A rather irrelevant comparison since Gen 3 mechanics were completely different?
Anyway, bulky waters in Gen 3 - Suicune, Milotic, Vaporeon would have probably chewed Dracovish up as well, but again, irrelevant comparison.
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Anyway, bulky waters in Gen 3 - Suicune, Milotic, Vaporeon would have probably chewed Dracovish up as well, but again, irrelevant comparison.
For some reason I see people stating Ferrothorn as a consistent answer to banded Vish. This is wrong.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 150+ Def Ferrothorn: 171-201 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's with a good defense nature too. And if somebody wants to say, "But that's not max defense", Ferro shouldn't have to run max defense to not get 2HKOed by Vish. I think most people know this by now, but I don't want anybody to have this misconception in the future.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 150+ Def Ferrothorn: 171-201 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's with a good defense nature too. And if somebody wants to say, "But that's not max defense", Ferro shouldn't have to run max defense to not get 2HKOed by Vish. I think most people know this by now, but I don't want anybody to have this misconception in the future.
I've noticed that none of these calcs include rain, which is a mistake because rain exists - while not a top tier play style, rain (mostly semi-rain) is viable so it has to be considered. Seismitoed is the only answer in rain. Pex and Ferro were weak checks at best to begin with, so in my eyes they are hardly answers at all
Rain calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 212-250 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex in Rain: 276-326 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 237-279 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rain calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 212-250 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex in Rain: 276-326 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 237-279 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Honestly was beginning to wonder how G-Darmanitan got smashed by the ban hammer while the freakish fish got to stay. And the only anti-ban arguments I'm seeing are "it would be fair in other tiers" or "regardless, you should have water resists".
For the first argument, we're discussing Dracovish's presence in SS OU, not any of the other tiers. In tiers such as the National Dex, it might be ok (and I'd gladly let it stay because people are still going to use that fucking Mega Sab/Chansey stall core), but we're focused on SS OU for now.
For the second argument, Dracovish is capable of wiping the floor even with water resists such as Ferrothorn and Toxapex. The fact that max phsyical def Ferrothorn and Toxapex have to be run just to tank this abomination when they can still get 3HKO'd by something that they're supposed to resist (with respect to Banded Vish) shows that something is clearly wrong. Yeah, we have Seismitoad, but that was originally kind of mediocre back then, and now it's pretty much in almost every OU team because of Vish, and Banded Outrage 2HKO's the poor frog.
For the first argument, we're discussing Dracovish's presence in SS OU, not any of the other tiers. In tiers such as the National Dex, it might be ok (and I'd gladly let it stay because people are still going to use that fucking Mega Sab/Chansey stall core), but we're focused on SS OU for now.
For the second argument, Dracovish is capable of wiping the floor even with water resists such as Ferrothorn and Toxapex. The fact that max phsyical def Ferrothorn and Toxapex have to be run just to tank this abomination when they can still get 3HKO'd by something that they're supposed to resist (with respect to Banded Vish) shows that something is clearly wrong. Yeah, we have Seismitoad, but that was originally kind of mediocre back then, and now it's pretty much in almost every OU team because of Vish, and Banded Outrage 2HKO's the poor frog.
Howdy, long time no talk. I don't have a ton to say that hasn't already been said here, but I do have a smidge of original thought. Apologies in advance for a wall of text without fancy hide/unhide buttons; I forget how to do that stuff (pm me with assistance if you're nice).
I'm seeing a lot of talk about how Vish can/can't be countered or whatever, and that's really sort of besides the point. Not having a counter doesn't break a Pokemon; and for what it's worth, Vish isn't really broken to me. In my limited laddering this gen, I've never lost to a Dracovish--or rather, never lost because of one. What Dracovish is, however, is incredibly centralizing. Centralization is sort of one of those Smogon buzzwords that I think the meaning of which gets lost in these threads a lot.
Allow me to explain: Aegislash in gen 6 (I think, right? I was a philosophy major not history) was banned for being too centralizing. I was outspokenly against the Aegi ban back then, because I thought "It's not broken; Rocky Helmet Chesnaught counters it just fine (except for the subtoxic sets which were beat by a lot of my teams)"; but therein lies the problem. I had to devote a complete slot just to answer ONE Pokemon, and I had to find some really sub-optimal options to do so.
Dracovish isn't Aegislash per se--it doesn't run 3/4 wildly different options, each with their own specific set of answers--BUT, it does present the same exact type of constraint (another Smogon buzzword) on team building, as virtually everyone else has said. I find myself slotting stupid stuff like Seismotoad just because it puts a big obstacle in front of Fishious Rend spam, and I'd much rather put a better Stealth Rocker on my team--one that can do more than set rocks, threaten status, and lose me a lot of momentum.
Banning Aegi back then opened up A TON of the meta game, and banning Dracovish will absolutely do the same because we'll all essentially have a 6th Pokemon again and a ton of new strategies will open up. Sorry for the history lesson; just figured we could maybe focus less on "But it's countered/but it can't be countered" because those aren't really the issue at all with Dracovish.
tl;dr Vish isn't broken, it's just super centralizing and unhealthy.
I'm seeing a lot of talk about how Vish can/can't be countered or whatever, and that's really sort of besides the point. Not having a counter doesn't break a Pokemon; and for what it's worth, Vish isn't really broken to me. In my limited laddering this gen, I've never lost to a Dracovish--or rather, never lost because of one. What Dracovish is, however, is incredibly centralizing. Centralization is sort of one of those Smogon buzzwords that I think the meaning of which gets lost in these threads a lot.
Allow me to explain: Aegislash in gen 6 (I think, right? I was a philosophy major not history) was banned for being too centralizing. I was outspokenly against the Aegi ban back then, because I thought "It's not broken; Rocky Helmet Chesnaught counters it just fine (except for the subtoxic sets which were beat by a lot of my teams)"; but therein lies the problem. I had to devote a complete slot just to answer ONE Pokemon, and I had to find some really sub-optimal options to do so.
Dracovish isn't Aegislash per se--it doesn't run 3/4 wildly different options, each with their own specific set of answers--BUT, it does present the same exact type of constraint (another Smogon buzzword) on team building, as virtually everyone else has said. I find myself slotting stupid stuff like Seismotoad just because it puts a big obstacle in front of Fishious Rend spam, and I'd much rather put a better Stealth Rocker on my team--one that can do more than set rocks, threaten status, and lose me a lot of momentum.
Banning Aegi back then opened up A TON of the meta game, and banning Dracovish will absolutely do the same because we'll all essentially have a 6th Pokemon again and a ton of new strategies will open up. Sorry for the history lesson; just figured we could maybe focus less on "But it's countered/but it can't be countered" because those aren't really the issue at all with Dracovish.
tl;dr Vish isn't broken, it's just super centralizing and unhealthy.
Sure, we'll keep this one up to inform you that this has been roughly how "hard" reqs have been for well beyond the span of the current council's time on Smogon and it also applies to every single lower tier similarly. The fact of the matter is that before you blindly throw shade at the council that makes suspect like this possible in the first place, you should learn what you are talking about beforehand -- everything is as it is for a very calculated and well-thought out reason. Finally, you are still allowed to post and explain your reasoning in this thread without any consequence whatsoever; you just cannot vote unless you obtain an 82% GXE.
If you post again in this fashion, you are risking being infracted and having further posts deleted. Nobody respond to this as I do not want the thread to be derailed and I expect all further discussion to be on Dracovish and Dracovish only.
Thanks for your answer!
My point was to practically show what "consistent answer" means. The comparison is in fact irrelevant to weight Dracovish in the current metagame, but it doesn't fail to answer its purpose.
As for Milotic and Vaporeon, of course they could do the job as flawlessly as Mantine and Lapras, I just forgot to mention them. Suicune has a chance to be 3HKO'd (!!!) ad couldn't really touch him without calm mind, so it depends I guess (but everybody runs calm mind so no problem).
Again I want to clarify that the purpose of my little "research" was to simply show an environment where Dracovish wouldn't be toxic, nothing more.
P.S.
If anybody wanted to prove my results, the only tool needed is a common damage calculator were base stats and move power can be modified at will.
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This would be a valid point if stall wasn't viable, but that just isn't the case. Ferrothorn can wall anything without a super-effective move, and Toxapex can even wall most things WITH a super-effective move, and between recover, regenerator, and black sludge it can easily heal back to full for the next pokemon it needs to stall out. Band Dracovish is supposed to be the best wallbreaker in the tier and it struggles to even 2HKO them. Hippowdon gets destroyed by Dracovish and it's still on 29% of teams because it's so good at stalling (Dracovish is only at 18%). Clefable is on half of all teams and most are stalling with wish and protect. If Dracovish is banned this just gets worse.
This is a misreading of my post. My point is that Dracovish is not over-centralizing the meta, the meta itself is more centralized because of the smaller pool of pokemon and moves. Dracovish does not limit teambuilding, as it is a straightforward pokemon to battle against and the pokemon that check it are pokemon that need to be considered in teambuilding regardless of whether Dracovish is in the format or not. The main impact Dracovish has on teambuilding is the prevalence of Seismatoad, but as I said it is by no means necessary to beat Dracovish.
The main argument people have against the playstyle Dracovish promotes is that few things are able to switch into it. However this is the case for most choice users. This is simply not how you deal with these pokemon. If you've let them switch in safely without a plan for how to deal with them, you need to accept that you take a KO and revenge kill the choice user. This isn't unique to Dracovish.
Revenge killing has always been a part of competitive pokemon. The problem isn't that Dracovish is unhealthy for the meta, it's simply that people don't like it.
How does a Pokemon that forces you to use a smaller pool of counters than anything else not limit teambuilding? You quite literally give a prime example of why it impacts teambuilding later in your own paragraph. And it is true, Seismitoad does not always beat it, but counterplay is seldom linear in these games and it goes a long way towards deterring spamming of FRend, which is pretty much all it needs to do in the long haul.
The difference is a lot of other choice users promote middleground pivoting and low-risk counterplay whereas Dracovish is incredibly unforgiving. If you switch into Corv or Mandi expecting a Crunch/PFang and it uses FRend, then they're going down. If you switch a Mandibuzz into a Flash Cannon from Specs Aegi, you can recover it off. Yes, a lot of strong choice users exist, but they are nowhere near as broken or limiting as Dracovish.
Even without max attack Dracovish doesn't guarantee the 2HKO, and this is assuming ferrothorn is doing nothing in return when it regularly runs knock off and thunder wave, both of which deal with Dracovish.
Why not? The point of running Ferrothorn is to wall physical threats. What do you gain by investing in a different stat? If you make the choice to invest elsewhere you have to accept that you reduce its ability to take physical attacks.
It doesn't force you to use a smaller pool of counters. Seismatoad is simply the most obvious hard counter, but it is strictly not necessary to win. Dracovish is very easy to outplay even without a hard counter like Seismatoad
It takes 6% chip before ferrothorn cannot swap into a resisted physical hit with rocks up. (Below calc is set to 94% HP)
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This means that ferrothorn needs to recover ~50% before it leaves the field in order to switch in again without simply being 2HKOd.
You are basing your arguments on a perfect game state. Ferro switches in once, then does what? Clicks twave/knock off as a counter for ferro comes in? After that, it's no longer a Fisheous Rend switch-in, and it has only done 12% chip to Dracovish, because dracovish just swaps.
Ferrothorn has to invest this way to survive a specific, resisted, physical attack 2HKO consistently, from full. Pex has to invest the same way and dedicate a moveslot specifically to it. This is taking the literal best possible answer to something (a high-defense Pokemon that resists the move) and requiring additional investment to meet a bare minimum acceptible level.
Even with an answer, the counterplay is "easy" but also completely slanted in the Vish user's favor. An incorrect play around fisheous rend costs a pokemon. A correct play around Fisheous rend rewards you with a fairly passive Pokemon on your board.
Normally you would want to switch out your Dracovish if your secondary hit doesn't kill the Ferrothorn, because trading your Dracovish's breaking potential to get another 40% chip off of one defensive Pokemon is not ideal. Besides, that calc really shows that Dracovish can effectively 2HKO Ferrothorn with the slightest prior chip, and Dracovish appreciates hazard stacking teammates such as Ferrothorn itself and common Stealth Rock users such as Hippowdon.
Actually, Choice Band variants of Dracovish simply 2HKOes Seismitoad, so it's not necessarily a "hard counter". It is also extremely low-risk high-reward Pokemon, that each time there is a Dracovish on the field the opposing side is often forced to make a correct prediction to not lose a Pokemon. And if they guess correctly, Dracovish loses nothing as it easily switches out.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 217-256 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
To comment on your Dracovish is very easy to outplay, I agree to this to a certain extent as we have various offensive threats that can simply come in both Choice Scarf and Choice Band variants, then force it out. I think this has also been pointed out in the original OP. The problem here is you are discarding the fact that Pokemon is a 6 v 6 game, and Dracovish can easily switch out to any of its teammates, and while doing that its credibility as a breaker is often unaffected. Its often paired with pivots and stuff that can generate momentum for it, such as Clefable.
Seismitoad is poor as a "hard counter" to rely on throughout the game. It can be 2HKO'd by banded coverage moves and is easily worn down throughout the match. Trying to get Wish's from Clefable relies on 50/50's as Clefable can't safely Teleport in front of Vish. The only consistent counter I could think of is phys def Vaporeon, which is otherwise pretty terrible and only warrants usage due to Vish. And still doesn't counter a banded Vish with Outrage. The idea that Vish is easily to play around without a dedicated answer is absurd. Virtually every offensive mon outside of weather sweepers is destroyed by the Scarf set, and even bulky resists have a hard time with the Band set. If you add in rain then even Toxapex, Kommo-o and Ferrothorn fail to play around Vish. The sheer power of Rend relegates countering duties to only 4 real viable answers (water immunities), all of which open your team up to other wallbreakers like Kyurem and Zeraora.
This isn't those gens. The special threats those spreads are meant to counter, such as Greninja, Alakazam, Lele, don't exist in this gen. The main special attackers this gen all have fire coverage which will KO regardless of investment.
If it forces them to switch out then it's done it's job. How is that not a check?
The point is it can only do it once.
Yes, you force them out the first time assuming 0 prior chip, but after that it simply isn't effective anymore and gets killed if it tries to come in another rend
This has been said repeatedly. Ferrothorn is a check to band Dracovish. Toxapex is a check to band Dracovish. This assuming rocks + one layer of spikes is not up. That's literally all that is needed to keep them from doing even that.
Seismitoad is a check (albeit a much stronger one) to band Dracovish.
The complete lack of strong counters and limited availability of checks is precisely why we are arguing that band Dracovish puts too much strain on teambuilding.
Edit to add, this is why we are taking exception to your posts:
This is not revenge killing. Vish is coming in and it's claiming a kill unless you have Seismitoad, and not as a standard revenge killer. Revenge killers are able to be pivoted around (Corvi on Exca, Mandibuzz on Aegi ect..). If Vish is coming in, it's getting a kill even if you pivot.
If you don't have a Water Absorber (not including Ferro), Vish its matchup is pretty much guaranteed 2-3 kills every game.
Because a picture paints 1000 words, I have compiled all of Dracovish's OUPL appearances.
Dracovish Weeks 1-3: Bought to: 8 Used In: 7 Used and Won: 5.
Dracovish Weeks 4-7: Bought to: 10 Used In: 9 Used and Won: 6 (including 1 mirror).
So, the lessons we can learn from these 17 replays:
Dracovish Weeks 1-3: Bought to: 8 Used In: 7 Used and Won: 5.
Dracovish Weeks 4-7: Bought to: 10 Used In: 9 Used and Won: 6 (including 1 mirror).
Week 1 (Note: In Week 1 Arena Trap was legal):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-488048
prajpran's Dracovish broke through Ferrothorn with ease in the early game, taking heavy chip to do so. Bugzinator does sterling work preventing praj Wishpassing Vish back into the game, but Bugzinator's Hippowdon gives Vish two free switch-ins with Whirlwind, which means two more dead mons. Bugzinator resigned on turn 171, with his lone surviving offensive presence in Rotom-H out of PP.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1090952994-mx5tmx1e6ts3w22thgidlq10ehyzj81pw
Mix's Ferropex core successfully holds Vish at bay, aided by his Aegislash pushing Amphareixon to breaking point and forcing him to go hard Vish to try and stop it. One of only two examples among all of these replays where Vish's defensive counterplay actually works.
Weeks 2+3:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-488837
Lax's Vish blows right past Tace's Pex, with the rest of Lax's team chipping in to set up a Vish clean.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-489949
MetalGro$$ gets a full taste of the power of Banded Vish on webs. Even with a Protect turn for two lots of Leftovers, Ferrothorn doesn't stand a chance, and Vish's team just pick up the pieces from there.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-490005
Dracovish's other loss, caused by an unexpected Sub CM Primarina setting up on Corviknight. The game is over in 6 turns.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-493063
MetalGro$$ ends on the receiving end of Vish again, as his Hyper Offense is cleaned lategame by Scarf Vish.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-493169
You could forgive Vileman for thinking he would be fine in this game. With Clefable, Ferrothorn and the mighty Toad all to stop Askov's Dracovish, there was no chance of it making a big impact right? Askov's Kyurem had other ideas, freezing Ferrothorn. Once Toad got hit by Toxic and started to lose health, the writing was on the wall as Vileman was eventually forced into a 50/50 between going to Clef on an Outrage or a weakened Toad on a Rend. He got it wrong, lost Clef, and lost a long endgame.
Week 4 onwards:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-493856
Snow Jiniri found himself on the receiving end of Vish's wrath this time. With Zeraora KOing Pex, a couple of Teleports into Leftovers Vish ensured the swift downfall of his defensive core. His Kyurem put in sterling work to fight on, but without defenses Zeraora was always going to clean lategame. Note also how the Toad on Vish's team was total dead weight.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1103909284
This time Vileman had Vish covered, right? Clef, Toad, Pult to revenge it, even NP Hydreigon and Rotom-H to abuse it if it was Band. Well, he had Vish covered, but the Specs Aegi stfu itz a cartoon had paired with it... Not so much. Aegi forces Vileman to try and PP stall it with Wish Clef. stfu then unveils Grass Knot on his Toad to kill Vileman's Toad, and Vish ends up cleaning Vileman anyway XD. You just can't win when it comes to stopping Vish.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-496847
Dracovish Mirror Match! On paper at least. In practice it turned into "Togekiss 6-0s a team". Note again Toad being setup fodder for Togekiss and generally not useful.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-496174
To quote lax on turn 4, the moment TSpikes went down:
☆lax: I lose
His experimental balance featuring Kanto Rapidash of all mons was not able to handle ThePex armed with Toxic Spikes. Or on paper at least. Because LORD VISH took it upon itself to singlehandedly win this game by exploiting Toxapex, even after its Choice Band was Knocked Off. Isn't Pex meant to check Vish not vice versa???
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-498877
Ahh, Band Vish on Webs. Except the Webs get easily removed, and Vish is caught by a Baneful Bunker from Pex. So it just crits the Pex and takes it out from 80%. EZ.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-499110
c r u s t i's Dracovish must have been licking its lips at Team Preview. Wait... That is a max Def Primarina! Never mind, it loses lol.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-498818
Just the usual. Band Vish cleaving through a Toxapex. marcop9923 decides to sac Mandibuzz while there is a healthy Aegi on Robjr's team. Which, because Sod's Law, is Specs. The game is over, but Vish cleans house anyway.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1116268255-6rih66hp2plsyai4lrewuw4zmvhuq8zpw
More Band Vish on Webs. Ferro avoids the 2HKO, but that doesn't save it. The game is won by Corckscrew
's excellently played 4 Attacks Excadrill on the opposing side however, with Vish not having much chance to wreak havok.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-502144
Apparently, you can go hard Vish into LO King's Shield Aegi twice in one game. In spite of Toad lasting to the end, Vish somehow picks up a kill anyway!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-502189
A Rain team, which also featured in one earlier game I didn't show because Vish won without entering the field of play. Toxapex stalls out Rain Scarf Vish by spamming Recover, and then burns it first time with Scald. Mantine with nerfed Metronome gets walled by Clef and that's the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-488048
prajpran's Dracovish broke through Ferrothorn with ease in the early game, taking heavy chip to do so. Bugzinator does sterling work preventing praj Wishpassing Vish back into the game, but Bugzinator's Hippowdon gives Vish two free switch-ins with Whirlwind, which means two more dead mons. Bugzinator resigned on turn 171, with his lone surviving offensive presence in Rotom-H out of PP.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1090952994-mx5tmx1e6ts3w22thgidlq10ehyzj81pw
Mix's Ferropex core successfully holds Vish at bay, aided by his Aegislash pushing Amphareixon to breaking point and forcing him to go hard Vish to try and stop it. One of only two examples among all of these replays where Vish's defensive counterplay actually works.
Weeks 2+3:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-488837
Lax's Vish blows right past Tace's Pex, with the rest of Lax's team chipping in to set up a Vish clean.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-489949
MetalGro$$ gets a full taste of the power of Banded Vish on webs. Even with a Protect turn for two lots of Leftovers, Ferrothorn doesn't stand a chance, and Vish's team just pick up the pieces from there.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-490005
Dracovish's other loss, caused by an unexpected Sub CM Primarina setting up on Corviknight. The game is over in 6 turns.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-493063
MetalGro$$ ends on the receiving end of Vish again, as his Hyper Offense is cleaned lategame by Scarf Vish.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-493169
You could forgive Vileman for thinking he would be fine in this game. With Clefable, Ferrothorn and the mighty Toad all to stop Askov's Dracovish, there was no chance of it making a big impact right? Askov's Kyurem had other ideas, freezing Ferrothorn. Once Toad got hit by Toxic and started to lose health, the writing was on the wall as Vileman was eventually forced into a 50/50 between going to Clef on an Outrage or a weakened Toad on a Rend. He got it wrong, lost Clef, and lost a long endgame.
Week 4 onwards:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-493856
Snow Jiniri found himself on the receiving end of Vish's wrath this time. With Zeraora KOing Pex, a couple of Teleports into Leftovers Vish ensured the swift downfall of his defensive core. His Kyurem put in sterling work to fight on, but without defenses Zeraora was always going to clean lategame. Note also how the Toad on Vish's team was total dead weight.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1103909284
This time Vileman had Vish covered, right? Clef, Toad, Pult to revenge it, even NP Hydreigon and Rotom-H to abuse it if it was Band. Well, he had Vish covered, but the Specs Aegi stfu itz a cartoon had paired with it... Not so much. Aegi forces Vileman to try and PP stall it with Wish Clef. stfu then unveils Grass Knot on his Toad to kill Vileman's Toad, and Vish ends up cleaning Vileman anyway XD. You just can't win when it comes to stopping Vish.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-496847
Dracovish Mirror Match! On paper at least. In practice it turned into "Togekiss 6-0s a team". Note again Toad being setup fodder for Togekiss and generally not useful.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-496174
To quote lax on turn 4, the moment TSpikes went down:
☆lax: I lose
His experimental balance featuring Kanto Rapidash of all mons was not able to handle ThePex armed with Toxic Spikes. Or on paper at least. Because LORD VISH took it upon itself to singlehandedly win this game by exploiting Toxapex, even after its Choice Band was Knocked Off. Isn't Pex meant to check Vish not vice versa???
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-498877
Ahh, Band Vish on Webs. Except the Webs get easily removed, and Vish is caught by a Baneful Bunker from Pex. So it just crits the Pex and takes it out from 80%. EZ.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-499110
c r u s t i's Dracovish must have been licking its lips at Team Preview. Wait... That is a max Def Primarina! Never mind, it loses lol.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-498818
Just the usual. Band Vish cleaving through a Toxapex. marcop9923 decides to sac Mandibuzz while there is a healthy Aegi on Robjr's team. Which, because Sod's Law, is Specs. The game is over, but Vish cleans house anyway.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1116268255-6rih66hp2plsyai4lrewuw4zmvhuq8zpw
More Band Vish on Webs. Ferro avoids the 2HKO, but that doesn't save it. The game is won by Corckscrew
's excellently played 4 Attacks Excadrill on the opposing side however, with Vish not having much chance to wreak havok.https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-502144
Apparently, you can go hard Vish into LO King's Shield Aegi twice in one game. In spite of Toad lasting to the end, Vish somehow picks up a kill anyway!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-502189
A Rain team, which also featured in one earlier game I didn't show because Vish won without entering the field of play. Toxapex stalls out Rain Scarf Vish by spamming Recover, and then burns it first time with Scald. Mantine with nerfed Metronome gets walled by Clef and that's the game.
- Toxapex is a very soft CHECK to Dracovish. That means it CANNOT switch in. Even if it has Baneful Bunker, chances are you're saccing something anyway. And when Vish starts spamming Psychic Fangs or switching moves... Ouch.
- The most Ferrothorn can do is sac itself to cripple Vish. If the Vish player wants Ferro dead, it is dead. Ferro's chances of forcing out a determined Band Vish are 0. In combination, Pex can Bunker Vish then Ferro can finish it off with Iron Barbs, but that does imply saccing one or the other to get the job done.
- Toad is often dead weight against the rest of Vish's team, and easy to status or lure with Grass coverage. Covering Vish can often leave your team open to other threats, causing a guessing game for what your opponent is bringing.
- Niche Water Absorbers just aren't used enough in practice to run into Vish. They have been used in OUPL, they just haven't actually faced a Vish.
- Vish's few offensive checks suffer from several issues. Of course they can't switch in, and some have to play the band or scarf guessing game.
- Vish's reasonable bulk and great typing give it many opportunities to switch in at the risk of compromising its health.
- Relying on offensive pressure to keep Vish at bay is a useless tactic, as Vish only needs one or two free turns to rip your team apart. One Teleport, slow U-turn or predicted Protect is all it takes to unleash LORD VISH.
- Even if you have the correct counterplay, games can often come down to a coin toss between going to a Fairy on Outrage or a weakened Toad on Rend. No matter how well you build your team, there is literally no way to avoid this scenario. Even something as simple as doubling out on Vish after you correctly predict Rend could instantly lose you a mon.
What you described is balance, not stall. You can't have a team only focused on defensive play thanks to fish and it's friends (remember, both players have teams, and mos fish teams are designed to break the core that dracovish has trouble with). Without revenge killing and no way to mantain hazards consistently (as most offence run mons that make this difficult), band fish destroys stall almost by itsel (or leaves the door open for the rest of the team)
Also, the hippo and clef argument are not really correct. Hippo is on 29% of teams because it is agood rocker and blanket check to physical attackers not named dracovish. If you run hippo running a seismitoad is redundant, so you are forced to run only pex and ferro to cover for fish. Just the fact I had to say that shows the impact this mon has: you are forced into the same 3 pokemon if you want a chance to deal with it. Banning him would allow balance to use other pokemon in their teams and offense to open up their options against those mons.
Clef by itself is a problem that I hope it gets adressed in due time, but it is not really the focus right now (if anything, banning fish may be the thing that pushes clef over the top)
A minor nitpick, but I personally don't see the arguments "Toxapex/Ferrothorn really wants to be running SpDef" or "A mediocre Pokémon like Seismitoed is only popular because of Dracovish" as good pro-ban arguments. Mediocre Pokémon and sets can become good because of the Pokémon in the metagame. It doesn't matter if Seismitoed or physically defensive Ferrothorn and Toxapex are not the most optimal Pokémon or sets. If Fiscious Rend and Dracovish becomes a special attacker so Ferrothorn and Pex can run their "optimal" sets, does that magically make Dracovish less overcentralizing even if those things are good regardless of Dracovish?
At this point, to me, it doesn't seem like there's a strong argument for keeping vish in the tier. The responses in favor of it remaining seem more like they're going from highly questionable to just straight false, specifically how effectively vish is checked, and trying to downplay hard calcs. If you need an example, of how centralizing it has been you can look at the changelog for sample teams. A literal record that can be looked back upon to see what changed.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-sample-teams.3657382/post-8340972
Even as far back as the start of the gen, you can see how teams were using 1-3 ways to potentially deal with dracovish, some only even having the proven inconsistent Ferrothorn, or Toxapex. Throughout it all though, seismatoad is one of the constants you'll see. And highlighting how mediocore seismatoad is as a mon is a good point to bring up, as people have stated, it doesn't even truly check it, it's main purpose is to deter rend spam, beyond that it doesn't really offer anything that some other mon also isn't capable of or just outright does better. If a mon is mainly seeing usage for being an inconsistent deterrent at best, that's a legitimate issue.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ou-sample-teams.3657382/post-8340972
Even as far back as the start of the gen, you can see how teams were using 1-3 ways to potentially deal with dracovish, some only even having the proven inconsistent Ferrothorn, or Toxapex. Throughout it all though, seismatoad is one of the constants you'll see. And highlighting how mediocore seismatoad is as a mon is a good point to bring up, as people have stated, it doesn't even truly check it, it's main purpose is to deter rend spam, beyond that it doesn't really offer anything that some other mon also isn't capable of or just outright does better. If a mon is mainly seeing usage for being an inconsistent deterrent at best, that's a legitimate issue.
I agree with the previous post, there have been plenty of pokemon that have been in OU just because they have a great match up against one pokemon. Cough cough gen 3 Magneton. Every pokemon is going to affect the meta in some way. Yes, Dracovish is affecting it more than others, but it's fine for people to adapt to a specific mon. I don't think Dracovish should be banned. I agree that it's really annoying, but there are checks that can serve other purposes, and therefore are not dead weight if you don't face a Dracovish.
Also, has anybody tried to use Rotom-W against it? Idk if it would work or not since I haven't tried it myself, but I think it would be a very good check that we know from past gens can potentially do well in OU.
Also, has anybody tried to use Rotom-W against it? Idk if it would work or not since I haven't tried it myself, but I think it would be a very good check that we know from past gens can potentially do well in OU.
Dracovish (scarf) against Rotom-W:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
To successfully counter Dracovish you have to buff its def and rely on will-o-wisp not missing the first time you use it. Otherwise goodbye.
And buffing rotom def would mean making him slower. Then CB Dracovish would eat him alive.
Dracovish (scarf):
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dracovish (CB):
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 182-215 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And running this set would weaken Rotom a lot
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