Metagame np: SS DOU Stage 2.5: Next Steps

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MajorBowman

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Now that we've had some time to let the dust from Isle of Armor settle, it's time to get back to work. We've had a lot of Pokemon return to the metagame, some with new toys, and we've also seen the addition of Urshifu, who seems to be performing pretty well so far. While there aren't any huge, glaring problems with the metagame (yet, at least), there was plenty of talk before the DLC release of reintroducing some previously banned elements to the metagame, and we want to talk about that.

These are the current bans beyond the obvious "never see the light of day" legendaries:
  • Jirachi
  • Kyurem-B
  • Marshadow
  • Melmetal
  • Beat Up
  • Gravity + Sleep
  • Dynamax

The most controversial and impactful of these is pretty clearly Dynamax. While Dynamax was indeed banned by a public suspect vote, the vote was far from a landslide. As such, the DOU Council discussed reexamining Dynamax before possibly reintroducing banned Pokemon because of another addition to Sword and Shield via Isle of Armor - Max Soup. This in-game item gives the Gigantamax Factor to any Pokemon that can have it (Charizard, Hatterene, Butterfree, etc), which means that you are no longer restricted to only being able to Gigantamax Pokemon you caught in Max Raids.

While this might seem irrelevant to DOU tiering, this actually unlocks another option for tiering Dynamax - limiting every Pokemon to Dynamax Level 0. Previously, all Gigantamax Pokemon (other than the gift Charmander, Eevee, and Pikachu you could get throughout the game and maybe more idk I'm not an encyclopedia) could only be obtained at Dynamax Levels greater than 0, which meant that trying to restrict Dynamax to Dynamax Level 0 when we first tested Dynamax would have artificially banned all Gigantamax. The council did not think that was a good idea at the time, but now it is no longer an issue.

The only difference between a Pokemon at Dynamax Level 0 and Dynamax Level 10 is the HP boost it receives when it Dynamaxes. At Level 10, the HP stat is doubled, while it is only increased by 50% at Level 0. This helps to alleviate the nigh invincibility of Dynamax Pokemon, one of the two overarching issues that led to Dynamax's ban. Note that there is no effect on the max moves at all; all secondary effects are the same, and there is no change in their base power based on Dynamax Level.

Given all of this, the general consensus of the DOU Council is that the next course of action should be to suspect test Dynamax once again, but this time restricting every Pokemon to Dynamax Level 0. Such a decision has pretty big impacts on future DOU tiering decisions, so it only makes sense to get this out of the way and move forward based on its results. Reintroducing Dynamax potentially reignites some other problematic elements of the pre-Dynamax ban metagame, Weakness Policy and Charizard being the main examples brought up in that np thread, so if the result of a Dynamax retest is to unban it, the DOU Council would quickly look to identify and eliminate such problematic elements in the appropriate fashion.

The purpose of this thread is to gauge interest. This is not an official announcement of a suspect test, nor is it a commitment to a suspect test. The DOU Council just wants to make sure everyone is on the same page before we tackle any tiering decisions in a post-DLC metagame. Looking forward to some good discussion!
 

GenOne

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I think that a Dynamax re-suspect with a cap on the Dynamax level is probably the right next step out of anything listed, but the new meta is just starting to settle and I think it’d be nice to give it a bit more time as is.

It’s also pretty hard to know whether reintroducing Dynamax would be good or not without playing some games with it first. Any chance we could host some scheduled room tours (or something along those lines) beforehand with Dynamax enabled so people can experience that kind of metagame? Just an idea.
 

Paraplegic

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It is quickly becoming apparent that this meta is dominated by the overwhelmingly good support options we have relative to the offensive tools at our disposal. There is the noticeably egregious example of blastoise, but a number of defensive/support orientated options we have access to right now are straight up bonkers for the average power level of the meta. Think about the weezings, amoonguss, chanseys, and rillabooms that are everywhere. They are becoming as prominent as they are because you can combine them to form some incredibly hard to break cores that suck all momentum away from the opponent while they slowly pivot around gaining small advantage after small advantage that start compounding really fast. While talking to qsns last night, I coined the term "rachi syndrome" to describe the current state of things with how oppressive the support side of the meta is, and I really think its an apt comparison considering how much blastoise especially, but all the rest of the support cast combined too, constricts gameplay and teambuilding in a manner not dissimilar to the effects rachi had on metagames where it was allowed in the past. With all this in mind, I fully support re-suspecting dmax at max level 0, because I think, provided we also deal with the already noted particularly stupid elements associated with dmax in the forms of gmax charizard and weakness policy when freeing it, it will likely come to be seen as a positive re-addition to the meta that will help re-balance the power dynamics between offense and support in a way that would likely make for much healthier gameplay overall. Freeing dmax also would further serve to help with other issues we've been dealing with since it was banned, most notably sleep, which has been insanely powerful ever since we stopped being able to activate terrains on command, but also things like fake out being so common and not easy to punish(this ones not really an issue to be solved, more so a quality of life improvement for the meta imo). It would even serve to make the recent terrain wars that have arisen as a result of the release of expanding force and grassy surge rillaboom far more manageable and engaging. I think that at least giving dmax a chance should totally happen, and am excited af to see how this all develops and unfolds!
 

MajorBowman

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It’s also pretty hard to know whether reintroducing Dynamax would be good or not without playing some games with it first. Any chance we could host some scheduled room tours (or something along those lines) beforehand with Dynamax enabled so people can experience that kind of metagame? Just an idea.
Good timing, right before you posted this Hogg suggested that we take the DPP Latias route and have a ladder with dynamax freed for a couple before a potential test just to give people a chance to play/watch a bunch of games and form a more well-informed opinion. I love this idea, we could theoretically get the ladder up soon and have the test over July 17-26, for example.
 

sawamura

Banned deucer.
I think that a Dynamax re-suspect with a cap on the Dynamax level is probably the right next step out of anything listed, but the new meta is just starting to settle and I think it’d be nice to give it a bit more time as is.

It’s also pretty hard to know whether reintroducing Dynamax would be good or not without playing some games with it first. Any chance we could host some scheduled room tours (or something along those lines) beforehand with Dynamax enabled so people can experience that kind of metagame? Just an idea.
I perfectly agree with you GenOne. However, I am not a fan of Dynamax, although with the inclusion of this Fat Meta we can deduce that the option of carrying bulky equipment is really something that many are choosing as the core between Rillaboom-Blastoise-Chansey and the truth with incineroar makes a Core almost Unbreakable and I think seeing suspicious evidence of this type of game would be appropriate as long as As GenOne says "we have to give it some time to see how the target keeps coming up." Urshifu doesn't convince me at all about Dynamax and more, if Volcarona runs into so many Follow Me and Bulky Mons, but you have to give it a try in due course. This is just my personal opinion, the truth, I hated that Playstyle died, but I do see that there is an opportunity to rejoin. will vote in favor in that case, but they would be minimal possibilities.
 
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I’m a bit on the fence about this, seeing how monstrous Dynamax was in the past and how some past abusers of the mechanic could run wild again. However, lowering the Dynamax level was something I had thought of and proposed back during the initial suspect. Now that its actually possible to do this, I’m curious as to how things will play out.

Lowering the HP buff will make the neigh-unkillable Giants a great deal more managable in the long run. And the added punch of Max Moves will add to nerfing the Psychic/Grassy terrain running wild and breaking down the fat cores like Chansey/Weezus/Rillaboom/Fat Filler, which atm are neigh-impregnable with the current power level we have access to
#FreeMelmetal

The only big concern is, will the Giants have TOO much power behind their blows? We’ve seen the absolute bedlam that things such as Gmax Charizard (Quickban plz?), Rhyperior, Gmax Hatterene (LOL stop hitting yourself), Lapras (#FreeScreens), Excadrill, CritKiss, Gmax Coalossal if you want to be bad (or me, I’m bad), Gmax Butterfree (Hax everywhere), and Dragapult rained down on the meta. While they may be easier to knock over, that won’t make them any less powerful

And on top of this, from my exp playing a bit of the new VGC meta, we have some new additions on the table such as the other two Kanto starters with their own built-in chip damage, Rillaboom and Cinderace who respectively come with one getting their own pre-set terrain and the other getting omni-STAB on ALL Max moves on top of both having a Mold Breaker-infused G-Max move on crack, the two Urshifu who entirely invalidate Protect and even f*cking Max Guard, Marowak-A who could be incredible under TR, and both Kingdra & Volcarona who could be an absolute nightmare if they can get going right.

I’m not going to say that we can’t deal with power on this level, but that level of ridiculousness IS just a bit concerning. But I AM fully in favor of seeing how this goes. Maybe we’ll be in for a surprise. Dynamax just may be our salvation from a doomed metagame

And maybe Gmax Corviknight can find a niche and not be terrible by deleting terrains & hazards
 
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Platinum God n1n1

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I think Kyurem-B should have had a suspect by now. As I mentioned before, its a slightly bulkier Kyurem with some additional moves. Given that Kyurem usage is relatively low to some other top teir mons, I do not see why it has not been suspected already.

Jirachi and Marsh have much stronger cases to be banned. But I've always been in favor of giving what seems like OP mons at least a chance of being suspected properly. Properly meaning more than a ladder, maybe a "drop an uber" style mini tour in addition to the ladder. If they are really broken then stay banned, if not then at least we know for sure and will probably have fun building and playing with them in a tour to find out
 
As someone who's basically new, why was Dynamax banned in the first place? From what I remember playing when SwSh came out, it was a strong win condition that enabled sweeps (stuff like Brave Bird + Close Combat Braviary comes to mind), but it didn't it never struck me as broken in the early meta. What Pokemon and sets made it too strong? Also, the problem that people seem to have right now with the meta is that it's too bulky and defensively oriented. Would reintroducing Dynamax really solve those issues?
 
I think retesting Dynamax is a step in the right direction. I feel like it went under the microscope at the wrong time; when Gothitelle was a tier 1 mon and trapping exacerbated all of the issues with Dynamax and Melmetal was running around KOing things that didn't dynamax in front of it. Now, however, we can limit exactly what Dynamax can do. No longer can offensive mons become hard to blow up for three turns; rather they get a more modest boost to their bulk while also giving offensive mons the leeway to try and hit your opponent's bulky Pokemon better.

I feel like we went from a meta with a mild amount of bulk to one with a huge amount of bulk over night and not nearly enough power to adapt to the new bulk. New additions like Volcarona didn't cut it with a Chansey in front of them; the closest I feel I've gotten to a proper breaker is Alolan Marowak. I feel- and genuinely hope- that reintroducing dynamax will allow more variety in what Pokemon can and cannot break through bulk.

Plus it means we get back genuinely cool teambuilds like Gigantimax Lapras support. I've honestly been wanting to try that next to Goggles Volc and that prospect is enough to make me excited.
 
One concern regarding dynamax that came up in a discussion that I had with people was that 1.5x Boost in HP might not be enough for dynamax mons to survive opposing dynamax. Maybe when that test ladder is up, can we take feedback regarding the HP boost to see where in the 1.5-2x range people feel dynamax may be balanced?
 
One concern regarding dynamax that came up in a discussion that I had with people was that 1.5x Boost in HP might not be enough for dynamax mons to survive opposing dynamax. Maybe when that test ladder is up, can we take feedback regarding the HP boost to see where in the 1.5-2x range people feel dynamax may be balanced?
this feels rather arbitrary
while having 0 candies is also arbitrary its also a clear dyna candied / no dyna candied case that (from what i've seen from this thread, im not in the doubles community) is agreed upon
 
I'm really glad I've had the opportunity to play with the Dynamax in the roomtours, so thanks to Marty & the TLs for making that possible.

That being said, 1.5x max would be a mistake to free. Max Level 0 basically takes away the "defensive Dynamax" option from the opposing player, as you're able to just take OHKOs or very clean 2HKOs on their Dynamaxed Pokemon. I've mostly been jamming games with Cinderace, which seriously enjoys being able to outspeed and threaten nearly everything in the metagame, but I don't think this is specifically a Cinderace problem. Things like GMax Venusaur, Shell Smash GMax Blastoise, and good old Togekiss can snowball the game completely out of control if the defensive Dynamax option is obselete because they really aren't pressured by normal Pokemon that much either. There are definitely ways to combat a Dynamaxed Pokemon that people probably aren't taking advantage of - Burning Jealousy / Lash Out Incineroar, increased speed control, etc. However, the games usually become too suffocating for an opponent to appropriately respond if you're able to offensively Dynamax first, and in addition to that, the myriad of fantastic support options in the tier (especially Fake Out to prevent Incineroar's moves / opposing speed control) often make punishing an early Dynamax extremely difficult.

I'd probably like to see Dynamax suspected after the second DLC patch drops to guarantee a settled metagame, but with 2x health to give the mechanic another fair chance - I think it adds a lot of interesting dynamics to the game & looking back at it, probably isn't broken to me if we remove the bad elements as soon as possible.
 

GenOne

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qsns made most of the points that were on my mind, and I also want to give Marty and the TLs a shoutout for making it possible to test this.

Before seeing Max Level 0 Dynamax in action, I was in favour of having Dynamax banned for pretty much all the reasons listed in this NP thread, so I'm not going to re-hash them here. The only variable that changes with Max Level 0 is the HP multiplier being set at 150%, down from 200%, and in theory this is supposed to make Dynamaxed mons less OP because they are easier to take down. Like qsns said though, this really just takes away your "defensive Dynamax" option and makes the whole mechanic even more of a momentum swing, since a well-positioned Dynamax attacker can just steamroll through everything including opposing Dynamax targets. So suffice it to say, I don't feel like limiting the Max Level fixes what we thought it would with the mechanic.

Another pro-Dynamax argument I've been seeing post-Dynamax ban is the complaint that there are too many viable Fake Out supporters now, and re-introducing Dynamax would help counter them by being Fake Out immune. In my experience, Max Level 0 games don't make the omnipresence of Fake Out any less noticiable. If anything, the Dynamaxed Pokemon on both sides of the battlefield just benefit more from being partnered with a revolving door of Fake Out + U-Volt-Flip supporters, essentially turning as much as 2/3 of your Dynamax turns into a 1vs1 matchup on the target of your choice.

I think as a general rule, it's worth re-testing the Dynamax mechanic after each DLC drop, but my initial impression is that Dynamax would impose all the same problems in the IOA metagame as the previous one, regardless of what the Dynamax level is set to.

That said, I'm willing to be persuaded by a good pro-Dynamax argument, as my stance isn't completely set in stone. I'm just voicing my first impressions.
 
I suppose I should give my own thoughts on this now.

After playing around with Lv. 0 Dynamax in the meta for a bit, my feelings on Dynamax being pretty dumb haven’t entirely changed but have changed a little bit. The opportunity cost is almost nonexistent, and the near instantaneous free shifts in momentum are pretty ludicrous. But the fact that the HP nerf has allowed for giant mons to be easily revenge killed or at least much more easily stood up to is a bit of a nice touch. In addition to that, set creativity and facilitation of a few new strategies has gotten a slight boost as well imo

However, while the HP gain did make Giants easier to handle, this really did not in any way fix the grievous matchup issues we have that comes along with it. While going big can radically shift momentum in your favor pretty much for free, it can also further bury an opponent that’s already on the defensive of in a very unfavorable position. Against highly skilled players, this is already a task to overcome in its own right, but Dynamax makes these interactions seemingly hopeless. Especially if you’ve already blown yours earlier in the game, or you have to be forced into using yours in order to not get put down right then and there. And even then, like QSNS has stated, Dynamaxing yourself doesn’t really have much of a chance to bail you out of a shitty situation like before due to the bulk being less. So unless your own Giant can just bully its way through the opponent’s side including their own Giant (which is unlikely), you’re essentially just wasting your time. I personally feel any metagame trying to pass as “balanced” shouldn’t be quite that polarizing. So with that, I don’t think lowering the HP buff really changes much, and if so not really for the positive


It also lends to more HO based strategies, where you could potentially go big very early on or even right from the start and bulldoze your way through most of your opponents’s team if you have the mu advantage. We’ve seen this happen many times, especially during the plague known as Gigantamax Charizard. And it almost seems like this is even easier than before, but that could just be me being bad

I will also admit that while still pretty stupid, Max has made the meta quite a bit more fun and less dry imo. Winning or losing, its definitely brought back that touch of spice that’s feels so long missed that Mega Evolution and even (*cringe*) Z-Moves Added to the metagame. Not saying either of those two mechanics were anywhere close to as degenerate as Dynamax is, and ofc this has nothing to do with the actual argument, but you catch my drift

On top of that, a few of the new IoA tutor moves like Burning Jealousy has made it at least somewhat possible to punish Dynamax just a bit.

In the end, with all this in mind, it almost feels as if Gen 8 was almost entirely designed to force us to work around this frankly ludicrous mechanic, and the meta is pretty much always going to feel a bit hollow and lopsided without it around imo. These are pretty much the ONLY reasons why I’m willing to give this degenerate shit a chance
 
There is now a separate ladder with Dynamax (Level 0) enabled! Massive thanks to Marty for the help. Hopefully this will allow everyone to get some more experience, keep the discussion going!
Hi,
Despite me being more involved with VGC at this moment, I Will return soon to practice for the 23 rd August DOU Tournament, I'd like to please know when we will know in which of the two formats ((Lvl 0 or normal) ) the tournament will take place.

P. S. : I am worried about the gen 7 DOU tournament, am I still in despite there not having been a rival available for the first 2 rounds?
 

Nails

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Choice Band Dark Urshifu is broken. It kills stuff with extremely limited counterplay that is at best "guess which move it clicks and go to the resist", but often is not even that good because it has two slots that it can target. Wicked Blow is incredible, offering great neutral coverage and granting it an immunity to Intimidate while it's spamming its primary stab attack which can ohko significant portions of the format (especially with a HH boost). Fighting/Dark is a classical combination of typings with nearly unresisted coverage, and Close Combat/Drain Punch are both very potent secondary stab moves. Fairies, the only mons that resists its stabs can be covered neatly with Iron Head or U-turned on to offer a teammate a favorable position. Notably, U-turn is often a slightly risky play for other mons as they can hit into a Protect and be left exposed to a hit from the partner, but Urshifu is always guaranteed a switch out. Aside from its offensive potency, it has 100/100/60 defenses, which translates to very solid physical bulk and mediocre but not crippling special bulk.

It really cannot be overstated how much Urshifu warps the game. The certainty with which it can push damage and take kills is unmatched; counterplay is often limited to outspeeding and OHKOing it, which is challenging given its solid enough speed tier and strong physical bulk. Typical avenues for controlling physical damage such as Intimidate, Stat Boosting, or Screens are rendered useless by Wicked Blow. I feel like I'm kind of talking in circles and repeating myself, because there isn't too much to say about it. It's gonna hit you, and you're gonna die. Nothing else gets to do that with anything approaching the consistency and power of Dark Urshifu. Urshifu Single Strike in a class of its own and needs to be banned.

A note on the other form: Water Urshifu is less problematic for a couple reasons which are pretty much all related to its typing. Water/Fighting is less synergistic than Dark/Fighting, and it's walled by Pokemon like Amoonguss, Venusaur, and it can't freely click its best stab move in front of Blastoise. It's weak to Grassy Glide, which allows it to be picked off in many situations where Dark Urshifu would be safe. Its priority move is also generally worse; while Aqua Jet that hits through Protect has better interactions than Sucker Punch which fails on Protect, the base power on Sucker Punch is generally more useful. It might eventually become problematic for many of the same reasons that Dark Urshifu currently is, but with how the meta stands it's barely a factor.
 

MajorBowman

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Now that we've had the Dynamax Level 0 ladder up for a little while and people have had the chance to play with it, the general consensus seems to be that it's no less stupid than standard Dynamax. As such, there probably isn't much point in proceeding with a full suspect test.

Given that, the council's attention has now (mostly) turned to Single Strike Urshifu (the Dark one). Blessed by a combination of a great stat line, a crazy ability, and a crazy signature move, Urshifu is undeniably one of the strongest Pokemon in the metagame right now. As such, the council is leaning towards a Single Strike Urshifu suspect test in the near future. Note that we are only talking about Single Strike (the dark one) and not Rapid Strike (the water one); the two different forms are treated as different Pokemon for the sake of tiering.

Unless there is strong opposition to this plan, we will likely move ahead with this suspect test soon. Let us know what you think!
 
Damn. Press F for all the fun stuff. This meta stays getting cucked...
But seriously, I do agree with this. Lowering the Dynamax level was definitely a mistake. While Dynamax isn’t as dumb as I remember it being, likely because I’ve just gotten used to it, I believe it should be full Lv 10 or nothing. I’d like to see it get a proper test after the next wave of DLC. Then we can see just what we’re working with with a complete list of mons.

As for Saitama here, I can Also agree, tho I personally while I think its worthy of a suspect, I don’t think it’s completely broken. Yes, it hits very hard. Wicked Blow is very stupid. But it certainly isn’t an end-all force.
 
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This is my first post so i would appreciate any advice. :)

The DLC has given us 18 new moves, and most of them have had large impacts on the metagame. One of the most notable is Grassy Glide Rillaboom, which turned out to be more of a one mon buff. Another extremely threatening move is Expanding Force. Since the release, Indeedee paired with Alakazam with Scarf, Life Orb, with alakazam’s new nasty plot or Specs, any non psychic resist or Dark Types will most likely be OHKOed or 2HKOed. The only decent counter is Ferrothorn, which could potentially also fall to Indeedee’s Mystical Fire; or Urshifu-Single Strike, which is most likely to KO Alakazam or Indeedee, but be Dazzling Gleamed by the other.

Another common user of Expanding Force is Alolan Raichu. Some I’ve seen running sets with both electric and psychic terrain. Rising Voltage plus Expanding force and the speed boost from Surge Surfer. I find both of these pokemon with expanding force kinda annoying since they’re running around like wild. Other terrain setters could come in and replace the terrain but its kinda annoying knowing i must put terrain control on every team, either its another terrain setter or the mediocre steel roller. Trick Room could also be a good counter but setting it up is also a risk in on itself.

would anything be done so in this regard? i don’t like being too restricted in teambuilding. It’s fine if it stays tho.
 

Level 51

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This is my first post so i would appreciate any advice. :)

The DLC has given us 18 new moves, and most of them have had large impacts on the metagame. One of the most notable is Grassy Glide Rillaboom, which turned out to be more of a one mon buff. Another extremely threatening move is Expanding Force. Since the release, Indeedee paired with Alakazam with Scarf, Life Orb, with alakazam’s new nasty plot or Specs, any non psychic resist or Dark Types will most likely be OHKOed or 2HKOed. The only decent counter is Ferrothorn, which could potentially also fall to Indeedee’s Mystical Fire; or Urshifu-Single Strike, which is most likely to KO Alakazam or Indeedee, but be Dazzling Gleamed by the other.

Another common user of Expanding Force is Alolan Raichu. Some I’ve seen running sets with both electric and psychic terrain. Rising Voltage plus Expanding force and the speed boost from Surge Surfer. I find both of these pokemon with expanding force kinda annoying since they’re running around like wild. Other terrain setters could come in and replace the terrain but its kinda annoying knowing i must put terrain control on every team, either its another terrain setter or the mediocre steel roller. Trick Room could also be a good counter but setting it up is also a risk in on itself.

would anything be done so in this regard? i don’t like being too restricted in teambuilding. It’s fine if it stays tho.
Hi, I've moved this thread to the np (metagame discussion) thread. For future discussions of metagame trends and/or potential bans please default to this thread (except in some exceptional circumstances, probably, though I can't think of any right now.)

To address the actual point of this post, I think sufficient counterplay to Psyspam exists, both offensively and defensively. Most Indeedee/Alakazam cores run like LO or Sash on both Pokemon, so most Scarf Pokemon (especially physical attackers, e.g. Dracovish, Urshifu) can outspeed and heavily chunk if not outright OHKO both of these Pokemon. A slower Rillaboom getting Grassy Terrain in can also probably OHKO them with Grassy Glide. Defensively, Rillaboom can override their terrain with Grassy Surge, and Gothitelle is also very strong against them, enabling this terrain override by trapping Indeedee or various abusers in for a suitable ally to deal with (as well as potentially setting TR up against them).

Note that none of the Pokemon I've mentioned is a particularly janky or niche pick, so in my opinion Psyspam doesn't seem particularly restrictive of teambuilding at the moment. In terms of a suspect, I feel there are definitely other Pokemon out there which are more immediate candidates, such as maybe Urshifu or Volcarona.
 
Now that we've had the Dynamax Level 0 ladder up for a little while and people have had the chance to play with it, the general consensus seems to be that it's no less stupid than standard Dynamax. As such, there probably isn't much point in proceeding with a full suspect test.

Given that, the council's attention has now (mostly) turned to Single Strike Urshifu (the Dark one). Blessed by a combination of a great stat line, a crazy ability, and a crazy signature move, Urshifu is undeniably one of the strongest Pokemon in the metagame right now. As such, the council is leaning towards a Single Strike Urshifu suspect test in the near future. Note that we are only talking about Single Strike (the dark one) and not Rapid Strike (the water one); the two different forms are treated as different Pokemon for the sake of tiering.

Unless there is strong opposition to this plan, we will likely move ahead with this suspect test soon. Let us know what you think!
Urshifu Single strike is kinda crazy imo, cuz most of them just throw on a choice scarf and just KO everything with wicked blow. the only counter i can think of is a faster scarfer with a special fairy move, and only ribombee and a ninetales fill this role and simultaneously fling others as support and screen setter. A ban would be nice, and i like the decision of separating the 2 urshifus, cuz i feel like rapid strike is very different from single strike.
 

sawamura

Banned deucer.
The next point to address is well justified. Through the next advancement of the MetaGame He began the characteristics that Urshifu Dark can Grant the Simple fact of Lowering VR to 2 mons that for my, to my liking and my complete Trust as is Incineroar and Gothitelle has influenced my way of Playing not In addition Urshifu has an ability that allows him to Go Over Over the Protecs something that can be completely Annoying and effective, his Exorbitant Attack allows him to give an amount of Damage in large quantities, few are the Things that can enter Urshifu as it is Weezing Galar, A large amount of HP which allows it to hold Grassy Glide, access to poison Jab, Rock Slide (taking into account volcarona) and the ability to Pivot with U-turn Create a mon that excels by Much, this mon can exceed the expectations of competitive players and of course, a well deserved Suspect test can decide it. With the following DLC we could retake his test again knowing that other monsters will return but for now it is time to perform a Suspect to see how the community of doubles reacts
 
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