Announcement np: SS CAP Round 2: Nerfing Process - Shooting Star [Astrolotl Nerfed]

[Mx]

After the recent survey we conducted about the state of the SS metagame, the CAP metagame council (quziel, snake_rattler, and I) has decided it's time to take action and we'll be targeting Astrolotl first.

Since Astrolotl released less than 2 months ago, it has risen to the top of the metagame as a versatile Pokemon that can easily cripple most of its checks to allow the rest of its team to overwhelm the opponent with ease and it's very easy to fit into any team. Thanks to its good typing, serviceable bulk, and an amazing ability in Regenerator, Astrolotl usually finds many opportunities to switch in though the game. Once Astrolotl is in, the combination of Knock Off, Fire Lash, and Toxic means that it's incredibly hard to find a switch in that won't permanently crippled by it. Walls like Tomohawk and Hippowdon can win 1v1, but getting badly poisoned greatly hinders their ability to answer to powerful threats like Urshifu and Cinderace. Slowbro and Slowking don't care too much about Toxic, but that combined with Knock Off and Spikes will quickly wear them down. Even against Toxapex, a harder counter, Astrolotl can still use Spikes to continue wearing down the opposing team, and a set with Fire Spin, Fire Lash, and Explosion can even be used as a lure to remove Toxapex.

Regenerator in particular makes Astrolotl usually very safe to play. Even if you stay into a direct attack that would in theory beat you 1v1, like Tomohawk's Hurricane or Mandibuzz's Foul Play, you can simply tank it for that turn to cripple them with Toxic and next turn regain the health lost by just switching out. It also makes makes Astrolotl very safe to pivot to work around attackers like Jumbao, as it can take its Grass-type moves with ease, and if it predicts wrongly and switches into a Moonblast, it can still regain health for later.

Astrolotl's massive support movepool also means that it can be used to fill any hole a team might have, as apart from the more common Knock Off, Toxic, and Spikes, other options like Defog, Heal Bell, Wish, Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Explosion can be used if a team demands for them. This combined with all the previous factors means that there is little to no opportunity cost in running an Astrolotl in any given team, as it is able to make progress in one way or another against virtually opponent while providing whatever role a team might need.

Checks and counters

Counters:

Toxapex: Thanks to its typing, ability, and massive bulk, Toxapex is probably the closest thing to a full counter, but Astrolotl can still comfortably set up Spikes against it, and more niche sets with Taunt or Fire Spin might even beat it 1v1.

Slowbro/Slowking: Both of are good pivots that can switch into Astrolotl's moves, as even Knock Off will usually fail to beat them. Despite that, they pose no immediate threat, giving Astro time to click Spikes, Knock Off, or Toxic.

Hippowdon: Its massive physical bulk means that it can avoid taking much damage from Astrolotl's attacks, but Toxic + Spikes will usually wear it down to the point were Astrolotl's teammates can easily overwhelm it.

Checks:

Tomohawk: Tomohawk: With good physical bulk and intimidate Tomohawk makes a serviceable check to Astrolotl, 2HKOing with Hurricane. However, Astrolotl can afford to stay in and Toxic it, meaning that Tomohawk will often get worn down over the course of a game, and is easily pressured by common teammates once poisoned.

Hydreigon: This Pokemon resist Astrolotl's most common moves and can easily OHKO with Draco Meteor. However, despite having Roost, it's easy to wear down and needs to be wary of rare Dragon Claw variants.

Kommo-o: Similarly to Hydreigon, Kommo-o can take advantage of the fact that Astrolotl usually doesn't run any Dragon-type STAB move; however, Kommo-o doesn't have any recovery moves, which means that it will be worn down by Toxic and Spikes pretty quickly and can be taken by surprise by the rare Dragon Claw.

Rock-types: Terrakion, Rhyperior, Crucibelle are all options that can resist Astrolotl's most common moves, but the first two are worn down quickly by Toxic, while the latter hates losing its item

Heal Bell: Using Clerics is a very good way to improve a team's resilience against Toxic Astrolotl; however, Astrolotl itself is one of the most splashable users of Heal Bell, which only serves to further centralize the metagame around it

1. The CAP Metagame Council identifies a broken/unhealthy threat. Input from the metagame discussion thread, Discord, high-level tournament replays, etc. are ways the community can voice their concerns to the CAP Metagame council.

2. The CAP Metagame Council begins a thread. The OP, written by the CAP Metagame Council, summarizes why the Pokemon is broken. Metagame shifts, game mechanics changing, or OU bans can be potential points. The CAP Metagame council will also include a checks and counters list. Hard-counters to soft-checks, hazard damage, relative ability to switch-in, etc. should be considered. Keep in mind that with the broken Pokemon in the metagame, we can continue to understand why it is broken.

3. In the thread, the community discusses the simplest solution(s) to making the CAP not broken. Here, we can well-define a new list of checks and counters. Some solutions may be changing its ability to one that's similar but not as good, reducing its speed tier, removing some of its bulk or attack, or removing a certain move or two from its movepool. The community will play a huge role in identifying what solutions are available, but CAP Metagame Council will have the final say on what nerf is implemented. Keep in mind that the nerf(s) that is(are) implemented MUST preserve the identity of the CAP (i.e. Necturna uses Sketch, Pajantom uses its powerful trapping move, etc.).

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/!\Rules for posting in this thread/!\

Do not post one liners, nor uninformed posts;

Do not hold discussion on other potential nerfing processes;

Do not hold discussion on the nerfing process;

You are required to make respectful posts.

If you fail to follow these rules, your post will be deleted and you will be infracted.

Please take in mind that we're aiming to finish this nerfing process in 7 days, so post accordingly.

 

[quziel]

As we saw in the survey, and well, honestly my experience, Toxic is probably the element that restricts counterplay to Astrolotl the most. Not only do you have the ability to punish bulkier threats with Spikes, not only do you have the ability to punish them with Knock Off, and not only do you have the ability to wear through checks with repeated Fire Lashes, but you can put a load of what should be answers on a timer with Toxic.

This is especially notable because well, hypothetically if you're facing a Tomohawk or Mandibuzz, the cost of staying in and clicking Toxic itself is virtually null; most Tomohawks are going to be doing about 55% to you with Hurricane (if they hit), which is 20% after you regen, meaning that you basically came out of that interaction ahead (aka 2 turns of Toxic is good damage), and any teammates you have are going to have a way easier job; eg Urshifu can basically afford to stay in and spam Wicked Blow because Tomo can't really spam Roost.

I think there's valid concern about some of the super-niche options; Fire Spin is one I know has been mentioned as enabling some really cheesy strats; aka trap a Pex and use Taunt to basically KO it. I could see action being taken here as well.

 

[MrDollSteak]

Going to echo Quziel here to say that Toxic is what strikes me as the most annoying element of Astrolotl. The fact that Toxic gets around its supposed checks and counters is very problematic, especially for Tomohawk and Hippowdon. I think that realistically Toxic is all that needs to go, but I won't be opposed to Knock Off too. As I think it is perhaps its next most uninteractive move.

 

[Zephyri]

I agree with both quziel and MrDollSteak... Toxic is the main problem. Toxic allows Astro to hurt and cripple its counters (tomohawk, mandibuzz) , and makes it so astro has an answer to almost anything. I do worry about removing anything else though... especially things like Knock Off or Spikes. Knock Off specifically is Astro's main utility and one of the ways it "supports its team"... it's a very pro-concept move. Along with that, it gives Astro the ability to hit common pokemon like the Slowtwins without getting completely walled by them.

Although I agree that Fire Spin tech shouldn't really exist, I don't think it's nearly common or useful enough for us to have to remove it. If the move comes to a vote though, I would vote to remove Fire Spin.

 

[Rabia]

Astrolotl's issues boil down to it being extremely difficult to actually punish. The combination of good bulk, Heavy-Duty Boots, and Regenerator makes forcing progress against it far too difficult, and its movepool exacerbates this issue further (Knock Off + Toxic is known OP). While removing Toxic adds more room for safe play against Astrolotl, I still don't think it makes the 'mon any easier to actually make progress against. It's still going to do the same dumb thing of get Regenerator health and spam Knock Off + Spikes with Fire Lash helping slowly get by stuff like Tomohawk.

I think the ideal route is probably Toxic removal (can argue the precedent exists because Generation 8 tells us not everything that isn't a Steel-type needs access to the move) with a bulk nerf of some kind. At the very least lowering bulk aims to limit the freedom Astrolotl has to pivot around for free recovery virtue of Boots + Regen.

 

[spoo]

Long post incoming, this first paragraph is more or less just a fleshed out answer of my survey response but I fully agree that Toxic is the primary reason that Astrolotl is causing problems right now. Quziel explained really well why it's basically futile trying to punish an Astro when it clicks Toxic so I won't bother reiterating that point but it's one that I wholly agree with. Others have also brought up that Toxic allows Astro to effectively bypass its own "counters" over the course of a game. Getting a status + Knock Off on any Pokemon designed to wall it (bar the toxic-immune Toxapex) is basically a guarantee that, at some point in the mid-late game, Astro will be able to overwhelm that Pokemon or enable one of its teammates to do the same. This last point is huge in my opinion- Astro is such an incredible enabler for breakers and I think it's honestly a huge reason why Pokemon such as Urshifu and Cinderace are performing as well as they are.

I don't think anyone will argue against Toxic being removed but I'd also like to say that I disagree with (almost) all other proposals for additional nerfs. Aside from Toxic, the two things I've seen being discussed the most as problems are Astro's bulk and its access to a varied arsenal full of strong and often unpredictable sets. I'll get back to the first point, but Explosion, Trick, and Fire Spin are the moves I've seen discussed the most, although there may very well be more that people also believe to be issues. However, I don't see these moves as worth acting against because they almost always require immense team support and/or a large sacrifice to pull off effectively. Sets that run Explosion are, at the very best, trading a kill with the opponent, and Trick sets are forced to forgo Heavy Duty Boots, which are one of (if not the) biggest reason why Astro has such incredible longevity. Similar niche lure sets are also integral to this game and in my opinion make Pokemon that much more interesting to play and watch. In WCoP, sets such as Sand Tomb Scizor and Block + Spite Toxapex/Aegislash have seen usage with varying degrees of success and I think that sets like these are not the defining issue with Astrolotl and only make it a more interesting and complex creation.

On the topic of Astro's bulk and overall longevity, I think that there is genuinely a discussion to be had about how to tone this down because I believe it's somewhat problematic as well, but it's difficult for me to fully get behind a stat nerf to Astro. CAPs are carefully engineered to be able to live certain calculations, have a specific BSR, check certain Pokemon very comfortably and check others with a degree of risk involved, and changing these stats is a process which is either intelligent yet time consuming or efficient but ultimately arbitrary. The only exception to this is the Speed stat. This is a very interesting stat in the case of Astrolotl as Astro rarely needs to run 252+ Speed, allowing it to divest from this stat and place more emphasis on its bulk, almost always the special side. This softens up Hurricanes from Tomo and Scalds from the various bulky waters that are supposed to be counters, meaning it's much harder to make progress against Astro and punish it when it tries to click Toxic or set up Spikes while also notably allowing it to check sweepers like Volcarona more effectively. A spread like 252 Atk / 104 SpD / 152+ Spe still outspeeds Pajantom with a significant boost to its Special Defense. You could go even further with 252 Atk / 224 SpD / 32+ Spe, now outspeeding everything up to Rotom-H with almost full SpD investment. Astro's high natural speed tier is a large factor in its longevity, and if we do opt for a stat nerf, I propose lowering its speed stat so that it can't afford to dump EVs in bulk for little to no cost. I believe a speed of 111 would be a safe and effective way to go, however I think 109 and 102 are also potential options. To be clear, a removal of Toxic is the only thing I'm explicitly arguing for here, however if we do choose to target Astro's bulk I think that this is our best option.

 

[Rabia]

I agree with the overall sentiment of niche sets being possible being good for the game. I think it's a bit silly to try and nerf around something just for the sake of trying to make counterplay more linear/obvious. Removing versatility seems reasonable if it's based on the premise of "there are several highly viable sets that make finding reasonable counterplay beyond tasking," but this case seems to be more revolving around "hey, it could maybe perhaps do this, so let's prevent that." This line of thinking isn't very conducive in my eyes because it's mostly based on theory crafting and pigeon holing Astrolotl into running the same general set the entire time.

 

[Snorlax in the way]

I think there are three main points to address if one were to consider seriously in any fashion an attempt to nerf CAP 27. These three categories are three "sets" that I lump together for the purpose of drawing attention to them for the community. Trick Taunt, Screens, Spikes or Explosion. I put them in deliberate order.

Trick Taunt: This choice scarf set to me seems to be the main problem, and for the purpose of demonstration I appreciate the original post putting the checks and counter list. The Trick Taunt set basically bullies anything that could possibly wish to check CAP 27 in any meaningful way, and neutralizes all three listed counters. In truth, the trick taunt set frees up many matchups, and forces without question the use of a faster scarf user. I think it is in poor faith to assume that a fatter team will both not be tricked in an effort to keep the scarf on CAP 27, and also be bulky enough to wall the scarf set. Of course, the viability of this set does rely on how well one believes the community is able to play in practice, but on paper, assuming high caliber play, its fairly "free."

Screens: Screens may be a personal gripe of mine, but I feel the need to list it to allow others who feel the same to at least see their opinions mentioned. I believe the screens set to be fairly free to pilot due to the nature of resisting most move types and the main two moves it has to deal with on the screens set being earth power and earthquake. Its speed allows for screens to be fairly free to use. The issue with nerfing this is the fact that the only way to deal with it is to remove the moves itself, as stats arent changed. I do not think my singular post on the nature of resistances and speed could move a community to remove screens, but if people wish to further discuss this, it is something I believe should be looked at.

Spikes or Explosion: These two to me seem to be unneeded add-ons that force obnoxious matchups and that I would like to see at least addressed in some form. The spikes set, as briefly noted in the original post's checks and counters, spikes for free on everything that would be able to briefly deal with fire lash spam + a 4th move outside of the general non-attacking moves. Free hazards is not something I generally condone, but would like to see what others think on this topic. Explosion on the other hand bothers me because of how it disrupts the matchup versus more offensive teams. Scarf explosion to me seems equivalent to the older azelf leads of past gens, that are used alongside hazards and a nice speed tier to freely deal with more offensive teams, but don't really bother largely defensive ones. The only important difference here is CAP 27 freely deals with the majority of bulkier pokemon, while explosion also gives it this same heightened advantage over offensive archetypes. Briefly, in closing, I will state I have no strong opinion on toxic as proposed above. Most pokemon learn toxic naturally; however, CAP 26 also had toxic removed due to a combination of imbalanced stats, abilities, and typing. If CAP sees the need to do this again, it should remove toxic, but should seriously address its creation process, in my opinion.

 

[Pipotchi]

Astro is a problem because you cant scout for it. In particular, Trick and Fire Spin are basically impossible to scout for and those IMO should be removed. I strongly believe if you just remove Toxic, this mon will still be uncompetitive. Yes its its best single "coverage" option, but Trick Astros have proven to be just as problematic against all its checks (Tomo, Hippo, Mandi etc), and scouting around Fire Lash is still a gruelling task to try and discover one of these sets. While Trick doesnt necessarily get all the benefits of HDB, it can still take HDB off many checks like Slowtwins and Mandi over the course of a match. Trick also fits easily as a 4th moveslot and doesnt need a set built around it at all, still fully capable to run bulky sets or fast sets.
Ive only countered a few Fire Spin Astros (since there just arent a lot of matches going on, and not many people use it) but every time it has been able to do a number on my switchins. If youre not running Toxapex as the check, it has a way of stallbreaking basically everything outside of Rapid Spin Tomo 1v1 without the need for exploding. This one will be hard to push I guess, but the pressure of Fire Lash will usually force an immediate switch into a counter that makes clicking Fire Spin a lot more effective. Plus its not Whirlpool Azu, you can create a generically good set with Fire Spin tacked on at the end, once again being a hard-to-scout move that doesnt need to be pulled out right away against its targets.

edit: I should prob mention why i haven't targeted fire lash here- its simply because i dont know where this mon would land after losing such an integral part of its kit. i definitely think its its best move. im not obsessed with preserving fire lash, and without it i guess a few extra walls would open up as checks. losing access to your main stab is one of the most drastic nerfs that a pokemon can get, and does astro need that to become balanced? im not sure

 

[quziel]

Have had more thoughts and convos; Fire lash is very silly, and is a lot as to why this mon is so difficult to play around a ton of the time, I think its enabling a ton of the sillier sets, and may be the root of the issue behind toxic. Removing it would remove a lot of the need to play so damn carefully around this mon.

but

Toxic, Trick, and Fire Spin are also equally valid reasons as to why this mon has to be played so carefully around. I think getting rid of at least 2 of these would have about the same effect on opening up playing space around lotl. Getting rid of all 3 would be ideal if we want to preserve Fire Lash. As is Fire Lash means you can't really scout it super safely, and Trick, Toxic, and Fire Spin benefit heavily from that fact.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

In general, I really don't like nerfing or banning Pokemon unless absolutely necessary. Nerfs hurt and can take away some of the fun and enjoyment of a game or a specific Pokemon. Instead of nerfs, a focus should be on buffing. But in CAP, there are only so many elements that can be controlled, and nerfs and bans are the primary way we can manipulate the metagame. In the case of Astro, I love the concept and it was executed really well, but its problematic and unhealthy for the format so we have to nerf it in some form. But its because of this general mentality I have, the nerfs Im looking for are on the conservative side of things.

Edit: Been discussing the idea of what is better on the CAP Discord. What is better a broken but more fun meta or a balanced but boring meta? The general opinion of Smogon is that balanced but boring is the way to go but its some food for thought. The stances and ideas posted in that Discord chat gave me a lot to think about.

Tangent aside, Astro is really annoying to deal with. With its decent bulk and def typing backed by Regen+HDB, its plays a really strong and irritating hit and run game. Its checks and counters can be toxic or have items removed, which nearly all of Astro's checks and counters don't want. Or it spam spikes or fire lash which supports team with passive dmg or def drops other physical attackers can capitalize on.

Nerfs I dont want:
Reduce bulk- Astros bulk is not great but not terrible. Its ability to stick around for a long time is due to HDB and Regen and not its bulk. Nerfing bulk would make Astro less able to take hits, but doesn't fundamentally address my main issue which is the difficulty of punishing Astro in the first place. A reduction in bulk means if you manage to punish Astro via direct dmg, the payoff is more worthwhile. Also, Astro has a harder time switching in which limits its ability to support its team.

Remove Fire Lash or Knock Off- These move are fundamentally a part of Astro's concept of Offensive Team Support to me because these are offensive moves that help Astro support its team. While these moves do make Astro difficult to play around, removal of these moves takes away a lot of Astro's offensive game which is critical to its concept.

Nerfs Im on the fence about:
Haven't seen to much of the cheesy Trick+Taunt or Fire Spin+taunt sets but when it happens it can be the absolute worst. And on top of that, those sets are rather hard to scout. I think Astro should keep Taunt from a stallbreaking standpoint, but Fire Spin and Trick look like the source of its ability to trap and cheese its usual checks so those moves I would consider removing but if they aren't removed, I wouldn't be upset about it.

As for removing Explosion, I think its really cool and would like to keep it. Free dmg and preserve hazards at the cost of Astro and a moveslot is a great offensive option that supports the teams hazards pressure game and is a offensive move that doubles as a form of team support. However, it is difficult to scout and can make some matchups very volatile. But there are good reasons to get rid of it, making this a nerf Im not pro or against.

Nerfs I support:
Remove Toxic- Toxic makes punishing Astro extremely difficult. Think you can remove the spikes it lays with Tomo or Mandibuzz? You can but at the cost of getting put on a timer for the rest of the game. Astro already has solid counterplay options like Spikes and Knock Off which are elements I'm fine with, but Toxic takes it over the top. The removal of Toxic makes checks like Mandibuzz, Tomohawk, and Hippowdon a lot more reliable because they do not have to worry about being put on a timer. For now, this is the primary nerf that should be done.

 

[Yay61]

I’m not sure to what level the concept is supposed to affect the nerfing process, but I think fire lash should be removed anyway. While other moves like knock off and toxic have clear supportive qualities, fire lash only serves to pile on more pressure and abuse walls that Astrolotl has no business beating. I’ve almost never seen these drops being used by teammates aside from the unnecessary breaking power it gives to Astro. Removing this move forces it to rely on flare blitz which still leaves it with plenty of offensive prowess but provides more reliable counterplay and helps wear down Astro. It’s also worth noting that flare blitz has better instantaneous power than fire lash and so can certainly hold up the offensive presence necessary. The difference comes in when Astro threatens to stay in and continue to click fire lash against its checks, adding another dangerous and risk free possibility for the opponent to contend with. Reducing some bulk or speed or removing toxic are also things I could get behind but I think multiple changes need to occur either way.

 

[Dece1t]

I've been primarily lurking for a little while now, and by no means am I an avid player. I say this as someone looking from the outside, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

I notice very often with these nerfing processes that many of the suggestions get extreme, to the point where while the main points of contention are dealt with, but it drastically shifts the viability of a given nerfed CAP in a stunningly negative way; the only real exception I've seen being Equilibra. The mistake of over-nerfing (in my opinion) has happened to the likes of Aurumoth, Crucibelle, and in a very indirect way Smokomodo (during its inception process, which to me acted like a mock-nerfing). I share the sentiment that nerfing should be generally conservative as to not drastically alter the CAP's playstyle all the while keeping it within the same if not only slightly mitigated viability. If you ask me, I feel removing Toxic gets rid of the biggest problem I notice with Astrolotl, which is it's ability to quite easily break pasts its checks thanks in tandem to Regenerator and Fire Lash. In my opinion, nerfing its bulk and speed go a little too far, but in saying that, I see the case for removing Fire Spin, albeit a bit on the niche-y side of things. Nerfing its bulk (which a couple others explained better than me admittedly)/taking away support options such as Knock Off or Trick kind of ruin it's ability to fulfill its concept as offensive support, and it's also worth noting Knock Off is pretty prevalent in the metagame as it is (especially considering the loss of longetivy Astro encounters upon the removal of HDB). The removal of Fire Lash, I fear, may make Astrolotl too passive and have limited options to maintain any offensive presence. If we jeopardize its offensive presence (noting it's already a bit linear, lacking coverage bar Knock Off), I believe that takes the word "offensive" out of "offensive support." All it may become would be simply a fast support Pokemon with a little bulk. If Toxic is removed but Fire Lash is retained, it would solve the problem of Astrolotl having multiple ways to break its counters all the while not compromising its ability to dish respectable damage over time and pressure to fulfill its role to support in a viable way (setting Spikes, Knock Off, Trick, Defog, Heal Bell, Taunt/Twave/WoW, and even Imprison I would argue).

Tl;Dr Remove Toxic; anything else bar maybe the removal of the niche Fire Spin I feel is too extreme and could compromise its viability much more than we may anticipate.

 

[G-Luke]

I definitely think Toxic needs to go. But that probably isn't enough, so if one more move needs to be axed, I'd rather it come down to a vote between Fire Lash and Knock Off.

Fire Lash allows Astrolotl pressure bulky Pokémon that Astrolotl would normally not be able to, and the more I think about it, the more I believe that Fire Lash is pretty anti concept. We gave Astrolotl Fire Lash because we figured that its team mates would be the primary beneficiaries of the defense drops that Astro causes. But in reality, it is Astro who abuses the defense drops the most, allowing Astro to be able to stay in longer, force more switches and gain numerous more opportunities to spread status, knock items or do whatever funny things Astro loves to pull from its tail.


Knock Off is an alternative course we can take, as Knock Off went from being an interesting side option to being one of Astro's main attacks of choice. Knock Off is an extremely potent support option in this Heavy Duty Boots heavy metagame, and combined with Toxic, Fire Lash and Spikes (Astrolotl's bread and butter set) allows it to outlast almost every defensive wall in the tier. Toxic and Knock Off is very good in general, and if Fire Lash being removed is not preferable, Knock Off is definitely the next best thing, allowing Slowbro to be an actual counter instead of being worn down by Spikes thanks to not having an item.


I don't understand the points about "changiing how Astro plays" and "removing its Identity". Astro is barely a few months old yet, it hasn't even scratched the surface of what its identity is (dude has 92 SpA and no set has yet to use it) + while removing this move will radically change how Astro plays now, how Astro plays right
now is the reason we are having a nerfing process in the first place.

 

[Snorlax in the way]

I was unaware that removing fire lash was even an option, but I would like to right again that I believe that this would indeed be the best way to go about controlling CAP 27. I strongly agree with what pip has said in his post about the scouting and disruption of this pokemon, but I also believe things such as trick and fire spin are only so pressuring on team building because of fire spin. Fire lash makes out bulking CAP 27 for mons like slowbro and tomohawk a non option (slowbro specifically because fire lash into knock off is such a nuisance but I see no reason why CAP 27 should not be able to knock slowbro, and it would not nearly be as game breaking without the fire lash debuff amplifying the damage so much). My main point in my original post was about Trick Taunt being difficult to play around because of how it neutered fatter checks (not exclusive to CAP 27) because of the non negotiable options about what is able to check fire lash on any non offensive team. I believe with the removal of fire lash this matchup becomes much easier to manage, and it lessens the amount that needs to be removed for a more competitive creation. I would also just like to again bookend my opinions on explosion as a poorly thought out skin tag on the more offensive matchups when paired with a choice scarf, but I also feel people are not keen on removing it. That is up for cap to discuss if the need arises.

 

[xavgb]

I didn't respond to the survey because it was fairly soon after CAPPL started which was my first experience of the post-DLC meta, but based off my experience up until now I think that removing Toxic is the best course of action.

For me, Toxic is the only aspect of Astro that represents a real issue playing-wise, as it punishes would-be checks directly and immediately. Everything else on the table does indeed help Astro make progress, but not in a way that limits the opponent's options too heavily imo. There's time and options to pressure Astro before it comes in, and there's options to regain momentum in-between Astro clicking Knock/Spikes and a teammate forcing major progress, especially as breaking via Spikes isn't actually that easy in a meta dominated by Hawk Libra and Boots. I keep seeing people describe Lotl as something that just comes in non-stop and clicks buttons and wins through sheer utility, but truthfully it isn't and in p much every case where this happens there's usually either flawed teams or flawed playing. This isn't like Equilibra in Gen 7 where it would punish multiple otherwise great mons to the point they were far less usable (see Magearna dropping from S to B+ in one VR update after Equi's release). The mon doesnt have the bulk or the initial power to reduce the opponent's playing options that much, and the abundance of Knock/pivoting/delayed moves/Toxic/generally strong moves from offensive mons give enough room to stop it from coming and going as it pleases.

Outside of Toxic the things that I don't think are covered by what I said above would be Fire Spin, Fire Lash, and Trick. Fire Spin isn't really used as of now and having tried to build with it, I can say that the concept of trapping a defensive check and removing it with Fire Lash + Boom for something in the back to come through is actually much harder than it sounds to pull off in practice. Some checks straight up don't lose to the set at all, and even in the cases where Astro does successfully trade there's still backup counterplay for most good mons. Other less good abusers end up reliant on Astro successfully getting the kill before doing anything against their checks, which is pretty limiting in a lot of scenarios. As for Fire Lash, I wouldn't be strongly opposed to removing this, but it really doesn't force out any of the common switchins out that quickly, and I don't think removing it really changes the way you deal with Toxic, so I would be opposed to the implication that removing Fire Lash fixes the issues with Toxic. For what it's worth, if people are looking to cut out cheesier sets then Fire Lash is a decent way to go, I don't believe Flare Blitz is a major nerf compared to Lash either, but it should get rid of most issues that people have with the more niche sets. I'm pretty indifferent on Trick removal, though I will say clicking Knock Off is a large part of this meta which makes it way harder to abuse tricked mons esp when some Astro checks spend most of the game pivoting anyway. This may change if Astro loses Toxic because that puts the filler 4th slots on much more equal footing in terms of viability, but again as I said earlier I think the mon's fine as long as it doesn't make progress too quickly/easily and Toxic is the clearest case of Astro getting out of hand to me.

On another note, even if the identity of the mon isn't clear right now, the identity of the meta is already becoming pretty evident. There's a ton of consistent ways to break down teams, from delayed moves to Astro + friends to broken breakers to other good breakers. The main idea I'm strongly opposed to here is the removal of Knock/Spikes as those are healthy ways that Astro makes progress, and without compressing those roles onto one mon it's much harder for Astro to stay relevant in the context of the metagame, as it has to keep up with other fast-paced methods of breaking down teams

 

[Wolf134]

I'm not necessarily as avid a player since SwSh dropped, but I can say with manifest certainty that Toxic has got to go! Principally because I simply cannot see anything about Astro that even remotely indicates toxicity, thematically or otherwise.

That being said, I would also like to see a very slight nerf in its bulk. As in -5 to either its base Def or SpD so as to provide a better (even if only marginally so) incentive to switch out into one of its teammates.

Current bulk at 108/74/64
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 301-355 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 261-307 (62.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hypothetical bulk at 108/74/59
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 315-372 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 271-321 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Alternatively, I could vouch for the removal of either Fire Lash, or Knock Off mainly because while both moves are very difficult to deal with, it wouldn't hurt too much to remove one of them between the two.

 

[Mx]

At the beginning of this nerfing process, I was on the camp of removing only Toxic, but the longer the discussion goes, the more I feel like this wouldn't be enough. Even after taking away Toxic, Astrolotl would still be able to make progress against any team, as the combination of Fire Lash, Spikes and Knock Off can still wear the opposing team with ease, and on top of that, there's also moves like Trick or Fire Spin that can permanently cripple or outright remove checks. I believe that this huge array of options is a problem by itself, and for these reasons, at this moment, in addition to taking away Toxic, I'm also in favor of removing both Trick and Fire Spin.

My reasoning for this is that given the already very punishing nature of Fire Lash, Knock Off, and Spikes, Astrolotl shouldn't have even more ways to invalidate its checks on top of that. Even if neither of those is particularly common, they add another layer of unpredictability to Astrolotl that in my opinion really pushes it over the edge, and removing them means that walls like Tomohawk or Toxapex should always be able to safely pivot into Astrolotl through the whole game. Even with these removals, these Pokemon will still be annoyed by other moves, but they should be able to act as reliable checks even after being crippled, something that I believe would make Astrolotl much more fairer to play against and that I don't think should require further nerfs. Finally, for those that worry that removing these two moves will prevent Astrolotl from fulfilling its concept or it will somewhat affect its versatility, I think that given its massive movepool (which apart from the current staples also includes Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Wish, Heal Bell, Healing Wish, and many others), I firmly believe that Astrolotl will remain as a very powerful and versatile threat even after these nerfs.

That being said, I still don't want to completely discard other different nerfs just yet. Fire Lash can really be oppressive to face without a specific counter, although as xavgb said, is very likely than Flare Blitz+Toxic sets might be just or almost as bad as Fire Lash+Toxic. Of course, we could remove both Toxic and Fire Lash, but while combining these two huge nerfs would probably guarantee that Astrolotl won't be an issue again, they'd also be almost certainly excessive in my opinion. I'm also unsure what to think about nerfing Astrolotl's bulk, because, while that would certainly reduce its effectiveness, its bulk is not particularly great, and I don't know which kind of benchmark we'd be aiming for.

 

[Mx]

The CAP metagame council is currently planning on making a final decision this Sunday afternoon, so consider this an official 48 hours warning before the end of this thread.

 

[Mx]

Hello again everyone! The council has finally reached an agreement on Astrolotl, here's the summary of changes:

Astrolotl
Movepool: -Toxic, -Explosion, -Trick​

Tagging Marty to have this implemented on PS soon (they can just be removed since Astrolotl only exists in Gen 8)

snake edit: Please also remove these moves from Solotl's movepool (Astrolotl's pre-evolution)

First, we discussed Toxic, which was unanimously decided to be removed, as there were only a handful of Pokemon that weren't crippled by it and it allowed Astrolotl to make progress against virtually any team when used alongside Knock Off and Spikes. After that, we discussed Fire Lash, which was agreed to be a huge part of why playing against Astrolotl was so difficult, as the pressure it provides meant that most walls would lose against it in the long run if they can deal with it quickly. However, it was decided that while Fire Lash is an incredibly powerful move and a huge part of why Astrolotl was considered broken, targeting it alongside Toxic would be an excessive nerf, and just removing other moves instead of it should be enough.

We then quickly decided that other moves would be targeted next. The idea of nerfing Astolotl's bulk was also considered, but its movepool was ultimately decided to be the main culprit. After making a list of its most used moves, we identified the ones that would be considered for removal: Explosion, Trick, Fire Spin, Knock Off, and Spikes. The first three moves are usually not part of Astrolotl's main set, but they all saw some usage on more niche sets that allowed it to cripple or outright remove even the hardest of checks. Explosion was particularly strong and hard to scout in combinations with Fire Lash, as the defense drop meant that even the sturdiest of walls could get in Explosion range after just a few turns. Trick was used in Choice Scarf sets as an option to cripple something when Astrolotl no longer needs it. While this strategy was not as potent as Explosion, this still allowed Astrolotl to cripple its checks and added even more to the list of moves the opponent needed to be wary of. For these reasons, these two moves were removed from its movepool. Fire Spin was another niche move that also saw some discussion in this thread, but in the end, it was decided that without Explosion, Fire Spin sets would be too inconsistent to be worth targeting. Finally Knock Off and Spikes also saw some discussion, but while these two were admittedly the most powerful moves on our list, it was decided that removing them was not necessary after the other nerfs.

After that, it was clear to us that nothing else needed to be adjusted. We believe these changes should make Astrolotl much less uncompetitve to play against, as it lost many ways in which it could overcome its checks with just one move, but it should still remain as a powerful and versatile threat capable of finding its way into many teams.