Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v3 (Usage in post #251)

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Scarfire

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How have peoples experiences with Deciudeye been? I found some use in Sub/SD/Spirit/Sneak and spooky plate, but actually building around the dude and making him do work was hard for me. Tbf, I played pretty poorly during my testing, so I wanted to hear anyone else's thoughts who were able to optimize him, a team around him, and their overall thoughts on the mon vs OU.
 
I played against a Sub/Curse/Spirit Shackle/Roost Decidueye on the 1600s ladder that was more annoying than anything else. Of course, I was using Incineroar which completely walls it, and sub sets are toasted by infiltrator Dragapult or Chandelure. I don't think it has the offensive prowess to be effective, and with the wealth of ghost attackers running around on the ladder, it has particularly poor defensive typing.

To ensure that this post isn't essentially a one-liner, I've been having some success with defensive Celebi. It checks a lot of crazy threats like non-rain banded Dracovish and most variants of Excadrill, in addition to having considerable utility.
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 152 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Recover
This is even able to beat some Zeraora 1v1; Knock off does a little over half and once it loses its item it can regain HP with Recover.
 

ausma

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How have peoples experiences with Deciudeye been? I found some use in Sub/SD/Spirit/Sneak and spooky plate, but actually building around the dude and making him do work was hard for me. Tbf, I played pretty poorly during my testing, so I wanted to hear anyone else's thoughts who were able to optimize him, a team around him, and their overall thoughts on the mon vs OU.
I've been trying to run it, and as I said in my original post, it's really kind of subpar. It requires a lot of team support as well as strong play to fully make use of. Scarf allots it with the speed it needs, but it relies on SD to make it properly deal damage; AV/Band accommodate the issue of switching in and its generally weak offenses respectively, but it always has something huge it misses out on to be viable, which makes me think it isn't really going to be that good in the tier aside from maybe breaking stall.

Because of this, I believe its best shot at success lies in Sub/SD/Blade/Spirit. Leaf Blade allows for it to properly threaten bulky waters/darks as well as the rising Unaware users; truthfully, I don't think it gets much merit from priority unless you're optimizing it to sweep. Though, you shouldn't really do that anyway mainly because of its abysmal speed and mediocre power--plus, normals outright wall you, which is kind of not good. Sucker Punch is an option for this reason. Though, while either move could work, but you lose out on being able to properly nail the bulky waters plaguing the tier currently.

Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spirit Shackle
- Leaf Blade
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

This is the spread I've been running; while not fully optimized, it has enough speed to outpace base 60s at their max, which gives you the opportunity to sub up more reliably on more passive Pokemon. Dragapult and Chandelure take a fat shit on it, though, because subbing on the switch into yields little to no product unless they're already considerably weakened, or you already have +2, which is possible.

252 Atk Spooky Plate Decidueye Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 174-206 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (even worse against Hex pult)
252 Atk Spooky Plate Decidueye Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 152-180 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Without the spooky plate, they're both rolls at +2.

+2 252 Atk Decidueye Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 248-294 (95 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 290-344 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Though, if you're not running Spooky Plate, you ought to run Sucker Punch, which would OHKO both 100% of the time at +2. But, you take a more notable risk against CM Chandelure and DD/Hex Pult variants.

Decidueye @ Spell Tag
Ability: Long Reach
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spirit Shackle
- Leaf Blade
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

This is probably your best shot at sweeping, as you get pretty much everything you would want under the sun running this variant, including the ability to remedy your power issue while getting some priority in. The speed spread this time is to outpace adamant/modest Vish/Toxtricity. The big issue of this variant is you're gonna wear down really quickly, and given its low speed and inability to remedy this issue (unlike with Mimikyu's Disguise), it's really inconsistent. I wouldn't recommend running this unless you're a Decidueye god, but if you want it, here you go. It'd probably be better if it got an extra moveslot for Sub or Roost, but such is the nature of the game.

TL;DR You're probably going to get the most mileage out of stallbreaking with it; it's by no shape or means a cleaner, and you should probably run mons that would take advantage of the things it can trap and eradicate, including stuff like Seismitoad, Defensive Clef, Quagsire, or Pex. Though, if you're really insistent to run it as a sweeper, you're only going to get some degree of consistency on webs, an already inherently volatile archetype.
 
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Gross Sweep

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I've got a few things I want to go over. At this point I feel like most people are starting to make adjustments to the Home meta. Obviously it has only been out about a week, and tons of things will change but that initial shift of "hey I should probably account for Keldeo when building" has taken hold. With that in mind there is one new home mon that has already gotten plenty of attention in this thread that I want to address.

The first handful of times I went up against this thing on the ladder I was honestly less than amazed. I thought it came across a little underwhelming and was going to end up back in UU like last gen. After actually building a team utilizing Zeraora my opinion has changed. While the power is still less than ideal, 423 speed is just flat good. effectively being the fastest relevant mon in the meta is something that will always aid a mon. Dragapult is on what feels like every other team, so sitting there faster is something that just makes me smile every time I send this thing out.

Aside from an incredible speed tier Zeraora has access to really nice coverage for the current tier we find ourselves in. Between Close Combat and Grass Knot pretty much all the relevant ground types have to somewhat fear switching in. On top of this Zeraora has Knock Off which helps against some common switch ins like the Rotom variants, so they're at least losing their item. On top of this Electric stab is just really cool right now. With the exception of Rotom a lot of electrics have seemingly digressed with the loss of Hidden Power, so it's nice to see one still going strong (Tho Zera will feel it when it can't HP Ice a Lando after one of the expansions).

Now onto the bigger topic I wanted to talk about, being some thoughts on how OU should move forward with suspects and why the tier feels kind of odd building wise for a good number of people.

As some of you know I lead the RMT section here on Smogon, so the process of building teams and making teams as close to perfect as they can be has always interested me. With this in mind I have spent countless hours over the past few years scrolling through the OU section of the builder trying to find the perfect mon for a number of teams. After looking at Sayuze's post I opened up the builder and scrolled through for a little while trying to see if there was something I could come up with, as I have honestly found this meta less than amazing.

I firmly believe that currently someone can open up their builder, find some interesting mon with some sweeping/cleaning potential like a Cloyster, throw on a Dugtrio, add a couple strong breakers on there like Conkeldurr or Hydreigon, and as long as the last few mons make a decent backbone you'll be alright.

Personally I am not the biggest fan of being able to pick a sweeper, and just input the corresponding Dugtrio set to achieve success. There are a lot of arguments swirling around about whether or not trapping is competitive or healthy for the metagame, so I wont go into it that much. More or less just wanted to point out that I feel the removal of Dugtrio from the tier would be a positive step before I get into the meat of my post.

My bigger takeaway was what the meta looked like, when comparing this generation to last (I know this isn't the best thing to do). From a current gen OU perspective we've never really had to deal with losing toys, only learning how to play with new ones. SS OU honestly looks like some weird mess of SM UU mixed with a handful of SM OU mons. I think the OU community has gotten a little bit spoiled with some very strong overall mons. Not looking to fuel a legends are for noobs argument, but not having mons like Tapu Bulu, Landorus-T, Magearna, Heatran, Zapdos, and Tornadus-T (on top of a lot of other non-legends like Garchomp, Gliscor, M-Scizor, Volcarona and others) that provide some very real defensive presence on top of being mons that can also stand firmly as offensive threats to opposing teams has made building awkward. The power curve that OU has followed in the past has been thrown for a bit of a loop as the tier still has plenty of strong mons that are more than enough offensively, but more or less lack real defensive utility. Losing that mon like Tapu Bulu where you could be running an SD set, but still rely on it to help check an Ash-Gren level offensive mon hurts.

We still have some mons that hit hard and provide solid help defensively like Excadrill and Hydreigon, but not nearly to the same level of quantity. Obviously the overall power level of current gen OU has fallen, but some of those stronger mons from gens prior remain, leaving us in a weird void where seeing a balanced metagame seems difficult. Do we go wild and ban a ton of things? Do we just say screw SS OU stage 1 and wait for the expansions knowing we'll move onto a remake or some SS2 not to long after? Honestly I don't know. I have tried to look at old gens, since obviously they made it work with fewer mons, but they also had to deal with less in terms of moves/items/and in some cases typing. Since I don't even want to think about how something like DPP would have dealt with Primarina as it's just to different.

I honestly look forward to seeing how Finch and the other council members decide to deal with SS OU, since it's in a very interesting place in my eyes. All this being said I wouldn't expect anything in terms of a suspect in the next few weeks since it would definitely be premature, and as a builder I still like the idea of mastering this meta. If I had to throw out some sort of plan I would probably look at Dugtrio, maybe stop and look at the multi hit flinch shenanigans, and then after taking a breath look at either testing something else that makes itself known as potentially broken or even try and retest Melmetal as I believe that was something mentioned for the council's future plans. I definitely feel this generation will probably need more suspects than SM did, but at the same time I don't want to see the tier running one test after another in an endless fashion. While action will be necessary to get this meta where it needs to be, we as a community will need to show a smidgen of patience allowing for people to have time to actually develop the meta before we jump on a suspect bandwagon.

My bad for going off on a bit of a tangent on this, but after looking at Sayuze's post I just got to thinking, and knew I wouldn't stop thinking about it unless I made some kind of rambling post. Sorry if this much suspect kind of talk is frowned upon in this thread (really unsure on that), if it's gotta be moderated in some fashion I understand.
 

AnimaticLunatic

I COULD BE BANNED!
Centiskorch @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 228 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Fire Lash
- Leech Life
- Knock Of

Now yes, this thing is week to status (only toxic really) but it is fun way to mess with people that expect rest and it patches up your uninvested attack and deffense somewhat. This is mostly here to threaten Hydreigon and allow you to beet some of your physical checks/counters and fun win condition. Especially if a Toad wants to toxic you you can coil up to 3 times and just leech life it. I just sometimes wish that bug was not countered by seven god damn types when it comes to offense so that you would not invite terrakion or toxapex fot free.
 
I've supported a ban on purely RNG-based items (King's Rock/Razor Fang, Brightpowder, Quick Claw, etc.) since Gen 4. They might not be broken in most cases but they perfectly fit the definition of uncompetitive. They take an element of the game out of the hands of the players and place it at the mercy of RNG instead, and offer no real competitive utility in return. It just so happens that in the case of Skill Link / Beat Up users, it's both uncompetitive and somewhat broken, but I think there's a solid enough argument that these items (or at the very least King's Rock/Razor Fang which is the biggest offender at the moment) should be banned anyways on their own merit and that we wouldn't really lose anything of any competitive value in the process.
I agree to the ban of Brightpowder, since the evasion clause is a thing (i know it applies only to moves like Double Team, but i think it may enter in this category). But banning extremely situational items like the King's Rock isn't necessary. Their users are not that viable (with Cloyster being it's only viable abuser). It's luck based, yeah. But it doesn't centralize or makes the environment any unhealthy. Same thing with Quick Claw, but the difference is that the item is so unreliable, I don't see how it's broken, honestly.
 
I agree to the ban of Brightpowder, since the evasion clause is a thing (i know it applies only to moves like Double Team, but i think it may enter in this category). But banning extremely situational items like the King's Rock isn't necessary. Their users are not that viable (with Cloyster being it's only viable abuser). It's luck based, yeah. But it doesn't centralize or makes the environment any unhealthy. Same thing with Quick Claw, but the difference is that the item is so unreliable, I don't see how it's broken, honestly.
I've supported a ban on purely RNG-based items (King's Rock/Razor Fang, Brightpowder, Quick Claw, etc.) since Gen 4. They might not be broken in most cases but they perfectly fit the definition of uncompetitive.
Highlighted the important part that you apparently didn't read.
 

Dumb Sir

Banned deucer.
I agree to the ban of Brightpowder, since the evasion clause is a thing (i know it applies only to moves like Double Team, but i think it may enter in this category). But banning extremely situational items like the King's Rock isn't necessary. Their users are not that viable (with Cloyster being it's only viable abuser). It's luck based, yeah. But it doesn't centralize or makes the environment any unhealthy. Same thing with Quick Claw, but the difference is that the item is so unreliable, I don't see how it's broken, honestly.
Now, this isn't the thread nor time to be discussing a ban on RNG based items, the though discussion should eventually be had at some point. I think the misunderstanding comes in the form that these items aren't considered to be overwhelmingly strong, so that a blanket ban may seem a bit harsh and out-of-the-blue. However, it isn't that that the items are busted in terms of power level but it is that these RNG based items are used for the sole purpose of taking control out of the player's hands in a competitive environment.

Imagine in another competitive game, say League of Legends or Smash, there was a character (Hero lol) or item in the game who's main mechanic was that sometimes, not always, but with like a 20% or even 10% chance, they could just win without any input or skill of the user or the opponents needed to be taken into account. Obviously, that is wildly stupid, and would be quickly considered for a ban (Something that actually occurred in some Australian Smash Tournaments with Hero). This is exactly the case with RNG based items like Kings Rock / Razor Claw and Quick Claw.

Of course, the counter argument to this would be "But RNG is a natural factor of mons, so what makes the RNG any worse? Why not just remove RNG in its entirety?" While it is true that RNG is a fundamental part of Pokémon, I would have to disagree that all RNG is created equal. If a player that is objectively worse than another wins an important tournament due to being carried by a completely ridiculous and broken 41% flinch chance, then there is something to be said. However I will not go further in depth here about stuff like Serene Grace as, again, this is the time nor place. Just consider that, even though something is not overly powerful, it can still broken and restrictive.
 
Just want to get in a quick "I'm sorry" for bringing up the King's Rock discourse again, but I also do want to ask if anyone has any insight on how the new changes to the meta have effected the eternal Dracovish vs Water Immunity war? I have seen Seismitoad less and less lately, seems like it is struggling to compete for a team slot with all the new toys, despite the fact that Ferrothorn are running Power Whip less frequently (I still always run it tho) Venusaur is pretty rampant now. I am also curious to see how the Home meta shakes up the viability contest of the 3 rotom forms.

Lastly, I was messing with a rain + Water Spout Smashtoise team for a bit, but it wasn't overly good. Thoughts on Shell Smash Blastoise?
 
Of course, the counter argument to this would be "But RNG is a natural factor of mons, so what makes the RNG any worse? Why not just remove RNG in its entirety?" While it is true that RNG is a fundamental part of Pokémon, I would have to disagree that all RNG is created equal. If a player that is objectively worse than another wins an important tournament due to being carried by a completely ridiculous and broken 41% flinch chance, then there is something to be said. However I will not go further in depth here about stuff like Serene Grace as, again, this is the time nor place. Just consider that, even though something is not overly powerful, it can still broken and restrictive.
See, I see this as analogous to to the arguments that were made against the Moody ban. If the prospect of banning a RNG-based mechanic comes up, people inevitably bring up moves missing, having secondary effects, etc. in an attempt to make a counterpoint. I think arguing over "how much RNG is too much" (or how much should a mechanic rely on RNG before it is deemed uncompetitive) is frankly beside the point, because as long as the answer is anything other than "100% RNG-based mechanics should be allowed", mechanics that rely purely on RNG should be banned. I believe this describes the items I mentioned (as well as a few others) perfectly. If you do think purely RNG-based mechanics should be allowed, then Evasion clause, OHKO clause, and Moody clause should be repealed, as this was the philosophy they were banned under.

Anyways we're deviating further and further away from discussion of the current metagame and delving into the depths of tiering philosophy, and regaredless I don't think King's Rock, Cloyster, or RNG-based items (or any combination thereof) is the most pressing issue at the moment. I'd rather see a particular three-headed blight on the game removed first.
 
I agree with other users such as Sayuze and Gross Sweep that this metagame has some issues. In my opinion, Dugtrio / Arena Trap is by far the biggest issue within the current metagame, as it makes Pokemon such as Keldeo, Calm Mind Clefable, and Aegislash nearly impossible to deal with on a consistent basis. On top of that, its influence on the metagame has become increasingly negative. The fact that it forces Pokemon such as Toxapex, Clefable, and Terrakion to run suboptimal sets is good evidence of this in my eyes; they're all seen running Shed Shell more and more often.

I also do want to ask if anyone has any insight on how the new changes to the meta have effected the eternal Dracovish vs Water Immunity war?
It really hasn't changed all that much besides the fact that we're seeing a little surge in Gastrodon, specifically Amnesia Gastrodon to take care of Mantine. On the topic of Mantine, it's also a decent option as a Water immunity now, as it also compresses the role as an Excadrill check, Defogger, and can consistently deal with rain teams in general.

Thoughts on Shell Smash Blastoise?
Frankly, Blastoise is bad and if you ever consider running it, you should probably run Cloyster instead. It's unable to beat very common Pokemon like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Keldeo, and struggles even more to find setup opportunities than Cloyster already does due to its rather underwhelming bulk and lack of a secondary typing.
 
Frankly, Blastoise is bad and if you ever consider running it, you should probably run Cloyster instead. It's unable to beat very common Pokemon like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Keldeo, and struggles even more to find setup opportunities than Cloyster already does due to its rather underwhelming bulk and lack of a secondary typing.
Ah ok, this is consistent with what I was feeling/seeing. As happy as I am that Blastoise gets smash, Cloyster is definitely the superior user
 

ThirdStrongestMole

Banned deucer.
Frankly, Blastoise is bad and if you ever consider running it, you should probably run Cloyster instead. It's unable to beat very common Pokemon like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Keldeo, and struggles even more to find setup opportunities than Cloyster already does due to its rather underwhelming bulk and lack of a secondary typing.
While I do agree that Blastoise is certainly outclassed by Cloyster, and I wouldn't personally consider using it in OU, it's not true that it can't break Ferrothorn once it manages to setup (which, like you said though, is often hard for it to find opportunities for).

If you're not running life orb, you just need to get less than 30% chip on ferro earlier on in the game:
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 252-298 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you're running life orb, ferro just completely folds to aura sphere:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 328-387 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

It is true though that Toxapex and specs Keldeo (the only set that can OHKO a -1 defense Blastoise) still remain as huge obstacles to Blastoise sweeps. I suppose then that, although I despise the mon, banded Dugtrio would be a very important partner to pair with Blastoise if you want to have some sort of a consistent chance at sweeping.
 
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I do think Blastoise is generally outclassed but could have some merit as an endgame rain + smash sweeper. I would never run Spout on it though, as the turn it uses to set up will almost certainly put it in a range where Spout is outdamaged by Hydro Pump or even Surf. I wouldn't compare it to Cloyster so much, as it can viabley set up on some special attackers. If anything it's just a bit worse than the myriad swift swim users which are threatening throughout the match, as opposed to Blastiose which must be kept in pristine condition until it's ready to sweep. It's too all or nothing for me with too much holding it back.
 
I do think Blastoise is generally outclassed but could have some merit as an endgame rain + smash sweeper. I would never run Spout on it though, as the turn it uses to set up will almost certainly put it in a range where Spout is outdamaged by Hydro Pump or even Surf. I wouldn't compare it to Cloyster so much, as it can viabley set up on some special attackers. If anything it's just a bit worse than the myriad swift swim users which are threatening throughout the match, as opposed to Blastiose which must be kept in pristine condition until it's ready to sweep. It's too all or nothing for me with too much holding it back.
Yeah, it took an absurd amount of support to pull off and the reward was generally not worth it, I was just curious to see if others were messing around with it outside of rain. I will say that Water Spout did retain a surprising amount of power with Rain Dish/team support, but like I said the amount of effort you have to put into it you're just better off doing something else.
 

Apagogie

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Does the council have an opinion about King's rock ? I have seen several posts complain about that but I don't think I have seen a council member exhibits his opinion about this item (except if I missed a post lol). Since it is only rng based, I don't think it will be a big loss to don't have access to king's rock anymore and will make games healthier.
 

Finchinator

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We are not looking into Cloyster or King's Rock at this exact moment in time.

We just experienced an unprecedented metagame shift when it was still developing to begin with. We have seen a grand total of one tournament game ever since Pokemon Home dropped and the ladder is still in the process of settling. There will be no action taken this week and I am hesitant to commit to anything immediately beyond that either. That is not to say we will be slow to act, but requesting immediate action is unrealistic. I do not plan to be conservative in calling for suspects or action, which seemed to be an issue people took with last generation, but it would be completely irresponsible to make a major tiering change based off of such a small and unreliable sample size.

People like Sayuze make some ok points about the state of the tier, but his post really lacked actual substance about specific action to be taken. This is not saying it was a bad post either, but it is simply to say that there is no substance to actually base arguments off of given how short lived the post-home metagame is at the moment. The fact of the matter is that if Home was released even a few days later, an Arena Trap suspect probably would have already started -- we were that close. It was released at a time that was less than ideal, but we can and will still act in a fashion to make the metagame as competitive and balanced as possible. You just cannot expect those actions to be done without sufficient backing or sample size. I am not here to rush us through the tiering process with an increased risk of compromising the actual decisions being made. We are not being lazy or ignoring the calls for action; there is an active discussion going on and we are very receptive to public discussion in this thread and throughout the community. However, we are not going to rush and now simply is not an appropriate time yet.
 
Most people here will probably just assume you can only use Special Attacking Blastoise.
While it is more common, Physical Blastoise shouldn’t be overlooked.
Blastoise @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Brick Break/Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Shell Smash
One of Blastoise’s main problems is dealing with Toxapex, which normally, it seems stupid to use a Physical Attacker over a Special Attacker.
This is due to how Blastoise’s only special Ground and Psychic moves are Confusion and Mud-Slap.
However, Blastoise also has access to Earthquake, which is pretty key in beating Toxapex.
After a +2, Adamant, and Life Orb boost, Blastoise will do a minimum of 81.2% damage to Toxapex, and will have a 56.3% to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blastoise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 247-291 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
This means that using Shell Smash, you don’t have to worry about Toxapex coming in and stalling you out with Haze.
The only scenario where Pex can Haze you is if you set up while it’s out or if Blastoise gets a low roll. The former case is just being stupid of you to just set up on Pex and the latter will only let it Haze once before needing to retreat.
But Physical Blastoise isn’t just good for having a better Pex match-up.
Blastoise can still beat many common match-ups.
Brick Break can 2HKO a max bulk Ferrothorn with a minimum of 58.2%
Earthquake will do a minimum of 77.7% to uninvested Keldeo.
Can also 2HKO max bulk Seismitoad with Earthquake.
Liquidation will do a minimum of 68.2% to bulk up Corviknight.
It’s actually pretty surprising how effective Physical Blastoise can be.
 
Most people here will probably just assume you can only use Special Attacking Blastoise.
While it is more common, Physical Blastoise shouldn’t be overlooked.
Blastoise @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Brick Break/Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Shell Smash
One of Blastoise’s main problems is dealing with Toxapex, which normally, it seems stupid to use a Physical Attacker over a Special Attacker.
This is due to how Blastoise’s only special Ground and Psychic moves are Confusion and Mud-Slap.
However, Blastoise also has access to Earthquake, which is pretty key in beating Toxapex.
After a +2, Adamant, and Life Orb boost, Blastoise will do a minimum of 81.2% damage to Toxapex, and will have a 56.3% to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blastoise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 247-291 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
This means that using Shell Smash, you don’t have to worry about Toxapex coming in and stalling you out with Haze.
The only scenario where Pex can Haze you is if you set up while it’s out or if Blastoise gets a low roll. The former case is just being stupid of you to just set up on Pex and the latter will only let it Haze once before needing to retreat.
But Physical Blastoise isn’t just good for having a better Pex match-up.
Blastoise can still beat many common match-ups.
Brick Break can 2HKO a max bulk Ferrothorn with a minimum of 58.2%
Earthquake will do a minimum of 77.7% to uninvested Keldeo.
Can also 2HKO max bulk Seismitoad with Earthquake.
Liquidation will do a minimum of 68.2% to bulk up Corviknight.
It’s actually pretty surprising how effective Physical Blastoise can be.
The thing with physical Blastoise is that it isn't necessary. If you want a balance breaker, then go with other physical water types, like Dracovish, Crawdant, Gyarados or Cloyster (it's biggest competition for a Shell Smash user), even after a Shell Smash boost, it's still relatively weak.
 
Potential one liner here but it needs to be said: home didn’t change anything when it comes to AT/Dugtrio and anyone pretending otherwise is frankly just making a dumb argument. If you were going to take action on duggy before home, there is nothing stopping you from doing so now and there certainly isn’t any valid balancing argument to delay action on duggy any further at this point. Your argument is just RULES IS RULES and it’s bad.
 

Finchinator

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Potential one liner here but it needs to be said: home didn’t change anything when it comes to AT/Dugtrio and anyone pretending otherwise is frankly just making a dumb argument. If you were going to take action on duggy before home, there is nothing stopping you from doing so now and there certainly isn’t any valid balancing argument to delay action on duggy any further at this point. Your argument is just RULES IS RULES and it’s bad.
I do not allude to any rules whatsoever in my post, so claiming my argument is "RULES IS RULES" in your three-line-one-liner seems to be quite misled. You also have a ridiculously linear outlook on things, which seems to be a common thread in this discussion. I will try to outline things a bit further in order to paint a proper picture for you, but I worry that many ban happy posters will turn a blind-eye to actual arguments and justified hesitation until their desires are appeased, so perhaps this is futile regardless of my efforts to be transparent. We could easily revert back to the decreased levels of public engagement and transparency of last generation if that is the case.

Regardless, to explain what I was alluding to...while the Pokemon added to the metagame may not make Arena Trap or Dugtrio less effective directly, these Pokemon (emphasis on the plural nature of this as there are a lot of new viable options) also warrant other Pokemon to see usage as teammates, as checks/counters, or as responses to other teammates/checks/counters that see increases in usage as a direct byproduct of Pokemon Home's changes to the metagame. Metagames are largely cyclical and the changes that will occur on the surface could seem predictable, but trends come-and-go at all different lengths of time and levels of effectiveness. Some things stick while some do not. The amount of possibilities in Pokemon is endless and the direction in which a metagame is to go is largely unpredictable at times like this.

Personally, I want Arena Trap to be banned. I have wanted it banned for a month or so now. I will support a suspect in the near future if I do not notice changes in the metagame that directly impact this, but there are countless variables in this equation that make it impossible to be certain on such a small, inconsistent sample size. Because of this, having a suspect right now would be premature. Maybe once we have seen the ladder settle just a little bit and a full week's worth of tournament play we will have a better idea of where things stand.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
The fact that no action is being considered against king's rock is quite depressing. No argument has been made in defense of a snowbally item that 100% relies on either making your opponent skip a turn or being entirely useless otherwise. It's a shame that well-thought arguments are met with indifference because someone is too afraid to make any change based on a supposedly small sample size or because they don't find it a problem (without giving any substantial argument).

I'd even go as far as to say that in order for king's rock (and other hax items) to stay unbanned, the burden of proof should be on the ones that want it/them unbanned. They are clearly uncompetitive and even a quick glance can tell you that, and even if they end up not being viable, the moment they start being used their whole strategy revolves around lucking out your opponent. I don't see any difference between allowing king's rock and banning evasion moves and ohko ones, either. I hope someone on the council considers doing something about hax items in the near future, or at least give a good answer as to why there will be no ban on hax items whatsoever.
 
The fact that no action is being considered against king's rock is quite depressing. No argument has been made in defense of a snowbally item that 100% relies on either making your opponent skip a turn or being entirely useless otherwise. [...]
On a note of hax being banworthy: We have banned Swagger and Sand Veil in the past - where is the major difference between this hax and other forms of it?
...
Actually, why are hax items allowed in the first place? I just realized I can build teams with brightpowder as well, how is that fair? I just won a matchup due to Brightpowder Kyurem...
 

Wolf

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The fact that no action is being considered against king's rock is quite depressing. No argument has been made in defense of a snowbally item that 100% relies on either making your opponent skip a turn or being entirely useless otherwise. It's a shame that well-thought arguments are met with indifference because someone is too afraid to make any change based on a supposedly small sample size or because they don't find it a problem (without giving any substantial argument).

I'd even go as far as to say that in order for king's rock (and other hax items) to stay unbanned, the burden of proof should be on the ones that want it/them unbanned. They are clearly uncompetitive and even a quick glance can tell you that, and even if they end up not being viable, the moment they start being used their whole strategy revolves around lucking out your opponent. I don't see any difference between allowing king's rock and banning evasion moves and ohko ones, either. I hope someone on the council considers doing something about hax items in the near future, or at least give a good answer as to why there will be no ban on hax items whatsoever.
Im pretty sure that actions will be taken against those "rng based items". The thing is, right now, OU council are struggling because the release timing and other ban worthy mechanics (arena trap being the first dog right now), which make their work a lot harder.

Ill be the first dude here to scream a quick ban for those unskillful and nerve-cracking items, but hey lets have some patience and let em deal with everthing at their pace :blobwizard:

Pce
 
The fact that no action is being considered against king's rock is quite depressing. No argument has been made in defense of a snowbally item that 100% relies on either making your opponent skip a turn or being entirely useless otherwise. It's a shame that well-thought arguments are met with indifference because someone is too afraid to make any change based on a supposedly small sample size or because they don't find it a problem (without giving any substantial argument).

I'd even go as far as to say that in order for king's rock (and other hax items) to stay unbanned, the burden of proof should be on the ones that want it/them unbanned. They are clearly uncompetitive and even a quick glance can tell you that, and even if they end up not being viable, the moment they start being used their whole strategy revolves around lucking out your opponent. I don't see any difference between allowing king's rock and banning evasion moves and ohko ones, either. I hope someone on the council considers doing something about hax items in the near future, or at least give a good answer as to why there will be no ban on hax items whatsoever.
There’s plenty of counter arguments to the Kings Rock ban if you bothered to review the original posts where this was brought up, namely that while the item fits the definition of uncompetitive, it doesn’t actually have an overwhelming impact on the meta.

Having a surge in Shed Shell to counter Dug, that’s what you’d call overcentralising. I’m sure that a decision will be made on whether Kings Rock should be banned once the more broken elements of the meta are addressed - we’re only four months in and the meta has changed a lot in that time.
 
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