Resource National Dex Viability Rankings [update post #116]

[Guard]

One look at the VR is sufficient to note that the contemporary version, the upper echelon in particular, is already slightly outdated. This is something I wanted to bring under attention for a couple of days now, and after extensive playtesting, I feel confident enough to elaborately phrase my thoughts. Do note that some of these proposals might be slightly controversial.

Changes

S Rank:

Genesect
Metagross-Mega
Zygarde

A Rank:

A+

Aegislash
Blastoise-Mega
Clefable
Darmanitan-Galar
Ferrothorn
Heatran
Slowbro
Tangrowth
Tapu Fini
Tornadus-Therian
Toxapex

A

Alakazam-Mega
Corviknight
Dragapult
Greninja
Greninja-Ash
Kartana
Landorus-Therian
Lopunny-Mega
Magnezone
Rotom-Heat
Volcarona

A-

Chansey
Ditto
Excadrill
Hydreigon
Magearna
Medicham-Mega
Mew
Scizor-Mega
Slowbro-Mega
Tyranitar
Tyranitar-Mega
Zapdos

Rises:
Clefable A >>> A+
Clefable is a very effective addition to Balance teams right now. Its utility in being able to act as a status absorber, Stealth Rock setter or Wish passer paired with its ability to cripple a vast majority of switch-ins (e.g. Heatran, Mega Metagross, Aegislash, Volcarona) with Thunder Wave, its capability of providing a good check to the likes of Zygarde, Mega Lopunny, Hydreigon and Dragapult, and finally its ability to find an ample amount of turns it can switch into play against a majority of currently popular Balance Pokemon in order to do its job, all amount to a Pokemon that is very self-sufficient and effective in providing a plethora of support options to its team.

Darmanitan-Galar A >>> A+
See previous post

Slowbro A- >>> A+
Slowbro, similarly to Toxapex, is a crucial part of many contemporary Balance structures, having its own set of distinct niches that allow it to distinguish itself from Toxapex and Tapu Fini. Most notably, Slowbro is quite easily the best Mega Metagross and Zygarde check out of the three, while also checking Darmanitan admirably. This combined with the fact that these are ubiquitous in the current metagame, means that Slowbro often gets a lot of opportunities to directly switch into play in order to easily regain momentum through Teleport, making it a very effective pivot in the current metagame.

Tapu Fini A >>> A+
I realize this might be slightly harder to justify, but I do genuinely think that Tapu Fini is at the same level as Toxapex and Slowbro, even though it is more prone to getting overwhelmed. Tapu Fini Balance is a sight as common Slowbro and Toxapex Balance, and this is because Tapu Fini, much like Slowbro, easily distinguishes itself from its fellow Water-types due to offering a unique set of traits. Notably, Tapu Fini diminishes the need of a Defogger, as it does a good job at defogging away hazards itself from the likes of Heatran, Toxapex and Ash-Greninja. Moreover, it is the only Water-type capable of taking on Mega Blastoise, Ash-Greninja, Hydreigon and Heatran without being punished whatsoever. Add the fact that it provides additional support through Knock Off and the often-clutch Misty Terrain, and you have got a Pokemon that, at least in my eyes, is just as appealing to run on a Balance team as Slowbro and Toxapex.

Tornadus-Therian A >>> A+
Tornadus-Therian has once again reinstated itself as an extremely efficient pivot with its defensive Rocky Helmet/Heavy Duty Boots set, while remaining a fearsome wallbreaker with Flyinium Z/Metronome, and continuing to be among the tiers premier defoggers. Notably, the effectiveness of both sets is enhanced due to the absence of Tapu Koko, leaving only Corviknight, Heatran, Zapdos and Rotom-Heat as somewhat reliable defensive answers, and even these do not appreciate losing their items at all, and, apart from Zapdos, get U-turned on anyway. It remains very hard to properly take advantage of Tornadus-Therian, while it in turn is easily capable of continuously making progress whenever it is pivoted into play.

Alakazam-Mega B+ >>> A
Mega Alakazam excels at taking advantage of the relative passivity of current Balance cores and breaking these down due to the absence of Celesteela, Magearna being less prominent, and due to its ability to 2OHKO Corviknight on the switch after minimal chip. The fact that it can defeat the primary Psychic resists of this tier on the long run (Mega Metagross, Aegislash, Heatran, Ferrothorn) often makes it able to win matchups from team preview and this potential is correctly reflected by an A-ranking.

Magnezone A- >>> A
Although Magnezone is somewhat matchup-reliant, its ability to trap and eliminate/weaken several key Pokemon in the current metagame such as Mega Metagross, Genesect, Ferrothorn and Corviknight in addition to other threats such as Kartana and Mega Scizor makes it a pivotal Pokemon in many matchups and gives it a niche that is more relevant than an A- ranking seems to insinuate.

Rotom-Heat B+ >>> A
See above post

Hydreigon B+ >>> A-
Hydreigon has cemented itself as one of the tier's most fierce wallbreakers due to its flagship Nasty Plot sets being able to easily break down common defensive cores not consisting of Tapu Fini, with its coverage moves able to be tailored to its team's specific demands.

Drops:
Kartana A+ >>> A
Currently, Kartana is more of a luxury to have and does not have the splashability of other A+ residents, due to Band being outclassed by Mega Metagross and Scarf facing stiff competition from the likes of Darmanitan and Genesect, both of which offer better breaking qualities. However, the general threat level of SD-Z sets is relevant enough to keep it at A.

Landorus-Therian A+ >>> A
Similarly to Kartana, Landorus-Therian is a luxury and does not have the splashability that was ever so characteristic for it. Defensive sets tend to get overwhelmed very quickly due to the likes of Mega Metagross and Zygarde, and fail to keep up rocks against the tier's three best defoggers in Tornadus-Therian, Tapu Fini and Corviknight, while the general compressing prowess of its Scarf set is no longer as desired as it once was. However, the general threat level of SD-Z sets is relevant enough to keep it at A.

 

[Sputnik]

I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring here and give my opinions on some things.

FWIW I agree with basically all of what Guard said EXCEPT

A+ -> A-

This might seem drastic, I know, but Landorus only has one really good set right now: Offensive Z-Move with Stealth Rock. Scarf sets have extremely heavy competition from our other scarfers, defensive is weak to a ton of common stuff, and the suicide lead is outclassed by Mew. Even its "good" set has problems. Namely, a relatively poor speed tier for an offensive Pokemon and the extremely tough call between Rockium and Flyinium Z. It's a dangerous breaker to be sure, but its not on the level of the other A+ or even A Pokemon in my opinion. A- is the right place for it.

Other nominations

A- -> B+

Medicham doesn't do so hot in a meta where a lot of teams are equipped to pivot around it and have stuff that is faster than it. It also has to run Fire Punch if it wants to hit Aegislash, or Thunder Punch for Slowbro which really sucks for it because it would much rather run Ice Punch. Really tough call for it. Most teams can either dance around it or just straight wear it down and kill it. Not up to par with the A ranks right now in my opinion.

B+ -> B-

Dracovish performs poorly against the bulky Water-Grass cores that are everywhere right now. Its a very matchup dependent wallbreaker; it seems like it either wins you the game or does nothing. Right now that is most comparable to Mega Charizard Y, which I personally believe is in the right spot. B- is the right spot in my opinion.

C -> B-

This thing does really well against bulkier cores and has the added benefit of Knock Off, which lets it destroy both Aegislash and (non-Mega) Slowbro, which is something that Medicham doesn't have going for it. It's improved speed tier is also amazing for taking on things like Kartana and Garchomp, and speed tying with Mega Metagross doesn't hurt for emergencies either. SD makes it extremely powerful as well. An underrated threat right now in my opinion.

C -> C+ (assuming the rank sticks around)

Daunt is extremely dangerous right now. The majority of Pokemon just aren't equipped to take its STAB combo, and those that do really don't want to eat a Knock Off. Chances are your favorite defensive core starts to sweat bullets the moment this thing shows up. Even Phys Def Tangrowth has a chance to be 2HKOd by Band Crunch if hazards are up. Aqua Jet can give it some opportunities to at least do something against offensive squads too.

C -> UR

Infinitely walling non-Toxic Zygarde and Mega Lopunny is pretty funny but almost everything else that's actually a threat right now can hit this Super Effectively, and those two can be taken care of by an overall more useful Pokemon.

 

[KirbCena]

-> B/B-

What does this check that Slowbro already checks but better, aside from the rare and obscure Mega Pinsir? It also has no reliable recovery whatsoever, with Pain Split only being significant against like Chansey, and its bulk is no longer decent, easily being whittled down to Darm-G, Vish, Ash Greninja, and immediately dies to Zygarde, things that a bulky water should at least be able to check one or two of in the meta. Nasty Plot is just outdone by its microwave cousin, since you'd have to include Volt Switch, Hydro, AND HP Fire to remotely threaten Balance and WG cores, leaving no room for utility.

-> A-

This on the other hand is spectacular! Not only is this a great fit for Voltturn, it also resists both moves, unlike Washtom, meaning it's harder to wear down. This combined with the fact that its Nasty Plot set is usually able to afford to run Pain Split or even Defog at times means it's an amazing role compressor with decent longevity.

-> A-/A

This does a really great job as a wallbreaker right now. Nasty Plot, in tandem with Roost and its decent coverage means Hydreigon is a durable breaker with decent bulk that can put in work against any playstyle, even more offensive teams thanks to its rather decent speed. One common misconception I've seen though is that this can't beat defensive cores with Tapu Fini, which is surprisingly not true with support, as the most common set in Groundium Z not only hits Fini hard at +2, it actually threatens an OHKO after a bit of prior damage(namely after switching into hazards twice). Steelium is also a great lure for other Fairy-type switch-ins, guaranteeing the OHKO on Unaware Clefable after Stealth Rock if Timid, which let's this better threaten stall as well.

->A
Another decent rocker in the meta besides Heatran, being able to threaten Torn-T and Fini with Stone Edge, while Corviknight won't risk the possibility of Fire Punch and the slightly possible 2HKO from Edge after Rocks, if not running Leftovers or they've been removed and if we're talking the standard Impish set of 248HP/204Def/56Spd. It also provides Balance with a great Heatran switchin and abuser, who otherwise breaks those teams apart.

-> C+/B-

This is honestly ranked too low for all the positive attributes it brings to a team. Hell, it could give Tapu Fini a run for its money. It has amazing utility in Defog, Haze, Scald, and Toxic, and is by far the best water-type check to both Heatran and Volcarona, with its high Special bulk letting it repeatedly absorb and Roost of their attacks, while its amazing typing grants it a neutrality to Bloom Doom and Shattered Psyche, meaning even Volc and Tran's lure sets can't beat it. Heavy Duty Boots is yet another boon for it, allowing it to no longer take massive SR damage and therefore more comfortably sacrifice some of its naturally high special bulk in order to somewhat improve its mediocre physical bulk.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

B -> B+

I think Victini underrated. Its Scarf set with both Trick and Final Gambit is really good at abusing those teams that rely on Slowbro to take on physical threats like Zygarde and Darm-G. Band is also decent, especially on those Sun teams that are sometimes used.

A -> A- / B+

I think Dragapult is not that great atm. I think Specs and Electrium Z are decent sets, but a lot of the time they lack the necessary power to achieve KOs. With Mega Tyranitar on the rise its become much more pressured to U-turn against a lot of teams.

B+ -> B

I have a hard time Justifying this thing over the other grounds. Zygarde, Garchomp, and Landorus-T are all better balance breakers thanks to their greater power. Gliscor is just too weak to deal with Tangrowth and Slowbro to be a real threat right now. Defog sets might be decent as they do check Setup Zygarde with Ice Fang which is something Corviknight is unable to do. But with Clefable being a option I hardly every find a need for it.

B -> C

Honestly I would unranked this thing entirely but I guess it still a fringe Ash-Gren check and Heatran partner. Anyway, Tapu Bulu is a really bad right now because its defensive niche is very hard to justify because Tangrowth can do most of what Bulu does in the checking department why also being able to deal with Mega Metagross. As a wallbreaker its outclassed because its often prediction reliant and other Wallbreakers like Kartana have better Speed and breaking power.

 

[astralydia]

B+ -> A+

Most people have noted that Rotom-H is an excellent mon in the current metagame. However, I believe that it can go further than that: I believe that A+ is a fair ranking for Rotom-H right now, as its role compression with being able to handle threats like Magearna, Galarian Darmanitan, Gliscor and Zen-less Mega Metagross are excellent aspects to have already, but this is amplified with its capability to run Z moves. Whilst Heavy-Duty Boots variants do well as offensive role compressors and is arguably easier to fit on offense, as the resistance to Galarian Darmanitan and the ability to wear down or outright beat Dragons like Hydreigon and Zygarde is a boon for these teams, the matchup against stall and balance teams with Firium Z Rotom-H is highly improved. Rotom-H with Firium Z is also incredibly tough to properly resist - standard resists to it like Gastrodon and Seismitoad are absolutely blasted away with a +4 Inferno Overdrive after a Pain Split, making them not only shaky answers to Rotom-Heat but also allow Rotom-Heat to abuse what it checks even more. It doesn't necessarily struggle with Dragons hard either, as against Hydreigon and Zygarde they are either taking heavy damage from +2 Inferno Overdrive / being OHKOd, or Rotom-H will tank the hits that Hydreigon can use against it. All of these small things add up to make Rotom-Heat one of the best Pokemon in the metagame: not unresistable, due to the rising usage of Mega Tyranitar, but a threat to constantly watch out for.

A -> A+

Prior to using Mega Lopunny I was very skeptical about its placement - it wasn't actually all that powerful, and continued to have problems with common walls such as Helmet Tangrowth, Slowbro and Toxapex. But in seeing that, the minor buff that Mega Lopunny got this generation in ignoring Intimidate has opened up its fourth moveslot greatly, giving it a lot more opportunities to run double priority sets that can act as excellent speed control for balance teams, as well as highly limit the chances that strong wallbreakers like Mega Blastoise can sweep teams, and utilize other breaking options such as Power-Up Punch, Encore, Toxic and Thunder Wave to its advantage to get the checks to it into range due to its lack of boosting otherwise.

UR -> C
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 112 HP / 220 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Facade

On another note, I have been finding some mild success with Conkeldurr on dedicated Hyper Offense teams as its matchup against Mega Lopunny and the general capability to OHKO a large portion of the metagame with Close Combat + Mach Punch can make it a balance breaker that is worth running occasionally. Even outside of its STABs, it is still tough to wall as Knock Off and Facade will 2HKO practically every resist to it other than Mega Sableye, which isn't very common as it is, and its decent physical bulk allows it to tank a few miscellaneous hits such as Mega Lopunny's High Jump Kick and Scalds from Slowbro and Toxapex.

Replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1071426955

 

[ImagineWagins]

Celesteela is vastly underrated. Steela has a very high defense hp and special defense stat which allows it to eat super effective moves from powerful attackers like magnazone and heatran. With flamethrower it is able to OHKO Ferrothorn that thinks it is safe and flash cannon can destroy clefairy. It has trouble recovering so it should not be placed above A teir. Another great usage of steela is against sand teams because she is able to was. Tyranitar and excadrill while dishing out super effective hit with flash cannon flamethrower or gigs drain. Celesteela can also 2 hit KO corviknight with flamethrower and is not threatened by it at all. steela has giga drain which can OHKO swampert or severely damage it while still being able to live a rain boosted liquidation. People don’t realize how annoying and tanky steela can be which makes her very underrated

 

[Mr.Lizard]

-------> S/natdex ag

Seriously, this is by far the most threatening mon out there and it easly sweaps entire teams if sent in a safe turn to shell smash, once it does it's almost unstoppable, able to 2 hit ko full spDef/Hp mantine with dark pulse, 3 hit ko Chansey, 2 hit ko gastrodon, able to barely survive a thunder punch by Mega Metagross and in turn 2 if Metagross isn't carrying bullet punch you are already swept, a mon with 8XX spA and 5XX Spe at turn 2 with a 120 power dark and fighting type move sounds as strong as it is. Only mon that can kill it even after a Shell smash at full health to my knowledge is a scarfed tapu koko.
Im so tired of seeing people get carried by this thing and no other mon is this hard to stop, even genesect was easier to deal with than this thing.

 

[Delibird Heart]

UR -> C
Kecleon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Drain Punch / Rock Slide

Despite being tiered as PU/ZU last generation, I feel Kecleon has a decent niche in OU this gen, due to the major rise of offensive teams, and the introduction of Shell Smash MBlastoise.

Due to its excellent ability protean, Kecleon is able to capitalize on its rather mediocre 90 base attack to dish out decently powerful priority hits while constantly changing types, potentially outplaying the opposing pokemons and completely nullifying certain major threats when played correctly, such as the aforementioned MBlastoise, even when it's already at +2.

Because of its humongous base special defense of 120, reaching 414 (with no spdef investment) when donning the Assault Vest, Kecleon can comfortably come in on any of MBlastoise's attacks bar Aura Sphere, and proceed to eliminate it with ease, by first using Fake Out, then using Shadow Sneak to nullify the incoming Aura Sphere, and then killing with Sucker Punch (or resisting the incoming Dark Pulse, and killing with a second sucker). While this is the ideal scenario, it is just an example, and there are other ways to outplay MBlastoise should it use its moves in a different pattern; besides, since people are likely not gonna be familiar with your set, chances are they'll play exactly like described above.

These caracteristics make Kelceon able to check or counter a wide array of special attackers, especially the most offensive ones such as Specs Greninja, Volcarona and Zard-Y (if using Rock Slide over Drain Punch), Shell Smash Polteagheist, Mega-Alakazam, Z-Celebrate Victini, Blacephalon, Dragapult, Latios & Latias (offensive sets), etc...

Drain Punch provides some semi-reliable recovery, thus improving Kecleon's lifespan, and allows it to threaten some bulkier special mons such as Heatran, Magnezone, Hydreigon, Kyurem, or Z-Conversion Porygon-Z (almost always winning the 1v1 vs the latter even if you come in after it's already boosted, or majorly chipping it thus preventing a sweep)

But Kecleon's usefulness is not limited to checking such threats; Because of it's protean boosted priority hits, it excels at checking frail offensive mons in general and getting guaranteed chip on the biggest threats to your team. For example, Fake Out + Sucker Punch always kills MBeedrill :

252+ Atk Kecleon Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beedrill-Mega: 114-135 (42 - 49.8%)
252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beedrill-Mega: 199-235 (73.4 - 86.7%)

The type changing capabilities of Kecleon is perhaps what distinguishes it most from other AV users. Because of Protean, Kecleon is able to check mons it would normally never stand a chance against, such as Mega Medicham or Weavile (those are just examples, but there are others) :

252+ Atk Kecleon Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 64-76 (24.5 - 29.1%)
252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 128-152 (49 - 58.2%)
Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. (Ghost) Kecleon: 0-0 (50% crash damage)

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 79-94 (28.1 - 33.4%)
252+ Atk Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 69-82 (24.5 - 29.1%)
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (Dark) Kecleon: 150-177 (46.2 - 54.6%)
252+ Atk Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 69-82 (24.5 - 29.1%)
(you can use Drain Punch on the last attack instead of a second Sucker Punch, because Ice Shard will not KO in case Weavile wants to prevent you from using sucker a second time)

To further demonstrate Kecleon's abilities, I've gathered a few replays (yes they were taken at low elo but the account I use this team with has since reached 1500 elo and still rising, despite my own unexperience playing and building Bulky Offense teams. I originally started this just as a fun idea, but since realised Kecleon was actually fully deserving of a spot on the VR. If further proof is needed, I can provide more replays in the future) :

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1072845409
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1072851478
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1072855565
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1073984801
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1074705844

This concludes why I think Kecleon deserves to be ranked on this VR. Please try to give this a serious thought and don't immediately discard it because of how unusual Kecleon normally is in OU. If you've reached this point, thanks for reading until the end and have a nice day/afternoon/evening :)

EDIT :
Here's a new replay, this time at a fairly decent elo (~1580 elo) that shows Kecleon dealing with Shift Gearna (this is also part of the reason why i like drain punch over rock slide), and the general matchup against HO :

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1074869930

Here's yet another one, at an even higher elo (though still not extremely high, ~1650) where Kecleon REALLY gets to shine. I feel out of all the replays I have in this post, this one shows best what Kecleon can do :

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1074879553-twlbrj1fotihomt7x1u8t39x8l4v7ktpw

 

[TURBODERP]

View attachment 226384 UR -> C
Kecleon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Drain Punch / Rock Slide

Despite being tiered as PU/ZU last generation, I feel Kecleon has a decent niche in OU this gen, due to the major rise of offensive teams, and the introduction of Shell Smash MBlastoise.

Due to its excellent ability protean, Kecleon is able to capitalize on its rather mediocre 90 base attack to dish out decently powerful priority hits while constantly changing types, potentially outplaying the opposing pokemons and completely nullifying certain major threats when played correctly, such as the aforementioned MBlastoise, even when it's already at +2.

Because of its humongous base special defense of 120, reaching 414 (with no spdef investment) when donning the Assault Vest, Kecleon can comfortably come in on any of MBlastoise's attacks bar Aura Sphere, and proceed to eliminate it with ease, by first using Fake Out, then using Shadow Sneak to nullify the incoming Aura Sphere, and then killing with Sucker Punch (or resisting the incoming Dark Pulse, and killing with a second sucker). While this is the ideal scenario, it is just an example, and there are other ways to outplay MBlastoise should it use its moves in a different pattern; besides, since people are likely not gonna be familiar with your set, chances are they'll play exactly like described above.

These caracteristics make Kelceon able to check or counter a wide array of special attackers, especially the most offensive ones such as Specs Greninja, Volcarona and Zard-Y (if using Rock Slide over Drain Punch), Shell Smash Polteagheist, Mega-Alakazam, Z-Celebrate Victini, Blacephalon, Dragapult, Latios & Latias (offensive sets), etc...

Drain Punch provides some semi-reliable recovery, thus improving Kecleon's lifespan, and allows it to threaten some bulkier special mons such as Heatran, Magnezone, Hydreigon, Kyurem, or Z-Conversion Porygon-Z (almost always winning the 1v1 vs the latter even if you come in after it's already boosted, or majorly chipping it thus preventing a sweep)

But Kecleon's usefulness is not limited to checking such threats; Because of it's protean boosted priority hits, it excels at checking frail offensive mons in general and getting guaranteed chip on the biggest threats to your team. For example, Fake Out + Sucker Punch always kills MBeedrill :

252+ Atk Kecleon Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beedrill-Mega: 114-135 (42 - 49.8%)
252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beedrill-Mega: 199-235 (73.4 - 86.7%)

The type changing capabilities of Kecleon is perhaps what distinguishes it most from other AV users. Because of Protean, Kecleon is able to check mons it would normally never stand a chance against, such as Mega Medicham or Weavile (those are just examples, but there are others) :

252+ Atk Kecleon Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 64-76 (24.5 - 29.1%)
252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 128-152 (49 - 58.2%)
Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. (Ghost) Kecleon: 0-0 (50% crash damage)

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 79-94 (28.1 - 33.4%)
252+ Atk Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 69-82 (24.5 - 29.1%)
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (Dark) Kecleon: 150-177 (46.2 - 54.6%)
252+ Atk Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 69-82 (24.5 - 29.1%)
(you can use Drain Punch on the last attack instead of a second Sucker Punch, because Ice Shard will not KO in case Weavile wants to prevent you from using sucker a second time)

To further demonstrate Kecleon's abilities, I've gathered a few replays (yes they were taken at low elo but the account I use this team with has since reached 1500 elo and still rising, despite my own unexperience playing and building Bulky Offense teams. I originally started this just as a fun idea, but since realised Kecleon was actually fully deserving of a spot on the VR. If further proof is needed, I can provide more replays in the future) :

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1072845409
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1072851478
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1072855565
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1073984801

This concludes why I think Kecleon deserves to be ranked on this VR. Please try to give this a serious thought and don't immediately discard it because of how unusual Kecleon normally is in OU. If you've reached this point, thanks for reading until the end and have a nice day/afternoon/evening :)

No clue if Kecleon deserves to be ranked, but kudos for finding a niche for it and using it accordingly, that's always fun to see.

 

[Delibird Heart]

So, I know I could just edit this into the original nomination post, but I feel this replay really shows what Kecleon can do in this meta, and I wanted to make sure people watched it before making their opinion on Kecleon. This is a mid-high elo match (~1650) where Kecleon really shines vs a rain offense and gets multiple KOs/Chip damage on threats :

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1074879553-twlbrj1fotihomt7x1u8t39x8l4v7ktpw

 

[theotherguytm]

So, I know I could just edit this into the original nomination post, but I feel this replay really shows what Kecleon can do in this meta, and I wanted to make sure people watched it before making their opinion on Kecleon. This is a mid-high elo match (~1650) where Kecleon really shines vs a rain offense and gets multiple KOs/Chip damage on threats :

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1074879553-twlbrj1fotihomt7x1u8t39x8l4v7ktpw

This replay shows Kecleon with pretty much perfect prediction. With anything less than perfect prediction, it becomes significantly less useful. Also, you had won that game the moment you got the burn on Swampert, the rest was a formality TBH and you didn't need Kecleon in particular there (in other words, something like Bisharp would have done a very similar job if not better). Plus your opponent is pretty bad leaving water mons in on Freeze Dry and using Barraskewda, who is garbage. If anything, this replay shows how much pressure Toad's prevalence puts on Rain, with the Rain player not being free to use Rain Boosted moves once.

I'm glad you got to use Kecleon and found success with it, but it doesn't justify a place in any serious team.

 

[てんし]

why isn't dragonite ranked? isn't hdb + multiscale a good combo?

 

[Jho]

VR Slate 2 / March 11th 2020
Yo the VR council has voted on the current slate which can be found here. Side note, with Power stepping down, faded love will be joining us on the VR council, congrats! Without further ado, here are the changes, we decided to combine the C ranks once again due to how little there was between the ranks which made the subranks arbitrary.

Rises
A to A+
A to A+
A to A+
A to A+
A- to A+
B+ to A+
A- to A
A- to A
B+ to A-
B+ to A-
UR to C

Drops
A+ to A-
A+ to A
A to A-
A- to B+
B+ to B-
B to C
C to UR
C to UR

Notable changes:
to A+
Rotom-H is rising a whole rank this slate due to how much its usage has spiked and how amazingly it faires in the current metagame where teams rely on Bulky Water-type + Tangrowth as their defensive cores. Whilst it was originally picked up for teams as a check to Genesect, it still functions amazingly without it in the metagame, being able to pressure many of the most common Pokemon in the meta such as Mega Metagross, Zygarde, Tornadus-T, the aforementioned Tangrowth etc.

to A+
Tapu Fini is becoming more and more common and important in the meta as the single best answer to Mega Blastoise (which itself has become more popular), whilst also checking other Pokemon which have seen a rise in use, such as Hydreigon. Misty Terrain support is also invaluable for common Tapu Fini teammates such as Zygarde, Mega Metagross, and Tangrowth. This allows Zygarde and Metagross to come in freely on Pokemon such as Heatran and Toxapex respectively while allowing Tangrowth to avoid being Toxiced, which is typically the best way for common builds to deal with it. Tapu Fini also benefits from being one of the best removal options in the metagame due to the general lack of them, giving it incredible role compression on top of everything else it offers.

to A-
Landorus-T struggles in the current metagame due to its set diversity being greatly inhibited by the abundance of Tangrowth, meaning that Flyinium-Z is far and away its best set Landorus-T also struggles greatly due to the growing popularity of Choice Scarf Darmanitan-G post-Genesect's ban, which both competes with Landorus-T's Scarf set, and abuses its other sets. These conditions coagulate into an environment that is not great for Landorus-T, although its Flyinium-Z set can still be effective against the common balance builds, hence its placement in A-.

 

[Cuddly]

B -> A-
I have been hearing news about the popularity of Tangrowth+Bulky Water cores, and Kyurem is really good at doing just that, thanks to Freeze-Dry and resisting Grass/Water.
While Rotom-Heat has the advantage of a better type, a more useful ability, and Nasty Plot, Kyurem can check most of the things Rotom-H checks with just 2 moves, and has better stats at that.
It also doesn’t need to have HP Grass to deal with Water/Ground types.

A+ -> A-
Ferrothorn faces some pretty tough competition as a bulky Grass type with Tangrowth around.
Ferrothorn since Gen 5 has been the GOAT Hazard setter, and arguably still is. However, with the introduction to Heavy Duty-Boots, hazards are much easier to handle.
While it still encourages the opponent to run HDB instead of an item like Life Orb, Leftovers, or Z-Crystal, that isn’t nearly as great as forcing the opponent to run a Defogger/Magic Bouncer, and put them into unfavorable positions. No longer can you set up Stealth Rock against a team with Volcarona, and while they are trying to remove those Rocks, they are frantically Defogging them away, and you can rake up a ton of damage with Hazard Chip+Switching+Strong attacks.
That isn’t to say Hazards are completely useless. Like I stated before, Volcorona is sacrificing a Z-crystal/Lum/Life Orb to hold some Timbs, Megas can’t hold Timbs, and the Chip Damage is still great on Pokemon with regular Nikes.
Also, some other things Tangrowth has are:
-Regenerator
-Synthesis
-Sleep Power
-Resistance to Thousand Arrows (aka the best move in OU)
-Better physical bulk
-Stronger Power Whip
-A much stronger SpA for Hidden Power
-Doesn’t instantly die to HP fire
-No weakness to Fighting
Ferrothorn is still good, and has things that set it apart from Tangrowth, such as a better SpD, more resistances, Gyro Ball, and is better at Chip Damage with Hazards+Leech Seed+Iron Barbs.
But as it stands, Ferrothorn being A+ is way to generous.

 

[astralydia]

View attachment 227384 B -> A-
I have been hearing news about the popularity of Tangrowth+Bulky Water cores, and Kyurem is really good at doing just that, thanks to Freeze-Dry and resisting Grass/Water.
While Rotom-Heat has the advantage of a better type, a more useful ability, and Nasty Plot, Kyurem can check most of the things Rotom-H checks with just 2 moves, and has better stats at that.
It also doesn’t need to have HP Grass to deal with Water/Ground types.
View attachment 227386 A+ -> A-
Ferrothorn faces some pretty tough competition as a bulky Grass type with Tangrowth around.
Ferrothorn since Gen 5 has been the GOAT Hazard setter, and arguably still is. However, with the introduction to Heavy Duty-Boots, hazards are much easier to handle.
While it still encourages the opponent to run HDB instead of an item like Life Orb, Leftovers, or Z-Crystal, that isn’t nearly as great as forcing the opponent to run a Defogger/Magic Bouncer, and put them into unfavorable positions. No longer can you set up Stealth Rock against a team with Volcarona, and while they are trying to remove those Rocks, they are frantically Defogging them away, and you can rake up a ton of damage with Hazard Chip+Switching+Strong attacks.
That isn’t to say Hazards are completely useless. Like I stated before, Volcorona is sacrificing a Z-crystal/Lum/Life Orb to hold some Timbs, Megas can’t hold Timbs, and the Chip Damage is still great on Pokemon with regular Nikes.
Also, some other things Tangrowth has are:
-Regenerator
-Synthesis
-Sleep Power
-Resistance to Thousand Arrows (aka the best move in OU)
-Better physical bulk
-Stronger Power Whip
-A much stronger SpA for Hidden Power
-Doesn’t instantly die to HP fire
-No weakness to Fighting
Ferrothorn is still good, and has things that set it apart from Tangrowth, such as a better SpD, more resistances, Gyro Ball, and is better at Chip Damage with Hazards+Leech Seed+Iron Barbs.
But as it stands, Ferrothorn being A+ is way to generous.

I got a lot of problems with these two nominations. First off, Rotom-Heat does a lot of different roles compared to Kyurem, they aren't really comparable. The Water/Ground point is also moot: both are uncommon and can easily lose to Rotom-H if it has Pain Split, which some variants opt for over HP Ice. Kyurem also has difficulty resisting hazards - even with Heavy-Duty Boots, a lot of the Pokemon it comes in on are capable of knocking the Boots off, which can cause serious issues for it in longer games where Kyurem is supposed to be powerful. Kyurem also suffers from the prominence of Rotom-H ironically - most teams having a resist to both Ice and Ground severely hampers SubRoost sets which can negate the issues Kyurem would usually have. Specs also suffers from a highly prediction reliant nature and general competition from Choice Band Galarian Darmanitan, which whilst less bulky is generally capable of 2HKOing every Pokemon on a given team even just using Icicle Crash - Ice resists are absolutely mandatory for it right now and that continues to dig into Kyurem's viability as an alternative. So I think Kyurem should stay where it is, it's a niche wallbreaker that has some utility to differentiate it from Galarian Darmanitan but it either suffers from a highly prediction reliant nature or cannot deal effectively with some common Pokemon.

On Ferrothorn:

Whilst some Defoggers have adapted for it, most notably Tornadus-Therian starting to run Heat Wave more, Ferrothorn has a particular move which negates any sort of anti-hazard pressure that a team can inflict on it without Tornadus: Knock Off. Knock Off allows it to basically circumvent all of these problems that have been put down, and whilst it isn't similar to Tangrowth, as that works better as a physical tank which can resist Zygarde and Mega Lopunny, Ferrothorn is still pretty good at punishing both of these targets. Other than that, being a check to Mega Metagross and Mega Blastoise in one slot is absolutely incredible role compression for a single Pokemon which can also set the coveted Spikes, and thus I would not be hesitant to say that Ferrothorn should absolutely keep its A+ ranking.

I'd also like to tack on a few nominations that I felt should have happened last update:

A+ -> A

Aegislash just hasn't really been cutting it out for me as a Steel type. In a metagame where Darks and Ghosts are actually viable, the SubToxic set suffers a good bit against actually managing to switch in and do its thing. Most Pokemon in the metagame are strong enough to at least 3HKO it, or give it a punish that will heavily cripple it, such as Knock Off. The common usage of Tapu Fini also means that a lot of teams are decently protected against status, so this only really leaves Aegislash's defensive utilities left as a way of carving a niche. Whilst these are still good, they don't really suit the metagame all that well, apart from limiting Mega Metagross's coverage. Aegislash's Z move sets also suffer greatly from the increased usage of Mega Tyranitar as well as continued dominance from Zygarde, which severely hampers its effectiveness as an overall wallbreaker when it takes so long to break or its Pursuit vulnerability gets the most of it. It also has to contend with Scarf Hydreigon becoming more popular as a Choice Scarfer, as it is capable of resisting boosted Shadow Sneaks quite easily. It doesn't really feel as splashable or as effective as any mon that currently resides in A+.

A+ -> A

Toxapex doesn't really cut it out as a defensive water in the current metagame. Whilst it is still excellent at checking specific threats in the metagame and is still an extremely solid Toxic Spikes setter, it tends to struggle with competition from Slowbro as a bulky water on balance teams due to the omnipresence of Zygarde and Mega Metagross, and Slowbro's other new attributes, such as access to Teleport generally make it a better pick momentum wise. It is also hampered by the drop of usage of threats such as Greninja, and increase in usage of Mega Alakazam and Hydreigon, which tend to break the more balance oriented builds that Toxapex can fit on well. This one I feel less strongly about than Aegislash, however, but I don't feel like its presence is as strong as every other Pokemon in A+ and fits better with Corviknight.

 

[Cuddly]

I got a lot of problems with these two nominations. First off, Rotom-Heat does a lot of different roles compared to Kyurem, they aren't really comparable. The Water/Ground point is also moot: both are uncommon and can easily lose to Rotom-H if it has Pain Split, which some variants opt for over HP Ice. Kyurem also has difficulty resisting hazards - even with Heavy-Duty Boots, a lot of the Pokemon it comes in on are capable of knocking the Boots off, which can cause serious issues for it in longer games where Kyurem is supposed to be powerful. Kyurem also suffers from the prominence of Rotom-H ironically - most teams having a resist to both Ice and Ground severely hampers SubRoost sets which can negate the issues Kyurem would usually have. Specs also suffers from a highly prediction reliant nature and general competition from Choice Band Galarian Darmanitan, which whilst less bulky is generally capable of 2HKOing every Pokemon on a given team even just using Icicle Crash - Ice resists are absolutely mandatory for it right now and that continues to dig into Kyurem's viability as an alternative. So I think Kyurem should stay where it is, it's a niche wallbreaker that has some utility to differentiate it from Galarian Darmanitan but it either suffers from a highly prediction reliant nature or cannot deal effectively with some common Pokemon.

On Ferrothorn:

Whilst some Defoggers have adapted for it, most notably Tornadus-Therian starting to run Heat Wave more, Ferrothorn has a particular move which negates any sort of anti-hazard pressure that a team can inflict on it without Tornadus: Knock Off. Knock Off allows it to basically circumvent all of these problems that have been put down, and whilst it isn't similar to Tangrowth, as that works better as a physical tank which can resist Zygarde and Mega Lopunny, Ferrothorn is still pretty good at punishing both of these targets. Other than that, being a check to Mega Metagross and Mega Blastoise in one slot is absolutely incredible role compression for a single Pokemon which can also set the coveted Spikes, and thus I would not be hesitant to say that Ferrothorn should absolutely keep its A+ ranking.

Yeah, I understand that Rotom-Heat has more roles than taking down the new popular defensive core, but so can Kyurem, which is the point.
But I disagree with Kyurem struggling against Rotom-H. Having the ability Pressure, higher Speed, a resistance and neutrality to Rotom-H’s STABs, and great bulk means Rotom-H can easily run out of PP. And Rotom-H’s only recovery option is Pain-Split, which isn’t too reliable, and Kyurem can pick off a weakened Rotom-H with Freeze-Dry. And on the flip side, Rotom-H needs Scarf or Sticky Webs to kill a weakened Kyurem, since it can just Roost. And obviously, Specs Kyurem will just KO Rotom-H with Draco Meteor if it isn’t running something like Max SpD.
And plus, Rotom-H is still A+ and I was suggesting Kyurem getting a boost too since the reasonings would be similar, not that Kyurem would take up Rotom-H’s place.

Also, about Ferrothorn.
Yeah, you can use Knock Off to remove HDBs, even with a Teammate, but that’s also you being forced to do so. Kind of similar to Volcarona teams being forced to use Defog back in Gen 7 when Hazards are up, your opponent can use that turn you used using Knock Off to their advantage.
No, this doesn’t mean that Hazards, Knock Off, or Defog are just useless options. Hazards and Defog are just weaker options as a whole, and Knock Off is slightly less of a luxury and slightly more of a necessity.
It’s why Mew, who did nearly everything Deo-D could, and more, wasn’t banned this Gen.
And speaking of Mew, Ferrothorn also faces competition as a Hazard Setter with Mew, the least linear Pokemon.
Mew with just setting up Hazards has far more possibilities.
Again, this isn’t to say X Pokemon is completely useless because Y or Z exist. Ferrothorn in this case still has things going for it, like Gyro Ball, Toxic/Poison Immunity, Neutralities/Resistances Mew/Tangrowth don’t have, etc.
It’s just that Ferro’s strongest point isn’t as effective as it was in Gen 5, 6, and Sun/Moon, it faces harsher competition for its main (Hazard setter) and secondary (Bulky grass pivot) jobs, and the lack of reliable recovery is showing its age in an era where Pokemon are getting ridiculous movepools.

 

[astralydia]

Yeah, I understand that Rotom-Heat has more roles than taking down the new popular defensive core, but so can Kyurem, which is the point.
But I disagree with Kyurem struggling against Rotom-H. Having the ability Pressure, higher Speed, a resistance and neutrality to Rotom-H’s STABs, and great bulk means Rotom-H can easily run out of PP. And Rotom-H’s only recovery option is Pain-Split, which isn’t too reliable, and Kyurem can pick off a weakened Rotom-H with Freeze-Dry. And on the flip side, Rotom-H needs Scarf or Sticky Webs to kill a weakened Kyurem, since it can just Roost. And obviously, Specs Kyurem will just KO Rotom-H with Draco Meteor if it isn’t running something like Max SpD.
And plus, Rotom-H is still A+ and I was suggesting Kyurem getting a boost too since the reasonings would be similar, not that Kyurem would take up Rotom-H’s place.

Also, about Ferrothorn.
Yeah, you can use Knock Off to remove HDBs, even with a Teammate, but that’s also you being forced to do so. Kind of similar to Volcarona teams being forced to use Defog back in Gen 7 when Hazards are up, your opponent can use that turn you used using Knock Off to their advantage.
No, this doesn’t mean that Hazards, Knock Off, or Defog are just useless options. Hazards and Defog are just weaker options as a whole, and Knock Off is slightly less of a luxury and slightly more of a necessity.
It’s why Mew, who did nearly everything Deo-D could, and more, wasn’t banned this Gen.
And speaking of Mew, Ferrothorn also faces competition as a Hazard Setter with Mew, the least linear Pokemon.
Mew with just setting up Hazards has far more possibilities.
Again, this isn’t to say X Pokemon is completely useless because Y or Z exist. Ferrothorn in this case still has things going for it, like Gyro Ball, Toxic/Poison Immunity, Neutralities/Resistances Mew/Tangrowth don’t have, etc.
It’s just that Ferro’s strongest point isn’t as effective as it was in Gen 5, 6, and Sun/Moon, it faces harsher competition for its main (Hazard setter) and secondary (Bulky grass pivot) jobs, and the lack of reliable recovery is showing its age in an era where Pokemon are getting ridiculous movepools.

You seem to be talking about Kyurem as if it is capable of both using SubRoost and Choice Specs movesets at once - last I checked, it can't actually do that. Rotom-H actually beats Kyurem regardless - a +2 Discharge can break Kyurem's Sub, and +6 will be able to outdamage Roost, which gives you the chance to just paralyze it. And of course, if you're chad Firium Z you just win by clicking Z at +2.

With the Ferrothorn arguments, they're still extremely arbitrary arguments that don't really suggest a decline in viability for Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has all the more reason to use Knock Off this generation - the heavy usage of Ghosts, Heavy-Duty Boots, in general most checks to Ferrothorn dislike their item being lost. Mew is also exclusively a Hyper Offense lead, believe me I tried defensive Mew and it sucked so hard I just wished that I'd got Ferrothorn and another Zygarde resist like Clefable. To say that Tangrowth does its job better is completely wrong - they only overlap by typing. So my point still stands, Ferrothorn should stay A+.

 

[Cuddly]

You seem to be talking about Kyurem as if it is capable of both using SubRoost and Choice Specs movesets at once - last I checked, it can't actually do that. Rotom-H actually beats Kyurem regardless - a +2 Discharge can break Kyurem's Sub, and +6 will be able to outdamage Roost, which gives you the chance to just paralyze it. And of course, if you're chad Firium Z you just win by clicking Z at +2.

With the Ferrothorn arguments, they're still extremely arbitrary arguments that don't really suggest a decline in viability for Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has all the more reason to use Knock Off this generation - the heavy usage of Ghosts, Heavy-Duty Boots, in general most checks to Ferrothorn dislike their item being lost. Mew is also exclusively a Hyper Offense lead, believe me I tried defensive Mew and it sucked so hard I just wished that I'd got Ferrothorn and another Zygarde resist like Clefable. To say that Tangrowth does its job better is completely wrong - they only overlap by typing. So my point still stands, Ferrothorn should stay A+.

-“You seem to be talking about Kyurem as if it is capable of both using SubRoost and Choice Specs movesets at once”
I’m not at all. I said that both sets could beat Rotom-H. “And obviously, ->Specs Kyurem<- will just KO Rotom-H with Draco Meteor if it isn’t running something like Max SpD.”
-“Rotom-H actually beats Kyurem regardless - a +2 Discharge can break Kyurem's Sub, and +6 will be able to outdamage Roost, which gives you the chance to just paralyze it.”
That’s if Rotom-H is running Discharge, which is rare and after pressure has effectively 12 PP.
And yeah, at +6, Discharge will do a little more than half, but SubRoost Kyurem can use Metronome.
0
196 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 52-62 (17.1 - 20.4%) -- not a KO
1
196 SpA Metronome Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 62-74 (20.4 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
2
196 SpA Metronome Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 73-87 (24 - 28.7%) -- not a KO
3
196 SpA Metronome Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 83-99 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- not a KO
4
196 SpA Metronome Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 94-112 (31 - 36.9%) -- not a KO
If Kyurem is extremely unlucky, 5 consecutive Freeze-Dry knock out Rotom-Heat, and 4 will knock it out.
Sure, Kyurem isn’t going to be able to hit Rotom-H all 5 times, but don’t forget that Rotom-H’s only recovery is Pain Split, Leftovers, and Berries, so if Rotom keeps Nasty Plotting, it will take a lot of damage that it can’t reliably restore, while Kyurem can. And it can still run other items as well, just that Metronome speeds up the process without compromising survivability.
In the end, the match-up of SubRoost Kyurem and Rotom-H is heavily based around prediction, pre-existing conditions, and some RNG, but that prediction is more biased in Kyurem’s favor thanks to Pressure, Sub, Roost, and its Speed.
Or Kyurem could be running the Specs set instead of SubRoost, and dunk on Rotom-H completely with Draco Meteor.

-“Ferrothorn has all the more reason to use Knock Off this generation - the heavy usage of Ghosts, Heavy-Duty Boots, in general most checks to Ferrothorn dislike their item being lost.”
Again, I didn’t say “Knock Off is absolutely a shit move. -5/10 worse than constrict”.
Let’s say that you see a Volcarona on your opponent’s team.
In Gen 5/7, having Stealth Rock up, how ever you got them up, was all need to do for Volcarona to take half of its HP off for free.
This means;
A. Ferrothorn only needs to use 1 move to have an advantage against Volcarona, while Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, Knock Off, etc. would just be bonuses if you could pull it off.
B. This means that your opponent is going to build his team to make sure Rocks are not up, and will play in a way to prevent/remove them.
B2. You can use this to your advantage in many ways, such as harassing your opponent, setting up, or healing a Pokemon on its death bed.
Now in Gen 8, yes;
Knock Off still cripples switch-ins to Ferrothorn.
Knock Off hits Ghost types, especially Aegislash.
And Knock Off can remove HDBs.
However, with HDBs existing;
A. Setting up Stealth Rocks isn’t enough. Ferrothorn or one of its teammates has to remove those Boots if they want Volcarona to take damage from Stealth Rock
B. This means that your opponent will be considerate in the teambuilder with a Volcarona holding HDBs
C. When A is true, that means Ferrothorn has to waste at least 1 turn not setting up Hazards. And your opponent is now playing around you.
C2. Also, if the Volcarona has Flame Body, Ferrothorn has a pretty high chance of getting burned.
Do you get what I’m saying?
-“Mew is also exclusively a Hyper Offense lead, believe me I tried defensive Mew and it sucked so hard I just wished that I'd got Ferrothorn and another Zygarde resist like Clefable.”
A
g
a
i
n
Competition =/= outclassed
Never once did I imply that Mew is some Hazard God who Toxapex tells Ferrothorn not to worry about.
In fact, I said that Ferrothorn was still arguably the GOAT Hazard Setter.
Competition is competition, no matter how you slice it.
Ferrothorn is still the top of Hazard Setting, but between Gen 7 and Gen 8, the old Hazard Setters Ferrothorn competed are still present, in NatDex OU.
Skarmory is still here.
Smeargle is still here.
Shuckle is still here.
Landorus-T is still here
The Offensive Rockers and Spikers like Garchomp and Greninja are still here.
etc.
They are all here (viability may vary)
It’s just now that Mew has Spikes now, which makes it a pretty good Hazard Setter.

-“To say that Tangrowth does its job better is completely wrong - they only overlap by typing.”
As a physical grass type tank and as a Zygarde check, it does.
Regenerator healing Tangrowth and Tangrowth’s natural bulk offsets the small 5% Outrage does to it than TA does to Ferrothorn.
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 73-87 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 105-124 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Not to mention that Tangrowth can put Zygarde to sleep and 2HKOs with HP Ice.
I’m not saying that Tangrowth is a better Hazard Setter, for obvious reasons.
I’m also not saying Ferrothorn is completely useless as a defensive Grass type either, as I have stated, it has attributes that make it better in come scenarios than Tangrowth.
And I am also not saying that Ferrothorn can’t check the Pokemon Tangrowth also checks.

What I’m saying is, that as a whole, Ferrothorn is still a good Pokemon, but not A+ rank any more.

And don’t worry, it won’t be A- rank forever. Zygarde being on the Radar, then banned, would mean the meta will shift a bit, and Ferrothorn could be brought back up.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

I don't know why Ferrothorn is being compared to Tangrowth.

Yeah they're both Grass Type but they both fit on different types of teams. Ferrothorn spikes offensive teams are like the 2nd most common archetype in tours after FiniTang BO right now due to how well they can wear down common defensive threats like Tapu Fini for something like NP Hydreigon. I should also note that Ferrothorn pairs really well with Teleport Slowbro meaning that not being able to check Zygarde very well isn't that bad. You people really need to remember that Teammates exist and if this list counted mons on their own then Zygarde and Mega Metagross wouldn't be S tiers.

Anyway,

A- -> A

I'm actually surprised about the amount of set-variety this thing has. Scarf, NP, and even a defog set I saw the other day. Considering that I've been able to slap this onto a lot of my teams with success is making me believe this thing has the splashability of a A rank Pokemon.

B+ - A-

When I talk about Tapu Lele. I'm talking about the Scarf set. I've heard things about a Ghostium set but I've never seen it in action so I can't really speak on it. The Choice Scarf set however has always been really hard to deal with for the teams I generally use. Then I started using it and realized that its actually a really good Mega Blastoise partner as its terrain blocks priority from Zygarde and Mega Lopunny.

 

[KirbCena]

-> B-/C

Lucha misses the days when its best friends in Lele, Koko, and Bulu were great choices on Offense, as they easily provided it with the means to setup and sweep. Nowadays, it's inconsistent and requires more setup than it's bulk will let it, being all too reliant on SD+CC+White Herb just to activate Unburden in order to sweep. As such, both Bulky and Hyper Offense have completely forgotten Hawucha in favor of other sweepers like Dragapult and Volcarona who get the job done much more easily.

-> A+

This abuses and benefits a lot from current trends, namely the fact that more and more players are ditching Pex for Fini or Slowbro as a result of Pex being decimated by common mons that those two don't fear. These same mons also just so happen to support Volcarona greatly in removing defensive answers so it can sweep. Bulky QD variants are also a great alternative to Heattom as a Defensive Fire on the staple FiniTang BOs, as it also soft checks Darm-G, as well as terrors like Megagross, only instead of fulfilling the need for a breaker, it provides a resilient wincon.

-> A+

Spikes Offenses are really good right now, with many common breakers and sweepers like Lopunny, Hydreigon, and Blastoise benefiting immensely from their answers being worn down. While Ferrothorn is usually used due to its defensive utility, Gren has some notable differences that can make it more favorable. For instance, its access to a wide variety of coverage that it gets pseudo-STAB on due to Protean means it can be tailor-made for what your team needs handled in a more offensive manner. This coverage also allows it to beat common Defoggers(it can actually beat Fini, Torn-T AND Corviknight all in one moveset without relying on obscure coverage options) who thought they could otherwise stomach repeated hits to keep removing Spikes, especially if equipped with EB or LO.

-> B+/B

Offensive sets have been less and less common, as this just doesn't cut it as a sweeper rn, lacking the necessary power to KO stuff like Ferrothorn and Rotom-Heat as they wear it down with residual damage. AV and Heart Swap + Volt Switch sets are pretty obscure too, having horrible matchups against common stuff like Zygarde while a lot of what they check is either mostly unpopular like Lele and Ash-Gren, or already checked by something more useful like Fini like Mega Blastoise.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

After playing the Zygless meta for a bit (and appreciating the fact that we got the snek out), I have some noms.

to A-

Garchomp is pretty fire as a Stealth Rocker and Heatran switch-in. Both Rockium Z and Dragonium Z are viable items, but I prefer Dragonium because Corviknight can be used as setup fodder to an extent. This is also a solid switch-in to Oven, so thats nice.

(Latios) to A-

Latios also benefits from the popularity of Rotom-H and Heatran because it decks on them unless Oven Volts out. Its also capable of putting some chip on MMeta through Earthquake, and appreciates the rise of Steels and Toxapex due to Zygarde’s ban. While it is very annoyed by Corviknight, Ferrothorn and Slowbro, it makes great partners with these mons.

to B+

Okay this is the last Dragon I swear. Kommo-o’s a more defensive answer to Tran and Ash-Gren that can combine with something like Tangrowth or Ferrothorn to keep Mega Blastoise in check, while also setting Stealth Rock. Body Press + Toxic + Thunder Punch + Stealth Rock is what I’ve been using to really punish anything that switches in, as common checks like Fini/Bro/Pex/Torn might not see TPunch coming and be unable to Defog or be forced to Recover. Very solid mon that deserves a rse.

to B-/B

Imo this is better than Medicham right now but this definitely is not C material and you know it. It shares a Speed tier with Latios and Metagross and can handily beat them, so you can play somewhat recklessly. +2 Knock Off seriously pounds non-Mega Bro and Aegislash, who give Medicham issues. Its resistance to Fighting also lets it use traditional Corviknight as setup fodder, so thats cool as well.

to B-

Hot take: Daunt >> Vish. While Vish can remove things with one move, the tier is filled with resists and mons that can pivot in on its weaker moves because of its 90 Attack stat. Crawdaunt, on the other hand, makes sure it cripples anything it touches with a painful Knock Off, so all the damage really builds on mons like Fini, Ferro and Pex. SD sets are a bit harder to use but they can easily break open defensive cores because DarkZ breaks resists that easily. This mon is definitely worth rising.

to B-

People have been testing this with AV as a Mega Toise answer and its pretty cool especially since it can kill back with Grass Knot (Tang can not do this iirc and neither can Fini). Its even got HP Fire and Sludge Bomb to mitigate its passivity and Clear Smog to remove boosts in case it finds itself in that situation. It can be hard to fit on teams somewhat is my only issue, but that shouldn’t keep this mon in C.

 

[KirbCena]

to B-

People have been testing this with AV as a Mega Toise answer and its pretty cool especially since it can kill back with Grass Knot (Tang can not do this iirc and neither can Fini). Its even got HP Fire and Sludge Bomb to mitigate its passivity and Clear Smog to remove boosts in case it finds itself in that situation. It can be hard to fit on teams somewhat is my only issue, but that shouldn’t keep this mon in C.

Actually, Amoonguss can't OHKO back with Grass Knot at full after a Shell Smash, doing 98% at most(still very close though, especially when factoring in Stealth Rock), while AV Tang's Grass Knot guarantees an OHKO after a Smash. However, AV Amoonguss is still better overall as a Blastoise check thanks to its higher SpD and similar HP stats, meaning there's less pressure on the player to keep it super healthy. Not to mention Zygarde being banned means a Ground-resist isn't absolutely necessary either, making Amoong even better, along with the fact that it can annoy the popular FiniTang core by just clicking Sludge Bomb as well luring Heatran and possibly OHKOing it with Stomping Tantrum if its HP Fire or Sludge Bomb fails on the switch.

Anyways, to make this post a bit more contributive, I'll add a new nomination in addition to my previous post now that we're in a Zygless Meta:

-> A+

The banning of Zygarde means this can finally be a great Ground-immunity for Balance and Bulky Offense, being able to pivot into many dangerous breakers like Mega Metagross and the occasional Tapu Lele while still providing immense utility like Defog and U-turn. Several Corviknight cores have gotten better in general, namely Corviknight + Chansey, Corviknight + Rotom-Heat, etc.

 

[Zneon]

Got a few noms I want to hand out, sooo here we go!

-> B

Excadrill just is not that good right now. It struggles to find a niche other than being a pretty nice spinner, it has a very awkward speed stat that can be taken advantage of by stuff like Landorus-T and Garchomp, and really struggles to find a place on teams because of this. Corviknight does better at the hazard removal thing with its typing and mixed bulk which makes it much more splashable as a result, Sand as a playstyle is nonexistent right now so that doesn't work, and as a suicide lead it is outclassed by Mew in a lot of different areas. I don't really see the reason why Drill should be as high as stuff like Hydreigon and Lando-T which are clearly superior Pokemon, and I don't even think it's on par with stuff like Serp and Mega Mawile, so I think it should drop further to B.

-> A-

Garchomp has gotten quite better with Zygarde's ban, its a great offensive stealth rocker with Dragonium or Rockium as it can threaten almost all the Defoggers except for Corviknight, not to mention having a great speed tier, allowing it to naturally outspeed stuff like Lando-T and Volc while still being pretty bulky, a Pokemon as consistent at setting rocks while also being able to pressure and overwhelm common Pokemon all make Garchomp pretty great right now, thus it should rise a bit.

->A+

I think Corviknight is consistent and splashable enough to rise to A+, it is an amazing glue mon with its typing and brilliant utility moves in Taunt, U-turn and most importantly, Defog, Corviknight is just as good as Tornadus-T as a Defogger in my opinion because of its mixed bulk, allowing to pivot into stuff like Lando-T, Torn-T and Mega Metagross to name a few, it is gotten much better with Zygarde's ban as there is one less Pokemon to abuse it, overall Corviknight just has enough options and support for its teammates to make it an amazing addition on all kinds of Bulky or Balance teams.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Alright its been week since the Zygarde ban. Heres the things I think should rise.

A+ -> S

I know this is controversial but Tornadus-T is extremely splashable and a very easy fit on every team thats not a HO or Stall. The best thing about it is how well it can deal with every hazard by just changing what it runs. Offensive sets like the Z move ones like Fightinium and Firium beat setters like Ferrothorn, Mega Metagross, and Mega Tyranitar. Metronome and bulky pivot are also great with Metronome letting it overwhelm Ferrothorn and SpD Toxapex without too much effort, while bulky pivot gives a shit load of utility while checking dangerous offensive threats like Kartana and Serperior. I've even seen some niche AV and HP Ice + Charti Berry sets on the ladder. Overall Tornadus-T's incredible utility and splashability puts it above the rest of A+ for me.

A- -> A

With Zygarde out of the tier, Mega Scizor can now run SD > Curse now which makes its match up against offense teams way better. That and the fact that its the best Mega Metagross counter in the tier makes it one of the best picks on Balance teams at the moment.

B- -> B+

Gengar is one of the most effective Stallbreakers in the tier right now. NP / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Taunt or Substitute can pretty much auto-win against many stall teams. I should note it speed ties Mega Metagross so it can put it in uncomfortable 50/50s.

Things I think should drop.

A+ -> A

The Zygarde ban has slightly hurt Clefable because one of its biggest niches was it could counter Toxic variants without too much hassle. Still good but not really on the same level as Ferrothorn and Rotom-H.

B -> C

Dracovish dropping in usage hurts this things niche. The biggest problem I have with it is that its rare to want Gastrodon and Stealth Rocks because theres so many good Rockers at the moment.

C -> UR

Avalugg is really meh and it doesn't really check much that others do to begin with. Also Zygarde is gone so there goes that one niche it had.

C -> UR

There isn't really much of a reason to run this thing over the other offensive waters like Greninja and Mega Blastoise. It also hates how common Tapu Fini is.

C -> UR

Same as Keldeo but its even harder to use because Rain already has Mega Swampert and Ash Greninja to improve the offense match up.

C -> UR

We tried on Discord to get this thing to work but the fact that its a grass that struggles to deal with Mega Metagross and Corviknight is such a L. Lets put it out of its misery.

Alright thats enough from me.

 

[Cuddly]

A -> A+
Like most people have been saying, Corviknight should move up with Zygarde’s removal since now only Smeargle and Zygarde-10% can use TA.

&

UR -> B
Honestly, why aren’t these 2 ranked? Both are great Dragon Dance users and have attributes that set them apparent from other Dancers and themselves, even when Zygarde was still around. I made a huge post in the discussion form for NatDex OU about Dragonite here.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-ou-metagame-discussion.3656899/post-8409245
Salamence is pretty similar, but trades off temporary bulk, Espeed, and role variety for more speed and better power.
And it isn’t just theorymoning, I was using Dragonite along a pretty standard GFW core with Greninja and Magnezone, and the Extreme Speed+Earthquake combo is great and Multiscale was very handy for surviving that 1 hit I’d need to turn a game around.
Also, here is a good replay of Dragonite being very useful.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1088029076

S -> A+
Megagross is kind of overrated, even before Zygarde was banned. It hits hard, is tanky, and has a good speed tier, but its coverage is very lacking and it can be chipped down pretty easily. And that is more apparent when Pokemon like Rotom-Heat, Tangrowth, Zapdos, and Corviknight can force Megagross out if it lacks the coverage. Megagross’s speed tier and bulk are only good, which means Pokemon like Darmanitan-G, Greninja, and Dragapult are pretty scary for Megagross.
Megagross is also a Mega, so it’s fighting for a Mega spot and it means you can’t hold a scarf, band, leftovers, ect.
And all honestly, I am not that scared of fighting it when I see it in team preview, because checking it now is just natural.
Obviously, it’s still top tier, but without its buddy Zygarde, it isn’t as threatening as people believe.