State of Sun & Moon OU

[aim]

Hey there, I’d like to discuss the current state of SM OU. It’s no secret that there are numerous complaints about the imbalance in the current metagame. There’s simply too much to cover and too many mons that force building to be an absolute nightmare. I believe that the metagame has reached a state where builders have to ignore threats in order to make successful teams. The tier has become destabilized to the point where many top players have accepted that it’s become a “matchup meta”. While matchup is prevalent in many tiers and generations, it is most prominent in SM OU, with many significant games being decided or near decided at team preview.

I know that we have gone the entire year without any suspects, and we are approaching the end of the generation, but I feel that a suspect test is necessary in order to bring some semblance of balance back into the tier. I believe that kartana fits under this category for a myriad of reasons.

Kartana is the most fearsome breaker in the tier, not having any true counters, while also being one of the best late game cleaners in the tier with its scarf set. Due to its plethora of sets, multiple forms of counterplay are often required in order to prevent teams from being overwhelmed by kart, which in turn leaves fewer slots to deal with other threats. This essentially forces builders to choose between having robust counterplay to kart or being able to adequately cover the rest of the metagame. For example, torn is considered to be one of the most consistent and splashable answers to kart, but it also does not take smart strikes from it very well and gets nuked by z giga impact. As a result, balanced teams featuring torn oftentimes opt to add something like mega latias as another mon that can pivot into kart and add a strong steel resist like heatran in order to assure that they can’t get obliterated by smart strike spam. The way that kart warps teambuilding in this way is very unhealthy for the metagame and limits both creativity and the effectiveness of the teams that people make in the metagame. As such, I believe that banning it would seriously free up teambuilding and make the tier much more balanced.

I hope that at the very least, the council will discuss the possibility of a suspect test for either Kartana or another mon that they think would improve the tier if banned. I feel SM OU needs a change one way or another before the end of the generation.

 

[z0mOG]

Personally, I think anything questionable should always be tested (and re-tested from ubers), so I'd be unopposed to the idea of a Kartana test. Testing has no downsides ever. People get the opportunity for TC and the meta can only be improved for the general playerbase (if it deserves a ban or unban then such will happen). There can only be good to come from having as many suspect tests as possible.

Even though gen 8 is around the corner, the precedent for post-oldgen testing has been made clear that it will still happen, so this isn't an excuse to halt any changes to gen 7 tiers. We aren't in a rush to finalize the meta, the tier will be relevant for at least another 6 years (here's hoping at least...). There are some specific pokemon in OU specifically which may be questionable, and some in Ubers which may be questionable. If the tier COULD be improved, then why not?

As for Kartana in particular, I don't find it over the top at all personally. I don't fully agree with the notion that it has no counters when it is really reliant on having the right set to be effective as would any sweeper generally be. It has a fair number of full stops to each set and can't always avoid being Mag'd, but I can understand why something like Kartana where The Right Set Wins is perceived as unhealthy overall (CB, timid, The Right Z, scarf). I don't actually feel like there is anything in OU that is in any need of a ban, but if other people think there are questionable entities like Kartana, Magearna, Greninja, Toxapex, or I don't know, Magnezone(??), then let's test it and see where the masses stand!

TL;DR is retest Landorus-I cuz it shouldn't have been quickbanned

 

[Charmflash]

While I do still believe that there are ways for one to not be any more matchup-reliant than in most previous generations, a lot of your points resonate with me, particularly in the teambuilding restraint & creativity department. Nowadays you are pretty much forced to use Pokemon such as Mega-Latias and Gliscor, as they dont just cover a tremendous amount of threats defensively, but also offer solid-good speed control/offensive presence.

I think these are the three main forces that lead to a lot of people feeling this way, in order of priority

1. Kartana, and to a lesser extent Mega-Mawile

I've lumped these two together since they present a similar problem (yet also require different answers). Their sky-high attack is only matched by their phenomenal coverage and both of these Pokemon lack any true counters (ha as if anybody even thinks of counters this way in 2k19). Kartana is the bigger problem child, since it can also hold an item, allowing it to either simply have 700 atk or blow something away via a z-move paired with Swords Dance. It can also sweep holding a Choice Scarf while making use of its ability Beast Boost, and, more recently, also mutated an ability to fit into the category of Pokemon I was talking about in my first paragraph, using a utility set with Leaf Blade / Knock Off / Synthesis / Defog, whose purpose it is to check Ground-types holding Grassium-Z while defogging on them as well as Ferrothorn. Oh did I mention that Kartana is also very fast and physically bulky? Because it is both of those. Another point to be made is that Kartana (Mawile does, too) incentivises the use of Magnezone, who is the definition of a matchup Pokemon, and an argument can be made that it goes as far as being 'uncompetitive'. As for Mega-Mawile, it is arguably an even bigger annoyance offensively, however, it is lacking the speed of Kartana, and its sturdiness is largely dependent on an ability it only gets one time. Moreover, Mawile needs to decide between being truly unstoppable (Elemental sets, Substitute sets, other 4 attack sets including a Fighting-move or Knock Off) while giving up its matchup versus offense and going for a more well-rounded approach with Sucker Punch + SD sets which can accomplish feats suchs as OHKOing offensive Heatran from full HP after Stealth Rock at +2, but make it slightly more manageable defensively. Nevertheless, whichever path Mawile decides to take, it will always require massive attention from various playstyles.

2. Toxapex

Oh boy where do we start. This Pokemon has warped the Sun & Moon Overused metagame since its introduction, and it continues to be the single most important, centralizing, and, at least as far as I'm concerned, best Pokemon to this day. Between Scald, Toxic, Toxic Spikes, and even Baneful Bunker, its ability to spread status is unparalleled. In addition to that, Toxapex is a well-stated wall with excellent defensive typing (3 weaks, 8 resists, Toxic immunity) and access to Haze as well as Recover and Regenerator. This means you cannot chip it easily, you cannot brute-force through it easily and you cannot set up against it. It has gotten to a point where you need to prepare your team defensively against this 'wall', and what I mean by that is you need to have status-immune Pokemon (Gliscor, Reuniclus, Clefable, Alakazam kinda). Unfortunately Toxapex is also the bastion holding the tier together defensively against the armies of savages like Charizard Y, Volcarona, Mega-Scizor, Mega-Mawile (imagine if he didnt have to run Thunder Punch), you name it. Due to this fact I dont think we should or can dispose of him as easily and in the developed (around Toxapex) metagame there are ok countermeasures like the anti-status Pokemon I mentioned or cool lures such as Electrium-Z Rotom or Earth Plate Landorus-Therian.

3. Manaphy

Slapping water-resists on your team is one thing, but Manaphy forces you to run a very select subset of water resists that are able to deal with its fast boosting and regenerative powers, be it by outspeeding it or by having various tricks (such as water immunity + haze/clear smog, unaware..) up their sleeves. In addition to shrinking the versatility of eligible water-resists, that select subset also needs to change their regular moveset, be it to Thunder (Mega-Latias), Clear Smog (Gastrodon) or even Rest (Pyukumuku) etc. , which can lead to worse Pokemon in instances not facing Manaphy.
Besides, Manaphy always comes hand in hand with a(t least one) powerful swift swim user in Mega-Swampert, ready to take on teams trying to out-pace Manaphy.


Overall, the current restraint on teambuilding is enorm and I have yet to fit an abundance of certain non multipurpose 'viable' Pokemon on any team I end up liking. Thus I'm in agreement that we ought to try something and I'd like to voice my support for a Kartana suspect test since I believe he is the elephant in the room we should address first and foremost. Kartana also brings very little to the tier in terms of mandatory utility, and would therefore not destabilize the tier any more than it would free it up. I am currently not 100% certain myself whether or not Kartana needs to actually go, however, I would like for all of us to make this choice together.

 

[Cynara]

I feel like player mentality also contributes to matchup fishing too, not just tiering issues. The current gen mentality to win tour games is to just matchup fish your opponent with a specific build instead of building overall solid teams.

I also do agree yes SM as a generation suffers from matchup issues (this is the case in ORAS too to an extent). I also feel Lower tiers especially suffer a lot from Matchup issues, not just SM Overused and probably moreso in the case of specific tiers, it's a glaring issue that is often overlooked. I do think us (smogon) as a whole need to look at more potential suspects more often or hold more open discussions (i.e threads) just to see how the playerbase feels about a specific issue in a tier, if things arent openly addressed a mutual majority opinion cannt be formed. I'd argue Magearna is probably worth more of a suspect than Kartana right now due to the limited number of checks it has on paper in theory.

 

[Shurtugal]

I agree that SM is unbalanced and has a team builder issue, but the issue is not Kartana. I do not think banning Kartana will fix the larger issue at hand.

I'll just be blunt: Z-Moves are the issue. Not that I want to totally ban them, but it pushes so many Pokemon over the edge. Oftentimes you need to run more than one Pokemon to safely check something (looking at you Magearna, but applies to literally every single offensive Pokemon) in the event it has the Right Z-Move, creating a rather horrible experience if I am honest. Ask yourself: would Kartana be broken without Z-Move? Heck would Pheromosa have been broken without a Z-Move to give it an accurate Focus Blast and a Z-Hyper Beam to blast through Toxapex? Would Zygarde have been an issue without the option to run Z-Outrage/TA to blast through otherwise perfectly safe checks like Tangrowth?

My point with bringing all that up is that the issue with SM in most of it's recent suspects/the tier as a whole is Z-Moves, which create an horrible imbalance in the team builder. Without the strain of Z move, it would be much more possible to build more consistent teams because you would have more team space. Right now you literally have to accept you lose to x or y because there isn't enough space to have 2 checks for everything.

Sadly I have no good solution. I do not wish to remove an entire mechanic, but I wish there was a way to balance it somehow

 

[Tenebricite]

I agree with the idea that we should be open to more suspect tests in USM OU. One of the greatest things about not being bound to a specific set of rules and a specific banlist each year is that the players themselves have the opportunity to explore different options in the meta. Furthermore, Suspect Tests are community events that motivate players to ladder and get involved. Since so many of the aforementioned threats are running around the meta and since the tier has not had a suspect since December of 2018, this may be an ideal time to hold one.

 

[ABR]

Before delving into the balance or brokenness of specific pokemon I'd like to make some more general points and provide clarity from the OU council.

It's always hard to gauge true demand for change as those who wish to alter the status quo will always have more to say than those who want to maintain it, whether it's about suspecting a specific pokemon, nerfing/banning Z-Moves, or anything of the sort. So, aside from a general trust in myself and the council around me, I will always be hesitant to set up a test. I also entirely disagree with the notion that tests are harmless, and that we can have many more because the right outcomes will find themselves. Bans should be exceptions to the base of a tier remaining stable and legitimate, which is jeopardized with overly frequent tests. I don't mean to say that the opinion of the masses is worth nothing, but rather that changes to the status quo should be driven by the council. If the council wishes to change something, then it must request permission from the masses via a suspect test, as it should. This view of tiering and the role of councils may be distasteful to some but the alternative is an entity totally devoid of purpose, so here we are.

Regarding the timeline of it all, if there is going to be a suspect test it won't be for at least 3-4 weeks in order to give ample time to evaluate the metagame through OLT/SSD as well as to avoid interfering with those tournaments. As for what would be tested, I am of the opinion that the only viable candidate is Mawile. The other council members can speak for themselves but as of now that's much more likely than a Kartana, Magearna, or whatever test. I would like to urge everyone involved or interested to consider the overall pacing / flexibility SM OU provides and the ability to out-offense or revenge kill anything that seemingly lacks sufficient defensive counterplay.

My view of Kartana is that all of its sets have similar/overlapping checks/counters and that each set has enough notable flaws to be reasonably dealt with. For starters, legitimately all sets choose from the same pool of 5 moves (leaf smart knock sacred z-giga). Choice band has few totally reliable counters, which are probably limited to Scizor, Tangrowth, and Skarmory, but general pivots can be made with Lando-T, Torn-T, Toxapex, and so on. Even if the defensive aspect doesn't work out, all of Alakazam, Lopunny, Tapu Koko, Greninja, Torn-T, Serperior, Lati@s, Diancie and (scarf) Magnezone can reliably revenge kill. SD Z sets trade immediate power for better sweeping potential, but the same general switch-ins and revenge killers work here. Scarf is hard to revenge kill with raw speed but it is not nearly powerful enough to be an overbearing/broken threat while choice locked.

If I had to say right now I probably would want to keep Mawile in OU. That said, i view it as much more potent of a breaker than Kartana. It has the set-up option of SD + Sucker Punch while also threatening elemental coverage to mess with Toxapex, Gliscor, Scizor, and just about any defensive pokemon in the tier. The proper defensive answer also depends heavily on what set you're facing, and so reliable checks are hard to come by. For example, Heatran and Lando-T are solid switch-ins to SD sets but totally fold to Focus Punch and Ice Punch respectively. Sub Z-Move Magnezone can mostly trap and revenge kill safely but usually something has to be sacrificed prior and sucker can outplay substitute. To mitigate its low speed, Mawile has priority, amazing typing, solid bulk, and intimidate. The defensive answers are somewhat lacking but, like Kartana, it can be revenge killed by a significant amount of offensive pokemon. As I said, I'm not quite convinced enough to test it or ban it but I can overall understand the mindset of viewing this pokemon as an overwhelming offensive presence.

 

[talah]

proxy posting for The Hallows, but i fully echo the post


kartana is absolutely the root of the wider issues in the tier right now. obviously nothing is a guaranteed switch in to kart in the whole game, not just ou, but theres other mons that fit that bill that aren’t broken or even top tier in some cases; kyurem-b for example. it’s important to look at what kartana does in games, but i think the actual issue & what separates it from other breakers with no real counters are the things you are forced to do to compensate for it in the builder, more so than what its doing in games. sure there’s a few things that can pivot in like pex & scarf lando, but if u pivot in on an sd with anything slower or that cant ohko, get ready to lose 1; main point being that these unreliable pivots don’t solve the issue of covering kartana in the builder.

the problem with kart is that there’s literally only 2 things faster than it that can semi reliably switch-in, in fat torn & latias. torn is 1 of the more reliable switch ins but can still only really safely come in once to any set & can just die in 1 if it catches a z or a hit from band with rocks. latias is fucked if it switches in on an sd when kart is at 100 or a scarf knock which 2hkos w rocks, while banded can 2hko with smart or knock & again latias cant ohko it back from full. so you've got those 2 that aren’t close to 100% reliable as the only decent way of checking it offensively, one of which is pretty easily trappable, both of which aren’t really enough alone to be fully safe. this is why it's such a big part of turning sm into such a mu based tier, bc you need to sacrifice so much in the builder to cover all of its sets with barely any tools to beat it offensively. with so many extreme playstyles & threats to account for its completely impossible to make a team & not come out weak to some of them when needing to dedicate so much attention to something as overbearing as kartana.

you might be able to make the case that there’s things that are equally or even more overbearing than kartana from a building standpoint; ash greninja & heatran come to mind as things that require a similar amount of attention. but for me, its important to take into account the things that these mons add to the tier. ash greninja is such a valuable tool to keep offense(especially extreme forms of it) in check, and gives us an extremely effective offensive spiker to stop regens from dominating the tier. heatran is a great rocker & defensive steels are hugely important to keep things like lele, magearna etc. from getting out of hand. in my opinion kartana doesn’t really add anything healthy to the tier apart from being good counterplay to rain. basically, ash & heatran, being the only other mons in ou that compare to kartana with the amount of stress they put on building, add more to the tier than they take away, while the same cant be said for kartana in my opinion.

if you look at the options in the builder defensively, pretty much everything that can sort of switch in with the smallest risk of just dying next turn, are mostly mons that dont make too much progress when they are in; tangrowth, venusaur, celesteela, even bulky volc & zap, as well as skarm to an extent, since they are forced to roost every time for fear of not being able to switch in next time - and thats best case scenario assuming rocks aren’t up. for me, this, & how fast kartana is, is what separates it from similar breakers such as mawile, who i mention bc it has been brought up for a ban instead.

maw is undoubtedly similar to kartana as a disgustingly strong breaker with sd, however, the latter gets much more set up opportunity bc of how fast it is & how many things it forces out, as well as being, albeit only by a little, more consistently able to hold some kind of defensive presence; mawile generally relies on intimidate before evolving for that. granted, maw has sucker punch to make up for its speed but it’s still finding it more difficult to get around the landos, trans, gliscors, zaps, rotoms etc. that check it (& if you're using sucker punch your missing out on coverage). i'd argue that mawiles presence in the tier is healthier than kartanas because mawile is a valuable tool to stop balance (and stall) from becoming overbearing while keeping fat teams in check by forcing them to use proactive ways to check things, since mawile isn’t really possible to stall out with purely passive play & defensive mons, whereas kartana necessitates balance to large extent at the moment bc it doesn’t have as many bad previews as bulky offense does.

(it’s probably also worth noting that kartana gets a free choice band on leaf blade if there’s a bulu in the game on either side.)
#BANKARTANA #SAVEMAWILE

 

[Alumn]

Ban kart = spam Hawlucha

 

[Charmflash]

I've collected so many thoughts while reading everybody's responses, that I need to make another post addressing some of the points being made to facilitate productive discussion where we don't talk past each other.

I agree that SM is unbalanced and has a team builder issue, but the issue is not Kartana. I do not think banning Kartana will fix the larger issue at hand.

I'll just be blunt: Z-Moves are the issue. Not that I want to totally ban them, but it pushes so many Pokemon over the edge. Oftentimes you need to run more than one Pokemon to safely check something (looking at you Magearna, but applies to literally every single offensive Pokemon) in the event it has the Right Z-Move, creating a rather horrible experience if I am honest. Ask yourself: would Kartana be broken without Z-Move? Heck would Pheromosa have been broken without a Z-Move to give it an accurate Focus Blast and a Z-Hyper Beam to blast through Toxapex? Would Zygarde have been an issue without the option to run Z-Outrage/TA to blast through otherwise perfectly safe checks like Tangrowth?

My point with bringing all that up is that the issue with SM in most of it's recent suspects/the tier as a whole is Z-Moves, which create an horrible imbalance in the team builder. Without the strain of Z move, it would be much more possible to build more consistent teams because you would have more team space. Right now you literally have to accept you lose to x or y because there isn't enough space to have 2 checks for everything.

While I get where you're coming from I dont think that one necessarily excludes the other. Regarding z-moves, I believe that as a whole they add a very good element to the game, opening up a myriad of creative solutions to a variety of problems. For example defensive uses of z-moves where Toxapex can deal massive damage to SD Gliscor / Magma Heatran or Tornadus-Therian can guarantee the OHKO on SD SpD Tapu Bulu seem very healthy and desirable to me. Some other examples would include z-Heal Bell, z-Toxic to get past Taunt etc. There are, however, certain Pokemon, or even certain moves where z-moves feel unfair, or quite frankly 'bullshit'.

From my point of view, we need to be more open to complex bans, especially when it comes to z-moves. There are currently two specific instances involving them that make me scratch my head:

- Using Z to get past certain drawbacks of moves whilst making them even stronger: Hyper Beam / Giga Impact, Outrage-esque moves, Draco Meteor-esque moves, Freeze Shock / Solar Beam-esque moves.
- One-Two punch usage of boost into z-move vs the defensive counter, oftentimes using one of the moves mentioned in point one. Tail Glow Manaphy, Swords Dance Kartana etc.

Therefore I could see benefit in these getting looked at:
- Tail Glow (SD? Nasty Plot?) + z-move
- Hyper Beam / Giga Impact + z-move
- Draco Meteor-esque + z-move
- Outrage-esque + z-move
- Freeze Shock-esque + z-move

I am not sure if anything ought to be done at all, and I'm probably in the camp of z-moves being fine as they are, but complex bans should definitely be on the table for issues like these.

Choice band has few totally reliable counters, which are probably limited to Scizor, Tangrowth, and Skarmory, but general pivots can be made with Lando-T, Torn-T, Toxapex, and so on.

I believe CB to be the main offender so I'm going to address this point in particular since I dont think the countermeasures you listed are particularly reliable.

- Mega-Scizor: Mixed defensive takes around 40 from Sacred Sword, meaning that just one double on Stealth Rock can put it in 2HKO range the next time around (MegaZor also cant hold Leftovers so the chip is particularly bad). Forced to Roost. Can get trapped by Magnezone, and not just by Scarf Magnezone like Kartana, it also gets trapped by Choice Specs and Z.
- Skarmory: Also gets trapped by Magnezone, also by every set, just even worse. In case it is holding Shed Shell, Kartana can remove it via Knock Off. Overall a relatively niche Pokemon.
- Tangrowth: I'm assuming we are talking about physically defensive here, since AV gets clean 2HKOd by Smart Strike and would only be in the pivot category you mentioned afterwards (it also really doesnt appreciate Knock Off). Granted, pdef Tang is a pretty good countermeasure to CB Kartana, however, not only is it a very niche set, it also gets its Helmet removed & Smart Strike is still able to pressure it with the assistance of Stealth Rock as most of them dont run Synthesis and some may not even have HP Fire.

calcs regarding the pivots you mentioned:

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 264-312 (72.9 - 86.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 80 Def Landorus-Therian: 189-223 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 80 Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 424-501 (111.2 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 295-348 (97 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

All three of these are at risk of immediately dying vs Rocks + Smart Strike / Leaf Blade crit (the high crit rate absolutely needs to be taken into consideration when talking about Kartana's viability imo) and they do not appreciate the damage otherwise, either. Even Knock Off does massive damage to them while removing their Item, which can be very important.

- Magnezone: I know that you havent mentioned him any further than as one of the Pokemon that can outspeed Kartana, however, youve been more vocal about Zone beating Kartana on Discord so I wanted to highlight the importance of the fact that Scarf Magnezone exclusively beats Kartana. Not Z, not Specs. This is important because Scarf Magnezone is a very poor choice in multiple regards, for example if fails to reliably beat any of Ferrothorn (Protect + Leech Seed), Celesteela, Mega-Scizor (it can put it in Kartana Sacred Sword range, but Scizor can U-turn out and potentially counter-trap Zone via HP Ground Ditto so you wont get another shot) and even Mega-Mawile, especially Sucker-Punch variants. Moreover, Scarf Magnezone doesnt take on the role of a fully functional Choice Scarf user so you'll need another one, in addition to already running a very weak Pokemon with little defensive utility.

I would be more sympathetic towards arguments such as 'Mons dont have to necessarily be broken if they have no counters', if Kartana didnt also outspeed Pokemon like Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, the Kyurems and the entirety of base 100 like Mew, Medi and the Charizards (who get 2HKOd by Knock Off without Stealth Rock). Its fantastic speed (coupled with the Atk it has as well as its movepool in Knock Off, SD + Giga) is one of the two primary perks (the other one being its ability to hold an Item like CB or Z and the possibility of Kartana being Choice Scarf whilst holding one of the other two items) it has over Mawile, who gets outsped by the likes of Gliscor and Heatran for crying out loud, and you failed to address that in any capacity.

sure there’s a few things that can pivot in like pex & scarf lando, but if u pivot in on an sd with anything slower or that cant ohko, get ready to lose 1; main point being that these unreliable pivots don’t solve the issue of covering kartana in the builder.

the problem with kart is that there’s literally only 2 things faster than it that can semi reliably switch-in, in fat torn & latias.

how fast kartana is, is what separates it from similar breakers such as mawile

maw is undoubtedly similar to kartana as a disgustingly strong breaker with sd, however, the latter gets much more set up opportunity bc of how fast it is & how many things it forces out, as well as being, albeit only by a little, more consistently able to hold some kind of defensive presence; mawile generally relies on intimidate before evolving for that.

i'd argue that mawiles presence in the tier is healthier than kartanas

Retweeting the best arguments. I agree with your post in general, especially your point of Mawile having great offensive counterplay when not using Sucker Punch + SD due to how slow it is.

latias is fucked if it switches in on an sd when kart is at 100 or a scarf knock which 2hkos w rocks, while banded can 2hko with smart or knock & again latias cant ohko it back from full.

Latias can run HP Fire or HP Fighting to OHKO Kart from full without SpA investment. Both moves have a lot of other utility & I believe that you should run one of them on most MLatias sets in todays meta.

one of which is pretty easily trappable

Latias has a bunch of shenanigans it can do to make trapping it a hard task. The most straight-forward one would be HP Fighting but even Twave + Roost or Reflect Type are a pain so I wouldnt use 'easily' at all here

with so many extreme playstyles & threats to account for its completely impossible to make a team & not come out weak to some of them when needing to dedicate so much attention to something as overbearing as kartana.

Its not impossible, it just limits the amount of ways to achieve that to a satisfactory degree. Mega-Latias and Tornadus-Therian for example would be great Pokemon regardless of whether Kartana is a thing or not, but having to use them on every team is, in my opinion, not desirable.

Kartana doesn’t really add anything healthy to the tier apart from being good counterplay to rain. basically, ash & heatran, being the only other mons in ou that compare to kartana with the amount of stress they put on building, add more to the tier than they take away, while the same cant be said for kartana in my opinion.

I mostly agree with this when comparing it to Toxapex or Magearna, but it is worth mentioning that a supportive set has emerged recently. This set can Defog on Ferrothorn, z-Garchomp (lacking Fire Fang) and z-Landorus-Therian while having access to Knock Off and countering a good amount of dangerous physical Pokemon such as Gliscor and Mega-Gyarados. The reason Heatran & Ash Greninja shouldnt be suspected is because they simply do not put the same amount of stress on building due to either being a bit on the slower side (Heatran), or just having enough satisfactory counterplay (Ash Greninja).

All in all, I still believe that Kartana is the greatest headache across all fronts, but I'm not opposed to Mega-Mawile being tested instead. There is certainly an argument to be made for its non-SD+Sucker sets being over the top to handle defensively, and there is also an argument to be made that the SD+Sucker sets are pretty much Kartana 2.0

 

[McMeghan]

Lot of support for a Kart/Mawile suspect it seems. Would like the other OUTLs to vouch in so we can know if something is going to happen sooner or later. Only ABR talked about his opinion on Kartana and Mawile, so I think it's fair to ask where the other members of the council stand on these issues, unless ABR is the only one to think and decide for everyone (?). Would love to see some overall activity in OU.

Edit in: what about surveying the Tournament player base to know how they feel about the meta and if they'd like something to happen. A very democratic approach that has worked in old gens for precedent.

I will always believe that Suspects are the life of Smogon, especially if they're warranted, so I don't want this to be slowly forgotten.

 

[blank]

bumping this Finchinator Eo Ut Mortus TDK bro fist ABR

generation ends soon and it's been almost a month since the last post in this thread. i think if the ball gets rolling on a potential suspect now, it'd be good timing. kart ruins this fucking tier (among many other dumbass threats), but even if you guys disagree, leaving it up to a suspect test is fair game imo.

i think the public opinion is clear on this one, so please do SOMETHING... even if it is just giving your opinions as to why there is no suspect test. otherwise just make ABR the only council member since he's the only one who ever actively engages in these discussions, lol.

edit: a post snake survey like mcm suggested (maybe also include OLT qualifiers) is a great way to approach this imo.

 

[z0mOG]

I'm curious to know if other people take issue with The Invalidator, AKA ditto

| 32 | Ditto | 18 | 6.47% | 77.78% |

This thing has been running rampant and with a pretty fantastic winrate to prove it (stat from snake OU, also has a 63% wr in STour OU). Ditto feels to me like it is able to almost singehandedly invalidate most offense and most stall builds entirely. I dont think I specifically need to state why since it's so cut and clear what ditto does to both. I'd be happy to push for a suspect test if I'm not alone in wanting to see how OU looks again without it.

 

[Finchinator]

Over the course of the last six months, I have personally called for a few suspects: Magearna over the late Spring/early Summer and Mega-Mawile in recent months. Some have agreed and some have disagreed. The OU Council has been engaging in periodic discussion on the metagame and potential suspects, but we have not agreed upon a suspect at any point.

While I echo the general sentiment of this thread that SM OU teambuilding requires a lot of threat coverage, I do not necessarily agree with the supposed correlation between that perspective and needing to ban something. My support of banning Magearna and then Mega-Mawile was strictly due to the lack of counterplay they had within the confines of the metagame. At one point, Shift Gear Magearna felt unmanageable unless you were running Chansey or a utility Magearna of your own. In the current metagame, I feel that there is virtually no reliable counterplay to Mega-Mawile.

I do not personally believe that Kartana is banworthy, but I would not outright oppose a suspect. I do not personally believe that Ditto is banworthy and I would not support a suspect at this point in time. If you wish to discuss these with me at more length, feel free to respond or shoot me a message and I would be happy to talk about it with anyone.

 

[bro fist]

As obviously the most outspoken member of the council, I'd like to offer some of my thoughts. I personally believe that SM OU has been in a really good spot ever since Zygarde's ban. Metagame trends have come and gone, stuff has risen to the top, stuff has dropped. We're in a spot right now where the game is pretty well centered around a select few threats, which I believe is ideal.

We've had discussions within the council over the past few months on whether or not a change should be made to satisfy the public outcry. Even though the general consensus has been that nothing specifically stood out as broken or overwhelming, I personally would not mind seeing Mawile or even Kartana tested; community engagement via suspect tests is one of the most fun things on this site (even if the mega threads aren't), and it's always nice to see how people adapt to any potential changes that do happen. In my opinion, Mawile is the closest thing to broken that we have. I do not think Kart is as crazy as others do, but I can't blame them for feeling how they feel, so I won't shame the mentality. I will shame calling for a Ditto suspect though. People have found creative ways to fit Ditto on different teams to combat many playstyles, and it has shown to be a great tool in doing so. I would say that it is very far from being something that completely invalidates any playstyle, it just makes people have to think twice before brainlessly loading up x or y cheese, which I'm all for. This is the kind of adaptation to the metagame that should be welcomed, and I don't believe it to be unhealthy at all. Tournament win rates and whatever else convenient statistics can be thrown around to "strengthen" arguments, but those almost never paint the entire picture.

Just my two cents though.

 

[Aurella]

Personally I feel very confused by the fact no one even seems to agree on which mon should be tested. Each side is conceding to the other's suspect request, not because they fundamentally agree that the mon is broken, problematic, and an unhealthy metagame presence (as the other side so fervently believes) - but because suspect tests are "fun", "count towards tc", and are "good community engagement" (??????)

Those things might be true, but those reasons alone shouldn't even come close to being the crutch through which suspects tests are initiated on (IMO). Couldn't agree more with what ABR has said on this. The whole thing made me question if we even need a suspect test in the first place (perhaps some in one camp secretly feel that supporting the other's suspect request will help trojan in their own afterwards). This is especially ironic as the banning of one side's mon would undeniably give power to the other mon within the meta, yet fsr these 2 mons are being spoken of and treated as if they are completely uninteractive with one another.

(the above is speaking to conversations from outside of this thread too)

As for my personal thoughts on the 3 mons brought up so far:

Mawile: If you really want to overpower Sableye and Lati stalls through banning this then go ahead lol. Personally I don't see a problem with Mawile (enough to ban it) and I think The Hallows elucidated perfectly on the balance it brings to the tier's playstyles. The presence of Mawile this year (and even last year) helped push diversity within stall and balance archetypes -- all of which have been accepted in their own right even outside of checking Mawile (EX: Mega-Aggron balance/stall, Venusaur-Mega, Slowbro-Mega and so on). It isn't the same as when Zygarde was around and you HAD to have phys def Tangrowth on every team; Mawile has pressured fat builds into diversifying itself as an archetype, and I would be sad to see those advancements lost or reduced in usefulness and usage by the absence of Mawile. As for the other MUs, ABR touched on those pretty well.

Kartana: Really don't want to see this going either tbh, while the pro ban Kartana arguments are at least more convincing to myself, it still reads off as the apolocalyptic "SG Mage Syndrome" from some months back. I just question that if its offensive sets are so unbelievably bearing to the metagame then why would players even be taking the leasure of devising and using its utility set to a point that it's considered a meta staple now. It just doesn't seem to add up.

Ditto: Too soon to even be thinking of testing this. I completely disagree with bro fist on the sentiment that using Ditto is more creative and thoughtful over "brainlessly" loading certain playstyles and strategies. Slapping one mon onto your team with the full confidence of it checking several playstyles isn't more creative or thoughtful than cohesively dedicating 6 mons towards an entirely offensive or defensive win path.

I entirely disagree with the notion that tests are harmless, and that we can have many more because the right outcomes will find themselves. Bans should be exceptions to the base of a tier remaining stable and legitimate, which is jeopardized with overly frequent tests. I don't mean to say that the opinion of the masses is worth nothing, but rather that changes to the status quo should be driven by the council. If the council wishes to change something, then it must request permission from the masses via a suspect test, as it should. This view of tiering and the role of councils may be distasteful to some but the alternative is an entity totally devoid of purpose, so here we are.

Also, since Z0mmy :3 brought up about stats, I thought I'd help chart the usage of these mons throughout the year. I'm working with someone on a custom usage stat script which I will be using for the 2019 master statistics thread leading into the new year -- this means I can get new kinds of metagame statistics than I could before. If there's a data metric you feel would help elucidate a mon's "brokeness" or just any new stats you'd like to see outside of the metrics that are already available then lmk.

* Curated from SPL X, OST XV Playoffs, ST 27 Playoffs, WCoP 19', Snake 3 (Week 7), OLT VI (Semis)

2019 SM OU Master Statistics (Includes Tiebreaks)

SM OU

Leads / Combos / Moves + Teammates

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Landorus-Therian   |  615 |  48.96% |  50.81% |
| 2    | Tornadus-Therian   |  392 |  31.21% |  50.77% |
| 3    | Magearna           |  359 |  28.58% |  50.97% |
| 4    | Greninja           |  324 |  25.80% |  47.53% |
| 5    | Heatran            |  318 |  25.32% |  51.42% |
| 6    | Toxapex            |  288 |  22.93% |  46.01% |
| 7    | Kartana            |  245 |  19.51% |  49.80% |
| 8    | Rotom-Wash         |  236 |  18.79% |  53.39% |
| 9    | Tapu Fini          |  224 |  17.83% |  48.21% |
| 10   | Ferrothorn         |  220 |  17.52% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Garchomp           |  208 |  16.56% |  44.23% |
| 12   | Gliscor            |  204 |  16.24% |  49.02% |
| 13   | Tyranitar          |  199 |  15.84% |  43.72% |
| 14   | Tapu Bulu          |  169 |  13.46% |  53.85% |
| 15   | Celesteela         |  153 |  12.18% |  54.90% |
| 16   | Latias             |  145 |  11.54% |  47.24% |
| 17   | Excadrill          |  143 |  11.39% |  44.76% |
| 18   | Scizor             |  141 |  11.23% |  48.94% |
| 19   | Tangrowth          |  139 |  11.07% |  44.96% |
| 20   | Mawile             |  136 |  10.83% |  52.21% |
| 21   | Zapdos             |  118 |   9.39% |  46.19% |
| 22   | Clefable           |  115 |   9.16% |  54.35% |
| 23   | Magnezone          |  114 |   9.08% |  45.61% |
| 24   | Tapu Koko          |  107 |   8.52% |  51.40% |
| 25   | Tapu Lele          |  104 |   8.28% |  46.15% |
| 26   | Alakazam           |   92 |   7.32% |  44.57% |
| 27   | Victini            |   90 |   7.17% |  54.44% |
| 28   | Jirachi            |   88 |   7.01% |  48.86% |
| 29   | Medicham           |   87 |   6.93% |  50.57% |
| 30   | Serperior          |   83 |   6.61% |  46.99% |
| 31   | Chansey            |   81 |   6.45% |  51.23% |
| 32   | Kommo-o            |   80 |   6.37% |  57.50% |
| 32   | Lopunny            |   80 |   6.37% |  52.50% |
| 34   | Charizard          |   77 |   6.13% |  51.95% |
| 34   | Weavile            |   77 |   6.13% |  37.66% |
| 36   | Volcarona          |   74 |   5.89% |  63.51% |
| 37   | Swampert           |   69 |   5.49% |  49.28% |
| 38   | Pelipper           |   68 |   5.41% |  48.53% |
| 39   | Gastrodon          |   59 |   4.70% |  55.93% |
| 40   | Diancie            |   56 |   4.46% |  58.93% |
| 41   | Latios             |   55 |   4.38% |  52.73% |
| 42   | Reuniclus          |   54 |   4.30% |  54.63% |
| 43   | Kyurem-Black       |   45 |   3.58% |  46.67% |
| 43   | Skarmory           |   45 |   3.58% |  40.00% |
| 45   | Ditto              |   44 |   3.50% |  72.73% |
| 46   | Gyarados           |   40 |   3.18% |  52.50% |
| 47   | Manaphy            |   38 |   3.03% |  52.63% |
| 48   | Kyurem             |   37 |   2.95% |  54.05% |
| 48   | Mew                |   37 |   2.95% |  52.70% |
| 48   | Slowbro            |   37 |   2.95% |  51.35% |
| 51   | Hawlucha           |   32 |   2.55% |  62.50% |
| 52   | Venusaur           |   31 |   2.47% |  45.16% |
| 53   | Hoopa-Unbound      |   28 |   2.23% |  42.86% |
| 54   | Amoonguss          |   26 |   2.07% |  57.69% |
| 54   | Hydreigon          |   26 |   2.07% |  53.85% |
| 56   | Azumarill          |   22 |   1.75% |  63.64% |
| 57   | Pinsir             |   20 |   1.59% |  45.00% |
| 58   | Keldeo             |   19 |   1.51% |  68.42% |
| 58   | Sableye            |   19 |   1.51% |  63.16% |
| 60   | Seismitoad         |   17 |   1.35% |  70.59% |
| 61   | Heracross          |   16 |   1.27% |  50.00% |
| 62   | Hippowdon          |   15 |   1.19% |  53.33% |
| 62   | Thundurus-Therian  |   15 |   1.19% |  53.33% |
| 64   | Suicune            |   14 |   1.11% |  50.00% |
| 65   | Bisharp            |   13 |   1.04% |  69.23% |
| 66   | Gallade            |   10 |   0.80% |  60.00% |
| 67   | Pyukumuku          |    9 |   0.72% |  88.89% |
| 67   | Alomomola          |    9 |   0.72% |  44.44% |
| 67   | Kingdra            |    9 |   0.72% |  33.33% |
| 67   | Blacephalon        |    9 |   0.72% |  22.22% |
| 71   | Ribombee           |    7 |   0.56% |  71.43% |
| 71   | Dragonite          |    7 |   0.56% |  57.14% |
| 71   | Crawdaunt          |    7 |   0.56% |  28.57% |
| 74   | Mamoswine          |    6 |   0.48% |  66.67% |
| 74   | Volcanion          |    6 |   0.48% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Zeraora            |    6 |   0.48% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Mimikyu            |    6 |   0.48% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Aggron             |    6 |   0.48% |  41.67% |
| 74   | Krookodile         |    6 |   0.48% |  16.67% |
| 80   | Manectric          |    5 |   0.40% |  80.00% |
| 80   | Diggersby          |    5 |   0.40% |  80.00% |
| 80   | Ninetales-Alola    |    5 |   0.40% |  20.00% |
| 83   | Mantine            |    4 |   0.32% | 100.00% |
| 83   | Araquanid          |    4 |   0.32% |  75.00% |
| 83   | Altaria            |    4 |   0.32% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Sharpedo           |    4 |   0.32% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Breloom            |    4 |   0.32% |  25.00% |
| 83   | Scolipede          |    4 |   0.32% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Starmie            |    3 |   0.24% |  66.67% |
| 89   | Quagsire           |    3 |   0.24% |  50.00% |
| 89   | Beedrill           |    3 |   0.24% |  33.33% |
| 89   | Steelix            |    3 |   0.24% |  33.33% |
| 89   | Shedinja           |    3 |   0.24% |  33.33% |
| 89   | Muk-Alola          |    3 |   0.24% |   0.00% |
| 95   | Avalugg            |    2 |   0.16% | 100.00% |
| 95   | Salamence          |    2 |   0.16% | 100.00% |
| 95   | Rotom-Heat         |    2 |   0.16% | 100.00% |
| 95   | Glalie             |    2 |   0.16% | 100.00% |
| 95   | Nidoking           |    2 |   0.16% |  50.00% |
| 95   | Snorlax            |    2 |   0.16% |  50.00% |
| 95   | Talonflame         |    2 |   0.16% |  50.00% |
| 95   | Xurkitree          |    2 |   0.16% |  50.00% |
| 95   | Slowking           |    2 |   0.16% |  50.00% |
| 95   | Moltres            |    2 |   0.16% |  50.00% |
| 95   | Zygarde-10%        |    2 |   0.16% |  50.00% |
| 95   | Terrakion          |    2 |   0.16% |   0.00% |
| 95   | Golem-Alola        |    2 |   0.16% |   0.00% |
| 95   | Cresselia          |    2 |   0.16% |   0.00% |
| 95   | Marowak-Alola      |    2 |   0.16% |   0.00% |
| 95   | Buzzwole           |    2 |   0.16% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Tyrantrum          |    1 |   0.08% | 100.00% |
| 111  | Corsola            |    1 |   0.08% | 100.00% |
| 111  | Mienshao           |    1 |   0.08% | 100.00% |
| 111  | Politoed           |    1 |   0.08% | 100.00% |
| 111  | Tentacruel         |    1 |   0.08% | 100.00% |
| 111  | Camerupt           |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Persian-Alola      |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Banette            |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Uxie               |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Raikou             |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Butterfree         |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Druddigon          |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Absol              |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Poliwrath          |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Venomoth           |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Nihilego           |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Cloyster           |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Shaymin            |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Flygon             |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Thundurus          |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Chimecho           |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Meloetta           |    1 |   0.08% |   0.00% |

*Always logged the tiebreaks separately to see which mons teams would bring at their most desperate

2019 SM OU Tiebreak Statistics

SM OU

Leads / Combos / Moves + Teammates

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tornadus-Therian   |   12 |  46.15% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Landorus-Therian   |   11 |  42.31% |  45.45% |
| 3    | Greninja           |    7 |  26.92% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Heatran            |    7 |  26.92% |  28.57% |
| 3    | Toxapex            |    7 |  26.92% |  28.57% |
| 6    | Ferrothorn         |    6 |  23.08% |  83.33% |
| 6    | Gliscor            |    6 |  23.08% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Magearna           |    6 |  23.08% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Tapu Fini          |    6 |  23.08% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Chansey            |    5 |  19.23% |  80.00% |
| 10   | Magnezone          |    5 |  19.23% |  40.00% |
| 12   | Tyranitar          |    4 |  15.38% |  25.00% |
| 12   | Latias             |    4 |  15.38% |  25.00% |
| 14   | Tapu Bulu          |    3 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Mawile             |    3 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Swampert           |    3 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Pelipper           |    3 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Gastrodon          |    3 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Clefable           |    3 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Zapdos             |    3 |  11.54% |  33.33% |
| 14   | Kartana            |    3 |  11.54% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Scizor             |    2 |   7.69% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Ditto              |    2 |   7.69% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Latios             |    2 |   7.69% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Victini            |    2 |   7.69% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Garchomp           |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Tangrowth          |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Jirachi            |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Diancie            |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Charizard          |    2 |   7.69% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Excadrill          |    2 |   7.69% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Serperior          |    2 |   7.69% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Celesteela         |    2 |   7.69% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Weavile            |    2 |   7.69% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Azumarill          |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Mamoswine          |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Sableye            |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Mew                |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Aggron             |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Reuniclus          |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Volcarona          |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 35   | Muk-Alola          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Suicune            |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Breloom            |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Sharpedo           |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Lopunny            |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Manaphy            |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Tapu Koko          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Salamence          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Alomomola          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Amoonguss          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Alakazam           |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Skarmory           |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |

Stats that were strictly curated from poffs shouldn't be paid much mind, but they were included here for audit purposes. If someone wants to make an infograph out of this that would be goat.

Mawile: [Rank, Mon, Use, Usage %, Win%]

Master: | 20 | Mawile | 136 | 10.83% | 52.21% |
Tiebreak: |14 | Mawile | 3 | 11.54% | 66.67% |

SPL X: | 21 | Mawile | 18 | 9.18% | 66.67% |
OST XV Poffs: | 17 | Mawile | 7 | 10.61% | 71.43% |
ST 27 Poffs: | 16 | Mawile | 3 | 11.54% | 33.33% |
ST 27 Tours + Poffs: | 16 | Mawile | 393 | 11.28% | 48.09% |
WCoP 19': | 21 | Mawile | 29 | 10.00% | 51.72% |
OLT VI: | 14 | Mawile | 53 | 13.25% | 49.06% |
Snake 3: | 21 | Mawile | 26 | 9.35% | 46.15% |
ST 28: | 16 | Mawile | 232 | 12.73% | 49.57% |

Kartana: [Rank, Mon, Use, Usage %, Win%]

Master: | 7 | Kartana | 245 | 19.51% | 49.80% |
Tiebreak: | 14 | Kartana | 3 | 11.54% | 33.33% |


SPL X: | 11 | Kartana | 33 | 16.84% | 57.58% |
OST XV Poffs: | 6 | Kartana | 14 | 21.21% | 57.14% |
ST 27 Poffs: | 9 | Kartana | 5 | 19.23% | 60.00% |
ST 27 Tours + Poffs: | 9 | Kartana | 624 | 17.91% | 50.96% |
WCoP 19': | 7 | Kartana | 64 | 22.07% | 42.19% |
OLT VI: | 10 | Kartana | 70 | 17.50% | 54.29% |
Snake 3: | 8 | Kartana | 59 | 21.22% | 45.76% |
ST 28: | 8 | Kartana | 382 | 20.97% | 50.65% |

Ditto: [Rank, Mon, Use, Usage %, Win%]

Master: | 45 | Ditto| 44 | 3.50% | 72.73% |
Tiebreak: | 22 | Ditto | 2 | 7.69% | 100.00% |


SPL X: | 41 | Ditto | 5 | 2.55% | 60.00% |
OST XV Poffs: | 55 | Ditto | 1 | 1.52% | 0.00% |
ST 27 Poffs: 0 Usage
ST 27 Tours + Poffs: | 66 | Ditto | 40 | 1.15% | 42.50% |
WCoP 19': | 39 | Ditto | 11 | 3.79% | 72.73% |
OLT VI: | 53 | Ditto | 9 | 2.25% | 77.78% |
Snake 3: | 32 | Ditto | 18 | 6.47% | 77.78% |
ST 28: | 37 | Ditto | 94 | 5.16% | 63.30% |

 

[Charmflash]

Since Dittos been brought up as a potential issue Id like to share some of my thoughts on that as well, as I have a little bit of experience using that Pokemon myself.

The way I see it is that Ditto is an answer to the overly diverse threats of the Overused metagame. The closest comparison I can think of is Landorus-Therian (mainly thinking of defensive / scarfed sets here, or a mix of the two), who isn't overly oppressive on his own, but compresses various necessary roles your team needs. It also fulfills the role of a Choice Scarf user, which is required (arguable, there are replacements like Mega-Lop, Unaware, strong priority yada yada yada) on any competitive team not fishing for matchup, and good scarfers have been scarce in OU.

As for its winrate, I believe that a big part of it comes from the fact that it is still severely underrated. It is the same rank as Alomomola and Mamoswine despite being a top 1? 2? scarfer, which is as I mentioned before, a role any reliable competitive team needs to fill one way or another. A second reason would be that both its Snake Draft and especially Smogon Tour winrates are largely dependent on one or maybe two singular teams that have been crafted very carefully so comparing its good winrate in 10-20 appearances on mostly 2 teams to the Landorus-Therian one doesnt tell the whole story.

Overall, if the problems we are trying to solve are the top threats being overly oppressive / versatile, and matchup feeling like rock paper scissors, then getting rid of Ditto would be shooting ourselves in the foot as far as I can tell.

 

[PDC]

turns out his metagame has finally devolved into a motley of overpowered trash and their respective desperate attempts to prevent that (ditto). go fucking figure

seriously, after playing smou for a few weeks in ssd (to not so bad success) i have come to realize why this metagame is so stupidly fucked up -- we've finally adhered to a philosophy of "broken checking broken" being ok and siding with generation essentialism instead of actively acting as tier leaders. mcmgehan was right -- what were we thinking with allowing things like z-moves to be allowed within our game? z-moves represent just the next in-line succession of an ever-increasing attempt to power creep this game by gamefreak, and sadly we keep letting these attempts end up successful, to our own expense. for a metagame which has so much ungodly broken options, this is probably the most complacent a council we have ever had. i know i'm known as the guy who typically vouches for an all-authoritarian council in which the masses have no opinion, but jesus christ guys, do something instead of cycling through the same routine of waiting for the next broken trend to come along.

when i was on the council early-gen we made the same mistake. we took months to ban pheromosa for the sake of exploring whether or not the metagame could adapt to it properly, leaving it available for merely the entire of spl 8. then, after recognizing that this thing was ridiculously broken, we decided to do the same exact thing for the next 3 years. it took us how long to get a zygarde suspect test going? and now, as the generation nears its end, we're running out of time to fix it during its heyday once again, leaving it open to predatory suspects in the future over god knows what. so, in that case, no more of this lackadaisical tiering. the OU council is not the supreme court; your objective is not to legislate reactionary when challenged, but to actively survey the metagame and decide if there is a problem at hand.

speaking of problems, the biggest one of all seems to be z-moves and the essentialist ideology we all (including me) seem to have adopted. z-moves, unlike megas in gen 6/7, are unpredictable, ridiculously offsetting to checks/counter alignments, and turn pokemon into a continuous guessing game rather than an actual fight. hate to say it, but i am seriously tired of creativity becoming a product of slapping an overpowered move on something and annihilating it with an unexpected z-move. that level of speed in a game such as pokemon seems ridiculous too me. hell, z-moves are probably half the problem with mons such as magearna / kartana / whatever other broken threat we seem to bring up. z-moves enable a ridiculous level of unpredictability that shatters any held standard of what a check/counter should be. they make this generation volatile and unstable, and ultimately as we've been seeing recently, incredibly lopsided in what functions at any given time. playing is reduced to a guessing game.

"For better or worse, I've come to accept Z-Moves as a fundamental part of this generation. I won't speak for other tiers but I can elaborate on how I view them in OU." - ABR

well good fucking job. for better or worse? isn't the purpose of tiering supposed to avoid the "worse?" these are things we can control, and this is exactly what we should try to avoid in tiering right here. fundamentalism in what pokemon should be / how we should approach it. oh yeah, we don't want to "ignore a major component of a generation because gamefreak decided that this was an essential part of how we should play the game!" ridiculous. if we cared about fundamentals to a generation, then we wouldn't have clauses, bans, sleep mods, or actively attempt to tier across generations both proactively and retroactively. newsflash to the council: we aren't slaves to what gamefreak decides in how we should play the game. also, another thing: z0mog, wanting to keep z-moves and insane set-up sweepers in the metagame while simultaneously desiring to ban ditto is contradictory. once again, we try and attack symptoms of the problem indiscriminately, yet refuse to touch the core issue. maybe 2-3 years from now we'll have a SM revisionist movement where we attempt to ban z-moves / whatever else, but for now, we're too blinded by what we've decided is necessary to still consider us playing 'pokemon.' we don't respect the design of the game nearly as much as we pretend to, given how vastly we've altered how we played it over the years. stop pretending, do something.

 

[Myzozoa]

I only see one post itt about toxapex but it's the most broken thing in the meta imo. Surprise Z-moves and hiding your teams underground where no one can see your z rotom-w wouldnt even be needed if it wasn't for toxapex imo, not that they're enough to actually check it since it just switches out, survives, or even bunkers the z-move.

Kartana is just such a good pokemon at what it does that 'the next best thing' isn't even close to being as good (for example: blacephelon is slower, sr weak and may rely on inaccurate or otherwise unoptimal moves and is much riskier to switch in, mawile is predictable and may be managable, unlike Kartana, since u know it isn't scarfed and they often have to rely on sucker punch).

Z-moves might seem like a good thing to ban because you know the meta is impossible to build for and z-moves seem like a big part of the meta that can explain the unpredictability players experience, however the actual substance of z-moves as items is not clearly better than other items to the extent that the situational tech possibilities of z-moves (Z-rocks, z set up moves) should be banned out of play, I think.

Pokemon is in fact, probably, an extended guessing game, or at least fits that description, so I'm not sure why z-moves change that fundamental aspect. As I am a top paranoid user that has been complaining about this metagame for a while, I would almost say the talk of z-moves is a distraction from the actual centralizing figures of the metagame (tapu bulu, geninja ash, tapu koko, rain, and most centrally of all toxapex) that become significant restrictions in teambuilding (for example, one can't really build a good team that doesn't have an electric immune imo, and we all know how easy it is to try build a team only to find out it can't break toxapex in many situations).

I view banning z-moves as a step to be looked at only if banning pokemon doesn't work. Mainly because I feel like it isn't clear that z-moves restrict users in teambuilding or in battles, and can actually be healthy for competitiveness. It has been my philosophy since gen 6 that you should want to ban pokemon not moves, since clicking moves is mostly skill, but who wins the broken pokemon vs broken pokemon speed tie isn't.

I could be dead wrong about z-moves and we'll know sooner or later, there is definitely a sense in which z-moves add more luck to be made by creating turns with huge risk-reward dynamics, but also if pokemon was a game where the person who just 'out-predicted' their opponent on the most turns always won, I would actually be good at this tier maybe, but there is a lot more long-term thinking and team building skill in the game than that.

Basically: I do not at this time think that z-moves are responsible for there being too many broken or strong pokemon in this tier such that team selection becomes rockpaperscissors. I could be wrong, these are just my thoughts as someone who has struggled with this tier more than other tiers in the past.