Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v3 (Usage in post #251)

[Divine Retribution]

There’s plenty of counter arguments to the Kings Rock ban if you bothered to review the original posts where this was brought up, namely that while the item fits the definition of uncompetitive, it doesn’t actually have an overwhelming impact on the meta.

Is it actually a requirement for a mechanic that, as you admit, fits the definition of uncompetitive to have an overwhelming impact on the metagame in order to ban it? If we unbanned OHKO moves, would anyone actually use them in any serious capacity? Few people seem to use them in BSS and other tiers where they are allowed. I doubt they would suddenly become a centralizing force in the metagame, but if you do run into someone using them, there's a chance that's completely out of your control that you could lose to them through what essentially amounts to bad luck alone, no matter how well you play. As I understand it, that's why they're banned, not for being overcentralizing or having a huge impact on the metagame, but simply for taking control out of the hands of the players. I think a similar argument could be made against King's Rock and other RNG items.

I do agree that Dugtrio is a more important issue though, and I'd even say we should have a discussion about Aegislash before King's Rock and co. as well, although I haven't really made up my mind myself on that one.

 

[Finchinator]

The fact that no action is being considered against king's rock is quite depressing. No argument has been made in defense of a snowbally item that 100% relies on either making your opponent skip a turn or being entirely useless otherwise. It's a shame that well-thought arguments are met with indifference because someone is too afraid to make any change based on a supposedly small sample size or because they don't find it a problem (without giving any substantial argument).

No action is being considered on anything right now -- it's not just King's Rock and you would know that if you paid even a little bit of attention to previous posts. I have stated this numerous times. Taking it personally and applying it to King's Rock is just you not actually reading through posts (or reading through them and electing to ignore them, either or). Nobody is dismissing the arguments that are actually proper throughout this thread. Throughout this entire generation, arguments in this thread and the On The Radar thread have been used as justification for various tiering actions and this will continue moving forward. This has never been done in the past, but we are doing it now because what people have to say on the metagame actually matters. If all we are going to get for these efforts is people ignoring what we have to say in light of unprecedented mid-metagame shifts, then we are going to stop going out of our way to cater to public demand like previously. You are the one dismissing a very justified call for more time when the metagame just experienced a drastic shift. I was on the verge of giving this post a lurk more, but I do not like infracting liberally in a metagame discussion thread and I am trying to make examples of why people are being unrealistic and ignoring what is right in front of them.

I hope to see more people actually reading the discussion and engaging in a more respectful fashion to both tiering infrastructure and other posters. Otherwise I will just keep this thread locked. It is a privilege to have threads like these open to tiering discussion in particular.

 

[ausma]

I hate to diverge a bit of the discussion here, but I will admit the nature of this back and forth is kind of pedantic. So, to relight tiering discussion, I would like to discuss a Pokemon that has performed surprisingly well for me on mid-high ladder, and has been a consistent, flexible threat, yet has had little to no discussion. That Pokemon is Incineroar.

Incineroar? What is this thing doing in my OU, and why am I discussing it?

Let's dial back to Gen 7 for a moment; this Pokemon was threatened by an incredibly fast, powerful, overcentralized metagame, where the top threats were such things like Landorus, Greninja, Heatran, Toxapex, and Magearna. Sure, it checked Magearna, but the former 3 utterly shredded it. The ubiquitous nature of these powerful Pokemon made Incineroar incredibly niche at best, and on top of its dreadful hazard weakness and lack of reliable recovery, it was sorely underwhelming in Smogon Singles.

But then, it was blessed this generation. How, may you ask?

1: Parting Shot. The heel Pokemon finally got a move befitting of its role, and it's a move that does it incredible good as a defensive pivot. Not only does Intimidate stack on top of Parting Shot to considerably cleave a Pokemon's physical offenses, but it retains and even augments momentum while making switching in/pivoting in less defensive Pokemon a surprisingly easy task.

2: The Metagame Shift. Aside from Toxapex (for now), Incineroar's defensive niche is more valuable than ever. Its now unique Fire/Dark typing is unbelievably strong, as it resists the extremely common offensive types of Ghost, Dark, and Steel, something only shared by the offensively oriented Bisharp. Plus, as a bonus, it has an immunity to Prankster, and gives it a solid matchup against Grimmsnarl. However, this is partially mixed, as with the Swords of Justice now in the metagame along with Zeraora, this value has dropped slightly. Regardless, menaces such as Greninja and Landorus being gone is huge for it, as it can much more freely switch in and pivot more reliably. It's an extremely potent check against the viable HO option in Ghost spam, too!

3: Heavy-Duty Boots. While the item is necessitated, the fact it's necessitated is a testament to how huge of a boon it is for it. Being able to switch in for free regardless of a hazard stricken field is huge, and something it's wanted for the past gen. The loss of running AV is surprisingly not as huge of a deal as you'd expect, as with Parting Shot/Intimidate alongside its fairly strong 95/90/90 defenses, it's deceptively bulky. A hazard immunity lets this shine more than ever, and makes AV look like a joke.

4: Surprising Immediate Power. Even as a defensive pivot, Incineroar is still rocking STAB Knock Off/STAB Flare Blitz, and now even has Close Combat to more reliably smack Dark types. Incineroar has base 115 attack, and the power level having decreased makes this more notable. In sun, Flare Blitz becomes a consistent nuke, and STAB Knock Off is an extremely potent threat that a lot of the tier that does not appreciate at all. To fully illustrate this--despite being best as a defensive pivot--it's able to consistently threaten Physically Defensive Corviknight uninvested for a clean 2HKO without being in the sun. With Leftovers, it's a resoundingly in-your-favor roll to 2HKO it.

0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 204-242 (51 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 204-242 (51 - 60.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With all of this in mind, I like running this set.

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 192 SpD / 64 Spe
Careful Nature
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Toxic

You have enough speed to outpace uninvested Corviknight to nail it with Flare Blitz, and spec the rest into SpDef/HP to maximize your bulk. I like running Toxic, as it allows for Incineroar to cripple defensive switch ins, such as bulky Waters and Mandibuzz. However, Close Combat is also viable as a way to nail the Darks running in the tier.

Though, with all these new toys and the appreciation it has for this heavily altered metagame, it's important to consider some pretty huge weaknesses.

1: Lack of Reliable Recovery. This is probably the biggest general issue, as, despite its bulk, it will wear down, especially with Flare Blitz. As a pivot, this is a huge problem, as this means that it will need Wish support if it wants to stay healthy. Switching in usually isn't a problem for it, but switching in often means it will need to take a blow (or 2, if you're slower, which you often are) before acting. Now with the Swords of Justice and Zeraora running around, this is much more of an issue.

2: Swords of Justice/Excadrill. All of the swords are Fighting type, and the most renowned Keldeo/Terrakion have primary types that hard counter Incineroar's. This goes without saying, because, even with Parting Shot/Intimidate, the latter still is rocking base 130 attack boosted STAB Stone Edge/Close Combat, and the former isn't at all affected by Intimidate, meaning that it will need fellow teammates to soak these hits more consistently. Excadrill is also Excadrill, and now it's a lot more renowned, too.

This is all great, but how exactly can I use this, and with what?

It's best used as a defensive pivot, for sure. Parting Shot/Intimidate, 95/90/90 defenses, alongside a Fire/Dark combo is extremely strong, and allows for it to relatively easily switch in and make getting in less defensive Pokemon a lot easier thanks to its slow Parting Shots and the buttering up of the opponent's offenses to make setting up more efficient. Band/AV can hypothetically work, but Hazards and its speed issues make these options much less viable and require a lot of team support.

I've found its best partners lie in:

/

Mantine/Seismitoad
I cluster these mons together, because they perform pretty similarly with Incineroar. Not only are they good for soaking Keldeo/Vish blows thanks to Water Absorb, but they're also fantastic at creating a generally powerful defensive core that covers one another's backs, namely with Seismitoad.
More specifically, Seismitoad is strong against Terrakion/Excadrill, while Mantine is strong against Keldeo/Conkeldurr.

Corviknight
Corvi is just a good mon to have in general, really. For Incineroar specifically, it consistently covers Terrakion/Excadrill defensively, and can be fantastic for creating momentum with U-Turn alongside Incineroar's Parting Shot. Additionally, Incineroar greatly appreciates the ground immunity.

Rotom-Wash
Wash performs somewhat similarly to Mantine/Seismitoad, but has great pivoting qualities while simultaneously covering for EQ and Keldeo (and even immediately threatening it with its Scarf variant). Other appliances could maybe work, but I believe its best partner of the Rotoms is definitely Wash for its resistances and how Incineroar covers its Grass weakness.

Dugtrio
The better question is, when is Dugtrio not a good partner? You can use Parting Shot to lighten the blows of Terrakion/Zeraora/any good Incineroar Switchin and trap Toxapex or anything else Incineroar is either walled by or shredded by. God, I hate this thing.

If you still don't believe me, check out this replay, which greatly demonstrates every point I've made for it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1066432932

More replays!:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1066618743
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1066643000

You can also just look at replays at the higher ladder and you will not struggle to find much efficient use of it as a pivot.

All of this being said and done, do not sleep on Incineroar. I believe of the newcomers (aside from Zeraora/Terrakion) it has the most potential to grow (in this version of the metagame) in my time of using it, and even though it will not be a top tier Pokemon, it will have a solid niche as a defensive pivot.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Not trying to be facetious here, is there any reason why Bright Powder isn't integrated in the evasion clause?

 

[Deleted User 229847]

No action is being considered on anything right now -- it's not just King's Rock and you would know that if you paid even a little bit of attention to previous posts. I have stated this numerous times. Taking it personally and applying it to King's Rock is just you not actually reading through posts (or reading through them and electing to ignore them, either or). Nobody is dismissing the arguments that are actually proper throughout this thread. Throughout this entire generation, arguments in this thread and the On The Radar thread have been used as justification for various tiering actions and this will continue moving forward. This has never been done in the past, but we are doing it now because what people have to say on the metagame actually matters. If all we are going to get for these efforts is people ignoring what we have to say in light of unprecedented mid-metagame shifts, then we are going to stop going out of our way to cater to public demand like previously. You are the one dismissing a very justified call for more time when the metagame just experienced a drastic shift. I was on the verge of giving this post a lurk more, but I do not like infracting liberally in a metagame discussion thread and I am trying to make examples of why people are being unrealistic and ignoring what is right in front of them.

I hope to see more people actually reading the discussion and engaging in a more respectful fashion to both tiering infrastructure and other posters. Otherwise I will just keep this thread locked. It is a privilege to have threads like these open to tiering discussion in particular.

I appreciate your response, but I still find your arguments quite weak.
Yea, king's rock is not the only problem but it's the main abusable hax item in the game. Which is why I mostly referred to it. I also used the plural near the end so I have no idea what this is even about.
Next which I find a glaring giant hole in your whole reasoning and what didn't get an answer whatsoever, is that the uncompetitveness of said items doesn't go away when a metagame shift happens unless said items get drastically changed in their functions. It's dumbfounding to me that the council is waiting for something that has no real implication whatsoever on the uncompetitive aspect of the items. At best it indirectly influences them via usage stats, which could make king's rock a non-problem given its (supposedly) lowered usage, but that doesn't really solve the problem in itself.
Why does it take that much time to compile a list of hax items and ban them from the tier? What's the point of pointlessly waiting for useless statistics that add nothing to the discussion? And why is your response a mere one liner "no action is being taken at the moment"?

I have no idea why I should be infracted for disagreeing with your decision, but feel free to do so. That doesn't change the fact that your argument was bad. I also don't think I was particularly rude of something, I apologize if my post came out looking that way.

 

[Ketchup2]

I don't know if anyone's discovered this yet about Primarina, but I've been having decent success with a Calm Mind + Substitute variant of it that seems noteworthy. Not exactly the best innovator out there, so take it with a grain of salt if I messed up anything.

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Moonblast/Psychic
- Substitute/Psychic

This set aims to come in on pokemon that cannot hurt it, such as Mandibuzz, Cinderace, Hydregion, etc. and set up with Substitute and Calm Mind like most substitute setup sweepers do. Its dual stab combination hits most pokemon in OU at least neutrally, the only ones resisting being Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Venusaur, and Kommo-o. Hyper Voice lets it abuse Liquid Voice and bypass subs, which at +2, manages to 4hko defensive Kommo-O, 2hko SubToxic Aegislash, 3hko Sylveon lacking Calm Mind, and 2hkoing Mew (21.5% chance tosetup sweepers do. Its dual stab combination hits most pokemon in OU at least neutrally, the only ones resisting being Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Venusaur, and Kommo-o. Hyper Voice lets it abuse Liquid Voice and bypass subs, which at +2, manages to 4hko defensive Kommo-O, 2hko SubToxic Aegislash, 3hko Sylveon lacking Calm Mind, and 2hkoing Mew (guarenteed 3hko on specially defensive mew, if ran). Moonblast allows it OHKO Kommo-O lacking Bulletproof (Sylveon exists too, although most use Bulletproof), OHKO Kyurem, and basically to hit things that resist Hyper Voice. Alternatively, Psychic can turn Toxapex into setup fodder (for at least a +1 anyways), as well as making killing Kommo-O easier and surprising Venusaur and Toxtricity switching in on the assumption it has walled it.

This set has it's issues though. Zeraora hard counters it unless it gets blasted on the switch, Venusaur counters it unless caught with psychic on switch. Toxtricity gives it issues for the same reason as Venusaur. Opposing Calm Minders give it issues, as more fairies are beginning to run it. From what I've noticed, Excadrill makes a good parter with it, as it can eat up the poison and electric moves fired at it and is neutral to grass. Wish support from Clefable, Sylveon, etc. helps it last longer, Corviknight can safely U-Turn Primarina in safely, and I believe the bulk up + body press variant cores well with it despite their shared electric weakness.

Again, not the best at coming up with sets and describing them, so I apologize in advance if some of this isn't accurate. Just throwing this set out there and would like to see what y'all think. :)

 

[berunka]

Not trying to be facetious here, is there any reason why Bright Powder isn't integrated in the evasion clause?

Double Team, Minimize and the like consistently raise your evasion by a third. This immediately makes counterplay inconsistent, so clicking one move can turn a situation that absolutely should've been losing for you into a win. Bright Powder is an almost entirely useless item, requiring a more favorable one to be forgoed for it; you can't try to use it to win games. Whereas evasion moves can give any Pokemon a set to steamroll if luck's in their favor, Bright Powder is just a move that makes opposing mons miss when oftentimes it doesn't even matter. One can rely on the inaccuracy of opposing moves instead.

 

[ausma]

As a parting message regarding this whole King's Rock debate, as someone who's interested in discussing and innovating the meta, I'm just going to say it: I'm really tired of seeing it discussed.

It's been overly discussed with the same points as to why King's Rock, Dugtrio/Arena Trap, and co. are uncompetitive and deserved to be banned, and while I do agree with them (especially AT), I feel like those who are relenting for it are forgetting the fact we're in an absolutely chaotic metagame, and the council is working hard to try and get everything balanced out. This version of the metagame is, arguably, one of the most tumultuous, chaotic forms of competitive singles in an extremely long time, as instead of only gaining stuff, we're losing it as well. We're getting old Pokemon gradually reintroduced, we lost moves, and--most importantly--this is completely new to us.

Being so quick to aim for suspects and bans relentlessly, while inherently reasonable for what's running around, feels almost ignorant to the fact that optimizing a competitive scene requires patience. Being so insistent to ban this and ban that is the exact mentality that leads to even more disarray, and we get tripped up over ourselves because we're panicking. I get it, I do, but this is what leads to even more chaos, and why discussion as of recent in this thread has yielded little to no productivity.

Personally, while I think some things should probably be looked at, wanting it right here right now and constantly debating over it when it's been made clear the council has heard us and that they have plans to address what we're concerned about feels so unbelievably pointless to me. Instead of trying to make sense of what's now here so we can make a game plan going forward, we're arguing over a tired, incessantly talked about point that has already been addressed by the council and will be looked at. Maybe, instead of trying to push for something that is fruitless to keep trying to push for, we should try to figure out how to combat it and the meta as a whole, and let the latter naturally grow as we play and think instead of doing nothing and expecting the council to immediately act on what we're unhappy with (especially now, of all times). I'm incredibly grateful for the council for letting us have such an influence, as it should be, but disregarding their efforts and rashly pushing for suspects without letting things settle first just leads to more chaos and an ultimately slower development for our metagame.

It's been mentioned before, but I'll say it again. Most of all, we just need patience. Until the council acts (which they've made very clear they're going to do), instead of trying to get a suspect every 2 seconds, we should try to explore our new options and try to see how things we had before fare now and how things will change as a whole.

I don't know if anyone's discovered this yet about Primarina, but I've been having decent success with a Calm Mind + Substitute variant of it that seems noteworthy. Not exactly the best innovator out there, so take it with a grain of salt if I messed up anything.

View attachment 224071
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Moonblast/Psychic
- Substitute/Psychic

This set aims to come in on pokemon that cannot hurt it, such as Mandibuzz, Cinderace, Hydregion, etc. and set up with Substitute and Calm Mind like most substitute setup sweepers do. Its dual stab combination hits most pokemon in OU at least neutrally, the only ones resisting being Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Venusaur, and Kommo-o. Hyper Voice lets it abuse Liquid Voice and bypass subs, which at +2, manages to 4hko defensive Kommo-O, 2hko SubToxic Aegislash, 3hko Sylveon lacking Calm Mind, and 2hkoing Mew (21.5% chance tosetup sweepers do. Its dual stab combination hits most pokemon in OU at least neutrally, the only ones resisting being Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Venusaur, and Kommo-o. Hyper Voice lets it abuse Liquid Voice and bypass subs, which at +2, manages to 4hko defensive Kommo-O, 2hko SubToxic Aegislash, 3hko Sylveon lacking Calm Mind, and 2hkoing Mew (guarenteed 3hko on specially defensive mew, if ran). Moonblast allows it OHKO Kommo-O lacking Bulletproof (Sylveon exists too, although most use Bulletproof), OHKO Kyurem, and basically to hit things that resist Hyper Voice. Alternatively, Psychic can turn Toxapex into setup fodder (for at least a +1 anyways), as well as making killing Kommo-O easier and surprising Venusaur and Toxtricity switching in on the assumption it has walled it.

This set has it's issues though. Zeraora hard counters it unless it gets blasted on the switch, Venusaur counters it unless caught with psychic on switch. Toxtricity gives it issues for the same reason as Venusaur. Opposing Calm Minders give it issues, as more fairies are beginning to run it. From what I've noticed, Excadrill makes a good parter with it, as it can eat up the poison and electric moves fired at it and is neutral to grass. Wish support from Clefable, Sylveon, etc. helps it last longer, Corviknight can safely U-Turn Primarina in safely, and I believe the bulk up + body press variant cores well with it despite their shared electric weakness.

Again, not the best at coming up with sets and describing them, so I apologize in advance if some of this isn't accurate. Just throwing this set out there and would like to see what y'all think. :)

It's a fun idea! I think Sub CM prima definitely has potential in the right hands, but I feel like a Choiced variant just yields a lot more consistent, practical product, as its main boon is its immediate power and its devastating dual STABs. Your set kind of reminds me of Metronome Dracovish, where it has the ability to do work for its surprise factor and general effectiveness against more defensive teams, but struggles a lot more against offensive archetypes.

I'm unsure as to why Liquid Voice Hyper Voice though. Torrent Surf/Aria (the latter to preserve the sub penetrating quality) is just outright better, especially if you're running sub. You get more power (since Liquid Voice doesn't yield any power boost unlike the -ates), and you can potentially augment your strength if you cut your HP using Sub down to less than 1/3. I would only really get it if your team is reliant on or heavily appreciates burns, but just in general it feels like you'd get more mileage out of Torrent.

 

[Ketchup2]

I'm unsure as to why Liquid Voice Hyper Voice though.

It's more or less to bypass opposing subs, unless Sparkling Aira does as well. I haven't used Primarina much until now lol. Not used to using the starter abilities since a majority of the time, they aren't even used.

The reason I decided to point this one out more is because I tried using a choiced one and it just wasn't putting in enough work. At least, for me anyways. I feel like Primarina is going to be one of those 'mons that have multiple sets. From what I'm hearing, both Sub + CM and Specs seem to be doing very well currently.

 

[ausma]

It's more or less to bypass opposing subs, unless Sparkling Aira does as well. I haven't used Primarina much until now lol. Not used to using the starter abilities since a majority of the time, they aren't even used.

Aria is, in fact, a sound move! A lot of people don't know that from what I've seen, but it is one. The one thing about it that isn't really all too great is that it heals burns, so that could in part give Liquid Voice Hyper Voice a niche. But, I think Torrent is more useful overall, especially if you're running a move that allows you to manipulate how much HP you have at a given time.

Here's how I'd alter your set:

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Substitute

Psychic for sure is a great coverage move on Primarina, but I feel like since you're running a Substitute set and that you already have an incredibly nice STAB combo that you aren't really gonna need it too desperately. Ofc, you are Pex weak, but Psychic isn't really going to realistically OHKO it anyway (unless you already have +6) before it hazes and rids of your boosts. I would get rid of any Toxapex before setting up anyway.

Alternatively, you could run a Metronome set to keep your Torrent consistently intact, but Leftovers is probably all around more useful to run on a Sub variant.

 

[Ketchup2]

Aria is, in fact, a sound move! A lot of people don't know that from what I've seen, but it is one. The one thing about it that isn't really all too great is that it heals burns, so that could in part give Liquid Voice Hyper Voice a niche. But, I think Torrent is more useful overall, especially if you're running a move that allows you to manipulate how much HP you have at a given time.

Here's how I'd alter your set:

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Substitute

Psychic for sure is a great coverage move on Primarina, but I feel like since you're running a Substitute set and that you already have an incredibly nice STAB combo that you aren't really gonna need it too desperately. Ofc, you are Pex weak, but Psychic isn't really going to realistically OHKO it anyway (unless you already have +6) before it hazes and rids of your boosts. I would get rid of any Toxapex before setting up anyway.

Alternatively, you could run a Metronome set to keep your Torrent consistently intact, but Leftovers is probably all around more useful to run on a Sub variant.

Wow, didn't know Aria bypasses Sub. I'll go ahead an update my current set. Not the post, but just any future Primarina I run. Tried using it alongside Zeraroa, Kommo-O, Corviknight, Excadrill, and the Incineroar set you posted, and it all works very well together.

 

[CoolMan6001]

For anyone calling for bans now, this can't happen right now because of one thing:

People are trying to learn the new metagame.

But you may ask, "We know Arena Trap is uncompetitive, why aren't we suspecting it?"
That's not because there's debate on wether or not it's bad in the new meta, but because the meta significantly changed and people are still learning about it.

The changes make it unwise to start a suspect test now because the tests would be filled with the chaos of not having enough knowledge of what's good. It would be a distraction to the test.

So don't call for bans yet in this new metagame because people need to learn it. At least wait untill march to call bans. (Maybe a bit later)

EDIT: TLDR, the meta isn't ready for a suspect test.

 

[MrHands]

TLDR, the meta isn't ready for a suspect test.

Yeah quickban Duggy instead. Literally everyone on this god damn website agrees apparently including mods and the OU council. The longer you wait the bigger of a negative impact on the meta it will cause.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

I hate to diverge a bit of the discussion here, but I will admit the nature of this back and forth is kind of pedantic. So, to relight tiering discussion, I would like to discuss a Pokemon that has performed surprisingly well for me on mid-high ladder, and has been a consistent, flexible threat, yet has had little to no discussion. That Pokemon is Incineroar.

I would bring up Vaporeon as another potential partner for Incineroar, as it brings many of the same attributes you noted with it having a Water immunity and being a potential switch-in to many Water- and Ground-types. More importantly, however, is its ability to pass around some fat wishes, which for a defensive pivot with no recovery (outside of like Leech Life) that's dependant on a recoil move seems extremely useful. I know Vaporeon isn't exactly a meta threat but neither is Incineroar for that matter so :shrug:
Wish-passing fairies like Sylv and Wish Clef (?) also help and can switch into random Fighting moves while drawing in stuff like Aegis for Incineroar to pivot in on.

Finally, I would also consider U-Turn over PShot, as it always breaks the Sub of a potential Hydreigon switch-in and more importantly allows you to switch out of Soundproof Kommo-o, which otherwise blocks your pivoting move and can set up on you somewhat freely depending on the set.

 

[RajonRandom]

What do you think about Terrakion in this metagame? I built a team to cover up his main weaknesses (Aegislash, Dragapult, Corviknight, Bulky grass/waters...), but most of the time he is unable to play (unless I predict with volturn), as he cannot switch into many mons (Rotoms, Cinderace, Pex, Ferro etc)

I'm using the swords dance set

 

[Mame YO]

I’ve used swords dance and choice band and I actually like the mon a lot in the current meta but every time he gets a kill, if the opponent has a duggy, he’s gone. Soooooo... ask again when duggy/AT is banned i guess.

 

[Jordy]

Terrakion's really good right now. It can be a little hard for it to switch into play, but Hydreigon and Mandibuzz are often Pokemon you can take advantage of with Terrakion.

The Swords Dance set in particular is an absolute menace; there's no Pokemon that can deal with a +2 Terrakion consistently, especially if they're running Earthquake. On the topic of Earthquake, people often feel the need to drop it in favor of Quick Attack + Life Orb to avoid being trapped by Dugtrio, ultimately hurting Terrakion's wallbreaking potential because being walled by Aegislash is absolutely terrible right now. You can simply run Shed Shell instead. Other Pokemon such as Clefable and Toxapex which have been seen running Shed Shell are often still crippled by Knock Off, meaning Dugtrio can still trap them in long-term games, but this doesn't apply to Terrakion. Terrakion's one of the few Pokemon that can consistently scare people out of using Knock Off thanks to Justified, so maintaining its Shed Shell isn't very hard.

I would also like to touch a little on the Stealth Rock set we've been seeing a little more of. Although you don't entirely capitalize on Terrakion's breaking capabilities with it, it's a very good Stealth Rock setter because it can beat common entry hazard removers like Corviknight, Mandibuzz, Rotom-H, and Excadrill one-on-one, and forces a lot of switches.

 

[Moonballer]

Boots Torkoal has been fun for me, it really helps push any weather war into your favor because you can switch into Pelipper's scald a once, or twice with wish support, and they usually end up taking SR damage switching in pelipper so much. But what I am really excited about is Specs Venusaur. I played with Growth + 3 attacks for awhile, and of course it does work but I wanted to explore. Ran Sleep Powder + 3 attacks for awhile, and it was nice to have a fast, and somewhat unexpected sleep, but of course the accuracy isn't always there and my opponents were never extremely hampered by it, if anything they would keep their slept mon safe and away and now I am down to just 3 attacks, I also experienced a little bit of 4MSS struggling to fit Growth/Sleep Powder, Solar Beam/Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Weather Ball, and Earth Power into a set. I found whenever I dropped one coverage move I would immediately wish I had it. So I've been running specs venu.

Venusaur @ Choice Specs
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball
- Earth Power

I feel that this set capitalizes on the limited turns of sun you have very well. Since duggy is still around, I think it may be handy to drop earth power for solar beam or leaf storm if you want a little bit more immediate power, but I haven't tried it yet and I am not sure there is anything that Giga Drain doesn't cover that those would.

It's really easy to get into a weather war with Pelipper early game and wear it down to the point that it will die switching in again, and then you can really go to town with Venu. I haven't really mentioned Ttar as far as weather wars go because Duggy just traps it for me.

I'm still playing with it and learning about it, so I don't have any calcs to show at the moment, but if people are curious about it I can sort some out later.

 

[CoolMan6001]

Yeah quickban Duggy instead. Literally everyone on this god damn website agrees apparently including mods and the OU council. The longer you wait the bigger of a negative impact on the meta it will cause.

Whatever happens to Arena Trap is for the council to decide upon. I doubt they will quickban it right now.

 

[Dreadfury]

What do you think about Terrakion in this metagame?

I'd like it a lot, lot more if it didn't invite Duggy in for free after picking up a kill.

Easy top-tier threat once Duggy goes though.

 

[peng]

It sounds a bit stupid but depending on the team, SD LO Terrakion can actually forego Close Combat to squeeze in all of Stone Edge / Earthquake / Quick attack to give you the best of both worlds against Aegislash and Dugtrio. Whilst Close Combat is undeniably an amazing attack most of the time, it does provide somewhat redundant coverage with Earthquake if you're committed to going down the anti-Aegislash route already.

Makes you worse against Ferrothorn / Kommo-o and of course losing the 100% accurate STAB can be a shitty trade-off, but from a sheer punching holes whilst beating traditional counterplay angle, SD / Stone Edge / EQ / Quick Attack can be pretty scary.

 

[VannAccessible]

It sounds a bit stupid but depending on the team, SD LO Terrakion can actually forego Close Combat to squeeze in all of Stone Edge / Earthquake / Quick attack to give you the best of both worlds against Aegislash and Dugtrio. Whilst Close Combat is undeniably an amazing attack most of the time, it does provide somewhat redundant coverage with Earthquake if you're committed to going down the anti-Aegislash route already.

Makes you worse against Ferrothorn / Kommo-o and of course losing the 100% accurate STAB can be a shitty trade-off, but from a sheer punching holes whilst beating traditional counterplay angle, SD / Stone Edge / EQ / Quick Attack can be pretty scary.

At this point, why not just use Rhyperior instead if you prefer Edgequake coverage?

It gets STAB on Edgequake and laughs at Dugtrio because of its natural bulk and Solid Rock making EQ weaker:

Dugtrio’s EQ vs Adamant Rhyperior 252 HP and 4 Def = 40.7 - 48.6

 

[peng]

At this point, why not just use Rhyperior instead if you prefer Edgequake coverage?

It gets STAB on Edgequake and laughs at Dugtrio because of its natural bulk and Solid Rock making EQ weaker:

Dugtrio’s EQ vs Adamant Rhyperior 252 HP and 4 Def = 40.7 - 48.6

...because its a completely different Pokemon? Shit speed stat means Rhyp flat out loses to a bunch of stuff like Aegislash, which is the entire purpose of having Earthquake to begin with.

Non-CC Terrakion plays very differently to Rhyperior.

 

[GyaGya]

Just wanted to say, this game has been crazy. I had always watched the competitive scene, and had an understanding of it at least. With this new gen, I figured I'd give it a shot with making teams, and actually playing around with the mechanics. With dmax, and gmax, and Max airstream boosts, to unburden hawlucha-zilla, or fish and his fiscious rend of utter jaw dropping damage output, and of course darm.... I like how far everything's come since then, and hopefully this current bombshell of new mons in the meta will smoothen out. Thank you to everyone working on the topics and issues at hand!

 

[rubberducky402]

Necrozma is something I have been playing around with and it is extremely good. Autotomize + 3 Attacks (Photon, Heat Wave, Power Gem) with Weakness Policy is a potent late-game sweepers since common revenge killers like Hydreigon and Dragapult can't knock you out while you get the boost. Pair it with a Spike user like Ferrothorn, Mew, Golisopod, etc... it is super anti-hyper offense.

Instead of Power Gem you can use Calm Mind instead which allows you to destroy balance since nothing on balance has anything to take Photon-Heat Wave coverage at +1, including Mandibuzz since all it can do to you is give you a Weakness Policy boost.

Truly underrated, glad to see a lot of people on the ladder using it now