Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

[Cuddly]

I'm about to say something very controversial- why don't we ban Gothitelle over Shadow Tag? Wobbuffet has never been a real problem, and with dynamax and everything new, he sometimes doesn't live a single hit. Gothorita is forced to hold eviolite, which means it's easy to knock, it can't choice scarf trick you, and overall it's not as usefull as Gothitelle. I think it's just too long of Pokemon becomming completely unusable because people decided they don't want to deal with Shadow Tag. There are only a few Pokemon that get successfully trapped/really don't want to hold a shed shell, which is why I don't see this as a problem. Toxapex is completely fine with holding a shed shell, Corviknight has U-Turn so he doesn't have to, and Gothitelle can never hurt a dark type.

Ferrothorn hates gothitelle, but the way I see it, we lost the most successful Ferrothorn counter in Magnezone, and now you can either lose to Gothitelle OR have a choice to ignore it with shed shell as well, which is a big thing because Gothitelle can't threat anything it's not trying to trap. Clefable can run a little speed to outspeed Gothitelle, as well as try and unaware + setup its way out of it. Gothitelle also doesn't like the Hyper Offense meta that's going on right now, so I say if anything we suspect Gothitelle over Shadow Tag, because it's that one mon that is truly a problem, not the entire ability. I'll take everything back if I can see someone using Gothorita and Wobbuffet successfully and consistantly, but I don't see it happening.

Wobbuffet has been banned before in every gen since Stag has existed or at least Stag having been banned.
Wobbuffet can also be used to the same, although weaker, effect as Gothitelle with Encore+Trapping.
Trap an unsuspecting non-ghost type, encore into using a move, if it uses a Move one of your sweepers can tank, switch out, and if not, just kill it.
This strategy would be extremely useful this Gen too since Dynamaxing is very hard to stop during and after it is used.

 

[Plasmaster09]

Why Cursola has absurdly good special stats, I don't know.
But it does, so here's my very, very strange Cursola set.

Cursola @ Eject Button
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Grudge
- Whirlpool
- Endure
- Curse

It has great special attack, but why not forget that entirely? Let's go for a status nightmare.
Edit: Made some changes to make it EVEN MORE OF A NIGHTMARE. Thank Darvin for alerting me to the fact that CURSOLA HAS A TRAPPING MOVE OH GOD.

 

[Hogg]

Yeah, re: Shadow Tag, if anything it has gotten significantly more toxic this gen. I’ve been laddering with a team pretty similar to ABR’s (different Pex/Corv sets and Umbreon instead of Grimmsnarl) and it’s completely ridiculous. With no suit to trap it, no Z crystals or mega stones to block Trick and new toys like Cosmic Power + Stored Power, it’s kind of obscene how much work it puts in against a ton of key ‘mons like Pex, Clef or Ferro. In a lot of games it can successfully do this multiple times, tricking an enemy, Cosmic Powering and Resting until they run out of PP, then tricking back just before they faint. Against things like Uturn Corviknight/Mandi or Whirlwind Hippo it can’t typically set up, but it still is guaranteed to cripple them for the rest of the game with Trick (and can often still do work even without a Scarf). Dynamax mechs help it as well, giving it a defensive boost and two turns of protect for when it might otherwise get worn down too fast to get a Rest off (and turning unboosted Stored Power into a reasonably strong psychic attack, handy if you just need to revenge something like Kommo). Again, even in poor matchups, it consistently at least cripples something with Trick; in more extreme cases it straight wins vs half the team entirely on its own strengths.

Just from toying around with this team on my phone at work I’m currently 24-1 and in the top 50 on the ladder, and it’s definitely not because Umbreon is so good. I think fully half those games or more were won on the strength of Shadow Tag. I did manage to save a few replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011970662 - Particularly notable because Goth literally comes in three times and all three times traps, tricks, stalls out and gets its Scarf back.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011931048
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011986730
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011952205
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011942824
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011935143

Bunch of other assorted replays, Goth successfully traps and beats at least one key mon in every game.

I tend to be really conservative about bans on abilities rather than ‘mons, but Shadow Tag has proven time and time again to be absolutely ridiculous, and everything I’ve seen shows that to be more pronounced in gen 8, not less. I’ve even run some test games with Gothorita and while the decreased bulk means there are a few matchups it struggles with, it still very reliably beats most of the same targets, including almost every commonly used hazard setter. (I haven’t tried Wobb yet, in fairness.)

TL;DR: Shadow Tag is at least as broken as it was in previous gens, and I don’t see any reason to wait around before banning it.

 

[lordkira]

Since ST is unbanned, how about the baton pass clause? I do think baton pass with speed boost and more will be too much (hate going against baton pass teams/mons in general) but are there any merits to retesting it by any chance?

edit: ST is really difficult to go up against. It's such a nightamare.

 

[Olijolly]

Seeing Corsola with a legitimate moment of OU success makes me happy. I think spinblocking will be more relevant with the Defog distribution more limited and its synergy with the cancer stall core is really good.

I am having a hard time seeing Dynamax ever being balanced. It's a really absurd game mechanic and I think we could ban ridiculous stuff like Hawlucha and Barraskewda all day and still find abusers in the tier that make the mechanic uncompetitive. Trapping really needs to go too, I think we have learnt this one the hard way.

Agreed. Corsola is like the new clefable this gen. It has some nice stat spread with great utility movepool.

Since ST is unbanned, how about the baton pass clause? I do think baton pass with speed boost and more will be too much (hate going against baton pass teams/mons in general) but are there any merits to retesting it by any chance?

edit: ST is really difficult to go up against. It's such a nightamare.

Just out of curiosity, which pokemons would be the best BP abuser if bp clause was removed? Dragapult as a passer?

 

[Plasmaster09]

Just out of curiosity, which pokemons would be the best BP abuser if bp clause was removed? Dragapult as a passer?

Dragapult and Doubles Alcremie.
Decorate + Baton Pass = ouch.

Yeah, re: Shadow Tag, if anything it has gotten significantly more toxic this gen. I’ve been laddering with a team pretty similar to ABR’s (different Pex/Corv sets and Umbreon instead of Grimmsnarl) and it’s completely ridiculous. With no suit to trap it, no Z crystals or mega stones to block Trick and new toys like Cosmic Power + Stored Power, it’s kind of obscene how much work it puts in against a ton of key ‘mons like Pex, Clef or Ferro. In a lot of games it can successfully do this multiple times, tricking an enemy, Cosmic Powering and Resting until they run out of PP, then tricking back just before they faint. Against things like Uturn Corviknight/Mandi or Whirlwind Hippo it can’t typically set up, but it still is guaranteed to cripple them for the rest of the game with Trick (and can often still do work even without a Scarf). Dynamax mechs help it as well, giving it a defensive boost and two turns of protect for when it might otherwise get worn down too fast to get a Rest off (and turning unboosted Stored Power into a reasonably strong psychic attack, handy if you just need to revenge something like Kommo). Again, even in poor matchups, it consistently at least cripples something with Trick; in more extreme cases it straight wins vs half the team entirely on its own strengths.

Just from toying around with this team on my phone at work I’m currently 24-1 and in the top 50 on the ladder, and it’s definitely not because Umbreon is so good. I think fully half those games or more were won on the strength of Shadow Tag. I did manage to save a few replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011970662 - Particularly notable because Goth literally comes in three times and all three times traps, tricks, stalls out and gets its Scarf back.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011931048
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011986730
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011952205
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011942824
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011935143

Bunch of other assorted replays, Goth successfully traps and beats at least one key mon in every game.

I tend to be really conservative about bans on abilities rather than ‘mons, but Shadow Tag has proven time and time again to be absolutely ridiculous, and everything I’ve seen shows that to be more pronounced in gen 8, not less. I’ve even run some test games with Gothorita and while the decreased bulk means there are a few matchups it struggles with, it still very reliably beats most of the same targets, including almost every commonly used hazard setter. (I haven’t tried Wobb yet, in fairness.)

TL;DR: Shadow Tag is at least as broken as it was in previous gens, and I don’t see any reason to wait around before banning it.

Yeah, Shadow Tag is still broken, and the fact that Gengar STILL has a trap via G-Max isn't helping matters.
At least Cursola doesn't get any trapping moves.
Oh god. I just opened a can of Hackmons worms by saying that, didn't I.
Edit: It gets Whirlpool. Why didn't I think of that? (Probably because I forgot multi-turn binding moves also usually trap.)
Thank god Whirlpool ends after 5-7 turns or something.

 

[Darvin]

At least Cursola doesn't get any trapping moves.
Oh god. I just opened a can of Hackmons worms by saying that, didn't I.

Cursola does get Whirlpool. This isn't (just) a Hackmons issue, this is a legit set.

 

[lordkira]

Agreed. Corsola is like the new clefable this gen. It has some nice stat spread with great utility movepool.



Just out of curiosity, which pokemons would be the best BP abuser if bp clause was removed? Dragapult as a passer?

I'd assume dragapult would be amongst the best offensive BP passer with DD...as well as be pretty broken.
However, you never know until it's actually tested.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Hey boys. I'm still bottom of the barrel ladder as shit but have a team, hopefully you can make better use of it than I can lol

if i catch anyone not using these lit new menu sprites after this post im going sicko mode
This offense is built around an extremely underrated threat: Durant. Band First Impression does big huge damage, and the coverage minimizes switch-ins. Combined with Max Superpower for Attack snowballing and you got yourself a vicious choice attacker. Ferrothorn does Ferro things: Switches into stuff, sets hazards, the works. Gyarados is a broken mon and needs to be banned, but until then he's here as the primary sweeper. Gardevoir is the Scarfer of choice, taking care of faster builds and manhandling Ferropex cores, although I am considering slashing out Indeedee for the role. Conkeldurr is the Defogger that can keep hitself healthy with Drain Punch and hit Ghosts with Payback (no Knock Off yet rip). Finally, Rotom-Wash is just a very solid pivot that can also check Toxapex and Sand Rush Excadrill. Overall I'm having fun with this team in the handful of games I've played. Maybe I can actually get to the 1300s this time!

 

[Dreadfury]

I've been experimenting with this team on the ladder recently and I'm a pretty huge fan of it. It revolves around the typical hazard stacking balance core of G!Corsola+Pex+Ferrothorn but with a little twist: I opted to run CM+Hex on Galarian Corsola for this team so it can eventually wall both ends of the spectrum and capitalize on the absolute absurdity of Toxic Spikes. Reuniclus also benefits from the TSpikes support, Dugtrio traps opposing Pex pretty hard (although I could use that PP Stall cancer Gothitelle set in its place), and Ditto is there as some anti-Gyarados insurance.

It pretty much abuses every single broken aspect of this generation courtesy of Ditto effectively making it so you literally cannot afford to Dynamax against it with a boosting sweeper ever.

EDIT: 8 SpDef on G!Corsola.

 

[Unknown Warrior]

Cursola @ Shed Shell

Is this a meme or something?
Why shed shell on a ghost type?

 

[Taptricity]

Really enjoying how funky and strange this new meta is. Some sets I’d like to show off:

Cursola @ Choice Specs
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 88 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Scald / Power Gem / any filler lol this 4th slot can carry anything

Literally the set I showcased in my Pokemon thread but Cursola is hella slept on so I’ll show it here. What differentiates our friend here from its preevolution is its crazy high Special Attack that makes it a slow and powerful wallbreaker. Shadow Ball and Ice Beam is solid enough coverage and Hydro Pump completes it to KO those pesky Tyranitars after some chip or Scald to fish for burns and make your Defense somewhat manageable. The Speed EVs are to outspeed Toxapex with the rest maximizing its bulk. Cursola plays as a Special Crawdaunt. Requires pivoting to get it in safely but once in it dismantles the Ferro/Pex/Corsola cores quickly.

Eiscue @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf / Salac Berry
Ability: Ice Face
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Icicle Crash
- Zen Headbutt
- Reversal / Substitute

Eiscue’s got Mimikyu levels of complexity. Its movepool is absolute shit and stats are mediocre but hey its got a broken ability and Belly Drum so here’s a fun Dynamax cleaner. So how Ice Face works is that it’s just like Disguise except it only blocks physical attacks and the ability resets in Hail. Considering the large divide between physical and special attackers that are currently being played in the tier Eiscue gets opportunities to set up. They break you, you set up and then Dynamax, use Icicle Crash set up Hail and reset your Ice Face. Zen Headbutt is purely for Toxapex and the occasional Fighting type that could get in your way and Reversal can work outside of Dynamax for some Steel-types and Coalossal but its mostly for niche Intimidate scenarios that make you restore your attack with Max Knuckle. Choice Scarf is deactivated once your dynamaxed so the extra Speed boost hits some landmarks but requires you to quickly win against the opponent’s team. Sub Salac also is plausable if you have removal to back you up. Reversal could be used over Zen on this set but most Steel-types this meta have an Ice neutrality so powering through with your STAB shouldn’t be complicated.

Anyway really have some other quick opinions:

-Is this even an argument nuke Shadow Tag lmao
-Grimmsnarl is surprisingly strong both offensively and defensively. Dark/Fairy checking Aegislash, Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, etc.
-Speaking of Hydreigon this mon is fucking disgusting with Nasty Plot you’re lucky its speed tier is so awkward.
-Crawdaunt mashes buttons and shit dies.
-Toxtricity has some potential with Throat Spray shenanigans and Toxapex is everywhere which it easily switches into and exploits the fuck out of. Also good switch in against Corviknight.
-Unaware Clefable is the real blanket check.
-Use Cursola more
-My winrate consists of Ditto reverse sweeps
-Kinda neutral on the state of Dynamaxing on whether banning specific mons or the mechanic itself is the optimal choice for the metagame.

And that’s everything. Have a good day.

 

[Ema Skye]

Re:Shadow Tag - Are there any mons that could beat Goth if they maxed on it? You could trap Clef but it could just max and beat Goth (since Max ignores Trick).

I’ve had a similar problem with Duggy. I try to trap something like Pex only for it to Max and obliterate me with Max Water because I can’t KO anymore.

 

[Hogg]

Clef is a bit annoying because the fairy max move sets misty terrain, which blocks Rest, but you can always dyna yourself for increased bulk and stall out their dyna turns with max guard. But even against Clef you've still likely done your job by tricking it, and other targets like Pex and Ferro don't scare you even when dynamaxed. Also, forcing the opponent to blow their dynamax in a situation like that is its own advantage, since it means they can't try to dyna later to break your defensive core.

 

[Christo]

I have laddered a lot so far and was #1 on the ladder for a portion of the weekend. I want to share a couple sets I've tested. I am not going to address Shadow Tag because its pretty clear its getting banned.

Gyarados @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
- Power Whip

Outside of Shadow tag, I have found Gyarados to be the most threatening Pokémon and best Dynamax user. I believe this set is the most effective. Heavy-Duty Boots lets Gyara comfortably come in at 100% and start Dragon Dancing. It's natural bulk allows it to set up a DD on almost the entire tier, and Power Whip lets it get past Rotom Wash. Moxie can be used with little drawback, because without the fear of taking 25% from Stealth Rock, Intimidate is not needed to live neutral attacks. What tips Gyarados over the edge compared to other mons using Dynamax is the +1 Speed from Dynamax Bounce. This speed boost combined with Moxie and Gyarados's natural defense + typing allow it to get to +2 Attack +2 Speed effortlessly. Also, you do not even need to set up a DD to sweep with Gyarados. All you have to do is use Dynamax Bounce and get +1 Speed and +1 Attack from Moxie to start sweeping. Electric moves are the only way to take down a Dynamax'd Gyara, and none of the few Electrics are reliable counters. I believe Gyarados is overpowered and is the next pokemon to consider banning after Shadow Tag

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 244 HP / 48 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Trick
- Thunder Wave

In order to combat Gyarados without relying on defensive Toxapex or Ferrothorn, I started to use this set on Hyper Offense. This set outspeeds Gyara at +1 and knocks it out 100% of the time with 48 SpA investment. The max HP is useful because it can be disguised as a defensive rotom, so the Scarf is not obvious. Apart from checking gyarados, this set also reliably deals with Sand Rush Excadrill and pivots into Scarf/Band Darmanitan. Also, Rotom freely Volt Switches on all teams that do not have a Seismitoad. Trick is a great move this gen, since Z moves and Megas can not block getting tricked. This means Rotom gets a free Trick against defensive teams. Thunder Wave is also useful for emergency checks to sweepers on offense, but Defog or something else could work depending on the team.

 

[Guard]

Metagame impression

I have played a good amount of ladder games these few days, and topped the ladder yesterday somewhere around midnight with GothStall (not a hard thing to do btw), so I believe I am informed enough to do one of these posts.

Shadow Tag has been the subject of discussion for roughly a decade now and almost each and every time we have come to the consensus that it is a broken mechanic that severely restricts teambuilding and is extremely frustrating and downright boring to play against (the Goth family being the main culprit of the 'boring part'). I believe it is very evident that the ability is the issue here; it propelled Gothorita, a middle-stage evolution, into staple status in early-mid USM Ubers, a testament to how disproportionately good Shadow Tag as an ability is. Shadow Tag retains its broken mechanic in gen VIII, meaning the situation remains the same, if not being worse due to the notable movepool buffs Gothitelle received. Cosmic Power + Stored Power does not merely trap the entire defensive metagame bar G-Corsola, I also had resounding success using the set as a late-game wincon in addition to trapping at least two passive mons most of the time. Ergo, Shadow Tag should be quickbanned.


Contrary to Shadow Tag, I believe we should give Dugtrio a chance in the metagame for now. Arena Trap has its flaws compared to Shadow Tag (no effect on levitating mons, countertrapped by Ditto) and Dugtrio, let's be honest, is a much worse trap-abuser than Gothitelle and Wobuffet. Dugtrio has proved in several iterations of several metagames in the past that it is not an overbearing presence. Perhaps Arena Trap will turn out to be broken in the long run, but in the current metagame, I do not see it as an element that necessarily warrants a quickban.

Ditto is an absolute must on a big number of team compositions in the current meta, due to its irreplaceable Dynamax-checking prowess; it is astounding how often Ditto ends up countercleaning the foes team if you preserve your Dynamax. Due to the extremely turbulent state right now where there are several abominably strong breaker-cleaners lurking in a huge majority of teams, Ditto provides many defensive builds with adequate breathing room due to deterring setup/Dynamax, which makes cores like FerroPexDitto very difficult to play around for an offensive team, if played carefully.

Veil and Screens Offense are in my eyes the most successful offensive approaches to this metagame, and are represented by Alola Tales and Grimmsnarl respectively. Grimmsnarl in particular is a notable setter due to its access to Prankster Thunder Wave and Taunt, hence rarely being a momentum sink. It would have appreciated a slow U-turn/Parting Shot, but still executes its role very well.

Hands down the four most consistent Dynamaxers currently. I honestly believe Gyarados, Hawlucha and Excadrill deserve to be quickbanned or at least prevented from Dynamaxing. Barraskewda is easier to pick off with priority, and Scarfers outside of rain, but still makes for a terrifying presence when Dynamaxed due to its access to Max Geyser, Max Knuckle and Max Mindstorm, all of which make it progressively harder to deal with.

These four are looking to be the defensive staples of this generation. Ferrothorn likes sapping away at the ginormous HP stats of Dynamaxers with Leech Seed/Protect, Toxapex is as good as ever, Corviknight is probably the best defogger for Balance teams and pairs up very nicely with the aforementioned two plus Ditto. Galarian Corsola is one of the beefiest and most annoying physical tanks due to its access to WoW, Strength Sap and Cursed Body, frequently stalling out the likes of even something as ridiculous as Dynamax Gyarados.

Reuniclus is one of the most slept on mons currently. It has had its fair share of success in gen 7, but takes it to an entirely different level this gen with Reversal Dugtrio support and its access to Stored Power, making Double Dance impossible to stop after its checks are removed/poisoned. Without a doubt the most potent wincon that is available right now.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

I think everyone is being way too reductive about shadow tag and leaning on its presence in earlier generations. "Oh, it's noncompetitive" is a baseless statement and not an actual argument.

People just don't like playing vs stall and having their stuff trapped. No surprise losing to stall when 90% of teams have maybe one answer to it. Does trapping actually limit teambuilding in comparison to other major threats? It is overpowered? Maybe for Goth line you could make the case it is with Trick, but I do not see that applying to Wobuffett or Arena Trap users. Pursuit isn't even a thing, so don't talk to me about Tickle Wob.

Last gen smogon rushed tests to rid the meta of trapping, and in their haste left a bunch of broken stuff behind that just ran free (and still does today). Non stall builds have to prepare for all the other ridiculous stuff that's around (all due to Dynamax??) which leaves them weak to stall. The common use of Ditto should be pretty telling in this regard. The order of bans has an impact; let's not make the same mistake again.

end of OP==============
LOL too late. Get ready for Gen7 Deja Vu: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/shadow-tag-has-been-banned-from-gen-8-ou.3656443/

And Dreadfury yeah, it was because, oh, Z-Moves let it beat too much stuff. There's nothing to suggest trapping is too strong this gen on anything outside of Gothielle. Trapping gives stall an offensive out; people don't like that. For offensive, trapping is only used to remove the counters to broken threats. When that's the case, ban the broken thing that only has one check. M-Meta was still broken after dugtrio got banned.

It's moot; stop quoting me

 

[NightosphereKing]

Dynamaxing, oh boy.
I'd like propose something that might be very unpopular, but I think it needs to be laid on the table sooner rather than later.
Rather than outright banning Dynamaxing or leaving it in for suspect after suspect, or worse, trying to make a compromise that is awkward or downright impossible to play on cart, we should quickban dynamaxing from OU (henceforth Galar OU) and create a Power Spot OU where Dynamaxing is allowed. I know what you're thinking, "but what about National OU, that's 3 OU tiers!", but hear me out.

I'd firstly like to consider the consequences of a Dynamax suspect for both outcomes. If Dynamaxing is banned this early in the metagame, many strategies and team compositions will go largely unexplored by the Showdown community. Dynamaxing has only been around for 4 days now, and although this is rather speculative, given the precedent set with the removal of Megas and Z Moves this gen, this generation might be the only time we get to use this before it's gone. Banning Dynamax also doesn't guarantee that any of the current abusers (particularly Gyarados) will be much less healthy for the meta given the much smaller pool of available pokemon, and it's plausible we could end up with a similar meta than if we had left Dynamax in, but without an interesting and flexible mechanic that could enable creative strategies. There's a running sentiment in this thead that this meta is too offensive and Dynamaxing makes it too hard to run previously popular archetypes such as Balanced and Bulky Offense. If the meta were to become polarised towards favouring heavily offensive or defensive teams (after early Gyara/lucha/etc. bans), I don't think this necessarily shows that the meta is overcentralised or unbalanced provided it isn't skewed heavily towards one side.

On the other hand, if Dynamaxing isn't banned, there's a few obvious abusers that we already know about but it's possible we could get stuck in a game of cat and mouse where suspect tests are always playing catch up to the next most useful abuser of Dynamaxing. I think this is the biggest fear with Dynamax, that we'll remove a significant proportion of the potential metagame for the same reason as the suspects that came before it. It's also worth considering that if Dynamax was left unbanned but became more obviously a problem later on, that the outcomes of most previous suspect tests would be thrown into question and we could end up more or less back in the same place as we would have been if we had just banned it to begin with.

I think that splitting the tiers to observe metagame developments in each before making a concrete choice would be a smarter decision, whilst we've all gotten a brief feel for what the Power Spot OU meta would look like, it's hard to say exactly what the Galar OU meta would look like (beyond the obvious speculation of less Dittos) and committing to one without giving the other a little time to develop seems rash. The primary benefit of doing this, besides not committing to a suspect that would step on anyone's toes, is that as both metagames develop side by side, innovative sets and strategies in each can probably be applied to the other. I would propose that the two tiers should both run a Shadow Tag suspect simultaneously given the precedent set by previous gens and Gothitelle only getting more nasty tools as it a much less weighty decision than deciding to remove Dynamax and will allow some time for the metagame to establish itself. Lastly, though it's sort of besides the point, I find it very likely that Galar OU or Power Spot OU (depending on Dynamax suspect results) would end up being a popular suggestion for an OM format anyway and the benefits of implementing the two sooner outweigh the active playerbase split IMO.

I'd also like to state that waiting for Showdown's Dynamax features to be 100% game accurate and bug free before calling for quickbans is a really good idea, it's possible changes to Showdown's mechanics will bring new things to light.

 

[Dreadfury]

Last gen smogon rushed tests to rid the meta of trapping, and in their haste left a bunch of broken stuff behind that just ran free (and still does today).

Apologies for the one-liner, but you do realize how much Dugtrio restricted teambuilding last gen, right? Gothitelle (and, in old generations, Mega Gengar) could do that to an even more alarming degree to the point where they straight-up don't let you play the game.

Broken checking broken is not an argument for something to remain, especially this early in the meta.

 

[EternalDream]

Something I wanna ask, most people are of the consensus that Dmax should be banned, or its at least a very prevalent opinion.

But what about Gmax specifically? Most of the Gmax mons aren't mons people really use often (Gengar notwithstanding) - when's the last time you've seen a Butterfree or Lapras?

Perhaps it would be possible to give them a fair trial, as it makes them essentially the same as Megas : a very predictable mon you can work around.

 

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

I think everyone is being way too reductive about shadow tag and leaning on its presence in earlier generations. "Oh, it's noncompetitive" is a baseless statement and not an actual argument.

People just don't like playing vs stall and having their stuff trapped. No surprise losing to stall when 90% of teams have maybe one answer to it. Does trapping actually limit teambuilding in comparison to other major threats? It is overpowered? Maybe for Goth line you could make the case it is with Trick, but I do not see that applying to Wobuffett or Arena Trap users. Pursuit isn't even a thing, so don't talk to me about Tickle Wob.

Last gen smogon rushed tests to rid the meta of trapping, and in their haste left a bunch of broken stuff behind that just ran free (and still does today). Non stall builds have to prepare for all the other ridiculous stuff that's around (all due to Dynamax??) which leaves them weak to stall. The common use of Ditto should be pretty telling in this regard. The order of bans has an impact; let's not make the same mistake again.

LOL too late. Get ready for Gen7 Deja Vu: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/shadow-tag-has-been-banned-from-gen-8-ou.3656443/

And Dreadfury yeah, it was because, oh, Z-Moves let it beat too much stuff. There's nothing to suggest trapping is too strong this gen on anything outside of Gothielle. Trapping gives stall an offensive out; people don't like that. For offensive, trapping is only used to remove the counters to broken threats. When that's the case, ban the broken thing that only has one check. M-Meta was still broken after dugtrio got banned.

The problem with trapping is there's LITERALLY no counterplay once a mon is trapped, if it can't beat the trapper. Stopping any sort of counterplay entirely is unhealthy and noncompetitive. It's a free kill in the right matchups, which is entirely frustrating. You can't blame it on a bad play. At least with Magnet Pull, there's literally only one type at risk, so you just avoid playing the one or two mons that care about Magnezone until it's gone, or use it to lure Magnezone in. It's a LOT harder to do that with Goth, and even with Duggy and Wob because they can trap a vast majority of the mons in the game. Goth in particular does it WAY too well.

 

[Finchinator]

Shadow Tag is now banned from generation 8 Overused!

 

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

Something I wanna ask, most people are of the consensus that Dmax should be banned, or its at least a very prevalent opinion.

But what about Gmax specifically? Most of the Gmax mons aren't mons people really use often (Gengar notwithstanding) - when's the last time you've seen a Butterfree or Lapras?

Perhaps it would be possible to give them a fair trial, as it makes them essentially the same as Megas : a very predictable mon you can work around.

GMax is waaaaaaay more controllable than DMax as it's limited to specific mons like Megas are. It's not a good mechanic still, but it's controllable and can be controlled to fit the meta's current state. GMax Gengar does what Mega Gengar did almost as well and needs to go specifically, but otherwise most are actually worse than regular DMax anyway.

 

[658Greninja]

Webs has been mostly niche during Gen 6 and 7, and I want to say for the record that Webs HO is being slept on rn. We have more web users and the the two spiders are way better this gen.

Functions as a solid web user and check to Sand Rush Drill (non-Rock Slide variants) and Barra. It also threatens Spin Drill. Loses to Corv tho unless it gets a DFSE drop from Liquidation.

Best web users rn. Threatens Pex and Corv while setting webs up. It also threatens Rain and Gyarados with Electric/Bug/Grass coverage.

Its also worth noting this gen gained alot of mons that abuse webs.

Galarian-Darm is already a massive threat that OHKOs/2HKOs nearly the entire meta with a Choice Band, but now let it also outrun the entire meta with webs up.

Dracozolt benefits its Bolt Beak being able to nuke things more often with webs up, plus providing web teams with a Dynados (Gyarados) check is nothing to scoff at.

Hydra and Kiss going from underrated wallbreakers to absolute monsters with webs up. Dynamax Togekiss could also check Lucha for web teams.

Double Dance Aegislash is a huge threat in Web teams now being able to outpace more of the meta after a boost. Its also spinblocks which is also worth mentioning.

There are many variations to it but here is one of the teams

Webs

Araquanid @ Splash Plate
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Lunge

Mimikyu @ Leftovers
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak

Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Punch
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
- U-turn

Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Tomb

Hydreigon @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Taunt/Roost/Flash Cannon

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Dazzling Gleam/Heal Bell
- Nasty Plot

Araquanid is self explanatory. Mimikyu spinblocks and also checks Lucha. Darm cleans and wallbreaks. Excadrill spins, and sets rocks. Hydra crushes Ferro/Pex/Coral/Corv cores and can utilize Flash Cannon for Unaware Clef, Taunt for preventing Defog and preventing setup, or Roost for longevity. Togekiss deals with Defog Conk and does the same thing as Hydreigon except more annoying, and Ditto revenges Gyarados and Barra. Webs could potentially be an actual part of the metagame if it is further explored.

 

[Cuddly]

Something I wanna ask, most people are of the consensus that Dmax should be banned, or its at least a very prevalent opinion.

But what about Gmax specifically? Most of the Gmax mons aren't mons people really use often (Gengar notwithstanding) - when's the last time you've seen a Butterfree or Lapras?

Perhaps it would be possible to give them a fair trial, as it makes them essentially the same as Megas : a very predictable mon you can work around.

Gigantamaxing is unironically balanced because of the exclusivity.
What pushes Max moves over the edge for me is
-You can always use your Dynamax at the best situation if you hadn’t used it
and
-The extreme snowballing you can do from the secondary effects+still having a item (which although doesn’t boost Max moves, it still means you have a usable item afterwards)
G-max moves being on specific Pokemon means you can tell which Pokemon you will Gigantamax (like with Megas) and being exclusive means that they would need to be out in the field, which isn’t always the best situation. And aside from G-Max Chi Strike and maybe G-Max Resonance, you can’t really snowball anything.