Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

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Guard

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I don't believe Mega Blastoise warrants a quickban due to several reasons.

First and foremost, Mega Blastoise needs a turn of setup to make progress. This, combined with the fact that there are a lot of Pokemon that can take at least one hit from it at +2 and hit/cripple back, means it is relegated to a late game cleaner in most matchups, since the first turn is a free switchin opportunity for its checks.

I also want to stress that Mega Blastoise does have a sufficient amount of defensive checks, contrary to what people claim. BO has AV Magearna, Tapu Fini and (AV) Tapu Bulu. Balance has SpD TWave Clefable, SpD Haze Toxapex, Clear Smog Gastrodon, Tapu Fini and AV Grass Knot Tangrowth. Stall has Pyukumuku and Sash Dugtrio. The former two playstyles are also free to slot in priority (MLop, MMawile, Band Zygarde, Band Genesect) to proof themselves further.

Lastly, revenge killing Mega Blastoise is not impossible. There are four Scarfers that are able to achieve this feat: Grass Knot Greninja, Tapu Koko, Ditto and Punishment Weavile. If Mega Blastoise opts for a modest nature, Kartana and Serperior achieve this feat too.

However, I do acknowledge Mega Blastoise is able to overcome most of its checks with hazards, trapping support, Screens and Dark Pulse flinches and hence I believe there might be arguments for a potential suspect test in the future.
 
guardsweeper sniped me so now i have to completely change my post :(

Like Guardsweeper has stated, I do not believe Mega Blastoise fits the criteria to get quickbanned. While it certainly got a lot better since the Dynamax ban, since Pokemon can't just dynamax to live a hit from +2 MegaStoise, its biggest problems are still here.

Whenever I used Mega Blastoise, or faced opposing Mega Blastoise, one problem that seems to occur more often than not is the actual lack of opportunities to set up. This is because of the fact that Shell Smash, outside of boosting its offenses, also lowers its defenses. This makes setting up against slower Pokemon, like Aegislash, Melmetal or Tyranitar way more threatening for it, as the amount of damage Mega Blastoise takes in the process allows other Pokemon to pick it off (Scarfers, priority users like Mega Lopunny).
Now here's the tricky part: Mega Blastoise with screens. Mega Blastoise has a lot more setup opportunities behind screens than when it's not behind screens (this goes for most sweepers, it's not something that's unique to Mega Blastoise). I will agree with the fact that Mega Blastoise can definitely sweep unprepared teams with relative ease, and it doesn't necessarily require the smartest Mega Blastoise user to do that. However, the keyword here is unprepared. I think the main reason why Mega Blastoise seems so dumb broken right now is because lots of team simply don't prepare for it enough. I will list some counterplay, that aren't too niche, that I've used personally or have seen.

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Tapu Fini
Tapu Fini can stomach any attack Mega Blastoise throws at it, and either get rid of its boosts with Haze, or 2HKO with Moonblast.

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Clefable
SpDef Unaware Clefable can, like Tapu Fini, stomach any hit since it ignores the Shell Smash boosts. It can then either choose to cripple Mega Blastoise with Thunder Wave, or attack it with Moonblast.

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Magearna
AV Magearna is a good check against Mega Blastoise, as it doesn't take much from +2 Aura Sphere and can dish out a lot of damage in return with either Fleur Cannon or Volt Switch.

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Azumarill
Azumarill, specifically AV, eats Mega Blastoise for breakfast. It resists all its moves and 2HKO's with Play Rough in return.

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Faster Scarfers
Like Guardsweeper listed in his previous post, these are all viable Scarfers that can outrun Mega Blastoise after a Shell Smash boost and OHKO in return (note that it does require Punishment Weavile and Grass Knot Greninja).

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Strong priority users
Priority users are a really good way of stopping Mega Blastoise going on a sweep. Since Mega Blastoise most likely has taken damage already while it was setting up, it's not a rare scenario that it's in range of the likes of Fake Out + Quick Attack Mega Lopunny, CB ESpeed Zygarde, ESpeed Genesect or Sucker Punch Mega Mawile & Bisharp. Other strong priority users, like Water Shuriken Ash Greninja, can take it out from a low range of health despite the resistance.

Outside of this you have some soft counters that shouldn't be your only way of dealing with Mega Blastoise, but can work regardless. These Pokemon include SpDef Mirror Coat or Toxic Pyukumuku, AV Tangrowth, Sash Dugtrio, SpDef Haze Toxapex, SpDef Clear Smog Gastrodon, TWave Grimmsnarl / Thundurus (Prankster) and Thunder Wave Chansey.

Despite all this, Mega Blastoise is still really threatening to a lot of teams. It may even be the case that despite all these forms of counterplay, it may still put too much pressure on teambuilding and in practice. However, I don't think it's quickban worthy, but personally would probably be up for a suspect somewhere in the future.
 
There’s been alot of discussion regarding M-Toise, but I wanna highlight underrated/anti-meta picks for a moment.

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Centiskorch @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 172 SpD / 84 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Knock Off/Power Whip
- Fire Lash

Centiskorch is a great check and or counter to Tran, LO Clefable, Volcarona, Genesect, GDarm, M-Scizor, and SG Magearna. What seperates it from Heatran as a defensive fire type is that it takes neutral from ground and resists fighting. Making it a better SG Mage and HP Ground Volcarona check than Tran. It also has the blessed Knock Off and has grass coverage. Knock gives it high utility, letting it removes items like Specs and Lefties from incoming Greninjas and Finis while also scouting for Z-crystals. Power Whip can be used instead of Knock to lets it lure Gastrodon, Wash, Toad, Fini, and Ash Gren without needing a Z-move to do so. It also lures M-Toise into trying to sweep as Power Whip OHKOs M-Toise after Shell Smash without investment

0 Atk Centiskorch Power Whip vs. -2 104 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 332-392 (102.1 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

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Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Scald
- Circle Throw
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Underrated bulky water. Sponging hits and phazing out a wide variety of the meta. Tran, M-Toise, non Psychic Volc, Galar-Darm, Dracovish, non-Flyinium Lando, and Ash Greninja. Cause of the nature of Circle Throw it means this sets issue of being passive isn’t as harming. It works well with hazard stacking balance as it lets it phaze out incoming defoggers.

As for the Mega-Blastoise discussion. I think more time is needed in order to tell if it is still broken or not. Mega-Toise has fantastic bulk coupled with its pure water typing letting it come in frequently. In screens, even Leaf Blade from Kartana isn’t enough to OHKO it. However mons like Fini, AV Mage, Chansey, and Pex as well as scarf Greninja and Koko might be enough to keep Toise off the edge. However I feel what is OP and overcentralizing rn is Zygarde. Zygarde is near impossible to fully prep for. Its main counterplay options, most notably Unaware Clefable hates getting poisoned by it, and due to Heal Bells low pp, it will eventually be pp stalled by it and toxic’d again. Zygarde’s bulk in unmatched and due to the combination of its bulk, Thousand Arrows, Coil, DD, and ESpeed, it is almost impossible to check/counter every set and variation of each set.
 
After looking at the responses, I would fine with a suspect and I do think I was a bit harsh on it. I made that post to get people talking about it because of how it effects team building. I guess a suspect wouldn't hurt then. Although I am questioning "counter play" like Scarf Punishment Weavile, AV Azumarill, and AV Tapu Bulu as "healthy."
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
There’s been alot of discussion regarding M-Toise, but I wanna highlight underrated/anti-meta picks for a moment.

35005509-5834-439B-B211-A498B3CFA56A.png

Centiskorch @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 172 SpD / 84 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Knock Off/Power Whip
- Fire Lash

Centiskorch is a great check and or counter to Tran, LO Clefable, Volcarona, Genesect, GDarm, M-Scizor, and SG Magearna. What seperates it from Heatran as a defensive fire type is that it takes neutral from ground and resists fighting. Making it a better SG Mage and HP Ground Volcarona check than Tran. It also has the blessed Knock Off and has grass coverage. Knock gives it high utility, letting it removes items like Specs and Lefties from incoming Greninjas and Finis while also scouting for Z-crystals. Power Whip can be used instead of Knock to lets it lure Gastrodon, Wash, Toad, Fini, and Ash Gren without needing a Z-move to do so. It also lures M-Toise into trying to sweep as Power Whip OHKOs M-Toise after Shell Smash without investment

0 Atk Centiskorch Power Whip vs. -2 104 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 332-392 (102.1 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Really quickly I'd like to address this, because it's not 100% correct. Shell Smash only puts you at -1 Defense not -2, so the calc actually looks like this.

0 Atk Centiskorch Power Whip vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 248-294 (82.9 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now that's not bad at all and you could probably shift a couple EVs to attack to make that better, but it doesn't guarantee absolute removal of Mega Toise. There's also the inherent risk of Mega Blastoise just clicking Hydro Pump (which is somewhat rare but it is run frequently enough to keep in mind) instead of setting up, in which case this happens.

252 SpA Blastoise-Mega Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Centiskorch: 308-366 (76.2 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

meanwhile Power Whip maxes out at like 66%, and that's assuming you have had no chip done at all and are awake so you don't risk Sleep Talking into Fire Lash or something. Centiskorch might have some sort of defensive niche, but I wouldn't want the bug dealing with Mega Toise at all.

Now then, onto The Mega analysis Part Three, because I forgot a couple of actually really solid Megas and I felt weird about not having them.

:Alakazam-Mega: Not really sure how I forgot about this thing the first two times, and it seems like ladder has as well. The Psychic Terrain nerfs really hurt the Psyspam playstyle that Mega Zam was often slotted on, and threats such as Genesect and Scarf Darm give it new headaches. But oh wow, you can't overlook this things positives. That speed tier is amazing once again, it has varied coverage options that let you decide what you want to beat, and it gained several new friends in pivots that can get it in safely. A great choice for a team looking for a decent late game sweeper.

:Latias-Mega: (Latias) I've barely seen any Mega Latias and honestly I'm not really sure why. It has a very valuable offensive and defensive niche, most notably with a Calm Mind set which can take an exorbitant amount of hits from the Special Side while also posing a big offensive threat as well. Still a very solid Pokemon, although new metagame trends hamper it a bit.

:Latios-Mega: (Latios) I've seen even less of these, probably cuz it isn't quite as good. It's mixed sets are still theoretically pretty solid though, especially since targets for its EQ like Heatran and Tyranitar are still present in the metagame.

:Pinsir-Mega: Eh, I dunno about this one. I've kinda always been of the opinion that the amount of support it needs to do its thing isn't worth it, but it's hard to deny its potency if it picks up a Swords Dance. It also has a really tough choice between Earthquake and Close Combat in the last slot; CC allows you to hit things like Ferrothorn harder as well as preventing you from being totally stuffed by the Steel/Flying mons, as well as any Rotom forme that comes to call. Earthquake, on the other hand, hits Aegislash and Mega Metagross harder. A tough call that doesn't have an easy answer.

:Aerodactyl-Mega: We're getting firmly into "Yes, you COULD use this, but why would you?" territory now. Mega Aero doesn't hit hard enough nor is it fast enough to justify a slot onto a team. That sounds weird because it has 150 speed and 130 attack, but its really easy to revenge kill as well as being laughed at by a myriad of defensive Pokemon that we have. And its weak to SR. Not a good combination of traits.

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 158-188 (52.4 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's not good enough.

:Ampharos-Mega: Only remotely usable on Trick Room, and I would much rather use Mega Camerupt, who's viability is questionable as it is. Sorry Ampharos.

:Sharpedo-Mega: This is a massive casualty of the anti-Dracovish effort, as a lot of things that beat Vish naturally destroy this. With proper support it theoretically becomes an interesting late game cleaner...although it really needs a huge amount of support because if it doesn't kill whatever is in front of it it's gonna get Revenge Killed. It could work on heavy hazard stacking teams with Zone support I suppose, but at that point just use a better cleaner and take the pressure off of the rest of your team.

:Absol-Mega: Too frail, no super notable resistances, massive coverage issues, and not enough immediate power. Any questions?

:Steelix-Mega: Body Press is an interesting tool for a lot of defensive Pokemon, and Steelix is one of the biggest beneficiaries of it. Curse Sets could potentially put in some work now...except for the fact that Mega-Aggron exists and has an overall superior defensive typing and ability. Seriously, Ground/Steel is a fine typing on something like Excadrill but it really works against Steelix here. Aggron was already barely dealing with things like Darm but now you've got a mon thats neutral to Darm's STAB instead of resisting it as well as weak to Fishious Rend? No thank you.

:Beedrill-Mega: A fast offensive pivot set that has the ability to push damage on a lot of things you wouldn't think it would be able to like Ferrothorn might look nice...but then you realize that Scarf Genesect exists and is just better while also not taking up your Mega Slot.

:Pidgeot-Mega: This was outclassed by Torn-T before, and now Torn can hold Heavy Duty Boots. Enough said, really.

:Sceptile-Mega: This honestly could have been a somewhat interesting revenge killer and pseudo-wallbreaker but man that typing is rough. Its STABs are walled exceptionally easily and good luck finding a place to get in because that typing has some really exploitable weaknesses.

:Banette-Mega: Lol

:Altaria-Mega: Altaria is naturally going to struggle in a metagame where the two best Pokemon are arguably Mega-Metagross and Genesect. Also Clefable still exists, and its weak to a lot of the new stuff. Not a good choice at all.

:Audino-Mega: I guess you could use it as a Trick Room setter or something but like...Cresselia exists so I'm not sure why you would.

:Glalie-Mega: Last but not least we come to Glalie who...actually isn't the worst thing in the world! Ice/Ground coverage forces switches on a lot of Pokemon (especially with Freeze-Dry potentially in the mix) which gives Glalie plenty of opportunities to set up spikes. It struggles against Mega-Metagross and Genesect as well as a lot of new stuff but Spikes as well as a Refridgerate boosted Explosion means that this could potentially put in....some work, probably as strict Scarf Dracovish support because it actually threatens a lot of what beats it as well as laying hazards for it. I wouldn't call it viable, really, but at least it could potentially have...some purpose in the metagame.

Pretty sure I got all of them that aren't banned. Happy building!
 
Really quickly I'd like to address this, because it's not 100% correct. Shell Smash only puts you at -1 Defense not -2, so the calc actually looks like this.

0 Atk Centiskorch Power Whip vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 248-294 (82.9 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now that's not bad at all and you could probably shift a couple EVs to attack to make that better, but it doesn't guarantee absolute removal of Mega Toise. There's also the inherent risk of Mega Blastoise just clicking Hydro Pump (which is somewhat rare but it is run frequently enough to keep in mind) instead of setting up, in which case this happens.

252 SpA Blastoise-Mega Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Centiskorch: 308-366 (76.2 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

meanwhile Power Whip maxes out at like 66%, and that's assuming you have had no chip done at all and are awake so you don't risk Sleep Talking into Fire Lash or something. Centiskorch might have some sort of defensive niche, but I wouldn't want the bug dealing with Mega Toise at all.

Now then, onto The Mega analysis Part Three, because I forgot a couple of actually really solid Megas and I felt weird about not having them.

:Alakazam-Mega: Not really sure how I forgot about this thing the first two times, and it seems like ladder has as well. The Psychic Terrain nerfs really hurt the Psyspam playstyle that Mega Zam was often slotted on, and threats such as Genesect and Scarf Darm give it new headaches. But oh wow, you can't overlook this things positives. That speed tier is amazing once again, it has varied coverage options that let you decide what you want to beat, and it gained several new friends in pivots that can get it in safely. A great choice for a team looking for a decent late game sweeper.

:Latias-Mega: (Latias) I've barely seen any Mega Latias and honestly I'm not really sure why. It has a very valuable offensive and defensive niche, most notably with a Calm Mind set which can take an exorbitant amount of hits from the Special Side while also posing a big offensive threat as well. Still a very solid Pokemon, although new metagame trends hamper it a bit.

:Latios-Mega: (Latios) I've seen even less of these, probably cuz it isn't quite as good. It's mixed sets are still theoretically pretty solid though, especially since targets for its EQ like Heatran and Tyranitar are still present in the metagame.

:Pinsir-Mega: Eh, I dunno about this one. I've kinda always been of the opinion that the amount of support it needs to do its thing isn't worth it, but it's hard to deny its potency if it picks up a Swords Dance. It also has a really tough choice between Earthquake and Close Combat in the last slot; CC allows you to hit things like Ferrothorn harder as well as preventing you from being totally stuffed by the Steel/Flying mons, as well as any Rotom forme that comes to call. Earthquake, on the other hand, hits Aegislash and Mega Metagross harder. A tough call that doesn't have an easy answer.

:Aerodactyl-Mega: We're getting firmly into "Yes, you COULD use this, but why would you?" territory now. Mega Aero doesn't hit hard enough nor is it fast enough to justify a slot onto a team. That sounds weird because it has 150 speed and 130 attack, but its really easy to revenge kill as well as being laughed at by a myriad of defensive Pokemon that we have. And its weak to SR. Not a good combination of traits.

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 158-188 (52.4 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's not good enough.

:Ampharos-Mega: Only remotely usable on Trick Room, and I would much rather use Mega Camerupt, who's viability is questionable as it is. Sorry Ampharos.

:Sharpedo-Mega: This is a massive casualty of the anti-Dracovish effort, as a lot of things that beat Vish naturally destroy this. With proper support it theoretically becomes an interesting late game cleaner...although it really needs a huge amount of support because if it doesn't kill whatever is in front of it it's gonna get Revenge Killed. It could work on heavy hazard stacking teams with Zone support I suppose, but at that point just use a better cleaner and take the pressure off of the rest of your team.

:Absol-Mega: Too frail, no super notable resistances, massive coverage issues, and not enough immediate power. Any questions?

:Steelix-Mega: Body Press is an interesting tool for a lot of defensive Pokemon, and Steelix is one of the biggest beneficiaries of it. Curse Sets could potentially put in some work now...except for the fact that Mega-Aggron exists and has an overall superior defensive typing and ability. Seriously, Ground/Steel is a fine typing on something like Excadrill but it really works against Steelix here. Aggron was already barely dealing with things like Darm but now you've got a mon thats neutral to Darm's STAB instead of resisting it as well as weak to Fishious Rend? No thank you.

:Beedrill-Mega: A fast offensive pivot set that has the ability to push damage on a lot of things you wouldn't think it would be able to like Ferrothorn might look nice...but then you realize that Scarf Genesect exists and is just better while also not taking up your Mega Slot.

:Pidgeot-Mega: This was outclassed by Torn-T before, and now Torn can hold Heavy Duty Boots. Enough said, really.

:Sceptile-Mega: This honestly could have been a somewhat interesting revenge killer and pseudo-wallbreaker but man that typing is rough. Its STABs are walled exceptionally easily and good luck finding a place to get in because that typing has some really exploitable weaknesses.

:Banette-Mega: Lol

:Altaria-Mega: Altaria is naturally going to struggle in a metagame where the two best Pokemon are arguably Mega-Metagross and Genesect. Also Clefable still exists, and its weak to a lot of the new stuff. Not a good choice at all.

:Audino-Mega: I guess you could use it as a Trick Room setter or something but like...Cresselia exists so I'm not sure why you would.

:Glalie-Mega: Last but not least we come to Glalie who...actually isn't the worst thing in the world! Ice/Ground coverage forces switches on a lot of Pokemon (especially with Freeze-Dry potentially in the mix) which gives Glalie plenty of opportunities to set up spikes. It struggles against Mega-Metagross and Genesect as well as a lot of new stuff but Spikes as well as a Refridgerate boosted Explosion means that this could potentially put in....some work, probably as strict Scarf Dracovish support because it actually threatens a lot of what beats it as well as laying hazards for it. I wouldn't call it viable, really, but at least it could potentially have...some purpose in the metagame.

Pretty sure I got all of them that aren't banned. Happy building!
Just a quick note. Heavy Duty Boots prevents Centi from taking hazard effects.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
Just a quick note. Heavy Duty Boots prevents Centi from taking hazard effects.
You're still relying on it to check a lot of things judging by the above posts, so it's gonna take chip throughout a match. Or be forced to Rest, in which case its a crap shoot as to whether you are able to use Power Whip on Mega Toise in the first place.
 
Blastoisinite is definitely not quick ban worthy, but it’s easily suspect (and will likely get banned anyways).
Mega Blastoise does have checks and even counters, but only a few of them have access to good recovery, making it hard for them to be healthy enough to survive. And even some counters entirely rely on having an Assault Vest, which is never a good sign since they can be knocked off or tricked.
The only really reliable counters to M-Blast are Specially Defensive Clefable, which gets dunked on by either Rain support with Hydro Pump or some Hazards, and Pyukumuku, which pretty much counters (nearly) everything.

I would also like to mention that Mega Blastoise is great for Rain Teams as an alternative to Mega Swampert. Turns out Water Spam is really good.
Dracovish RENDERS most walls out of existence while in Rain.
Ash-Greninja is powerful cleaner also in rain and provides spike support, and then also deal with the pesky Water Immune Pokemon like Seismitoad, Gastordon, and Jellicent.
And Pelipper can provide rain for all 3 [Mega Blastoise, Dracovish, and Ash-Greninja] of them, making their water attacks, while providing a more defensive back bone to the team. And thanks to U-turn, it can bring in 1 of them on an enemy without much prediction.
And then you can put many different things the remaining team slots, such as Screens or other Hazard setters.
 
How does one prep a bulky offense core for these threats? I'm really unfamiliar with them as they're kinda new. Vish and Darm from gen 8, MetagrossM , Zygarde and BlastoiseM. It seems like the usual gen7 OU fare that I can look up doesn't quite work on these monsters.
 
guardsweeper sniped me so now i have to completely change my post :(

Like Guardsweeper has stated, I do not believe Mega Blastoise fits the criteria to get quickbanned. While it certainly got a lot better since the Dynamax ban, since Pokemon can't just dynamax to live a hit from +2 MegaStoise, its biggest problems are still here.

Whenever I used Mega Blastoise, or faced opposing Mega Blastoise, one problem that seems to occur more often than not is the actual lack of opportunities to set up. This is because of the fact that Shell Smash, outside of boosting its offenses, also lowers its defenses. This makes setting up against slower Pokemon, like Aegislash, Melmetal or Tyranitar way more threatening for it, as the amount of damage Mega Blastoise takes in the process allows other Pokemon to pick it off (Scarfers, priority users like Mega Lopunny).
Now here's the tricky part: Mega Blastoise with screens. Mega Blastoise has a lot more setup opportunities behind screens than when it's not behind screens (this goes for most sweepers, it's not something that's unique to Mega Blastoise). I will agree with the fact that Mega Blastoise can definitely sweep unprepared teams with relative ease, and it doesn't necessarily require the smartest Mega Blastoise user to do that. However, the keyword here is unprepared. I think the main reason why Mega Blastoise seems so dumb broken right now is because lots of team simply don't prepare for it enough. I will list some counterplay, that aren't too niche, that I've used personally or have seen.

View attachment 218157Tapu Fini
Tapu Fini can stomach any attack Mega Blastoise throws at it, and either get rid of its boosts with Haze, or 2HKO with Moonblast.

View attachment 218158Clefable
SpDef Unaware Clefable can, like Tapu Fini, stomach any hit since it ignores the Shell Smash boosts. It can then either choose to cripple Mega Blastoise with Thunder Wave, or attack it with Moonblast.

View attachment 218159Magearna
AV Magearna is a good check against Mega Blastoise, as it doesn't take much from +2 Aura Sphere and can dish out a lot of damage in return with either Fleur Cannon or Volt Switch.

View attachment 218160Azumarill
Azumarill, specifically AV, eats Mega Blastoise for breakfast. It resists all its moves and 2HKO's with Play Rough in return.

View attachment 218161View attachment 218162View attachment 218163View attachment 218164Faster Scarfers
Like Guardsweeper listed in his previous post, these are all viable Scarfers that can outrun Mega Blastoise after a Shell Smash boost and OHKO in return (note that it does require Punishment Weavile and Grass Knot Greninja).

View attachment 218165View attachment 218166View attachment 218167View attachment 218169View attachment 218168Strong priority users
Priority users are a really good way of stopping Mega Blastoise going on a sweep. Since Mega Blastoise most likely has taken damage already while it was setting up, it's not a rare scenario that it's in range of the likes of Fake Out + Quick Attack Mega Lopunny, CB ESpeed Zygarde, ESpeed Genesect or Sucker Punch Mega Mawile & Bisharp. Other strong priority users, like Water Shuriken Ash Greninja, can take it out from a low range of health despite the resistance.

Outside of this you have some soft counters that shouldn't be your only way of dealing with Mega Blastoise, but can work regardless. These Pokemon include SpDef Mirror Coat or Toxic Pyukumuku, AV Tangrowth, Sash Dugtrio, SpDef Haze Toxapex, SpDef Clear Smog Gastrodon, TWave Grimmsnarl / Thundurus (Prankster) and Thunder Wave Chansey.

Despite all this, Mega Blastoise is still really threatening to a lot of teams. It may even be the case that despite all these forms of counterplay, it may still put too much pressure on teambuilding and in practice. However, I don't think it's quickban worthy, but personally would probably be up for a suspect somewhere in the future.
Neutral on this issue since this thread has gotten stale at but the 'checks' you presented dont really help your argument. Tapu Fini is quite honestly not that good anymore, its previous niche (a defogger that beats gren and tran) is thrown out the window when he defogs, he cripples his unique defensive utility. Pex is better in so many situations.

Specially Defensive Unaware Clef is....odd, to say the least, and there are way more physical setup sweepers than special setup sweepers.

AV Azumarill is not good outside of specific teams cause it's honestly really easy to dunk on.

Mega Mawile and Bisharp are not reliable 1v1s to Blastoise at all, it just turns into a Sucker Punch mindgame which Blastoise can win. Gren relies on quite a bit of prior damage.

When we're relying on Scarf Weavile, Scarf Dragapult and Scarf Tapu Koko to take out Mega Blastoise I think it's pretty much a given that his speed tier is problematic.
 
Neutral on this issue since this thread has gotten stale at but the 'checks' you presented dont really help your argument. Tapu Fini is quite honestly not that good anymore, its previous niche (a defogger that beats gren and tran) is thrown out the window when he defogs, he cripples his unique defensive utility. Pex is better in so many situations.

Specially Defensive Unaware Clef is....odd, to say the least, and there are way more physical setup sweepers than special setup sweepers.

AV Azumarill is not good outside of specific teams cause it's honestly really easy to dunk on.

Mega Mawile and Bisharp are not reliable 1v1s to Blastoise at all, it just turns into a Sucker Punch mindgame which Blastoise can win. Gren relies on quite a bit of prior damage.

When we're relying on Scarf Weavile, Scarf Dragapult and Scarf Tapu Koko to take out Mega Blastoise I think it's pretty much a given that his speed tier is problematic.
It's true that Tapu Fini isn't as reliable as it used to be, since Defogging away your own terrain can be quite annoying. However, this doesn't fully take away the fact that it's still the best hazard remover that counter Ash Greninja and is a solid check against Heatran. Its ability to annoy stall builds with Taunt + Nature's Madness is quite helpful in a metagame where such builds are becoming increasingly more common. And above all this, it's still the best (if not the best) counter against Mega Blastoise. Toxapex and Tapu Fini aren't even comparable, as they offer different roles in different situations.

How is specially defense unaware Clefable odd, exactly? It offers a reliable check to Pokemon like Mega Blastoise, Kyurem, Specs Dragapult, and BoltBeam Magearna. However, if you still think it's odd, physically defensive still takes on Mega Blastoise quite well, as shown in this calc.
252+ SpA Blastoise-Mega Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 121-143 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

While Azumarill isn't the best Pokemon out there, and is a more niche option to take on Mega Blastoise, the point still stands. It's a reliable counter to any Mega Blastoise set (barring Ice Beam freeze / DPulse flinches, which you have to get a lot of), while also checking Pokemon like Ash Greninja, Heatran, Manaphy and Mega Lati@s. Just don't throw it out and let it take unnecessary damage for no reason. It might be a bit harder to use, but it still offers a good Mega Blastoise counter.

Mega Blastoise can also lose those 50/50's. I know it's not reliable, but Mega Blastoise can only spam Shell Smash to outplay it, which lowers its defenses, meaning it will for sure be in range of Sucker Punch when it loses the 50/50 or other priority in the back. I will admit it's not the most reliable though.

Scarf Weavile and Scarf Tapu Koko are both decent options in the metagame outside of the fact that they outspeed Mega Blastoise. Scarf Koko is able to outspeed Ash Greninja, Dragapult, Mega Lopunny and Scarf Dugtrio, which can be super nice to have for a team. Scarf Weavile, while more niche, outspeeds threats such as Dragapult, +1 Zygarde, +1 Kommo-o, Scarf Kartana and Mega Alakazam. No one mentioned Scarf Dragapult btw.
 
(sorry for double post)

How does one prep a bulky offense core for these threats? I'm really unfamiliar with them as they're kinda new. Vish and Darm from gen 8, MetagrossM , Zygarde and BlastoiseM. It seems like the usual gen7 OU fare that I can look up doesn't quite work on these monsters.
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Rotom-Wash & Heat
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Rotom-Wash and Rotom-Heat resists most of Galarian Darmanitans moves and can either ditch out a lot of damage in return / burn it with Will-O-Wisp. Rotom-Heat is especially nice, since it also resists U-turn, which Rotom-Wash might have more trouble dealing with. Both are also solid Defoggers which can fit on BO teams.

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Slowbro
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While they're weak to U-turn, they're still able to take Galarian Darmanitan on pretty well. If you run regular Slowbro, I advice you to run Rocky Helmet, so that you're able to punish Galarian Darmanitan as it goes for U-turn. This allows you to cripple it throughout the match. Mega Slowbro has a tonne of physical bulk and doesn't really care about U-turn as much.

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Strong priority users
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Strong priority user + a defensive check is most of the time sufficient enough to take on Galarian Darmanitan. Fake Out + Quick Attack Mega Lopunny, Water Shuriken Ash Greninja and Bullet Punch Mega Metagross are able to keep Darmanitan in check throughout most of the time with relative ease. In Mega Metagross' case, it can also pivot into potential Icicle Crash.

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Alomomola
More niche option, but have been using it on certain builds. Doesn't care whatever Galarian Darmanitan does and punishes U-turn with Rocky Helmet. Can also Wish pass with its ginormous HP stat so stuff like potentially Rotom-Heat.

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Water Immunities
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Water immunities are probably the most reliable counterplay to Dracovish, as you don't have to gamble whether it's Scarf or Band. Gastrodon and Seismitoad are the best water immunities, as they also offer other roles for a team such as a Rocker (Seismitoad) or Magearna/Ash Greninja/Heatran check (Gastrodon). Volcanion is also a solid Pokemon with TSpikes support. Jellicent is a bit more niche, but has access to Will-O-Wisp and Strength Sap, which allows it to even beat Crunch variants.

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Tangrowth
Physically defensive Tangrowth is able to take on most Dracovish if you're at full health, and you can either Knock Off or put it to sleep with Sleep Powder.

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Faster Pokemon
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Dracovish relies on outspeeding the oponnent to dish out damage, so outspeeding it is key for some Pokemon. Dragapult is naturally faster than Dracovish (hitting 421 speed as opposed to Dracovish having 409 speed with Scarf) and can kill it with a Dragon move. Scarf Kartana is able to take any hit comfortable and 2HKO with Leaf Blade. Other options such as Scarf Tapu Koko and Mega Alakazam could also work, but are a bit more niche.

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Mega Scizor
Mega Scizor takes on all of its attacks because of its high defense stat + Roost.

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Tangrowth
Physically defensive Tangrowth again, yes. Tangrowth can take any hit (even Ice Punch) and retaliate with either Sleep Powder or Hidden Power Fire to chip it down. Make sure you carry a Rocky Helmet so it gets punished for attacking you.

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Mega Slowbro
Mega Slowbro takes little damage from any of Mega Metagross' attacks, even Thunder Punch, and can retaliate with either Scald or Thunder Wave.

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Trapping
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Both of these Pokemon force huge amounts of chip on Mega Metagross, putting it into range of faster offensive Pokemon to kill it (note that your Magnezone must be Scarf to outspeed it).

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Faster Pokemon
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Faster Pokemon with super effective coverage are most of the time able to take out Mega Metagross after some chip. This pressures Mega Metagross to stay healthy throughout the game.

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Cores of Pokemon
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Since Mega Metagross has a lot of coverage, having a core that can take on most variants is a good option. For example, Mega Metagross often doesn't carry both Zen Headbutt and Thunder Punch on the same set, allowing a core such as Seismitoad/Gastrodon + Corviknight to take it on reliably. Try to figure out which two Pokemon work well together to take it on.

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Tangrowth
Grass Knot or HP Ice Tangrowth is able to take on most Zygarde sets, barring Z-Dragon (which isn't common rn) or some Glare hax.

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Clefable
Unaware Clefable is able to take on boosted Zygarde 9/10 times, unless you get Glare haxed.

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Slowbro
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Takes any hit and can Ice Beam in return (Scald doesn't break sub sometimes).

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Landorus-Therian
Defensive HP Ice Landorus-T can annoy certain Zygarde sets, but isn't always consistent since it doesn't have access to recovery.

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Faster Pokemon / Ice Shard
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If it's not behind a Substitute, you should be able to either revenge kill it with Scarf Greninja or Scarf Darmanitan. Strong Ice Shard users, such as Weavile and Mamoswine, can also pick it off after some chip and stop it from going on a sweep.

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Coffee table says: ''Fuck Zygarde''

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I hope this helped you a bit when it comes to teambuilding, and have fun exploring the meta!
 

Attachments

:Latias-Mega: (Latias) I've barely seen any Mega Latias and honestly I'm not really sure why. It has a very valuable offensive and defensive niche, most notably with a Calm Mind set which can take an exorbitant amount of hits from the Special Side while also posing a big offensive threat as well. Still a very solid Pokemon, although new metagame trends hamper it a bit.

[/QUOTE]

:Reuniclus:

I think the main reason Mega Latias doesn't really see any play is because it has to compete with Reuniclus as a Calm Mind sweeper, especially now that Reuniclus also has access to Stored Power and abuses it far better thanks to the combo with Acid Armor, meaning unlike Mega Latias, Reuniclus can predict a Pursuit trapper coming in and can use AA to avoid being killed when it switches out. It's also worth noting that unlike Mega Latias, Reuniclus is far better in one of the roles that the Double Dance set plays in a stallbreaker because it's immune to status thanks to Magic Guard, meaning any stall mon that isn't Mega Sableye or Calm Mind Unaware Clefable has to just watch in horror as Reuniclus sets up in their faces. Meanwhile, Mega Latias is extremely reliant on Substitute/Reflect Type/Refresh to efficiently break teams as both Toxic and Twave keep it from sweeping. This means you need more support for it in the form of another stallbreaker on top of the fact that you already need a way to sufficiently deal with any and all of the prominent Dark-Types in the meta, as well as Heal Bell support if you don't run Refresh. Now Mega Latias is definitely not bad, but it's also not as viable in the offensive role this gen. Defensive sets might get more traction if the meta changes in their favor, but right now there's too many mons like Genesect and Ash Greninja that give it headaches(Reuniclus hates them too, no doubt, but again it requires less overall support to beat them).

TL;DR Outclassed by Reuniclus
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
:Latias-Mega: (Latias) I've barely seen any Mega Latias and honestly I'm not really sure why. It has a very valuable offensive and defensive niche, most notably with a Calm Mind set which can take an exorbitant amount of hits from the Special Side while also posing a big offensive threat as well. Still a very solid Pokemon, although new metagame trends hamper it a bit.
:Reuniclus:

I think the main reason Mega Latias doesn't really see any play is because it has to compete with Reuniclus as a Calm Mind sweeper, especially now that Reuniclus also has access to Stored Power and abuses it far better thanks to the combo with Acid Armor, meaning unlike Mega Latias, Reuniclus can predict a Pursuit trapper coming in and can use AA to avoid being killed when it switches out. It's also worth noting that unlike Mega Latias, Reuniclus is far better in one of the roles that the Double Dance set plays in a stallbreaker because it's immune to status thanks to Magic Guard, meaning any stall mon that isn't Mega Sableye or Calm Mind Unaware Clefable has to just watch in horror as Reuniclus sets up in their faces. Meanwhile, Mega Latias is extremely reliant on Substitute/Reflect Type/Refresh to efficiently break teams as both Toxic and Twave keep it from sweeping. This means you need more support for it in the form of another stallbreaker on top of the fact that you already need a way to sufficiently deal with any and all of the prominent Dark-Types in the meta, as well as Heal Bell support if you don't run Refresh. Now Mega Latias is definitely not bad, but it's also not as viable in the offensive role this gen. Defensive sets might get more traction if the meta changes in their favor, but right now there's too many mons like Genesect and Ash Greninja that give it headaches(Reuniclus hates them too, no doubt, but again it requires less overall support to beat them).

TL;DR Outclassed by Reuniclus
[/QUOTE]

Reuniclus existing definitely hurts but it also requires very specific support from the teams that it is on if it is to sweep effectively. Latias's access to a second coverage move as well as a greater initial speed tier means that it still has its place in the metagame when it comes to its offensive presence, and it still has plenty of places to set up thanks to its greater initial speed tier and a typing that gives it a slew of nice resistances that it can use in its advantage. I honestly wouldn't bother with defensive sets right now because its weak to a bunch of commonly spammed coverage moves. Latias also comes with the nice perk of far superior initial bulk as well as shredding Hydreigon instead of being massacred by it. To be honest I haven't really been using Mega-Latias as a sweeper, instead as more of a wallbreaker that sets up CM on a lot of stuff and can then bring the pain with its varied and good coverage. I would agree that Reuniclus is better as a full on Sweeper but its really all or nothing, while Mega Latias has the potential to bring midgame pain onto defensive cores.

I also wouldn't call Reuniclus a stallbreaker as such, because at least one of the mons that you mention here are on effectively every stall team, and sometimes both because Mega Blastoise and Zygarde are everywhere, meaning that Clefable is the best Unaware user right now if you ask me. (Mega Sableye is pretty self-explanatory), while the risk of Twave on certain mons still exists and is really irritating for Reuni. Latias doesn't do too well against Stall either in fairness but oftentimes stall teams have the tools to beat both of them (or at least, a well built stall team does).
 
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Thank you for the very helpful and detailed answer. How does HDB spDef Mantine with air slash as its sole attacking move fare as a water immune? It offers defog/haze and toxic support. It can check AshGren, Vish and BlastoiseM as well as handle special Grass types unlike Gastrodon. Not being able to touch Heatran and being set up fodder for SG Mag is bad. Both it and Gastrodon are momentum drains.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
Mantine should run Scald as its final move, not Air Slash. Mantine is...ok but as you said its a huge momentum drain and has very stiff competition from our other water absorbers. Also invest in Defense cuz it really needs all in that department that it can get and its SpD is massive even uninvested.
 
:Reuniclus:

I think the main reason Mega Latias doesn't really see any play is because it has to compete with Reuniclus as a Calm Mind sweeper, especially now that Reuniclus also has access to Stored Power and abuses it far better thanks to the combo with Acid Armor, meaning unlike Mega Latias, Reuniclus can predict a Pursuit trapper coming in and can use AA to avoid being killed when it switches out. It's also worth noting that unlike Mega Latias, Reuniclus is far better in one of the roles that the Double Dance set plays in a stallbreaker because it's immune to status thanks to Magic Guard, meaning any stall mon that isn't Mega Sableye or Calm Mind Unaware Clefable has to just watch in horror as Reuniclus sets up in their faces. Meanwhile, Mega Latias is extremely reliant on Substitute/Reflect Type/Refresh to efficiently break teams as both Toxic and Twave keep it from sweeping. This means you need more support for it in the form of another stallbreaker on top of the fact that you already need a way to sufficiently deal with any and all of the prominent Dark-Types in the meta, as well as Heal Bell support if you don't run Refresh. Now Mega Latias is definitely not bad, but it's also not as viable in the offensive role this gen. Defensive sets might get more traction if the meta changes in their favor, but right now there's too many mons like Genesect and Ash Greninja that give it headaches(Reuniclus hates them too, no doubt, but again it requires less overall support to beat them).

TL;DR Outclassed by Reuniclus
I also wouldn't call Reuniclus a stallbreaker as such, because at least one of the mons that you mention here are on effectively every stall team, and sometimes both because Mega Blastoise and Zygarde are everywhere, meaning that Clefable is the best Unaware user right now if you ask me. (Mega Sableye is pretty self-explanatory), while the risk of Twave on certain mons still exists and is really irritating for Reuni. Latias doesn't do too well against Stall either in fairness but oftentimes stall teams have the tools to beat both of them (or at least, a well built stall team does).
[/QUOTE]

This is definitely a valid counterargument, but some there are some things worth noting:

1. Clef is only mentioned because it only occassionally runs Calm Mind, (even though Phys. Def. + Calm Mind is probably one of the better sets to run if you've already got a Heal Bell user, therefore one should still prepare for it). Otherwise, Reuniclus beats the shit out of it thanks to Stored Power basically bypassing Unaware.
2. I think you kinda miss the purpose of a stallbreaker and how it works. A stallbreaker doesn't just 6-0 stall (sorry if I've misinterpreted your statement there), and as you've mentioned stall definitely has ways of beating dealing with breakers. However, a stallbreaker does pressure and does have the ability to beat stall after specific checks and counters are defeated, kinda like any other mon in existence. For a non-Reuniclus example, take SD Bulu. You obviously can't just send this out willy nilly if they've got shit like Zapdos, M-Aggron, etc. but you're free to beat the stall team once a teammate like Heatran clears the path for you. Basically, my point is you can't say something isn't a stallbreaker just because there's stuff on stall that beats it because it's not like you automatically win by just having it anyways. Reuniclus and M-Latias are therefore breakers as they definitely have the means to beat it just as stall has its checks to them. Reuniclus ,as we've already agreed, just does it a bit better, though I will absolutely agree with M-Latias being more effective against offensive teams and as per your aforementioned reasons.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
This is definitely a valid counterargument, but some there are some things worth noting:

1. Clef is only mentioned because it only occassionally runs Calm Mind, (even though Phys. Def. + Calm Mind is probably one of the better sets to run if you've already got a Heal Bell user, therefore one should still prepare for it). Otherwise, Reuniclus beats the shit out of it thanks to Stored Power basically bypassing Unaware.
2. I think you kinda miss the purpose of a stallbreaker and how it works. A stallbreaker doesn't just 6-0 stall (sorry if I've misinterpreted your statement there), and as you've mentioned stall definitely has ways of beating dealing with breakers. However, a stallbreaker does pressure and does have the ability to beat stall after specific checks and counters are defeated, kinda like any other mon in existence. For a non-Reuniclus example, take SD Bulu. You obviously can't just send this out willy nilly if they've got shit like Zapdos, M-Aggron, etc. but you're free to beat the stall team once a teammate like Heatran clears the path for you. Basically, my point is you can't say something isn't a stallbreaker just because there's stuff on stall that beats it because it's not like you automatically win by just having it anyways. Reuniclus and M-Latias are therefore breakers as they definitely have the means to beat it just as stall has its checks to them. Reuniclus ,as we've already agreed, just does it a bit better, though I will absolutely agree with M-Latias being more effective against offensive teams and as per your aforementioned reasons.
Yeah I definitely didn't articulate that as well as I could have. I'm fully aware that a Stallbreaker doesn't just 6-0 Stall, I just don't think Reuniclus is an amazing Stallbreaker straight up. It has the tools to threaten a couple of stall mainstays (obviously something like Alomomola is just easy setup) but not being able to threaten Mega Sab or CM Clef is a pretty big deal. SD Bulu, for example, as you said, is walled by things like Zapdos and Mega Aggron, but stall is getting really linear thanks to the extreme efforts one must go though to beat all of our potent offensive threats. Sableye is pretty obvious as a Magic Bouncer, and honestly I don't think Quagsire or Pyukumuku is worth it because a lot of our boosting sweepers have ways past them, so Clef gets run extremely frequently as a result. (Also I agree that Clef should be running CM more, stall has a significant amount of potential clerics and if you aren't CM you don't do as well against, say, Hydro Pump Mega Toise) Struggling againsts two threats that are on a ton of stall teams these days isn't the way to go. (In comparison to the Bulu example; Aggron, for example, is not as good in this meta.) That's not even the dealbreaker though, if Reuniclus gets hit by a Twave something like Chansey can conceivably cheese its way by just with seismic toss, and a proactive Skarmory can phase Reuniclus as well. Dealing with these isn't impossible, sure, and Reuniclus isn't the worst option against stall at all, but I wouldn't pack it as my chief Stallbreaker per se.

And, again, I wholeheartedly agreee that Reuniclus is superior as far as pure sweepers go these days and is an absolute nightmare for any balance team to face as well as their checks to it tend to be easily taken care of by its best friends in Mega Lop and Toxapex. Latias is still a great breaker though imo.
 
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Mantine should run Scald as its final move, not Air Slash. Mantine is...ok but as you said its a huge momentum drain and has very stiff competition from our other water absorbers. Also invest in Defense cuz it really needs all in that department that it can get and its SpD is massive even uninvested.
The point of mantine is to check mostly water types after all. Is scald+toxic+haze enough to touch AshGren, Vish and BlastoiseM?
 
The point of mantine is to check mostly water types after all. Is scald+toxic+haze enough to touch AshGren, Vish and BlastoiseM?
Its not like Air Slash is going to be doing any damage regardless, and Mantine is slow as hell so the flinch will almost never be put to use. 30% burn chance on the other hand gives Mantine an edge against physical attackers and is welcome utility.
 
I've been playing this meta for a little while now and thought I'd just voice some of my opinions on the some of the controversial mons:

:sm/blastoise-mega:

I've been playing with this quite a lot recently and have to echo the sentiment that whilst it can be overbearing, I do not think its the primary QB suspect people are making it out to be. Do I think its unhealthy for the meta? Yes. Do I think its the thing currently most unhealthy for the meta? No.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how threatening Smashtoise is when setup and not much can defensively check it, but since water resists and immunities are common, most teams will have something that can take one hit. It becomes a lot easier to deal with once you know if it has Aura Sphere or not too. I think the main thing keeping Smashtoise from completely breaking the meta is the abundance of priority. Zygarde, Bisharp, Aegislash, Mmaw, and some Genesect can all deal with it as long as it's chipped a bit - which is usually fine as its gonna be attacked as it's setting up the majority of the time. This isnt what I would call sufficient counterplay, but it is something and a whole lot of those mons are extremely common.

:sm/genesect:
This, on the other hand, is what I think is currently the biggest issue. Genesect has like 4 or 5 sets, each roughly as strong as each other making it extremely hard to play around. Whilst Genesect itself is quite weak, the ambiguity of it coupled with Download possibly giving it a huge boost means it often forces suboptimal play around it. It has a fair few checks, but they massively vary depending on which Genesect set it is which makes defensive counterplay pretty difficult. And then Scarf is just free U-turn simulator and is obnoxious in its own right. God I hate scarf Gene.

:sm/dugtrio:
Ban this. Rather, ban Arena Trap. This mon is dumb and makes everything else thats kinda sorta hard to deal with completely impossible to deal with. Heatran, for example, is one of the best answers to all Genesect variants, however, its extremely hard to justify running because its complete deadweight vs Dugtrio. Even if its Shed Shell and cant be trapped, it's no longer a real check as hazards + uturns/tbolts are going to let Gene beat it eventually. Toxapex is another good example as something that can take a hit from Smashtoise and potentially haze, that becomes a lot harder to do if the opponent is threatening it with a Dugtrio. I'm sure everyone knows how unfun Dugtrio is to play against at this point.

:sm/zygarde:
I also think Zygarde is really strong at the moment, again due to the variety in its sets ranging from CB to SubTox to DD. I don't think its as unhealthy as everything discussed above but its definitely something to keep an eye on going forward.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I was planning on making a separate thread to discuss potential suspects post-Dynamax meta but since people already started to post here I thought why not continue the discourse here and not split things up.



Mega Blastoise is definitely a controversial poke in the current metagame with the introduction of Shell Smash in it's arsenal. A wide array of coverage options such as Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, and Dragon Pulse enables Toise to threaten just about every mon in the meta safe from extremely specially fat mons such as Chansey and the rare Goodra and Mantine. Mega Toise does have it's checks however that are commonly found on many balance / BO teams, mainly being pivots such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, AV Magearna, and specially defensive Washtom. However the issue with the aforementioned checks is that A) they are worn down rather quickly with hazards and a lack of reliable recover or b) can be circumvented via coverage or just strong neutral attacks (mainly Ferrothorn and Pex). This often forces players to try and check Mega Blastoise offensively, a task that can be just as difficult due to it sitting at a very comfortable speed bench mark after just a single SS boost which it can often get a chance to boost thanks to it's impressive natural bulk.

However, Toise is not without it's shortcomings. For starters, Mega Blastoise often requires support from teammates to either weaken or remove certain checks as it can often not deal enough damage to a team with a healthy Tapu Fini, AV Tangrowth, or AV Magearna. Thus, either relying on hazard support to be set and conserved on the opposing side throughout the majority of the match or rely on Trappers such as Dugtrio and Magnezone to perform it's bidding. Compounded on to this, Mega Blastoise can struggle to set up versus most of the offensive threats in the metagame without help from Screen setters, as foes such as Tapu Koko, Mega Metagross, Greninja, Dragapult, and Genesect can sometimes inflict too much damage and prevent Mega Toise from securing a sweep late-game as it is left risk to revenge killers (usually via priority). At this moment, I don't see Mega Blastoise worthy for a quick ban, but I will definitely keep my eyes out on it as the metagame progresses.


Genesect has been making an impact ever since it was brought back and is probably the most worthy of a suspect imo. Between Scarf, Band, SG + Z-Move, and mixed sets with either Ebelt or LO, Gene can manage to always put in work in any game it seems and is really oppressive in the builder from my experience. Accounting for each set / coverage option is nigh impossible and most balance / BO teams can and will always fall victim to at least one Gene set, a prospect that may not be seen as too overbearing at first. However, given how splashable Gene is rn and how well it forms and supports sooo many offensive threats such as Mega Metagross, Zygarde, Darm-G, Lele, etc...., makes me feel Gene is really an issue. It does not help that most of it's "checks" such as Heatran, Chansey, and AV Magearna all fall victim to Dugtrio trapping, another annoyance which I will address shortly. All in all, I def feel that Gene is front of the line in the chopping block potentially, but I would like to hear other's opinions on it too.


Ay where can I begin with this one. Initially in the Dynamax metagame, Duggy was rarely seen as it barely got the chance to trap any opposing threat due to the added bulk and ability to bypass it with max moves halting it from doing it anything. However, it's really been showcasing it's potential post Dynamax Clause as it can form deadly cores with breakers such as Zard Y, Genesect, Mega Metagross, and Tapu Lele and limit counterplay as a result. Whether it be with Z-EQ or Sash sets, Duggy can fulfill a monumental amount of roles from Bulky Offense to Stall alike, and is something the council will be looking closely into as well. Note that we will be looking at Arena Trap as a whole and not solely on Dugtrio however, just as we treated Shadow Tag.


I have been enjoying Zygarde in this metagame, but it is definitely another mon that can potentially cause issues down the line. I have rarely seen CB sets as of yet since physdef Tang is kinda everywhere to deal with Dracovish, however I have been toying with Sub Toxic + DD and Sub Glare + DD and they really cheese opponents as it did in the previous gen. This gen did help a tiny bit by introducing checks such as Infiltrator Dragapult and Scarf Darmanitan-G that can OHKO it in a pinch, but Zygarde can really be a nuisance that does not require that much support to be annoying and is also another mon that will be on watch as well.

Please post your thoughts on the current meta as well! The expanding council values community feedback and will take it into consideration when deciding the next impending suspect!
 
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