np: SS UU Stage 5: Change is Gonna Come (Diggersby & Venusaur BANNED)

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I've seen quite a few people talking about Scolipede and Grimmsnarl following the first round of bans. However, I would like to highlight another threat I've been a bit wary of: Kyurem. While it admittedly is not as broken as I initially anticipated, I feel that this thing has the potential to be problematic for the tier. Starting with it's main set:
1594048860875.png

Kyurem w/Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
252 SpA/4 SpD/252 Speed; Timid
  • Ice Beam
  • Freeze Dry
  • Draco Meteor
  • Earth Power
This was Kyurem's main set in OU, and I have no doubt it will continue its usage in UU. Why? Well, because according to damage calcs, this set is guaranteed to OHKO or 2HKO every mon in the tier except Blissey, Bronzong and Snorlax! This means that this set can take out all but three mons, one of which isn't even that good in UU. That alone doesn't mean Rem is unhealthy; however, Rem has something that many other scary wallbreakers such as Darm lack: it has multiple potentially viable sets.
1594049247795.png

Kyurem w/Leftovers or Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
252 HP/ 252 SpA/ 4 SpD; Modest
  • Substitute
  • Ice Beam/Freeze Dry
  • Earth Power
  • Roost
While not as splashable as Specs, this set trades in a fast approach to make use of Rem's Pressure in conjunction with Substitute to stall out slower threats. Leftovers and Roost further extend it's longevity while Boots allow it to come in freely if you can't clear hazards. Ice STAB and Earth Power form a solid attacking core that allows Rem to still tear holes in any mon lacking recovery except Bronzong. While this is my preferred set for defensive Rem, you could also drop EP for Protect and more defensive investment to further maximize PP stalling. Sure, Blissey still walls it, but it too feels the effects of Pressure and is forced to give up PP on its precious Seismic Toss (made worse if Rem has Protect), which Rem can abuse with Substitute. Bliss can still overcome this, unless-
1594049247795.png

Kyruem w/Life Orb or Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
252 Att/ 4 SpD/ 252 Speed; Adamant
  • Dragon Dance
  • Outrage/Scale Shot
  • Icicle Spear
  • Zen Headbutt/Shadow Claw
Imagine, if you will, switching in what you think will be an answer to one of the other two sets, only to see Rem grabbing a DDance on the switch. This is definitely not as meta-defining as the other two sets, but gains some value from its surprise factor, allowing Rem to turn the tables on normal checks and Bliss. Outrage guarantees a 2HKO on the fat egg even before a boost, while Scale Shot sacrifices some power in order to further increase Rem's normally okay speed and further threaten faster offensive mons. Icicle Spear is the other STAB of choice, while Zen Headbutt allows Rem to smack several normal checks like Keldeo and Terrakion (although Shadow Claw prevents you being completely walled by Steel, and at least threatens some damage on Zong).

Beyond just these set archetypes, Rem could also potentially run a Scarf variant of the Specs set to outspeed normal offensive checks or even mixed to catch both sides of the defensive spectrum off guard, although mixed may be too gimmicky to thrive long-term. Now, none of these sets (except maybe Specs) are game-breaking on their own; what makes them, and by extension Rem, potentially problematic is the fact that Rem could theoretically be running any of these sets. What may deal with one set does not necessarily want to switch into a Specs-boosted attack or potentially give Rem a free Sub or Dance. With nuclear special options and strong enough physical moves smashing through Blissey and the occasional Snorlax, Bronzong is functionally the only reliable counter to Rem (assuming no Shadow Claw). Even most of the mons that can take one hit from Rem are often rendered ineffective if facing the wrong set; for example, switching in your fast fighting type to live what you think is a Specs attack so you can revenge kill, only to taken out next turn as the set is actually Scarf. This is not to mention that the recent bans took away two solid checks in Slash and Conk, which could take one hit and fire a strong move in return or revenge kill it with Mach Punch, respectively. I acknowledge a few weaknesses:
  • A weakness to Rocks means that any non- defensive sets can struggle with longevity.
  • It doesn't like Knock Off since every set relies on its item
  • No one set can take care of everything it wants to
  • It always struggles with Bronzong without extensive prior damage
However, all of these issues can easily be mitigated with proper team support; G.Weezing or Skarmory can provide Defog support and eat Knock Offs repeatedly, the resident Ghost, Dark and Fire types can handle the bell, and Blissey, one of Rem's greatest enemies, can also be a terrific teammate as Wish aids offensive sets while Teleport can allow it to get in freely (just imagine if Blissey could use WishPort *shudders*). Overall, I feel that Rem's sheer power and surprisingly deep versatility at least warrant it being put on the radar; this is a mon that you need to specifically prepare for if not running Bliss or Zong. Maybe it gets more manageable over time, but honestly I think this thing is in prime position to tear the meta assunder.
 
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How many mons need to be in UUBL before we make UUBL a playable tier? I mean there's only like what, 17 or so banned to Ubers, and that's playable.

Sometimes the bans go overboard and you end up hand-picking how the metagame "should" be, instead of letting it sort itself out naturally with everything that has entered play. A total transformation of UU is likely when that happens, and everyone needs to understand that this transformation is just part of Pokemon Life.
 
How many mons need to be in UUBL before we make UUBL a playable tier? I mean there's only like what, 17 or so banned to Ubers, and that's playable.

Sometimes the bans go overboard and you end up hand-picking how the metagame "should" be, instead of letting it sort itself out naturally with everything that has entered play. A total transformation of UU is likely when that happens, and everyone needs to understand that this transformation is just part of Pokemon Life.
The problem is everything in that list is unhealthy as standalones, unhealthy when paired together, and unhealthy with them checking each other as we can obviously see how batshit crazy this week has been with majority of them freed all at once. We literally gave them the chance and they only proved our point that we cant let that shit fly in UU lol..

Keep in mind the drop cutoff has been increased and never reverted with the DLC, which is why we're even seeing shit like aegislash somehow manage in this tier when its an A+ rank OU mon in the pre-dlc rankings thread. If anything i'd complain about that + OU having a 40% usage rate on 1 centralizing pokemon and not being tested already as a cause of shit dropping and being BL.
 
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We did give them a chance, but I think the better move would have been to also ban all of the UUBL mons when these mons dropped to see how it played out, instead of just the ones that recently dropped. But I don't think anything else needs to be done right now as what's done is done. If, however, more things start to trickle into UU and get banned, then I think we should just let the meta play itself out with all UUBL mons. Having 15-20+ UUBL mons would be ridiculous.

I suspect some of the recent drops will move back up to OU anyways though, people just get excited with new things and start using them more when they first come out.
 

A Cake Wearing A Hat

moist and crusty
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The size of UUBL is not relevant to any UU decision making at all whatsoever. The creation of UUBL as a playable tier is not feasible from a usage-based-tiering standpoint and would be horrendously unplayable. Please try not to derail the thread too much with this kind of discussion; the council will retest any UUBL Pokemon that may fit in the tier after the tier has stabilized. Please be patient, and understand that Pokemon do not have a "right" to be used in a tier.
 
I appreciate you pointing out what UU(u)BL stands for, but I actually already knew.

My point is that if there's too many pokemon in UUBL, then it's quite possible the entire meta needs to be re-evaluated. So it is very relevant how many mons are in there, because if it's 20+ pokemon in UUBL it means that perhaps the UU meta should be re-evaluated as a whole, and a larger tier shift should occur.

That doesn't need to happen now, but it is something to watch out for in the future.
UUBL is only as large as it is because of the a Goldilocks effect many Pokemon have.
They are too good for UU, but not good enough for OU.

There is also not that many Pokemon in UUBL, but in the future, seeing UUBL be playable like Ubers is would be pretty cool.
 
jirachi.gif


Jirachi @ Expert Belt
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon/U-Turn/Iron Head/Filler

I've been tinkering around with this jirachi set and I've found it pretty fun, it's not overwhelmingly strong or anything but the coverage is really great, Psychic/Tbolt/Aura Sphere hits the entire tier for good damage except the fairies, who don't usually stay in anyways. Last slot is filler, u-turn is cool to switch out on things like blissey to bring in something to take advantage, iron head lets you attempt to 1v1 blissey by flinching it down and also hits the fairies, flash cannon is cool to hit kyurem and the fairies harder. Other things you could put in that slot that I haven't tried are sub, hw, icy wind, or rocks, I guess you could run grass knot for toad and gastro and quag but that sounds pretty bad. The only problem is that it's pretty weak especially when clicking neutral attacks and it isn't exactly snatching mons left and right, you could run life orb to boost the power but even then 100 base special attack is kinda underwhelming.

btw change the spread if you're gonna run iron head

oops i forgot about energy ball which is a better move than grass knot
 
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The only problem is that it's pretty weak especially when clicking neutral attacks and it isn't exactly snatching mons left and right, you could run life orb to boost the power but even then 100 base special attack is kinda underwhelming.
Thanks for sharing, eBelt seems like a solid set. It can probably surprise some mons that think they can setup safely on rachi.

The below set is more meme-ish, but the high 140 BP of Doom plus Specs makes up for rachi's 100 spA stat.

Against more offensive teams lacking certain fat like Blissey or Slowking, they usually lack great switchins to Doom and this can help Rachi's teammates break through checks. For instance:

252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 155-183 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 161-190 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO


:afrostar::afrostar::afrostar:



:afrostar::afrostar::afrostar:

Jirachi @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Psychic
- Trick
- U-Turn

EDIT: Thanks didn't realize the note below. Good to know.
"Robot7620: just going to point out that specs boost doesn't apply to doom desire if you switch out"
 
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Thanks for sharing, eBelt seems like a solid set. It can probably surprise some mons that think they can setup safely on rachi.

The below set is more meme-ish, but the high 140 BP of Doom plus Specs makes up for rachi's 100 spA stat.

Against more offensive teams lacking certain fat like Blissey or Slowking, they usually lack great switchins to Doom and this can help Rachi's teammates break through checks. For instance:

252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 155-183 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 161-190 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO


:afrostar::afrostar::afrostar:



:afrostar::afrostar::afrostar:

Jirachi @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Psychic
- Trick
- U-Turn
just going to point out that specs boost doesn't apply to doom desire if you switch out
 
How many mons need to be in UUBL before we make UUBL a playable tier? I mean there's only like what, 17 or so banned to Ubers, and that's playable.

Sometimes the bans go overboard and you end up hand-picking how the metagame "should" be, instead of letting it sort itself out naturally with everything that has entered play. A total transformation of UU is likely when that happens, and everyone needs to understand that this transformation is just part of Pokemon Life.
If you think UUBL is big, you should look at PUBL. That place is nuts XD
Joking aside, the size of a banlist does not mean it becomes a playable tier. Besides, even if we make it playable, it would take away every defensive mon of UU, basicaly transforming it into a new RU
 
To address these comments about the UUBL, I decided to reevaluate which mons could see a potential unban.

Diggersby: The descent of Skarmory to UU has given this guy another counter, but I still think this thing still cleaves through too much of the tier. At present, Skarm, Zong and G. Weez are really the only things that can reliably switch into this thing due to typing, ability and physical bulk. Should stay banned.

Dracozolt:
Honestly, I think this thing is a lot more manageable now. This is mostly due to the influx of new Ground types to stave off Bolt Beak in Krookodile, Seismotoad and Palossand; recent rise Steelix is also a good counter if Zolt lacks Fire Blast. Add to that faster threats like Celebi and Terrakion keeping Beak at a manageable 85 BP and reliably reeking vengeance on it, and I think this guy might be worth a trial run. I say retest.

Durant:
The ant has finally gained a consistent counter in Skarmory, but I don't know about this one. The sheer power of Choice Band + Hustle means that the most reliable way to defeat it is to hope it misses; some Fire types like Arcanine and Talonflame can check it, but neither one really wants to hard switch due to Ant's rock coverage. Thus, I say it should stay banned.

Gyarados:
Dos still has the same power of Moxie snowballing and great coverage that got it banned. Again, this thing can be countered by Skarm now, and there are more threats that can theoretically take it out before it gets a chance to set up like Starmie, but defensive options for Dos are still really dependent on coverage. Dos' biggest problem is 4MSS, as it wants Bounce to hit Grass, Power Whip for other Waters and Earthquake to dent Steels, but I'm just not convinced that that is enough to keep Dos in check. Unsure

Haxorus:
Gets Scale Shot now. Uh, no. Stay banned

Mamoswine:
Huh. It's kind of weird just how many of these mons struggle against Skarm. Anyways, the rise of Prankster screens and drop of Seismotoad due make Mamo a tad more mangeable; in addition, we now have several more checks such as Heracross and Keldeo. Still, Band covers most of the meta, so I'd have to say unsure.

A. Ninetales:
While lacking the screen setter godsend that is Prankster, Ninetales carves itself an interesting niche due to only needing one slot for screens. This gives Tales more freedom with the rest of it's moveset, between valuable support in Encore and Hypnosis (right) and decent STAB attacks. They're probably gonna demand a reban anyways, so should stay banned.

Primarina:
Calm Mind and Metronome boosted attacks may have broke this mon before, but there are several new options that I feel keep the singer down. For starters, Blissey largely shuts both these sets down, as Rina struggles to dent the egg even after a boost while the Wish+Protect set invalidates the old Metronome strategy. Additionally, the tiers new additions like Skarm (hello again), Tentacruel, Jirachi and screens Klefki, along with old standbys like Mantine and Bronzong give more mons that can check Rina defensively. Finally, UU has no shortage of faster offensive mons who can easily revenge kill it if need be, such as Terrakion, Talonflame and Celebi. Honestly, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to retest.

Venusaur:
Honestly, I wasn't entirely onboard with this thing getting banned in the first place. Sure, sun gives it valuable Fire coverage, but the presence of sand (and maybe Hail) mean that this coverage isn't the most reliable; without Fire type WB, this thing struggles against Steels, particularly Skarm (take a shot) and Bronzong. Even if you run Sun, new additions Tentacruel and Dragalge don't care that much for sets without EP, allowing them to potentially set up TSpikes; Alge can muscle through the thing with Adaptability STAB while Cruel can Spin for its team or cripple Saur with Knock Off. Speaking of which, Saur absolutely needs an item to due its job properly, as 100 SpA isn't exactly game-breaking on its own. Mons like Arcanine, Talonflame, Kyurem and Escavalier also tend to prevent Saur from switching in, and it can also be checked by the likes of Jirachi. Because of all this, I think we should retest.

Weavile:
Finally, we have the frail but powerful Weavile. This thing hates the new additions of Keldeo, Klefki and Skarm (again?), and also hates that Barraskewda is actually viable now. In addtion, this thing doesn't do that much to G. Weezing and, like it always does, can have problems actually getting on the field due to its frailty. Its inability to run Boots effectively means that non- SD sets mandate hazard support. All that said, this thing is still pretty strong and hits most of the tier really hard, so I'd argue it would be worth the maintenance necessary to use it. Still, I must say I'm unsure.

All this said, I do think this process of retesting is worth further considering, as the successful return of Crawdaunt and Obstagoon to the tier show how much this meta has changed over the last few months. Then again, it's possible I've missed a few things, but as of now this is where I stand on these mons.
 
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Gyarados: Dos still has the same power of Moxie snowballing and great coverage that got it banned. Again, this thing can be countered by Skarm now, and there are more threats that can theoretically take it out before it gets a chance to set up like Starmie, but defensive options for Dos are still really dependent on coverage. Dos' biggest problem is 4MSS, as it wants Bounce to hit Grass, Power Whip for other Waters and Earthquake to dent Steels, but I'm just not convinced that that is enough to keep Dos in check. Unsure
Gyarados has enough coverage to hit a lot of the tier with it's DD set, not to mention it still has intimidate sets. Skarmory can tank a few hits but the most it can do against a Moxie Boosted Gyarados is use toxic which lum berry sets don't usually mind or whirlwind which can bring in something that Skarmory doesn't want to face. Gyarados should stay banned.
 
If you think UUBL is big, you should look at PUBL. That place is nuts XD
Joking aside, the size of a banlist does not mean it becomes a playable tier. Besides, even if we make it playable, it would take away every defensive mon of UU, basicaly transforming it into a new RU
You are 100% correct - it would be almost like shifting tiers entirely. But I don't think that's a bad thing.

But the making UUBL playable was mostly a joke - although it seems chaotic enough to actually be fun. I was more using it to illustrate the point of re-evaluating whether everything there truly deserves a ban, as opposed to maybe re-evaluating the UU meta to see if things could afford to be shaken up a bit. There will obviously be UUBL mons that can never survive in any healthy UU meta, but I don't think it's true for all (or even most) of them.

And yeah PUBL is absurd, but I have historically found it quite easy to use most PUBL mons in NU very successfully. It's harder to use most UUBL mons in OU, although some are very easy to use there right now since everything is still re-adjusting (Aegislash and Conk are still ok in OU). We will see where things end up next month. And when the next batch of mons get released (after Crown Tundra) and more stuff drops to UU all at once, I hope we can re-evaluate them against some of the things already banned previously instead just against each other and the current UU meta. That is all I was trying to say.
 
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Stellar

of the Distant Past
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I started playing after the recent tier shift, and I've made it to around 1600 with around 50 games or so. It took me a while to get rolling, because I was new to the tier and also trying out some dumb stuff like NP Quick Claw/Draw Slowbro-G and Wish/Teleport Wigglytuff just for the heck of it. Afterward, I made some more serious teams and got a big win streak going. I thought I would drop my thoughts on a few useful Pokémon I liked. I've put the set I used the most often with each Pokémon below their sprite. EVs could definitely use tweaking – I've just been using basic spreads since I've been wrapping my head around things.

---

:vaporeon:
Code:
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Flip Turn
The first team I tried out took advantage of Wish / Flip Turn Vaporeon. It did its job incredibly consistently, but I found myself being held back by the lack of coverage caused by being forced to run two Water-type moves. It was pretty useful for coming in on Jirachi / Aegislash (back when that was a thing) and healing up the rest of my teammates. I tried it out for a bit on my second team as well in an attempt to provide healing for AV Hatterene / defensive Krook, and it did its job well there too. I feel overall Vaporeon is probably a little too easily set-up on to be great in UU.

:scyther:
Code:
Scyther @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Quick Attack
I've only been using CB Scyther, but it's been a great experience so far. I actually very rarely find myself using Dual Wingbeat just because there are so many great Steel-type switch-ins in UU. Even when paired with Magneton, I've steel mostly been spamming U-turn and Knock Off. I've been running this alongside both Hatterene and Rapid Spin, so SR hasn't been that much of a problem. Scyther definitely still works really well, and it's been a consistent contributor in almost every match. I'd say try it out, if you haven't already.

:hatterene:
Code:
Hatterene (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP  / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Psyshock
- Nuzzle
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire
The only set I've run so far is Assault Vest, but I can definitely see other sets putting in work too. It's incredibly unfortunate that Hatterene doesn't have Moonblast. I've been running Draining Kiss and it's been working pretty well. Nuzzle is honestly the most amazing move on this set, as people tend to switch in offensively-oriented Pokémon trying to prevent you from setting up. Hatterene has just enough defense to tank some hits and dish out some damage/status while blocking most of the common hazard setters. Hatterene was better with Wish support from Vaporeon, but has been doing decently well on my Magneton-trapper team as well.

:tyranitar:
Code:
Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Low Kick
I tried out DD Tyranitar early on in my UU run, and it was a lot better than I thought it would be. Even with UU's myriad Fighting-types, TTar's coverage still let it clean up pretty easily. I ran Chople and Low Kick (because I didn't like the drops from Superpower). Low Kick still accomplished most of what I needed it to (other than bonking Krook). I've been surprised by how well Tyranitar fits in UU, but my surprise is probably colored by years of using it in OU. I haven't had much trouble playing against it, which seems to be the viewpoint shared by a lot of other players based on what I've read in this thread.

:tsareena:
Code:
Tsareena (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip
- Knock Off
- Triple Axel
- Rapid Spin
Tsareena has been a blast to use. I first wanted to test it out because it gained Triple Axel, which let it circumvent most of the checks it had in the past to some degree. I first tried out a Scarf set, but found myself being walled way too-often with Skarmory in the tier. It did what it was supposed to, though, and Queenly Majesty was useful when I was revenging opposing Mimikyu/Lycanroc-D. On my newest Magneton team, I have been trying out LO with Rapid Spin to see if she could adequately clean up late-game after grabbing the Speed boost from Rapid Spin. I haven't quite achieved a full sweep yet, but she's been pretty consistent overall. Sadly, Tsareena just needs too many moves. I've definitely wanted both HJK and U-turn at various points.

---

With all that being said, I've really enjoyed getting my toes wet in UU. I'm really glad Aegislash and Conkeldurr got the boot, and I'm patiently waiting for a verdict on Grimmsnarl / Scolipede. This pairing seems to me to be the biggest issue currently. I actually tried out Brick Break on Krookodile for a few matches just because I was tired of it...
 

wuhoodude

Goodbye Bewear
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I want to talk about a highly slept on mon that has only been mentioned a few times in this thread.
:ss/porygon-z:
Porygon-Z is back after being banished to uubl last gen thanks to broken z moves. It reprises its role as a breaker and cleaner just as it did back in oras. Tbh it wasn't that good back then, but I think now it has more opportunities to support its team in this metagame. Currently I've only run one set, but I have had a lot of success with it.
Porygon-Z @ Lum Berry
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Agility
- Tri Attack
- Shadow Ball
Double dance pz lets it become both a breaker and cleaner in one set. Due to its bulk, it struggles to set up vs more offensive teams. With dual screens support, pz has an easier time setting up and makes it harder to revenge kill. Versus some teams, it has to decide whether to boost its special attack or speed, but can't set up both. Versus unprepared teams, it can usually set up both and sweep. Right now I don't believe pz is broken, but it has the ability to put in work vs many teams. Part of the reason has to do with screens, which may lead to the argument to ban grimmsnarl. Besides that, people should see that the duck can do stuff.

If pz really starts to gain traction here's some checks
:terrakion::tyranitar::cobalion::gigalith::copperajah::escavalier:
and priority to revenge
:crawdaunt::golisopod::Lycanroc-Dusk::sirfetchd:

Pz in action
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1146400870
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1146404218
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1146412863
 
Stellar wrote a whole freakin rmt wtf

Another cool mon that we've slept on that I dont think has actually been mentioned at all:


Starmie is one of the coolest drops we've gotten in my opinion. It has an amazing speed tier, great typing, and a stellar movepool that allows it to fulfill a variety of roles. Here are some sets I could see it running / potentially running. Please take into account that I am bad and the last set is probably a sin on multiple levels.

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Flip Turn / Recover / w/e really
Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
Starmie @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Flip Turn
- Trick / Thunderbolt / Grass Knot / w/e

Overall, Starmie is a really cool addition to the tier that everyone should at least try out! Anyways, have a good day all!
 

solonor24

Banned deucer.
After tons of ladder rage and some experimenting, I wanted to share some thoughts on some sleeper mons/sets that I've had good success with.

:Krookodile:
Krookodile @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate / Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Iron Tail
- Close Combat / Stone Edge

Of course Krookodile is seeing lots of usage due to its nice offensive typing/speed, access to knock off, and being a reliable rocker with taunt to ensure your rocks stay up in the short term. Although, one thing i've noticed in particular is nobody is trying out banded, and why people aren't trying it i really don't know. It's coverage combined with 117 attack make it worth trying out as a breaker of sorts.

I'd argue this pokemon is actually better than ttar and crawdaunt as a dark breaker due to its speed and coverage combined. The latter two pokemon both struggle in the speed department massively and will likely only be able to get 1-2 hits off per game due to that exact reason.

Some calcs that may convince you:
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hatterene: 316-374 (99.3 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Weezing-Galar: 200-236 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 284-336 (72 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Rotom-Wash: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Escavalier: 195-231 (56.6 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


As krooks last move, u can either use cc as a nice midground attack, stone edge if you really want to kill mantine, or even rocks for that matter. This set can also run moxie or intimidate, though intimidate is probably better for the time being since the broken scolipede is still around. I could go on and on with the amount of times krook has just completely obliterated my opponents defensive cores, but im sure you get the picture.

:Rotom-Wash:
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Defog
- Thunder Wave/Toxic/Wisp/Pain Split

It has come to my attention a lot of people forget Rotom-Wash exists due to all the new toys in the meta, but it has in fact become better than ever. It smacks all the common rockers (rhyperior, terrak, skarm, krook, pallossand, ttar), can defog on nearly anything, and is an overall annoyance to almost all teams at the moment. The spread on this allows it to outrun Ttar, a benchmark that still allows it to retain a good amount of bulk whilst being faster than a lot of the bulky mons that are normally in its face. It's last move can be subjective to whatever suits your team the best. The main reason it's gotten better is because celebi and roserade are falling out of favour, allowing it to run a nice defensive set or even nasty plot, which I'll get too in the next part. Overall, the defensive set is an amazing pivot with great utility that make it a great choice in this current metagame.

:Rotom-Wash:
Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf/Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 48 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick/Substitute/Wisp/Thunder Wave
- Nasty Plot
- Volt Switch/Discharge
- Hydro Pump

Surprisingly enough, both of the offensive sets actually shred the fatter teams. Being able to use trick/a status move to cripple your opponent just further adds on to the annoyance of the godly washing machine. The spread here makes you hit 286 speed, creeping base 284s such a chandelure. As mentioned before, a lot of the counters to this like celebi, roserade, vileplume etc are falling out of favour for the new toys in the tier, and rotom does well against nearly all of them bar kyurem which you can still punish on the switch with a trick or a thunder wave.

Some replays for the kids:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1146749976-jil6gczl3foysgxwy8hfusng2o8u3k8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1146444959-mmqoc20q4hrx3i5vt7fktnr8whjdg9qpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1146776727-rdr6ez8jvbhwgwdm1ffc7my9hthxpwgpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1146746053
 
Last edited:

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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UU Leader
Hi guys, just wanted to talk about a few mons I've been really liking now that I've finally gotten the chance to play properly. It's pretty late so this won't be too long, but here we go:

:ss/mienshao:
Choice Band Mienshao
Mienshao @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Renny put me up to this, saying that he liked the idea of CB Shao since the Reckless HJK calcs are pretty absurd - the only thing that really takes two is Slowking. I quickly threw a team together and laddered with it a bunch, and I have to say I'm really pleased with the results. CB Shao is a terrifying wallbreaker that preys on slower teams with ease, and if your opponent lacks something like a Palossand it can be very, very scary. Here are some calcs to illustrate the raw power of a banded High Jump Kick:
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Rotom-Wash: 288-339 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 154-182 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Tentacruel: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 211-249 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It's very lethal and honestly really fun to use. CB U-turn is strong and makes revenge killing the likes of Celebi a breeze, and Knock Off allows you to get past stuff like Palossand and Slowking that don't run a Colbur Berry while also annoying Galarian Weezing, one of this set's few actual counters. I personally ran CC as my last fourth move to help with cleaning up weakened teams without risking a miss, but Fake Out is viable too if you really need the priority and Facade is kinda useful if you get burned somehow.

:ss/rotom-mow:
Choice Scarf Rotom-Mow
Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Leaf Storm
- Defog
- Trick

I'm really high on this thing rn. The general decrease in usage of rockers like Copperajah and Bronzong is great, because Mowtom can really easily come in on and Defog on stuff like TTar, Rhyperior (if that still exists), Palossand, Seismitoad and even Krookodile in a pinch. It's also notable because it's a Grass-type that can actually get through Skarmory, and Trick means Blissey isn't a safe switchin either. As you can see on the previously linked team, I've been running a Scarf set and it's honestly super fun and reliable. Rotom-Wash is also in a phenomenal spot, but I've found that Seismitoad is relatively common and really annoying to face, so I'm liking the mower a little more.

:ss/palossand:
Palossand
Palossand @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock / Shadow Ball
- Scorching Sands
- Toxic
- Shore Up

Palossand might be our best defensive rocker rn. Between an incredible typing that allows it to easily handle stuff like Toxtricity, Cobalion, and Scolipede, good bulk, decent offensive presence, and its new tool in Scorching Sands, it's shaping up to be one of the premier walls in the metagame. I'm personally partial to pairing it with rocks Tyranitar; few shared weaknesses are annoying, but otherwise they cover a lot of stuff for each other (palo checks fighting types, ttar checks ghost types etc.) and it frees up Shadow Ball on Palossand. It also means you get the Sand Veil evasion boost and an increase in recovery from Shore Up. I really really like this rn and I think it has a place on all kinds of stalls, balances and bulky offenses.

In terms of what I think might be unhealthy, Scolipede is obviously ridiculous. Blissey is also shaping up to be very problematic now that people have discovered Blissey offense of all things, and then we have some other problematic threats like Terrakion, Lycanroc-D, potentially Crawdaunt, and Kyurem. I don't think Grimmsnarl is even close to broken or even that good, screens teams are real solid and Grimm is obviously a driving force on a lot of them but it still faces competition from Espeon and Xatu and isn't exactly dominating the playstyle; if we were to ban it, we'd still see the same teams prop up, just with different setters. Hope you're all enjoying the new meta, I'm seeing some great team variety and hope to see more of it in the future o/
 
I've been playing a lot of UU games lately, I will highlight the problematic threats right now:

Scolipede is holy shit broken. It's lack of offensive and defensive counterplay; Scolipede is limited to Skarmory, Palossand and Galarian Weezing. Skarmory is the only defensive counter, it can switch into Scolipede every time. Palossand has a chance to OHKO'd by LO Aqua Tail and Weezing is 2HKO by +2 LO Poison Jab. The offensive counterplay is non-existent because of Speed Boost ability to avoid the revenge kill from scarf Pokemon. Scolipede is resistant to Priority move under the screen such as Mach Punch, Lycanroc is the only Pokemon that can revenge kill with priority move. Rid of this bug ASAP.


I am putting Terrakion and Lycanroc-Dusk in the same group because they are a similar movepool. They both have a lack of defensive counterplay but a similar pool of checks. They are probably one of the best screens abusers because they have a great speed base, access to Sword Dance and excellent coverage. Palossand is one of the best Terrakion counter (as long as it is healthy), but it is not a good counter for Lycanroc-Dusk. Palossand can't switch into Lycanroc-Dusk's Crunch repeatedly. The screens make it hard to revenge kill Lycanroc-Dusk and Terrakion. CB Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet can't even OHKO Lycanroc-Dusk under the screens. For the fact they are both in the tier simultaneously, we can't have a counter for both Terrakion and Lycanroc-Dusk in the same slot. I feel like they are too much right now.


I've been playing with it and against it. We have more pivoting moves than the last generations to give a free turn for Crawdaunt against offense and bulkier teams. Crawdaunt can literally OHKO or 2HKO the entire tier, it's very hard to switch into Crawdaunt. We don't have a viable pokemon that is resisting both STABs unless you want to use physical defense Keldeo, Poliwrath and Shiinotic in your team. It's too much for this tier right now.
 
Lol if Skarm goes OU again we'll have to ban half the tier
I doubt that it will as long as Corviknight and Mandibuzz are still prominent in OU.

Luckily for Skarmory, it's what I would classify as a "Great Pokemon outclassed by another Great Pokemon", and with UU it is amazing because it's essentially a OU Pokemon that dropped to UU. Being in an environment that lacks Corviknight means UU can have a taste of a Corviknight that sacrifices Special Bulk and Pressure for Hazards, Whirlwind, Toxic, and 140 Def Body Press.
 
Oh I'm sure you're right, but reading this thread about 70% of the new mons are kept on check by him alone. Dudes carrying the tier.

There's no need for Magneton, just run a team of 6 pokemon who are only checked by Skarmory!
 
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