OHKO in return. It can also revenge kill M-Mawile, surviving a +2 sucker punch and deal heavy damage with an Earthquake of its own. In this way, Toxicroak can be used as a one-time removal of a threat on the opposing team.

Toxicroak @ Assault Vest
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 60 SpD / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Earthquake

Moves

Gunk Shot is great for spreading poison with a 30% chance, and deals decent damage to unresisted targets. It is crucial for ensuring the prompt removal of fairy types like Clefable, All Tapus (only if Lele is locked into Moonblast though), Azumarill, etc. as well as targeting Serperior.

Drain Punch is semi-reliable recovery and a secondary STAB move. It can OHKO almost all variants of TTar and Greninja, and nets a 2HKO on Ferrothorn and Chansey with minimal chip.

Knock Off is for utility in item removal and scouting. Pairs well with Toxicroak's tendency to force switches on the things that it walls.

Earthquake is an absolutely necessary coverage move used to OHKO Heatran and Magnezone, and 2HKO Toxapex and Magearna.

Toxicroak can come in on many threats and either outright kill them or support its team through Knock Off and Gunk Shot poisons. EVs aim to maximize attack and speed creep modest offensive Heatran, with the remainder dumped into SpDef.

Defensive Calcs

Literally any water move vs. Dry Skin Toxicroak: -- gimme 25% HP for free

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 97-114 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 84.8% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 109-130 (35.5 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

12 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 87-103 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 186-220 (60.5 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Dry Skin Toxicroak: 196-232 (63.8 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage

252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 190-224 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dry Skin Toxicroak: 260-306 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

+2 200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 122-144 (39.7 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak in Electric Terrain: 156-184 (50.8 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Offensive Calcs

252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 223-264 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini: 326-386 (95 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-368 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 182-216 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 336-396 (87.7 - 103.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 186-220 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 396-468 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 172-204 (65.1 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-975626569 (Against HO? Maybe?)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-975628653 (Toxicroak wins against stall)


I would like to reiterate that the best thing about AV Toxicroak is how it completely invalidates Ash-Greninja. Toxicroak can switch into it multiple times per game and force the switch every time, exerting alpha frog dominance. With Protean it's a bit more tricky, but predicting either Ice Beam, HP Fire, or Gunk Shot and picking either Drain Punch or EQ grants you the OHKO. Nothing can be done about Z-Dig or Extrasensory variants though.

Toxicroak has enough glaring weaknesses that prevent it from dominating the OU tier, like being dead weight against the omnipresent Lando-T and Psyspam teams. It is unable to do much to defensive mons that are not hit super-effectively by its coverage moves, and any fast physical attacker will force it out. What it can do, however, is check a niche variety of threats like Magearna, Heatran, Tyranitar, Koko, Toxapex, Serperior, Chansey, and Greninja, which is why I nominate it for the C- tier.

How exactly does this check Heatran? It is 2HKOed by timid sets, which also outspeed it. It also fails to check cm Magearna (I'm assuming this is the set you want to beat, as you use max special attack in calcs, and only cm sets use max special attack). It can OHKO after a boost, especially with fairium z.

Additionally, if you're going to nominate Toxicroak, you should mention rain. Fitting Toxicroak on a rain team gives it passive recovery and also allows it check Heatran.

 

[ZESTO]

How exactly does this check Heatran? It is 2HKOed by timid sets, which also outspeed it. It also fails to check cm Magearna (I'm assuming this is the set you want to beat, as you use max special attack in calcs, and only cm sets use max special attack). It can OHKO after a boost, especially with fairium z.

Additionally, if you're going to nominate Toxicroak, you should mention rain. Fitting Toxicroak on a rain team gives it passive recovery and also allows it check Heatran.

You could just make it jolly if you wanted to ensure that Heatran loses every time, but without Adamant it loses so much of its already limited damage I believe it isn't worth it. It's a shaky check to Heatran anyways, I just wanted to mention that it has the capability to outspeed and OHKO the most common variants. If given a free switch in it forces out Heatran which allows for aggressive double switches. I would not consider it to be a viable check to CM Magearna nor Fairium Z Magearna. I guess CM Magearna gets hit by EQ once as it boosts up, and again before it can attack, but Toxicroak can't do anything if it has already boosted or if it had boosted on the switch. If the Magearna lacks Fleur Cannon though, Toxicroak wins basically every time since even +2 Flash Cannon from CM Mag only does 94% maximum. BoltBeam Mag loses, AV Mag loses, Heart Swap Pain Split loses, etc.

Thank you for mentioning rain, I forgot about that. Toxicroak on rain is good for the recovery, but it isn't necessary if you only want to check one or two specific things on the other team, like Ash-Greninja, Serperior, or Toxapex for example. Toxicroak can synergize well with rain teams, but all I had in mind for it was to be a creative solution for teams weak to Ash-Greninja, distinguishing itself in being able to actually attack unlike Mantine and Toxapex.

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

Toxicroak has the potential to be a niche anti-meta pick due to its ability to check many of the current top threats. Water types like Ash-Greninja, Protean Greninja w/o Extrasensory, Toxapex, Suicune, and Tapu Fini are completely walled by it, and grass types like Serperior and Ferrothorn fear its STAB moves. Previously mentioned sets consisted of Swords Dance + Life Orb in an attempt to classify Toxicroak as a set-up sweeper; I believe this is suboptimal, however, as Toxicroak lacks both the bulk and the speed to justify having a sweeping set within the OU metagame. The sweeper set's reliance on a weak non-STAB Sucker Punch cuts down on coverage options as well.

I wouldn't call it a niche anti-meta pick, since it doesn't really beat any top tiers aside from ash gren and toxapex. I will be going over how it fails at doing this role, aswell as why the replays don't really mean much.

Heatran completely wrecks it, z magma storm completely curb stomps it on a switchin and always kos without even having to risk a miss since flash cannon does about 40% while magma does about 70%. Sdef tran always gets free rocks up while still threatening croak with lava plume.

Protean gren is usually either Z dig, spikes or U-turn, all 3 of which wreck toxicroak. Tapu Fini completely wrecks it with Natures madness/moonblast as chip, toxicroak will not be capable of long term checking it.

Ferrothorn just leeches/gyro balls on the switch or just sets up hazards an serp just does the same except all serp sets beat it. Scarf is always knock off and standard just glares/leech seeds it.

That leaves toxapex and Ash-gren as the only two mons it checks, and well, it walls pex unless it's knock off and ash gren can just get up spikes. I really do not know why you brough up Suicune here at all, it's not really a top tier threat and isn't really seen much on ladder or in tourneys.

It also looses to most Top-tier threats, landorus-T completely curb stomps it, Magearna just gets free momentum out of it with Volt switch and also just fleur cannons it, Torn-T just spams hurricane/knock off unless you have a check (celesteela doesn't count, knock off just makes it borederline useless). Mega-Alakazam doesn't even die to sucker punch (max roll is 97%) and hits back with a STAB psychic. If you take a look at the viability rankings you will see that it does poorly against most of the meta.

The defensive calcs really don't mean much. I don't even know why you added the tran calcs, croak never switches into it nor does tran switch into croak, and even if you get into a 1v1 situation, tran is just gonna click z magma or z flash and OHKOs. Ttar just kos it, the chances of toxicroak not being chipped beforehand are so small that the calc doesn't even matter. And tapu Koko just volts/uturns, almost every Koko has volt/U-turn so again, it doesn't really matter.

Now I'll get into the replays and oh boy are they not accurate, in the first game, your opponent esentially just lets you get a free setup with mega gyarados, which KO's the webs setter giving you a decent starting advantage. Then they try to revenge kill gyara with pinsir which just gets stopped by lando, which then also ko's it with rock tomb since they for some reason click SD even though you went hard into landorus. And then they basically loose since they lost their only win con. Not to mention that the Ho in question (in my opinion) wasn't a very good one.

And now for the stall game and oh boy is this the most inaccurate representation of croak vs stall I will probably ever seen, first turn in and it's already apparent that the opponent isn't using protect mega-sableye (somthing very important to have if you don't have jirachi), which costs them their chansey. They also try to set up T-spikes on the celesteela for some reason, even though they should know that toxicroak walls. And if that wasn't bad enough, their team is for some reason, standard stall (toxapex, chansey, M-Sableye and skarmory) but with a defensive tapu bulu and a belly drum linoone thrown into the mix. Against a real stall team, the toxicroak team would just flop completely, since, there is no real stall breaker present (the skarm just sets up rocks/spikes for free and you pretty much just win from there).

My point is that, you can't really use replays against people who make lost of mistakes to prove that a mon is good enough to be ranked. These replays are extremely inaccurate and toxicroak doesn't even do much in any of them.

Toxicroak on rain is good for the recovery, but it isn't necessary if you only want to check one or two specific things on the other team, like Ash-Greninja, Serperior, or Toxapex for example. Toxicroak can synergize well with rain teams, but all I had in mind for it was to be a creative solution for teams weak to Ash-Greninja, distinguishing itself in being able to actually attack unlike Mantine and Toxapex.

On rain, toxicroak doesn't really do much over any of the other mons, since standard rain is always Pelipper, Mega pert, Torn-T and Ferrothorn, fitting in toxicrak on the last two team slots can be quite hard since it's competition is Ash gren, Manaphy, Azumarill, Tapu Koko, Hawlucha and Kingdra, sure some of these mons have a distinct niche they have to follow in order to be good on rain but they do it well enough to be better than anything toxicroak can do. Against rain however, it's sort of interesting, it does poorly against every rain mon aside from Greninja and Kingdra, I could see it having potential as a greninja stopper, but it is heavily outclassed by the likes of toxapex and gastrodon at that role simply because both have reliable recovery while not really needing to be offensive since you can just pivot around and scald/toxic chip everything down.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

Toxicroak: UR --> C- or C

I would like to reiterate that the best thing about AV Toxicroak is how it completely invalidates Ash-Greninja. Toxicroak can switch into it multiple times per game and force the switch every time, exerting alpha frog dominance.

Toxicroak is nowhere close to the "counter" to Ash-Greninja that you are making it out to be. If ash-gren is transformed, you can switch in ONCE. You have no real recovery to be a reliable counter; the opponent isn't going to go to Excadrill to take a drain punch like you showed in your replay. When it's not transformed, you can't risk coming in on protean blindly.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 96-114 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Additionally, you are such a momentum sink and obvious ash-Gren check that it is just going to spike on you and go to lando. Being forced to drain punch isn't a good option when lando/gliscor is on every team. It's too slow, too weak, and too susceptible to hazards to be used as an offensive check.

If you are going to gimp yourself this hard vs everything that isn't non-transformed, battle bond, specs greninja, then you may as well use something like gastrodon or chesnaught.

What it can do, however, is check a niche variety of threats like Magearna, Heatran, Tyranitar, Koko, Toxapex, Serperior, Chansey

Doesn't stop sweeper mag and gets Vswitched on by fat sets. Heatran outspeeds and 2HKOs? Ttar -- barely. Koko is going to tbolt as you come in and then pivot out. You wont ever touch it. Toxapex yes. Serperior scarf only. Chansey sure.

I don't think toxicroack should be ranked. It is a toxapex stop and that's it.

 

[MrHands]

Toxicroak might have some uses as a Toxapex counter and Greninja check but it isn't really actually good. Certainly not a garbage AV set. At the very least give it Life Orb so it can punish every time you switch in for free on pex.

Keep it in YouTube gimmick videos where it belongs. Any uses it has in OU are minor and not really worth mentioning on serious teams.

 

[ZESTO]

Toxicroak is nowhere close to the "counter" to Ash-Greninja that you are making it out to be. If ash-gren is transformed, you can switch in ONCE. You have no real recovery to be a reliable counter; the opponent isn't going to go to Excadrill to take a drain punch like you showed in your replay. When it's not transformed, you can't risk coming in on protean blindly.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 96-114 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Additionally, you are such a momentum sink and obvious ash-Gren check that it is just going to spike on you and go to lando. Being forced to drain punch isn't a good option when lando/gliscor is on every team. It's too slow, too weak, and too susceptible to hazards to be used as an offensive check.

If you are going to gimp yourself this hard vs everything that isn't non-transformed, battle bond, specs greninja, then you may as well use something like gastrodon or chesnaught.



Doesn't stop sweeper mag and gets Vswitched on by fat sets. Heatran outspeeds and 2HKOs? Ttar -- barely. Koko is going to tbolt as you come in and then pivot out. You wont ever touch it. Toxapex yes. Serperior scarf only. Chansey sure.

I don't think toxicroack should be ranked. It is a toxapex stop and that's it.

Why would Ash-Greninja be transformed when you have Toxicroak up? And with Toxicroak being such an obvious switch-in, you can abuse the fact that they'll lock themselves into Spikes instead of attacking, forcing mindgames.

Also, never ever switch into Koko or Heatran with this thing. It works as a check, not a counter. Bring it in with slow U-Turn or something, and if they stay in thinking they can OHKO Toxicroak then that's great, if they don't use a Z-Move Toxicroak lives and they get OHKO'd themselves.

As for Magearna, even the fact that it can beat some of its sets is useful, very few mons can stop every single variation of Magearna.

The Ttar calc was assuming bulky SR M-TTar. Any Ttar with less bulk is a clean OHKO.

Toxicroak might have some uses as a Toxapex counter and Greninja check but it isn't really actually good. Certainly not a garbage AV set. At the very least give it Life Orb so it can punish every time you switch in for free on pex.

Keep it in YouTube gimmick videos where it belongs. Any uses it has in OU are minor and not really worth mentioning on serious teams.

Toxicroak isn't punishing any of its switch-ins with LO boosted attacks. Giving it LO wears it down too much for it to be able to check A-Gren, and the damage boost is insignificant against the likes of Lando-T or Scizor. Knock Off and Gunk Shot are your "punish" options.

I wouldn't call it a niche anti-meta pick, since it doesn't really beat any top tiers aside from ash gren and toxapex. I will be going over how it fails at doing this role, aswell as why the replays don't really mean much.

Heatran completely wrecks it, z magma storm completely curb stomps it on a switchin and always kos without even having to risk a miss since flash cannon does about 40% while magma does about 70%. Sdef tran always gets free rocks up while still threatening croak with lava plume.

Protean gren is usually either Z dig, spikes or U-turn, all 3 of which wreck toxicroak. Tapu Fini completely wrecks it with Natures madness/moonblast as chip, toxicroak will not be capable of long term checking it.

Ferrothorn just leeches/gyro balls on the switch or just sets up hazards an serp just does the same except all serp sets beat it. Scarf is always knock off and standard just glares/leech seeds it.

That leaves toxapex and Ash-gren as the only two mons it checks, and well, it walls pex unless it's knock off and ash gren can just get up spikes. I really do not know why you brough up Suicune here at all, it's not really a top tier threat and isn't really seen much on ladder or in tourneys.

It also looses to most Top-tier threats, landorus-T completely curb stomps it, Magearna just gets free momentum out of it with Volt switch and also just fleur cannons it, Torn-T just spams hurricane/knock off unless you have a check (celesteela doesn't count, knock off just makes it borederline useless). Mega-Alakazam doesn't even die to sucker punch (max roll is 97%) and hits back with a STAB psychic. If you take a look at the viability rankings you will see that it does poorly against most of the meta.

The defensive calcs really don't mean much. I don't even know why you added the tran calcs, croak never switches into it nor does tran switch into croak, and even if you get into a 1v1 situation, tran is just gonna click z magma or z flash and OHKOs. Ttar just kos it, the chances of toxicroak not being chipped beforehand are so small that the calc doesn't even matter. And tapu Koko just volts/uturns, almost every Koko has volt/U-turn so again, it doesn't really matter.

Now I'll get into the replays and oh boy are they not accurate, in the first game, your opponent esentially just lets you get a free setup with mega gyarados, which KO's the webs setter giving you a decent starting advantage. Then they try to revenge kill gyara with pinsir which just gets stopped by lando, which then also ko's it with rock tomb since they for some reason click SD even though you went hard into landorus. And then they basically loose since they lost their only win con. Not to mention that the Ho in question (in my opinion) wasn't a very good one.

And now for the stall game and oh boy is this the most inaccurate representation of croak vs stall I will probably ever seen, first turn in and it's already apparent that the opponent isn't using protect mega-sableye (somthing very important to have if you don't have jirachi), which costs them their chansey. They also try to set up T-spikes on the celesteela for some reason, even though they should know that toxicroak walls. And if that wasn't bad enough, their team is for some reason, standard stall (toxapex, chansey, M-Sableye and skarmory) but with a defensive tapu bulu and a belly drum linoone thrown into the mix. Against a real stall team, the toxicroak team would just flop completely, since, there is no real stall breaker present (the skarm just sets up rocks/spikes for free and you pretty much just win from there).

My point is that, you can't really use replays against people who make lost of mistakes to prove that a mon is good enough to be ranked. These replays are extremely inaccurate and toxicroak doesn't even do much in any of them.

On rain, toxicroak doesn't really do much over any of the other mons, since standard rain is always Pelipper, Mega pert, Torn-T and Ferrothorn, fitting in toxicrak on the last two team slots can be quite hard since it's competition is Ash gren, Manaphy, Azumarill, Tapu Koko, Hawlucha and Kingdra, sure some of these mons have a distinct niche they have to follow in order to be good on rain but they do it well enough to be better than anything toxicroak can do. Against rain however, it's sort of interesting, it does poorly against every rain mon aside from Greninja and Kingdra, I could see it having potential as a greninja stopper, but it is heavily outclassed by the likes of toxapex and gastrodon at that role simply because both have reliable recovery while not really needing to be offensive since you can just pivot around and scald/toxic chip everything down.

Heatran can never stay in against Toxicroak since it dies to EQ. Toxicroak can't switch into Heatran, but neither can Heatran into Toxicroak. Only timid Z-Fire Heatran comfortably takes on Toxicroak 1v1.

I feel like people keep misinterpreting that Toxicroak counters all of the mons I've listed so far. It only counters Ash-Greninja and Toxapex. Everything else I've listed is checked by a Toxicroak given a free switch, being forced out at risk of being 2HKOd or OHKOd.

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

Heatran can never stay in against Toxicroak since it dies to EQ. Toxicroak can't switch into Heatran, but neither can Heatran into Toxicroak. Only timid Z-Fire Heatran comfortably takes on Toxicroak 1v1.

I feel like people keep misinterpreting that Toxicroak counters all of the mons I've listed so far. It only counters Ash-Greninja and Toxapex. Everything else I've listed is checked by a Toxicroak given a free switch, being forced out at risk of being 2HKOd or OHKOd.

My point in that whole heatran part was pretty much, why would I U-turn into toxicroak when there are better mons that can be U-turned into that also aren't sitting ducks against their counters. If the opponent has an sd z move lando/chomp, you pretty much have to fish for a gunk shot poison on the setup or else you just get swept. Which, wouldn't be a problem if you were using landorus and fini over toxicroak + another mon, since landorus can atleast punish a switch with U-turn, setup, rocks etc.

Why would Ash-Greninja be transformed when you have Toxicroak up? And with Toxicroak being such an obvious switch-in, you can abuse the fact that they'll lock themselves into Spikes instead of attacking, forcing mindgames.

Sure, forcing mind games can be useful, but why would I risk mind games, when tapu fini is both decently offensive (moonblast and natures madness) and hard walls a decent chunk of the meta while still being capable of defoging the spikes away? It is both usually risk free, while still providing decent offense.

Toxicroak isn't punishing any of its switch-ins with LO boosted attacks. Giving it LO wears it down too much for it to be able to check A-Gren, and the damage boost is insignificant against the likes of Lando-T or Scizor. Knock Off and Gunk Shot are your "punish" options.

It gets worn down by hazards + random special attacks either way, you pretty much have to drain punch every switchin anyway, or else you just get chipped. This is why I really wouldn't call it a fini check, since you really have to spam defog and take moonblasts over and over again, which is eventually going to give the opponent enough time to wear it down.

I am also questioning why you even added the Tar calc, the only Ttar variant that is dd is the mega version, and the chances of it not being chipped beforehand are extremely slim so +1 Fire punch will usually OHKO.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

I don't know if this mon has been talk about yet but I would like to make a case for it.

Unranked -> C- or C

Chesnaught has a interesting defensive niche as its one of the rare mons that resists the EdgeQuake combo and also resist both of Ash-Greninja's STABs. Its naturally good defense stats make it a decent check to M-Swampert, Tyranitar, and Choiced Kartana. And even countering a few of them like Z Stone Edge Garchomp. Bulletproof is a amazing ability thats lets it counter Ferrothorn completely.

So thats its defensive presence, so what utility does it have?

Luckly it gets access to Leech Seed to make up for its lack of reliable recovery and Spikes which is aways nice because there aren't many viable mons that get that move. But it also one of the rare mons that gets access to the amazing Spiky Shield which makes its match up against choice users even better and gives it leftovers recovery in the process.

Its also a grass type that doesn't need to use coverage to hit Heatran which is nice.

I'll say C-/C is reasonable because it has horrible match ups against Clefable, Reuniclus, Tapu Bulu, Volcarona, and more.

The Set.

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 148 SpD
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Leech Seed
- Spiky Shield/Wood Hammer
- Spikes

148 SpD EVs lets Chesnaught take 2 Ash-Gren Hydro Pumps from full health and rest it poured into its Defense.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-976550948 Had a amazing match up and it put him in a awkward position and he tried to stop me from spamming leech seed and it didn't work out.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-976548695 Quick game but it shows how Chesnaught completely invaildates Z-Stone Edge Garchomp from wallbreaking. It also shows how useful Spiky Shield is as it blocked a trick from Jirachi.

 

[ZESTO]

My point in that whole heatran part was pretty much, why would I U-turn into toxicroak when there are better mons that can be U-turned into that also aren't sitting ducks against their counters. If the opponent has an sd z move lando/chomp, you pretty much have to fish for a gunk shot poison on the setup or else you just get swept. Which, wouldn't be a problem if you were using landorus and fini over toxicroak + another mon, since landorus can atleast punish a switch with U-turn, setup, rocks etc.

If your opponent still has a Z-Move ground type on their team, which is probably the hardest of hard counters to Toxicroak, then don't use Toxicroak so aggressively. Toxicroak can have teammates too, right? When used in conjunction with Lando-T, Toxicroak would cover Lando-T's susceptibility to A-Gren and defensive HP Ice Lando-T can cover opposing ground types. Fini does better against much more of the meta, but Toxicroak can beat Bulu and Serp.

Sure, forcing mind games can be useful, but why would I risk mind games, when tapu fini is both decently offensive (moonblast and natures madness) and hard walls a decent chunk of the meta while still being capable of defoging the spikes away? It is both usually risk free, while still providing decent offense.

Absolutely valid, which is why I nominated Toxicroak for C- tier instead of A tier like Fini. Toxicroak's only advantage over Fini is that it can OHKO specific targets.

It gets worn down by hazards + random special attacks either way, you pretty much have to drain punch every switchin anyway, or else you just get chipped. This is why I really wouldn't call it a fini check, since you really have to spam defog and take moonblasts over and over again, which is eventually going to give the opponent enough time to wear it down.

Toxicroak resists SR anyways, and the two most prominent Spikes setters in the tier, Ferro and Gren, can't set hazards in front of Toxicroak. If Spikes are already up then Toxicroak has some trouble.
If Fini stays in to Defog it eats a Gunk Shot. If Fini tries to chip with Moonblast/Nature's Madness it eats a Gunk Shot. Toxicroak isn't hard switching in on Fini to counter it, but it can act as an offensive check to Fini.

I am also questioning why you even added the Tar calc, the only Ttar variant that is dd is the mega version, and the chances of it not being chipped beforehand are extremely slim so +1 Fire punch will usually OHKO.

The calc just demonstrates that Toxicroak will survive most of whatever Ttar throws at it, aside from EQ of course. 3 attacks Ttar usually carries double STAB and only one of EQ or Fire Punch for coverage anyways.

 

[Jordy]

Hi Sagisolar, you really need replays for these type of nominations. It'd be a shame to delete the post at this stage so I'll give you 24 hours to edit some in.

Also, regarding the Toxicroak discussion, please try to stick to actually discussing Toxicroak's viability rather than nitpicking each other's posts. Future posts that fail to do this will be deleted.

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

I really don't think toxicroak is viable at all in the current meta, the roles it fulfills are way too niche too actually matter. Sure, it does beat some top tier threats, but it also looses to alot of the current metagame. It's also competing with toxapex and tapu fini as a ash gren wall, both of which fulfill said role but without being easily worn down. They also don't get dismantled completely by knock off.

Another problem I have with it is that, as far as recoveries go, drain punch is just horrible. It's walled by every ground type in the tier aside from excadrill, which is a huge problem since most teams have atleast one decently bulky ground type that takes a drain punch from it. The ground type in question can also get alot of momentum from it. Giving swampert, landorus-T, garchomp and gliscor a free switchin is just really bad, especially since all of them are extremely big threats.

As a counter to the grasses, it unfortunatly falls extremely short, every grass type in the tier can effectively cripple it in one way, mainly through just hitting it hard, but serp, non eq/non AV tang and non gyro ferrothorn can either status it, knock it, leech it or get up hazards. Knock and hazards are especially punishing, as they make it almost impossible for it to fulfill it's role as a special tank.

When it comes to beating water types, there are much better pokemon that already do that. I'm just going to skip over gyarados, swampert, manaphy, keldeo, rotom-W, protein gren and pelipper for obvious reasons, but against the rest of them, it kind of falls short. I will have to admit that toxapex is hard walled, but Tapu-fini and ash gren have their own ways of beting it. Ash gren can just set up spikes or ice beam on the switch for massive damage. Fini on the other hand, can just take away a clean 30% with moonblast or just natures madness for 50%, effectively removing the hp gain from drain punch.

Something else to keep in mind about Toxiroak, is that, it looses to almost every other pokemon viable in ou in some way, going over every mon in the tier would take awhile, so I'll just keep it brief. Tapu koko just attacks, Tbolt will usually do around 50% in terrain and it can just volt switch/u-turn to gain momentum. Skarmory just sets up hazards, whirlwinds or counters it (literally), since toxicroak doesn't do anything towards it, skarm can just set up free hazards and toxicroak can't really try to get HP back when in a 1v1 since it just gets countered. .

So to summarize it all, I can only say that toxicroak has two matchups that it does really well against, toxapex and chansey. Everything else can atleast get a clean 30% off, knock it off, set up hazards or just status it.

Here are some calcs that show why it doesn't really take any special hits at all.

Defensive Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 72-86 (23.4 - 28%) -- 87.4% chance to 4HKO
Gren gets really good chip off, toxicroak will eventually get chipped down.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 109-129 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Extremely solid chip, sure not every gren is ice beam, but the ones that are completely stop it.

12 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 87-103 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
Will eventually get chipped to death, it also doesn't get hp back from attacking it. so unless you double alot, you're not gonna get much healing back.

0 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak in Grassy Terrain: 108-128 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- 81.1% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Keep in mind, this is coming from a 0 attack tapu bulu, standard max attack banded always ohkos with wood hammer.

252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak in Electric Terrain: 156-184 (50.8 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It really only beats dual screens koko, Z move always threatens it.

0 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 153-181 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
even AV mag does well, it can even use volt switch to gain momentum

Here are some offensive calcs that show why it struggles hitting most of the meta.

Offensive Calcs

252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 102-120 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 89.8% chance to 3HKO
Strongest attack it can go for, it's not getting any hp back and this is assuming it's setup lando, any other version walls.

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 123-145 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Decent chip, chomp isn't really a hard switchin unless you want to switch it in from fini.

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 67-79 (20 - 23.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
barely does anything, skarm gets free hazards or just counters if you want to get more hp back.

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 111-132 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- 89.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Celesteela just gets free chip off on most mons.

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 79-94 (23 - 27.4%) -- 63.5% chance to 4HKO
Gets a free u-turn/sd off or just knocks something.

252+ Atk Toxicroak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 84-99 (23.8 - 28.1%)
The only time toxicroak is doing anything decent against gliscor is if it knocks the toxic orb off before it activates.

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 108-127 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- 83.8% chance to 3HKO
Pert is basically a free switchin, and giving pert a free switchin is one of the last things you ever want to do.

252+ Atk Toxicroak Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 85-101 (28 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
It gets completely curb stomped by stall, having to rely on a gunk shot poison to get chip off.

252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Hippowdon: 84-100 (20 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Literally the hardest wall in the game.

252+ Atk Toxicroak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 156-184 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
temporary check too it, also only does this much against it once.

I could go on and on about how these mons can use the free turn, but you get what I mean, one of these mons will always be on every team, which shuts down drain punch recovery hard, effectively permanantly crippling it against any team that can chip it down effectively.

 

[matthewc20090]

nomming kabutops for like c or something
specifically z-rock


kabutops @ rockium z
- sd
- stone edge
- liquidation
- superpower/ aqua jet

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-976405237
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-976398296

tops is a decent flavor pick for rain over manaphy or kingdra but theres a few advantages. z rock lets you break through stuff like rotom and serp easier than manaphy or kingdra can, superpower beats kart and ferrothorn if its weakened or if youre boosted, and rock typing means you beat opposing torn if they dont have focus blast. it also synergizes pretty well offensively with pert, being able to break fat grasses and fat waters for pert or pert breaking those same mons for kabutops. obviously doesnt have the bulk of kingdra or manaphy so you're basically trading a good matchup against fat grasses vs a better matchup against ash gren.

 

[Vaboh]

I don't know if this mon has been talk about yet but I would like to make a case for it.

View attachment 194989
Unranked -> C- or C

Chesnaught has a interesting defensive niche as its one of the rare mons that resists the EdgeQuake combo and also resist both of Ash-Greninja's STABs. Its naturally good defense stats make it a decent check to M-Swampert, Tyranitar, and Choiced Kartana. And even countering a few of them like Z Stone Edge Garchomp. Bulletproof is a amazing ability thats lets it counter Ferrothorn completely.

So thats its defensive presence, so what utility does it have?

Luckly it gets access to Leech Seed to make up for its lack of reliable recovery and Spikes which is aways nice because there aren't many viable mons that get that move. But it also one of the rare mons that gets access to the amazing Spiky Shield which makes its match up against choice users even better and gives it leftovers recovery in the process.

Its also a grass type that Heatran doesn't want to switch into or even stay in because most Heatrans are now SpD Magma which has shaky accuracy.

I'll say C-/C is reasonable because it has horrible match ups against Clefable, Reuniclus, Tapu Bulu, Volcarona, and more.

The Set.

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 148 SpD
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Leech Seed
- Spiky Shield/Wood Hammer
- Spikes

148 SpD EVs lets Chesnaught take 2 Ash-Gren Hydro Pumps from full health and rest it poured into its Defense.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-976550948 Had a amazing match up and it put him in a awkward position and he tried to stop me from spamming leech seed and it didn't work out.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-976548695 Quick game but it shows how Chesnaught completely invaildates Z-Stone Edge Garchomp from wallbreaking. It also shows how useful Spiky Shield is as it blocked a trick from Jirachi.

I have been using chesnaught for about a month now and I 100% agree with this nomination. It completely invalidates ferrothron, easily checks kartana unless z giga impact (which is still about a 50 percent role to kill from full), checks z rock chomp, lando, ttar, bulu, swampert, and can switch in once or twice to pre-ash gren. Chesnaught has access to recovery in drain punch and leech seed. Although its recovery might not be enough at times, wish support makes its longevity a lot better. Chesnaught can also chip at the physical attackers with rocky helmet, the item I have been using on it. I prefer to go with max defense as you will need another check to gren anyways. Chesnaught still tanks gren's hits decently and force it out.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 145-171 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also here are two ridiculous calcs that just show how physically bulky chesnaught is.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 348-410 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
the fact that the strongest physical attacker in ou can't always ohko it with it's stab super effective move is insane to me

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 272-324 (71.7 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Here are some replays of chesnaught putting in work
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-976588881-f8b6tuz1ek031uo13aoq8dgdaj3v4x2pw Chesnaught eats up +2 giga impact from kart and kills it. It also pressures mega ttar which does have fire punch but only does about 40
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-976765480-dj7x1qndup4z93tl42w381j0jl8fqsdpw Here is a replay of chesnaught pressuring ferro and competing in the spike war with it.
The team shown in the replays got me to the 1900s on the ladder. I truly believe that chesnaught deserves a C rank on the viability rankings and should be looked into more as a niche physical wall in ou as it can check some of the strongest physical attackers. Seriously, this mon is not a meme pick. Try it out.

 

[Diophantine]

Celebi: UR -> C/C+ Rank ​

Celebi has the stats and movepool to back up being a decent (though flawed) Pokemon in the USUM OU metagame. I thought of this mainly due to the torrential abuse of teams supported by Pelliper's Drizzle. Celebi, with a bit of Defence investment, avoids a 2HKO from Mega Swampert's Ice Punch; it can outspeed at 2HKO Manaphy (they don't run much speed iirc) and can deal with threats like Azumarill and Crawdaunt (though it can't reliably switch into the latter). It also survives an OHKO from Ash-Greninja's Dark Pulse pre-Battle Bond and can punish it, provided it doesn't get flinched.

The spirit of Ilex Forest has uses outside of the rain matchup too. With a bit of speed investment, it can outspeed all versions of Heatran and 2HKO even Specially Defensive variants with Earth Power. If you have managed to Knock Off Celesteela's Leftovers, then Celebi can come in, wall it and prevent it from recovering from Leech Seed due to its useful Grass typing and Recover off any Heavy Slam or Flamethrower damage. Celebi also walls several threats such as Mega Lopunny and Mega Diancie.

Celebi can run a number of moves to give its user utility. HP Fire can be used to surprise Scizor users and dent Ferrothorn; Thunder Wave can be used for speed control; Leech Seed is useful for punishing non-Grass-type Pokemon that would like to switch in like Heatran, Medicham and Kyurem; Worry Seed can remove Gliscor's Poison Heal, Mawile and Medicham’s attack boosting abilities and stop Regenerator; Toxic can be aimed at Latios/Latias and Tapu Bulu and HP Ice can be used to 2HKO Gliscor and the list goes on - use your imagination lol. Heck, this thing can even get Rocks up. Natural Cure is obviously a really good ability allowing it to pivot into Toxapex and other such passive status spreaders with ease.

Celebi is not without its flaws though. 4x weakness to a move as spammable as U-Turn is not great, and it can sometimes be quite passive in the face of Pokemon that tend to set-up (though this can be mitigated with the correct team support. It can be walled by opposing Pokemon like Mega Sableye and Tapu Bulu quite easily. Four moveslot syndrome takes its toll on our little Onion Fairy as it has so many good utility moves but can't run them all. Grass STAB and Recover are necessary, the other two slots can be left to the imagination, though I have always ran Earth Power leaving only one slot left to get creative with.

For these reasons, I think that Celebi's niche earns it a spot in either C+ or C rank. I haven't yet tried to use an offensive Celebi, but I will make sure to and give my thoughts afterwards. May the spirit of Ilex Forest bring you good health and prosperity. Peace xx

Some replays coz Jordy asked. I had much better quality games in testing with a friend but I don't usually save replays of friendlies so I just went to mess around on ladder.

Hide

Vs Rain
Vs Scizor
Vs Charizard X (tbf I should have attacked with Celebi turn 2 instead of switching but whatever I guess this is a demonstration of its bulk)
Vs Webs

 

[Jordy]

Hey Diophantine, you really need replays to support your post. Because it'd be a shame to outright delete, I'll give you 24 hours to add some.

 

[Diophantine]

Hey Diophantine, you really need replays to support your post. Because it'd be a shame to outright delete, I'll give you 24 hours to add some.

Edited in.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

Hello

Cofagrigus to C

Cofagrigus @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball / Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic Spikes
- Pain Split / Knock Off / Z-Haze

IDK why this was ever ranked in the first place for its OTR set; defensive so much better. With Mega Mawile and Medicham all over the place, it is a great time to use mummyboi. Use Z haze if you can afford the Z-move, but otherwise, it better to punish with helmet and recover with pain-split. Leave the setup check to pex.

Currently popular stuff that this stops:

• Mega Mawile
• Mega Medicham
• Mega Lopunny
• Lando-T (Fat and scarf)
• Torn T (stop regen and get chip on uturn)
• Hawlucha (loses unburden)
• Kartana (non-banded)
• SpD Bulu
• Mega Swampert (stops sweep)
• Gliscor (if you can trick one into making contact w/ you)

There are obviously the other non-meta dependent factors like being a nice spin blocker, being FAT, and setting T-spikes, the latter of which is very nice with current psychic spam. But you already know all that.

Page of calcs in case you doubting the beefy-ness

Show Calcs

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 154-183 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
High Jump Kick 37.8 - 45% (50% crash damage)
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
232 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 97-115 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 42.3% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 172-204 (53.7 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 105-124 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO (50% change to KO back with shadow ball after helmet damage)
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus in Rain: 121-144 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Jordy you know you love it. One sec for replay pls
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977052270
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977079973
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977084947
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977089009

Cofagrigus Offense (heh): https://pokepast.es/f9ca5b007d66ba9b

 

[Jordy]

I really don't mind telling people to post replays every now and again, but this is just ridiculous. I really shouldn't have to constantly tell people to post replays. Next time this happens, your post will be deleted without any warning.