Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Zrp200]

Related to this issue, word is that hidden power will be able to turn into the max move corresponding to its type sometime soon.
I think at that point, it'll be pretty clear the old mons have an advantage over the new ones. Every single one will have access to 110 BP max airstream, be able to use max flare on ferro, etc.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Related to this issue, word is that hidden power will be able to turn into the max move corresponding to its type sometime soon.
I think at that point, it'll be pretty clear the old mons have an advantage over the new ones. Every single one will have access to 110 BP max airstream, be able to use max flare on ferro, etc.

That's cool, and if that happens and dynamax is not promptly suspected in NDOU, i can say for certain that this metagame will die.

In my opinion, Its the final straw that pushes dynamax from broken to making the game nigh unplayable. You know how the best Dynamax abusers are OP? Its not because of the raw power it adds. Its the fact that they benefit the most from stat increases. Hawlucha using MK to be able to break through its checks. Gyara outspeeding the entire metagame after an Airstream.

If this is true, I propose a quickban on both dynamax and gigantamax because this change will warp the gameplay to the point of unplayability.

 

[NuttyRabbit]

Related to this issue, word is that hidden power will be able to turn into the max move corresponding to its type sometime soon.
I think at that point, it'll be pretty clear the old mons have an advantage over the new ones. Every single one will have access to 110 BP max airstream, be able to use max flare on ferro, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but given how Hidden Power worked with Z-moves last generation, wouldn't Hidden Power, regardless of type, turn into Max Strike? I may not be entirely correct on it, but HP turning into whatever move it wants doesn't seem right to me

 

[Yung Dramps]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1203312099440463873

Terrain damage boost reduced from 1.5x to 1.3x. Tapu nerf moment

 

[Ivy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but given how Hidden Power worked with Z-moves last generation, wouldn't Hidden Power, regardless of type, turn into Max Strike? I may not be entirely correct on it, but HP turning into whatever move it wants doesn't seem right to me

The Max move of Silvally's Multi-Attack in gen 8 appears as a Max Strike but has proper type effectiveness as though it were the base move. I imagine this effect would be carried over to hidden power for this format.

 

[metal box]

If only to detract from this discussion im dropping some teams I've been having success with:

screens

This was the first successful team I built and one of my faves, Grimmsnarl is a great screens setter and screens altogether is really good with all the broken setup mons, and Dynamax to further boost their bulk behind them. Zygarde and Mage are the mvps, both of them are pretty impossible to ohko behind screens, and weakness policy takes advantage of that. Both benefit heavily from Dynamax to get them out of 2hko range too, which makes it pretty difficult to stop a sweep once its started. BU Corviknight and Mega Blastoise have been fine, not as amazing as Zyg or Mage. Its really easy for Blastoise to smash behind a screen but even at +2 its possible for some mons to live the hit (Ferrothorn eg) and ko back, so its generally best as a late-game cleaner or as a wallbreaker. Corviknight I've found to be less impressive as a sweeper, but its great typing and bulk makes up for it, compressing the role of a potential sweeper and an effective pivot into a single slot. Sash Excadrill is the last thing I want to mention bc I think sash is a really useful right now on offense when you can fit it onto a set, for beating both Dynamax and Ditto. I've had plenty of situations where I'm threatened to be reverse swept by +2 Blastoise or Magearna, and Drill is able to take the hit and ko back. Would honestly love to experiment with more screens mons like Volcarona or TTar but I'm not actually a big screens player.

kokolucha

This team was based off of the Koko/Lucha/Medi/KyuB offenses that were common in gen 7, swapping KyuB for G-Darm since the former is banned and the latter is just generally a better breaker imo. Scarf Darm is a beast, esp with Dynamaxing to let it work around choice lock, but the rocks weakness really limits how often it can come in. KokoLucha is still very good imo and Lucha getting Brave Bird and CC is very nice, making Lucha overall much more consistent, not needing to rely on getting Acrobatics online or risking HJK into a 10% miss or a protect. Lucha also loves Dynamaxing but thats obvious if youve paid any attention to gen 8 ou. Lando i also wanna touch on bc it feels worse rn, not bad by any stretch but worse than it was in gen 7, largely bc the currently very offensive metagame makes it harder for it to do what its best at, which is being a great role compressor on offensively-oriented balance teams. The prevalence of Tangrowth, Mega Scizor and Corviknight all also kinda hurt Lando , with the former getting a free switch-in and getting back hp with Regen or firing off a Knock/Sleep Powder, and the latter two getting a free opportunity to Curse/Taunt/Defog/U-Turn/Roost/Knock/Bulk Up/Sub/whatever else, which can put you in a pretty rough spot. Ofc I'm not saying Landos bad by any means but its clearly not top of the heap in this meta like it was last gen- it feels much harder to just slap it on your team and have it be fully effective.

suicune

I built this team around Pex+Cune since I've seen hardly any Lele/Bulu/Serp/Koko, which are among the best breakers for this core. Suicune is part of a group of naturally bulky setup mons with Mage/Reuniclus/Volc/Zygarde that benefit heavily from Dynamax bc of how it lets you live a hit as you set up, then Dynamax and fire off a boosted Max move while suddenly putting yourself out of 2hko range. Other than that, theres not a ton to say about this team. Curse Scizor is very good to punish setup Zygardes and U-Turn keeps you from losing momentum vs Heatran, Clef can 1v1 Kommo-o, and Baneful Bunker/King's Shield together mitigate a lot of what G-Darm is trying to do. You could play around with the Aegi and Lando sets a bit but they're serviceable here. Pex is overall worse than it was last gen but still totally fine, I think Baneful Bunker is pretty good rn with how many physical attackers there are in the tier, and Shed Shell is mandatory for Dugtrio.

zygmeta

This team was based off of the old Zygarde meta teams from gen 7 that used Zygarde, a FWG core, a mega wallbreaker, and a ground immune defogger. Mega Meta has great synergy with Zygarde, with both of them being able to threaten each others' checks perfectly. I think rn the best Meta set is TPunch/EQ/MMash, and then one of Ice Punch/Bullet Punch/Hammer Arm/Rocks/HP Fire in the last slot, depending on the needs of the team. Zen Headbutt is pretty crappy rn given that the only things it hits better are Pex and Kommo-o, but Pex still hates switching into both TPunch and EQ, and Kommo-o is to frail to take multiple MMash, and cant ohko Meta unless its already weakened. Generally I prefer Ice Punch in the last slot bc it hits Zapdos, Zygarde, Tangrowth, and Lando all supereffectively, and it gives you a chance to hax your way through Scizor with 10% freeze, but this team specifically needed a rocker and haz other ways to deal with those mons. On the flip side, Gren is still solid but a bit worse than last gen bc of the high Tangrowth usage, and it doesn't benefit from Dynamax as much as other pokemon do. It is also in strict competition with Dracovish, I prefer Gren on these bulkier teams bc of how spikes wears down the opposing pokemon through all the switching, and how Water Shuriken makes up for the general lack of speed control on these teams. Vish does hit way harder though, and if all I need is a wallbreaker then I'm generally going to prefer it over Gren.

serp

I built this to try out serp, drain punch kommo-o and rotom-heat. Its kinda ugly but pretty effective, HDB makes rotom-h actually pretty good, finally, giving it a nice 4x steel resist and a fairy resist. It also matches up better than Rotom-W vs Veil and Webs teams, able to 1v1 ninetales and ribombee while defogging away veil/webs. Toad/Rotom/Serp/Kommo-o create a solid enough defensive core that can simultaneously apply offensive pressure to synergize with Metagross and Dugtrio, giving you a pretty decent balance matchup. Toad is kind of mediocre overall but letting the team not get 6-0d by fishious rend is nice enough, as is blocking Rotom-W entirely. Drain Punch/Clanger Kommo-o is very fun as a wincon vs balance teams that would be able to block a simple +1 Kommo-o, racking up more boosts as they struggle to pressure Kommo-o. The sets probably still worse than Double Clanger but I enjoy this version a lot more, plus fighting stab and being able to go full physical is a lot better than having to fit a special dragon type z move into your ev spread.

mence

I didn't expect much of this team when I built it but its pretty beastly. U-Turn Corviknight pairs really well with Vish, Lele and Heatran, luring in pokemon like Scizor, Zygarde, Gliscor, Lando, and Rotom-W, and then U-Turning into pokemon that ounish those switches hard. Mence is my fave part of the team though, its not actually significantly better than Gyarados imo but being neutral to tbolt is pretty nice for not letting any pokemon with a hard-hitting thunderbolt go nuts on the team. Lele has been a bit worse than I expected, initially I had specs but the high speed of the metagame makes it pretty difficult for Lele to be effective without scarf imo. Overall though, slower gen 7 wallbreakers like Mega Mawile, Lele, Hoopa-U, and Bulu I've generally found to perform worse this gen bc of the prevalence of fast offensive mons. Breakers like Vish, Metagross and Darm have been a lot better for their speed, while not sacrificing too much immediate power. Psychic Terrain does have some utility though to block priority moves like Zygarde's ESpeed and Aegislash's Shadow Sneak, which, while kind of niche, has come in clutch for me before. Heatran is the last thing I want to mention bc Dynamaxing puts it into an interesting spot where you can compress its old Z and Spdef sets into one slot, thus maintaining the bulk and longevity of Spdef while still having access to a big Max Flare when it needs it. Dracovish does hurt Heatran quite a bit tho bc if youre not Lava Plume, Vish gets to come in on all your attacks entirely for free. Oh also Dittos great, obviously

Overall I like where this metagames at rn, Dynamaxing doesn't actually feel that broken given the wide availability of defensive counterplay to its most common abusers, and I do like that it's negated a lot of the need for Z moves, making team building a bit easier. I might change my mind as the meta develops and we see the more broken abusers come to the forefront, but I'm enjoying it until then. Would love to see Genesect unbanned in the near future.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Has Defog removing terrain been implemented on PS yet? I love all of these hidden Tapu Koko nerfs. This also has multiple metagame implications.



But screw that. Im here to tell you about the hidden gem in NDOU that is Guzzlord.

That's right, Guzzlord.

I see Hydreigon faring use due to his typing, recovery, and ground immunity. Now that Zygod is dead, Zygarde is demoted to usually running SubDance sets and more offensive roles. But Guzzlord's ability to completely wall Greninja, check Gyarados, Vish, Lando, Metagross, Zygarde, and pretty much any special attacker lacking dazzling gleam makes him an incredibly unorthodox but potent defensive pivot that could be fit in bulky offense teams.
In the past, people looked at Guzzlord, saw his Specs set, disregarded him as garbage and forgot him. But unlike Hydreigon, Guzzlord has the ability to raise his own bulk via Stockpile, and outlast stall with swallow. After one stockpile, Guzzlord walls Vish. At two, im like 90% sure he can avoid the KO from lele moonblast. He has an expansive offensive movepool for coverage that can be adjusted to take out Exca, Ferro, Chansey, and Pex.

You want to run 4 HP 252 Def/ 252 Spdef, Relaxed to minmize gyro damage. Stockpile and Dragon Tail are mandatory, the other two, personally I like to use rest and swallow as complete overkill and to cripple ditto but its up to you to use coverage.
You can also look into TR Guzzlord as means to stop gren and Vish. Overall quite an underrated fellow, you should try.

Next week witness Psychium Z Gravity Regigigas

 

[Robot7620]

Has Defog removing terrain been implemented on PS yet? I love all of these hidden Tapu Koko nerfs. This also has multiple metagame implications.



But screw that. Im here to tell you about the hidden gem in NDOU that is Guzzlord.

That's right, Guzzlord.

I see Hydreigon faring use due to his typing, recovery, and ground immunity. Now that Zygod is dead, Zygarde is demoted to usually running SubDance sets and more offensive roles. But Guzzlord's ability to completely wall Greninja, check Gyarados, Vish, Lando, Metagross, Zygarde, and pretty much any special attacker lacking dazzling gleam makes him an incredibly unorthodox but potent defensive pivot that could be fit in bulky offense teams.
In the past, people looked at Guzzlord, saw his Specs set, disregarded him as garbage and forgot him. But unlike Hydreigon, Guzzlord has the ability to raise his own bulk via Stockpile, and outlast stall with swallow. After one stockpile, Guzzlord walls Vish. At two, im like 90% sure he can avoid the KO from lele moonblast. He has an expansive offensive movepool for coverage that can be adjusted to take out Exca, Ferro, Chansey, and Pex.

You want to run 4 HP 252 Def/ 252 Spdef, Relaxed to minmize gyro damage. Stockpile and Dragon Tail are mandatory, the other two, personally I like to use rest and swallow as complete overkill and to cripple ditto but its up to you to use coverage.
You can also look into TR Guzzlord as means to stop gren and Vish. Overall quite an underrated fellow, you should try.

Next week witness Psychium Z Gravity Regigigas

I'm not pretending to be an expert on National Dex because I haven't played any games, but excuse me here.
I am quite sure that OU is not so different from NatDex to make Stockpileswallow viable. Yes, 223 HP is great, but 53/53 defenses plus a 4x weakness to fairy, a dominant typing is not so great. Plus you have to stockpile 3 turns to regain 100%. Said opposing stall certainly isn't going to watch you they're going to poison you, hazard stack, etc.
Plus 101/97 offenses are mediocre are best you're not going to do much back to stall

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

I'm not pretending to be an expert on National Dex because I haven't played any games, but excuse me here.
I am quite sure that OU is not so different from NatDex to make Stockpileswallow viable. Yes, 223 HP is great, but 53/53 defenses plus a 4x weakness to fairy, a dominant typing is not so great. Plus you have to stockpile 3 turns to regain 100%. Said opposing stall certainly isn't going to watch you they're going to poison you, hazard stack, etc.
Plus 101/97 offenses are mediocre are best you're not going to do much back to stall

All very valid points. But as I said, Guzzlord's niche is to check what Hydreigon is supposed to check, but better defensively. Stockpile is meant to be used once to make Guzzlord's defenses high enough to compliment his HP.

 

[HaloDragonX]

Why is Melmetal unusable right now if this format allows the unreleased things from Sword & Shield such as hidden ability starters?

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Why is Melmetal unusable right now if this format allows the unreleased things from Sword & Shield such as hidden ability starters?

It’s a bug; it should be fixed in due time. It would be better to post things like this here in the future: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ormation-and-simple-questions-thread.3656427/

To continue meta discussion, what are the thoughts on the mons that have been great in regdex OU? In particular, what are people’s thoughts on stuff like Galarian Darmanitan, Rotom-Heat, Dracovish, Shed, etc?

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

To continue meta discussion, what are the thoughts on the mons that have been great in regdex OU? In particular, what are people’s thoughts on stuff like Galarian Darmanitan, Rotom-Heat, Dracovish, Shed, etc?

Besides Darm and Vish, the majority of those mons are only OU because their superior counterparts are dead. Zapdos is better than Rotom-Heat for example.

 

[658Greninja]

Besides Darm and Vish, the majority of those mons are only OU because their superior counterparts are dead. Zapdos is better than Rotom-Heat for example.

I disagree. Other than some previous gen Pokemon like Togekiss and Heat, most of the Gen8 meta is viable in NatDex. Corv has better overall special bulk and less passiveness than Skarm while also being close to Celesteela’s overall bulk but being able to Roost off hits from Protean Gren, Lele, and Zam. Slow U-Turn is great and it lets it U-Turn on Tran and Koko and escape Magnezone without needing a Shed Shell. It can also be a solid wincon with Bulk Up. Cinderace hits hard, has a good movepool and provides momentum, It’ll be even better with Libero. Grimmsnarl is a fantastic screen setter, Dragapult is still really fast for the tier and has a fantastic movepool to boot. I think a good handful of Gen 8 mons are more balanced and viable than Gen7’s grandpa squad.

 

[Funbot28]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/moody-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3657659/

Following the decision and same reasoning made by the OU council, Moody is now banned from National Dex OU.

Moody can be especially detrimental in this metagame with abusers such as Smeargle and Bibarel that can get out of hand on top of the main culprit in Glalie. The ability just adds another element of luck into the game which is undesirable despite it not raising evasion as it previously did.

Expect more announcements coming soon.

Tagging The Immortal

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/moody-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3657659/

Following the decision and same reasoning made by the OU council, Moody is now banned from National Dex OU.

Moody can be especially detrimental in this metagame with abusers such as Smeargle and Bibarel that can get out of hand on top of the main culprit in Glalie. The ability just adds another element of luck into the game which is undesirable despite it not raising evasion as it previously did.

Expect more announcements coming soon.

Tagging The Immortal

Since this confirms that NDOU follows the regular OU, can we suspect dynamax? In my opinion moody is far less unhealthy (its still worthy of a ban of course but its somewhat balanced by the fact that the only Pokemon that get it are shit, besides mega glalie i guess) than the uncentralized shit that is dynamax. Unlike gen 8 ou theres no worry of having a passive metagame.

Edit: Why is Melmetal still disabled? Im under the impression that this is a Post-Home meta.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

I’m willing to guess that if Dynamax is banned in reg OU, it’ll be banned in NDOU as well.

 

[G-Luke]

All very valid points. But as I said, Guzzlord's niche is to check what Hydreigon is supposed to check, but better defensively. Stockpile is meant to be used once to make Guzzlord's defenses high enough to compliment his HP.

Guzzlord is ass. Stockpile is pretty unreliable, and it's myriad of popular weaknesses plus its pretty average bulk and low speed means Guzzlord will be taking an absurd amount of chip before it can do much of anything. Even in lower tiers in SM, Guzzlord wasn't used as a wall because it simply cannot perform that role. At best Guzzlord can run an Assault Vest, but why not just run Mega Latias if you want a bulky Dragon anyways. Guzzy is pretty outclassed in all areas.

 

[Sereg]

Dynamax is less powerful in NatDex. You lose flexibility as your mega and Z-Move user cannot dynamax and they themselves can be used against your opponent's.

 

[Zrp200]

Dynamax is less powerful in NatDex. You lose flexibility as your mega and Z-Move user cannot dynamax and they themselves can be used against your opponent's.

Doesn't make it less broken. In addition, there are more dynamax users in nat dex (looking at you Kartana). The presence of megas and z-moves in the meta does not reduce the value of dynamax, as it is more potent at winning than either.

 

[KrazyKoopa95]

Sorry for the one-liner, but how is Dragapult and Grimmsnarl thriving in this meta? Any viability ranking?

 

[Pabloaram]

Sorry for the one-liner, but how is Dragapult and Grimmsnarl thriving in this meta? Any viability ranking?

Grimmsnarl is a pretty good screen setter for HO team. he work the same in OU, Uber and AG

 

[G-Luke]

Sorry for the one-liner, but how is Dragapult and Grimmsnarl thriving in this meta? Any viability ranking?

Imo Dragapult cant do half of the flexes it does in standard because in Nat Dex a) plenty of powerful Pokemon naturally outspeed it b) Pursuit exists c) viable Normal types exist as well d) more tanky Pokémon that can shrug off its weak hits and retaliate hard exist.

Dragapult is a top tier mon in OU but rn it has too many weird shit going against it here.

 

[Tyke]

Not to be combative, but this meta seems extremely messy.

Why are megas and z-moves included; isn't the tagline is "play with all the pokemon", not "play with all the mechanics". If you're going to even include cut moves like Pursuit or Hidden Power, what reason is there to not include Gen 1 Blizzard or other move functionality that was also removed? A Natdex meta is going to inherently be arbitrary, but I feel the goal should be to mitigate arbitrariness, not lean into it.

Idk it feels like a mishmash of mechanics and concepts that is really far removed from the simple "play with the national pokedex" concept, which is disappointing given how appealing that sounds.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

You know what? I'm glad a badged user said it. Ive always saw the irony in people saying how a dex cut puts a strain on teambuilding when mega evolving does the exact same thing. So does z moves to a lesser extent.

I think National Dex should fall under these parameters:

1. Same as Galar OU but Pokemon that are not in Pokemon Sword and Shield are available with their Generation 7 data.
2. Items that are not available in the last Pokemon game are not available are not allowed. This means no Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves (exception is Necrozium for AG).
3. Unreleased or otherwise unobtainable Pokemon (Melmetal, Magearna-Original, Floette-Eternal) should be allowed because why the fuck not :^)

Pretty much it.

 

[Sereg]

Not to be combative, but this meta seems extremely messy.

Why are megas and z-moves are included; isn't the tagline is "play with all the pokemon", not "play with all the mechanics". If you're going to even include cut moves like Pursuit or Hidden Power, what reason is there to not include Gen 1 Blizzard or other move functionality that was also removed? A Natdex meta is going to inherently be arbitrary, but I feel the goal should be to mitigate arbitrariness, not lean into it.

Idk it feels like a mishmash of mechanics and concepts that is really far removed from the simple "play with the national pokedex" concept, which is disappointing given how appealing that sounds.

We've discussed this before.

There's a difference between a change and a removal. This game is about keeping things that were removed. Megas especially are basically Pokémon themselves.