Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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D IN YOUR A

Banned deucer.
Hello.

Nice to meet you all. Funny metagame we have so far isn't it just? Dynamaxing, new Pokemon, suspects tests. So much unpredictability as to how it'll all settle. It's alright though. I'd like to share some wisdom I've acquired in my many games. Utilising rain a lot as it's so good. Lots of Toxapex/Ferrothorn/Clefable and the like running around which can give a lot of rain sweepers a lot of hassle. That's not fun to me. I wanted to find something to stick on my rain team to smash them. Pave the way for the big rain sweepers in my team. Ergo, I came up with this to use on my rain team:

1575834232671.png


Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt

Think of it like a Generation 5 rain Volcarona. You might want to tweak some stuff. The EVs perhaps. A move. It's still gonna function the same. Use it on rain to bop the typical Pokemon that give your rain abusers trouble. You'll thank me later.

Lovely to meet you all. Looking forward to meeting your acquaintance further.

Kind regards,
D IN YOUR A
 
In this post, I'd like to talk about some defensive cores in the current metagame. If you've been playing and building lately, I'm sure you've seen these everywhere. [...]
I just realized something about Jordys post and my success on the ladder with Goodra: It feels like it has a niche in OU as an all-around good Pokemon with wall-breaking capabilities or as a tank thanks to its special coverage, its special bulk and grass immunity:



Goodra @ Life Orb OR @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 104 HP / 252 SpA / 152 Spe (can be optimized, but it is this way to guarantee outspeeding Corviknight. Full Speed to outspeed Dracovish?)
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Thunderbolt

252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 406-478 (115.3 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 348-411 (87 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 253-300 (83.2 - 98.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 286-338 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
For whomever thinks Mandibuzz is a weakling:
252+ SpA Life Orb Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 187-221 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
this isn't satisfying at all:
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 262-309 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

My posted set obvs needs some tweaking, but currently I value its ability to block Ferrothorn leech seed/grass moves in general far more compared to the superior speed of Hydreigon. It also isn't crippled by Fairy moves as much. Of course I won't deny that Hydreigon is a top-tier threat. Just posting about it because it helped me against the type of teams Jordy posted.
 
I keep seeing people mentioning Glalie, regarding Moody being broken, but not so much Octillery.

Is Octillery just as problematic as Glalie or is Glalie its own beast?

Because unless Moody is making Octillery just as much of a problem, isn’t the standard course of action to ban Glalie *not* Moody?
 

Astra

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I keep seeing people mentioning Glalie, regarding Moody being broken, but not so much Octillery.

Is Octillery just as problematic as Glalie or is Glalie its own beast?

Because unless Moody is making Octillery just as much of a problem, isn’t the standard course of action to ban Glalie *not* Moody?
Glalie has better coverage than Octillery with the one move they use on their Moody sets. Specifically, Freeze-Dry allows Glalie to target Water-types such as Seismitoad and Toxapex super effectively, whereas Octillery would struggle do as such with Scald, even with Moody boosts.
 
Glalie has better coverage than Octillery with the one move they use on their Moody sets. Specifically, Freeze-Dry allows Glalie to target Water-types such as Seismitoad and Toxapex super effectively, whereas Octillery would struggle do as such with Scald, even with Moody boosts.
Octillery also lacks Disable, so it can't prevent anyone from destroying sub on the turn it can't Protect, whittling down its health much quicker (where Glalie can Disable-stall for Leftovers HP)

So yeah, I agree - if any ban is made, it should be to Glalie, not Moody.
 
60472BB1-EAAC-44EF-8045-F9A599334B61.gif

Glaceon might not be trash this generation. I believe it even has a niche in the tier.

Glaceon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Ice Body
EVs: 132 HP / 252 SpA / 124 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Icy Wind
- Shadow Ball

124 Speed evs are for uninvested Mandibuzz. Icy Wind is used for faster matchups like Gyarados, and Drill. Shadow Ball hFreeze Dry was a huge buff to its movepool, letting it break past Washtom and Pex. Its bulk is good enough to get in on bulky stuff and 2HKO/OHKO most of the

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 160-189 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 356-422 (117.1 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 136-160 (45.3 - 53.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Glaceon: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 211-249 (58.4 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As for Moody, it needs a suspect after dynamaxing. Moody being unable to boost Evasion does not change the uncompetitive nature of the ability. Considering how ridiculous Glalie can get if it manages to get a sub and a speed boost is unimaginable.
 

Baloor

Tigers Management
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Just finished getting reqs with nothing but moody spam, and I have to say, this shit is incredibly unhealthy. Every turn a moody mon is in forces a 50/50. I think everyone agrees that Glalie is broken so I'm not going to comment on that. However, after a week of spamming the same team, I've come to the conclusion that Octillery is also very unhealthy. Its role is a tad different than Glalie's, acting as a more "defensive moody sweeper" than Glalie. There's been countless battles where the opponent underestimates it's ability to live a certain move (for example anything Scarf Darmintan throws at it) and then subs up and does the brain dead tect sub bs, which takes out about half of the other team. People also seem to think ferro checks this thing but it acts as nothing but set up bait. Octillery is very good at acting as a "Pre-Boss" to Glalie, typically removing most of Glalie's checks that would slow it from setting up. I'm not sure how Octillery would fair in an environment without Glalie, however, the point of this post its to stop overlooking the fucking octopus.

:ditto::octillery::glalie::togekiss::grimmsnarl::excadrill:

This is the team I got reqs with, absolute cancer. ditto + moody spammers + lead exca is enough to overwhelm most the tier. Decided togekiss would be a fun mon to add extra aids, then I added grimmsnarl to slow down the other team and provide screens to help toge set up. Screens also is beneficial for the moody mons to get a couple free turns of set up. I didn't save any of the good replays, but its not like theres much that needs to been shown anyway (and is any game with this cancer a good game?). Braindead building and braindead playing = fun time.

I'm not proud of myself for this.
 
Imagine if Zacian's Intrepid Sword boosted its Attack one stage every turn rather than just when it enters battle. That might as well be Moody in a nutshell, since it's a net gain of +1 to a stat every turn. None of the Moody users may be Zacian, but at least the latter is in Ubers where it belongs. I'd absolutely be in favor of a Moody suspect, but honestly, we shouldn't even have to do one because it never should have been unbanned in the first place.

On a different note, what kind of monster did I create when I agreed to do this thing's analysis?? This is approximately the fifth time I've ripped apart 4-5 mons on someone else's team using it. Not broken, but don't sleep on it. (Skip to turn 21 to see the Morpekarnage.)
 
Imagine if Zacian's Intrepid Sword boosted its Attack one stage every turn rather than just when it enters battle. That might as well be Moody in a nutshell, since it's a net gain of +1 to a stat every turn. None of the Moody users may be Zacian, but at least the latter is in Ubers where it belongs. I'd absolutely be in favor of a Moody suspect, but honestly, we shouldn't even have to do one because it never should have been unbanned in the first place.
Words can't quite describe just how stupid this is. You do realize that boosts scale to be better with higher base stats, right? We're not talking about Zacian's 170 base attack. We're talking about Glalie. Base 80 spa Glalie. Can't afford to run any SpA investment because without spe and HP investment he's as ineffectual as it gets Glalie. I'm sorry, but where exactly do you get off?

It's honestly incredible just how much misinformation and gross oversimplification/leaps of logic swim around in this thread between mod posts.
 
Words can't quite describe just how stupid this is. You do realize that boosts scale to be better with higher base stats, right? We're not talking about Zacian's 170 base attack. We're talking about Glalie. Base 80 spa Glalie. Can't afford to run any SpA investment because without spe and HP investment he's as ineffectual as it gets Glalie. I'm sorry, but where exactly do you get off?

It's honestly incredible just how much misinformation and gross oversimplification/leaps of logic swim around in this thread between mod posts.
Nice attempt at clutching your pearls. My post had nothing to do with anything's base stats. I was using Zacian as an example to show how absurd Moody's stat boosts are. Except that unlike Intrepid Sword which only activates once, Moody activates every single turn, so even something as seemingly useless as Glalie can suddenly become a full-blown cancer with it.

But if you want to argue base stats, chew on this: After one turn, whatever stat Glalie boosts will become a base stat of roughly 210.

Your move.
 
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Rotom-H i feel is a bit overlooked and likely almost as good as its W counterpart now in this gens meta.
Any mon that is immune to burns , paralysis and spike hazards is pretty neat. Plus its a a Corviknight counter than Rotom-W too. It can possibly check G-Darm as well since many of them do not carry Rock-Type attacks instead going for EQ and U-Turn.


Also about Excadrill , at the beginning of the games release everyone thought Sand Rush Excadrill would be as dominant as he was back in Gen V due to many of its counters being claimed by Dexit. However while Excadrill is a common and popular meta threat. Its more common as a Focus Sash holding Lead pokemon with Mold Breaker.

I guess that its due to the current Meta not being too kind to Tyranitar (losing Pursuit was a pretty big blow to it) or even Hippodown. But Also Excadrill is lije of the only pokemon that has access to Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin who can actually get legitimate milage out of the latters new speed increasing buff
 
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I know you typically just see Galvantula as a Webs lead, but an offensive Life Orb set is pretty anti-meta right now with the specific threats it handles, including almost the entire popular Jordy balance team that everyone is spamming (https://pokepast.es/7f10ccde4ca83722)

596.png

Galvantula @ Life Orb
Ability: Compoundeyes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Bug Buzz
- Giga Drain
- Volt Switch / Sticky Web / Taunt / Thunder Wave

There are a lot of different options in the last slot depending on what suits the rest of your team best, but with the first 3 moves alone Galvantula alone outspeeds and destroys a lot of common threats.

SpDef Corviknight: 252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Corviknight: 343-406 (85.7 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mandibuzz: 252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Mandibuzz: 291-346 (68.6 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hydreigon: 252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 343-406 (105.5 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO Through Sub

Seismitoed: 252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 442-525 (106.7 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It also hits a nice speed tier where it outpaces unboosted threats like: Hawlucha before Unburden (OHKO), Gyara (OHKO), Band Darm (OHKO after rocks), Rotom (2HKO), Togekiss (OHKO after rocks) and more.
 

puppo

Banned deucer.
Pretty close to getting reqs so far. Obviously, the metagame is an absolute mess right now. For the most part, I've just been using hyper offense. I think my favourite new addition is dragapult; that thing absolutely shreds, and it's so versatile that it's not so difficult to put your opponent on the spot and force them to guess your set. Nowhere near ban worthy, but an amazing new addition to the metagame.

Corviknight is another cool mon that I've enjoyed using and, especially with dynamax, it can pull off some really interesting sets. I'm not really sure that I see a niche for it after the inevitable dynamax ban though.

Special shoutout to dracovish for being stupid as hell. It's not so bad for the fast teams I've been using, but it's just a ridiculous addition that runs counter to the "balancing" that was supposedly done this gen.

Moody kinda sucks tbh. I've faced a fair few moody teams without too many issues. Unless you misplay badly, the chances of something like a Glalie / Octillery snowballing enough to cause any problems to a decent OU team is pretty tiny. Still, it's a stupid mechanic that reduces things to luck, and doesn't really have a place in the tier.
 
this lil peice o crap has been winning e some game

Ferrothorn @ Iron Plate
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip

EDIT: Also mostly one shots seismitoed

This lil boi is never expected and even plays a major role later in the battle he works hard and is a good boy
 
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this lil peice o crap has been winning e some game

Ferrothorn @ Iron Plate
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip

EDIT: Also mostly one shots seismitoed

This lil boi is never expected and even plays a major role later in the battle he works hard and is a good boy
Why iron plate?
Generally Ferrothorn is used defensively so Leftovers would fit better here, and accordingly you'd run impish over brave.
And Ferrothorn is a big part of the metagame he's pretty common so he is going to be expected on like a quarter of the teams.
 
Why iron plate?
Generally Ferrothorn is used defensively so Leftovers would fit better here, and accordingly you'd run impish over brave.
And Ferrothorn is a big part of the metagame he's pretty common so he is going to be expected on like a quarter of the teams.
My best guess is that iron plate is supposed to get some key damage thresholds but it's odd regardless.
 
just finished laddering with moody for reqs and I can safely say glalie is stupid, maybe bc its somewhat early meta and people arent used to it, but I pulled multiple wins out my ass when I was outplayed at every point of the game.
I'm not entirely sure it's broken but more so uncompetitive, having a pokemon with not only huge sweeping potential but entirely luck based is uncompetitive by nature and takes the agency out of the opposing player completely.
one thing is crits where many times they wont actually matter and good moody boosts who almost always matter, Glalie has multiple opportunities through the game of getting the right boosts, and unlike crits is actually something you can abuse with protect and sub instead of one chance.
octillery straight ass tho that loser dies to everything and cant outspeed anyone
 
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To be honest, I won't miss it. Moody is a pain to deal with. The idea of Moody Glalie in particular being banned to Ubers is probably for the best. It just happened earlier and with less deliberation than I was expecting. I just didn't expect action before the Dynamax decision because that has such an enormous impact on everything else.

Maybe I'm naive, but I felt like the situation might be different if Dynamax was (I'm assuming it's going to happen based on people's reactions and posts) banned in like 5 days or so. Not sure if it would have been a better or worse situation for Moody after Dynamax. I would have liked to see it first, though. That and examine potential counterplay further to see if the meta had the potential to reasonably adjust to it without Dynamax increasing the ability of Moody pokemon to be a pain. Or was Moody getting in the way of honestly evaluating the Dynamax situation in the suspect? Seems unlikely but you never know. Both will probably be out by next week.

Based on how many high ranking teams were abusing Moody, I guess I can see why the decision was made this early. I don't necesarrily even disagree with the decision or making it this early. I just wonder if there was a chance for things to be different and the meta to adapt. I'm sure plenty of people here hate Moody enough where they wouldn't care about any of that either way.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
Odd that Moody got banned so easily. I read through the explanation: Can someone explain me where the difference (in the past) is between Serene Grace Flinching (+Scarf etc.) and Moody? Both are skill-less
There's no difference, I'm afraid. I mean, I'd actually argue that stat-upping properly requires a good mind-game plan. Yes, you get a slow but steady +2 buff but it's completely random and you also get a -1 drop. It's not like haze, phazing, prankster taunt, infiltrator are not viable options.
You have to understand when to use protect and/or substitute, when to spam disable to stop wasting PPs, when to use disable in order to remove the best move of the enemy's kit... the more i played with glalie, the more I got convinced that the pokemon is not only quite hard to use properly, but also way harder than most statuppers in the tier.

Or are you telling me clicking the stab on cband/scarf darm-galar requires "skill"? Does any statupper such as togekiss require it? Did Hawlucha require any skill whatsoever in USUM? Enter the battlefield, boost yourself and destroy their team if they don't have pyukumuku or zapdos lol.

I'm pretty bummed with this ban, even though I originally thought otherwise and I stated it in this very thread, people desperately refuse to adapt to a new strategy, it's not braindead and even though it's based on lucky rolls, you have to manipulate the game state in order to get as many rolls as possible and make do with what you have. As you already stated, stuff like scarf rachi (or air slash togekiss) flinching people for 10 turns in a row should have been banned since gen 4.
 
Odd that Moody got banned so easily. I read through the explanation: Can someone explain me where the difference (in the past) is between Serene Grace Flinching (+Scarf etc.) and Moody? Both are skill-less
Because there exists a good amount of either: resists to Scarf Air Slash, or bulky powerful checks that will win since 60% is not a guarantee percentage.

While with Moody, the +2 & -1 in random stats each turn, results in Net Positive stat gains across multiple turns.
Combine that with Disable, Sub & Protect, then Glalie prevents most quick counterplay and gains multiple turns to become like a Max mon without Maxing.
Freeze Dry isn't absorbed by anything, and while weak initially, still does significant damage after SpAtk boosts.
Lastly, common balance mons like Toxapex or Dragapult are weak to Freeze Dry, while Substitute on Glalie can prevent Ditto from revenge killing.

So it's the combination of factors that make it have way less counterplay than something like Togekiss
 
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