Metagame National Dex BH

[FireByTheReins]

Thanks anaconja

 

[SuperSkylake]

CFZ moves also appear to be free right now. But to make this not a one liner here are some great sets to check out!

Arceus-Steel @ Iron Plate
Ability: Flash Fire / Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Judgment
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Recover
+
Diancie-Mega @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Rapid Spin
- Scorching Sands / V-Create


A nice core for balanced teams right now, with Arceus-Steel walling all sorts of attacks and also giving you a switch into normalize users. Pick whichever immunity ability you need. Arceus also can switch into Xerneas, which has great potential in this metagame (I haven't seen it yet but the ladder is extremely new), and neutralize it over and over, only really fearing a paralysis or sleep. ANd you can never go wrong with an immunity to knock off and trick!

Mega Diancie is great in this meta because of the prevalence of Giratina, Ash Gren, Yveltal and MMX. 50 BP rapid spin and a speed boost means that Mega Diancie doesn't lose much momentum when spinning. Scorching Sands deals appreciable damage to Steel, Poison, and Fire-types, threatening to burning the former two, also threatening to burn imposter. I prefer it over V-Create because there are going to be more Fire-immune than Ground-immune mons because of the presence of V-Create, but the meta will probably shift routinely, so keep an eye on it.


Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Low Kick
- Triple Axel
- Spikes
- Obstruct

The old PH Mewtwo set is back with a vengeance! Thanks to no dynamax, Low Kick is a very safe move to click. Triple Axel makes life very unpleasant for non-FC Dragons trying to wall it, but the real cool part is Obstruct, which, if they try and U-Turn or Spectral Thief you, means their defense stat is halved, which forces another switch. When it works, it's great. And if it doesn't you can probably get Spikes set up, and waste their defog pp.

Mons that are looking great:

Red Orb Groudon: In the current climate (pun intended), Groudon holds up well against opposing weather teams, and presents its own sweeping threat. Shell Smash sets are insanely threatening, but require impractical imposter-proofing. The best improofs for it are probably something like FF Arceus-Grass for variants with Bolt Beak and/or Thousand Arrows, and Levitate Arceus-Fire or Primsea Celesteela for the others. The best move combination is probably Shell Smash, Pblades/Tarrows/Earthquake, Fleur Cannon/Bolt Strike, and V-Create.

Watch list:

Fisheous Rend: This is a serious threat on not only Ash Gren, but other Waters as well. pretty much necesitates a Water immunity to handle it, as Tinted Lens can purge resists like they were nothing. A wall as bulky as FC Zygarde-C would be needed to actually eat a hit and recover (252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zygarde-Complete: 213-252 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). With Mold Breaker, it could do more, and in rain, Greninja can get away with a different ability. Desolate Land is of course a hard stop.
Species Clause Vs. Form Clause: With the coding of Form clause, it is possible that this could be implemented on the Natdex BH ladder instead of species clause. Some people have expressed concern about running six Arceus forms on a team, but multiple Arceus forms isn't a huge problem because none of their stats are overly high. But I could very well be missing something. I think that there is a lot more to be gained from form clause though such as being able to run Mega Mewtwo forms and both the crowned and uncrowned forms of the dogs.

SO let me know what you think!

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Just wondering, is there a NatDex BH Discord that people can join?

 

[Flying Pichu]

Acupressure needs to be banned, especially with simple. It is a way to get around the evasion clause and gets ridiculous to deal with very rapidly and can be rather toxic to the gameplay. Yes, there are ways to get around it, but it is essentially moody, but takes a move slot instead of reducing a stat by a single stage. If the correct stats are boosted, it becomes quite difficult to deal with, especially when paired with stored power or power trip.

 

[Marigold]

If you want to turn your brain off against the bulky teams, consider this core.

Double Band

Beedrill-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Ice Hammer
- Bolt Beak

Gyarados-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Flip Turn
- Wicked Blow
- Pursuit

With a Sniper boost, Surging Strikes is functionally as strong as Fishious Rend and Wicked Blow becomes a dark-type V-Create with no drawbacks. For reference on how obscenely powerful Gyarados is, a max defense Yveltal will get 2hko'd by Wicked Blow. Max defense Primal Kyogre gets ohko'd by this set. Pursuit is useful for getting free damage or even kills, such as when revenging a Beedrill that just used its own V-Create.

The Beedrill coverage can be tailored to whatever you want. I'm currently using a boltbeam coverage set to nail targets like Zygarde-Complete, Giratina, Ho-Oh, and more. Pair this core with some anti-offense priority and you're good to go!

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Champion Leon Revelation Dance wouldn’t get the 20% boost compared to Plate Judgement. So it’d be 90 vs 120 BP, not 90 vs 100.

 

[Champion Leon]

Champion Leon Revelation Dance wouldn’t get the 20% boost compared to Plate Judgement. So it’d be 90 vs 120 BP, not 90 vs 100.

Thank you.
As far as I know the type plates should still boost all types of attacks that match the plate, unless something changed since last generation,

If so, it is just an option so people are not item limited, for example if they want to use Shed Shell, Rocky Helmet; etc. then Revelation Dance doesn’t require an item.

If you want to turn your brain off against the bulky teams, consider this core.

Double Band

Beedrill-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Ice Hammer
- Bolt Beak

Gyarados-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Flip Turn
- Wicked Blow
- Pursuit

With a Sniper boost, Surging Strikes is functionally as strong as Fishious Rend and Wicked Blow becomes a dark-type V-Create with no drawbacks. For reference on how obscenely powerful Gyarados is, a max defense Yveltal will get 2hko'd by Wicked Blow. Max defense Primal Kyogre gets ohko'd by this set. Pursuit is useful for getting free damage or even kills, such as when revenging a Beedrill that just used its own V-Create.

The Beedrill coverage can be tailored to whatever you want. I'm currently using a boltbeam coverage set to nail targets like Zygarde-Complete, Giratina, Ho-Oh, and more. Pair this core with some anti-offense priority and you're good to go!

I would suggest Adaptability to boost everything in Gyarados.

 

[Marigold]

I would suggest Adaptability to boost everything in Gyarados.

Sniper is actually significantly stronger than Adaptability on Gyarados for damage output, hitting key calcs like 2hko'ing Magearna and Zygarde with Wicked Blow. The other two moves on Gyarados are mostly utility anyway and don't need much power to do their jobs.

However, an alternative to the set I posted would be to replace Surging Strikes with Fishious Rend on an Adaptability set if you really want a stronger Flip Turn and Pursuit! So in a sense yeah, Adaptability could work as well.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Champion Leon Okay, so the Revelation Dance thing was a brain fart on my part. But still, it’s not as good for improof purposes.

 

[Champion Leon]

Champion Leon Okay, so the Revelation Dance thing was a brain fart on my part. But still, it’s not as good for improof purposes.

I completely see your point, Imposter has a stronger STAB Revelation dance than unstabbed Judgement, but it is resisted either way.

My only point was that the item is less restricted, so the set can be more diverse, as Judgment requires an item for type, while Revelation Dance is automatic based on the Pokemon itself, so now it can use Leftovers, Rocky Helmet, Shed Shell, etc,

I suggested Multi-Type as a replacement so he wouldn’t have to use a Calm Nature, which lowers their Attack stat, and could instead lower their SpA while boosting SpD.

But not going mixed, you can lower their unused-offensive stat, and that way Spectral Thief is a little stronger, and it can hit Fairies, Rocks, and Ice-Types that have a lower Def than SpD, such as Kyurem-W.

The change is arbitrary, so it is not strictly worse or better.

I agree with Anaconja on the Normalize point thoroughly. These mons are meant to be obscenely strong to the point where they can only be countered by Melmetal and Ghosts (Giratina and the far rarer Dusclops). Running another item just to hit these mons just makes the mon lose tons of power to hit like one mon in the tier. Not to mention PHeal is just a better setup sweeper thanks to great longevity and a status immunity, coupled with a Spectral immunity.

Also I have more sets


Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Fire Lash
- Precipice Blades
- Shore Up

So this set basically aims to pressure literally anything that isnt PSea/Flash Fire Cele I guess. Basically you trap shit, then wear them down with Fire Lash so that eventually Gira and ZyGod takes loads from Precipice Blades. I have no idea how to improof this tbh outside of literally FF Steela and Prank Gira/Zyg-C (you haze the boost) so it might not work.



Marshadow @ Ghost Memory
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Close Combat
- ???

Physical MGar. Improofs itself. Not much to say here if you’ve played regular BH but this gets around stuff like Scales PrimOgre and has Spectral for Giratina.


Zeraora @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Bolt Beak
- Taunt / Precipice Blades
- Teleport

Pretty wack gimmick tbh. The idea was to combine last gen’s AVeil Zera with the CB Bolt Beak variant to make a pseudo breaker/supporter, but it fails against grounds in general. PBlades dents PDon but I dont know if that can make this viable.


Arceus-Steel @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce / Prankster / Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Destiny Bond
- Teleport
- Recover

Here’s better Registeel basically. Pretty strong utility mon overall whose only bad point is ofc really high Speed, which is somewhat circumvented with Teleport. Idk what to run on this since its about as variable as Registeel was last gen. FF improofs V-create Pixi Diancie, MBounce is good utility and Prank generally stops setup sweepers.

To avoid being Knock Off bait, I would suggest White Herb + Shell Smash + Poltergeist > Multi-Attack + Ghost Memory.

Marshadow @ White Herb
Ability: Mold Breaker / Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Poltergeist
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch / Extreme Speed / Obstruct

This is similar to Ghost-Arceus > Gengar-Mega when it comes to Knock Off, where losing the item on Gengar makes it vulnerable.

Obstruct is a great option, so if you can stall, you will do more damage next turn, without giving Imposter a Protect move too strong (Baneful Bunker or Spiky Shield).

Otherwise, priority to bypass Haze Prankster users (Mach Punch for Steels, Extreme Speed for nuetral or resister Hits). Extreme Speed can also serve as a last resort to hit -ate users first, especially after Shell Smash.

Alternatively, the same set from Gen 8 BH, which has served me well. If you can come in on something you force out, then go the Belly Drum, and sweep. Mach Punch can also punish Darmanitan-Galar-Z, while Extreme Speed works against Psychics, in the event you need to revenge kill Focus Sashers (using Marshadow for the priority before Speed Boost).

Marshadow @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Poltergeist
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch / Extreme Speed

 

[Chessking345]

So the meta has been reasonably active, here are some metagame thoughts/observations.

Fishious Rend/Surging Strikes along with Wicked Blow wallbreakers (not necessarily on the same mon like Ashninja or Gyara) have been pretty common and take advantage of the Gen 7 meta being less prepared for Water and Dark wallbreakers and using less reliable answers like Primal Kyogre and Poison Heal Xerneas. Rain teams have been particularly dangerous if not prepared properly, and is also taking advantage of no Shed, as it also leads to less Giratinas in favour of more Zyg-Cs. I haven't found these especially unhealthy, but I do think teams need to start equipping sturdy Water- and Dark-resists. Ashninja itself I think got a lot better and is a really threatening mon rn with the ability to go mixed, a really solid speed tier, and an incredible set of STAB moves featuring Water Spout, Steam Eruption/Origin Pulse, Water Shuriken, Fishious Rend, Flip Turn, Wicked Blow, Knock Off, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, etc you get the idea. Note that the mons that resist this STAB combination like Tapu Fini, Tapu Bulu, and Mega Altaria all need an ability to not get 2HKOed by the STABs which is incredible.

Speaking of Rain teams, I think this mon is incredible in the current meta as a strong offensive pivot. Incredible natural bulk makes it win nearly every 1v1 against offensive mons such as MMX and no EP MMY for example. It is capable of (soft) checking stuff like Zacian-C, Xerneas, Mega Beedrill, etc with its phenomenal typing, as well as being a huge obstacle for Rain teams and Water wallbreakers like Ashninja and POgre. Slightly lower Giratina usage compared to Zyg is also beneficial because offensive sets can break past Zyg more easily than Tina with Ice coverage.

Magic Guard sets have been rising in popularity as it has a lot of really strong moves compared to Sheer Force, namely Light of Ruin, Mind Blown, HJK, and the new Bolt Beak, which is a ridiculous coverage move that threatens to 2HKO defensive Steels after a Spike or more. A very strong threat despite Zacian-C being a pretty good offensive answer existing.

I haven't seen him too much but it definitely doesn't feel as overwhelming as in Gen 7. Ice Scales makes non-Moldy Smash sets difficult to navigate as those would either be walled or need to forgo Judgment for Sash Moongeist. Specs could still be very scary but Darkceus is a pretty strong forme to use. Still cleans up teams really well and is always threatening, but the non-orthodox sets got a lot worse IMO.

I do think -ate is in a really good position right now. Rapid Spin is really great in this meta since its reasonably strong, has 64 PP (which can actually stall out Recovers), and has a nice speed boost. There aren't a whole lot of good spinners that can reliably force out Giratina though, so -ate spin is really valuable. It also gives a strong move in Boomburst and if you can fit it Extreme Speed is really useful priority in a meta where I think DQM is a bit worse than before and has some strong offensive threats that can be picked off with priority. Most reasonably bulky mons (like above Mew bulk level) with a STAB -ate that's not Galvanize can use -ate spin pretty effectively, like Lugia, Xerneas, and Iceceus.

I might make an update on the Arceus formes that I did a couple months ago, but I only built like two formes so far so I'll play with the other ones before theorymonning.

 

[anaconja]

So I've played and watched several games in the meta and two moves stand out as possibly unhealthy:Fishious Rend and Shell Smash.

superSkylake's take on Fishious Rend

SL's take on Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak

Fishious Rend Greninja-Ash is very difficult to switch into - its high Speed allows it to force many mons out, and without a resist and Fur Coat even the bulkiest of mons are forced to recover the next turn or are 2HKOd outright. As a result it forces one to use specific walls to check Greninja-Ash, indicating its unhealthiness. Gyarados-Mega, while not nearly as fast as Greninja-Ash, is another abuser of Fishious Rend. It can easily shore up its low speed by using Shell Smash, allowing it to OHKO almost all of the tier. Which brings me to the next suspectable move:


Gen 7 and Gen 8 BH have both suspected Shell Smash because of its ability to boost both offenses and Speed, which can be abused by setup sweepers to overwhelm defensive cores and putting immediate pressure on the opposing player. This meta is not much different. Both posts summarize the arguments for and against a Shell Smash ban well so I don't think I need to go too much in depth, but here is a replay showing how Shell Smash can easily turn the tide of a game.

So, I'd like to hold a poll with three options:
1. Ban Fishious Rend
2. Ban Shell Smash
3. Other: Take another action, or none at all

Since this meta is somewhat lacking in players I won't require a strict GXE requirement, but I would appreciate it if you could add a bit of reasoning and/or proof of some meta knowledge.

 

[KeeganSkymin4444]

So I've played and watched several games in the meta and two moves stand out as possibly unhealthy:Fishious Rend and Shell Smash.

superSkylake's take on Fishious Rend

SL's take on Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak

Fishious Rend Greninja-Ash is very difficult to switch into - its high Speed allows it to force many mons out, and without a resist and Fur Coat even the bulkiest of mons are forced to recover the next turn or are 2HKOd outright. As a result it forces one to use specific walls to check Greninja-Ash, indicating its unhealthiness. Gyarados-Mega, while not nearly as fast as Greninja-Ash, is another abuser of Fishious Rend. It can easily shore up its low speed by using Shell Smash, allowing it to OHKO almost all of the tier. Which brings me to the next suspectable move:


Gen 7 and Gen 8 BH have both suspected Shell Smash because of its ability to boost both offenses and Speed, which can be abused by setup sweepers to overwhelm defensive cores and putting immediate pressure on the opposing player. This meta is not much different. Both posts summarize the arguments for and against a Shell Smash ban well so I don't think I need to go too much in depth, but here is a replay showing how Shell Smash can easily turn the tide of a game.

So, I'd like to hold a poll with three options:
1. Ban Fishious Rend
2. Ban Shell Smash
3. Other: Take another action, or none at all

Since this meta is somewhat lacking in players I won't require a strict GXE requirement, but I would appreciate it if you could add a bit of reasoning and/or proof of some meta knowledge.

Fishious Rend

Fishious Rend is tough to deal with. In combination with Wicked Blow, Ash-Greninja is a force to be reckoned with. Surging Strikes is still very strong, but there are notable things that it doesn't take down that Fishious Rend does (Defensive Gyarados-Mega, for example, is 2HKOed by Band Adaptability Fishious Rend from Ash-Gren outside of Rain, but is not by Band Sniper Surging Strikes outside of Rain). Additionally, Surging Strikes sets have to deal with additional damage from Rocky Helmet, which encourages careful use of the move. Fishious Rend is a one and done. Fishious Rend also has twice the PP as Surging Strikes. A theoretical way to potentially deal with Fishious Rend is to utilize priority recovery of some sort to keep the move weaker (this is the only situation in which Surging Strikes could be legitimately stronger), but if the foe isn't choiced they can just switch to a different move, or they foe can gain momentum by switching out to something that punishes your Prankster mon. The differences add up. Conclusion? Surging Strikes would be a decent enough replacement for Fishious Rend, and would be far easier (and thus less stressful) to deal with overall. Therefore, I would move to Ban Fishious Rend.

Shell Smash

Shell Smash is the same old story as it's always been. Shell Smash is clearly the strongest setup option due to its immediate payoff in the departments of both speed and power. It's useful on both physical sweepers and special sweepers, it's a dream come true for mixed sweepers, and it's so splashable that entire teams are built around letting this move rip. But the question arises, is there really no way to deal with it? Yes and no. Oftentimes, teams with one to two Shell Smash mons like to make it their endgame, knocking out threats to their precious sweeper and coming in to knock down the remaining pins once the lane is opened for them. However, Shell Smash sweepers also have to take one dangerous turn to try and set themselves up. If you know your foe is going to attempt to Shell Smash, you can potentially switch something in that can deal with it, such as an Unaware mon or a Prankster Haze mon, or, if the situation demands it, you can use an option on your current mon to potentially cover yourself (My personal strategy with PHeal Normal Arceus in these cases is to use Shift Gear against slower Shell Smash mons and Spectral Thief on faster ones. If the foe Shell Smashes, their boosts will wind up stolen either way, and even if Arceus dies in the end, that's still a potential sweep that got stopped.) Spectral Thief is a major player here, discouraging use of Shell Smash willy-nilly, and while some people avoid it by using strong Normals, a good BH team should have more than one way to skin a cat in that regard. The presence of better Unaware mons than in Gen 8 BH and more options for Prankster mons makes it so that Shell Smash is not entirely encompassing. A lot of BH is accounting for the powerful setup options that having every move and ability at your fingertips can provide, Shell Smash being one of them. That being said, if not Shell Smash, it's Quiver Dance, Tail Glow (maybe with Triage or Speed Boost), or on the physical side Shift Gear. All of these options, while clearly not as strong as Shell Smash, are still powerful enough to keep setup sweepers from becoming irrelevant if Shell Smash is knocked down. So I will currently take a neutral stance on Shell Smash, but I lean towards the side of keeping it in the meta.

 

[SuperSkylake]

Ban both at once

Splashability and ease of use: They're both unhealthy especially since they can be spammed, put on any mon with halfway reasonable offensive stats (yes, even non-water types with high offensive stats can take advantage of Fisheous Rend's coverage, I've seen it), constrain teambuilding by heavy amounts (especially fishious), and just makes the game a lot less fun. There is no such thing as "playing around" Shell Smash or Fishious rend; if you don't come packing one of the half dozen or so walls bulky enough to take two Rends, you lose a mon every time it comes in. And you can't really build your team to answer all Smash variants, even with Imposter and prankster Haze which is already taking up two valuable team slots and which almost always fails against Smash spam.

Teleport: Speaking of mons coming in, Teleport is even better in National Dex than it is in gen 8 because it can bring in all of those ridiculously powerful breakers at 0 risk, instantly taking any momentum away from the opponent. So the offensive player using Teleport always has the momentum, which can be seen if you face some of the Rain or Sun teams running around right now. They just use teleport on their rain or sun setter and bring something in. If the opponent lacks Taunt, he is forced on to the defensive. Shell Smash is a little less synergistic with Teleport than weather abuse because the user still has to take a turn activating it, but on Smash spam, just teleport in the right spammer for the job, and go from there, so it does help a lot.

Power Creep: The arguments for shell smash in gen 7 hold even more this gen because move power has only gone up and we're still using the same defensive mons as last gen. The only new defensive ability we have gained of any note is Ice Scales, which doesn't protect from physical moves or moldy moves, making it a much weaker talking point in these discussions as well. Just get rid of both rend and smash please. And then maybe we can also discuss V-Create, because it's just way too powerful as well.

 

[lepton]

So I've played and watched several games in the meta and two moves stand out as possibly unhealthy:Fishious Rend and Shell Smash.

superSkylake's take on Fishious Rend

SL's take on Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak

Fishious Rend Greninja-Ash is very difficult to switch into - its high Speed allows it to force many mons out, and without a resist and Fur Coat even the bulkiest of mons are forced to recover the next turn or are 2HKOd outright. As a result it forces one to use specific walls to check Greninja-Ash, indicating its unhealthiness. Gyarados-Mega, while not nearly as fast as Greninja-Ash, is another abuser of Fishious Rend. It can easily shore up its low speed by using Shell Smash, allowing it to OHKO almost all of the tier. Which brings me to the next suspectable move:


Gen 7 and Gen 8 BH have both suspected Shell Smash because of its ability to boost both offenses and Speed, which can be abused by setup sweepers to overwhelm defensive cores and putting immediate pressure on the opposing player. This meta is not much different. Both posts summarize the arguments for and against a Shell Smash ban well so I don't think I need to go too much in depth, but here is a replay showing how Shell Smash can easily turn the tide of a game.

So, I'd like to hold a poll with three options:
1. Ban Fishious Rend
2. Ban Shell Smash
3. Other: Take another action, or none at all

Since this meta is somewhat lacking in players I won't require a strict GXE requirement, but I would appreciate it if you could add a bit of reasoning and/or proof of some meta knowledge.

ban smash, unsure about fishious

reasoning

smash is broken, but more importantly, it is unhealthy. Every single offensive mon must be played around differently or you risk losing an important defensive mon or the game. if a mon gets a free switch into a mon it forces out, with smash (or setup in general but its exacerbated with smash) it becomes a 50/50 between switching into your counter or clicking spectral (because every fat mon is forced to have spectral). if you switch and they click smash, sometimes your wall just dies. if you stay in and they click a move your mon (thats presumably not a check) dies. if there is a mon that you think is smash, and you switch in your prank/unaware mon, if they turn out to be sflo or something, then ur prank is dead and you lose to their smash mon.

I know lures are a part of pokemon, and especially bh, but i dont think the extent smash allows them is healthy or balanced.
hopefully i explained this well enough

fishious: i dont know if it is broken or smash is making it broken, so i would like to wait and see, at least for now (you can convince me otherwise with good reasoning)

 

[a loser]

I was gonna post this before the discussion got sparked yesterday but didn't finish, so now I'll just tack on some of my thoughts. Anaconja even sniped the replay I was gonna share with my post, smh man.

Shell Smash, especially when combined with moves like Bolt/Rend, V-create, and even things like Wicked Blow and Triple Axel makes building really tough. Especially since Dynamax was silently banned and you can't defensively Dynamax to survive a boosted hit in a pinch. Moves like Wicked Blow make it really hard on Prankster Haze Ghost-types and if you aren't running a Prankster Ghost then it is easy to find a teammate like DGZ or Mega Dianice to keep pressure on things like Zygarde-C, Zamazenta-C, etc.

I don't think that the attacking moves are necessarily the ones that are broken here. Yeah they are really powerful, but Primal Groudon's existence makes it really hard to spam Bolt/Rend, especially if paired with a Fairy- or Dark-type to stomach a Wicked Blow or other coverage. I agree with Chessking's points about us potentially being too used to defensive cores from Gen 7 BH that didn't have to be prepared for such powerful Water-type attackers. So basically, I think Shell Smash is the more immediate unhealthy aspect of this meta and that we still need some time to adapt to things like Rend, but potentially could have to look at banning it later on.

Another thing that I think would help the meta is Forme Clause over Species Clause. Gen 8 Balanced Hackmons has seen success with the Forme Clause and allows players to use healthy combinations of mons like Darmanitan-Zen and Darmanitan-Zen-Galar and combinations of crowned and base forme dogs. This would also allow the use of both Mega Mewtwos (and Charizards, if you wanted to do that for some reason) in this meta. I know some people are concerned about Arceus spam being an issue with Forme Clause, but I don't know enough about running multiple Arceus on a team to really comment on that.

Lastly, I was disappointed to see Dynamax get quick banned with such little discussion. The question was asked while the meta was still dealing with OHKO moves, CFZs, and evasion. Plus, only two responses were given with one of them coming from the most vocal anti-Dynamax player we have in BH and the other from Test Rex, whom I adore, but you can hardly tell when they are being serious or kidding most of the time. I just wish a little more thought/discussion had gone into a decision this big.

I understand that things like Yveltal benefiting from its great STABs to boost its Speed and lower the target's SpD with Max Airstream and Max Darkness could potentially be problematic, but I think that Dynamax could play a huge role defensively. Especially so if Shell Smash ends up staying around. It just sounds nice to not auto-lose a mon or a battle to things like Smash, Drum, or Tail Glow Triage. MMX could also be a scary Dynamaxer with Max Knuckle to boost attack, but at least it would have to deal with Max Mindstorm being a special attack when using Photon Geyser.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

I’d say make a poll (or something) on Dynamax. Maybe unban it then do a suspect test? IDK

 

[FireByTheReins]

Honestly Rend desnt need to be banned for water absorb but otherwise i agree

~~Water Absorb Groudon~~

 

[Champion Leon]

I don’t think we need to ban either.

I think we should unban Dynamax, and then see if Smash is still a problem. It’s really important we verify all factors.
Bear in mind Dynamax also brings Rain, Terrain, so you will have Rend with Rain after it is done, so if Ash-Greninja is using Adaptability, it will be stronger during and after Dynamax, especially if using Life Orb.

Even during Dynamax : Rain + Max- Geyser > Fishous Rend.

That being said, Dynamaxing doesn’t block Shell Smash. You have three turns to tank Shell Smash, but if they have another Shell Smasher, or they switch it out when you are Dynamaxed (especially Baton Pass), then Dynamax isn’t a cure, it’s more like a supplemental Multi-Scale of sorts.

If you want to handle Smash, use Taunt, Spectral, Topsy, Haze, all of which cannot be used during Dynamax (giving them more set up against your Dynamaxed defense), Imprison + Shell Smash, or rely on Immunities / Fur Coat / Ice Scales.

If they pack Mold Breaker, at least that means they are not packing a boosting ability like Adaptability.

TLDR: I think we should unban Dynamax first, and see if it is still a problem.

But I also know that Dynamax isn’t a cure, if Shell Smash ends up being unhealthy for the metagame. Dynamax limits your move options as a defender, and could even force you out if they set up on your Dynamax - knowing you cannot Haze, or Recover.

For example: Shell Smash Simple Slaking with White Herb: Shell Smash, Multi-Attack, Storm Throw, Wicked / Power Trip.

Not a good set, but just an example of power: Simple Smash is a 3x offense multiplier, while Dynamax is only a 2x bulk multiplier, cannot be Spectraled, and during Dynamax of its own, it can boost its Attack by +2, thanks to Simple, effectively maxing its Atk by the second turn (if it Dynamaxes) as it attacks.

What can Dynamax do? Lower Ladder sets like that can put a stop to anything but Prankster Haze / Topsy, as even Unaware has to stomach Moldy / Moldy Moves, and Power Trip.

 

[dimrah]

bh players:Bring tina/zyg back to wall vfb! gf: Here is wicked blow and triple acel trollface

Now i dont think there is any meta stability to discuss in this mode yet but i dont think its rocket science to see that vfb plus smash with no shed and no dynamax creates too volatile of a game.Personally ive had enough of shed and dynamax to want them back,and now if between vfb and smash has to go i would chose the first.Triage wing is less bp than unboosted adapt rend/beak and triage is hard to be mixed sets.What pileosnd said about switching to smash to a potential smash is same situation dynamax creats and usually unhealthy for both sides,sucks having to sack cuz u didnt go prank,sucks even getting a lucky kill cuz u stayed and they smashed when they could ohko you.Vfb wasnt used with gen7 mons,i think we should have time to explore if they are broken or healthy(i personally feel gen7bh meta was/is too stally)on the other hand smash doesnt offer much new tools to play with.
Other stuff psysurge at 1.3 i think is fine and uhh i wana use both m2s but if i see arceus spam i go back to spaming pink blobs in gen8

 

[Chessking345]

On Shell Smash:
Pretty easy ban from me. Incredibly dumb to play against and super easy to cheese wins out of nowhere. Arguments like Unaware walls it! doesn't make sense when Unaware is so bad right now because you basically need defensive abilities or utility abilities, which Unaware does not give (I would say its worse than gen 7 lol). Prankster Haze is great at all but what are the chances you can bring two Pranksters or your opponent somehow does not have a single mon in his entire team of 6 smashers that is capable of breaking past your Prankster unboosted.

On Fishious Rend:
I am taking a neutral position on this leaning towards no ban, at least until Smash gets banned. Fish is strong and all with basically no drawbacks and can be used on nearly everything but there are overall more bulky mons and resists in this meta, such as Arceus formes, Giratina, Zygarde (counts as a resist for me tbh), PDon. Obviously stuff like Ashgren Wicked Blow is really threatening but I really don't see the difference between Ashgren and some other wallbreaker like MMX and feel like we just have to adapt to this and bring bulky Water- and Dark- resists similar to how we have Fairy- and Psychic- and Fighting- resists on every team. Might change my opinion on this after Smash gets banned but rn these are quite connected to ban both at the same time.

On Other Stuff:
I don't really think Psysurge is a big problem especially when Smash is a large reason why it would be a problem.
V-create is pretty dumb but I don't see it being more broken than other stuff.
Bolt Beak is more dumb and could be more dumb than Fishious Rend seeing it provides really good coverage on good breakers already but it does have worse overall coverage.
I don't find Species clause worth implementing but if Arceus clause is possible then I don't really care too much. Having restrictive teambuilding and opportunity costs in using mons like Zacian Zamazenta Mewtwo is interesting.

 

[Champion Leon]

I am trying to support keeping Fishous Rend.

I also agree that fishious rend isn't broken. i've been using fc mgyara and not only does it deal with every fishious user, it's a good mon in its own right cause it has neat resistances to fire/ice/ghost/dark and can even beat out bolt beak users thanks to king's shield. gyara is just one of many good water resists in this metagame including etern, gira, pdon, zekrom, and fc ogre, so fishious rend is fairly easy to prepare for and thus is not banworthy.

Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request) Thank you for helping me shorten my point above,

Sample Set

Gyarados-Mega @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Knock Off
- King’s Shield / Baneful Bunker
- Recover / Strength Sap

Gyarados-Mega can survive Bolt Beak as well; even after Stealth Rocks, and just stall with Strength Sap.

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Greninja-Ash Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega: 266-314 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Beedrill-Mega Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega: 272-322 (69 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega: 286-338 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While you obviously wouldn’t come into a Choice user without a slow pivot first, to see what move they will use, Gyarados-Mega can bluff Motor Drive / Volt Absorb, or if they stay in, survive and use Strength Sap.

While you obviously wouldn’t come into a Choice user without a slow pivot first, to see what move they will use, Gyarados-Mega can bluff Motor Drive / Volt Absorb, or if they stay in, survive and use Strength Sap.

It can also fish for Knock Offs on the opponents switch in, such as if you come in on Lunala, Force it out, and Knock Off on their switch, so they lose an item.

I slashed Baneful Bunker, as a last resort so you can punish things before you switch out, such as MMX, and Partners well with Rocky Helmet for residual damage. Bunker is also the perfect punishment for U-Turns that Gyarados-Mega attracts due to its Dark-typing.

King’s Shield works with Leftovers and Recover to stall out by reducing damage, and then healing, with Leftovers turning 2HKOs into 3HKOs:

So you would King’s Shield first, then they would still try and hit you, if they don’t know you are Fur Coat, but you survive, then heal with Recover, and King’s Shield again to force a switch.

So after 1 King’s Shield:

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So if Recover + Leftovers is a 56.25% heal, you almost took nothing

Even for stuff like Zekrom:

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zekrom Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega: 300-354 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

10.2% + 6.25% = 18.45% + Recover = 68.45%

Since they know your next turn would just be another King’s Shield, they would be the ones who have to switch out, not you...

68.45% + 6.25% = 74.7% from 2nd King’s Shield

-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Zekrom Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega: 224-266 (56.8 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Unless it’s their last Pokemon, you have forced them out

I think Fur Coat is great for something like Gyarados-Mega because it also reduces damage from Secret Sword, while it’s Dark-typing blocks Photon Geyser, Psystrike, and it resists Sunsteel, and Moongeist from the SpA end.

Its also a nice resist to Fire, without an Ice weakness, (Zygarde-Complete fears Triple Axel, and Darm-G-Z in general, Giratina fears Wicked Blow, and Arceus is also afraid of Wicked Blow if it resists Water).

It makes for a great Kyogre counter, as PH Kyogre packs Ice Beam, Water Spout, Quiver Dance, etc., but Gyarados-Mega can Spectral Thief.

+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So Gyarados can come in, even at +1 Water Spout, and then Spectral it’s boosts, raising its own Speed and SpD in the process, or use Recover / Knock Off if it suspects a switch.

This set is not a one-trick pony, it provides a powerful STAB Knock Off for both good initial damage and long-term utility, resists Moldy moves so unless the opponent is packing Mold Breaker On other moves, it’s resistance is often enough, and it can threaten Ghosts and Psychics while preventing most set up.

Normal PHers are a problem, but other Pokemon can handle them, like Prankster Giratina, who has perfect type synergy with Gyarados-Mega, resisting or having immunity to most of its weaknesses besides Fairy, and vice versa.

Imposter wouldn’t want to come in for for fear of Knock Off, and possibly Baneful Bunker.

 

[anaconja]

I don't believe there'll be any more votes for the poll so I'll end it now.


Shell Smash is being suspected. Here are the guidelines:

• All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! National Dex BH ladder on a new alt account that has "SSS" in it anywhere, but not separated. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

ssstresh fart ✓
stresh farts X

• To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 20 games, and you must have a minimum GXE of 72. (These are due to change if we find that the reqs are too hard/easy.)
• The suspect test will end on July 25th (11:59pm PST). Shell Smash will be allowed on the suspect ladder.
• A super-majority of 60% ban is required for Shell Smash to be banned
• Post your proof of reqs and your vote in the thread, along with your thoughts if you wish.
  • You MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP. This is important.

Also, I'd like to welcome the new council: Chessking345, a loser, and SuperSkylake!

edit: Forme Clause and Arceus Clause will be implemented soon!

 

[Champion Leon]

1st 1 and Done!

Here is my proof!

Vote to NOT BAN

The Extra S at the end is because I am an S-List Celebraty
Also here is my new favorite set:

Hide

P.S. The full premier of my new set!

I call it...

The New Marshadow!

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Precipice Blades
- Bolt Beak
- Poltergeist

Ground is arguably better than Fighting to KO stuff like Groudon-P, and with Poltergeist, you can get the leg up on Giratina!

+4 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 544-640 (107.9 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As for Zygarde:

+6 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 645-759 (101.4 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 586-691 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

If it ain't Fur Coat Prankster, it ain't gonna live!

The great thing about Bolt Beak, is when it comes to nuetral hits, you can click that over Precipice Blades since they are almost the same base power, and Bolt Beak has 100% accuracy!

In the least, you don't lose Defenses from Precipice Blades, so you can take priority from stuff like Diancie-Mega's Extreme Speed enough to survive and KO:

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Landorus-Therian: 186-220 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO

Something Marshadow cannot do as well if it uses Close Combat, but Kyurem-B comes in with Extreme Speed.

That Landorus-Therian set I was trying to complete in Discord yesterday is complete!

Evidence: (Please be advised a forfeit means my sweep is unstoppable)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1149617106-8sfp34fmqkfy9e1j3dztjk29qykest6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1149630451-1kozhfe5rp1owr4eb7wx6roihezmskcpw

P.S. Everyone reading this! Jump on the ladder now while there is activity, it will be hard to get matches on slow days, its too new for us to have a player base. Seriously, now is the best time.

Also for anyone wondering about No Retreat's effects:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1149571707

For anyone interested in my team, here it is:

Imposterproof to the max!

Marshadow @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Belly Drum
- Poltergeist
- Close Combat

Imposter = free set-up, and due to nuetrality to Knock Off, it actually doesn't mind it, and can still Belly Drum off most mons, including Dark Arceus form:

252 Atk Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Marshadow: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

Mach Punch helps against Prankster Hazers weak to it.

+6 252+ Atk Marshadow Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Steel/Dark/Normal : 390-458 (87.8 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Precipice Blades
- Bolt Beak
- Poltergeist

No priority, but no repeat-types either.

This works for easy surprises, KOing Water-types like Gyarados-Mega

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados-Mega: 328-388 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Giratina @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Destiny Bond
- Haze
- Recover
- Core Enforcer

A stop-all to my entire team, including Reshiram, thanks to Judgment, in the random event that Imposter comes in, while I am hit with Toxic Spikes, Giratina stops it all, and isn't threaten by Imposter Gyarados.

Giratina is also a nice sacrifice, if needed, while threatening PHealers.

Slaking @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Spectral Thief
- Facade
- Spore

Pretty standard

Reshiram @ Draco Plate
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Judgment
- Blue Flare
- Strength Sap

Awesome! Strength Sap makes it extremely hard for Imposter to heal, as I damage with Judgement. Simple is because Quiver Dance is simply too slow otherwise, and it helps fight against PH Arceus-Fairy, thanks to Blue Flare, and the sheer multiplier of Simple.

Anchor Shotters that think they can stall out Strength Sap are burned alive, and still have a 20% Burn chance.

Gyarados-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- King's Shield
- Spectral Thief
- Roost
- Beak Blast

This mon punishes everything, from U-turn, to Knock-Off. Beak Blast is also a punish to opposing Imposters, or anything else with Spectral Thief if they try and steal boosts I have stolen.

Even MMX is outstalled by this thing: King's Shield, followed by Beak Blast on the turn it lands Close Combat.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

28% + 6.25% = 34.25%

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Beak Blast vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 294-348 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, MMX is Burned and will only deal 36% damage max, which gets King's Shielded as I heal, and MMX would have been nearly KOed.

Gyarados-Mega's Beak Blast is a game changer.

Replay of Reshiram:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1149638390-m3kka0tlnc2i4xkb6mtlisujj294fjopw

My team's victory in Ladder/Reqs shows I didn't use Shell Smash whatsoever, while I had 4 set-up mons, or 5 if you consider Gyarados-Mega's Spectral Thief.

Easy, breezy, beautiful, Cover Girl Team.

 

[Caionamax]

1st 1 and Done!

Here is my proof!

View attachment 261295

Vote to NOT BAN

The Extra S at the end is because I am an S-List Celebraty

Before you continue, play this awesome cover being viewed by the original artist for "Say So"

Also here is my new favorite set:

Hide

P.S. The full premier of my new set!

I call it...

The New Marshadow!

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Precipice Blades
- Bolt Beak
- Poltergeist

Ground is arguably better than Fighting to KO stuff like Groudon-P, and with Poltergeist, you can get the leg up on Giratina!

+4 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 544-640 (107.9 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As for Zygarde:

+6 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 645-759 (101.4 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 586-691 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

If it ain't Fur Coat Prankster, it ain't gonna live!

The great thing about Bolt Beak, is when it comes to nuetral hits, you can click that over Precipice Blades since they are almost the same base power, and Bolt Beak has 100% accuracy!

In the least, you don't lose Defenses from Precipice Blades, so you can take priority from stuff like Diancie-Mega's Extreme Speed enough to survive and KO:

252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Landorus-Therian: 186-220 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO

Something Marshadow cannot do as well if it uses Close Combat, but Kyurem-B comes in with Extreme Speed.

That Landorus-Therian set I was trying to complete in Discord yesterday is complete!

Evidence: (Please be advised a forfeit means my sweep is unstoppable)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1149617106-8sfp34fmqkfy9e1j3dztjk29qykest6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1149630451-1kozhfe5rp1owr4eb7wx6roihezmskcpw

P.S. Everyone reading this! Jump on the ladder now while there is activity, it will be hard to get matches on slow days, its too new for us to have a player base. Seriously, now is the best time.

Also for anyone wondering about No Retreat's effects:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1149571707

For anyone interested in my team, here it is:

Imposterproof to the max!

Marshadow @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Belly Drum
- Poltergeist
- Close Combat

Imposter = free set-up, and due to nuetrality to Knock Off, it actually doesn't mind it, and can still Belly Drum off most mons, including Dark Arceus form:

252 Atk Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Marshadow: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

Mach Punch helps against Prankster Hazers weak to it.

+6 252+ Atk Marshadow Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Steel/Dark/Normal : 390-458 (87.8 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Precipice Blades
- Bolt Beak
- Poltergeist

No priority, but no repeat-types either.

This works for easy surprises, KOing Water-types like Gyarados-Mega

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados-Mega: 328-388 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Giratina @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Destiny Bond
- Haze
- Recover
- Core Enforcer

A stop-all to my entire team, including Reshiram, thanks to Judgment, in the random event that Imposter comes in, while I am hit with Toxic Spikes, Giratina stops it all, and isn't threaten by Imposter Gyarados.

Giratina is also a nice sacrifice, if needed, while threatening PHealers.

Slaking @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Spectral Thief
- Facade
- Spore

Pretty standard

Reshiram @ Draco Plate
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Judgment
- Blue Flare
- Strength Sap

Awesome! Strength Sap makes it extremely hard for Imposter to heal, as I damage with Judgement. Simple is because Quiver Dance is simply too slow otherwise, and it helps fight against PH Arceus-Fairy, thanks to Blue Flare, and the sheer multiplier of Simple.

Anchor Shotters that think they can stall out Strength Sap are burned alive, and still have a 20% Burn chance.

Gyarados-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- King's Shield
- Spectral Thief
- Roost
- Beak Blast

This mon punishes everything, from U-turn, to Knock-Off. Beak Blast is also a punish to opposing Imposters, or anything else with Spectral Thief if they try and steal boosts I have stolen.

Even MMX is outstalled by this thing: King's Shield, followed by Beak Blast on the turn it lands Close Combat.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

28% + 6.25% = 34.25%

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Beak Blast vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 294-348 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, MMX is Burned and will only deal 36% damage max, which gets King's Shielded as I heal, and MMX would have been nearly KOed.

Gyarados-Mega's Beak Blast is a game changer.

Replay of Reshiram:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1149638390-m3kka0tlnc2i4xkb6mtlisujj294fjopw

My team's victory in Ladder/Reqs shows I didn't use Shell Smash whatsoever, while I had 4 set-up mons, or 5 if you consider Gyarados-Mega's Spectral Thief.

Easy, breezy, beautiful, Cover Girl Team.

Your team seems really good, but I have only a question: why speed boost over unburden?