Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

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Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
Dracovish cant really be called broken and heres why. The entire metagame isn't centralized around dracovish and no one is at a particular disadvantage when not using dracovish. That being said what I think about dracovish is that the scarf set is more manageable than the band set. The band set I do think constraints teambuilding a bit but there are more than just one check/counter for it. No one is punished for running something like seismitoad for dracovish is it viable outside that role as solid stealth rock user and np rotom-h check. Now if dracovish only check/counter were something incredibly niche like say a storm drain/water absorb maractus then it would be considered in the realm of brokenness.
ya I’m gonna stop you right there and say that you havent tried actually teambuilding or if youre just not that experienced because what you said was just wrong bruh bruh.

If you have tried building in any way you'd find that Dracovish is absolutely oppressive. Some teams get auto swept by it's absurdity. For example it can oko mandibuzz from full on the switch. This is why people are running water immunities on nearly every team, mainly the seimitoad - Clefable - corvinight core.

". No one is punished for running something like seismitoad for dracovish is it"
you absolutely are. toad is legit dead weight other than it's spot for Stealth rocks and water immunity and what happens when it dies? it cant recover unless ur running rest but then I ask, what happens when that shit dies because it absolutely inevitably will, a lot of the time pretty easily. People are also running Vaporeon which is like ok whatever but the fact that you have to do that is insane. You do not know if it's banded or scarfed and I guarantee that you will lose 2 mons figuring it out on average. like come on dude, have you actually tried making teams this generation?
 
Dracovish cant really be called broken and heres why. The entire metagame isn't centralized around dracovish and no one is at a particular disadvantage when not using dracovish. That being said what I think about dracovish is that the scarf set is more manageable than the band set. The band set I do think constraints teambuilding a bit but there are more than just one check/counter for it. No one is punished for running something like seismitoad for dracovish is it viable outside that role as solid stealth rock user and np rotom-h check. Now if dracovish only check/counter were something incredibly niche like say a storm drain/water absorb maractus then it would be considered in the realm of brokenness.
Overcentralization is only one part of being broken, though (plus you could argue the ubiquity of Water immunities is a result of Dracovish's influence on the metagame). Another part is constraining teambuilding, which you mentioned yourself, and here we get into a debate about whether or not mandating a Water immunity is restraining enough to be considered broken, which really isn't an argument I care to have right now while that three-headed cancer cell is still running rampant in OU. Oh, also, Dracovish can 2HKO any Water immunity anyways so there's that. Dracovish on Rain is a particular bitch to deal with because if it can weaken your Gastrodon or Seismitoad or whatever it can allow a Pokemon like Barraskewda to run through your weakened team, so it cares less if it goes down in the process.
 
I think Dracovish doesn't really seem broken because no one is really using it in tournament and it doesn't have exceptional usage on the ladder
But the thing is that almost every single team on the ladder and a large percentage of tournament teams are running some sort of dedicated Fishous Rend answer. Maybe people would be running Seismitoad just as much with Dracovish gone, but probably they wouldn't.
If people want to compare this to Darmanitan that's fine but I would posit the idea that something with 0-1 viable answers and something with 3-4 viable answers are not that far off from each other. I'd like to play on a ladder without Dracovish for a little while just to see what impact it has on team building, I think that's really the only way to accurately assess whether this mon is having a detrimental effect on the OU meta.
 

zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
here we get into a debate about whether or not mandating a Water immunity is restraining enough to be considered broken, which really isn't an argument I care to have right now while that three-headed cancer cell is still running rampant in OU. Oh, also, Dracovish can 2HKO any Water immunity anyways so there's that. Dracovish on Rain is a particular bitch to deal with because if it can weaken your Gastrodon or Seismitoad or whatever it can allow a Pokemon like Barraskewda to run through your weakened team, so it cares less if it goes down in the process.
wanna know what's crazier? vish can literally click any other coverage move to chip off your toad who can't effectively heal up unless you're wish passing and then just click rend late game to clean up or have another mon to pick you off. wanna know why rain is actually shit in this metagame? because we are all running an abundance of water checks because we don't want to lose a mon due to a mispredict on a vish play. on top of that, the metagame is full of fat mons, making a breaker like vish, and to some extent zolt as well, even more potent.

but i dont think vish is that huge of an issue atm compared to duggy tho.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
I feel like Dugtrio/Arena Trap is a bigger problem than Dracovish, personally. Dugtrio shapes the metagame just as much as Vish does, and teams need to be just as careful to not be weak to it as they do to Vish. The problem is, sticking one mon on your team doesn't fix a Dugtrio weakness. You can slap Seismitoad or Gastrodon or whatever on your team and have good counterplay against Dracovish. Unless you want to use something stupid like Eject Button Toxapex into a Scarf Dugtrio of your own, reliable counterplay to Dugtrio really doesn't exist per the nature of trapping abilities. How many times are we going to repeat this cycle of leaving AT in OU because maybe just maybe it might not be broken this time around until we accept the fact that it's a fundamentally unbalanced ability that, in its current form, has no place in OU in any generation?
It wasn’t deemed unbalanced in gen 3 and 4 as far as I know. One might argue that the combination of player preview and trapping is the problem, whereas I think that the unknown presence of a trapper only increases its power.
Is it good? Yes. Is it uncompetitive? Hell no. Trapping abilities are not inherently uncompetitive since they are still unbanned in older gens, and magnezone is a trapper that never got banned in the first place even though it traps (albeit a smaller pokemon pool, we are dealing with trapping as an uncompetitive ability) in the same fashion.

So yea, don’t ban dugtrio since arena trap is not uncompetitive and it actually helps the meta dealing with offensive threats and stallbreakers.
 

Apagogie

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". No one is punished for running something like seismitoad for dracovish is it"
you absolutely are. toad is legit dead weight other than it's spot for Stealth rocks and water immunity and what happens when it dies? it cant recover unless ur running rest but then I ask, what happens when that shit dies because it absolutely inevitably will, a lot of the time pretty easily. People are also running Vaporeon which is like ok whatever but the fact that you have to do that is insane. You do not know if it's banded or scarfed and I guarantee that you will lose 2 mons figuring it out on average. like come on dude, have you actually tried making teams this generation?
Your post is aggressive for no reason.
Seismitoad has always been used in OU so I don't know where you read it was a deadweight. Its utility is not limited to Dracovish, it's also a rotom heat answer which doesn't have many other real counters outside of gastrodon and this kind of mons.

The restriction of teambuilding is a valid argument in itself. I don't have much to add to that.
However, the purpose of a wallbreaker is to break mons and compared to other wallbreakers such as Specs/Band Aegislash or Conkeldurr, Dracovish has a hard time doing its job. It can threat the team only when Seismitoad or the water resist is gone which is honestly already an important restriction for this kind of mons and which relies often on winning 50/50s which are sometimes deadful for Dracovish or which causes a loss of momentum . Not the mention it is relatively difficult to switch into Dracovish for free considering Corviknight can U-turn, melodelfe can scout the move with protect, it cannot either switch on things such as Seismitoad/toxapex due to scald burn. You have to play aggressively or use pivot moves to let dracovish coming for free and, after that, win a 50/50 to chip the dracovish's answer. Honestly, that looks really reasonable for me, especially comparing to mons such as NP Hydreigon or Aegislash. The low usage of Dracovish in tournament explains that well, even if obviously usage doesn't mean viability.

Lasty, even if Dracovish didn't have any defensive switch in (and it has switch ins), don't have any switch in doesn't necessary mean something is broken. Hoopa didn't have switch ins last gen, even trash mons such as Ursaring didn't have a single switch in and it was never considered broken in the highest tiers. Support a mon such as Dracovish has a cost in the teambuilding since it is really match up based and pretty useless against offenses or as long as the water immunity in the opposite team is alive. Dracovish is not at the same time band, scarf, unlocked, in rain and with dugtrio to make it offensively and defensively totally impossible to deal with either. It's the kind of mon which is better in theory than it is in practise.

The only reasonable argument to ban Dracovish would be the fact that it restricts the teambuilding but I don't think we should be ban happy about that considering Dracovish haven't done great performances until now.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
Your post is aggressive for no reason.
Seismitoad has always been used in OU so I don't know where you read it was a deadweight. Its utility is not limited to Dracovish, it's also a rotom heat answer which doesn't have many other real counters outside of gastrodon and this kind of mons.

The restriction of teambuilding is a valid argument in itself. I don't have much to add to that.
However, the purpose of a wallbreaker is to break mons and compared to other wallbreakers such as Specs/Band Aegislash or Conkeldurr, Dracovish has a hard time doing its job. It can threat the team only when Seismitoad or the water resist is gone which is honestly already an important restriction for this kind of mons and which relies often on winning 50/50s which are sometimes deadful for Dracovish or which causes a loss of momentum . Not the mention it is relatively difficult to switch into Dracovish for free considering Corviknight can U-turn, melodelfe can scout the move with protect, it cannot either switch on things such as Seismitoad/toxapex due to scald burn. You have to play aggressively or use pivot moves to let dracovish coming for free and, after that, win a 50/50 to chip the dracovish's answer. Honestly, that looks really reasonable for me, especially comparing to mons such as NP Hydreigon or Aegislash. The low usage of Dracovish in tournament explains that well, even if obviously usage doesn't mean viability.

Lasty, even if Dracovish didn't have any defensive switch in (and it has switch ins), don't have any switch in doesn't necessary mean something is broken. Hoopa didn't have switch ins last gen, even trash mons such as Ursaring didn't have a single switch in and it was never considered broken in the highest tiers. Support a mon such as Dracovish has a cost in the teambuilding since it is really match up based and pretty useless against offenses or as long as the water immunity in the opposite team is alive. Dracovish is not at the same time band, scarf, unlocked, in rain and with dugtrio to make it offensively and defensively totally impossible to deal with either. It's the kind of mon which is better in theory than it is in practise.

The only reasonable argument to ban Dracovish would be the fact that it restricts the teambuilding but I don't think we should be ban happy about that considering Dracovish haven't done great performances until now.
"Seismitoad has always been used in OU so I don't know where you read it was a deadweight."

- this is just a wrong statement and I will not address it further than that.


"The low usage of Dracovish in tournament explains that well, even if obviously usage doesn't mean viability."

- this is also a wrong statement. the low usage is because every Person is running nearly identical teams with water immunities everywhere; you dont find that to be an issue? You're honestly gonna sit here and saying that mandating a water immunity on every team regardless of structure is the wave?


"Lasty, even if Dracovish didn't have any defensive switch in (and it has switch ins), don't have any switch in doesn't necessary mean something is broken. Hoopa didn't have switch ins last gen, even trash mons such as Ursaring didn't have a single switch in and it was never considered broken in the highest tiers."

- these are false equivalencies of the highest pedigree. not only are both of these mons slower (scarf hoopa was switched into but could be teched and only storm zone and I ever ran that set), their damage output is not remotely the same. I actually called for hoopa-unbounds ban a few times so that actually hurts your point. the abundance of high tier broken fairies oppressed hoopa U. ursaring was only used on trick room and it was fire but that's trick room. not remotely the same. it also didnt oko everything for free (band vish).


'The only reasonable argument to ban Dracovish would be the fact that it restricts the teambuilding but I don't think we should be ban happy about that considering Dracovish haven't done great performances until now.'

- the reason the teams are so nearly identical this damn early should tell you what's happening. I promise you, having a water immunity on every single team isn't normal. in fact, I think you havent actually tried to team build, there's not a chance you have if youre saying this. I actually want to see your teams and replays, please provide them.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
Dracovish has only 4 immunities switch ins (gastrodoon/seism/vaporeon/jellicent). Gastro and seism are the better ones whereas vaporeon is pretty terrible and would not be run at all if the tier wasn't in dire need of water immunities and wishers. Thunder is mostly right anyway, especially seism is a mediocre mon that would be way lower if we didn't have dracovish. Dracovish also has 2 switch ins, toxapex and ferrothorn.
Jellicent is 2hko'd by crunch unless it runs colbur (terrible item) and it's also worse than vaporeon so won't bother with it.

Both switch ins have their problems, especially ferrothorn since it has no reliable recover and gets 2hko'ed, whereas toxapex has to run baneful bunker (I find this move to be objectively inferior to the premium toxic or the mandated-haze, but whatever it's still good) and has pretty good recovery in the form of regenerator (while also threatening status). I'd also point out that dracovish can run rest as a 4th move which is surprisingly good and makes toxapex worse while making the fish harder to chip down in general.

At the end of the day you have 2 checks, one quite unreliable at that, and 3 absorbers (realistically 2 good ones). Everything else gets completely obliterated and destroyed. I haven't seen such a huge strain on teambuilding since the first appearance of aegislash. Ban this thing please.
 

AnimaticLunatic

I COULD BE BANNED!
Dracovish cant really be called broken and heres why. The entire metagame isn't centralized around dracovish and no one is at a particular disadvantage when not using dracovish. That being said what I think about dracovish is that the scarf set is more manageable than the band set. The band set I do think constraints teambuilding a bit but there are more than just one check/counter for it. No one is punished for running something like seismitoad for dracovish is it viable outside that role as solid stealth rock user and np rotom-h check. Now if dracovish only check/counter were something incredibly niche like say a storm drain/water absorb maractus then it would be considered in the realm of brokenness.
Dravovish can 3 shot most of his checks. Water immunity was never such a big deal in gens until it came into the picture. The thing is, unlike in national pokedex, speed is not really that major determent in this generation (the fastest pokemon usually was 95 scarfed gorilla which tells you a lot).
Which favors dracovish mindless spam mostly playstyle. His only real checks/counters in this generarion are water absorb pokemon (which is mostly toad but he is also good because he can deal with mindless u turn spamming bunny and rotom forms (expect grass) and is one of only stealth rock setters) and defensive (not specially) ferrathorn and toxapex (but since there are more special attackers in this gen it is not really worth it running them like that). Other things just get 2 shot at most with his own water stabbed attack.
 
I'd also point out that dracovish can run rest as a 4th move which is surprisingly good
sorry for the ignorance, but what set can fit rest without losing the advantages of either scarf or band? or is this a "get locked into rest so you heal and then switch out" situation?

I do think vish should be suspect tested sometime. thunder said it best, to be honest. it just forces you to run a pokemon that doesnt fit most cores or take a shot and risk getting revenge killed by vish. I dont have any opinions on duggy but I wouldnt mind seeing it suspect tested soon either
 
It wasn’t deemed unbalanced in gen 3 and 4 as far as I know. One might argue that the combination of player preview and trapping is the problem, whereas I think that the unknown presence of a trapper only increases its power.
Is it good? Yes. Is it uncompetitive? Hell no. Trapping abilities are not inherently uncompetitive since they are still unbanned in older gens, and magnezone is a trapper that never got banned in the first place even though it traps (albeit a smaller pokemon pool, we are dealing with trapping as an uncompetitive ability) in the same fashion.

So yea, don’t ban dugtrio since arena trap is not uncompetitive and it actually helps the meta dealing with offensive threats and stallbreakers.
Are we just going to pretend like Wobbuffet and Wynaut weren't banned in gen 3 and 4? Or that Arena Trap didn't get banned from BW OU like two years ago? Trapping abilities have been uncompetitive since the beginning, people just take forever to realize it because they usually come attached to shitmons like Dugtrio and Magnezone instead of obvious bullshit like Mega Gengar. (Magnezone would be low ladder UU at best without Magnet Pull, I will die on this hill)

In any case, even if you don't believe trapping abilities are inherently broken, it doesn't make any sense to compare the Dugtrio from gens 3 and 4 to now. The Duggy we're dealing with has 20 more base Attack and team preview on its side in a meta where Dynamax is banned and there's even less options to deal with Arena Trap than the last three generations that banned it. The situations aren't comparable.

I feel like we're in the same rut with Dugtrio that we were in with Deoxys-D and S a few years back.

It's fuckin Dugtrio. We all know what it does: the same exact shit as last time. Why do we even keep doing this to ourselves?
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I don't get what's so hard to understand about Arena Trap. The only reason it survived the early metagame was because Dynamax fucked it over. Now that that mechanic's gone the abusers can keep doing the same uncompetitive, absurd bullshit they've been doing literally since team preview came to exist and that they've gotten the ability banned for every single time.

If the council can't provide an adequate explanation for what exactly changed to magically make Arena Trap not a cancer (spoiler alert: absolutely nothing, it's still the same garbage that drives down skill and makes games frustrating to play), it should be immediately quickbanned without further discussion.
 
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Are we just going to pretend like Wobbuffet and Wynaut weren't banned in gen 3 and 4? Or that Arena Trap didn't get banned from BW OU like two years ago? Trapping abilities have been uncompetitive since the beginning, people just take forever to realize it because they usually come attached to shitmons like Dugtrio and Magnezone instead of obvious bullshit like Mega Gengar. (Magnezone would be low ladder UU at best without Magnet Pull, I will die on this hill)
Game Freak balances out powerful abilities by giving it to otherwise-weak Pokemon. If simply making a weak Pokemon OU was enough to warrant a ban, Huge Power would have been gone a long time ago. By ignoring that and thinking along the lines of "what if an actually good Pokemon had it", we are putting Arena Trap on trial for what it hypothetically could be rather than what it actually is. We're theorymonning, in other words.
 
Game Freak balances out powerful abilities by giving it to otherwise-weak Pokemon. If simply making a weak Pokemon OU was enough to warrant a ban, Huge Power would have been gone a long time ago. By ignoring that and thinking along the lines of "what if an actually good Pokemon had it", we are putting Arena Trap on trial for what it hypothetically could be rather than what it actually is. We're theorymonning, in other words.
Not really theorymonning when arena trap exists in the meta and operates at a high level of competitiveness in the meta even though its on Dugtrio but go off
 
Game Freak balances out powerful abilities by giving it to otherwise-weak Pokemon. If simply making a weak Pokemon OU was enough to warrant a ban, Huge Power would have been gone a long time ago. By ignoring that and thinking along the lines of "what if an actually good Pokemon had it", we are putting Arena Trap on trial for what it hypothetically could be rather than what it actually is. We're theorymonning, in other words.
Except we're not at all and I'm not even sure how you could possibly think this. We're talking about Dugtrio's effects on the metagame right now, not in some theoretical metagame or on some theoretical user. Did you, like, read any of the other posts on this thread, or only read that one part of a single post and think that it was a summary of the entire argument against Arena Trap?
 
Game Freak balances out powerful abilities by giving it to otherwise-weak Pokemon. If simply making a weak Pokemon OU was enough to warrant a ban, Huge Power would have been gone a long time ago. By ignoring that and thinking along the lines of "what if an actually good Pokemon had it", we are putting Arena Trap on trial for what it hypothetically could be rather than what it actually is. We're theorymonning, in other words.
You might have a point if people didn't also have success with trapinch and diglet in the past after the dugtrio ban, showing that the ability to trap grounded mons is inherently broken, not simply that dugtrio is too oppressive with arena trap, and subsequently leading to the ban of arena trap as a whole on all mons. Huge power is obviously not an inherently broken ability because the mons that have it are manageable. If huge power was inherently broken, any mon with it should be expected to be overbearing. When a completely trash prevo like DIGLET is viable in OU, it's the ability that's the problem.

I don't think anyone is arguing that abilities that can make weak mons OU are broken. That's missing the point. If that were the case, adaptability on crawdaunt would be on trial this gen, sableye would have been banned a couple gens ago, and quagsire would never see the light of day in ou stall. Abilities are part of what makes certain mons viable. In this case, arena trap is just an uncompetitive mechanic.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
In any case, even if you don't believe trapping abilities are inherently broken, it doesn't make any sense to compare the Dugtrio from gens 3 and 4 to now. The Duggy we're dealing with has 20 more base Attack and team preview on its side in a meta where Dynamax is banned and there's even less options to deal with Arena Trap than the last three generations that banned it. The situations aren't comparable.
Dugtrio also lost the powerful Z moves, not only that but your point is not that trapping is an uncompetitive ability (because that would make dugtrio a problem even without the 20 atk buff) but that dugtrio is fundamentally overpowered. Which is something I don't really agree on, at all. I understand though that a lot of the playerbase is growing increasingly frustated with it, which will lead to a ban sooner or later anyway.
sorry for the ignorance, but what set can fit rest without losing the advantages of either scarf or band? or is this a "get locked into rest so you heal and then switch out" situation?
Yes, I actually had a good replay showing it but I can't find it again, but you use it as a heal and then switch out (it was paired with aromatherapy clefable in order to make it even better).
 
Is it good? Yes. Is it uncompetitive? Hell no. Trapping abilities are not inherently uncompetitive since they are still unbanned in older gens, and magnezone is a trapper that never got banned in the first place even though it traps (albeit a smaller pokemon pool, we are dealing with trapping as an uncompetitive ability) in the same fashion.

So yea, don’t ban dugtrio since arena trap is not uncompetitive and it actually helps the meta dealing with offensive threats and stallbreakers.
I bolded the most blatant issue with this post. I'm not gonna get it into the absurdity of comparing arena trap and magnet pull, or how through years of debate and high level (and low level) play and usage, smogon has come to the conclusion that arena trap is uncompetitive in almost every single gen it exists in, but saying something is not uncompetitive in one gen just because it's not uncompetitive in another is just so wrong. Every meta is vastly different from the last, and the false logic above has never been used to justify a decision smogon has made.

Game Freak balances out powerful abilities by giving it to otherwise-weak Pokemon. If simply making a weak Pokemon OU was enough to warrant a ban, Huge Power would have been gone a long time ago. By ignoring that and thinking along the lines of "what if an actually good Pokemon had it", we are putting Arena Trap on trial for what it hypothetically could be rather than what it actually is. We're theorymonning, in other words.
Except we're using and playing against dugtrio in practice so it's the opposite of theorymonning? And anyway, the test would be the opposite of what you're suggesting: you don't give the broken abilitiy to a good mon and see if that makes it broken, the result is obvious. You instead give the broken ability to a shitmon and see if that makes it broken. As we saw in the last duggy suspect, diglett can be employed to trap many of the same targets that dugtrio traps. The issue will only worsen when Home comes out and dug gets even more targets.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
I bolded the most blatant issue with this post. I'm not gonna get it into the absurdity of comparing arena trap and magnet pull, or how through years of debate and high level (and low level) play and usage, smogon has come to the conclusion that arena trap is uncompetitive in almost every single gen it exists in, but saying something is not uncompetitive in one gen just because it's not uncompetitive in another is just so wrong. Every meta is vastly different from the last, and the false logic above has never been used to justify a decision smogon has made.
The difference between gen 3 and gen 4 are not high enough to warrant differencing the abilities. It's not like they are fundamentally different games.
Magnet pull is uncompetitive in the same fashion arena trap is uncompetitive. I've always been of this opinion even though most people here are fine with magnezone (it being an anti-stall mon is a huge plus for the community, anyway).
 

hero

amiwos :J
I want to bring up an awesome mon that I've been testing for the last couple of days

Pelipper @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Weather Ball
- Hurricane
- Surf
- U-turn

So anyone who played the earlier stages of SM OU should be aware of this things power. Specs Pelipper has a niche in being an extremely powerful wallbreaker that can punch holes in a lot of cookiecutter team structures that are so omnipresent nowadays. Weather Ball is a very strong 100BP STAB move under the rain with 100% accuracy which allows Pelipper to avoid using Hydro Pump. Weather Ball does crazy damage and 2HKOs most of the metagame right now, while Hurricane does over 80% to Seismitoad, which means that if you manage to catch it on the switch you just opened a massive hole in your opponent's team. Surf helps catching Tyranitar, Hippo and sun setters on the switch, while U-Turn is a move I find myself rarely clicking but obviously has its place in this set. Something else of note is that is a pretty consistent way of taking advantage of a teleprahed switch in to Corviknight or Cinderace, which may work well for a team that likes to keep hazards up.

This thing benefits from hazard control and a solid team backing it to be able to bring it in safely, so things like U-Turn Corviknight or Rotom are very good partners. Offensively, teammates that benefit from weakened Toxapex, fairy or Seismitoad appreciate Pelipper's ability to break through those guys. Of course you'll be needing a solid Dracovish counter too, since you're giving it rain and all (Dracovish happens to be an awesome partner for this too!)

And hey, it's a wallbreaker that doesn't get trapped by soon-to-be-suspect-tested Dugtrio.

Here are some replays to showcase it
This replay against a pretty standard team showcases what Pelipper can do

In this one, Pelipper had a pretty bad matchup in theory, but still manages to consistently damage the opposing team and eventually catching the Corviknight with an OHKO!

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 300-354 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight in Rain: 367-433 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight in Rain: 261-307 (65.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon in Rain: 177-209 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 210-247 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 124+ SpD Sylveon in Rain: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (this one is forced to protect which allows you to bring something else!)
 

Zneon

uh oh
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The Arena Trap discussion is really interesting, I mean the general consensus is that Arena Trap is unhealthy and broken. But I do think there is one question that I think is relevant to this topic, should Arena Trap be suspected or quickbanned. I think this is a fairly reasonable topic because of the fact that the SPL XI has already started, and secondly because there was a previous suspect on it last gen, so there can be arguments as to way it can be suspected instead.

Anyways my opinion on this is pretty standard and I don't think it is going to change, and I think it should be quickbanned. Trapping in general is incredibly uncompetitive as it removes a fundamental part of the game which is being able to switch, meaning that if your mon isn't going for U-turn or kills that Dugtrio, you are going to lose that mon. Dugtrio just fits on almost every team style because of this and still performs the same function consistently, making it both irritating and oppressing to play against. It's just a complete nightmare to play against and I think it should be gone as soon as possible.
 
It gives you counterplay, though. Not perfect counterplay, but that's more than can be said for any Pokemon you'd add to your team to deal with Dugtrio (that's also not mentioning Vish checks like Gastrodon and Vaporeon that have recovery). I'm also not trying to say that Vish isn't necessarily broken, but Dugtrio is the far more pressing issue in my eyes, and I think SPL where Vish saw almost 0 usage while Dugtrio was on every other team (and swung games in several cases) is a good indicator of this.
I'm not admitting that it doesn't at least mitigate the Vish problem.
And I'm definitely not saying Vish is broken, I'm saying it's unhealthy.
Toad is counterplay to Dugtrio.
Corv is counterplay. Any ghost can switch out. Buzz can switch out.
etc.
Plus while some things are weak to Dugtrio such as Tox, other meta staples like Toad and Corv are simply impervious to Dugtrio.
 
I'm not admitting that it doesn't at least mitigate the Vish problem.
And I'm definitely not saying Vish is broken, I'm saying it's unhealthy.
Toad is counterplay to Dugtrio.
Corv is counterplay. Any ghost can switch out. Buzz can switch out.
etc.
Plus while some things are weak to Dugtrio such as Tox, other meta staples like Toad and Corv are simply impervious to Dugtrio.
I don't mean to sound rude and I'm sorry if I do, but you've been doing this for a while and I've had various people complain to me about this, but it is not that hard to speak in comprehensive sentences. From this point onwards, I am requiring you to make actually thought out, comprehensive posts. This isn't aimed only at you, this also counts for anyone else looking to post; it's just that you've been doing it a lot recently.
 
I'd rather Arena Trap get quickbanned. It was banworthy last generation, and nothing has changed for it since then. In my opinion it should never have been unbanned to begin with.
I'm not admitting that it doesn't at least mitigate the Vish problem.
And I'm definitely not saying Vish is broken, I'm saying it's unhealthy.
Toad is counterplay to Dugtrio.
Corv is counterplay. Any ghost can switch out. Buzz can switch out.
etc.
Plus while some things are weak to Dugtrio such as Tox, other meta staples like Toad and Corv are simply impervious to Dugtrio.
None of these Pokemon stop Dugtrio from doing what it's supposed to do. Slapping a Corviknight or Seismitoad on your team is not going to stop Dugtrio from trapping your Tyranitar or Toxapex or whatever. Slapping a Water immunity on your team, on the other hand, at the very least is going to stop Dracovish from coming in and clicking Fishious Rend 6 times and winning. Dracovish is a wallbreaker, and the presence of a Water immunity makes that role more difficult to successfully pull off. Dugtrio is not a wallbreaker, Dugtrio is a trapper, and the presence of Pokemon it can't trap isn't going to stop it from trapping the ones that it can. You can't simply switch to a check like you can with Dracovish because Arena Trap denies you that fundamental component of counterplay. We already went through this last generation, there were plenty of Pokemon in Gen 7 that Dugtrio couldn't trap as well. Nothing has fundamentally changed since then.
 
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