Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Boom Boom Pow

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It's not surprising to see a majority pro-ban now that the dust is settling, and I hate to say it, but it's well justified. I may not be voting in the upcoming vote to ban or not ban, but I do want to give my own thoughts on Dynamax as well as previous mechanics.

Megas and Z-moves had their issues, but it was possible to balance them out at least, granted both were in different ways as well. Dynamax however, is pretty much what you get when you take the worse aspects of Megas and Z-moves and put them together.

And cause of how long a read my thoughts will be, I'll just keep them to tabs below.

With Mega Evolutions, you could only get them on a select few pokemon and had to make the most of them, with their abilities changing and sometimes their typing. Granted some of the pokemon that got them did NOT deserve to get a mega evolution (Gengar, Blaziken), and some had to be significantly nerfed in generation 7 (Kanghaskhan), but some did end up bringing life to otherwise forgotten and useless Pokemon (Lopunny, Beedrill). While like Dynamax now they were your win condition pretty much in generation 6, you at least knew who was going to, and they had to HOLD AN ITEM (keep that in mind) to be able to Mega Evolve, making it more predictable and easier to prepare for even in team preview.

The main problem ones though are the Primals, due to Groudon and Kyogre not counting for the Mega Slot, and Mega Rayquaza able to freely use an item, so long as it has Dragon Ascent, which is a move it's perfectly okay having since it's a Flying-Type Close Combat pretty much.

Z-Moves on the other hand, were easily far more balanced and had more thought put into them for the most part. You still NEEDED AN ITEM to be able to use them, but it wasn't restricted to a select few Pokemon. It required simply a move of the same type for an offensive move, upping the power of the move by 80 bp, incentivizing the use of otherwise useless moves and combinations (Solarbeam Heatran or Fly Landorus, or even the move Celebrate), and they were limited to 1 turn as well, meaning a lot of skill went into them, as you needed to know when to use it, and who to use it on. It rewarded players who were skillful enough to save it for the right time, winning the game or turning the game-state around, but it wasn't impossible to come back from. Also contrary to popular belief, it was possible to win without a Z-Move, since you could lose it to a type immunity and not be unable to win then.

Z-moves that boosted were also limited to status moves without any further damage which allowed them to be fully balanced out by the fact you couldn't cheese extra effects from attacking moves. Moves like Parting Shot and boosting moves had various effects that could help you out in battle for 1 time, and were far from unbeatable too, since you could even punish them if they did so prematurely, or you caught them at the right time. They were boosts you had to carefully plan to use, and they didn't pretty much guarantee victory either, so again, it was heavily skill-based.

The problem Z-moves though ignored those clauses, which were two in particular: Kommonium-Z and Eeveeium-Z. Both of these moves granted humongous boosts to teams that could allow pokemon to snowball out of control. However, the saving grace for them were that the teams had to be built around them in both singles and doubles. Regardless, if you didn't have specific ways to counter a Kommo-o or Eevee them, you were screwed, which is why Eeveeium-Z was banned (that and due to Baton Pass shenanigans), and Kommonium-Z was OU at minimum, since the Tapus straight-up stopped it with their fairy-typing and were everywhere.

Now we come to Dynamaxing, the generation 8 mechanic. I wasn't kidding when I said that they were the worst parts about Megas and Z-Moves combined into one, as it's glaring where the issues all lie. Firstly, all Pokemon can Dynamax, which is not an issue by itself, but becomes such when you factor in many different problems on top of that. Next the HP stat is doubled and stretched out which makes dealing with the problem Pokemon that much harder by giving it even more bulk than it already had, mostly with how even with a x4 weakness, you cannot guarantee and OHKO like you can against Megas or Z-Moves users. Then despite damaging, the moves also give buffs and debuffs, including weather and terrain control, which is a boon some Pokemon did not need on top of boosted Max Moves, which basically turn the Pokemon's moveset into z-moves, which has led to some Pokemon being able to easily snowball out of control with little skill needed, instead needing more luck to just deal with them, which in unhealthy for the game. Dynamax also frees the pokemon from choice-locked items, on top of them being able to freely use items just increases their brokenness. It makes them powerful enough that 3 turns are just way too long, meaning that Dynamax sweeping is just way too overpowered and is pretty much always your win condition that you HAVE TO HAVE or you just lose, and you just lose if you fail to sweep too, you cannot come back from a failed Dynamax sweep, especially if the opponent does it too.

As for those saying this is not as much of a problem in doubles, there is a couple of problems that have bled over into doubles, though one is much greater in singles. Max moves are very inconsistent in power with some moves being increased by 50 bp and others by 30, strong or weak, which makes them much harder to teambuild for (or would if not for the buffs they give). This inconsistency in bp increases also makes it worse in terms of how broken the mechanic is, as even if it were balanced, it would encourage movesets that force immediate Dynamaxing.

Then there's Gigantamaxing, which is basically Megas but not really. They're similar to Dynamaxing, but STAB moves on the pokemon that can Gigantamax give different effects, such as Grimmsnarl causing a yawn effect. However the fact that they go off of STAB means complex bans won't work, making them impossible to rebalance.

All in all, I'm in the crowd that says without any semblance of doubt: BAN DYNAMAX, it's the only healthy move for the game for singles at this point.
 
My biggest gripe with Dynamax isn't the offensive prowess of the Pokémon that use it, nor the fact that they get boosts by using it (though Max Airstream annoys me a little but whatever, I could live with it), I am ok even with the fact that you unlock yourself from choice lock, but what I'm annoyed by the most is that if a Pokémon dynamaxes you can't kill it. It is very hard (almost impossible) to get a OHKO on a dynamaxed Pokémon at full health, you need an insane attack like Dracozolt's Bolt Beak with the 2x boost or CB Darmanitan's STAB to have a chance of killing them.

If Dynamax didn't double the Pokémon's health I'd be perfectly ok with it, but since it doesn't I am going to vote ban.

As for the rest of the metagame, I think it's mostly fine, although Dracovish grinds my gears, because it forces you to run a water immunity or you are going to lose a Pokémon every time it comes in. That's dumb. Dracozolt is on the same boat theoretically, but between Hustle misses and electric being worse than water as a typing, I'm fine with it for now. I don't mind Darmanitan as much, it is strong for sure, but unless it flinches multiple times in a game I find it fine. Yes, CB U-Turn doing 40 to my ice resist can be annoying at times, but between it's Ice typing and Rotom's prevalence I find it a good Pokémon, but not broken.

Also delete Hatterene from the game, thanks.
 
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Kate

Metamodernity
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
RBTT Champion
I think it's quite ironic how the anti-ban arguments actually help the pro-ban side, because there's virtually no way you can say dynamax promotes a healthy metagame without making crap up or stating irrelevant things, like it's a "meta defining mechanic". I've never seen a suspect with literally no argument on one side but here we are. If you are indeed twelve and decided to post here because you want to continue to use gigantamax pikachu, please stop and actually consider how this relates to something being broken. If z moves or megas were broken, I sure as hell hope we wouldn't because "its meta defining".
In summary, there is zero reason to vote anti ban imo.
 

bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
is a Pre-Contributor
I don't know much about anything Gen 8 related because it's all lowkey really stupid, but I do know just the tiniest bit about this from my time playing on Showdown. Long story short, I already suck at battling, but when you taken into account arguably their most stupid gimmick to date, things get messy really quick.

For starters, the bulk increase from Dynamax affects Pokémon's damage calculations by a significant amount, more so than even Mega Evolution did back in the day. Megas were at least balanced a bit by the fact that they had to have a held item (Rayquaza can actually Mega AND Dynamax, just sayin) and by the regularity of their moves. Because of this, their viability spreads weren't as jank as these Dynamax Pokémon. The extra bulk makes up for any defensive benefits Mega Evolutions would have gotten while the Max Moves do the same but for offense, while also being able to use multiple times unlike Z-Moves AND you can still hold an item. As if that wasn't bad enough, you can even use a Choice item and still be able to pick whatever Max Moves you want. Now that's busted.

The problem with Dynamax is that it can temporarily super buff anything. With Meg a s, you could just ban the OP ones and be done, but Dynamax be used on anything without actually banning Dynamax itself. So...despite not having any credentials to vote...I want to vote BAN.
 
i'll drop my two cents as well after yesterday's discussion i had with some other players on discord, without too many expectations due to what i've seen on this thread/discord chats, but let's give it a try. so, my initial stance on dynamax can be found here. i'll add a few things to that post. i've noticed how teambuilding became much less important with dynamax (many games in the previous generations among the best players were already decided before the game started because of the nature of the tier and the importance of getting a good matchup), and this is a positive factor because it gives emphasis to playing abilities - you can win against any other team by playing better than your opponent, tough matchups still exist but you can circumvent them way more easily thanks to dynamax. now, someone who enjoys building counterteams in team tours and thinks he is a great builder (!) will be sad about not being able to do so as effectively as they used to :psysad:.

now, onto short-term vs. long-term planning. so, dynamax is a very powerful tool in the short-term, as it can easily make your opponent think twice about doing certain moves because it adds more possibilities every single turn. this is undeniably true, but there's more. in most scenarios that occur when playing a game, you can be proactive and use your dynamax first to open holes or you can wait for your opponent to use it by eventually exploiting secondary effects of your opponent's dynamax (based on your team - see ditto), or you can use it defensively if you 100% need to win a 1v1 against a threat/ensure you are not getting flinched/phazed or w/e. this way of weighing all the different possibilities in the short-term, while still keeping focus in the long-term is - my friends - the definition of long-term planning with some degree of adaptation. very far from being uncompetitive in my opinion. i am sure that even in previous gens everybody playing this game competitively needed to adapt their long-term plan to some sequences that happened in the game (be it an unexpected tech, the fear of a certain move, bad luck...). dynamax brings nothing new on the table from this point of view. some people say getting one turn wrong against dynamax means a loss. that is completely untrue and an exaggeration, because it depends on a myriad of factors, but even if you spot some degree of truth, i could show a good number of games where someone (me included) got outplayed the whole game except for one turn, capitalized the one chance he had (in general because of good matchup) and still managed to win. this game doesn't often reward the one who played better, it is a huge mistake assuming so.

as i stated in my old PR post, there are some mons i deem incredibly annoying to face combined with their dynamax, and here it is where teambuilding is important. as a tour player, i've always been careful about bringing teams weak to most types of cheese because, while i always accept losses, i tend to get very annoyed when such losses come from the impossibility to touch the opponent's team. the same applies to this dynamax meta. if you are not inclined to see hazards on your field, you will run double defog teams; in the same way if you are not inclined to see the opponent boosting his stats and revenge-killing with usual mons, you will run ditto or haze. if you are not inclined to play for 150 turns, you will bring a team that wins (or loses) earlier. no big deal. this is part of the problem eo addressed in his pro-ban reasoning and it has nothing different from what teambuilding has always been. to add onto what eo's said and possibly tdk too, is dynamax a 50/50 decision? it usually is not. it is impossible to say there's a fixed scheme about when using dynamax or not, but 50/50s occur almost solely when you are facing a choice locked mon (usually cb darmanitan) for which you often haven't got a midground that covers both dynamax and the cb move or protect on your dedicated check. that is a sort of 50/50 as in "will he dynamax or not" - note that he can switch back too, but it isn't a 50/50 for you, as you just weigh pros and cons of staying in and not caring about his dynamax vs. dynamaxing your own mon vs. scouting his dynamax. now these choices all have some pros and cons. if you don't care about his dynamax and you lose your dedicated check, you know that you can deal damage back (with interests) by using your own dynamax - this is my preferred choice in most cases; if you win the 1v1 when both mons use dynamax and there is no particular drawback in case he switches back, this is your preferred choice; otherwise you can decide to scout for his dynamax when you can afford a possible loss of the mon you switch in to the cb move. as you clearly see, it's easy to see "oml 50/50s" when in reality the whole picture is way more complex and the chances there's an actual situation similar to the bisharp vs gengar tdk talked about are incredibly low from a pure game theoretic perspective. then if we are talking about approximations and biases - that some of pro-ban arguments include - there's not much to be done.
finally, competitive pokemon is and has been (with rby being a partial exception) a game with incomplete information, otherwise we would be watching AIs play against each other and cheer for the one with the nicest name. incomplete information is nothing but a perk, else mazar's bot would have been encouraged.

i tried to address to the most significant opinions by council members - don't get me wrong, most of those arguments are valid and well-explained, some are not arguments, so i just skipped them. my post isn't aimed at contradicting the statements in the OP about dynamax, i just wanted to add some points to the entire picture and explain why i am voting NO BAN. i believe there are ways to have a healthier metagame by addressing this problem gradually rather than drastically.

(also if you are interested in how the post dynamax metagame will look like in the short-term, you can come here and have a look at replays among some of the best players on smogon in this discord invitational tournament. note that this is for mere curiosity, this is a developing metagame, without the chance to properly test teams on the ladder. future state shouldn't shape your decision about the current state, but there's nothing bad about having a genuine look imo).

Thanks for reading.
I'd like like to preface my comment by say that I've never played a day of showdown in my life. I wanted to put out that so people will take my opinion with a grain of salt but I feel like as someone outside of the community I could offer my take.

Personally. I dislike everything that dynamax stands for. The garish colored aura is uncomfortable to look at. The clouds look like floating pieces of turds (not a problem in showdown but it's something to consider with cart play). The variety of max moves is very limited and favors certain types of moves such as Flying. And the mechanic is absolutely punishing to those that don't use it. It is the worst parts of the two previous gimmicks rolled into one and is hard to ignore due to its role in the story, raids, and online battles.

Now I do realize that there are some people that do enjoy dynamaxing and would like to see it included in competitive and that is fine. Perhaps, like in you say in your previous comment, we could find a way to create a balanced meta featuring dynamax with enough testing.

However, with how powerful dynamax is in singles, said meta will be completely built around dynamaxing. There will almost no potential for people to build teams without dynamaxing.

One of the popular defenses of dynamaxing is that everyone can dynamax at anytime and place but that completely falls apart if one person in the battlr doesn't want to dynamax or is relectuant do so. As this thread proves, there are a fair percentage of people who dislike dynamaxing and want to see it gone from competitive singles. In a meta that allows dynamax, those people will be put into situations where they're forced use a mechanic that they do not like. Some people might grow to like it while others might grow to resent it even more and drive them away from ranked Showdown altogether.

A comparison could made to if a bunch of people in the smash community wanted to change competitive Smash Bros Ultimate to allow a limited number of items or have battles be Spirit Battles instead. There might be plenty of people who'd want to see that happen & it would attract people who like those mechanics. Additionally, there might even be a way to make it competitively viable. However, there will be a fair number of people that don't like those aspects of the games and will feel alienated from the game if the only way to competitive is with items or spirits.

I believe that despite what some people might say, personal enjoyment might end up being a huge factor in whether the ban happens as well as alienating as few players as possible due to the lack of any comfortable middle ground.

A possible solution to the problem is to implement a system where dynamaxing is allowed only if both players agree to using it, but that could further mess up team building.

In the end, if I were allowed to vote I would say to BAN IT, because its role in the meta would be as controversial (if not more) than weather wars. Additionally, it would less catastrophic to alienate fans of Dynamaxing from just 6v6 singles (it will still be around in doubles, national ou, ubers, and battle spot) than alienating people who don't like the mechanic from competitive Smogon, completely.
 
A possible solution to the problem is to implement a system where dynamaxing is allowed only if both players agree to using it, but that could further mess up team building.
Clauses and bans should never be opt-out, regardless of whether or not both players agree to it beforehand. For one thing this sets a terrible precedent and opens the floodgates for all sorts of stupid proposals (allowing Zacian in OU as long as both players agree, etc), and for another this undermines Smogon's tiering philosophy by suggesting that a clause or ban wasn't actually necessary for the health of the metagame.

Also, we probably shouldn't be bringing up subjective points about Dynamax's color scheme, or talking about its role in the cart's storylines or Raids or whatever. Those aren't relevant factors in a suspect test and shouldn't really be things that influence anyone's vote. It's like choosing political candidates based on what color their hair is.
 
Uhh so im not really active on pokemon until new games come out. I usually love trying the new mechanics (Gen 7 for daysssss), but this one just felt cheap and gimmicky. The only thing I like about it is the life that it has brought into some of the underused pokemon. With that being said, it's the only good thing I see coming from this. I can't remember who originally said it, but it just takes alot of the skill (those sick predictions) out of the game. The only way I see to balance it is to ban certain Pokemon from dynamaxing. One thing i do worry about is the amount of people who will look down on Smogon for this decision. The decision to ban will remove one of the big mechanics from the game. While people like me enjoy a balanced metagame, I dont think outsiders will be too keen on it.
 
Dynamax

+100% HP, ~130 BP moves that skip accuracy check and boost stats/set weather WHILE doing damage, breaks through Protect, flinching immunity, Encore immunity, Choice lock immunity, Destiny Bond immunity, Perish Song immunity, Super Fang immunity, phazing immunity, immunity to all weight-related moves...and you can still hold a Life Orb. Why are we giving this Hackmons-tier mechanic a chance? To save face? It doesn't even make sense lol. The double HP and Max Moves are bad enough, but the immunities are salt in the wound by stifling any counterplay whatsoever. It's downright comical. Did a kid design Dynamax? Is this not the easiest ban in Smogon history?
 
After getting my reqs and playing gen 8 OU for a bit, My opinion is that Dynamax is a broken mechanic and unhealthy for the metagame. One of the biggest problems with Dynamax is that it frees you from the choice lock, this defeats the purpose of pivoting around the choice lock with your resists. In a simple scenario where you sac a mon to see what your opponent will lock into and going to your resist/immunity after is invalidated just because your opponent can Dynamax and go for the coverage move is very uncompetitive.

Dynamax also adds a lot of unpredictability as any mon can Dynamax at any time and unlike Megas/Z-Moves it doesn't even require an item slot to do so. Another big problem with this mechanic is that it lets you throw out high bp Max Moves/Signature Moves which have additional effects like setting up weather/boosting a stat/Setting up SR and so on. These moves are very unique and stand out from high bp moves Like Draco meteor/Overheat/Thunder because there is no downside of using them allowing you to spam them while the moves mentioned before cost you drop in spatk or have low accuracy to balance their high bp.

Dynamax can also shift the game to any side because the mon which Dynamaxes has double the hp and can tank 2x and even 4x super effective attacks and muscle past through its checks/Prevent themself from being revenge killed.
The Only time you have to be careful about spamming these moves and stack up boosts is when there is a ditto on opposing team so you don't want to get reverse swept.

To sum it all up I think the pros of dynamaxing heavily outweigh the cons, I am going to VOTE BAN ON DYNAMAX.
 

Oldamar999

Tien Time
With all of these terrible posts coming up on how to not ban dynamax by either doing ridiculous complex bans or doing bad arguments like "but it's the generation's mechanic", and the fact that we've only had 1 decent no ban argument, I feel the need to do a little PSA for people who want to make a no ban post.

If you have an argument in your head and you're thinking of posting it, but then you look through the thread and see that several arguments like yours have constantly been rejected, bashed, and/or deleted, it's probably a good idea that you dont post it. It really isnt too hard to just look through the thread to see if your argument could be valid, and Tricking is literally the only person to have come up with an actual argument against banning dynamax (I still dont agree with it, but it's the only decent argument), and the rest have been the same garbage that keeps getting shut down and deleted every single time.

Just think before you post, alright? Have a good day
 
BAN DYNAMAX

why?. Dynamax unbalances the game in many ways.
The first is that it benefits too much one style of play over another, for example, the HOs that carry Pokémon that abuse it (Gyarados, Togekiss, etc.) that has the main problem of boosting or killing certain defensive "threats"
due to its increased Dinamax movements and avoiding the blocking of choice, and especially making unpredictable games because one should always be thinking about the enemy's dynamax.
 
Can someone look at this replay and tell me why they think Dynamaxing is broken...https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1021344605
If you have problems with Dynamaxed Gyarados, then wouldn't it be better to just put a max defense Ferrothorn against it. It blocks Gyarados as well.
The reasons I like Dynamaxing and don't think it should be banned :
1. It boosts accuracy of Pokemon. So, previously unused Pokemon can now be used properly. Take Noivern for example. It had accuracy problems with Hurricane and Draco Meteor. With Dynamaxing if you can predict properly, then with Max Airstrike you can boost it's speed and it becomes a counter for Dragapult as well which without Dynamaxing isn't really possible. Without Dynamaxing, a lot of the unused mons will just go back to being unused. By trying to ban Dynamaxing you are simply taking away the opportunity of other players who might make their seemingly weak Pokemon (and Pokemon with whom they have emotional attachment to) more viable via Dynamaxing. Isn't Pokemon supposed to be a game that the players are supposed to be playing with their favourite Pokemon? By banning Dynamaxing you are just promoting the same set of 10 different Pokemon in the metagame without diversity which is really annoying to have.
2. Dynamaxing isn't an autowin mechanic. I have seen +2 Dynamaxed Gyarados get blocked by Ferrothorn or Toxapex. So, why ban a mechanic which isn't broken? Plus it's only for 3 turns.
3. It's still too early to ban an early mechanic. A lot of the Pokemon's moves and their abilities haven't even been released yet. How do you know that those new Pokemon wouldn't find counters in Dynamaxed Pokemon. If you already ban a new mechanic before all the Pokemon like Zeraora or Kyurem get released then you wouldn't even know how the metagame would have played out and what kind of counters you would get with Dynamaxing in it.
4. Dynamaxing forces you to plan ahead. Imagine if the opposing team is a rain team with Peliper gone in the opposing team and you still have Dracovish on the opposing side with Fishious Rend and that too with Rain. On top of that you know that your Dynamaxed Pokemon can't take out the opposing team's Pokemon before Dracovish is released. So, what do you do? You use Max Flare before your Dynamaxing ends so that you can nerf Dracovish's Fishious Rend by bringing out harsh sunlight and counter it with a Pokemon that is Neutral to Dracovish's Fishious Rend. Without Dynamaxing, you are just getting swept by Barracuda and Dracovish under the rain(under those circumstances). So, why ban a game mechanic which is meant to neutralize the metagame?

So, no ban to Dynamaxing from my side. Some of you might just say, yeah that's just your opinion. Get a GXE of 81% and vote against it. But, duh! Even if I get a GXE of 81% and vote against the ban with all the other players voting for the ban my vote would make much difference now would it?
 
Can someone look at this replay and tell me why they think Dynamaxing is broken...https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1021344605
If you have problems with Dynamaxed Gyarados, then wouldn't it be better to just put a max defense Ferrothorn against it. It blocks Gyarados as well.
The reasons I like Dynamaxing and don't think it should be banned :
1. It boosts accuracy of Pokemon. So, previously unused Pokemon can now be used properly. Take Noivern for example. It had accuracy problems with Hurricane and Draco Meteor. With Dynamaxing if you can predict properly, then with Max Airstrike you can boost it's speed and it becomes a counter for Dragapult as well which without Dynamaxing isn't really possible. Without Dynamaxing, a lot of the unused mons will just go back to being unused. By trying to ban Dynamaxing you are simply taking away the opportunity of other players who might make their seemingly weak Pokemon (and Pokemon with whom they have emotional attachment to) more viable via Dynamaxing. Isn't Pokemon supposed to be a game that the players are supposed to be playing with their favourite Pokemon? By banning Dynamaxing you are just promoting the same set of 10 different Pokemon in the metagame without diversity which is really annoying to have.
2. Dynamaxing isn't an autowin mechanic. I have seen +2 Dynamaxed Gyarados get blocked by Ferrothorn or Toxapex. So, why ban a mechanic which isn't broken? Plus it's only for 3 turns.
3. It's still too early to ban an early mechanic. A lot of the Pokemon's moves and their abilities haven't even been released yet. How do you know that those new Pokemon wouldn't find counters in Dynamaxed Pokemon. If you already ban a new mechanic before all the Pokemon like Zeraora or Kyurem get released then you wouldn't even know how the metagame would have played out and what kind of counters you would get with Dynamaxing in it.
4. Dynamaxing forces you to plan ahead. Imagine if the opposing team is a rain team with Peliper gone in the opposing team and you still have Dracovish on the opposing side with Fishious Rend and that too with Rain. On top of that you know that your Dynamaxed Pokemon can't take out the opposing team's Pokemon before Dracovish is released. So, what do you do? You use Max Flare before your Dynamaxing ends so that you can nerf Dracovish's Fishious Rend by bringing out harsh sunlight and counter it with a Pokemon that is Neutral to Dracovish's Fishious Rend. Without Dynamaxing, you are just getting swept by Barracuda and Dracovish under the rain(under those circumstances). So, why ban a game mechanic which is meant to neutralize the metagame?

So, no ban to Dynamaxing from my side. Some of you might just say, yeah that's just your opinion. Get a GXE of 81% and vote against it. But, duh! Even if I get a GXE of 81% and vote against the ban with all the other players voting for the ban my vote would make much difference now would it?

lmao these people defending dyna have the worst arguments i've ever seen how can you people not accept that this shit is busted and promotes an unhealthy metagame? the fact that ditto has like, what, 40% usage or something should prove to you that this current meta is fucking wack. i hope to god that this shit gets yeeted into AG where it belongs.

also I just realized you literally said in your own comment that you werent able to get the reqs to vote and youre defending this shit oh my god LMAOOOOO
 
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Don't think I am eligible to vote but my opinion is very much pro-ban. My opinion has mostly been covered so not much need for it, but I felt like giving.

Dynamax isn't as unbeatable as at first I did think; however, it is so very centralising. I found myself needing either a ditto to counter boosts or a grimsnarl to substitute then cripple once the dynamaxing was done.
It becomes a cat and mouse for which pokemon can go. Compared with megas where there was usually the obvious pokemon that would be, this one can be any pokemon and it suddenly changes everything.

That moment I call a booster through say rapid spin or Dragon Dance and trick it a choice scarf or encore it, becomes irrelevant when they just max up and take out my switch and so negates smart/high risk:reward play against sweepers.

The entire team has to be built around beating the dynamax the opponent chooses to use.


On a side note, dynamax also needs to be removed from Random Battles where I think it is even worse for the meta game than OU.
 
Can't Dynamax and Gigantamax be voted separatedly?

Dynamax is broken, unpredictable thing that can boost dangerous threats.

However, GMax is not unpredictable and is manageable. Only gen 1 trash and new pokemons can GMax, nothing so overpowered like the Max Airstream Dracozolt/Gyarados, Max Knuckle/Geyser Barraskewda, etc.

It can even help the GMax pokemon. Only 3 are OU (until GMax toxtricity arrives).
 
Can't Dynamax and Gigantamax be voted separatedly?

Dynamax is broken, unpredictable thing that can boost dangerous threats.

However, GMax is not unpredictable and is manageable. Only gen 1 trash and new pokemons can GMax, nothing so overpowered like the Max Airstream Dracozolt/Gyarados, Max Knuckle/Geyser Barraskewda, etc.

It can even help the GMax pokemon. Only 3 are OU (until GMax toxtricity arrives).
eventually it will get banned anyway, grim and hat are top threats and gmax will just be dumb to deal with. its the same deal with dynamax.
giving those mons the ability to dyanamax while the others can't will make them overpowered in the long run. not sure what u mean by manageable but its not, gmax mons can still snowball very easily, hat and grimm are some are the most used gmax mons. the only aspect that has been taken away from them is the unpredictability and how similar they are to megas. it would just turn into gmax checking gmax like whats happening now and ur not even turning into account how other tiers will be impacted, because in the lower tiers its gonna be havoc.
 

McCoolDude

Just a fat shark
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Can someone look at this replay and tell me why they think Dynamaxing is broken...https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1021344605
Let's take this point for point. Before we get started: a replay against a team of mostly UU mons versus the literal best dynamax abuser, in which one player telegraphs every attack, dynamaxes a seeded and intimidated mon, and lets his setup sweeper die to a literal leech seed for nothing, is not a good example.
If you have problems with Dynamaxed Gyarados, then wouldn't it be better to just put a max defense Ferrothorn against it. It blocks Gyarados as well.
The reasons I like Dynamaxing and don't think it should be banned :
1. It boosts accuracy of Pokemon. So, previously unused Pokemon can now be used properly. Take Noivern for example. It had accuracy problems with Hurricane and Draco Meteor. With Dynamaxing if you can predict properly, then with Max Airstrike you can boost it's speed and it becomes a counter for Dragapult as well which without Dynamaxing isn't really possible. Without Dynamaxing, a lot of the unused mons will just go back to being unused. By trying to ban Dynamaxing you are simply taking away the opportunity of other players who might make their seemingly weak Pokemon (and Pokemon with whom they have emotional attachment to) more viable via Dynamaxing. Isn't Pokemon supposed to be a game that the players are supposed to be playing with their favourite Pokemon? By banning Dynamaxing you are just promoting the same set of 10 different Pokemon in the metagame without diversity which is really annoying to have.
A straight boost will always favor stronger mons over weaker mons. There's a reason Noivern isn't one of the big users of Dmax right now, and that reason is it's simply not as strong as the other dmax users. Dynamaxing can make a bad mon viable, but it makes good mons busted.

An appeal to emotion in a competitive format isn't worth addressing. Smogon's rules do not prevent you from using your favorite mons in another format.

2. Dynamaxing isn't an autowin mechanic. I have seen +2 Dynamaxed Gyarados get blocked by Ferrothorn or Toxapex. So, why ban a mechanic which isn't broken? Plus it's only for 3 turns.
A +2 Dynamax Gyarados is walled by literally nothing unless it is running a bad set.

+2 252 Atk Gyarados Max Airstream vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

The best pex can do to a +2 dmax gyarados is haze it and die, assuming it came in at 100% with no hazards.

3 turns are enough to break a team. Hell, one really good turn is often enough to break a team in a normal match.

3. It's still too early to ban an early mechanic. A lot of the Pokemon's moves and their abilities haven't even been released yet. How do you know that those new Pokemon wouldn't find counters in Dynamaxed Pokemon. If you already ban a new mechanic before all the Pokemon like Zeraora or Kyurem get released then you wouldn't even know how the metagame would have played out and what kind of counters you would get with Dynamaxing in it.
They are all released via datamines. People have been researching and playing the meta around the clock for over a month now. When, exactly, would it have been enough time?

4. Dynamaxing forces you to plan ahead. Imagine if the opposing team is a rain team with Peliper gone in the opposing team and you still have Dracovish on the opposing side with Fishious Rend and that too with Rain. On top of that you know that your Dynamaxed Pokemon can't take out the opposing team's Pokemon before Dracovish is released. So, what do you do? You use Max Flare before your Dynamaxing ends so that you can nerf Dracovish's Fishious Rend by bringing out harsh sunlight and counter it with a Pokemon that is Neutral to Dracovish's Fishious Rend. Without Dynamaxing, you are just getting swept by Barracuda and Dracovish under the rain(under those circumstances). So, why ban a game mechanic which is meant to neutralize the metagame?
Dynamaxing absolutely does not force you to plan ahead, it's almost exclusively an in-the-moment, matchup-dependent answer or spiral. Also, sun is a piss poor answer to dracovish as is (not to mention, "broken checks broken" is explicitly called out, numerous times, in every suspect thread as a non-starter).



So, no ban to Dynamaxing from my side. Some of you might just say, yeah that's just your opinion. Get a GXE of 81% and vote against it. But, duh! Even if I get a GXE of 81% and vote against the ban with all the other players voting for the ban my vote would make much difference now would it?
That is how voting works, yes.
 
As everything is already said, I just want to add that basically every mon can run weakness policy thanks to the dynamax bulk. That means you, like me, can sweep teams in OU with Drifblim.
No metagame with banned Baton Pass and Drifblim sweep can be a healthy metagame. That`s all
And thank Arceus we can ban Baton Pass and most importantly, Minimize. This thing on Battle Spot rules is already scary and annoying enough to face in SM, with Dynamax added he must be F* terrifying (I don't care much, unless we get a GOOD game soon with the full dex, actually interesting gameplay and actual balance patches, I won't touch Pokemon beyond SM).
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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Since this is towards the end of the page I figured it would be okay to respond since future people will ask this question.
Can't Dynamax and Gigantamax be voted separatedly?

Dynamax is broken, unpredictable thing that can boost dangerous threats.

However, GMax is not unpredictable and is manageable. Only gen 1 trash and new pokemons can GMax, nothing so overpowered like the Max Airstream Dracozolt/Gyarados, Max Knuckle/Geyser Barraskewda, etc.

It can even help the GMax pokemon. Only 3 are OU (until GMax toxtricity arrives).
As some have mentioned above Gigantamax Pokemon are still very problematic. At first glance they may not seem as immediately strong as Dynamaxed Gyarados, but many of them pose big problems for teams still. Ignoring Dynamax banned and Gigantamax allowed for a brief moment:

- Gengar gets a more powerful Shadow Ball and can trap opponents like Toxapex. Not a lot of walls appreciate facing Gigantamax Gengar and some like Mandibuzz have to fear +2 Focus Blast or Sludge Wave.

- Snorlax gets the benefit of an efficient recycled Chesto Berry 50% of the time. This and the addition of Darkest Lariat makes Curse Snorlax fairly potent against teams that lack a strong Fighting-type.

This addresses some of the Gen 1 """trash""".

Now for the other reasons of not going forward with this method (going back to the assumption Gigantamax is allowed):

- Gigantamax Pokemon still benefit from other Max moves. Gengar for example can still use Max Ooze to boost its SpA. Hatterene still gets Psychic Terrain by using Max Mindstorm. The effects, again, don't seem immediate like it does with Dynamax, but they still can add up.

- Gigantamax still gets the HP boost, making them more difficult to KO (under most circumstances).

- No defensive counterplay with a defensive Dynamax. This option is completely thrown out the window, whereas with both allowed you may stand a chance sometimes with a defensive Dynamax.

In conclusion, keeping Gigantamax Pokemon is not ideal if Dynamax is also banned.
 
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I guess I'll just say my piece since everyone else is... Dynamax is an interesting mechanic. It's also incredibly dumb on multiple levels, both as the worst cheap gimmick mechanic introduced so far in Pokemon and with the complete lack of balance. I choose not to participate in the suspect for several reasons. The main one being that I kind of don't want to vote against it. I don't want to say you shouldn't vote against it. I just don't want to do it myself. And yet I don't really want to vote to keep it, either. So I just decided to abstain from the entire process.

I am probably in the minority that I actually sort of like Dynamax because it allows you to do things that are otherwise sort of difficult. It gives access to easier Terrain and Weather setting, all of which are sort of limited in a regular team builder. This is especially true after Dex-it, where options are more limited and natural Terrain Setters in particular mostly kind of stink. I actually like being able to break a choice lock to break a wall with a surprise coverage move. And it isn't always a good thing, as what happens when Choice Scarf G-Darmanitan wrecks its Dynamax cousin with Flare Blitz because Dynmax took away the speed boost. There is a bit more give and take there then people like to give credit for. From a team building perspective, Dynamax increases what is possible. It allows you to potentially fit more into the restrictive 6 pokemon team format. I hope this doesn't get lost in all this.

At the same time, I can't really justify it not being banned. It's completely broken. The biggest problem to me is the stat buffs. They make the offensive potential of Dynamax way too potent. Offensive Dynamax builds are so oppressive that they basically render the idea of most support and defensive dynamax builds obsolete in comparison, killing a lot of the potential diversity the mechanic should have had. Why create something different like a support Dynamax when you can just abuse the heck out of Max Airstream Gyarados? This is most of what makes it truly bad to me. That and the snowballing from said stat boosting.

I think the immunities of Dynamax are a little overstated. While some of the immunities like Encore and Destiny Bond are stupid, immunity to weight based moves and phasing makes sense from both a thematic and mechanical standpoint. There is still some counter options play left to us. Protect and like moves can be used to stall a little. They don't prevent damage against Dynamax attacks, but they do decrease the damage done to you. You can still inflict status. Sleep and paralyses still work. I have used Yawn to prevent Dynamax sweeps before. You either force them out or they stay in and fall asleep. Is this enough? Probably not by itself. I would say they went overboard giving immunities and abilities to this mechanic in the hopes of making it effective, and it worked too well.

If I were to balance Dynamax, I would take away some of the immunities that make less sense like Encore and change the effects of most of the moves that give stat buffs to pokemon (Like Max Knuckle) and replace them with something else. Like maybe Max Airstream sets a Tailwind instead, which increases speed but for a limited number of turns and can't be stacked to +6. Maybe Max Ooze poisons the opposing pokemon instead of raising special attack. Maybe Max Knuckle can clear hazards or something. I think those are actually the main 3 problematic moves. I would also make sure no general stat buffing could happen under Dynamax and stat buffing abilities like Moody, Speed Boost, and Unburden didn't activate while a pokemon that was in Dynamax or Gigantimax form. Same with abilities that have weather boosting effects like Swift Swim.

Unfortunately, you can't really separate any of this out from the mechanic now. It's either all or nothing. Since many of the arguments about Dynamax being game breaking are right, I can't really argue not to ban it. I won't be upset to see it go. But I will be a little sad that the potential of the mechanic is lost just because the balance was wrong.
 
Unfortunately, you can't really separate any of this out from the mechanic now. It's either all or nothing. Since many of the arguments about Dynamax being game breaking are right, I can't really argue not to ban it. I won't be upset to see it go. But I will be a little sad that the potential of the mechanic is lost just because the balance was wrong.
Welcome to Pokémon my friend, your arguments look EXACTLY like the ones I used for Aegislash back then (And for the record, I agree that he is a bit too powerful for gen6-7 OU, despite personally wanting him in due to how tactical the game becomes with him in play, wich is why years later I still ask for a retest, even at the cost of dropping King's Shield and thus nerfing to the ground half of it's sets).

This has always been and will always be the problem until we finnally get fed up with TrollFreak being a trash company and decide "hey, this is unofficial and we are the ones coding it, so why not just apply the 'if you want it done right do it yourself' and get it done with like we did to great effect with the Sleep Clause?". From then the solution becomes obvious, just regularly patch the game ourselves whenever something gets out of line.

(And if we ever do it, I'd say that the first priority should be adding a special warning to items and abilities that significantly change Speed like the weather boosters or Unburden, and especially Choice Scarf, wich personally I find extremely irritating to play against since you can't ever know if the enemy pokemon might outspeed yours until you take the gamble and watch if he one-shots your mon before you can pay him back in kind).
 
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