Metagame NP: RU Stage 1 - I Lost Something in the Hills (Indeedee-M banned)

[Lt. Surge07]

I pretty much agree with the bans, as much as I love using scorch, it needed to go. The fish needed to go as well.

 

[CryoGyro]

Probably talking to a brick wall here, but if you actually read the post beyond the headline, you'll see that Salazzle was as close as it could get to being banned: 5/11 voted ban. There is no particular "love" for Salazzle; its impact gets talked (and complained) about almost daily on Discord. This vote does not shut the door on any of these Pokemon being evaluated in the future.

I was curious, so I charted the council's votes:

Hide

Quite the diversity of opinions, I'd say. I'm starting to feel that the key question of tiering RU this gen will be, "How much strong-but-sorta-manageable wallbreaker pressure are we willing to tolerate?" That's naturally gonna have a high variety of responses.

 

[Corthius]

Skorch needed to go. But seriously. Why does the council like salazzle so much? All these bans and rises have benefitted Salazzle. Next thing you know, they're gonna ban lax, the only thing that can check Salazzle and its partner in crime, Ninetails. Every team is gonna be sun spam, Darmanitan will fall to RU for sun spam, and RU will become unplayable.

If the council would have banned everything that is against Salazzle, they would have banned Indeedee too. Even thinking that Darmanitan would fall to RU shows that you don't know what you are talking about. Darm is such a huge threat, even if Drought gets banned in UU so nobody considers to think about such a unrealistic scenario. More so there is the possibility that Drought get's banned in UU so you don't have to think about sun becomming broken since the bans will apply to the lower tiers as well.
Please do not make posts that don't have any substance or aren't well thought out in any way.

 

[Nat]

I definitely did not expect to be logging on to make a post so soon but I've been playing ssru for a week or so and there's some stuff i'd care to address. This post is going to be discussing my thoughts on aurora veil, slurpuff and linoone, and ultimately how I feel about their current place within the metagame. To preface before I begin, I think our metagame would do well to remove veil and slurpuff from ru. I think linoone is fine. Anyway, here we go.

Aurora Veil, in my opinion, is probably the easier sell of the two things I'm attempting to. It was voted out 8-2 last gen by the council, and most of the scenarios surrounding aurora veil are unchanged between the two generations. I'd argue the limitations rationalized within this post are even more troublesome today than 2 years ago. For instance, Pangoro has now been upgraded to Silvally-Dark & Scrafty, both of which are incredibly viable. Silvally-Dark is very arguably the best form within the meta as is, so it's quite the easy fit. SD/multi-attack/flame charge/filler more or less clears out most of the meta, let alone from behind at most 6 turns of veil. Scrafty having access to moxie w/ dd is one component as to why it's a pain to deal w/ behind veil. +1 speed w/ a jolly nature outspeeds common threats to it such as zard, viriz, raichu, and others. You're probably thinking that this (and an unboosted sillvaly-dark) aren't too much of a problem w/ competent revengers such as scarf-passimian, scarf croak, etc. It can probably sweep the rest of your team, save for your scarfer, or at least hamper it into an insurmountable losing position. That's great, but the problem is good veil teams account for this, and the absolute best partner to veil atm is slurpuff. Slurpuff is a monster, but especially under veil. It makes a complete joke out of revenging the dark type with a scarfer. Passimian is very arguably our most prominent scarfer within the tier, yet this combo entirely invalidates it and pretty much renders it a liability. Gunk shot variants (rare atm since slide is still largely utilized for zard) fair slightly better since they offer a 30% chance to 2hko puff behind screens, but even then it does pitiful damage to just about any other setup mon. Scarf indeedee is likely the other most prominent scarfer. It's more or less the same scenario. You gleam or psychic, and either way you're opening yourself up to various forms of setup. Croak suffers the same fate as passimian, though obviously has relevant stab more present. Salazzle provides a rare relief as a scarfer, even if only for puff, but a noteworthy supermajority are currently running boots because hazardblocking far outweighs running into a random slurpuff. And even then, it hardly does much vs most of the other threats you'd find behind veil. This isn't even to speak of the possibility of substituting puff for linoone, but we'll get to that later. There's also a ton of other flavor fillers you can use, and they obviously can have their own perks to come in handy. ie weezing might be one of the best counters to physical puff+silvally dark on cheese, but still has a hard time vs the often present psychic, or other special threat. Vanilluxe is likely the best setter for veil at the moment, specifically with this set imo. This speed tier allows it to taunt a variety of support mons, and still hits decently hard vs most of the meta with blizzard. Explosion allows you to quickly get in a setup mon with maximum veil turns still available. Earlier I mentioned that the previous reasons given for banning veil back in the day are only magnified now. Another example of this is removal, more specifically the tools available to veil to deal with said removal. Xatu is becoming a common staple on veil teams, because it's able to annoy so many defoggers by bouncing the defog, thus keeping the veil up. Charizard, defensive silvally-steel (the defog set), gurdurr, and really most silvally support forms get walled by xatu, especially behind screens. The only defogging threats to it (with veil up) are mons like silvally-dark and rotom. This is conveniently alleviated in gen 8 w/ the addition of teleport, allowing you to tank damage (and block defog) behind veil yet still get momentum, likely at the cost of moderate damage. You are then fully free to go into a sweeper of choice and get to work. For example, teleporting w/ xatu behind veil vs defog from a silvally-dark allows you a free switch into scrafty/slurpuff. Obviously in-game it's more nuanced than this, but it's overall a very feasible scenario and interchangeable w/ many mons. Truth be told, Vanilluxe / xatu / linoone or slurpuff / filler / filler / filler is a very solid formula. It doesn't lose to much, and most of the stuff that gives the most trouble is fairly niche. The same stuff that blocks slurpuff DEFINITELY doesn't block linoone for the most part, either. I think now is a fine to go into the differences between the two of them.

I'll talk about linoone first. I think this will be the easier of the two passages, considering it has less going on. Linoone pretty much does one thing well, as it did in gen 7 before being banned. It finds an opening, ideally behind screens but not necessarily, and then belly drums and cycles between e-speed and filler moves. This meta is really not a giant change to that formula. Jolly +6 linoone has the capability to ohko most of the top mons viable within our meta. Behind screens it would 2hko max defensive lix, even as a jolly variant. Roar lix would avoid this, but nonetheless that's hardly considered viable. Lix suffers 4mss more than most mons in this meta. Rhydon suffers the same fate. Rotom and jellicent drop to either filler move (throat chop.) Bewear does well to eat the usual fillers, though your opponent could be prickly and be running gunk shot/play rough. Max def vileplume eats one of anything not named double edge. Though frankly, most people are running speedier variants to help vs other parts of the meta. I would call this one of the most standard physdef sets around atm, and the calc isn't all that friendly. Keep in mind this is all using Jolly calcs. I highly recommend jolly as it allows you to outspeed stuff like silvally forms, specs indee, rotom, etc. You can use less speed if you feel like you only want to outspeed stuff in the lower 300s, instead of the 317 benchmark. You pretty much get the idea at this point, though. Big scary raccoon hits hard, sets up well behind light blue screen. Not much walls it, and really only something like sableye renders it useless. That being said, I do think it would be more manageable without veil. Scarf indee existing helps a ton w/ psychic surge being such a blockade. If indee was voted out, I'd have to consider further if I felt linoone was unhealthy at this time. But without veil, it obviously cant have the advantage of setting up on pretty much everything, or the leeway to 2hko some of the strong mons it needs. It remains to be seen whether it'd be silly without veil in the future, but with veil it definitely can be. Now let's take a look at something a little more intricate in slurpuff.

Slurpuff at first looks to parallel linoone in simple ways. It setups on a lot of stuff with belly drum, it goes fast, it hits hard. What I said above is more or less true here as well. What's cool this gen is that puff very easily gets away with running adamant, specifically 244 speed EVs. This allows you to outspeed just about every scarfer we have in the entire metagame post drum, save for rapidash-galar & salazzle, the latter of which isn't even listed as a potential scarfer on the role compendium due to how insanely good boots is lol. Rapidash-galar meanwhile has a 28% of 2hkoing this slurpuff set w/ zen, provided you hit both times. adamant puff with 244 speed outspeeds scarf jolly toge by one point, and that covers pretty much every other available scarfer I haven't mentioned. It also allows you to put 12 EVs in hp, which is kinda cool since lowers the 2hko rate of gunk shot passimian quite a bit behind veil. Rhydon can eat one drain punch but slurpuff recovers way too much for eq to even have a chance to kill, let alone behind veil. If you really wanted to deal with weezing/vileplume, you could always just run giga impact and potentially live whatever comes in next. If you don't, there's always the next setup sweeper. But there are some mons that are not particularly bothered by physical slurpuff, since it no longer has access to return. These mostly include our walls that deal with both fairy and fighting, such as vileplume weezing and escavalier. However, this gen has brought out a 2nd very viable slurpuff sweeper. That would be special slurpuff. It can run modest per the rule above, and simply cm up behind a veil for more or less free. It has access to psychic, flamethrower, energy ball, surf, gleam, draining kiss, tbolt, etc. It has pretty much any special move you could ask for, provided you're not looking for stuff base 100. It has access to thunder too, though I haven't checked to see if that'd be particularly useful for anything yet. I'm not going to get insanely into the calcs, but they're as you'd expect. Modest slurpuff pretty much terminates weezing w/ psychic. It does a very large amount of damage to plume, certainly enough to win behind veil. Flamethrower handles escav, etc. I think the point is fairly made at this point, though it has some other cool availabilites. I've been experimenting with charm as a filler for BD slurpuff, and it isn't terrible. As I mentioned at the start, I think it's completely bonkers even without veil. Tricking had a very potent team w/ puff lacking veil near the end of CPL. Others exist as well. It still sets up on quite a bit w/o veil, and can take advantage of the general meta very easily. General screens+slurpuff+adequate teammates is still a nightmare for plenty of otherwise viable teams on preview. Like veil, I don't think removing slurpuff takes anything away from our established metagame. MAYBE scarf passimian gets a hair better, but that's honestly a stretch. We already have plenty for it.

I think that about covers it. I could probably think of more stuff but this post is kinda a cluttered collection of thoughts already. I just wanted to get the ideas out there. I've spent part of the day talking to a majority of the council, and everyone I talked to either supported some sort of ban (majority) or is interested about the idea of it (minority.) Ideally veil/slurpuff goes to a council vote/suspect test. There were to my knowledge zero complaints when we removed veil before. It completely demonized RU Open, and I'd imagine most of us would wish for that not to happen again. Taking action before a major tournament, or at least attempting to, would be the ideal tiering approach.

 

[Mavis]

I went on a long road trip across the country for past few weeks, and I made many new friends. Along the way, I preached the gospels of whatever walls of text it was that Nat posted. Even at the end of my journeys, I still could not comprehend her incredible wisdom and sheer prowess with the English language, scripting itself into a deep yet insightful analysis of the current state of RU.

that being said I will now attempt to throw my three cents into the pool and stir up some discussion surrounding the metagame right now because nobody else except based Nat seems to be doing it. as a counterpart to nat's veil-focused discussion, I will instead be focusing on another slightly less controversial but still very much disliked aspect of rarelyused: our resident fire-types.


It really shouldn't be anything close to a secret that 95% of RU teams nowadays come with one of these three Pokemon attached to them. The addition of Timbs removed the single biggest issue of Fire-types for four straight generations, that being their inability to set foot onto the battlefield without watching where they put their feet. Every team needs dedicated Fire checks, and while many manage this with the blanket nature of Snorlax, a lot of teams just can't fit the fat bastard. Rhydon, Mudsdale, Gastrodon, Jellicent all can work to certain extents, while Mudsdale isn't exactly Fire-weak, it can OHKO all three. The way teams are structured right now lends itself to a certain vulnerability- Fire-types have always been excellent offensively, but have traditionally been held back because the Almighty Rocks of Death ate them for breakfast. Teams that rely on Steelix as their rocker can't fend off a single one of these Fire-types, and those that rely on Rhydon fall victim to Godtales. All three of these carry Toxic besides sun-team variants of Charizard, further nullifying any switchin not named Snorlax. Let's take a look at some RUPL usage stats provided by my good friend Expulso to see their rise to power.

Charizard

Week 1: | 19 | Charizard | 2 | 6.25% | 50.00% |
Week 2: | 12 | Charizard | 5 | 15.62% | 80.00% |
Week 3: | 13 | Charizard | 6 | 18.75% | 66.67% |
Week 4: | 5 | Charizard | 9 | 28.12% | 66.67% |
Cumulative: | 13 | Charizard | 14 | 14.58% | 71.43% |

Salazzle

Week 1: | 7 | Salazzle | 10 | 31.25% | 50.00% |
Week 2: | 6 | Salazzle | 10 | 31.25% | 40.00% |
Week 3: | 3 | Salazzle | 13 | 40.62% | 38.46% |
Week 4: | 10 | Salazzle | 7 | 21.88% | 28.57% |
Cumulative: | 5 | Salazzle | 33 | 34.38% | 39.39% | this thing is broken how did more than half of you lose with it

Ninetales

Week 1: | 13 | Ninetales | 3 | 9.38% | 33.33% |
Week 2: | 16 | Ninetales | 3 | 9.38% | 33.33% |
Week 3: | 29 | Ninetales | 1 | 3.12% | 0.00% |
Week 4: MIA
Cumulative: | 22 | Ninetales | 7 | 7.29% | 28.57% |

We can look at this data and extract a number of lessons from it. First and foremost, Salazzle has been utterly dominant, as it's the fifth most used Pokemon overall. Charizard was a bit of a late bloomer, but as its capabilities as a Ground-immune offensive defogger came to be realized, it came into its own, now boasting high usage across the board. Last but not least, you all suck ass at using Ninetales. This thing is broken holy shit. However, if we look at the entire context of the meta, especially at the cumulative usage stats, it becomes apparent as to why these three are so good. The top 10 in RUPL usage, excluding Mantine and Silvally, are the following Pokemon: Indeedee, Steelix, Vileplume, Salazzle, Passimian, Rhydon, Mudsdale, Snorlax, Rotom, and Rillaboom. Only three of these ten are able to stand up to the tier's Fire-types in any way. and all but Snorlax gets eviscerated by Ninetales. Mudsdale and Rhydon are merely a well-placed Toxic away from soon being rendered unable to check them. Mudsdale really can't comfortably take Fire Blasts as is, leaving the amount of highly used Pokemon that check Fire-types being incredibly narrow.



In terms of how they operate in battle, you can roughly place Salazzle and Charizard into one category, and Ninetales into another. Salazzle and Charizard are checked by the more "traditional" Fire-type answers, those being the Rock-types and Water-types, namely Jellicent, Gastrodon, Dongossal, and of course, Snorlax. However, checking Ninetales is entirely different due to its Drought as well as Solarbeam access. Many teams don't really pack Ninetales "switchins", per se, instead electing to maintain offensive pressure with a handful of Pokemon that can take a single hit and then return fire with a powerful hit. Obviously Snorlax is a hard counter, but you can't exactly fit that on every single team without some concessions. Therefore, checking Ninetales usually involves prediction games, I.E. going into your Gastrodon to bait out a Solarbeam for your Passimian to comfortably switch in on, then force the opposing Ninetales out. Checking Salazzle and Charizard is much easier, as usually you're one Rhydon switch away from blanking them, barring Toxic. This raises the question, then: if Ninetales is so much harder to check, why isn't it used more?



The answer to this lies in Ninetales' relative lack of defensive use outside of being a simple offense machine. It can't threaten opposing walls with a guaranteed Toxic the same way Salazzle can, or outspeed Alolan Raichu or Virizion to kill them before they can take it out. Charizard makes up for having neither the blistering speed of Salazzle or the Drought of Ninetales with two crucial things: Defog and a Ground immunity. Instead of dying to the first Earthquake thrown its way, Charizard flies above them with impunity, and can use its immunity to Defog consistently, as well as being able to Toxic its switchins, namely Rhydon. Ninetales is purely an offensive machine with no defensive utility outside of Drought. Charizard's presence can sometimes force Passimian to run the otherwise-inferior-to-earthquake Rock Slide, which hilariously misses the OHKO on Salazzle by less than 1%, and doesn't even come close to OHKOing Ninetales. Rillaboom can't even learn Rock Slide, but then again, you're using a Rillaboom to check these Pokemon anyways, so who's really losing here? Techs have developed to handle the three Fire-types, most notably the sideline presence of Occa Berry Copperajah, as well as Snorlax becoming much more mainstream, as it's the only surefire answer to all three.



So, what does this all mean? stop using plume For the most part, every team needs a Fire-type stopgap as well as a way to revenge kill them. Centiskorch was banned in the last round of voting, which makes this a little bit easier, but these Pokemon are still incredibly dangerous and can fit on an exceedingly wide variety of teams. If anyone has teams that utilize Fire-types well they'd like to share as well as give their thoughts on, I'd love to see some more discussion regarding these Pokemon. Seeing the flames of battle alight after a relatively Fire-lacking USM RU is both relieving and terrifying, and if something as previously laughed at as Charizard can find RU success with the addition of Boots, it makes me wonder what else has the potential to do the same.

 

[King Roma]

I went on a long road trip across the country for past few weeks, and I made many new friends. Along the way, I preached the gospels of whatever walls of text it was that Nat posted. Even at the end of my journeys, I still could not comprehend her incredible wisdom and sheer prowess with the English language, scripting itself into a deep yet insightful analysis of the current state of RU.

that being said I will now attempt to throw my three cents into the pool and stir up some discussion surrounding the metagame right now because nobody else except based Nat seems to be doing it. as a counterpart to nat's veil-focused discussion, I will instead be focusing on another slightly less controversial but still very much disliked aspect of rarelyused: our resident fire-types.


It really shouldn't be anything close to a secret that 95% of RU teams nowadays come with one of these three Pokemon attached to them. The addition of Timbs removed the single biggest issue of Fire-types for four straight generations, that being their inability to set foot onto the battlefield without watching where they put their feet. Every team needs dedicated Fire checks, and while many manage this with the blanket nature of Snorlax, a lot of teams just can't fit the fat bastard. Rhydon, Mudsdale, Gastrodon, Jellicent all can work to certain extents, while Mudsdale isn't exactly Fire-weak, it can OHKO all three. The way teams are structured right now lends itself to a certain vulnerability- Fire-types have always been excellent offensively, but have traditionally been held back because the Almighty Rocks of Death ate them for breakfast. Teams that rely on Steelix as their rocker can't fend off a single one of these Fire-types, and those that rely on Rhydon fall victim to Godtales. All three of these carry Toxic besides sun-team variants of Charizard, further nullifying any switchin not named Snorlax. Let's take a look at some RUPL usage stats provided by my good friend Expulso to see their rise to power.

Charizard

Week 1: | 19 | Charizard | 2 | 6.25% | 50.00% |
Week 2: | 12 | Charizard | 5 | 15.62% | 80.00% |
Week 3: | 13 | Charizard | 6 | 18.75% | 66.67% |
Week 4: | 5 | Charizard | 9 | 28.12% | 66.67% |
Cumulative: | 13 | Charizard | 14 | 14.58% | 71.43% |

Salazzle

Week 1: | 7 | Salazzle | 10 | 31.25% | 50.00% |
Week 2: | 6 | Salazzle | 10 | 31.25% | 40.00% |
Week 3: | 3 | Salazzle | 13 | 40.62% | 38.46% |
Week 4: | 10 | Salazzle | 7 | 21.88% | 28.57% |
Cumulative: | 5 | Salazzle | 33 | 34.38% | 39.39% | this thing is broken how did more than half of you lose with it

Ninetales

Week 1: | 13 | Ninetales | 3 | 9.38% | 33.33% |
Week 2: | 16 | Ninetales | 3 | 9.38% | 33.33% |
Week 3: | 29 | Ninetales | 1 | 3.12% | 0.00% |
Week 4: MIA
Cumulative: | 22 | Ninetales | 7 | 7.29% | 28.57% |

We can look at this data and extract a number of lessons from it. First and foremost, Salazzle has been utterly dominant, as it's the fifth most used Pokemon overall. Charizard was a bit of a late bloomer, but as its capabilities as a Ground-immune offensive defogger came to be realized, it came into its own, now boasting high usage across the board. Last but not least, you all suck ass at using Ninetales. This thing is broken holy shit. However, if we look at the entire context of the meta, especially at the cumulative usage stats, it becomes apparent as to why these three are so good. The top 10 in RUPL usage, excluding Mantine and Silvally, are the following Pokemon: Indeedee, Steelix, Vileplume, Salazzle, Passimian, Rhydon, Mudsdale, Snorlax, Rotom, and Rillaboom. Only three of these ten are able to stand up to the tier's Fire-types in any way. and all but Snorlax gets eviscerated by Ninetales. Mudsdale and Rhydon are merely a well-placed Toxic away from soon being rendered unable to check them. Mudsdale really can't comfortably take Fire Blasts as is, leaving the amount of highly used Pokemon that check Fire-types being incredibly narrow.



In terms of how they operate in battle, you can roughly place Salazzle and Charizard into one category, and Ninetales into another. Salazzle and Charizard are checked by the more "traditional" Fire-type answers, those being the Rock-types and Water-types, namely Jellicent, Gastrodon, Dongossal, and of course, Snorlax. However, checking Ninetales is entirely different due to its Drought as well as Solarbeam access. Many teams don't really pack Ninetales "switchins", per se, instead electing to maintain offensive pressure with a handful of Pokemon that can take a single hit and then return fire with a powerful hit. Obviously Snorlax is a hard counter, but you can't exactly fit that on every single team without some concessions. Therefore, checking Ninetales usually involves prediction games, I.E. going into your Gastrodon to bait out a Solarbeam for your Passimian to comfortably switch in on, then force the opposing Ninetales out. Checking Salazzle and Charizard is much easier, as usually you're one Rhydon switch away from blanking them, barring Toxic. This raises the question, then: if Ninetales is so much harder to check, why isn't it used more?



The answer to this lies in Ninetales' relative lack of defensive use outside of being a simple offense machine. It can't threaten opposing walls with a guaranteed Toxic the same way Salazzle can, or outspeed Alolan Raichu or Virizion to kill them before they can take it out. Charizard makes up for having neither the blistering speed of Salazzle or the Drought of Ninetales with two crucial things: Defog and a Ground immunity. Instead of dying to the first Earthquake thrown its way, Charizard flies above them with impunity, and can use its immunity to Defog consistently, as well as being able to Toxic its switchins, namely Rhydon. Ninetales is purely an offensive machine with no defensive utility outside of Drought. Charizard's presence can sometimes force Passimian to run the otherwise-inferior-to-earthquake Rock Slide, which hilariously misses the OHKO on Salazzle by less than 1%, and doesn't even come close to OHKOing Ninetales. Rillaboom can't even learn Rock Slide, but then again, you're using a Rillaboom to check these Pokemon anyways, so who's really losing here? Techs have developed to handle the three Fire-types, most notably the sideline presence of Occa Berry Copperajah, as well as Snorlax becoming much more mainstream, as it's the only surefire answer to all three.



So, what does this all mean? stop using plume For the most part, every team needs a Fire-type stopgap as well as a way to revenge kill them. Centiskorch was banned in the last round of voting, which makes this a little bit easier, but these Pokemon are still incredibly dangerous and can fit on an exceedingly wide variety of teams. If anyone has teams that utilize Fire-types well they'd like to share as well as give their thoughts on, I'd love to see some more discussion regarding these Pokemon. Seeing the flames of battle alight after a relatively Fire-lacking USM RU is both relieving and terrifying, and if something as previously laughed at as Charizard can find RU success with the addition of Boots, it makes me wonder what else has the potential to do the same.

Haha Steam Power Coalossal go zoom

On a serious note, funny you didn't even mention all fire type's greatest counter, sure, it's not the most used mon, but with 2 incredible niches as a stealth rocker, if fire types get played more, coalossal will also be played more

 

[KW]

i'd like to share some thoughts on the metagame

i am personally finding it distasteful. while there are certainty standout mons in the current metagame (Indeedee, Salazzle, etc...), i find as a whole that there are many potent offensive threats, all of which are good and viable use choices. on the other hand, the tier is shockingly lacking in glue mons, or anything that enables forming balanced and defensive cores. that is not to say that zero of these mons exist, for example Xatu and Vileplume both come to mind, but moreso that they are so overwhelmed by the clusterfuck bus full of random breakers and other mediocre to strong offensive choices that they generally only work on offensively oriented balances by forestalling specific threats. the lack of a discernible hierarchy amongst the pokemon in the tier disregarding a few standout mons is something i find makes it hard to reliably build. there is no meta to anticipate or adapt to, so builds become an assortment of solid pokemon which do well together, but can not achieve consistent results verus different variations of the same principle. at this time, i do not think mechanics like Aurora Veil need to be the focus, even if they might ultimately be problematic for the tier, but a process through which the meta game can stabilize.

how might we accomplish this? I have no idea. If anyone else does I'd love to hear it.

anyway after having played the metagame long enough to form justifiable opinions i have developed takes on several particular pokemon. for one, i think Salazzle is absurd, as corrosion is problematic even for teams that are mindful in the builder and the ability of heavy-duty-boots to indefinitely extend Salazzle's maneuverability allows it to continue exerting pressure in ways it was not formerly able to. i find Raichu-A to be underwhelming, as while it has theoretically perfect coverage, it is lacking in power to the degree it often misses out on KO's and 2HKO's, and its fraility makes getting it in reliably and counting on it to break a liability. Indeedee is borderline for me, as I find that it often is very threatening when it is not obviously scarfed, which can force mindgames. while the metagame has adapted to it, i wouldn't mind seeing a ban on it, if for no other reason than to help the state of the metagame as a whole.

in the short to mid term, i see this metagame centering around volt-turn (possibly w/ spike stack) strategies which are largely agnostic to the actually breakers/sweepers they employ. in particular, i think the variability in pokemon choice so far this gen highlights the structural foundations players while use to compose teams, rather than choices in pokemon varying among symmetric archetypes. i have no idea what the shape of the meta is long term, though i do hope its guise is less amorphous than it is at present.

anyway, i wasn't going to post, but i ended up playing enough that i figured I'd share some of my thoughts. i'm sure others think differently. looking forward to seeing how things end up as this meta is increasingly adapted into tournament play. ciao

 

[Nat]

Hello, RU. I decided to put myself through a fun little self-project in order to see if it influenced my view of the metagame, and it definitely did! This project was laddering 100 games, and seeing what I learned about the current state of RU in the process. I'm going to use this post to detail views, specifically about various mons & aspects of the metagame, I developed over this past week. Even though I (shocker) got a little tilted at times, it was overall a fun experience, and went better than ultimately expected. To give some insight into what I used, I used stall (lol) until ~1400, then a modest assortment of Bal/Bo after that. I'll use my usual hide tags to keep it less eye-gouging.

Ending Record

it's kinda hard to gain elo towards the end since there's only...like 60 people 300 or less elo behind. I got unlucky in a few losses, but I also definitely got lucky in a few wins. It's to be expected 100 games deep.

Indeedee

I'm gonna come right out and say this mon is probably the best within our meta, imo. I still don't think it's broken but it has something for everything. I'd actually say specs is better than scarf. Non-choiced sets can be really lethal if they're relying on escav predicts or something similar. I think with how much lax is running around, you absolutely value something like shock on specs sets, and prolly wanna forego trick for the double stab/fire/fairy. The good and bad news is that like, you can often disguise what set it is by pairing it w/ stuff like passimian/rillaboom/croak/rotom etc. The bad part of that is as soon as you click an attack once your team is likely revealed save for weird techs. But yeah, definitely the top mon rn imo.

Steelix

I'm gonna go ahead and shock everyone now. I think lix is the 2nd best mon in the meta, if I had to make a list. It's so damn ridiculously good. It has a great assortment of coverage in eq/head smash/body press/slam. I actually think slam is easily the worst of the moves it can use rn. Rocks/Tox should be all but mandatory, and then some combination of the 3 remaining good moves. If I had it my way I'd honestly drop eq and recommend running bpress+head smash. It hits just about everything you need and bpress is very silly. You could drop tox/head smash and go iron defense which makes it even sillier. It sits vs a lot of the meta and just has great utility/offensive output/typing. Lix owns, use it more!

Salazzle

I put salazzle 'up there' but I still don't quite get the big deal about it. We have a lot of capable counters. Tox corrosion is annoying like sure but it usually isn't the end of the world. You often have to make a predict to get a tox off on a likely counter, anyway. 1 thing I have changed is my view on NP, which definitely isn't viable atm. Knock seems to be a popular option but I think something like tect could be even better. Overall I don't think it's near banworthy, though. I'm glad council made the call that they did.

Silvallys

My view on Silv's changed dramatically through this experience. I originally had thought dark was the best type, and now i'd put it at 3rd or 4th. Steel and Fairy occupy the top two to me. I think offensive is better than support for both but i get the need to flex it as a defog set at times. The lack of needing to run psychic fangs like silv-dark does is absolutely huge. In contention for 3rd best vally imo is ghost, though this is mostly on non-veil offense. I don't consider it extremely viable elsewhere, though it probably can have some niche on bo/bal. Dark is overall better stab i think than ghost, though. We have a lot of potent normal types.

SabLax

I don't think it'd be accurate to say this is an underrated core but it's definitely one of the most potent and unique available to us. Encore is ridiculously useful, and lax is more viable than ever. I also would add I think sleep talk lax is completely unviable, unless you're the rare non-curse set. Bslam/lariat is obviously great. I've seen combinations of heat crash and eq mixed in, which is cool. I think band is largely unviable atm. For sab, tox is actually super useful this gen. I'd argue it's better than wisp sets since most stuff you cant tox you can easily get an encore on. There's almost nothing worth wisping since hardly anything physical can OHKO you. Silvally-fairy sticks out as the main one.

Veil ft. Duraludon

I still think veil is stupid and should be removed. If it was put to task, it'd definitely get removed. There's a decent amount of it running around on ladder. If we lose tales/drought in the future that's one of our most accessible counters down the drain. I think it's something that'll be better in tourplay than general games. Also, I see people running veil+slurpuff+linoone still. This is extremely poor and not viable. If you're doing this stop rn. They legit offer no synergy. You're better off dropping linoone for a better option. That being said, I don't think puff on its own should be banned anymore.

This one point is purely speculation but I feel it comes from an educated place. If we get duraludon in the coming days, which is entirely plausible, it would definitely be an insane addition to veil. Veil lacks A) a good offensive rocker and B) a general rock resist, save for the offhand virizion. It's pretty much drampa except better typing, faster, and has rocks. I'd hope we ban it alongside veil.

Coalossal

I know some people hate on this but it's so damn good. Spikes+spin support+useful defensive typing lends itself a viable spot within our tier imo. While I don't particularly care for VR anymore, it deserves a B imo. Lazzle+tales counter that isn't lax. It also manages decently well vs plume. I know some prefer flame body but I prefer steam engine for those rare times late game where +6 would actually help you. I don't feel like it takes a ton of physical hits, save for some fighters.

Cladyol

In a similar, overlooked vein as coalossal, I think claydol does a ton of good things rn. Xatu is one of the pesky forms of hazard blocking in the meta, but an underspeeding teleport to a mon that can't usually touch you is great. I think this works best with godly breakers like drampa. Walling most lix sets is a useful bonus, too. I'm still unsure of how I feel about spin. I feel like it values the 2 stabs+teleport quite a bit. It has enough spdef to comfortably eat most things you think it wouldn't, like lazzle or what have you.

Copperajah

I actually think copper is worse than most of the playerbase probably thinks rn. It doesn't do anything extremely well and gets dumpstered by a lot of the top mons. I guess using it as some defensive glue piece with a berry or AV works, but otherwise it's not the best at anything. It looks gigantic but I feel like it dies to everything. Steel is obviously a good type generally but not in a meta where pretty much all of our top mons handle pure steels. So yeah. Copper is ok, no defining niche imo.

Rapidash-Galar ft. Virizion

This 1 prolly seems left field but i think this mon has a ton of viability. More or less the same situation as indee to a lesser degree in that it has coverage for almost anything. Being able to run special or phys is pretty unique. I think it should see more usage in the future, through a variety of sets. Viriz is another 1 of those that can dish it out phys and special. I'm almost starting to think specs is better than any physical variant, frankly. It blows past the usual counters of weezing and whatnot. Leaf storm no doubt it a giant reason for why this is the case. Lacking registeel will do it, too.

Closing

That's about it i think. There's some other cool tidbits I'd rather keep hidden to self-serve, but I felt like making some kinda insightful post. I really like where the meta is at and it's a shame that we're in a time where it'll shift often. Thanks for reading if you did xo.

 

[inc0gnito]

I'm really loving Plume at the moment, I think it belongs in the Top 3 mons at the moment. The physical attackers it walls are quite considerable (except Fire types) and it can even be a check to Bulk Up Scrafty by the sheer virtue of it's typing + Strength Sap. Pair this with something like Will-O-Wisp Jellicent and you have a mighty defense core that can take hits for days.

 

[Fusion Flare]

We lost:

We got:

 

[Feliburn]

Alright its been a while since I last posted but this one is such a hype tier shift so I couldnt contain myself.

Duraludon is sooo siiick. Finally an offensive rocker that can take some hits (mostly on the physical side). This mon sits at a nice base 85 speed tier so it's already faster than the majority of RU and it hits strong as hell due to 120 base special attack (10 base points highter than Goodra). Special Defense blows but other than that it has a solid typing with decent physical bulk for a mon with such speed and power.

I've been waiting for this mon to come back for SO LONG. To me Drapion is always the perfect utility mon (although without pursuit idk how to feel about that title), nonetheless it's a decent mon, decently bulky and is able to check threats such as Indeedee and Virizion, somehow every tier with Virizion forces Drap to use scarf but idk if that will be the case here.

Bro this mon is a demon, how did it end up here? Solid speed and sp attack, coupled with an alright coverage in Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Dark Pulse with the added U-Turn makes for such a scary breaker. Vaporeon dropping at the same time as Inteleon is a blessing cause it's a very solid counter to it, and recently Jellicent and Gastrodon have been rising in usage so maybe it's not as dumb as it looks. This mon is a danger.

Idk how to feel about Braviary, I think it's a solid mon, not sure what handles strong Brave Birds and CCs coming from it. A lot of people theorymonned Band as the strongest set but I feel like a mid breaker with HDB could be fun as hell too.

This mon seems crazy good as well. Thanks to NP this gen it's such a crazy breaker, it beats all of our rockers and has a very solid speed tier. I can see Sub NP sets going crazy, tho idk to what extent with Virizion and Vileplume in the tier.

The table, I suppose its alright? Definitely an annoying spinner and I suppose it's an added slot for potential stall teams. Maybe an Iron Defense Body Press team could be used in more balanced teams but I don't think it's gonna make major waves in the tier.

Vapos back, now in a meta with way more offensive threats. Not sure if it's gonna be as crazy good as it was when it was in the tier but definitely a staple. Virizion/Decidueye being in the tier makes it a bit more abusable but being able to pass fat wishes to the teammates is gonna be huge, something the tier was clearly missing for a while.

Esca leaving is p crazy, considering it wasn't that great in RU to begin with. It was a solid check to Raichu, Choice Locked Indeedee and Frosmoth but nothing the tier is gonna feel as a major hit compared to mantine or gigalith.

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

scummy voltturn core

Inteleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse

Rotom-Mow @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Leaf Storm
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt

Braviary (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Facade

These three seem to fit together really well. Inteleon is the main breaker here with specs, but Rotom handles the water immunities that would otherwise stop it (you could use another Grass type but idc). Meanwhile, Braviary handles common checks to the other two such as Virizion and Vileplume, and can also take advantage of Scarf to clean up late game. The icing on the cake is that all three form a VoltTurn core, so if one of them is stuck in a bad matchup it can just pivot to one of the other two. Bring a hazard remover though: pivoting and maintaining momentum are key to this core's success, so they're easily worn down by Stealth Rock (and in Inteleon's case, Spikes and Toxic Spikes).

 

[Loom]

Rises

Losing Escavalier is not too significant but it was a very good Pokemon while it was here. With the ability overcoat it was able to fully wall Vileplume due to powder moves being ineffective against it and its STABs doing minuscule damage. Escavalier was also a good answer to Pokemon like Snorlax if Choice Banded, Indeedee if locked into one of its Psychic STABs or Gleam, and Raichu.

Drops

I'm absolutely thrilled to have Vaporeon back in the tier. Vaporeon is able to act as a great answer to many physical and special attackers like Rhydon, Salazzle, Inteleon, Passiman, and Mudsdale. With home being released, Vaporeon now has access to Heal Bell and Toxic, which it didn't have in its previous stay.

set

Specially Defensive
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 192 SpD / 64 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Heal Bell / Ice Beam / Toxic
- Wish
- Protect

I've been waiting for this Pokemon to drop for a while. Drapion is able to act as a fantastic answer to Indeedee, one of the tier's most threatening special attackers. Drapion also has traits like being able to act as a Swords Dance sweeper, Choice Scarfer, or a Toxic Spike setter. Drapion also checks pokemon such as Xatu, Salazzle, and Raichu.

set

Toxic Spikes
Drapion @ Black Sludge
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 196 HP / 48 Def / 128 SpD / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab

• Outspeeds max speed base 80s
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Dazzling Gleam vs. 196 HP / 128 SpD : 122-144 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Swords Dance
Drapion @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Aqua Tail / Earthquake

Choice Scarf
Drapion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Earthquake / Aqua Tail
- Toxic Spikes

This mon is a super cool new toy to play with, having a ludicrously high special attack stat especially with the aid of Choice Specs lets duraludon force out / break a lot of mons. Due to the way it forces switches Duraludon can also get away with using an offensive stealth rock set. Choice Scarf is also a very viable set thanks to Duraludon's decent speed.

set

Choice Specs
Duraludon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Steel Beam

Stealth Rock
Duraludon @ Life Orb / Shuca Berry
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Stealth Rock

Choice Scarf
Duraludon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Steel Beam

Rotom-Mow is a very cool addition to the tier, being an offensive defogger that's able to dispatch a lot of the hazard setters we have in the tier such as Rhydon and Mudsdale. Rotom-Mow also has amazing coverage and a multitude of sets it can run such as Scarf, Specs, Nasty Plot, and the aforementioned Defog.

set

Nasty Plot
Rotom-Mow @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Leaf Storm
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch / Stored Power / Substitute

Choice Scarf
Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Volt Switch
- Trick / Will-O-Wisp
- Thunderbolt

Choice Specs
Rotom-Mow @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Leaf Storm
- Volt Switch
- Trick / Defog

I heard rumors about this Pokemon dropping and I was pretty skeptical of whether it would be busted or balanced. Its best set is definitely Bulk Up with Heavy Duty Boots but sets like Choice Band and Choice Scarf are serviceable too. After testing it for a bit it doesn't really seem to be overbearing being handled by faster revenge killers like Raichu and Rotom.

set

Bulk Up
Braviary (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Atk / 28 SpD / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Close Combat

• Outspeeds Jolly max speed Bewear by 2 points
• +1 136 Atk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def : 188-222 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Choice Scarf
Braviary (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Defog / Facade
- U-turn

Choice Band
Braviary (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Facade
- Close Combat
- U-turn

Inteleon seems to be a very potent special attacker with moves like Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, and Ice Beam under its arsenal backed up by a strong base 125 Special Attack. Inteleon is also extremely fast letting it outrun a decent chunk of the unboosted metagame. Its best set is most definitely specs and I can't really think of any alternatives that can provide the amount of viability it does.

set

Choice Specs
Inteleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Cannon
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn

Pretty cool Rapid Spinner, able to sit on alot of physically offensive pokemon including the new Braviary. Not really much else to say besides that, body press is really good but i prefer earthquake and avalanche due to being able to hit lazzle.

set

Rapid Spin
Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Avalanche
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Earthquake / Body Press

I only have one good team from these drops but here it is

 

[missangelic]

Bad meme

On a more serious note, most of these drops will definitely shake up the RU tier.
Funnily enough, I do not see actually making that much of an impact. While Heavy-Duty Boots and Dexit gave it direct and relative buffs respectively, it's such a momentum drain as a Pokemon. Avalugg tends to invite in special wallbreakers and fire types, which RU is currently swimming in at the moment. Having to pick between toxic, avalanche, body press, and earthquake for its last two slots makes it more of a liability given how popular Salazzle, Jellicent, Charizard, Coalossal, and Rotom tend to be, and the list goes on.

worse meme

Conversely, I do see making some waves in RU now that it's back and better than ever. It's still going to do Vaporeon things with Wish and Protect, but now it has the luxury of running Toxic and Heal Bell alongside Scald, though choosing which one to run does strain it a bit. Balance and Stall will definitely welcome its glorious return moreso than Avalugg's arrrival. While Gigalith might be gone, Vaporeon forms some great defensive cores with Steelix, Rhydon, Vileplume, and Mudsdale.

I have less to say about some of the other drops. and are both newer special attackers which could be potentially a bit overwhelming depending on how they sink into the meta. Duraludon has a pretty good offensive typing which can take advantage of some good switches and beat other rockers with its exceptional power. Inteleon is much more of a terrifying fast breaker, but its frailty and somewhat limited sets might keep it in check a bit. will definitely make a big splash with all the sets and options it can run, between specs, scarf, NP, and more defensive options. is another great utility addition which will help curb the dominance of Indeedee and Salazzle while giving Balance builds a cool new option for absorbing/setting T-Spikes and using Knock Off. is a little less clear, as it can run pretty good Banded and Scarfed sets as well as being a pretty potent Bulk Up sweeper, but it might be a bit neutered with the popularity of electric types such as the Rotoms, Alolan Raichu, Vikavolt, and Boltund.

Echoing the sentiment of some others, I don't think will be missed all that much. While it was a pretty powerful option that helped check some special attackers, the prevalence of so many fire and ground types made it not the best fit most of the time. Hopefully the meta will be kinder to it if(/when) it returns.

 

[viol and bass]

Duraludon @ Dragon Fang
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Metal Sound
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock

Pretty sure Metal Sound hasn't been used since that memey MS-Dos Zapdos set in like gen 3 or whatever, but I think it's solid on Duraludon for a couple reasons. Normally the move blows because you can just switch out to something else and tank the incoming hit. However, there's very little that walls Duraludon, so if you Metal Sound their Steelix on the switch-in, they're gonna have some trouble finding something else to tank the incoming Draco or Flash Cannon. Note that you do need a bit of chip to KO Steelix. Metal Sound is also nice specifically in combination with Draco because MS into Draco heavily outdamages using Draco twice. This set can sort of deal with Snorlax too I guess? Modest is fun but Timid is probably better.

Edit: shit, I just realized Steel Beam might be a thing to try

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

I was wondering, would Rock Head prevent the 50% max health removal from Steel Beam? Because if it did, Steel(beam)lix would have a pretty good asset at hand.

Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Steel Beam
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Curse

Heres the set if its true that Rock Head prevents the drawback from Steel Beam

 

[Fusion Flare]

I was wondering, would Rock Head prevent the 50% max health removal from Steel Beam? Because if it did, Steel(beam)lix would have a pretty good asset at hand.

Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Steel Beam
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Curse

Heres the set if its true that Rock Head prevents the drawback from Steel Beam

Sorry chief, Steel Beam bypasses recoil prevention abilities.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1113668358

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

Sorry chief, Steel Beam bypasses recoil prevention abilities.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1113668358

ok, thanks for the info , i seriously thought that would work to be honest

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

Oh by the way, ive heard that Salazzle is getting a lot of usage up in OU, so everyone, be prepared to say goodbye to your favorite RU pokemon!
I know im not gonna miss being toxic'ed no matter what by that lizard.

 

[atomicllamas]

But I wasn’t prepared to say goodbye to you :(

 

[phantom]

The council will be voting on the following in the next few days:



As soon as Inteleon dropped, it clearly established itself as one of strongest Pokemon in the tier. Its specs set sits at an incredible speed tier and has few switch-ins aside from defensive Water-types. Its ability to draw in its counters and pivot out with U-turn makes it even harder to manage and gives it the means to either wear down its own checks or forces them to switch out and lose momentum. While defensive-inclined teams are capable of holding it off, it strains offense significantly due to conventional offensive checks being non-existent. Inteleon’s ability to squander offense and force a shift to slower, bulkier teams has been deemed unhealthy for the tier.



Slurpuff has been in the tier since the beginning, but over time, has grown increasingly overwhelming. Slurpuff’s Belly Drum set often 6-0s entire teams that are lacking in one of its few specific checks. Calm Mind sets with Indeedee support pose similar sweeping capabilities, but completely destroy the few counters that deal with its Belly Drum set. Its ability to circumvent its own counters with two equally dangerous sets makes it difficult for many teams to prepare for. This issue is further compounded when given Veil support, where otherwise conventional counters no longer have the means to KO Slurpuff.

Voting will conclude sometime this sunday. Feel free to share your thoughts on the slate for the time being.

 

[banks]

Inteleon's raw power and ridiculous speed make it impossible to prep for without the inclusion of something like vapo and spd lax on your team. This type of influence is never productive or beneficial, especially in a time where tiers will undeniably be shaken up soon, being more liberal with bans is a good way forward.

Yes, Inteleon has switch-ins, but the fact that it outpaces basically all non-scarfed mons and has coverage (air slash, ice beam, dpulse) to deal with our best traditional water checks like viriz and plume, and u-turn to just pivot out against vapo into a wallbreaker — it's simply too much. Yes, it's frail, yes, it doesn't switch-in directly on much; but the abundance of easy voltturn mons and even just playing aggressively will absolutely ensure momentum, since if you're not killing or severely denting something, it's a free u-turn. Additionally, Toxicing stuff like spd gastro and vapo applies incredible pressure since vapo is inclined to alleviate that status asap, whereas gastro is permanently crippled unless there's a separate cleric. Atop of this, the mons that do revenge Inteleon are by no means unbeatable; we have plentiful ways of punishing / dealing with scarf pass; scarf drap is, inherently, not the most threatening mon; locked psychic from indeedee-f is easily punished given the right team. I could go on and on about all our scarfers but the point is —this meta is not suited for a mon like Inteleon, whereby the tier simply doesn't have the tools (bulky enough pokemon, good-enough revengers, reliable resistances) to maintain a healthy, enjoyable meta.


As for Slurpuff, I don't hold a strong opinion on it, but personal philosophy will likely determine how people view this mon; do we ban 'cause it's simply an utter annoyance? do we ban 'cause going out of our way to use, arguably, niche mons like scarf lazzle in order to secure a safer mu vs ho? Or, is it just genuinely just broken? — All plausible options, but, I am leaning toward the ban on this one. Slurpuffis by no means an isolated mon, meaning after you do kill this thing there's likely going to be other threats rearing to go, ready to take exploit any counters you have brought. Obviously, Aurora Veil-augmented bulk is an entirely another issue:

context

252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff with an ally's Aurora Veil: 177-208 (57.8 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
116 Atk Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff with an ally's Aurora Veil: 145-172 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO

I could list more, but the message is clear

To summarise:

• Ban Inteleon for its unmanageable power, premier speed-tier, advantageous coverage, and ability to pivot out in the rare case clicking u-turn outweighs attacking.
• Ban Slurpuff for being the primary offender of veil teams, making them extremely uncontrollable and demanding. Also, belly drum and calm mind are two very different sets that are good in their own right, further adding to the difficulty of prepping for this.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I'm still learning the tier, but feel like the best way to learn is through discourse, so here's my first big post in RU discussing this kind of thing. Feel free to break my kneecaps for being wrong. I'm probably just parroting banks, but hey, may as well.


Still wondering how this thing got here, but we're not here for that.

Before I get into the insanity that is Inteleon, lemme go over what makes it bearable in the format.

Vaporeon dropping at the same time was a blessing, with Water Absorb often making the Specs-using ones think twice about clicking the funny move Hydro Pump. There are other examples of Water-immune mons; Jellicent, Gastrodon, Toxicroak, etc. Some of these are used on teams already for being bulky waters, but you can tell that teambuilding is at least a bit strained. Even resisted hits from that Hydro Pump can deal some significant damage. Vileplume takes around 40%, Virizion is a near-guaranteed 3HKO. Naturally, it won't want to stay in once locked, just want to emphasize this thing is destructive with just one move. It should be mentioned that water immunities are not the only option to deal with it. There's also Snorlax, who takes 40% tops with max SpD, though switching in is a bit iffy there. I'm pretty sure there are others, but you get the picture.

Inteleon also has a bit of a hard time getting in, though the reward for getting it there is nuts. It usually requires a team to be built specifically to pull it off, with slow VolTurners or Teleport being decent ways to do it. This isn't too hard to facilitate with Pokemon like Sticky Web + Volt Switch Vikavolt essentially making it a win-con, but there are definitely wrong ways to use Inteleon. If you switch it in wrong it tends to just die, as it isn't the bulkiest Pokemon on the planet. Not to mention the natural inconsistency given by Hydro Pump: if it misses that could be dangerous. So overall, there is a degree of risk when using it.

However, the issue arises when you realize Hydro Pump isn't Inteleon's only button, unlike something like...OU Dracovish, I guess. It has fairly good coverage options available; Air Slash, Dark Pulse and Ice Beam are all pretty threatening and tend to mow down its usual checks. Air Slash dumpsters Virizion (OHKO), Toxicroak (OHKO) and the other grasses (2HKOs at worst). However, Ice Beam tends to be more consistent here across the board, especially for Rotom-Mow (2HKO). Even in a situation where all of Inteleon's coverage is not a good choice, as banks put out, U-Turn is often the 4th slot and it gains the team momentum.

So with the coverage in mind, Jellicent isn't a necessarily reliable example as a way to wall it, as Dark Pulse is often carried by Inteleon specifically for it. Usually, it's forced out once the Colbur Berry is burnt. Here are some calcs for you to use. It should be obvious, but hey, doesn't hurt to put stuff out.

Some Jellicent VS Dark Pulse Inteleon calcs

• 252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Jellicent: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 90.2% chance to 2HKO without Leftovers.
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Colbur Berry Jellicent: 89-105 (22 - 25.9%) -- 3.4% chance to 4HKO
  • Max SpD isn't actually run very often, to clarify. I'm mainly putting this here for scale.
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Colbur Berry Jellicent: 122-144 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- 33.1% chance to 3HKO
  • This uses the set on the Strategy Dex which I believe is run the most frequently, punch me if I'm wrong.
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • If they don't run Colbur it's probably this I guess. Without the Leftovers, it's still a guaranteed 2HKO.

Modest changes things up a bit but I don't believe that's run, so I'm not putting that here. Life Orb also does, but I have never seen it used either.

This leaves Gastrodon and Vaporeon as the main reliable ways to deal with its special attackers, with them being able to switch in safely and wall it out. This puts a bit of a restriction on the teambuilder. However, it can simply just U-Turn into a counter once you're in, which can be a pretty easy read to make when Specs Hydro Pump is the equivalent of holding a gun to your head. This puts in chip damage, allowing it to switch into counters and force you to into the poor positions. This thing can gain significant momentum for a team.

The thing that makes Inteleon really shine is the sheer speed it has; only RU mons that outspeed it unboosted are Boltund and Accelgor. However, there is definitely counterplay to it. Sticky Web can make it significantly more manageable, and Scarf users such as Braviary and Passimian can force it out after it's dropped something. While I definitely don't think it's healthy that revenge killing is something to balance it, it's a thing you can do. This also stops it simply U-Turning out of your switch-ins attempting to stop Hydro Pump.

Do I think Inteleon is broken? Well, it has counterplay, but if you don't specifically run it, it tends to run you down pretty quickly. It's definitely unhealthy, as this puts a good few restrictions on the teambuilder. That makes it overcentralising. I think the main thing that determines if it goes bye-bye is whether or not you think the counterplay is good outside the vacuum of stopping Inteleon from clicking the funny move and pressure washing your team off the face of the earth. I think the issue is that the tier isn't well-equipped to handle it, and once it's out without any real checks the game is usually over. There's definitely counterplay as I've put out, but you're forced to run it lest you be run down. I've definitely cheesed some games with this thing, and frankly, I wouldn't miss it if it was gone. God bless the fact it can't run HP Grass...

TL;DR:

• Inteleon does nutty damage that makes it extremely difficult to prepare for, to the extent it can win in team preview if they're ill-prepared.
• The coverage Inteleon has makes it definitely able to deal with its regular checks and counters, though Air Slash VS Ice Beam can change whether Pokemon such as Virizion can work. Regardless of what you pick, a wrong switch-in can lead to a check or counter being removed and just losing from there.
• The ability to U-Turn away from most of the threats that deal with it can turn otherwise poor situations into gained momentum, making it less likely you'll be able to get it out of your hair. It also makes switching in attempting to counter it more difficult, as it can read with U-Turn to force you into a bad situation as well. It's kind of a 50/50.
• Whoever runs Focus Energy -> Snipe Shot with this thing needs their head checked out.
• However, Inteleon has natural inconsistency by virtue of it being a bit frail. Hydro Pump also makes it a bit more inconsistent, but that's a small point.
• Inteleon's Hydro Pump can also be dealt with through the good amount of Water-immune Pokemon in the tier, such as Toxicroak, Jellicent, Vaporeon and Gastrodon. However, it can deal with a few of these.

Oh, and I don't really have an informed opinion on Slurpuff yet. If I do before the vote is all done, I'll come back with one

EDIT: Realized I worded the last paragraph poorly, pls be gentle

 

[sensei axew]

I don't want to repeat everything Banks and Plague Von Karma just said but I want to provide my own opinion on the slate.

Inteleon is an interesting character. On one hand, I think it's balanced because it does have switchins such as Snorlax, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, and Wishiwashi. But then I remember that there are NO other switchins to this thing. Other typical Water resists like Virizion, Vileplume, and Toxicroak all have an Air Slash or Ice Beam coming their way and none of them can survive two of them. Additionaly, the counters I aforementioned all get U-turned on and are also huge momentum drains bar Wishiwashi who does have pivoting capabilities. When it comes to revenge killing it, Bamls covered it to the crisp. Only two notable Pokemon can outspeed naturally, Accelgor and Boltund, and thus the only way Inteleon is revenge killed is through Choice Scarfers or priority. This tier has little to no priority due to Psychic Terrain being a terror and the top noch Choice Scarfers can all be pivoted around quite easily. So, with all of that being said, Inteleon is 100% unhealthy in the current meta and I definitely think that this water lizard thing should be banned.

Slurpuff HAS! TO! GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate this cupcake beyatch with a burning passion for so many reasons that this thread would be a full on MOUNT EVEREST when I'm done ranting about it. I can only really think of three things that can counter this Pokemon (PhysDef Charizard, Vileplume, and Weezing) and even then, under Aurora Veil all three of them cant even kill it, unless it's really low. It also can utilize a Calm Mind set that beats all three of them 1v1. But besides that, the cupcake literally clicks Belly Drum and then clicks Play Rough, Drain Punch, or Facade to sweep entire teams with ease. It's takes advantage of common Choice locked Pokemon like Scarf Passimian, Specs Drampa, or even Inteleon locked into Dark Pulse or Ice Beam and sets up on them. Additionally, it's also really noncompetitive and frankly I get really disheartened when I see it being used in a tournament game.

Conclusion:
- Ban both Inteleon and Slurpuff :)

 

[Umbra Soul]

I don't usually like doing long posts, but felt an adequate desire to help get some discussions going on new drops and some metagame trends. Wall of text so just gonna spoiler stuff so you can pick and choose what you wanna see my thoughts on.

- Inteleon

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This thing honestly is turning into a menace really. Fast, frail, with high levels of power, and there's almost nothing naturally outspeeding that's top line viable, meaning reliance on a scarfers or bulky answers is our best counter play. I'm mixed on this thing as it relies heavily on clicking and hitting Hydro Pump a lot much in the same vein of past generations RU threats like Moltres, where you click stab or click U-Turn, and you're only clicking the other options on an "as needed" basis. However, what I'm seeing is that there's a lot more diverse play with Inteleon, I didn't think LO would be as effective with several of the bulky mons we have and would just cause it to run out of HP, but it's solid enough to dominate balance builds. I've seen Endure + Petaya berry with Hydro/Surf, Ice Beam, and Dark Pulse which gives it more freedom to threaten balanced and offensive builds without worry about being choice locked. As far as countering it goes, we have Pokemon that generally have enough synergy that while we look at needing 2 to counter it on bulky/stallish builds, it can honestly happen so naturally it's doesn't seem to be a large issue. Gastro and Vaporeon do a great job, Jellicent forces Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball (good way to avoid the colbur hit and do more damage in 1 turn), Bulky Mowtom is a decent answer. Just by existing these mons usually force Inteleon into clicking U-Turn which kind of gives a comfort for opposing teams to stay in and just attack with their current Pokemon. Firmly leaning though that Inteleon is just too much of a pressure for more balanced and offensive teams as Phantom outlined though and it'd be better off banned.

-Duraludon

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I don't have much to say on this thing. It's a pretty balanced addition to the tier. It hits things hard, but can't take much of a hit. It's honestly a fantastic answer to Mowtom though as it quad resists Leaf Storm, and is capable of only taking moderate damage from special mons that prefer bulk investments over any attacking ones so it can threaten them with powerful Dracos, hit the bulky waters with Thunder (Yes I've seen this and really it can be frustrating) or Thunderbolt, all the while being a solid SR setter. I thought it was gonna be this mediocre as fuck mon, but it is capable of holding it's own weight.

- Drap

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Thank you for killing off Indeedee usage, thank you for giving us another bulky-ish poison type, thanks for giving us another powerful Knock Off spammer, thank you for giving us a versatile swiss army knife here. It's good to have Drapion back.

- Mowtom

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Honestly this is probably the best Pokemon in the meta IMO. Splashable and can do a bit of everything from typical choiced sets to being a bulky menace with new access to NP making sub sets a nightmare for slow teams, has the options to spread around burns, not in the highest speed tier so we have adequate offensive answers, limited movepool creates defensive counter play. The only thing is that Pain Split isn't really a reliable way for it to recover off damage, and even if it switches in on every bulky water the risk of Toxic or burn that whittles always exists meaning it relies heavily on getting the resisted hits/immunity or partners to stay fully healthy. However, this thing is so fantastic and I love having it around.

- Vappy

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I hate how it's near unkillable, but thank god it has 4MSS. It's nice having a solid wish passer around though that's not a disappointment like Aromatisse, or more niche choicing for a set like WishPort Xatu and Gallade.

- War Eagle

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Dunno how to feel about the eagle, I feel it's gonna come up as an issue eventually. Brave Bird honestly kills everything, and now that it has CC to kill steels and doesn't have to rely on Superpower means that it can effectively kill Steelix. It's speed tier is probably what's gonna keep it locked to choice sets for now as some mons that are just faster can get a jump on it when it's lacking the immediate power (if BU set) or speed. It's nice having bird be mostly relevant again though.

- Slurpuff

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Honestly, this should be more or less a precedent at this point. We don't have something like Doublade being omnipresent to kill off it's usage, we have about 3-4 mons that adequately live +6 Facade/Play Rough/Drain Punch being Steelix with anything under a quarter chip damage, vileplume, weezing who has to be kept in reserve as it can't recover well over the course of a game, and Bulky Charizard (You only need max HP investment to live a shot from any attack, but need to be at full HP). You have to consistently apply on pressure so it doesn't get a chance to properly set up, or build 6 mons that give it absolutely 0 chance to click belly drum. This is relatively difficult in the current meta as it can easily take advantage of multiple choice locked mons, some rely on moves that drop stats (Leaf Storm from Mowtom/Decide/Viri, Draco from the dragons usually they'll be choiced locked), some defensive Pokemon who have no power to threaten and rely hard on grabbing a status to mitigate it, but it still can wreck havoc. Puff honestly needs to go, there's just way too many times it can just force you to pick killing a defensive threat you have to muscle by which lets it set up or play passively, but will turn into playing a long game that players usually can't win as long as slurpuff remains in reserve.

- Scrafty

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Honestly, Scrafty is probably my favorite mon in the meta next to Mowtom. It has a lot of chances to get into the battle against defensive Pokemon thanks to Shed Skin BU sets. DD sets are pretty threatening against balance and offensive teams sadly it's a little slow still after 1 DD and only moderately can hurt fairy types unless you do about 30-40% of chip to most of them. Being one of the few dark types is a large boon for it as it can set up on Sableye, and it has a great match up against many slower set up mons. It's a great mon in general and recommend more people use our little favorite lizard here.

- Spook Haunt

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Just wanna throw some light on one of my more favorite niche picks in Haunter. Scarf Haunt has been putting in some work for me for a while now as it speed ties scarf DeeDee and outspeeds every other typical scarfer like Passimian, Rillaboom, Braviary, Mowtom, and being able to inflict big damage to mons that are naturally faster than it thanks to Scarf. Sure it needs help with chipping damage and can't really do much against some of the bulkier special walls beyond tricking them, but it acts as a nice buffer when I pair it with my buddy up above in Scrafty. Also Scarf gives me a soft answer to DD Scrafty too thanks to Dazzling Gleam. I've also used SubDisable (SubPain as well) and it surprises me how often I was able to take advantage of certain mons for free subs and then just kind of inflict some dents into teams. I'm looking forward to trying out more Specs or LO sets, but Haunter is a fun mon to use.

- Pilo

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Ditto to spotlighting Pilo like Haunter. Thick Fat is pretty amazing when a lot of teams are using sun, and you just live their Fire Blasts and then can revenge Ninetales with EQ as they tend to try to kill you or have no adequate switch in unless they wanna risk Icicle Crash to a grass type. Zard can also be put at risk thanks to forcing a need to click fire moves or risk roosting and taking an EQ. Pilo honestly has some nice power behind it, a lot more than people typically expect, being almost one of the only priority users in the tier is useful especially as Indeedee usage is dropping off, and it's a good SR setter too. I have some other ideas I wanna try out with the hairy beast, but Pilo is a fun mon to use just remember it's not tanky enough to actually switch into the fire mons, but can 1 on 1 them. Given it also forces Mowtom to click Leaf Storm is a nice thing as well when paired with something that loves setting up.

I honestly love and hate the meta as it is. There's a lot you can use, but there's a pretty large inconsistency for stability. You can outright lose to various mons for no real reason other than there being a lot of need to rely on one mon to check multiple (and I do mean a lot) of Pokemon and so they get too pressured.