Metagame NP: RU Stage 1 - I Lost Something in the Hills (Indeedee-M banned)

[Molk]

Personally i've been mainly theorycrafting this meta, watching matches, and building teams instead of actually playing it. But i just wanted to comment on Inteleon really quickly.

I think Inteleon needs to go. Its combination of amazing speed and a ludicrously strong Hydro Pump heavily restricts teambuilding for offensive teams, basically requiring them to run an immunity or some kind of extremely bulky water resist to not simply get mowed down by it on team preview. Most of the reliable answers to it tend to be very bulky defensive Pokemon such as Vaporeon and those Pokemon tend to simply not fit very well on aggressive teams due to the fact that they're massive momentum sinks, which is a big problem when the Inteleon user can see these Pokemon coming in from a mile away (since in a lot of cases it's the *only* way the opponent is going to be able to get through the turn without losing a Pokemon) and simply click U-turn to go into something that can take advantage of them (such as bringing in a Toxicroak to stare down Vaporeon knowing it's going to get a completely free turn). The "offensive" Inteleon checks here are basically limited to Virizion, Toxicroak, and Wishiwashi, and the only one of those three that doesn't get completely blown back by a coverage move is Wishiwashi, i guess you could run a Scarf Duraludon with some bulk investment to take any one move, outspeed and threaten the OHKO back, but i haven't really seen that yet from the matches i've watched.

When Inteleon first dropped i basically thought that whether or not it could stay in the tier was dependent on how much offense could adapt to its presence, and personally i don't think it can without making massive sacrifices :/.

EDIT: Sticky Web was brought up as Inteleon counterplay on offense on Discord, and i wanted to address that really quickly.

Sticky Web does help if the user can get them up, but Inteleon is fast enough that it can still outspeed a decent amount of Pokemon even with the speed drop (according to the damage calc it reaches 248 which outspeeds neutral natured Drednaw by one point lol). This is enough that Inteleon can still find opportunities to threaten the opponent even when Sticky Web is up, Vikavolt is going to be slower than it which is going to be an absolute given on Sticky Web teams, and it's quite likely the rocker is going to be slower as well unless it's jolly Drednaw or a Duraludon.

 

[ImperialGamer517]

Honestly, here is my EXTREMELY CONTROVERSIAL opinion.

Inteleon - I would have to agree with the others and ban this. It outspeeds the entire unboosted tier and hits hard with Choice Specs. IMO has to definitely go to RUBL.

Slurpuff - Here is the controversial statement: DO NOT BAN. Yes, Slurpuff may be broken due to Belly Drum + S. Berry + Unburden, but many top-tier threats can still wall Slurpuff and force it out, and yes, I’m taking all of this from my Slurpuff analysis. Vileplume, Rhydon, Charizard, and Steelix are all top-tier and can check Slurpuff, or in Vileplume’s case, just straight out OHKO it. That’s why we should not ban this monster.

 

[Katy]

Honestly, here is my EXTREMELY CONTROVERSIAL opinion.

Inteleon - I would have to agree with the others and ban this. It outspeeds the entire unboosted tier and hits hard with Choice Specs. IMO has to definitely go to RUBL.

Slurpuff - Here is the controversial statement: DO NOT BAN. Yes, Slurpuff may be broken due to Belly Drum + S. Berry + Unburden, but many top-tier threats can still wall Slurpuff and force it out, and yes, I’m taking all of this from my Slurpuff analysis. Vileplume, Rhydon, Charizard, and Steelix are all top-tier and can check Slurpuff, or in Vileplume’s case, just straight out OHKO it. That’s why we should not ban this monster.

hello,

im actually opposed to your opinion on slurpuff due to the LIMITED amount of counterplay here, especially when slurpuff finds itself behind dual screens or even worse aurora veil teams, since the latter of them gives u both different screens at the same time.

is an extremly controversial pkmn and can even function outside of the said dual screen teams, it can find itself on sticky web teams as well, where it stands out as a threat you always have to put pressure on, but with the archetypes (ho / cheese teams) it finds itself on it is easier said than done to pressure this cake as the counterplay is only limited to a few mons in the metagame currently and you find yourself kinda rrestricted on teambuilding, that being said there is also another thing i want to point out about the current metagame of the ru-tier. the ru-tier is far away from bein stabile with mons like inteleon, slurpuff and other lowkey supergood threats like salazzle, braviary (which could be an issue too at some point) and indeedee. there just too many threats to prep for in the metagame and you simply cant prep for them all as you can get overrun by other team-structures or pkmn pretty easily. i think to stabilize the ru-tier a little bit as of now is to take actions on the 2 most restrictive and noteable threats in and slurpuff.

therefore i would lean towards a BAN of both of 'em as of now to help the ru-tier in the stabilization progress.

 

[EviGaro]

Hlelo, here are the results of the latest vote:

7/9 ban

Inteleon votes

Ajna: im voting ban for inteleon on the basis that it is extremely restricting in the builder. inteleon on paper is near impossible to counter without vaporeon, and it can still beat vap that with the sub sd set that has been running around. it reminds me barraskewda in that’s a glass cannon water type, but it also has multiple sets and better bulk.

atomicllamas: Do Not Ban. While Inteleon is very good and potentially is too constraining for team building the same way that Barraskewda was. Its much more limited coverage and inability to get past bulky waters without resorting to a sub SD set (which has its own issues and also loses to waters that aren't Vaporeon) means that it is not quite problematic in RU. I think more exploration may be necessary and I'm very borderline on this one, but I think balanced and defensive teams have several options to deal with Inteleon while offensive teams have a more limited selection, they also give Inteleon limited chances to do much breaking, and several creative options exist for offensive teams which allow it to be dealt with more easily

Averardo: No Ban. I dont really think Inteleon is that unhealthy for the tier. All his checks like Vaporeon, Gastrodon and Virizion i think are Pokemon people would run regardless, regardless of Inteleon being in the tier or not. Plus, its frail so its not hard to pressure it. I think offensive teams would also be mediocre even with Inteleon or not. We have plenty of fast strong attackers that annoy offensive teams, Inteleon is just another one of them.
Bebo (ban): I find Inteleon quite unhealthy to an extent due to the fact that it has an amazing speed and hits pretty hard which makes it extremely hard for teams more torwarded offense to have a chance. Then that turns to every team pretty much needs a vaporeon or some sort of bulky water. This pokemon is pretty much single handedly stopping an entire playstyle from being viable or even close to that. Another good point is its a u-turn bot any checks or counters that you would switch into Inteleon most of the time you'd be losing momentum as most of those switchins will usually be passive waters making the momentum shift to the user using Inteleon.

EviGaro: Ban: While in some ways it is similar to Barraskewda, the main problem I see with Inteleon is that its water stab is far, far more threatening, and poses a large problem that current building is extremely limited against that specifically. Inteleon then boasts extremely good coverage for the offensive matchup, being able to have a move for nearly any check you would find on common offence builds. It struggles against some of the bulkier water, but flinching coverage and uturn mitigate that. And that's just with the specs set, there's some exploration to be made against it but Inteleon itself is underexplored and even arguably doesn't even need to be explored due to how dumb good that one set is.

Feliburn: Ban Inteleon is a great offensive mon, faster than the majority of the tier and hits incredibly strong with specs sets. Baically forces you to run one of the 3 water absorb mons in the tier because other mons get overwhelmed easily by the coverage and raw power. This imo makes for a very restrictive meta due to having to always use one of them. And even then ppl have used Sub SD sets to abuse mons like Vaporeon and Jellicent to freely set up and win. The tier would be way better without it

MrAldo BAN

Inteleon is very cool and all, but right now it causes an extremely polarizing effect on the metagame that is just very unpleasant. Offense flat out loses to this Pokemon since the potential offensive counterplay is extremely niche to the point arctovish is being utilized to just limit this mon, and stuff like virizion and toxicroak get absolutely mauled by the coverage which is sufficient to be too much to handle which is hilarious, and somewhat sad. Best offense it can do it has a water immunity/resistance and have a mon to outspeed and kill it, which are pretty much scarfers that can be take advantage of, and Boltund which is cool and can pack a punch but it is still not enough. It having U-turn is super annoying too, allowing it to heavily capitalize on its switch-ins and the inteleon users can proceed to go into a mon that beat the water resistance. In a vacuum it is very similar to barraskewda, but that fish was considerably frailer, no setup moves and no u-turn saw if barraskewda got something wrong it was riskier. BO and Balance do have the tools to handle with new drops like Vaporeon, Snorlax, Ferroseed, Gastrodon among other cool Pokemon but Inteleon can funnily enough pull off some sub setup sets to take advantage of stuff like vaporeon and jellicent and toxicroak so they arent that good to handle it, the coverage is sufficient to pull that off very well sadly. BAN

Odd Della Robbia: Ban - Inteleon forces too big of a strain on players in the teambuilder. Its ability to outspeed and OHKO/2HKO a large portion of the metagame invalidates offensive teams as they lack reliable switchins. Players are forced to run a bulky water or a Snorlax to reliably check Inteleon, and that’s just the Choice Specs set. It can also viably run a Substitute + Swords Dance set that is able to turn would-be counters like Vaporeon and Jellicent into setup fodder, and is capable of sweeping through an entire team if subbed down into salac berry and torrent range.

phantom: Ban Way too fast and too strong. It has maybe 2 counters in the entire tier and can beat or overpower just about anything else. Its counters are also exclusively defensive, which leaves little viable counter play available for anything faster than balance except for random junk like Wishiwashi. Its counters being so limited also makes it easy to build teams around Inteleon to pressure the few Pokemon capable of holding it off. Overall, it’s a little too restrictive and should probably go.

9/9 ban

Slurpuff votes

Ajna: i’m voting ban for slurpuff on the basis that it is uncompetitive. it is a mon that offers little to no defensive utility that wins games based solely on matchup. slurpuff does not even need proper support in the form of screens, veil, or memento to win games. i think slurpuff impacts our tier in an unhealthy way.

atomicllamas: Ban. Slurpuff is a Pokémon that has a negative effect on the meta game, due to both the large influence it has on the team builder and also the very careful counterplay it demands when you play against it. While Slurpuff has a few soft counters, they all require being at, or near full health, and the only Pokémon that both counters Slurpuff well and has reliable recovery is Vileplume. Due to its great typing and decent bulk for an offensive Pokémon it finds many opportunities to set up, if no hazards are up it can set up against anything that does not deal 75% or more damage. This includes all Virizion sets lacking Leaf Storm, Passimian locked into any move that isn't gunk shot, Life Orb Raichu-A (93.3% of the time), and Xatu from just the A+ and higher (and there are more that are rolls). If you carry any of these Pokémon you are required to carry a full counter to Slurpuff - and keep it at high enough health to deal with a +6 Slurpuff. Or carry a prankster encore mon and hard switch into Slurpuff every time (this includes Sableye which takes ~70 from play rough, and Whimsicott which takes ~40-60 depending on spreads), which can work if the opponent plays it wrong but is not guaranteed. The only viable means of revenge killing puff is Choice Scarf Salazzle. And this doesn't even get into the CM sets which have a different set of counters and more ways to get around them. Slurpuff overall just strains teambuilding and game play too much to be healthy for the RU tier.

Averardo: Ban. The definition of uncompetitive. Click one move and win. The fall in usage of Vileplume made dealing with this mon so much harder, and even then, CMind sets are pretty powerfull on their own.

Bebo (ban). oh fuck no please not another bebo ru open. This thing is so fucking extremely dumb that almost every team I've been seeing lately just gets smashed the second it finds a chance to set up. I've been seeing screens get some usage making it even extremely easy for this mon to just set up early-game and win the game right there. Slurpuff encourages these unhealthy cheese teams that no one wants to face and it fs needs to go

EviGaro: Ban: I kinda wanted to vote no ban on this because despite the panic I have not seen it outright win a lot, in fact the Belly Drum set to me isn't particularly amazing in its own right. Veil is an issue but Veil as a playstyle has lots of issues too. What I really, really dislike about Slurpuff is terrain Slurpuff, and I think people usually sleep on it. Electric Terrain is actually extremely viable since the drop of Raichu-Alola, and turns Slurpuff into a ridiculous partner and potential wincon. Indeedee support is less useful in some ways due to the defence boost being favourable, but not being owned by prankster and still being able to setup on common scarfers makes it still a massive threat. I think terrain is a bit underexplored and from what I see Slurpuff is definitely the major factor that can unbalance it, other unburdens like Hitmonlee, Driftblim or even Thievul are ok but nowhere near as oppressive and don't have as much diversity in making you prep for their setup.

Feliburn: Ban Slurpuff is just a very disgusting pokemon. It has both Veil and Unburden Seed support in the tier, making it easier for it to set up BDs or the annoying CM sets. There are a few mons that can trade with it but with the big ammount of offensive pressure in the tier it's really annoying to either get ur checks weakened for a mon that can set up as easily as Slurpuff or have ur mons torn apart for the heavy hitter in the back to finish u off. Really not that hard to lose with it.

MrAldo BAN

Eh, going back and forth with this one but in the end I think the mon is sufficiently bad for the metagame as a whole. It is fairly interesting cause a while ago thinking about it was somewhat laughable but from shift to shift Slurpuff has just been getting better and better, to a point that can easily get out of control. Main issue is that slurpuff isnt one-dimensional at all, the belly drum set is already threatened enough that pressing the wrong move with like a scarf passimian or like a draco dragon like choice duraludon or whatever can be a death sentence, BUT NOW we have an unburden psychic seed that is actually really good and beat the potential counterplay for the physical belly drum set. 2 great sets that are real easy to support, virtually no scarfers that can take the revenge kill besides salazzle which would rather run something else (and can probably still lose to a well played CM and lose to its coverage), and very easy ways to support both sets making slurpuff an extremely potent setup sweeper that can mess you up just by guessing the wrong set. Yeah, Id be leaning for a BAN on this one in the end, the one of a psychic terrain or electric terrain if you roll with the pincurchin which is a perfectly viable option alongside it together with belly drum... way too much.

Odd Della Robbia: Ban - This mon is simply uncompetitive. It sets up too easily behind screens/veil and can be hard to stop. Calm Mind sets have the coverage to beat the common stops to Belly Drum sets, so it’s often a tossup whether or not you have the tools to check it. The metagame would simply be better off without Slurpuff.

phantom: Ban This mon is kinda silly in its ability to completely turn games on its head. It requires you to preserve your Steelix at near peak condition to stand up to its belly drum set, and that obviously compromises your ability to do anything else with it. Other Belly Drum counters like Weezing, Vileplume, and Garbodor drop to Calm Mind terrain support sets, which is conveniently just as difficult to pin down. Arguably, Slurpuff is the best veil abuser, and the issues that teams already have in dealing with it are compounded even further under veil support.

Inteleon and Slurpuff are now banned from SW/SH RU, tagging Marty and The Immortal to remove them from the ladder, thank you!

 

[ImperialGamer517]

Hlelo, here are the results of the latest vote:

7/9 ban

Inteleon votes

Ajna: im voting ban for inteleon on the basis that it is extremely restricting in the builder. inteleon on paper is near impossible to counter without vaporeon, and it can still beat vap that with the sub sd set that has been running around. it reminds me barraskewda in that’s a glass cannon water type, but it also has multiple sets and better bulk.

atomicllamas: Do Not Ban. While Inteleon is very good and potentially is too constraining for team building the same way that Barraskewda was. Its much more limited coverage and inability to get past bulky waters without resorting to a sub SD set (which has its own issues and also loses to waters that aren't Vaporeon) means that it is not quite problematic in RU. I think more exploration may be necessary and I'm very borderline on this one, but I think balanced and defensive teams have several options to deal with Inteleon while offensive teams have a more limited selection, they also give Inteleon limited chances to do much breaking, and several creative options exist for offensive teams which allow it to be dealt with more easily

Averardo: No Ban. I dont really think Inteleon is that unhealthy for the tier. All his checks like Vaporeon, Gastrodon and Virizion i think are Pokemon people would run regardless, regardless of Inteleon being in the tier or not. Plus, its frail so its not hard to pressure it. I think offensive teams would also be mediocre even with Inteleon or not. We have plenty of fast strong attackers that annoy offensive teams, Inteleon is just another one of them.
Bebo (ban): I find Inteleon quite unhealthy to an extent due to the fact that it has an amazing speed and hits pretty hard which makes it extremely hard for teams more torwarded offense to have a chance. Then that turns to every team pretty much needs a vaporeon or some sort of bulky water. This pokemon is pretty much single handedly stopping an entire playstyle from being viable or even close to that. Another good point is its a u-turn bot any checks or counters that you would switch into Inteleon most of the time you'd be losing momentum as most of those switchins will usually be passive waters making the momentum shift to the user using Inteleon.

EviGaro: Ban: While in some ways it is similar to Barraskewda, the main problem I see with Inteleon is that its water stab is far, far more threatening, and poses a large problem that current building is extremely limited against that specifically. Inteleon then boasts extremely good coverage for the offensive matchup, being able to have a move for nearly any check you would find on common offence builds. It struggles against some of the bulkier water, but flinching coverage and uturn mitigate that. And that's just with the specs set, there's some exploration to be made against it but Inteleon itself is underexplored and even arguably doesn't even need to be explored due to how dumb good that one set is.

Feliburn: Ban Inteleon is a great offensive mon, faster than the majority of the tier and hits incredibly strong with specs sets. Baically forces you to run one of the 3 water absorb mons in the tier because other mons get overwhelmed easily by the coverage and raw power. This imo makes for a very restrictive meta due to having to always use one of them. And even then ppl have used Sub SD sets to abuse mons like Vaporeon and Jellicent to freely set up and win. The tier would be way better without it

MrAldo BAN

Inteleon is very cool and all, but right now it causes an extremely polarizing effect on the metagame that is just very unpleasant. Offense flat out loses to this Pokemon since the potential offensive counterplay is extremely niche to the point arctovish is being utilized to just limit this mon, and stuff like virizion and toxicroak get absolutely mauled by the coverage which is sufficient to be too much to handle which is hilarious, and somewhat sad. Best offense it can do it has a water immunity/resistance and have a mon to outspeed and kill it, which are pretty much scarfers that can be take advantage of, and Boltund which is cool and can pack a punch but it is still not enough. It having U-turn is super annoying too, allowing it to heavily capitalize on its switch-ins and the inteleon users can proceed to go into a mon that beat the water resistance. In a vacuum it is very similar to barraskewda, but that fish was considerably frailer, no setup moves and no u-turn saw if barraskewda got something wrong it was riskier. BO and Balance do have the tools to handle with new drops like Vaporeon, Snorlax, Ferroseed, Gastrodon among other cool Pokemon but Inteleon can funnily enough pull off some sub setup sets to take advantage of stuff like vaporeon and jellicent and toxicroak so they arent that good to handle it, the coverage is sufficient to pull that off very well sadly. BAN

Odd Della Robbia: Ban - Inteleon forces too big of a strain on players in the teambuilder. Its ability to outspeed and OHKO/2HKO a large portion of the metagame invalidates offensive teams as they lack reliable switchins. Players are forced to run a bulky water or a Snorlax to reliably check Inteleon, and that’s just the Choice Specs set. It can also viably run a Substitute + Swords Dance set that is able to turn would-be counters like Vaporeon and Jellicent into setup fodder, and is capable of sweeping through an entire team if subbed down into salac berry and torrent range.

phantom: Ban Way too fast and too strong. It has maybe 2 counters in the entire tier and can beat or overpower just about anything else. Its counters are also exclusively defensive, which leaves little viable counter play available for anything faster than balance except for random junk like Wishiwashi. Its counters being so limited also makes it easy to build teams around Inteleon to pressure the few Pokemon capable of holding it off. Overall, it’s a little too restrictive and should probably go.

9/9 ban

Slurpuff votes

Ajna: i’m voting ban for slurpuff on the basis that it is uncompetitive. it is a mon that offers little to no defensive utility that wins games based solely on matchup. slurpuff does not even need proper support in the form of screens, veil, or memento to win games. i think slurpuff impacts our tier in an unhealthy way.

atomicllamas: Ban. Slurpuff is a Pokémon that has a negative effect on the meta game, due to both the large influence it has on the team builder and also the very careful counterplay it demands when you play against it. While Slurpuff has a few soft counters, they all require being at, or near full health, and the only Pokémon that both counters Slurpuff well and has reliable recovery is Vileplume. Due to its great typing and decent bulk for an offensive Pokémon it finds many opportunities to set up, if no hazards are up it can set up against anything that does not deal 75% or more damage. This includes all Virizion sets lacking Leaf Storm, Passimian locked into any move that isn't gunk shot, Life Orb Raichu-A (93.3% of the time), and Xatu from just the A+ and higher (and there are more that are rolls). If you carry any of these Pokémon you are required to carry a full counter to Slurpuff - and keep it at high enough health to deal with a +6 Slurpuff. Or carry a prankster encore mon and hard switch into Slurpuff every time (this includes Sableye which takes ~70 from play rough, and Whimsicott which takes ~40-60 depending on spreads), which can work if the opponent plays it wrong but is not guaranteed. The only viable means of revenge killing puff is Choice Scarf Salazzle. And this doesn't even get into the CM sets which have a different set of counters and more ways to get around them. Slurpuff overall just strains teambuilding and game play too much to be healthy for the RU tier.

Averardo: Ban. The definition of uncompetitive. Click one move and win. The fall in usage of Vileplume made dealing with this mon so much harder, and even then, CMind sets are pretty powerfull on their own.

Bebo (ban). oh fuck no please not another bebo ru open. This thing is so fucking extremely dumb that almost every team I've been seeing lately just gets smashed the second it finds a chance to set up. I've been seeing screens get some usage making it even extremely easy for this mon to just set up early-game and win the game right there. Slurpuff encourages these unhealthy cheese teams that no one wants to face and it fs needs to go

EviGaro: Ban: I kinda wanted to vote no ban on this because despite the panic I have not seen it outright win a lot, in fact the Belly Drum set to me isn't particularly amazing in its own right. Veil is an issue but Veil as a playstyle has lots of issues too. What I really, really dislike about Slurpuff is terrain Slurpuff, and I think people usually sleep on it. Electric Terrain is actually extremely viable since the drop of Raichu-Alola, and turns Slurpuff into a ridiculous partner and potential wincon. Indeedee support is less useful in some ways due to the defence boost being favourable, but not being owned by prankster and still being able to setup on common scarfers makes it still a massive threat. I think terrain is a bit underexplored and from what I see Slurpuff is definitely the major factor that can unbalance it, other unburdens like Hitmonlee, Driftblim or even Thievul are ok but nowhere near as oppressive and don't have as much diversity in making you prep for their setup.

Feliburn: Ban Slurpuff is just a very disgusting pokemon. It has both Veil and Unburden Seed support in the tier, making it easier for it to set up BDs or the annoying CM sets. There are a few mons that can trade with it but with the big ammount of offensive pressure in the tier it's really annoying to either get ur checks weakened for a mon that can set up as easily as Slurpuff or have ur mons torn apart for the heavy hitter in the back to finish u off. Really not that hard to lose with it.

MrAldo BAN

Eh, going back and forth with this one but in the end I think the mon is sufficiently bad for the metagame as a whole. It is fairly interesting cause a while ago thinking about it was somewhat laughable but from shift to shift Slurpuff has just been getting better and better, to a point that can easily get out of control. Main issue is that slurpuff isnt one-dimensional at all, the belly drum set is already threatened enough that pressing the wrong move with like a scarf passimian or like a draco dragon like choice duraludon or whatever can be a death sentence, BUT NOW we have an unburden psychic seed that is actually really good and beat the potential counterplay for the physical belly drum set. 2 great sets that are real easy to support, virtually no scarfers that can take the revenge kill besides salazzle which would rather run something else (and can probably still lose to a well played CM and lose to its coverage), and very easy ways to support both sets making slurpuff an extremely potent setup sweeper that can mess you up just by guessing the wrong set. Yeah, Id be leaning for a BAN on this one in the end, the one of a psychic terrain or electric terrain if you roll with the pincurchin which is a perfectly viable option alongside it together with belly drum... way too much.

Odd Della Robbia: Ban - This mon is simply uncompetitive. It sets up too easily behind screens/veil and can be hard to stop. Calm Mind sets have the coverage to beat the common stops to Belly Drum sets, so it’s often a tossup whether or not you have the tools to check it. The metagame would simply be better off without Slurpuff.

phantom: Ban This mon is kinda silly in its ability to completely turn games on its head. It requires you to preserve your Steelix at near peak condition to stand up to its belly drum set, and that obviously compromises your ability to do anything else with it. Other Belly Drum counters like Weezing, Vileplume, and Garbodor drop to Calm Mind terrain support sets, which is conveniently just as difficult to pin down. Arguably, Slurpuff is the best veil abuser, and the issues that teams already have in dealing with it are compounded even further under veil support.

Inteleon and Slurpuff are now banned from SW/SH RU, tagging Marty and The Immortal to remove them from the ladder, thank you!

Oh well RIP my Slurpuff analysis

 

[Nalorium]

Hlelo, here are the results of the latest vote:

7/9 ban

Inteleon votes

Ajna: im voting ban for inteleon on the basis that it is extremely restricting in the builder. inteleon on paper is near impossible to counter without vaporeon, and it can still beat vap that with the sub sd set that has been running around. it reminds me barraskewda in that’s a glass cannon water type, but it also has multiple sets and better bulk.

atomicllamas: Do Not Ban. While Inteleon is very good and potentially is too constraining for team building the same way that Barraskewda was. Its much more limited coverage and inability to get past bulky waters without resorting to a sub SD set (which has its own issues and also loses to waters that aren't Vaporeon) means that it is not quite problematic in RU. I think more exploration may be necessary and I'm very borderline on this one, but I think balanced and defensive teams have several options to deal with Inteleon while offensive teams have a more limited selection, they also give Inteleon limited chances to do much breaking, and several creative options exist for offensive teams which allow it to be dealt with more easily

Averardo: No Ban. I dont really think Inteleon is that unhealthy for the tier. All his checks like Vaporeon, Gastrodon and Virizion i think are Pokemon people would run regardless, regardless of Inteleon being in the tier or not. Plus, its frail so its not hard to pressure it. I think offensive teams would also be mediocre even with Inteleon or not. We have plenty of fast strong attackers that annoy offensive teams, Inteleon is just another one of them.
Bebo (ban): I find Inteleon quite unhealthy to an extent due to the fact that it has an amazing speed and hits pretty hard which makes it extremely hard for teams more torwarded offense to have a chance. Then that turns to every team pretty much needs a vaporeon or some sort of bulky water. This pokemon is pretty much single handedly stopping an entire playstyle from being viable or even close to that. Another good point is its a u-turn bot any checks or counters that you would switch into Inteleon most of the time you'd be losing momentum as most of those switchins will usually be passive waters making the momentum shift to the user using Inteleon.

EviGaro: Ban: While in some ways it is similar to Barraskewda, the main problem I see with Inteleon is that its water stab is far, far more threatening, and poses a large problem that current building is extremely limited against that specifically. Inteleon then boasts extremely good coverage for the offensive matchup, being able to have a move for nearly any check you would find on common offence builds. It struggles against some of the bulkier water, but flinching coverage and uturn mitigate that. And that's just with the specs set, there's some exploration to be made against it but Inteleon itself is underexplored and even arguably doesn't even need to be explored due to how dumb good that one set is.

Feliburn: Ban Inteleon is a great offensive mon, faster than the majority of the tier and hits incredibly strong with specs sets. Baically forces you to run one of the 3 water absorb mons in the tier because other mons get overwhelmed easily by the coverage and raw power. This imo makes for a very restrictive meta due to having to always use one of them. And even then ppl have used Sub SD sets to abuse mons like Vaporeon and Jellicent to freely set up and win. The tier would be way better without it

MrAldo BAN

Inteleon is very cool and all, but right now it causes an extremely polarizing effect on the metagame that is just very unpleasant. Offense flat out loses to this Pokemon since the potential offensive counterplay is extremely niche to the point arctovish is being utilized to just limit this mon, and stuff like virizion and toxicroak get absolutely mauled by the coverage which is sufficient to be too much to handle which is hilarious, and somewhat sad. Best offense it can do it has a water immunity/resistance and have a mon to outspeed and kill it, which are pretty much scarfers that can be take advantage of, and Boltund which is cool and can pack a punch but it is still not enough. It having U-turn is super annoying too, allowing it to heavily capitalize on its switch-ins and the inteleon users can proceed to go into a mon that beat the water resistance. In a vacuum it is very similar to barraskewda, but that fish was considerably frailer, no setup moves and no u-turn saw if barraskewda got something wrong it was riskier. BO and Balance do have the tools to handle with new drops like Vaporeon, Snorlax, Ferroseed, Gastrodon among other cool Pokemon but Inteleon can funnily enough pull off some sub setup sets to take advantage of stuff like vaporeon and jellicent and toxicroak so they arent that good to handle it, the coverage is sufficient to pull that off very well sadly. BAN

Odd Della Robbia: Ban - Inteleon forces too big of a strain on players in the teambuilder. Its ability to outspeed and OHKO/2HKO a large portion of the metagame invalidates offensive teams as they lack reliable switchins. Players are forced to run a bulky water or a Snorlax to reliably check Inteleon, and that’s just the Choice Specs set. It can also viably run a Substitute + Swords Dance set that is able to turn would-be counters like Vaporeon and Jellicent into setup fodder, and is capable of sweeping through an entire team if subbed down into salac berry and torrent range.

phantom: Ban Way too fast and too strong. It has maybe 2 counters in the entire tier and can beat or overpower just about anything else. Its counters are also exclusively defensive, which leaves little viable counter play available for anything faster than balance except for random junk like Wishiwashi. Its counters being so limited also makes it easy to build teams around Inteleon to pressure the few Pokemon capable of holding it off. Overall, it’s a little too restrictive and should probably go.

9/9 ban

Slurpuff votes

Ajna: i’m voting ban for slurpuff on the basis that it is uncompetitive. it is a mon that offers little to no defensive utility that wins games based solely on matchup. slurpuff does not even need proper support in the form of screens, veil, or memento to win games. i think slurpuff impacts our tier in an unhealthy way.

atomicllamas: Ban. Slurpuff is a Pokémon that has a negative effect on the meta game, due to both the large influence it has on the team builder and also the very careful counterplay it demands when you play against it. While Slurpuff has a few soft counters, they all require being at, or near full health, and the only Pokémon that both counters Slurpuff well and has reliable recovery is Vileplume. Due to its great typing and decent bulk for an offensive Pokémon it finds many opportunities to set up, if no hazards are up it can set up against anything that does not deal 75% or more damage. This includes all Virizion sets lacking Leaf Storm, Passimian locked into any move that isn't gunk shot, Life Orb Raichu-A (93.3% of the time), and Xatu from just the A+ and higher (and there are more that are rolls). If you carry any of these Pokémon you are required to carry a full counter to Slurpuff - and keep it at high enough health to deal with a +6 Slurpuff. Or carry a prankster encore mon and hard switch into Slurpuff every time (this includes Sableye which takes ~70 from play rough, and Whimsicott which takes ~40-60 depending on spreads), which can work if the opponent plays it wrong but is not guaranteed. The only viable means of revenge killing puff is Choice Scarf Salazzle. And this doesn't even get into the CM sets which have a different set of counters and more ways to get around them. Slurpuff overall just strains teambuilding and game play too much to be healthy for the RU tier.

Averardo: Ban. The definition of uncompetitive. Click one move and win. The fall in usage of Vileplume made dealing with this mon so much harder, and even then, CMind sets are pretty powerfull on their own.

Bebo (ban). oh fuck no please not another bebo ru open. This thing is so fucking extremely dumb that almost every team I've been seeing lately just gets smashed the second it finds a chance to set up. I've been seeing screens get some usage making it even extremely easy for this mon to just set up early-game and win the game right there. Slurpuff encourages these unhealthy cheese teams that no one wants to face and it fs needs to go

EviGaro: Ban: I kinda wanted to vote no ban on this because despite the panic I have not seen it outright win a lot, in fact the Belly Drum set to me isn't particularly amazing in its own right. Veil is an issue but Veil as a playstyle has lots of issues too. What I really, really dislike about Slurpuff is terrain Slurpuff, and I think people usually sleep on it. Electric Terrain is actually extremely viable since the drop of Raichu-Alola, and turns Slurpuff into a ridiculous partner and potential wincon. Indeedee support is less useful in some ways due to the defence boost being favourable, but not being owned by prankster and still being able to setup on common scarfers makes it still a massive threat. I think terrain is a bit underexplored and from what I see Slurpuff is definitely the major factor that can unbalance it, other unburdens like Hitmonlee, Driftblim or even Thievul are ok but nowhere near as oppressive and don't have as much diversity in making you prep for their setup.

Feliburn: Ban Slurpuff is just a very disgusting pokemon. It has both Veil and Unburden Seed support in the tier, making it easier for it to set up BDs or the annoying CM sets. There are a few mons that can trade with it but with the big ammount of offensive pressure in the tier it's really annoying to either get ur checks weakened for a mon that can set up as easily as Slurpuff or have ur mons torn apart for the heavy hitter in the back to finish u off. Really not that hard to lose with it.

MrAldo BAN

Eh, going back and forth with this one but in the end I think the mon is sufficiently bad for the metagame as a whole. It is fairly interesting cause a while ago thinking about it was somewhat laughable but from shift to shift Slurpuff has just been getting better and better, to a point that can easily get out of control. Main issue is that slurpuff isnt one-dimensional at all, the belly drum set is already threatened enough that pressing the wrong move with like a scarf passimian or like a draco dragon like choice duraludon or whatever can be a death sentence, BUT NOW we have an unburden psychic seed that is actually really good and beat the potential counterplay for the physical belly drum set. 2 great sets that are real easy to support, virtually no scarfers that can take the revenge kill besides salazzle which would rather run something else (and can probably still lose to a well played CM and lose to its coverage), and very easy ways to support both sets making slurpuff an extremely potent setup sweeper that can mess you up just by guessing the wrong set. Yeah, Id be leaning for a BAN on this one in the end, the one of a psychic terrain or electric terrain if you roll with the pincurchin which is a perfectly viable option alongside it together with belly drum... way too much.

Odd Della Robbia: Ban - This mon is simply uncompetitive. It sets up too easily behind screens/veil and can be hard to stop. Calm Mind sets have the coverage to beat the common stops to Belly Drum sets, so it’s often a tossup whether or not you have the tools to check it. The metagame would simply be better off without Slurpuff.

phantom: Ban This mon is kinda silly in its ability to completely turn games on its head. It requires you to preserve your Steelix at near peak condition to stand up to its belly drum set, and that obviously compromises your ability to do anything else with it. Other Belly Drum counters like Weezing, Vileplume, and Garbodor drop to Calm Mind terrain support sets, which is conveniently just as difficult to pin down. Arguably, Slurpuff is the best veil abuser, and the issues that teams already have in dealing with it are compounded even further under veil support.

Inteleon and Slurpuff are now banned from SW/SH RU, tagging Marty and The Immortal to remove them from the ladder, thank you!

YEI!

 

[War Incarnate]

Hlelo, here are the results of the latest vote:

7/9 ban

Inteleon votes

Ajna: im voting ban for inteleon on the basis that it is extremely restricting in the builder. inteleon on paper is near impossible to counter without vaporeon, and it can still beat vap that with the sub sd set that has been running around. it reminds me barraskewda in that’s a glass cannon water type, but it also has multiple sets and better bulk.

atomicllamas: Do Not Ban. While Inteleon is very good and potentially is too constraining for team building the same way that Barraskewda was. Its much more limited coverage and inability to get past bulky waters without resorting to a sub SD set (which has its own issues and also loses to waters that aren't Vaporeon) means that it is not quite problematic in RU. I think more exploration may be necessary and I'm very borderline on this one, but I think balanced and defensive teams have several options to deal with Inteleon while offensive teams have a more limited selection, they also give Inteleon limited chances to do much breaking, and several creative options exist for offensive teams which allow it to be dealt with more easily

Averardo: No Ban. I dont really think Inteleon is that unhealthy for the tier. All his checks like Vaporeon, Gastrodon and Virizion i think are Pokemon people would run regardless, regardless of Inteleon being in the tier or not. Plus, its frail so its not hard to pressure it. I think offensive teams would also be mediocre even with Inteleon or not. We have plenty of fast strong attackers that annoy offensive teams, Inteleon is just another one of them.
Bebo (ban): I find Inteleon quite unhealthy to an extent due to the fact that it has an amazing speed and hits pretty hard which makes it extremely hard for teams more torwarded offense to have a chance. Then that turns to every team pretty much needs a vaporeon or some sort of bulky water. This pokemon is pretty much single handedly stopping an entire playstyle from being viable or even close to that. Another good point is its a u-turn bot any checks or counters that you would switch into Inteleon most of the time you'd be losing momentum as most of those switchins will usually be passive waters making the momentum shift to the user using Inteleon.

EviGaro: Ban: While in some ways it is similar to Barraskewda, the main problem I see with Inteleon is that its water stab is far, far more threatening, and poses a large problem that current building is extremely limited against that specifically. Inteleon then boasts extremely good coverage for the offensive matchup, being able to have a move for nearly any check you would find on common offence builds. It struggles against some of the bulkier water, but flinching coverage and uturn mitigate that. And that's just with the specs set, there's some exploration to be made against it but Inteleon itself is underexplored and even arguably doesn't even need to be explored due to how dumb good that one set is.

Feliburn: Ban Inteleon is a great offensive mon, faster than the majority of the tier and hits incredibly strong with specs sets. Baically forces you to run one of the 3 water absorb mons in the tier because other mons get overwhelmed easily by the coverage and raw power. This imo makes for a very restrictive meta due to having to always use one of them. And even then ppl have used Sub SD sets to abuse mons like Vaporeon and Jellicent to freely set up and win. The tier would be way better without it

MrAldo BAN

Inteleon is very cool and all, but right now it causes an extremely polarizing effect on the metagame that is just very unpleasant. Offense flat out loses to this Pokemon since the potential offensive counterplay is extremely niche to the point arctovish is being utilized to just limit this mon, and stuff like virizion and toxicroak get absolutely mauled by the coverage which is sufficient to be too much to handle which is hilarious, and somewhat sad. Best offense it can do it has a water immunity/resistance and have a mon to outspeed and kill it, which are pretty much scarfers that can be take advantage of, and Boltund which is cool and can pack a punch but it is still not enough. It having U-turn is super annoying too, allowing it to heavily capitalize on its switch-ins and the inteleon users can proceed to go into a mon that beat the water resistance. In a vacuum it is very similar to barraskewda, but that fish was considerably frailer, no setup moves and no u-turn saw if barraskewda got something wrong it was riskier. BO and Balance do have the tools to handle with new drops like Vaporeon, Snorlax, Ferroseed, Gastrodon among other cool Pokemon but Inteleon can funnily enough pull off some sub setup sets to take advantage of stuff like vaporeon and jellicent and toxicroak so they arent that good to handle it, the coverage is sufficient to pull that off very well sadly. BAN

Odd Della Robbia: Ban - Inteleon forces too big of a strain on players in the teambuilder. Its ability to outspeed and OHKO/2HKO a large portion of the metagame invalidates offensive teams as they lack reliable switchins. Players are forced to run a bulky water or a Snorlax to reliably check Inteleon, and that’s just the Choice Specs set. It can also viably run a Substitute + Swords Dance set that is able to turn would-be counters like Vaporeon and Jellicent into setup fodder, and is capable of sweeping through an entire team if subbed down into salac berry and torrent range.

phantom: Ban Way too fast and too strong. It has maybe 2 counters in the entire tier and can beat or overpower just about anything else. Its counters are also exclusively defensive, which leaves little viable counter play available for anything faster than balance except for random junk like Wishiwashi. Its counters being so limited also makes it easy to build teams around Inteleon to pressure the few Pokemon capable of holding it off. Overall, it’s a little too restrictive and should probably go.

9/9 ban

Slurpuff votes

Ajna: i’m voting ban for slurpuff on the basis that it is uncompetitive. it is a mon that offers little to no defensive utility that wins games based solely on matchup. slurpuff does not even need proper support in the form of screens, veil, or memento to win games. i think slurpuff impacts our tier in an unhealthy way.

atomicllamas: Ban. Slurpuff is a Pokémon that has a negative effect on the meta game, due to both the large influence it has on the team builder and also the very careful counterplay it demands when you play against it. While Slurpuff has a few soft counters, they all require being at, or near full health, and the only Pokémon that both counters Slurpuff well and has reliable recovery is Vileplume. Due to its great typing and decent bulk for an offensive Pokémon it finds many opportunities to set up, if no hazards are up it can set up against anything that does not deal 75% or more damage. This includes all Virizion sets lacking Leaf Storm, Passimian locked into any move that isn't gunk shot, Life Orb Raichu-A (93.3% of the time), and Xatu from just the A+ and higher (and there are more that are rolls). If you carry any of these Pokémon you are required to carry a full counter to Slurpuff - and keep it at high enough health to deal with a +6 Slurpuff. Or carry a prankster encore mon and hard switch into Slurpuff every time (this includes Sableye which takes ~70 from play rough, and Whimsicott which takes ~40-60 depending on spreads), which can work if the opponent plays it wrong but is not guaranteed. The only viable means of revenge killing puff is Choice Scarf Salazzle. And this doesn't even get into the CM sets which have a different set of counters and more ways to get around them. Slurpuff overall just strains teambuilding and game play too much to be healthy for the RU tier.

Averardo: Ban. The definition of uncompetitive. Click one move and win. The fall in usage of Vileplume made dealing with this mon so much harder, and even then, CMind sets are pretty powerfull on their own.

Bebo (ban). oh fuck no please not another bebo ru open. This thing is so fucking extremely dumb that almost every team I've been seeing lately just gets smashed the second it finds a chance to set up. I've been seeing screens get some usage making it even extremely easy for this mon to just set up early-game and win the game right there. Slurpuff encourages these unhealthy cheese teams that no one wants to face and it fs needs to go

EviGaro: Ban: I kinda wanted to vote no ban on this because despite the panic I have not seen it outright win a lot, in fact the Belly Drum set to me isn't particularly amazing in its own right. Veil is an issue but Veil as a playstyle has lots of issues too. What I really, really dislike about Slurpuff is terrain Slurpuff, and I think people usually sleep on it. Electric Terrain is actually extremely viable since the drop of Raichu-Alola, and turns Slurpuff into a ridiculous partner and potential wincon. Indeedee support is less useful in some ways due to the defence boost being favourable, but not being owned by prankster and still being able to setup on common scarfers makes it still a massive threat. I think terrain is a bit underexplored and from what I see Slurpuff is definitely the major factor that can unbalance it, other unburdens like Hitmonlee, Driftblim or even Thievul are ok but nowhere near as oppressive and don't have as much diversity in making you prep for their setup.

Feliburn: Ban Slurpuff is just a very disgusting pokemon. It has both Veil and Unburden Seed support in the tier, making it easier for it to set up BDs or the annoying CM sets. There are a few mons that can trade with it but with the big ammount of offensive pressure in the tier it's really annoying to either get ur checks weakened for a mon that can set up as easily as Slurpuff or have ur mons torn apart for the heavy hitter in the back to finish u off. Really not that hard to lose with it.

MrAldo BAN

Eh, going back and forth with this one but in the end I think the mon is sufficiently bad for the metagame as a whole. It is fairly interesting cause a while ago thinking about it was somewhat laughable but from shift to shift Slurpuff has just been getting better and better, to a point that can easily get out of control. Main issue is that slurpuff isnt one-dimensional at all, the belly drum set is already threatened enough that pressing the wrong move with like a scarf passimian or like a draco dragon like choice duraludon or whatever can be a death sentence, BUT NOW we have an unburden psychic seed that is actually really good and beat the potential counterplay for the physical belly drum set. 2 great sets that are real easy to support, virtually no scarfers that can take the revenge kill besides salazzle which would rather run something else (and can probably still lose to a well played CM and lose to its coverage), and very easy ways to support both sets making slurpuff an extremely potent setup sweeper that can mess you up just by guessing the wrong set. Yeah, Id be leaning for a BAN on this one in the end, the one of a psychic terrain or electric terrain if you roll with the pincurchin which is a perfectly viable option alongside it together with belly drum... way too much.

Odd Della Robbia: Ban - This mon is simply uncompetitive. It sets up too easily behind screens/veil and can be hard to stop. Calm Mind sets have the coverage to beat the common stops to Belly Drum sets, so it’s often a tossup whether or not you have the tools to check it. The metagame would simply be better off without Slurpuff.

phantom: Ban This mon is kinda silly in its ability to completely turn games on its head. It requires you to preserve your Steelix at near peak condition to stand up to its belly drum set, and that obviously compromises your ability to do anything else with it. Other Belly Drum counters like Weezing, Vileplume, and Garbodor drop to Calm Mind terrain support sets, which is conveniently just as difficult to pin down. Arguably, Slurpuff is the best veil abuser, and the issues that teams already have in dealing with it are compounded even further under veil support.

Inteleon and Slurpuff are now banned from SW/SH RU, tagging Marty and The Immortal to remove them from the ladder, thank you!

Yeah, as much as I liked them (or hated them in the case of Inteleon) they needed to go. I kinda hope they come back once DLC is released.

 

[Gatorboy]

Ima miss my puff on screens, but at least one less rival for my Linoone :]

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

I come back from the ban and this is what happened? Jeez, Slurpuff cant catch a break. Remember when this thing was allowed in NU? I havent played much RU lately, but I think Aurora Veil is the problem. Similar to Sun in UU, I say banning the abusers is a good start, but if it turns out AV is the problem and not Slurpuff, then I say unban slurpuff, then ban AV. If the AV Setters were banned, I would be cracking up for the next 3 years that Alolan Vulpix got banned from ru.

 

[Pabloaram]

I come back from the ban and this is what happened? Jeez, Slurpuff cant catch a break. Remember when this thing was allowed in NU? I havent played much RU lately, but I think Aurora Veil is the problem. Similar to Sun in UU, I say banning the abusers is a good start, but if it turns out AV is the problem and not Slurpuff, then I say unban slurpuff, then ban AV. If the AV Setters were banned, I would be cracking up for the next 3 years that Alolan Vulpix got banned from ru.

was good without screens...
I mean if screens become a problema you could ban Light Clay reducing the time of uselfuness. 5 turns is easy to play around bc you lose 2 or more turns without doing DMG.. 1 set screens 2 swithch/boom 3 setup 4 start attacking.....

 

[Plague von Karma]

I come back from the ban and this is what happened? Jeez, Slurpuff cant catch a break. Remember when this thing was allowed in NU? I havent played much RU lately, but I think Aurora Veil is the problem. Similar to Sun in UU, I say banning the abusers is a good start, but if it turns out AV is the problem and not Slurpuff, then I say unban slurpuff, then ban AV. If the AV Setters were banned, I would be cracking up for the next 3 years that Alolan Vulpix got banned from ru.

1) Banning a move is already stepping a good bit out of the tiering policy. Smogon tiers Pokemon, not moves, most of the time. If a move, ability, etc is banned, it requires it to be a very very significant problem. Same reason Galarian Darmanitan got the boot rather than Gorilla Tactics.
2) Slurpuff absolutely did NOT need screens to mow your team down. It was seen on a variety of teams. If it was only viable on Veil it wouldn't have been banned in the first place; it would be considered a cheese team if anything.

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

1) Banning a move is already stepping a good bit out of the tiering policy. Smogon tiers Pokemon, not moves, most of the time. If a move, ability, etc is banned, it requires it to be a very very significant problem. Same reason Galarian Darmanitan got the boot rather than Gorilla Tactics.
2) Slurpuff absolutely did NOT need screens to mow your team down. It was seen on a variety of teams. If it was only viable on Veil it wouldn't have been banned in the first place; it would be considered a cheese team if anything.

UU has banned Aurora Veil before, and RU can do that too.

Secondly, I didnt say Slurpuff didnt need screens to function, I meant to say it was MORE MANAGEABLE without dual screens.

252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff with an ally's Aurora Veil: 177-208 (57.8 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 354-416 (115.6 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Look at the difference between these calcs. Do you see my point now?

(These calcs used the standard belly drum set)

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

was good without screens...
I mean if screens become a problema you could ban Light Clay reducing the time of uselfuness. 5 turns is easy to play around bc you lose 2 or more turns without doing DMG.. 1 set screens 2 swithch/boom 3 setup 4 start attacking.....

I see your point, it's similar to how PU handled sun. They banned drought, (we dont have Gmax lapras) and heat rock. I assume their thought process was similar to yours.

 

[Plague von Karma]

UU has banned Aurora Veil before, and RU can do that too.

Secondly, I didnt say Slurpuff didnt need screens to function, I meant to say it was MORE MANAGEABLE without dual screens.

252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff with an ally's Aurora Veil: 177-208 (57.8 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 354-416 (115.6 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Look at the difference between these calcs. Do you see my point now?

(These calcs used the standard belly drum set)

No, I don't really see your point, because you skirted over many crucial points about both of these.

Aurora Veil has been banned in a good few tiers before, yes. Once again, however, it's a last resort. The issue with your argument is that those scenarios were all far more extreme than what we have here. Those formats had very few Pokemon capable of actually removing Aurora Veil, we don't have that issue. For example, see atomicllamas' post about the last time it was banned from RU. Pangoro blocked Psychic Fangs, for example. If you view the Policy Review thread on Drought in Lower Tiers you'll see how resistant Smogon is to enacting these kinds of bans these days. Once again, Smogon aims to tier Pokemon, not moves, abilities, etc. Banning an entire playstyle to preserve Slurpuff would have been a horrible move.

Your claim that Slurpuff is managable without screens lacks much foundation here. You've put two calcs assuming Salazzle is in at the time of Slurpuff going off. Chances are, Slurpuff wouldn't have been Belly Drumming in front of one, nor when a check is still alive. Once it's set up, there isn't a switch-in. Chances are you're either sacking a mon or taking mortal damage just to get it in and try. It isn't like it can't try again later either. Sure you can kill it more easily, never disputed that as it goes without saying. Give a real point.

 

[Pabloaram]

UU has banned Aurora Veil before, and RU can do that too.

Secondly, I didnt say Slurpuff didnt need screens to function, I meant to say it was MORE MANAGEABLE without dual screens.

252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff with an ally's Aurora Veil: 177-208 (57.8 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 354-416 (115.6 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Look at the difference between these calcs. Do you see my point now?

(These calcs used the standard belly drum set)

About UU.. they ban alolatales bc he was to good as a screens setter...
What i mean (i think Plague think the same) is Slurpuff cannot be drop back of RUBL bc she/he (idk) was broken for 2 reason: 1) the bellydrum set and 2) the calm mind set that blow away the counters of bd set, not bc of screens...
Many setup sweeper become banworty if we count screens btw.. slurpuff doesnt need screen to be broken

 

[Molk]

Even without screens support Belly Drum Slurpuff is still capable of taking a single set up opportunity (which are more common than you'd think because Slurpuff's bulky enough to take at least one hit most of the time and Fairy is a decent defensive typing) and turning it into a win right then and there. Both Pokemon that can take a hit from it at +6 and Pokemon that can outspeed it after an unburden boost are very limited in the current metagame. That's why it was voted on and banned, not because of its effectiveness under aurora veil, although puff under veil *is* even scarier than usual.

Personally i've never been the biggest fan of CM Slurpuff but it's also worth mentioning because it gets instant unburden activation on switchin when paired with Indeedee thanks to Psychic Seed and max special attack Flamethrower/Psychic give the Belly Drum set's (limited) amount of checks a hard time.

 

[Nat]

I was keeping it under wraps but I guess it couldn't hurt to talk about a tales set I think does a lot of cool stuff.

Ninetales @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Agility

I've seen people running a lot of moves for the filler, such as protect/toxic/encore/energy ball, but I think this one trumps all of those as a 4th. It's usually going to catch your opponent off guard and having the speed option can be especially punishing lategame. If you get off both an NP and an agility there's really not much in the tier that can withstand it, both from a tanking aspect but also touching it. It's no secret we lack various forms of priority, and +2 speed tales outspeeds literally everything on our speed tier forum save for tailwind whimsicott and unburden accelgor. I run heat rock to obviously prolong solar beam usage, which is particularly useful in the event you're able to double dance. You can likely tweak the EVs slightly but I'll leave that to col49 to handle. I wouldn't recommend modest cus even though you hardly need timid when at +2 speed, at neutral there's a ton you miss going from 328 to 299. That's about it. It's a menace and I'm sure others will pick up on it soon.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

So, Tier shifts happened.

We lost Xatu

, but won torkoal and Galarian corsola

Thoughts? I see sun getting a bit out of hand now, but I am not sure

 

[Plague von Karma]

Who we got and we lost
| RU -> UU Lost | Lowkey really glad this thing is gone, I hated fighting it LOL. Molk said Orbeetle is good because of this since Xatu previously just stopped it from existing. I think Sticky Web offence will be a lot better, well, hazards in general.

Orbeetle Set

Molk gave me this, so feel free to give it a shot and see what you think.
Orbeetle @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sticky Web
- U-turn
- Recover
- Psychic

| UU -> RU Gained | Oh no.
| UU -> RU Gained | I don't think Dugtrio will really do anything, Arena Trap isn't around so it's pretty bad. I think it could do something with Choice Band maybe? Idk, it dies a bit too quickly. It's not like Inteleon.
| UU -> RU Gained | Pretty sure people will use this for like a week and then start using Ninetales again. Could be wrong though, 2 Droughts sounds horrific at a glance LOL

Rises/Drops
| NUBL -> RU
| NU -> RU
| RU -> NUBL
| RU -> NU
| RU -> NU
| RU -> NU
| RU -> NU
| RU -> NU
(Ghost) | RU -> NU
(Steel) | RU -> NU

 

[CryoGyro]

meme

 

[phantom]

In addition to the tier shifts, Grassy Surge Rillaboom has been released and is live on showdown. As usual, if any tiering decisions need to be taken, expect one to be made within the next week or two. We also received a confirmed date for the DLCs, which will be the 17th of this month.

 

[ImperialGamer517]

In addition to the tier shifts, Grassy Surge Rillaboom has been released and is live on showdown. As usual, if any tiering decisions need to be taken, expect one to be made within the next week or two. We also received a confirmed date for the DLCs, which will be the 17th of this month.

So we will have two tier shifts for this month?

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

So we will have two tier shifts for this month?

No. The only thing happening is new pokemon being added. All of the fully evolved pokemon will start in OU like usual, but I heard NFEs that were tiered last generation that are being added now will be tiered where they were last generation. (Magneton starting in UU or Golbat in NU for example)

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

dope core

Rillaboom @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- High Horsepower
- U-turn
- Knock Off

Raichu-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Psyshock
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot

Raichu benefits a lot from Grassy Terrain. It appreciates opposing Earthquakes being weakened, it loves not having to worry about Life Orb recoil, and having its Grass Knot powered up is the icing on the cake. In return for these benefits, Raichu can check Charizard and Vileplume as well as bring Rillaboom in with Volt Switch. As for partners, since this is a VoltTurn core, you'll want a spinner like, say, Hitmonlee or Coalossal to remove hazards.

Actually, speaking of Hitmonlee, maybe it could run Grassy Seed and HJK instead of White Herb CC to immediately get the Unburden boost and use a stronger STAB? Just a thought.

 

[Shmirko]

No. The only thing happening is new pokemon being added. All of the fully evolved pokemon will start in OU like usual, but I heard NFEs that were tiered last generation that are being added now will be tiered where they were last generation. (Magneton starting in UU or Golbat in NU for example)

So, that means that we will start from scratch? Just like a new gen starts?