Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

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I've been experimenting with the core of Grookey + Clauncher. Now, even after I'm done making this post, I still don't believe Clauncher is all that good compared to other offensive Water-types like the newly-released Staryu. However, Clauncher did get a new toy this generation that I feel gives it a niche. While it lost Hidden Power coverage, it got something new in return: Terrain Pulse.

This is the terrain variant of Weather Ball: a 50 Base Power Normal-type move that doubles in power and changes its type based on the terrain the user is in, giving Clauncher a 100 BP Grass-type move under the effects of Grassy Terrain. On top of this, Terrain Pulse is a Pulse-type attack, meaning it's boosted by Mega Launcher. With the combination of the doubled base power, the Grass-type move being boosted by Terrain, AND the boost from Mega Launcher, you get this:
terrain.png


This is effectively Clauncher's strongest attack, even more powerful than STAB Water Pulse / Surf. This lets you achieve quite a few nutty things:

212+ SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Clauncher Terrain Pulse (100 BP) vs. 196 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Mareanie in Grassy Terrain: 14-17 (58.3 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

212+ SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Clauncher Terrain Pulse (100 BP) vs. 52 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Dewpider in Grassy Terrain: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

212+ SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Clauncher Terrain Pulse (100 BP) vs. 236 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Frillish in Grassy Terrain: 26-31 (104 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

212+ SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Clauncher Terrain Pulse (100 BP) vs. 68 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Shellos in Grassy Terrain: 29-34 (116 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO

212+ SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Clauncher Terrain Pulse (100 BP) vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee in Grassy Terrain: 14-17 (51.8 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

212+ SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Clauncher Terrain Pulse (100 BP) vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Wynaut in Grassy Terrain: 25-30 (89.2 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Most Water-types are obliterated, and the bulkier Grass-neutral targets, like Mareanie, Tentacool, and Dewpider, are 2HKOd. Meanwhile, it does very powerful neutral damage to everything that doesn't resist Grass.

Again, I still feel Clauncher is outclassed by Staryu due to the latter's better Speed, overall coverage, and Analytic, but Clauncher at the very least has qualities that Staryu doesn't have, one of those being actual coverage to 2HKO Ferroseed with Mega Launcher-boosted Aura Sphere. Staryu used to have Hidden Power Fire in older generations, but HP no longer exists in Gen 8.

Here's a replay of Clauncher in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1140158301
 

Coconut

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Now that the DLC has run its course and the metagame has shifted a bit. Let's talk about the eagle. Rufflet's biggest reason for it's prior ban was the two sets that it ran. The Choice Scarf set hit hard, but was stopped by your typical Flying checks and counters. With that in mind, those same limited checks could potentially be cracked by Rufflet's other prominent set, as a Bulk Up made it difficult for even dedicated Flying counters like Onix to do enough damage to break through the set.

With the new additions to the metagame tending to be more specially biased, the Bulk Up set would now be too slow to effectively break teams, and the Scarf set loses to the same things it has in metagames past. It is this line of thinking that suggests that Rufflet is a reasonable thing to retest in the current metagame. The council generally agrees that Rufflet deserves a re-suspect, as it has the potential to add to our metagame in a healthy way. Others claim that it could potentially disrupt the current metagame that is focused on more soft-checks to flying types.

While we are likely to tackle this mon in our near future, I am hoping that we can get some discussion from outside of the council to see what people think about reintroducing Rufflet into our metagame, the potential ramifications for it, and the potential benefits that we are missing. We are likely to do a resuspect if we choose to test it, so it will be an open suspect. So you'll have plenty of time to complain about Hustle on the ladder.
 

ghost

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Rufflet is worth a second look. However, we should note that post-SS is not SM in terms of flying check variety; we're still down the fossils, so realistically any given team will be forced to run Onix or Pawniard as their rocker and flying resist. Sturdy Juice Magnemite is a new check that might fit in this vein but is relatively rare now (and doesn't check the other birds well). Rufflet is a tremendous problem for Ferrospritz and Mudbray rocker teams that for now can get away with soft-checking Vullaby and Wingull.

Rufflet's main threat here is Choice Band, a set that I think was even more threatening and meta-defining than Scarf while it was around and is capable of completely destroying almost literally any mon in the tier with the right move. This is still the case, although 16 is a notably worse speed tier now with the reintroduction of fast threats like Staryu, Abra, and Mienfoo. The Bulk Up sets could hypothetically still work, though they have poor synergy with webs due to having less immediate punch and suffer severely from the addition of speed and special offense.

I think there's a chance Rufflet is unhealthy for similar reasons to before, but the landscape has changed enough that a resuspect is merited.
 
yep, im gonna talk about Rufflet.







Why was Rufflet banned ?



-1. Rufflet has a lot of sets.


Yeah, indeed Rufflet has a lot of sets, and it is almost impossible to guess which one it is from team preview. Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Bulk Up, Bulk Up Facade, Double Dance...


-2. Trappers help Rufflet a lot.


Trapinch and Diglett are incredible Rufflet partners, apart from the CB and Scarf set. Trappers can also help a setup Rufflet, while that is usually harder since this set doesn't have U-Turn, it is not as hard to trap them in practice. The Rufflet + trapper + mon which likes Onix gone (usually either Vullaby or Ponyta) core was pretty good and uncompetitive at that moment.


-3. Rufflet forces a lot of 50/50s.


Like I was saying before, Rufflet (working together with trappers), makes a lot of important 50/50s. If you are playing against a Rufflet you must win every 50/50, if Rufflet wins only one 50/50 that means your flying resists either died to cc or they were trapped by Trapinch / Diglett, which means that the game is over.



-4. Rufflet is uncompetitive because it makes the luckiest player win.


Yeah, it is Pokemon and the player with more luck usually wins either way, but Rufflet abuses and exploits that idea. For example, in a lot of games Rufflet wins if it hit one of his 80% moves or not, if your Mareanie burned the Rufflet or not, etc. Ninjadog explained that really well. Rufflet will force RNG thanks to Hustle almost every time it takes the field.

One argument I've seen against a Rufflet ban is because it has a 20% chance to miss every attack (bar Aerial Ace) and so it isn't that good as it'll rarely hit every attack, but as KSG talked about earlier I think this is something we should strive to avoid. Obviously there will always be % chances in every game particularly with LC's rolls, but Rufflet will force RNG thanks to Hustle almost every time it takes the field.


Will Rufflet be freed ? And if he will be freed, won't he be broken ?




-1. The meta changed, Rufflet won't be as good.



I think we all can agree with that, with the DLC, we now have things in the tier like Staryu, Magnemite, Regular Vulpix, etc which can revenge kill Rufflet easily. Also like KSG said in the lc discord, we will get the fossils back in the next DLC, which means new flying resists, however, I won't give this point too much relevance since we are talking about the current metagame.


-2. Knowing that the state of the metagame won't be as good for Rufflet, Rufflet will still be broken?.


I honestly think so, in my opinion, Rufflet will be still broken, it has like 1 new flying resist in Magnemite and new revenge killers. However, let's imagine that it won't be broken, should it be freed then? In my opinion, the answer is no. Even if Rufflet won't be broken, he will still be an uncompetitive pokemon, which can exploit and abuse RNG as I said before, Rufflet will still force these 50/50s, this new post-DLC meta is SS and it is not SM.


-3. Setting up is harder now, but is still something possible and really good.


Like Coconut said before, Rufflet needs more speed to set up now, the Bulk Up set won't be as good, but Rufflet still has Agility! Agility Bulk Up or just even Agility 3 attacks will still be nice sets that can break teams easily. I think Scarf or Choice Band are the better options now though. so yes, Rufflet still has the same sets and even if some are not as good as they were, all of them can work properly.


~Conclusion~



I really think this thing will be broken and uncompetitive like he was in the pre DLC meta. However, I understand what the council is doing and I like it, the metagame seems fine right now, so why not try to retest things? I honestly also feel like we all are not being 100% objective and judging this is hard, like, who wants this thing back? Almost everyone hates this mon because it creates a lot of RNG and it makes you feel like the world is against you because your opponent hits every single Brave Bird but you miss 3 in a row. However, I hope Rufflet will get a fair and objective retest. My vote would be still ban though, at least for the moment, maybe I will change my mind.



Shoutouts to amuse, for helping me with the translation, to Coconut for inviting me to post my opinion here and to Ninjadog, for his incredible post in the LC Suspect - Ruff Boy thread.

Don't be scared to post your opinions here too guys, I will read your posts.

Peace.

 
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Berks

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If we really are getting fossils back in the next DLC then I think Rufflet ought to wait to be retested until then. The meta is now slightly more unfriendly to Rufflet, but I don’t think it’s changed enough yet.

e: staying focused on the discussion
 
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I'm not a guy who writes long posts about why things should be banned, but I think Rufflet would still be broken if we choose to free it. The main ways Rufflet were dealt with in the previous meta involved scouting the set and attempting to set up rocks as quickly as possible to minimise the amount of times it could enter the field. This in tandem with recoil from brave bird normally meant Rufflet could lose up to half its health at a minimal cost. However, the DLC has brought us far better hazard removal options than pre DLC. Pre DLC, the main hazard removers were Berry Juice Vullaby, Eviolite defensive Timburr and rapid spin Drillburr. The DLC gave us Staryu which is another remover which just adds to Rufflet's ability to come in multiple times within a match.

The second point I want to make is very simple, its moves two hit the entire meta, without the requirement of a boosting item. Calcs like the following show its strength and how difficult it can be to deal with.
252 Atk Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 228 HP / 132+ Def Eviolite Shellos: 16-21 (59.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hustle Rufflet Close Combat vs. 84 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Vullaby: 24-28 (104.3 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Rufflet also possesses u turn which is an amazing pivot move which can allow Rufflet's teammates such as Diglett or Trapinch to remove resists. This forces teams that utilise resists such as Pawniard, Onix and Magnemite to be removed from the match, allowing easier predictions when playing.

I do think there have been progressions within the metagame that mean Rufflet may not be as harmful such as the introduction of Abra, Staryu, Berry Juice recycle Magnemite, Choice Scarf Vulpix, however I still believe it will be too oppressive in the current meta.
 

DC

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Although I don't mind a re-test, I don't think the metagame has shifted to a point where Rufflet would be manageable or healthy for the tier. Its most threatening set, Choice Band, still decimates stuff with checks such as BJ Onix and Pawn taking like 50-60% from BB or dying outright to CC. Choice Scarf is still an amazing cleaner/sweeper that outspeeds all its would-be offensive answers such as Abra and Staryu. I do think Bulk Up sets would be less good in this meta, but thats 1 out of 3 sets. New answers like Sturyjuice Mag, Sashbra, and Staryu to counteract Rufflet still loses to it when it supported by trappers such as Diglett or Trapinch or under Sticky Web. In conclusion, Rufflet would just be too unhealthy for the current metagame.
 
Rufflet in theory is undeniably a fantastic Pokemon. Insanely high Attack stat combined with high Base Power STAB (Brave Bird), as well as Close Combat for coverage and U-turn for momentum. Throw Hustle into the mix and you now have a Pokemon that is virtually impossible to defensive answer with optimal play. What tends to be overlooked due to a combination of mediocre defensive typing and recoil from its best STAB option, is the bulk Rufflet possesses. 70/50/50 bulk is above average and allowed it to pull off Bulk Up sets in the last meta it was available to use. Although I think they may be worse in the current meta due to how much faster teams are on average, the uninvested defenses can still stand alone to benefit switching into lame neutral hits and tearing down teams from it. Rufflet will definitely be less flexible if a retest is to happen, max+ Speed EVs gets you to 16, and while that lets you outspeed or tie the majority of the metagame, you are very easy to force out afterwards. I believe outside of Sticky Web teams Choice Scarf will be the most viable set simply due to being able to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame, while still hitting extremely hard.

To go more into how DLC has impacted Rufflet and what separates Rufflet from the other offensive powerhouses such as Abra or Download Porygon. The most obvious point to make is that you cannot use Arena Trap to deal with Rufflet. It will simply switch out if it is low enough to be killed off by priority or coverage options from diglett if not running Choice Scarf. This is a massive difference between Rufflet & Abra in terms of offensively pressuring teams and Porygon to a lesser degree. Porygon on the other hand despite having the coverage options on par or even better than Rufflet is noticeably slower as well as unable to run Choice Scarf nearly as well as Rufflet due to a worse STAB option to spam. Defensive we also received little favors from Game Freak. Magnemite was the only new Check to Rufflet given to us and it drops hard to a Close Combat even if Sturdy Juice if Stealth Rock is down. U-turn can also simply lead to being trapped by Diglett or Trapinch, who will almost certainly be one of if not the most ideal teammates for Rufflet.

It would be extremely ignorant to ignore the Elephant in the room. Hustle can miss. Its massive upside has a significant drawback that can completely neuter the effectiveness of the Pokemon that has this ability. But Pokemon is full of luck elements and specifically moves that can miss. To claim Rufflet should be banned for "Uncompetitiveness" is refusing to acknowledge the game we play very well could be considered uncompetitive by the standards laid out. In my opinion, Rufflet is an extremely good Pokemon, and can devolve the game into 50/50s to almost an unhealthy degree, but with DLC we have had a massive metagame shift. I am entirely for a retest of Rufflet and hopefully as a community we can decide the appropriate fate for the bird.
 

Jox

LCPL Champion
Is Rufflet broken??

So let’s say we would unban Rufflet again, what would happen now that we have the DLC meta. I actually think that Rufflet got worse because:


- The meta got a bit faster with foo back in the meta ( Almost everyone uses foo )
- Great special attackers that can hit the bulk up set ( Vulpix, Abra, Magnemite, Staryu )
- Porygon that can counter trap trappers.

What would we gain with Rufflet back?

Well a physical flying type that is a great wallbreaker. The meta doesn’t really have any good physical flying types outside of Vullaby but she doesn’t have the coverage to hit rock/steel types.

Will the meta be healthier with Rufflet back?

Probably not. The meta can handle Rufflet way better now but that doesn’t make it good for the meta. Rufflet + webs still are insanely scary and Choice Band sets can 2 shot its counters with Brave Bird outside of Onix.

Perfect coverage, uncompetitive ability and multiple viable sets make me say no to the bird
1594929539805.png
 

fatty

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unfortunately, there’s no benefits to reintroducing ruff. it has an awkward defensive typing and doesn’t rly check anything in particular. this is the inherent problem with theoretically retesting broken offensive mons. the incentive is often very low, but nonetheless I’m happy this is being looked at because lc (and smog in general ig) has been notorious for not looking back on previously banned threats. having said that, though, I really don’t think enough has changed for ruff to warrant this particular retest. it would still do exactly what it did before and I don’t think a few more faster mons really makes all that much of a difference. we didn’t get any new switchins besides the very underwhelming magnemite, and if anything with more threats available it’s harder to justify slapping a bird resist on every team. when you base bans / unbans like this off of meta trends you often open a can of worms in which a mon like ruff is considered broken or balanced from one meta to the next. I think this is how mistakes are made and this should be avoided at all costs. rather, we should be looking at a specific mons capabilities and the reasonable counterplay that is available to counteract it. bu ruff doesn’t just crumble to fast special threats, and as previously mentioned we didn’t rly get any new meta defining checks to switch in to straight attacking sets. keep it banned for now.
 

Shrug

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i believe rufflet would still be broken. basically the tradeoff was a reduction in the number of outright sweeps it can pull off for an increase in both its ability to get in and its potency once it can fire off a move. the introduction of foo has made onix less prevalent (because you need a steel type for the special attackers and foo punishes severely fightweak redundancies) while introducing an easy way to get ruff in (through bulky slow uturns). so too with say porygon and its twave and teleport. scarf is obv a huge w against like 3 19 speeders aswell. just it would become another guess the set demon in a meta already trying to find a balance among two (abra and diglett).
 

Shrug

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the venn diagram of people who think "switching is an integral part of the game" and who believe "the only act that counts as sex is missionary position with the lights off for the purposes of procreation and also the woman has to get no pleasure from it and it also has to last fewer than 150 seconds" is a circle
 
I know one-liners are kind of not desired, but if we freed Gastly and Ruff (I know, not exactly adhering to policy but we also keep getting this slow trickle of mons)

196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Thunderbolt vs. 36 HP / 116+ SpD Eviolite Rufflet: 16-21 (66.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So we could just make LC great again and free both. Shrug, it's a turn-based strategy game, switching is 100% part of the game.
 
Warning this post is probably longer that its worth writing, not a meme but not far off, and is a result of a severe waste of time, energy and resources.

Okay, so I was playing around with Cubone on the ladder and it is actually stupid strong and real good with webs. We already kinda knew this, or at least assumed it to be true. I wanted to make a team with Cubone to use in an LCUU roomtours but I just didn't like the support options around me in the tier. I then decided to make one in regular LC. This isn't about that team. This is about Cubone. Cubone is as far as I know the only Pokémon which is born an orphan. Which is really wierd if you think about it so don't. Thanks to that sacrifice, Cubone has a little toy club that gives it 30 attack from jump street and 90 base def gives it 16 def, that's gotta be worth something right? Well not really because Satoshi Tajiri is a cruel, cruel man. 13 speed is pretty bad and needs a lot of support to get moving, but this little bastard shreds.


I didn't use them both on the same team, separate teams that operated similarly.

--Little set explanation--
Cubone hits damn near everything for at least neutral damage. 13 speed outpaces abra (&19s) on webs. unfortunately, porygon always get the +1 because base def is so high. (edit the stats on the side are wrong, it should have 12 SpD and 13 spe,)

I didn't save any replays because it's just not an instinct I have so sorry for that. But I am autistic enough to sit at my computer and run calculations.

Cubone bithces:
all calcs with evio if applicable
196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 16-20 (69.5 - 86.9%) good chance for an ohko w/rocks
196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 14-20 (53.8 - 76.9%) not bad!
196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 14-20 (56 - 80%) (fire punch does same)
196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-20 (58.3 - 83.3%)

196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Fire Punch vs. 84 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 24-32 (109 - 145.4%)
196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 116 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 14-20 (56 - 80%)
w/o 196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 116 HP / 196 Def Mudbray: 20-26 (80 - 104%)
196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Thunder Punch vs. 52 HP / 20 Def Eviolite Dewpider: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%)

196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 14-20 (58.3 - 83.3%)
196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 156 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Trapinch: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%)
196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-22 (72 - 88%)
w/o 196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Fire Punch vs. 204 HP / 196 Def Pumpkaboo-Super: 22-26 (88 - 104%)

196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Shellder: 14-18 (70 - 90%) (tpunch does same)
(i dont think anyone uses slowpoke but 196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 22-26 (81.4 - 96.2%))
196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Thunder Punch vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%)
196+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 22-26 (88 - 104%) (tpunch does not unless evio is knocked)

96+ Atk Thick Club Cubone Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Grookey: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%)
I don't need to include mareanie, but obviously its ko'd

vs onix:
236 Atk Onix Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%)
(obiously you cant KO sturdy onix on the first turn, so you'll take damage if its at full health or still has a bjuice)

vs pawniard:
+2 156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) (huge threat because of webs)

vs timburr:
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%)
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%)

vs dig in case of speed tie:
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 13-17 (61.9 - 80.9%)

vs mudbray:
36+ Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%)

vs pinch:
36 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cubone: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%)

So its obviously not like a world ender or anything and it's not new or revolutionary, but it does quite well against some of the more common threats in the metagame and you really just need to add webs and go.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1155300960-wr5k19eyr9urook52omnujam02reqftpw here is a replay i just got on a team that is bad and doesn't have webs but highlighted cubone pretty well
 
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As a practical matter, doesn't it make sense to re-test Rufflet once the Fossils/other Rock-types come out and focus on re-testing other things first? I mean it seems silly to re-test now, have it be banned again, and then re-test it again when there is an even more obvious anti-Rufflet DLC? We have to pick and choose what we're retesting due to limited time. I'm not sure if Rufflet is the best use of said time.
 
I've been someone who has lurked this forums for a decent amount of time, time and time again the community here never ceases to disappoint me. Trapping needs to be suspected in some way shape or form. I have seen a tendency of players to look the other way when it comes to diglett and it really shows.

Trapping has an extremely large impact on the meta right now for a couple reasons. There is absolutely zero reason to not use a trapper on team right now, they have no opportunity cost at the moment. They are splashable because they can fit on a variety of teams: balance, bulky offense, hyper offense, I've even seen them on web teams. At worst, they will take out at least one Pokemon guaranteed (if not more) and chances are you as a player have very little agency to prevent it.

Right now the most prominent use of trapping is getting rid of defensive pokemon for a spam core to clean up (fighting spam, flying spam, water spam, etc.) and also eliminating a few offensive mons like Ponyta and Abra. Some other teams employ a sweeper like NP Spritzee or Carv with a trapper (sometimes even two) to eliminate the potential block to a sweep and go to town unhindered. These spam type coverage teams are simply too effective with trapping at their disposal. We already have few to no viable flying checks in the tier, and trapping removes all of them bar honedge, which doesn't really count because it can't deal with Vullaby (or rufflet for that matter if it has shadow claw). There are only fraction of pokemon that aren't grounded / trappable in this meta, so trappers have a wide variety of pokemon they can target for their team.

In fact, diglett can basically run whatever moves it wants and still be viable, which is just bonkers to me. It has so many different sets and moves it can use to remain unpredictable and difficult to scout because its moveset and item is going to have. Eviolite diglett, sash diglett, life orb diglett, air balloon diglett, sludge bomb, final gambit, earth power diglett, memento diglett, giga drain trapinch, endure trapinch, etc. It is nigh impossible to determine the set just by looking at the player's team, and even if you might have an idea your guess that is wrong is costly. When trappers are using air balloon to beat each other, I think there is something wrong.

Inevitably someone will bring up that trappers are frail, and I fail to see how that matters in the grand scheme of things. first of all, trappers are heavily team based, and eviolite diglett / trap can survive a surprising amount of attacks such as tri attack from porygon or a flash cannon from magnemite. Everyone knows about u-turn allowing trappers in, so I'm not going too much into that, but I also think people are downplaying the importance of teleport in aiding trappers. Teleport is, in many cases, much more effective at getting trappers in because it ignores their main weakness. Porygon and staryu (lesser extent mag) are excellent teleport users considering they draw in ferroseed, which then loses to most diglett 1v1 if it has giga drain and not bullet seed, knocked, etc. In the best case senario it survives with like 4 hp with final gambit. For many teams, ferroseed is all that is stopping a potential corphish, abra, np/cm spritzee from running wild. This is just one out of many examples.

It is true that trapping removes player choice and agency. On any given turn there is a selection of options a player can do and switching is one of them. However, I personally think that the threat of not being able to KO the pokemon in front of you without being trapped is a bigger problem. Speaking with other people on this topic, I was often told "do not be in the position to be trapped." I cannot stress how flawed this comment is because literally the objective of winning the match puts the player in the position of being trapped. In some cases, the right play is not to get the kill right away and get it through some other means, but what if that other way never presents itself? Also keep in mind this effect on the player is entirely passive, the trapper does not even have to be on the field for the player to think about this, and considering that a team often has more than one trappable pokemon on it, this doesn't happen just once per battle.

Trappers obviously have warped the meta. Electric types are unreliable due to them, which should surprise no one. This obviously has consequences the next time you play a ladder match, count the amount of electric weaknesses on the teams - Vullaby, Staryu, Mearienie, Rufflet, Wingull, Dewpider, Shellos, etc. part of the reason why flying spam is so effective because the trappers have made one of the weaknesses of the team non existent. Teleport mag could be awesome in this meta. Soak Chinchou can be a great lure for foongus and ferroseed. We never get to see them though because trapping invalidates them, let alone posion types like Croagunk, Cufant, Salandit, and Stunky which can have obvious niches that have gone unnoticed due to trapping.

I've also heard the argument that not one threat in lc auto wins with its checks removed. My response to this is, in part, that many of the pokemon we banned were Pokemon that fulfilled that criteria. Some examples are floon and electric types, qt and ponyta, gastly and pawniard, etc. I am not saying these pokemon would be balanced by removing trapping (as we really have no way of knowing that), but undoubtedly trapping has in some way influenced these pokemon in getting the axe (particularly qt).

We have already seen just how versatile trappers are (esp. dig), and some of their support capabilities (sunny day dig, which I was surprised was not talked about that much with the sun suspect). I think when players start to use air balloon trappers and a battle of which trapper wins and comes out on top that might cross the line. This is not even mentioning the fact that shed shell is a troll item in lc.

Maybe we can actually give this some serious thought instead of just saying "get gud don't be put in the position to be trapped"
 
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someguy
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You write with a lot of contempt. Some of this was indirectly targeting me as the guy who told you to get better at positioning. This contempt is not helpful. Similarly, the post has a number of allusions to sets and items which are largely unpopular/aren't seen at moderately high levels of play. Adding these extra points is additionally unhelpful. I will refrain from harping on these and will leave the tone and questionable choices within this post alone for the rest of my own post.

Trapping needs to be suspected in some way shape or form. I have seen a tendency of players to look the other way when it comes to diglett and it really shows.

Trapping has an extremely large impact on the meta right now for a couple reasons. There is absolutely zero reason to not use a trapper on team right now, they have no opportunity cost at the moment. They are splashable because they can fit on a variety of teams: balance, bulky offense, hyper offense, I've even seen them on web teams. At worst, they will take out at least one Pokemon guaranteed (if not more) and chances are you as a player have very little agency to prevent it.

Right now the most prominent use of trapping is getting rid of defensive pokemon for a spam core to clean up (fighting spam, flying spam, water spam, etc.) and also eliminating a few offensive mons like Ponyta and Abra. Some other teams employ a sweeper like NP Spritzee or Carv with a trapper (sometimes even two) to eliminate the potential block to a sweep and go to town unhindered. These spam type coverage teams are simply too effective with trapping at their disposal. We already have few to no viable flying checks in the tier, and trapping removes all of them bar honedge, which doesn't really count because it can't deal with Vullaby (or rufflet for that matter if it has shadow claw). There are only fraction of pokemon that aren't grounded / trappable in this meta, so trappers have a wide variety of pokemon they can target for their team.
I'm a little hesitant to try and categorize the premise of your argument. There are a lot of things I could nitpit here, but I will instead summarize what you've presented literally as: 1) there is no downside to using a trapper. 2) trappers support a majority of the tier. 3) there are not enough ways to stop trapping; this concludes that trappers are broken. This is my understanding of your stance as written. I will extend point 3 to generally reflect on counterplay and outs rather than being about directly not getting trapped as this is a more approachable point.

Now to take your post section by section.

You start by saying trappers are able to be used on basically all archetypes of teams; this is fine. You continue to say that they enable Pokemon to sweep. I would argue that this is fine as well. It is worth comparing what you have said above to a pretty solid rhetorical counterpoint in Mienfoo. Mienfoo can be added to almost literally any team and improve it. Mienfoo can be used on all archetypes and is pretty likely to be overlooked, due to its omnipresence, as an important part of enabling type spam strategies. This is to say, that your introductory points do not touch on points that speak to trappers being demonstrably problematic unless Mienfoo is as well. Granted, there are shortcomings of this rhetorical device, but that is why it is only being applied to this pair of points rather than the rest of what you have to say.

In fact, diglett can basically run whatever moves it wants and still be viable, which is just bonkers to me. It has so many different sets and moves it can use to remain unpredictable and difficult to scout because its moveset and item is going to have. Eviolite diglett, sash diglett, life orb diglett, air balloon diglett, sludge bomb, final gambit, earth power diglett, memento diglett, giga drain trapinch, endure trapinch, etc. It is nigh impossible to determine the set just by looking at the player's team, and even if you might have an idea your guess that is wrong is costly. When trappers are using air balloon to beat each other, I think there is something wrong.
You are carrying forward assumptions that something is already broken and merely listing every set it has ever used. This is not an argument unless you could expand on why these are issues; don't make us need to assume what the offense is here. Air Balloon has more upsides that simply beating other trappers; granted that is the major point about it, it also avoids being countertrapped, matchups up well against Sticky Web teams, and also still has use against Onix. This aside, there is nothing wrong with Pokemon running different items. There is also nothing wrong with Pokemon having a lot of good moves to pick from. I would continue to say that even if there was, you haven't presented a variety of inherently overwhelming options. Diglett only has 4 slots like any other Pokemon and the options it can pick aren't particularly impressive when taken on balance. The most extraordinary thing about Diglett's variety is its item selection; in truth the moves it selects largely secondary for considering how you can combat Diglett in a match. The direct consequence of this is dealing with Diglett often ends up being fairly straightforward, especially when you are aware of the item.

Inevitably someone will bring up that trappers are frail, and I fail to see how that matters in the grand scheme of things. first of all, trappers are heavily team based, and eviolite diglett / trap can survive a surprising amount of attacks such as tri attack from porygon or a flash cannon from magnemite. Everyone knows about u-turn allowing trappers in, so I'm not going too much into that, but I also think people are downplaying the importance of teleport in aiding trappers. Teleport is, in many cases, much more effective at getting trappers in because it ignores their main weakness. Porygon and staryu (lesser extent mag) are excellent teleport users considering they draw in ferroseed, which then loses to most diglett 1v1 if it has giga drain and not bullet seed, knocked, etc. In the best case senario it survives with like 4 hp with final gambit. For many teams, ferroseed is all that is stopping a potential corphish, abra, np/cm spritzee from running wild. This is just one out of many examples.

It is true that trapping removes player choice and agency. On any given turn there is a selection of options a player can do and switching is one of them. However, I personally think that the threat of not being able to KO the pokemon in front of you without being trapped is a bigger problem. Speaking with other people on this topic, I was often told "do not be in the position to be trapped." I cannot stress how flawed this comment is because literally the objective of winning the match puts the player in the position of being trapped. In some cases, the right play is not to get the kill right away and get it through some other means, but what if that other way never presents itself? Also keep in mind this effect on the player is entirely passive, the trapper does not even have to be on the field for the player to think about this, and considering that a team often has more than one trappable pokemon on it, this doesn't happen just once per battle.
If you fail to see how the defensive qualities of a Pokemon which needs to come in to pick up its KO are relevant to examining its potency and level of viability in the metagame than this conversation is a nonstarter. You have already come to your conclusion at this point, and a reader has not been provided arguments enough to join you here. You have also inverted the premise of your argument to say those Pokemon support trappers and give them too many opportunities when you opened your post with the statement that trappers are broken because they can support type spam very well. While these premises are not mutually exclusive, how you substantiate these points creates a logical framework where trappers/Diglett: a) do not need to switch into anything, b) can be pivoted in on anything they'd like to trap with ease, c) can switch into some of what they would like to trap, d) trap pokemon such that what has pivoted Diglett in now wins the game for the other player.

To be frank, this is a much deeper conversation that anyone would care to read me type about and most users who have read this far intuitively understand much of what I would be communicating. The end of this is to state that the conclusions you are drawing from this are not something you can truly make from this alone. On its face, you're also ignoring the qualities of Pokemon with these pivot moves have in generally negating their counters as a quality of pivot moves. Further, there is a consideration of if this is outplaying your opponent, and with the usage of Teleport I would gladly argue that it may be. The above framing of trappers in the metagame is a very static understanding of playing the game. I do not mean to demean you, but when you also opt to simplify my advice down to "don't get trapped with your pokemon!" you have a key misunderstanding of this tier and the dynamics that very good teams often engage with. Why is the idea that your (insert trappable Pokemon here) cannot revenge kill something freely fundamentally flawed? In what way does this fail to align with the nature of planning ahead in singles? You have created an unhelpful heuristic about how to win in Pokemon (e.g. kill their 6 before they kill your 6) which ignores the many skill gaps that LC has. You are making your decisions with a flawed perspective if to you "the literal objective of winning the match" is to simply have concluded the match. You have framed the game around what you cannot do. In every strategy game that exists, the player ought to be chiefly concerned with what you can do. Winning in Pokemon is trying to optimize your choices; the choices which you cannot make are part of the game as much as the choice you can make.

Sometimes, you cannot avoid getting trapped. That sucks. It feels bad. But you can do a variety of things to make the best of it and win the game despite losing your Abra/Ponyta/Mareanie/etc to a Diglett. You can make choices with the known variables of the trappers on the other team and your best outs to win. You can position yourself to make progress when the trapper picks up a KO; you can set up on the trapper with a limited number of sweepers; you can revenge kill them; you can take the turn to send in something like Scarf Mienfoo to pick a KO with High Jump Kick. This is the basics of what I was telling you of. The objective of winning the match is often managing the shifting variables of limiting your opponent's progress while advancing your causes. The effect on the player does not need to be passive; otherwise, it genuinely would be incredibly hard to overcome Diglett teams after they secure a KO.

One last note on this is that you have a comment on team structure; that is another point which I think is weak. If you are finding that most of your Pokemon are getting isolated and trapped, the problem is not necessarily the trapper but rather the choices you have made with your team. Yes, teams can and often do run trappable Pokemon together, but they should not do this without a way to punish being trapped. Not all team combinations have the right to be viable either, and as a player which is concerned about the state of the metagame you have the obligation to be building teams to address the meta trends and the tried-and-true strategies.

Trappers obviously have warped the meta. Electric types are unreliable due to them, which should surprise no one. This obviously has consequences the next time you play a ladder match, count the amount of electric weaknesses on the teams - Vullaby, Staryu, Mearienie, Rufflet, Wingull, Dewpider, Shellos, etc. part of the reason why flying spam is so effective because the trappers have made one of the weaknesses of the team non existent. Teleport mag could be awesome in this meta. Soak Chinchou can be a great lure for foongus and ferroseed. We never get to see them though because trapping invalidates them, let alone posion types like Croagunk, Cufant, Salandit, and Stunky which can have obvious niches that have gone unnoticed due to trapping.
This section largely is against Smogon tiering policy. I will engage with it to the extent that I feel is relevant for highlighting how Diglett is not to blame for much of this. Most of the electric types in the tier would be bad anyway; Chinchou has been the best it has been in years only two months ago and it negates these electric types. Similarly, Magnemite has continued to be fairly good throughout the years despite trappers. Your wistful speculation about what could be does not belong in a conversation about suspect tests. I can again refer to the colored history of Magnemite (sans useful teleport) and Chinchou throughout ORAS and even SM LC to underline why your concern for the viability of these trapping weak Pokemon is not a valid concern for tiering. Cufant, Croagunk, and the like may have "obvious niches" but that is not a concern for anyone engaging with tiering policy. We should reflect that this particular line of thought is entirely speculative, is flawed, and can only be done by flawed humans. This is why questions about how Pokemon which are dominated by other Pokemon are disregarded at the policy level.

I've also heard the argument that not one threat in lc auto wins with its checks removed. My response to this is, in part, that many of the pokemon we banned were Pokemon that fulfilled that criteria. Some examples are floon and electric types, qt and ponyta, gastly and pawniard, etc. I am not saying these pokemon would be balanced by removing trapping (as we really have no way of knowing that), but undoubtedly trapping has in some way influenced these pokemon in getting the axe (particularly qt).

We have already seen just how versatile trappers are (esp. dig), and some of their support capabilities (sunny day dig, which I was surprised was not talked about that much with the sun suspect). I think when players start to use air balloon trappers and a battle of which trapper wins and comes out on top that might cross the line. This is not even mentioning the fact that shed shell is a troll item in lc.

Maybe we can actually give this some serious thought instead of just saying "get gud don't be put in the position to be trapped"
In this last section, I'm not sure what you are hoping to communicate with us. With regards to Air Balloon Diglett, this is an arbitrary line in the sand. With regards to trappers removing checks and trying to point to Pokemon which are currently banned for having too few checks or winning too easily, Diglett is certainly part of the consideration with these suspects. The nature of statements that Diglett makes these Pokemon broken, has pushed several Pokemon over the edge, or something of this fashion, are hard to substantiate and are part of a much broader and deeper conversation. I will refrain from itemizing the LC ban list and engaging with this point any further as my above words should round out a better framework for why Diglett is not broken or worthy of a suspect.
 
You write with a lot of contempt. Some of this was indirectly targeting me as the guy who told you to get better at positioning. This contempt is not helpful. Similarly, the post has a number of allusions to sets and items which are largely unpopular/aren't seen at moderately high levels of play. Adding these extra points is additionally unhelpful. I will refrain from harping on these and will leave the tone and questionable choices within this post alone for the rest of my own post.
Correct me if I am wrong, but air balloon diglett is certainly seen in high ladder matches and tournaments, and there is direct discussion about it on the fourms and in the viability rankings. Memento Sunny Day diglett was one of the best sun setters in the tier as far as I know, so saying memento diglett is unpopular or absent at high levels of play is strange. Sure, Sludge Bomb diglett may not be the most common thing in the world right now, but if your team has a cottonee problem (particularly worthwhile because it would otherwise counter diglett quite well) it certainly can be worth it. Earth power diglett and giga drain trap and pretty standard as far as I know because they can take out onix more reliably, a huge target of trapping. endure berry juice trap I have also seen on mid ladder as it allows it to potentially trap multiple targets and aids in its overall reliability. Again, what I am saying is that diglett can be easily customize to beat a threat your team is weak to and it is extremely difficult to scout this safely.



You start by saying trappers are able to be used on basically all archetypes of teams; this is fine. You continue to say that they enable Pokemon to sweep. I would argue that this is fine as well. It is worth comparing what you have said above to a pretty solid rhetorical counterpoint in Mienfoo. Mienfoo can be added to almost literally any team and improve it. Mienfoo can be used on all archetypes and is pretty likely to be overlooked, due to its omnipresence, as an important part of enabling type spam strategies. This is to say, that your introductory points do not touch on points that speak to trappers being demonstrably problematic unless Mienfoo is as well. Granted, there are shortcomings of this rhetorical device, but that is why it is only being applied to this pair of points rather than the rest of what you have to say.
Mienfoo does not guarantee a kill every single game, mienfoo does not have a arena trap ability. Yes, clearly mienfoo is a good pokemon that can be put on a variety of different teams. The problem is that a trapper, who gives you a very powerful tool as your disposal (not just in battle but in teambuilding) is nearly as versatile and splashable as one of the best pokemon in the tier. Should there not be a trade off for this? I have not really brought up wynaut in my post, but wynaut is a trapping pokemon with little merit outside of that, which is an opportunity cost. Trap and Dig have no where near the amount of trade off here and have similar utility and support capabilities to our best pokemon in the tier.


You are carrying forward assumptions that something is already broken and merely listing every set it has ever used. This is not an argument unless you could expand on why these are issues; don't make us need to assume what the offense is here. Air Balloon has more upsides that simply beating other trappers; granted that is the major point about it, it also avoids being countertrapped, matchups up well against Sticky Web teams, and also still has use against Onix. This aside, there is nothing wrong with Pokemon running different items. There is also nothing wrong with Pokemon having a lot of good moves to pick from. I would continue to say that even if there was, you haven't presented a variety of inherently overwhelming options. Diglett only has 4 slots like any other Pokemon and the options it can pick aren't particularly impressive when taken on balance. The most extraordinary thing about Diglett's variety is its item selection; in truth the moves it selects largely secondary for considering how you can combat Diglett in a match. The direct consequence of this is dealing with Diglett often ends up being fairly straightforward, especially when you are aware of the item.
The problem here is that trapper move and item choices allow a degree of versatility that is difficult to scout and provides it with immense support capabilites tailored to a team. I have already mentioned some of the move choices above, and I think you are downplaying the importance of this. Anyone who has seen my posts before in past gens know I love creative sets and cool item / move choices and are innovative. As you have said, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that. The problem in this case however is that it is very difficult to scout diglett sets because they can be very team dependent with little to no functionality costs. For example, life orb diglett cannot easily take out Ponyta-G if your team has trouble against it, but you don't have to worry about that because eviolite allows diglett to trap and kill it with little issue. Another example is that your standard eviolite trapinch cannot switch in and trap scarf vulpix under usual circumstances. However, if you take those def EVs and put them over into special defense and use berry juice, trapinch can now switch into a Weatherball or Fire Blast in the sun and take it out the next turn. In terms of moves, final gambit is pretty significant: staryu, who is generally fairly safe against diglett between rapid spin, recover, and water STAB. can fall to final gambit diglett. It also opens up Ferroseed to be trapped and killed as 84HP Ferroseed only has 22 HP total, so diglett either leaves it with 2HP or just needs minimal chip from a u-turn, knock, entry hazards, etc. Keep in mind this still retains trapping coverage on onix, whose weak armour or head smash sets tend to have 21 HP at most and life orb abra sets.

These are pokemon that you typically assume would be safe from trapping (esp. staryu) succumb to it. This complicates your defense of trying to avoid being put in the position of being trapped because in order to do this you must be aware what on your team is able to be trapped and when. For example, I would think most players play their staryu without as much caution if diglett is on the other team because they know it can usually beat it 1v1 if it is healthy. But Final Gambit turns that on its head and it can be very costly if that opposing team happens to be hazard stack. And again, it is extremely difficult to scout these sets because you cannot see how much HP diglett has, cannot gauge eviolite or berry juice trap until it switches in or takes an attack, cannot tell life orb diglett until it attacks, etc.

I suppose I did not elaborate too much on why air balloon is a problem. As you have said, Diglett carrying air balloon is a direct result of people employing trapinch to get rid of diglett. This naturally causes some games to be trapper vs. trapper and the player whose trapper comes out on top is at a heavy advantage. Sure, air balloon makes switching into onix easier, but its not like diglett has any difficulty in trapping onix to begin with, as eviolite or sash earth power sets can deal with onix fairly well in addition to the final gambit set. Again, I can see avoiding Sticky Web being a benefit, but you can also see it as diglett avoiding potential counterplay to its trapping.



If you fail to see how the defensive qualities of a Pokemon which needs to come in to pick up its KO are relevant to examining its potency and level of viability in the metagame than this conversation is a nonstarter. You have already come to your conclusion at this point, and a reader has not been provided arguments enough to join you here. You have also inverted the premise of your argument to say those Pokemon support trappers and give them too many opportunities when you opened your post with the statement that trappers are broken because they can support type spam very well. While these premises are not mutually exclusive, how you substantiate these points creates a logical framework where trappers/Diglett: a) do not need to switch into anything, b) can be pivoted in on anything they'd like to trap with ease, c) can switch into some of what they would like to trap, d) trap pokemon such that what has pivoted Diglett in now wins the game for the other player.
By no means do trappers absolutely need to have pokemon with pivot moves to be successful. I was pointing out (which you did not seem to address in your post) is that they can overcome these weaknesses very easily and it is not as easy to exploit these weaknesses when are patched up. They do this through their item choice (eviolite, berry juice, sash, air balloon all in some way ease the ability to switch in to trap to some degree). U-turn and the newly reworked teleport also help immensely in the ability of trappers to do their job. I could maybe buy your argument if teleport or u-turn or flip turn were uncommonly used niche moves in the tier, but we both know that is simply not true; they are all over the place in LC and will always be used regardless of trappers being in the tier or not.

On its face, you're also ignoring the qualities of Pokemon with these pivot moves have in generally negating their counters as a quality of pivot moves. Further, there is a consideration of if this is outplaying your opponent, and with the usage of Teleport I would gladly argue that it may be.
Like I said, I have been around these forums for a while. If you're trying to convince me that pivoting moves can be considered "outplaying" the opponent and thus should not heavily influence a suspect or ban, I can easily point to gilgar being banned in gen 5 (mostly for acrobatics, but it was also the best support pokemon in the tier with sr and uturn) , TangMa teams in gen 6 (or really just yanma in general that meta was dumb lol) followed by misdreavus and flecthling cores (aided by uturn) which ultimately lead to missy being banned, and most recent our rufflet ban, which its access to u-turn certainly influenced its voters to ban it.


The above framing of trappers in the metagame is a very static understanding of playing the game. I do not mean to demean you, but when you also opt to simplify my advice down to "don't get trapped with your pokemon!" you have a key misunderstanding of this tier and the dynamics that very good teams often engage with. Why is the idea that your (insert trappable Pokemon here) cannot revenge kill something freely fundamentally flawed? In what way does this fail to align with the nature of planning ahead in singles? You have created an unhelpful heuristic about how to win in Pokemon (e.g. kill their 6 before they kill your 6) which ignores the many skill gaps that LC has. You are making your decisions with a flawed perspective if to you "the literal objective of winning the match" is to simply have concluded the match. You have framed the game around what you cannot do. In every strategy game that exists, the player ought to be chiefly concerned with what you can do. Winning in Pokemon is trying to optimize your choices; the choices which you cannot make are part of the game as much as the choice you can make.
Switching is what makes pokemon competitive. Removing the option to switch is removing what makes pokemon, well, pokemon. We don't play a game where our line up is set in stone and a series of 1 on 1 happen. Switching is a part of the game we play and part of the agency that we as players have to minimize the negative consequences of mistakes. Your argument here suggests that one of the ways to handle trapping is looking at a player's team, determine what on your team can be trapped and what is relatively safer, and plan accordingly. A have pointed out a problem with this in that you do not know what that trapping set is, and it can be very difficult to tell what is through preview alone. You may assume that your healthy staryu can be free from being trapped, but final gambit ensures that it is not.

Players should always be allowed to make the optimal play at any given time to advance the game, but trapping forces players to make sub-optimal plays that are sometimes not able to come back from. Or, in some cases, these goals are impossible or difficult to achieve, such as getting rid of the trapper first. Right from team preview, trappers put an absurd pressure on you to not misplay. I would argue that this pressure is mostly unnecessary, especially when such pressure does not come with a significant opportunity cost. On the other hand, the player employing the trapper has all the power, because they are allowed to minimize their mistake if they happen to come in on the wrong threat. Now, you can argue that the player is still in a disadvantageous state, but being trapped means the opponent's move is all the more telegraphed because you know they need to attack. In fact, having a trapper on a team gives a player too much leverage against the other for relatively little effort and cost. Do you want to live in a world of pokemon where you can say you lost a battle because "I misclicked my onix and lost it to a diglett or a trapinch and then rufflet ran through my team?" I don't.

Sometimes, you cannot avoid getting trapped. That sucks. It feels bad. But you can do a variety of things to make the best of it and win the game despite losing your Abra/Ponyta/Mareanie/etc to a Diglett. You can make choices with the known variables of the trappers on the other team and your best outs to win. You can position yourself to make progress when the trapper picks up a KO; you can set up on the trapper with a limited number of sweepers; you can revenge kill them; you can take the turn to send in something like Scarf Mienfoo to pick a KO with High Jump Kick. This is the basics of what I was telling you of. The objective of winning the match is often managing the shifting variables of limiting your opponent's progress while advancing your causes. The effect on the player does not need to be passive; otherwise, it genuinely would be incredibly hard to overcome Diglett teams after they secure a KO.
You can apply this logic to nearly everything that we have banned in the past. Sure, rufflet is broken and gets a kill everytime it comes in against my team. What can I do to capitalize on this? Well my scarf mienfoo can outspeed and pressure the team so I'll go with that. Life Orb Gastly 2HKOs basically everything in the tier, so I better not let it in for free on anything, so better be careful of my oddish, etc. In some cases, there might not be a feasible way to make progress or advance the game, or that way might involve your opponent's own misplay. You also gloss over just how many 50/50s trapping can force in those scenarios, most of the time the player with the trapper getting more reward out of that 50/50.

One last note on this is that you have a comment on team structure; that is another point which I think is weak. If you are finding that most of your Pokemon are getting isolated and trapped, the problem is not necessarily the trapper but rather the choices you have made with your team. Yes, teams can and often do run trappable Pokemon together, but they should not do this without a way to punish being trapped. Not all team combinations have the right to be viable either, and as a player which is concerned about the state of the metagame you have the obligation to be building teams to address the meta trends and the tried-and-true strategies.
Any potential reward you get from "punishing" trapping is overall not going to be as beneficial to you as the other player trapping your target because you cannot choose the other player's response, while the opponent with the trapper got to decide what Pokemon you were losing and when. Oh, and they are probably will do this with switching, which lets them minimize the risk or potential downside to trapping, which you were not allowed to do.

This section largely is against Smogon tiering policy. I will engage with it to the extent that I feel is relevant for highlighting how Diglett is not to blame for much of this. Most of the electric types in the tier would be bad anyway; Chinchou has been the best it has been in years only two months ago and it negates these electric types. Similarly, Magnemite has continued to be fairly good throughout the years despite trappers. Your wistful speculation about what could be does not belong in a conversation about suspect tests. I can again refer to the colored history of Magnemite (sans useful teleport) and Chinchou throughout ORAS and even SM LC to underline why your concern for the viability of these trapping weak Pokemon is not a valid concern for tiering. Cufant, Croagunk, and the like may have "obvious niches" but that is not a concern for anyone engaging with tiering policy. We should reflect that this particular line of thought is entirely speculative, is flawed, and can only be done by flawed humans. This is why questions about how Pokemon which are dominated by other Pokemon are disregarded at the policy level.
Your argument is fair to a certain degree, that we shouldn't necessarily care about all electric types, but I think to say Chinchou and magnemite are fine in viability is a bit of a stretch. You could use Mag to combat the special attackers in the tier, but that substitution isn't really viable because ferroseed is not as easily trapped as magnetite is. Chinchou cannot even use electric moves while a trapper is in the back, while even magnemite can use sturdy + teleport to get out of trapping in a dire pinch. [/QUOTE]

In this last section, I'm not sure what you are hoping to communicate with us. With regards to Air Balloon Diglett, this is an arbitrary line in the sand. With regards to trappers removing checks and trying to point to Pokemon which are currently banned for having too few checks or winning too easily, Diglett is certainly part of the consideration with these suspects. The nature of statements that Diglett makes these Pokemon broken, has pushed several Pokemon over the edge, or something of this fashion, are hard to substantiate and are part of a much broader and deeper conversation. I will refrain from itemizing the LC ban list and engaging with this point any further as my above words should round out a better framework for why Diglett is not broken or worthy of a suspect.
I really do not think that air balloon diglett is arbitrary line. It is indicative of a metagame where trapping is important to the degree that users feel it is necessary to combat other trappers and assume their use, implying trapping's prevalence and overall impact on battles. I certainly think that this is one reason why it should be looked at.
 

Fiend

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Shouting I'm not going to go line by line again. I can see that it did not work and truthfully it seems that you have not read and understood my initial response. Broadly, to correct the weird overview that you seemed to gather from my post, I did not say that Air Balloon Diglett was an edge set and I touched on it well enough to talk about why it is a good set to begin with. I did not touch the oddities like Endure Trapinch and Sludge Bomb Diglett instead, as I said I would not. I don't think we are playing the same tier if you assumed that Air Balloon Diglett was the target of the comment on 'unsets' and instead you're casually vouching for Sludge Bomb Diglett like this is still ORAS. You also seemed to have failed to grasp the middle section of my post as you responded with that switching is part of the game and you should be able to switch to be playing optimally. This is failing to consider that, because you are trapped you cannot switch and therefore this optimal play is impossible. Ergo, this play does not exist and cannot be optimal. This line of logic is trying not trying to play better but instead trying to affix blame onto another element. I also do not like how you twisted my ending sections to try to 'agree' with them for the purpose that Diglett should be suspected. You have also decided that smogon policy does not matter here. My general impression is that a nuanced conversation with you is going to be fruitless and that you are going to continue to contrive things into supporting your novel ideology.

You're talking about standard sets like they are impossible to consider. These are the common sets. Do not be mistaken; yes Trapinch often runs Superpower and Giga Drain; Diglett can run Earthquake, Sucker Punch, Beat Up, Final Gambit, Memento, and Earth Power without varying from what is recommended by C&C and what is being added to the analysis that is still in progress. I don't know what point you are trying to make here because it really should not be that Diglett is too unpredictable to be managed. It is a trapper that invariably makes it a reactive option. If it might trap you, and that is a bad thing for your game beyond the zero-sum understanding that trapping a pokemon is bad for you, then find an alternative path. Sometimes that doesn't exist if something about your game is off to a severe enough extent, but Diglett's set is never going to take the game out of your hands from the beginning. If it is, the issue is not Diglett.

I'm selecting the below part as this is both the most coherent part of your response and the most common refrain on why to ban trappers.
Switching is what makes pokemon competitive. Removing the option to switch is removing what makes pokemon, well, pokemon. We don't play a game where our line up is set in stone and a series of 1 on 1 happen. Switching is a part of the game we play and part of the agency that we as players have to minimize the negative consequences of mistakes. Your argument here suggests that one of the ways to handle trapping is looking at a player's team, determine what on your team can be trapped and what is relatively safer, and plan accordingly. A have pointed out a problem with this in that you do not know what that trapping set is, and it can be very difficult to tell what is through preview alone. You may assume that your healthy staryu can be free from being trapped, but final gambit ensures that it is not.
This entire bit is nonsense. How is switching the defining aspect of competitive Pokemon? Why is it not something more unique to Pokemon such as the varied teambuilder or the depth of available tools (e.g. Pokemon)? How is one of the most rudimentary parts of the game the crowning piece which makes the Singles formats competitive? Thinking like this is perplexing, and does not do anything other than allow you to justify to yourself your view on Diglett. As you write on, you highlight this idea that Pokemon is so much more than a rock-paper-scissors game with switching, yet the framing of switching sacred aspect of this game is at odds with this. Moreover, why are we even bothering to pick what makes Pokemon competitive? It is not helpful. It does not make us better policy makes or competitors. And even if it did, why would we single out a mechanic as too precious at the expense of another mechanic? You can't toss out these talking points so brazenly if you are going to supply such a paper-thin argument.

There is no part about switching which inherently makes this necessary for a competitive game, and the extension of this is that the temporary lack of switching does not prevent this game from being competitive. The bit about minimizing mistakes through switching, which if taken as valid, is arguably making this a less competitive experience towards the fact that you are not being punished for playing poorly. I know it probably feels right to you that if you cannot switch then the game is unfair, but it is a known mechanic that you have every ability to account for. This game is competitive because the vast majority of mechanics are not random and there is a large skill gap found with juggling all of the mechanics in battle well enough to score a win. A competitive experience is where the better play is able to prove their mightier skill, not through their ability to make mistakes. Yes, I am contending that the best players are able to plan ahead and execute coherent gameplans; these players will have a generally strong idea what Diglett will do and try to target and can target.

To be perfectly honest, I do not understand the points you are laboring to make above. The entire section relies on switching being something needed in this game. Yet to this end, you are happy to concede that there are Pokemon which can limit your ability to switch in and out that are not breaking the game. You cannot have both of these be true ideas unless are going to further argue that trappers are broken because they trap and also other things. (You fail to do this.) There are so many examples broadly in this game that serve as direct counterpoints to this favorite fallacious premise; let us point out ADV OU, DPP LC, Magnet Pull in every tier.

Players should always be allowed to make the optimal play at any given time to advance the game, but trapping forces players to make sub-optimal plays that are sometimes not able to come back from. Or, in some cases, these goals are impossible or difficult to achieve, such as getting rid of the trapper first. Right from team preview, trappers put an absurd pressure on you to not misplay. I would argue that this pressure is mostly unnecessary, especially when such pressure does not come with a significant opportunity cost. On the other hand, the player employing the trapper has all the power, because they are allowed to minimize their mistake if they happen to come in on the wrong threat. Now, you can argue that the player is still in a disadvantageous state, but being trapped means the opponent's move is all the more telegraphed because you know they need to attack.
I'm genuinely frustrated with how you have decided that the optimal play in a situation is going to be the play that you are not allowed to do because of the mechanics of the game. I must again stress to you that the mechanics of the game are what enable you to make intelligent choices and enables us to have a competitive game of Pokemon. You have instead decided that the optimal play is something else entirely; you have changed the meaning of this phrase for your purposes. You have incorrectly identified how to best play this situation out, and moreover, you feel that your identification is meaningfully correct as it stands. It is incredibly difficult to try and level with someone who does not abide by the most basic principles of thinking through plays.

This entire follow up about the precious nature of your ability to switch is incoherent to the point where it does not make sense.
Is this a competitive game? Why are you so concerned about your ability to misplay? Why is a play which extends your combativeness in a match suboptimal? Why is it suboptimal to play around the trapper? Is it not a demonstration of skill to utilize trappable Pokemon in the face of a trapper? How does having a trapper prevent you from punishing the misplays of someone using a trapper?

In fact, having a trapper on a team gives a player too much leverage against the other for relatively little effort and cost. Do you want to live in a world of pokemon where you can say you lost a battle because "I misclicked my onix and lost it to a diglett or a trapinch and then rufflet ran through my team?" I don't.
Why are you bothering to present rhetorical devices about making mistakes? The effort you are equating trappers to being incomparably greater than is functionally any amount of effort in which misclicking is common. You cannot be serious.
 

Berks

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Shouting

Back when Corphish was better in the meta, I would frequently set up my teams to weaken the Mareanie or Frillish early in the game and then allow Diglett to come in and KO something mid game to give Corphish a chance to either set up a Dragon/Swords Dance or blast something with Crabhammer. That is the kind of planning that Fiend is talking about: I know that most teams have a ground type and that frequently that ground type is Diglett, so I set up my team to get an advantage when those ground types (read: Diglett) came in to KO my weakened Ponyta or Croagunk or whatever. My optimal move in those scenarios was to let something get KOd to bring Corphish in on Diglett or Trapinch.

Build a team that takes advantage of Diglett if you don’t want it to beat you.
 
Fiend I think there just a difference in the way we view pokemon competition, which is entirely subjective. I will say, however, that there are basically two golden rules that we try to teach people when coming from casual cart play to competitive and those are:

1) If you want to use your favorite or the cool pokemon, don't expect to get very far.

2) People can and will switch mid battle to a more advantageous position.


Berks if you are the player with the Corphish and I am the player with the Mareanie, even if I can capitalize on the diglett in front of me, the player who got trapped is still at an innate disadvantage because:

1) the trapper has already done its job (assuming you kill it after it getting the kill)

2) the team with the trapper is able to switch, and is given the opporunity to minimize this play, which the marenie player was not able to do.

You are assuming that the opportunity you get in front of diglett is at least equal (or greater) than that of the trapper getting rid of the threat, and that simply isn't going to be the case most of time because teams are built so heavily around removing that threat so their payoff is likely going to be better than any non trapper you come across.

This is also ignoring the possibility of diglett having memento which can foil many opportunities to punish diglett and actually turn the tables on you.
:blobthinking:


Alright I'm going back into my lurking hole for another several years, peace.
 
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Nobody seems to talk about how good ponyta is in the current meta

my pony set looks a little like this

ponyta (Flame Body)
power herb
1.flare blitz
2.high horsepower
3.solar blade
4.quick attack
232Atk/196Spe/76Def
Adamant nature

It is a hard counter to foongus, ferroseed, bronzor (no matter what ability), onix, any water, rock, or ground types, without sturdy or sash, poison types
It is a hard counter to foongus, ferroseed, bronzor (no matter what ability), onix, any water, rock, or ground types, without sturdy or sash, poison types

also a softer check to mareanie, water, rock, ground types even with sash or sturdy thanks to quick attack. Also a generally good offensive Pokemon which deals a ton of damage anyways. it 2HKOs most resisted attacks so even is they swap in a strong type, your free hit plus superior speed often guarantees a kill. It does have a fairly strong counter in aqua jet, but most teams don’t have that. Pony is one of the most versatile offensive threats in the meta

I do think ponyta is better on a team than other ‘broken’ pokemon and is stronger than a lot of other Pokemon, but I wouldn’t even come close to banning it, it’s actually a really anti meta Pokemon, and we need more of those
 
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Corporal Levi

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Hi all - we're currently discussing making some quick changes to BW and DPP LC before LCWC hits, so I've set up informal BW and DPP LC councils. In both cases, everyone can chat in #general, and everyone can view #council-discussion but only council members can chat. Feel free to bring up topics that you feel warrant discussion or add onto anything that was mentioned in the council discussion. I plan to finalize what exactly the votes will be on and set them up in 1-2 weeks.


BW - https://discord.gg/fmkMWpV
At the moment we're discussing banning Sand Veil/Swagger, and there have also been talks of reverting to a previous BW metagame.

Since the current BW metagame didn't exist until earlier this year, I don't consider there to be anyone who is especially qualified to talk about the metagame. Because of this, I'm setting the bar pretty low in terms of who gets to vote, which means a big council - playing in this iteration of BW for LCPL or significantly helping your team prep for it is enough. However, I don't have access to everyone's team channels, so I don't know everyone who helped with BW prep. If you helped with BW prep for LCPL and aren't currently on the council but are interested in voting, please let me know. If you weren't able to participate in LCPL but believe you are qualified for other reasons, feel free to message me.


DPP - https://discord.gg/QWaqtRQ
The only thing on the plate right now is sleep - we're discussing whether to extend the Hypnosis ban to sleep as a whole.

DPP is a lot more developed than BW, and its set of active/successful players is pretty well established from what I know, so I'm not looking to create a gigantic council in the same way. I'm also grandfathering in a couple of other users who were already on the last informal iteration of the council. If there's anyone who looked great for DPP LC in LPL or another tour that I missed, though, please don't be afraid to shoot me a message - the more qualified voices, the better! Also idiotfrommars doomsday doink I couldn't get in touch with you guys on discord, but if you're interested in participating then just let me know.


For the time being, I don't plan to touch XY since it's pretty well-developed and I haven't seen too many complaints (a few here and there of goth), but if enough people feel that there are problematic elements then I can look into setting up an XY council as well.

In the same vein, I can also set up an SM council to discuss webs and/or Vullaby if people feel these are bad enough, but to my knowledge most of us are already pretty happy with where SM is at right now. We would have to look into how to set up the council less informally than the other old gens since the vast majority of the playerbase was already around during SM and may even have been on its official council.

If you have any other questions, whether on these councils or on LC old gens as a whole, please don't hesitate to message coco or myself on discord.
 

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