Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

... 1.a. He certainly is Galar OU, and he's very high in the VR in spite of Dragapult being on every 3rd team and Hydreigon being everywhere. I don't know where you got this from.
b. Sub Toxic isn't OP. It's the way it lets Aegi uses it to cheese all the mons that check its other sets. Including the "significant proportion of the tier" you mention.
c. The bulk drop is fairly small, the speed is fixed by Autonomise sets and Shadow Sneak. And btw, low speed is often a boon for it since it stays in shield form when taking hits.
d. No recovery has never been an issue for Lando-T or Magearna.
e. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...islash-remains-in-ubers.3536089/#post-6172079 I quote:

And many others like it. You might argue things have changed since then. The King's Shield nerf. More potential checks. But name a mon that deals with Double Dance, Banded, Specs AND Sub Toxic in one set. The first few are handleable. But I think you fail to appreciate how important it is to have checks that beat things reliably (as also shown by your lack of understanding of the Zy ban). Aegi with Toxic available to it is just not a mon you can check from Team Preview. And that's not a good thing. I would be most open to a resuspect once we've cleaned the tier out a bit, so we can clarify exactly how much the nerfs hurt it, but for now the tier needs urgent stabilising.
2. Agree. See also Scarf Dragapult.
3. ... Are we talking about the same mon here???
a. Thousand Arrows alone makes Zy pretty nutty. It has 1 switch-in in the tier-Bulu. The ability to just ignore the type chart on an already powerful offensive typing and have 90 BP on it is so stupid. It means Zy only needs 1 attacking move, and the other 3 slots can be literally anything.
b. Which bulky grasses do you refer to? Only Bulu and Ferro got above the usage threshold, and Ferro is part-steel, so it doesn't like Thousand Arrows at all.
c. Zy doesn't need recovery thanks to its amazing defenses and typing. If it is running a slower build, leftovers+its switch-in Bulu giving it Grassy Terrain is loads of recovery, especially considering it comes in on Volt Switch for free. Oh, and Thousand Arrows being stupid means Rest Talk is actually a thing on this mon.
d. Slow-has the same base speed as Hydreigon and Garm what are you on. Doesn't hit hard-100 base ATK. Are you looking at the same mon as me? Sure, they aren't "broken" stats but they're more than enough for what it has to do.
e. Predictable-This is exactly what he isn't. This is why he is worth the banhammer.
f. Tons of things pressure Mega Kanga too. Shall we unban that? Yes, Zy has offensive checks, but none of them can switch into him. None.
g. Loses to rain and sun-really? And those are everywhere rn. Not. The fact you name Tang when Zy in fact beats it with Toxic is hilarious. And Clef can't switch into Thousand Arrows and Unaware hates Toxic.
h. Lando-T can't beat Grasses and Flying mons without a Z-move.
Read this: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...thousand-miles-zygarde-is-now-banned.3645049/
4. Yep. We told you so.
5. Yes.
6. Why? Who really cares? It's probably garbage if we do unban it. We have Lele and Magearna. Besides, Timid Eruption Heatran we could at least say would be a thing in Gen 8. That would not.
7. Yes.

You mean people don't run Glare??? Whistles quietly.

Zygarde may have similar speed tiers to Darm and Hydreigon but he almost never runs 252 speed jolly. I have also never seen someone unironically use rest talk zygarde.

Zygarde is hella predictable which is why he warrants so many checks. 99% of the time he will try to force a switch and get a free sub, toxic, then use dragon dance. Because of this Reuniclus hard walls him, a mon that is massively gaining traction due to Guard Sweeper. Bulky Grasses arent in many teams only for the sake of checking Zygarde - all of them are uniquely viable in their own right.
Zygarde's attack is also pretty damn mediocre in this day and age, so he needs a substantial amount of boosts to actually be in the range of OHKOing shit.

He hard loses to rain thanks to him being unable to threaten Pelipper outside of Toxic. After that Mega Swampert easily brute forces Zygarde.

Also Infiltrator Dragapult, Tapu Lele, Kyurem, Mega Blastoise, Darmanitan, Hydreigon, Tapu Bulu, Weavile, Sylveon, Mega Metagross, Dracovish and more all threaten Zygarde's bulk.


In sun he loses because he is extremely liable to get burned or slept by torkoal, who cant even be ko'd by thousand arrows. Also venusaur sets up on him.

And the situation you described (slow volt turn plus bulu) is quite a lot of support for a mon who still doesnt have any direct recovery.

Zygarde is no better than SubDD Dragapult, except Dragapult brings more immediate power, can become invincible, requires less support, breaks subs, and outspeeds the entire boosted metagame unboosted.

Also floette eternal would definitely be a thing, if only a niche wallbreaker. Specs Light of Ruin is basically a guaranteed kill on almost any neutral mon, plus floette eternal has shit loads of utility.

 

[theotherguytm]

Very long refutation

Zygarde may have similar speed tiers to Darm and Hydreigon but he almost never runs 252 speed jolly.

Yeah cause "only" 252 Adamant is such a big deal. And it has access to Espeed.

I have also never seen someone unironically use rest talk zygarde.

Ohh the "fun" you're missing out on. Yeah it's a rare set, but Zy is basically the only mon in the game that can unironically run garbage like Chesto Rest, or just plain Rest. Zy has the bulk of a wall combined with setup.

Zygarde is hella predictable which is why he warrants so many checks. 99% of the time he will try to force a switch and get a free sub, toxic, then use dragon dance.

That would be great and all, but if you look at the above usage you'll see 30% of Zys don't run Sub and only 8% run Toxic. Bang goes your prediction.

Because of this Reuniclus hard walls him, a mon that is massively gaining traction due to Guard Sweeper.

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 181-214 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Struggles to switch into it, hates Glare and Dragon Tail and:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 363-427 (85.6 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Yep. Clearly hard walls it. Also, Zy totally doesn't have 5 teammates.

Bulky Grasses arent in many teams only for the sake of checking Zygarde - all of them are uniquely viable in their own right.

Name said bulky grasses. As I said, only Ferro and Bulu got above the usage threshold and Ferro isn't a Zy check.

Zygarde's attack is also pretty damn mediocre in this day and age, so he needs a substantial amount of boosts to actually be in the range of OHKOing shit.

Gee I wonder what that bulk's for. Gee I wonder what that Double Dance set is for. Zy gets boosts for fun, and pretending it won't get setup opportunities is just wrong. Not to mention if you guess the wrong set Zy will carry on boosting in the face of your "check".

He hard loses to rain thanks to him being unable to threaten Pelipper outside of Toxic. After that Mega Swampert easily brute forces Zygarde.

Again, Zy doesn't have to 6-0 every team by itself. And rain is garbage rn. Oh and:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 145-172 (44.8 - 53.2%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
I'm not sure you understand what Thousand Arrows does.

Infiltrator Dragapult

Cannot switch in because Glare cripples beyond repair. Also:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 255-301 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 342-404 (107.8 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not to mention Adamant Zy is faster at +1. So this actually loses to Zy that does anything on the switch.

Tapu Lele

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 255-301 (90.7 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Kyurem

Who tf runs this? Hates Toxic, also:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 294-348 (72.5 - 85.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 220-261 (54.3 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Blastoise

broken checks broken arguement, can't be bothered

Darmanitan

This is meant to switch-in how exactly? And also hates Glare.

Hydreigon

I assume you mean specifically the scarf version. Not the other 3 sets that hard lose to Zy. Again, all hate Glare. Again, can't switch in.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 220-261 (67.6 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 294-348 (90.4 - 107%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Tapu Bulu

The one actual check you named. Gives Zy free recovery. Hates Toxic. Other than that, not too bad.

Weavile

you can do the calcs yourself, obviously can't switch in and hates Glare.

Sylveon

Uhh. Wat. I guess but:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 264-312 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So has to resort to a 50/50 with Protect and lets in half the meta for free. General rule: if you're resorting to unmons, it's borked.

Mega Metagross

Another broken checks broken arguement, and not even a good one.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Dracovish

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 202-238 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 270-320 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Satisfied? 1 of the mons you named can switch into Zy and probably be fine. All the rest get destroyed on the switch or take a glare and can no longer check it.

In sun he loses because he is extremely liable to get burned or slept by torkoal, who cant even be ko'd by thousand arrows. Also venusaur sets up on him.

Sure he can't be koed in one. But again, can't switch in on him, can't threaten him (at best Yawn forces him out), hates Toxic and is setup bait for his teammates. And I don't think Vensaur is sweeping while paralyzed any time soon. Also, Sun is also terrible. Even worse than Rain.

And the situation you described (slow volt turn plus bulu) is quite a lot of support for a mon who still doesnt have any direct recovery.

I think you misunderstood me. Volt turn and Bulu are what your opponent does to help Zy. In other words, Zy comes in for free on Volt Switch and your opponent's best check, Bulu, heals him for free. Zy needs very little support to sweep most teams, though I should mention he's almost unkillable with Screens up. The recovery is a non-issue, but for those who care, there's the Rest sets.

Zygarde is no better than SubDD Dragapult, except Dragapult brings more immediate power, can become invincible, requires less support, breaks subs, and outspeeds the entire boosted metagame unboosted.

Uhh. They are totally different mons. Just because they both do Sub DD does not make them comparable. Dragapult relies entirely on its speed to win games and has no bulk. It cannot break its own checks or run one attack to hit the whole game. This whole statement sums up how little you understand Zygarde, how little you know about why it's so stupid, and your total lack of knowledge on the game. You have been trying to turn OU into Ubers UU by arguing against every single ban and advocating the most stupid things to be unbanned. Minimising bans is NOT a concern for OU, and never should be. Ban as much as possible until the tier stablises, and then we can discuss suspecting Zy to be unbanned.
And I haven't even mentioned Screens in spite of the fact ScreenSnarl is its most common teammate.

Also floette eternal would definitely be a thing, if only a niche wallbreaker. Specs Light of Ruin is basically a guaranteed kill on almost any neutral mon, plus floette eternal has shit loads of utility.

This is a concern for Hackmons not OU. The question should be: "Would this thing be obtainable in Gen 8 without Dexit?" The answer is obviously no.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Very long refutation

Yeah cause "only" 252 Adamant is such a big deal. And it has access to Espeed.

Ohh the "fun" you're missing out on. Yeah it's a rare set, but Zy is basically the only mon in the game that can unironically run garbage like Chesto Rest, or just plain Rest. Zy has the bulk of a wall combined with setup.

That would be great and all, but if you look at the above usage you'll see 30% of Zys don't run Sub and only 8% run Toxic. Bang goes your prediction.

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 181-214 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Struggles to switch into it, hates Glare and Dragon Tail and:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 363-427 (85.6 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Yep. Clearly hard walls it. Also, Zy totally doesn't have 5 teammates.

Name said bulky grasses. As I said, only Ferro and Bulu got above the usage threshold and Ferro isn't a Zy check.

Gee I wonder what that bulk's for. Gee I wonder what that Double Dance set is for. Zy gets boosts for fun, and pretending it won't get setup opportunities is just wrong. Not to mention if you guess the wrong set Zy will carry on boosting in the face of your "check".

Again, Zy doesn't have to 6-0 every team by itself. And rain is garbage rn. Oh and:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 145-172 (44.8 - 53.2%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
I'm not sure you understand what Thousand Arrows does.

Cannot switch in because Glare cripples beyond repair. Also:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 255-301 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 342-404 (107.8 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not to mention Adamant Zy is faster at +1. So this actually loses to Zy that does anything on the switch.

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 255-301 (90.7 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Who tf runs this? Hates Toxic, also:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 294-348 (72.5 - 85.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 220-261 (54.3 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

broken checks broken arguement, can't be bothered

This is meant to switch-in how exactly? And also hates Glare.

I assume you mean specifically the scarf version. Not the other 3 sets that hard lose to Zy. Again, all hate Glare. Again, can't switch in.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 220-261 (67.6 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 294-348 (90.4 - 107%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The one actual check you named. Gives Zy free recovery. Hates Toxic. Other than that, not too bad.

you can do the calcs yourself, obviously can't switch in and hates Glare.

Uhh. Wat. I guess but:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 264-312 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So has to resort to a 50/50 with Protect and lets in half the meta for free. General rule: if you're resorting to unmons, it's borked.

Another broken checks broken arguement, and not even a good one.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 202-238 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 270-320 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Satisfied? 1 of the mons you named can switch into Zy and probably be fine. All the rest get destroyed on the switch or take a glare and can no longer check it.

Sure he can't be koed in one. But again, can't switch in on him, can't threaten him (at best Yawn forces him out), hates Toxic and is setup bait for his teammates. And I don't think Vensaur is sweeping while paralyzed any time soon. Also, Sun is also terrible. Even worse than Rain.

I think you misunderstood me. Volt turn and Bulu are what your opponent does to help Zy. In other words, Zy comes in for free on Volt Switch and your opponent's best check, Bulu, heals him for free. Zy needs very little support to sweep most teams, though I should mention he's almost unkillable with Screens up. The recovery is a non-issue, but for those who care, there's the Rest sets.

Uhh. They are totally different mons. Just because they both do Sub DD does not make them comparable. Dragapult relies entirely on its speed to win games and has no bulk. It cannot break its own checks or run one attack to hit the whole game. This whole statement sums up how little you understand Zygarde, how little you know about why it's so stupid, and your total lack of knowledge on the game. You have been trying to turn OU into Ubers UU by arguing against every single ban and advocating the most stupid things to be unbanned. Minimising bans is NOT a concern for OU, and never should be. Ban as much as possible until the tier stablises, and then we can discuss suspecting Zy to be unbanned.
And I haven't even mentioned Screens in spite of the fact ScreenSnarl is its most common teammate.

This is a concern for Hackmons not OU. The question should be: "Would this thing be obtainable in Gen 8 without Dexit?" The answer is obviously no.

You're forgetting Reuniclus gets Acid Armor. He can keep up with the boosts quite easily, and then counter with Stored Power.

With Dragon Tail being used on a lot of calcs I see you're thinking of some parashuffler set, in which case my point of all those mons I stated before still stand. Zygarde simply cannot switch into shit easily.
cause frankly I find this remark unacceptable.

 

[Funbot28]

We can have a civil discussion on current metagame topics without using ad-hominems and personally attack other users. Please keep this mind when making future posts as they will be deleted and infracted from now on.

 

[theotherguytm]

You're forgetting Reuniclus gets Acid Armor. He can keep up with the boosts quite easily, and then counter with Stored Power.

Uhh. Loads of things wrong here.1. Zy will not stay in on a Reuni it can't beat, it will just switch to something else that beats or phases Reuniclus (especially easy against the Double Dance set you mention which gets walled by every single Dark type in the game and is Taunt bait).
2. Reuni is slower than Zy, so a Zy packing Groundium Z hits it with Tectonic Rage then kills it before it can recover.

With Dragon Tail being used on a lot of calcs I see you're thinking of some parashuffler set, in which case my point of all those mons I stated before still stand.

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Adamant Nature
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Dragon Tail
This is a thing. Also, all the mons Zy needs Dtail to beat can't switch in on Thousand Arrows, and most of them hate Glare.

Zygarde simply cannot switch into shit easily.

This is completely untrue. Again, read this that took me 2 minutes to find:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...thousand-miles-zygarde-is-now-banned.3645049/
Zy resists rocks and comes in for free on every hazard setter we have.
Zy comes in for free on an opposing Volt Switch, blocking it in the process.
Zy comes in for free on any of its 5 or so resists.
And that's all without team support.
Zy comes in for free on basically anything with Screens up.
Zy comes in for free every time you use U-turn.
Zy comes in for free on any double switch.
This isn't Greninja where it dies to any neutral hit. Zy has stupid bulk, and is usually deployed under screens. Want to see a really fun calc?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde through Light Screen: 265-313 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So on a double switch vs Specs Lele with rocks on both sides Zy sets up on Lele with Screens and OHKOs it.
What is your criteria for "not switching into shit"?

You know what? I really don't fucking like your tone. Let alone in the previous post you accused me of being high. If you have a problem with me? Fine. Then PM me instead of trying to start a fight in a metagame discussion thread. But I think you need to check your attitude because frankly I find this remark unacceptable.

Uhhh. Ok. Just don't post things that are wrong and insist they aren't. That annoys me.

 

[EnterTheYeetening]

Okay, so may we discuss the irritating menance that is everyone's favorite wrestling tiger: Incineroar.

The VGC master himself, Incineroar originally has fared much worse in Singles. This thing, although packed with a great ability in Intimidate, was simply too slow to do much damage, and it was outclassed by Arcanine, anyway. But now, thanks to SwSh, Incineroar recieves a new toy that changes everything: Parting Shot.

This easily makes Incineroar one of the best pivots in the game. Switch in to it, then immediately Parting Shot into something that can better counter the enemy. This basically can cripple the opponent for free, and due to to Parting Shot's large PP stat you can repeat this over and over and over.

I imagine a set like this could work best for it:

Incineroar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 160
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Parting Shot
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat
- Close Combat

A Choice Scarf would likely be the best option for it since it'll usually use Parting Shot anyway, and the speed boost given is exceptionally useful. Having three attacking moves doesn't hurt either, although it's not the main priority. A Jolly nature will be required as you want Incineroar to be as fast as possible.

Overall, I've been using this set to a lot of success, and no doubt it's pissed off at least one of my opponents. I think it's definitely worth a look.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

...Fine.

I'll make a more elaborate case on why Zygarde isn't really suspect worthy (at least at the moment).

Yes youre right. I have been kinda arguing against every ban, i guess im a bit of a natural contrarian. I'll stop that. But this time I legitamitely believe that Zygarde isn't worthy of a suspect. Maybe in the future, but as it stands I find him to be top tier, but not exactly Ubers material.

Zygarde *cannot* switch into things easily, I still stand by that.
When he's up and running, not a lot of mons can switch into him, but Zygarde is simply vulnerable to a large portion of the tier's breakers. I already stated the Pokemon do before.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...thousand-miles-zygarde-is-now-banned.3645049/

This adds on to my point. This is not USUM OU, this is National Dex, with dozens of new meta-relevant mons. People like to constantly meme that Nat Dex is nothing more than a continuation of USUM OU, but in reality, it's not, and I don't see the point in citing past metagames as reasoning for a ban.

Zy resists rocks and comes in for free on every hazard setter we have.
Zy comes in for free on an opposing Volt Switch, blocking it in the process.
Zy comes in for free on any of its 5 or so resists.
And that's all without team support.
Zy comes in for free on basically anything with Screens up.
Zy comes in for free every time you use U-turn.
Zy comes in for free on any double switch.
This isn't Greninja where it dies to any neutral hit. Zy has stupid bulk, and is usually deployed under screens. Want to see a really fun calc?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde through Light Screen: 265-313 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This also adds to my point. You're assuming that Grimmsnarl will be able to always set up double screens in every situation, but that's not realistic, isn't it? There's tons of Pokemon that survive super effective hits under screens, that doesnt make them overpowered, that's the point of screens. If we're judging a Pokemon's bulk on what it is under screens then half the tier must be broken.

>d. Slow-has the same base speed as Hydreigon and Garm what are you on. Doesn't hit hard-100 base ATK. Are you looking at the same mon as me? Sure, they aren't "broken" stats but they're more than enough for what it has to do.

Galarian Darmanitan is almost always Choice Scarfed, and Zygarde doesn't even have the same base speed as Hydreigon.

In fact, look at this set you provided:

>Zygarde @ Leftovers
Adamant Nature
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Dragon Tail

Adamant Nature. This now means that at +1 he can't outspeed Scarf Genesect and Darm. This set is also hard walled by Tapu Bulu, too. Odd. It also means that all the mons i previously mentioned outspeed him. Just because they cant switch into him doesnt make him OP, lots of mons do that. And the "broken checks broken" remark ive been noticing lots of people throw around here isn't necessarily true if mons that are generally considered to not be OP (Kartana and Hoopa-U) dont have any true switch ins.

"Guys Dracovish is OP. He comes in for free to half the meta due to his defensive typing and just starts shredding through the meta unfairly. Look, even Toxapex and Ferrothorn are 2HKO'd. Base 90 Attack is decent. His speed is alright as a wallbreaker given what he does.
His bulk is also nuts too, here have some calcs about surviving super-effective hits behind screens. Grimmsnarl is meta too so therefore we should assume that in every relevant situation Dracovish will be behind screens. Sure lots of shit can OHKO him but none of them can switch into Fishious Rend so therefore they are completely irrelevant. And any suspect-worthy pokemon that takes him out is suspect worthy, so they dont count too. Also he can run rest talk viably ik no one uses it but trust me its good"

This leads me to my next point: 4mss. As shown in all of his movesets that you shared, he has to sacrifice one major tool for another. Run Dragon Tail? No more Glare. Tectonium Z? No recovery is gonna be a bitch since there are scarfers that outspeed you at +1. If you run these you forgo toxic which means that youre gonna have a hell of a hard time breaking past the large amounts of bulky grass types that exist and are on every team. Good luck against Tangrowth and Bulu? Serperior, a mon that snowballs similarly to Zygarde and is much faster, has Glare and uses it often too, proving that this meta isn't a stranger to glare spam.

Of course, this is all assuming youre running 252/252 instead of a more bulkier spread, so in all likelihood youre going to be even slower in practice.

And yes, SubDD Dragapult and Zygarde are similar, honestly its in the name. Sure theres a difference in perks that both use, Dragapult's immediate speed and power, Zygarde has bulk, but both really truly are similar when you get down to it:

• Yes, both will eventually use speed to sweep. Theres no mental gymnastics around it. Theres no SubHowl. There IS, SubDD. The point of SubDD is to simultaneously use the boosted attack and speed to outspeed threats and one shot them. Not to bulk yourself up to invulnerability.
• Both spam one attack (dragon darts and thousand arrows).
• Both use Z-Moves often (Ghostium Z and Groundium Z).
• Both use invulnerabilities to try to get in for free.
• Both are on HO dual screens teams.

Ignoring the braindead "both are dragon types" these are all pretty significant similarities, no? They are both wincons that achieve victory the exact same way. The difference is, with Phantom Force giving a turn of invulnerability, Will'o'Wisp, Disable, Hex, and Dragon Darts, and the highest speed in the metagame, Dragapult has better utility.

Anyways, im going to disengage at this point cause of the memes, but I still firmly believe that primarily Zygarde is too liable to the amount or breakers in the tier that threaten him to be suspect material. Will he be banned in six months? Probably. Right now? Theres much much much bigger problems at the moment (arena trap, Blastoise, genesect) and Zygarde seems incredibly miniscule at the moment.

Anyways.

 

[Guard]

Zygarde is not up for a suspect test currently, so this entire discussion is moot. The most relevant topic in this tier right now is whether Dugtrio and Genesect should be quickbanned or suspected and whether they should face this simultaneously or not. I am eager to hear opinions on this, so feel free to discuss this rather than topics that aren't relevant as of right now.

edit: with Dugtrio, I obviously refer to Arena Trap

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Zygarde is not up for a suspect test currently, so this entire discussion is moot. The most relevant topic in this tier right now is whether Dugtrio and Genesect should be quickbanned or suspected and whether they should face this simultaneously or not. I am eager to hear opinions on this, so feel free to discuss this rather than topics that aren't relevant as of right now.

Arena Trap should be quickbanned, not Dugtrio, or people will use other Pokemon that have Arena Trap. Thats how we get Eviolite Trapinch.

 

[Zneon]

I agree with Guardsweeper, these posts have become kinda repetitive and it isn't even necessary for the time being. Anyway, I'll discuss my opinion on both Gene and Duggy and will come to a conclusion on which should be quickbanned or suspected.

Arena Trap

Let me get this out of the way as soon as possible. Dugtrio, or simply just arena trap. Is. Dumb. It's really not hard to see why. The amount of dangerous offensive cores that can be formed is absurd, Dugtrio can basically get rid of mons like Tran or Pex for free so that it can open up doors for extremely offensive powerhouses like Genesect, Zard and Smashtoise without any risk because trapping on its own is inherently broken and uncompetitive for the metagame. It can usually get rid of checks/counters to these Pokemon so that they are much more difficult to deal with as a result or nigh impossible to deal with Dugtrio support, and it makes it worse when this kind of support can be useful in every team archetype, from HO, to Balance to Stall. This is unhealthy presence, that in my opinion should be quickbanned. The reason for that is Arena Trap limits teambuilding to an absurd degree especially when stuff like Pex are running Shed Shell to not be trapped and killed off. This, alongside all the offensive threats in the tier it forms deadly cores with, usually makes teams with Dugtrio incredibly hard to deal with.

Genesect

Now for Genesect, this Pokemon is very unique, in that it has great offensive stats, movepool and its ability further enhances it. Even without Arena Trap support I still think Genesect is arguable the best offensive Pokemon in the tier. It has unparalleled set versatility, Physical with Band and SG + Z move, Special with Specs and RP, and Mixed with LO, Scarf and Ebelt. This mon that can do almost every offensive role imaginable and its so risk free for the fact that it can spam U-turn all it really wants because it is easily the best user of U-turn in the tier. It can be a set-up sweeper, wallbreaker, pivot, CB user, Specs user, Scarf user. Checks/Counters vary for most sets like Corv for Band and Tran for most of them, but its so unpredictable that you are guaranteed to get a mon heavily crippled or just straight up lose one by attempting to scout, and considering that it has so many offensive sets, it is impossible to be sure that your "counter" is going to be safe vs one set because can easily be hit by another its weak to instead, for example a Pokemon like Corviknight can deal with Band or SG+ Steelium, but if that Gene is carrying a Firium Z instead, Specs or Ebelt your Corviknight is toast. As for whether I want it quickbanned or suspected, I am not sure. I am leaning closer to a suspect right now as I don't think it makes the metagame uncompetitive like Arena Trap does, but I think it should be the first one to be looked on after Arena Trap.

Aight, that's all I gotta say, but what are your opinions on these 2, which ones should be quickbanned or suspected from your point of view guys? Have a nice day!

 

[KirbCena]

I think we need to quickban Arena Trap first. No reason to keep this when it allows a whole slew of mons to just reak havoc after Dugtrio kills all their obstacles. Zard Y, Volcarona, Genesect, Darm-G, the list just goes on. Genesect should be quickbanned too imo, since it has that Mega Lucario syndrome where guessing the wrong set can easily mean your team being broken through due to how risk-free Sect is in the first place. It might be a bit better to deal with after the most likely inevitable Arena Trap ban, but it could still pose a huge threat regardless.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

My god this thread started rotting really fast.

My opinions on most suspects/bans


Please for the love of god remove Arena Trap completely from this tier. For the past FOUR gens we’ve seen how dumb this ability can constrict teambuilding and actually playing the game. The tools that Duggy got this gen and the number of targets it has is numerous and traps them all with ease (see pivoting and Eject Button). QB this to hell.


After Duggy goes, this is not as threatening as it could be. People are clamoring that it doesn’t have strong counters, and while I agree with that, it exacerbates an issue Genesect has always had; 4MSS. Yeah sure you can hit Heatran with HP Ground, but are you really going to sacrifice that slot to a beat a single counter? I realistically think the three best sets are (in no particular order) Choice Scarf, Expert Belt Specially Mixed and CB. I am fine with suspecting this, but I think we need to wait for Duggy to leave before that.


A bit questionable on this one. I find sufficient counterplay for it hard, but offensive pressure usually does the job. My real issue with it though is the things that wall it can’t do much back. This often requires me to run an SmashToise answer than wears it down for some priority or a Scarfer to finish it off. This is a little constraining on teambuilding, and you can still lose to variations (Timid vs Modest, Hydro vs Ice Beam).


Not too worried about these yet, but I can see why others are scared of keeping them in the tier.

 

[Jho]

It seems like a lot of people are of the opinion that Genesect is only really enabled by Dugtrio and therefore, won't be an issue when/if Dugtrio leaves us. Whilst it is true that Dugtrio greatly enables Genesect and vice-versa, Dugtrio is only one of many abusers of Genesect's checks, albeit the best one. These two work in tandem so well because Genesect's pool of actual checks to all its sets is so low, and being able to remove them with Dugtrio really accentuates this. However, the root problem is the lack of checks in the first place, even without Dugtrio Genesect will still have the same small pool of checks and it will still be paired with abusers of those checks - they just won't be as effective. Just because Genesect cant U-turn into Dugtrio on Heatran and instantly remove it doesn't mean Pokemon such as Mega Tyranitar, Gliscor, EQ MMeta, Zygarde, Ash-Greninja, Smashtoise, Landot cant take advantage of it for free hazards, set up opportunities or just a big hit. This is obviously just using Heatran as an example, but it's the same for AV Magearna, Mega Venusaur etc. Genesect is a unique Pokemon in which it can do this effectively because you're never sure what set its running or what coverage options it has, so using soft checks isn't really an option since there's a chance they can be punished.

The issue is really apparent when the checks are sufficiently chipped enough for Genesect to just click through teams thanks to its decent speed tier and strong attacking stats, which is really what sets it apart from other Pokemon which do similar things. All of this brings me to the conclusion that Genesect will be just as problematic without Arena Trap in the meta as, despite it being extremely potent, is essentially just speeding up the process. I do believe that both Arena Trap and Genesect are worthy of Quick Bans, and think the meta will really start to even out after that point, which we can look at things such as Zygarde, Mmeta, and Smashtoise more closely.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Genesect and Dugtrio are relics of a dynamax meta. They were balanced in that meta because neither of them were good dynamaxers. No one can dynamax anymore, therefore their power level - notwithstanding the new mons - is roughly the same as it was before.
So yeah hang both of them idc im burned out

 

[Cabneet]

My god this thread started rotting really fast.

My opinions on most suspects/bans


Please for the love of god remove Arena Trap completely from this tier. For the past FOUR gens we’ve seen how dumb this ability can constrict teambuilding and actually playing the game. The tools that Duggy got this gen and the number of targets it has is numerous and traps them all with ease (see pivoting and Eject Button). QB this to hell.


After Duggy goes, this is not as threatening as it could be. People are clamoring that it doesn’t have strong counters, and while I agree with that, it exacerbates an issue Genesect has always had; 4MSS. Yeah sure you can hit Heatran with HP Ground, but are you really going to sacrifice that slot to a beat a single counter? I realistically think the three best sets are (in no particular order) Choice Scarf, Expert Belt Specially Mixed and CB. I am fine with suspecting this, but I think we need to wait for Duggy to leave before that.


A bit questionable on this one. I find sufficient counterplay for it hard, but offensive pressure usually does the job. My real issue with it though is the things that wall it can’t do much back. This often requires me to run an SmashToise answer than wears it down for some priority or a Scarfer to finish it off. This is a little constraining on teambuilding, and you can still lose to variations (Timid vs Modest, Hydro vs Ice Beam).


Not too worried about these yet, but I can see why others are scared of keeping them in the tier.

On Blastoise, if a mon's only effective counterplay is "offensive pressure" is this not in itself warranting of a ban?
The way I see it, if you have a mon who doesnt threaten Blastoise on the field, Blastoise then proceeds to just win outside of the few, very constraining and/or exceptionally niche checks that we have already discussed (and ditto)
Are mons who dont threaten Blastoise uncommon?
Well, no. Blastoise has a decent speed tier, amazing mono-water typing, great bulk, and good power even before shell smashing. Keeping up "offensive pressure" just sounds like a viable way to have Blastoise punch holes in your team without having to ever set up in the first place.
I sincerely think Blastoise is the #1 cancer right now, being far more restrictive in the builder than even mons like genesect.
Yeah, you can have a team that pressures blastoise offensively and prevents it from getting a chance to set up, but do all 6 of your mons do this? Because the one that doesnt is viable to lose you the game if it ever gets a KO.
Defensive counterplay is FAR more important to determining whether or not a mon is broken. Offensive counterplay exists for literally everything in some way, shape, or form and honestly means little to me.

Also, #The Amazonian Rainforest getting up dual screens is very much easier than it has ever been and Grimmsnarl does indeed set them up quite reliably. This thing is all over the ladder for good reason. Screens are to be expected.

Also, also, somewhat unrelated to Blastoise discussion, I believe unbanning mons was a mistake that should be taken back post-haste.
Mega Metagross, Genesect, and Zygarde were unbanned when dynamax was legal and viable as an answer to all 3(genesect being a poor dmax abuser was also a part of it) To be frank, it was pretty obvious even when they were unbanned that dynamax wasnt going to stick around much longer, and dumping all 3 of these absolute terrors on the tier at the same time makes it exceptionally difficult to determine who the REAL problem mons are.

What really should have happened is they should have been re-suspected ONE AT A TIME. It's not too late to just banish these mons and test them each INDIVIDUALLY. Personally I'd start with Genesect after Arena Trap gets suspected.
To be clear I was actually an advocate of these mons being released when it was being discussed. I regret this now, and think the best course of action would be to bite the bullet, wipe them clean, and re-suspect them in a more controlled environment.

We can ignore deo-d because he's obviously big trash.

Also also also, it occured to me that I have been a supporter of every ban suggested thus far.
I really dont want it to seem like I am just hopping on whatever flavor train is rolling through this month; GF really handed us a big pile of trash with gen 8 and I view natdex as the last bastion of truly competitive singles. I really want this meta to succeed and gain traction in the long term. I view these mons as being detrimental to that goal.

TL;DR Start by re-banning the big 3, hold an arena trap suspect (or just QB it; let's be real a suspect on AT is a formality), then re-introduce those big 3 back into the meta one at a time, either before or after Blastoise has it's own suspect.

I know, it's a mess. I advocated for this mess. I am sorry. I would love if we could get to work on fixing this mess as soon as possible and get back to what truly matters to us; exploring what this game can offer us on a competitive and unironically intellectual level.

 

[theotherguytm]

We can ignore deo-d because he's obviously big trash.

I agree with all of this. Just want to say again that Deoxys-D was the only one of the unbanned mons that didn't get a suspect/QB in gen7. What were we thinking going against everything we learnt in Gen 7.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Would we even have half of these meta problems if we had a Clangoclause (Pokemon movesets are altered based on the most recent gen)? Its clear that some of these werent meant to exist in 2020, like SubToxic Aegislash and Shell Smash Mega Blastoise.

 

[Predator145]

Would we even have half of these meta problems if we had a Clangoclause (Pokemon movesets are altered based on the most recent gen)? Its clear that some of these werent meant to exist in 2020, like SubToxic Aegislash and Shell Smash Mega Blastoise.

BlastoiseM is already buffed as an offensive spinner due to rapid spin buff. But it looks like that poor mon will become another casualty. As far as such a clause existing, it wouldn't fit with ND philosophy of including past gen's moves. We're not sticking to cartridge play after all.

 

[VCrakeV]

I suppose I'll provide my thoughts on the Pokemon/abilities that are on the radar

Arena Trap

I'll basically reiterate what has already been said: this has to go. Arena trap has been proven to be broken time and time again, yet here we are with it unbanned again. It's inherently uncompetitive, as it prevents the opponent from switching (a central feature in competitive Pokemon). In practice, it is just as uncompetitive. Pokemon with u-turn and volt switch can safely get Dugtrio in to remove the opponent's check to your pivot. For example, Dugtrio traps Toxapex and heatran for Genesect. There's also eject button, which can help trap opposing pivots. The problem with Dugtrio is that it makes many normally fair Pokemon much more difficult to check: Zard Y, Volcarona, Lele, and Magearna, to name a few. Arena trap does not have a healthy place in the metagame, and it should be quickbanned.

Genesect

A part of Genesect's ability to plow through teams is its partner in crime, Dugtrio. That said, it is difficult to check even without Dugtrio trapping your checks. Genesect has the movepool to pick and choose its checks: thunderbolt for Toxapex, techno blast for Heatran, ice beam for would-be checks Lando and Gliscor, etcetera. However, as it has been saud before, Genesect can't have every move it would need to beat all of its checks. Because of this, and the effect arena trap has on Genesect, I believe Genesect should be suspect tested after arena trap is banned.

Other Threats

Mega Blastoise is very difficult to check defensively, and it puts a lot of stress on teambuilding. Shell smash allows it to break through would-be checks like Chansey (you know a special attacker is strong when it doesn't have secret sword or psyshock but can beat down Chansey anyway). The few checks available are either inconsistent or unviable outside of checking Blastoise. Toxapex, even with max SpD, finds itself repeatedly clicking haze and recover until it gets flinched by dark pulse. Amoonguss needs an assault vest to stand a chance against ice beam variants, and even then it struggles to do much damage through screens. Max SpD unaware Clefable does the trick, but it loses out on checking several other threats, and is generally unviable. I personally find Blastoise to be more of a problem than Dugtrio and Genesect (at least, in my experience). I'd prefer to see this suspected ASAP, but at least as soon as arena trap and Genesect are addressed.

I haven't had much trouble with Mega Metagross, and I think that's largely because it is rather tame compared to other threats on the radar. It needs luck to boost with meteor mash, and it's not too threatening without boosts. It has a bit of 4MSS, and can't really afford to run set up moves. This makes it fairly easy to revenge kill, and you can have different checks for different sets, without straining teambuilding. Stall has lots of options, like Alomomola (even with thunder punch), Tangrowth (tanks ice punch), and Quagsire. That said, if it proves problematic, suspect test it. For now, it should be on the back burner; we have bigger fish to fry.

Zygarde is utter cancer, and it should never have been unbanned. It can sweep entire teams with one attack, leaving room for dumb shit like sub tox, double set up, and glare. A part of Zygarde's claim to fame is its versatility and unpredictability. It can afford the moveslots for outrage, extreme speed, and whatever else. But glare and toxic are the real threats, and they alone are too difficult to prepare for. You may have something that is immune to glare or toxic, but it probably is taking boosted thousand arrows well. And you may have something that can wall it (unaware Pokemon mainly), but they are beaten by paralysis or toxic. Not to mention, Zygarde is really fat, meaning most of the Pokemon that can "check" it fail to break its substitutes. Just ban this already.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

While we're all on the ban circlejerk can we talk about this motherfucker?

He's that mon that everyone agreed was broken, but we never got around to banning him because of dynamax. But with all these mons in the tier, Darm is still broken imo. I think he kinda fell into obscurity because there are now better scarfers but as it stands Darm basically has zero true defensive counterplay, especially in CBCB.

So include the monkey on your "heres my same opinion as everyone else" ban lists

 

[Cabneet]

While we're all on the ban circlejerk can we talk about this motherfucker?

He's that mon that everyone agreed was broken, but we never got around to banning him because of dynamax. But with all these mons in the tier, Darm is still broken imo. I think he kinda fell into obscurity because there are now better scarfers but as it stands Darm basically has zero true defensive counterplay, especially in CBCB.

So include the monkey on your "heres my same opinion as everyone else" ban lists

I honestly dont think big brain band monkey is that bad here.
I mean first of all we have bulky waters not named Toxapex (slowbro being the best counter to g-darm I think could possibly exist; even uturn damage you just regen off) we have scizor who can take on one not locking into fire move, we have melmetal who can tank any one supereffective hit, and most importantly base 95 speed doesnt outpace most of the meta like it does in gen 8.
It might still be warranting a suspect but I totally see why it's not viewed as the same problem it is in gen 8 ou and I think we have some bigger snacks on our plate we need to get through first.

Edit to phrase it better after I already made the post; natdex has more CORES that shut down Darm-g than individual mons. Your steel type might die to Flare blitz but you are much more likely to have a mon that takes on that choice by default. I feel like the burden of prediction is much more in the hands of the darm user in natdex than it is on the player on the receiving end and as a result most darm-gs just spam U-turn until hazards go up and they are pressured into taking risks.

 

[VCrakeV]

While we're all on the ban circlejerk can we talk about this motherfucker?

He's that mon that everyone agreed was broken, but we never got around to banning him because of dynamax. But with all these mons in the tier, Darm is still broken imo. I think he kinda fell into obscurity because there are now better scarfers but as it stands Darm basically has zero true defensive counterplay, especially in CBCB.

So include the monkey on your "heres my same opinion as everyone else" ban lists

I agree that Darm-G is overbearing, and puts too much pressure on teambuilding. I was going to mention it, but I figured everyone else would have shot it down. That said, there is one counter: Alomomola. I feel like I need this on every team because of that damn dirty ape. Other switch ins either drop to banded sets (e.g Jellicent), drop to scarf sets (e.g Toxapex), or get worn down by u-turn (e.g Pyukumuk).

 

[astralydia]

I agree that Darm-G is overbearing, and puts too much pressure on teambuilding. I was going to mention it, but I figured everyone else would have shot it down. That said, there is one counter: Alomomola. I feel like I need this on every team because of that damn dirty ape. Other switch ins either drop to banded sets (e.g Jellicent), drop to scarf sets (e.g Toxapex), or get worn down by u-turn (e.g Pyukumuk).

I think there's more counterplay to Galarmitan here than what's being said. First off, Slowbro and Mega Slowbro take some fair beating from U-turn but can generally recover it off, either with Regen or simply being able to get multiple switchins to recover from. As well as this, a lot of mons now benefit from having Protect-like moves on their moveset, such as Toxapex having Baneful Bunker, Heatran being a good Protect user and Zygarde abusing Toxic Spikes with Protect. This means it's harder for Galarmitan to actually put out as much damage as it says on the tin and for this reason I don't think it's too hard to build for right now. The Choice Band set also has good offensive counterplay as it is tough to get in without VoltTurn / Teleport support, and the likes of Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross and Melmetal are good picks for soft checks. Choice Scarf also has Mega Blastoise as a solid check under Screens and whilst it can U-turn out it isn't exactly game over for Hyper Offense teams utilizing it.

 

[theotherguytm]

Would we even have half of these meta problems if we had a Clangoclause (Pokemon movesets are altered based on the most recent gen)? Its clear that some of these werent meant to exist in 2020, like SubToxic Aegislash and Shell Smash Mega Blastoise.

I'd love to agree with this, but it implies moves like Pursuit and HP only being available to mons Dexited, and it getting removed from them when they are added in a DLC. The idea is great, but there's no way to apply it consistently unless we want to do complex bans on things like Mega Blastiose+Shell Smash, which is nerfing mons-strictly against ridding policy. So we're stuck.

 

[Funbot28]

We will not be going back on removing dexited moves on pokemon at this point in time. Please keep the discussion on topic.