CAP 28 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[Quanyails]

CAP 28 So Far

-----

Coming off Threats discussion, we have our initial threatlist for CAP 28:

And time's up! As no one has posted any objections, I haven't made any changes to the list showed above.

CAP 28 Threatlist:

• Checks and Counters: (only against physical sets)
• Pressure:
  
  :krillowatt:(at least offensive sets)
• Situational switch ins:(Only against mixed/special sets)
• Safe switch ins:(Teleport/Scald/Future Sight/Slack Off sets)

A few notes regarding this list:

1. This is supposed to represent how CAP 28 should be expected to perform based on concept and typing alone, later stages might alter this list drastically.
2. Being capable of switching safely into Slowbro and Slowking, immediately forcing out Blissey, and pressuring Steel-types should be our main priorities in order to achieve our concept.
3. Given that our current list of switch ins is very limited, adding more switch ins (either situational or safe) should be another main point of discussion on later stages.
4. Lowering the number of checks and counters to CAP 28 should also be considered, but it's not required and should not take priority over the previous 2 points, as that list is already rather small.

With that out of the way, it's time to move to the Primary Ability stage, which will be lead by the Rising Star himself, -Voltage-!

With that in mind, it's time to discuss Primary Ability! Please pay very close attention to -Voltage-'s posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Primary Ability banlist

Air Lock
Arena Trap
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Gulp Missile
Huge Power
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Ice Scales
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Libero
Mimicry
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Ball Fetch
Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy

 

[Voltage]

Hidey-ho sports fans, it's me, -Voltage-, your ability leader for CAP28! With our typing chosen (Bug/Dragon), and our finalized threatlist established (see Quany's post), let's talk about how we can make sure CAP28 can effectively do what it's supposed to do with it's concept! There's been good discussion about a variety of different ways to punish pivoting mons, but I think there are a few topics that I'd like for us to discuss with respect to abilities.

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

What I mean by these terms, active and passive is as follows: There are some abilities that might actively damage a pivoter upon acting (Rough Skin, Iron Barbs), or actively discourage contact with CAP28 through other means (Wandering Spirit, Poison Point, Motor Drive, etc.) . In contrast there are abilities that might be more passive in discouraging a switch as they don't propose an immediate true negative impact (Defiant, Competitive, etc.). What does our active vs. passive ability spectrum look like?

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

This is fairly straightforward, and sort of an extension of the previous question. Should CAP28's ability grant it merits that allow it to threaten pivots (granting resistances or immunities), or should its ability be an immediate issue for pivots, but not necessarily benefit CAP 28 itself (making it dependent on the matchup)?

________________________________________________________


If you want to use some older threads as reference, I'd heavily suggest CAP26's Ability process found here as the discussion covered a lot about pivoting. The thread is useful for developing potential counter-strategies to pivoting methods, and I think it's interesting to consider how diametrically we are opposed to that concept here.

Additionally, given the frequent discussions on Discord not always translating to the forums, I would HEAVILY RECOMMEND that if you have anything to share, you post it here. Obviously we want to discourage one liner "I agree" posts, but having more posts on the forums advocating for an ability will make it much more likely to end up on the slate. I look forward to seeing all the interesting and exciting suggestions for abilities you all present!

Discussions and questions will last from now until Thursday evening. After that evening passes, we'll move into the submission phase. I'll work to continue with at least a few intermittent questions as well in order to keep discussion lively. Please avoid proposing or submitting any specific abilities until the actual submission phase later in the week, so that we can consider all of our options.

 

[Voltage]

Table of Contents (bc this is a great idea)

1. Opening Post
   • Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?
   • To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?
     
     
2. Focused Follow Up Discussion Questions
   • To what extent should CAP28's ability account for setbacks with respect to typing, if any setbacks exist at all?
   • Are there any abilities that allow us to give ourselves more potential switch ins as referenced in Mx's closing post?
   • Are there any abilities that allow us to effectively accomplish Mx's proposed goal in the second point of their
     closing post?
     
     
3. Considered Slating List

 

[quziel]

To go on a slightly different tack, I think our ability should do one of three things;

1) Help us switch into pivots

This is a fairly simple one; being an anti-pivot mon means we should be adept at beating pivots, and thus switching into pivots. Some of the main concerns here are Scald burns, which can be fixed with Shield Dust, water immunity (Water Absorb), Water Veil, or other means, Volt Switch (aka Zeraora can laugh at us by Knock into Volt) through Lightning Rod or Motor Drive, or general resiliency (stats, or like Multiscale).

2) Help us hit post-pivot mons

It is no secret that our STAB combo is laughably bad as the two typings do not offer much if any reason to be used together (barring specific tech moves eg First Impression) as they have the same resists. An ability offering a substantial boost to off-stab attacks could be relevant here such as Punk Rock (boosts Boomburst, makes Bug Buzz better), Steelworker (limited use, but Bug+Steel is better than Bug+Dragon), or ig Strong Jaws (limited use). These provide a substantial boost in our ability to make value plays by hitting eg Slowking or Astrolotl for workable damage, instead of having to predict, thus easing our matchup against pivots we force out.

3) Directly target pivots

This is mainly down to well, the elephant in the room, Neutralizing Gas, which prevents Regen (slowbrothers) from working. This is guaranteed to be concept relevant, and will always work. Recoil abilities that trigger on hit such as Rough Skin, Static, and Effect spore are also here, though are more limited as we're not targeting U-turn atm.

There are others of course that I'd like to discuss after we move on; eg abilities that reward staying in (see Stamina for a almost certainly not-applicable example).

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

First off, Table of Contents is such a smart idea Voltage. Thank you for doing this.

• Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?
• To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

1) Using your definition of active vs passive, I think passive is the way to go. That isn't to say this CAP shouldn't be active, but the CAP can prevent pivot actively through move pool pressure (which isn't the easiest thing to do because of our typing but we will make it work). There are pivots whose items/abilities actively dmg their opponents (Rocky Helmet, Iron Barb, Rough skin, stuff like that) but usually can make it work thanks to bulk and or a strong def typing. While stats have not been discussed yet, bug/dragon isn't really a good def typing. Im pro punishing u-turns, but with a Pokemon that take neutral dmg, its tricky. Especially since nearly everyone will run HDB on this mon.

2) I think an ability that benefits CAP28 more than punishing the opponent is the way to go for this one. This can come from abilities that offer immunities to try and round out the def typing (think water absorb, Motor Drive, etc.) or an ability that increases are offensive pressure (technician, Punk Rock, Water Bubble...but its banned).

 

[earl]

Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

Given CAP28's targets (being primarily teleport pivots from what I can tell) I think an active ability is necessary here- with such an impotent STAB combo having a direct way to punish these targets is essential, as barring an absurd movepool/statline it will not be difficult for any team to find a consistent switch-in for this pokemon. Obvious standout is Neutralizing Gas, which can ensure that at least chip damage remains on the retreating Slowbro/Toxapex (given we force this one out somehow)/Blissey/etc. Contact abilities don't seem to be the best option as this CAP with undoubtedly want boots over helmet, and most of the targeted pivots rely on Teleport/Volt Switch anyways. On the other hand, an electric immunity would help massively in the Zeraora matchup, and is a valid pick going forward. Another active ability I though of, specifically for Slowtwins and Blissey, would be Stakeout- Given this CAP can threaten heavy damage on these pivots while also being unrealistc to switch into when boosted, Stakeout could be a viable way to trap these pivots. A very strong ability overall, though. Passive abilities, with the current typing, don't look like the right way to go as the ability is (in my opinion) the biggest factor in whether or not this CAP successfully anti-pivots and a passive ability wouldn't quite do that.

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

Pivots are omnipresent and I don't see an issue with this CAP being niche with such a concept, so I believe the ability should punish opponents rather than benefit CAP28.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I'd like to answer the second question before jumping back to the first.

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

Ok, there is no easy way around saying this but Bug/Dragon is very much a less-than-optimal typing that makes our life quite a bit harder for this concept. Obviously I think that there are some other stages where these issues can be circumvented, but I think ability is an area that at least addressing some of the problems with the typing is important. With that in mind, I think it is much more important for CAP28 to gain an ability that benefits CAP28 directly instead of punishing the opponents CAP28 faces. By doing so, I think we open CAP28 up to a bit more freedom in what it can do in later stages, instead of having to play catchup for the rest of the process.

There are two categories available for self-beneficial ability, those being of the offensive variety and of the defensive variety. Offensi,ve ones improve our attacking capabilities and good examples are stuff like Adaptability, Tinted Lens, Steelworker, and Punk Rock. Defensive are more about addressing our weakness that we may face, such as stuff like Scald Burns, status, and a knock off weakness in regards to losing Heavy-Duty Boots, a likely item for this CAP. In this area, stuff like Shield Dust and Magic Guard are good picks and help patch up some of CAP's largest problem with regards to its typing.

I am absolutely not saying that CAP28 can't have an ability that instead chooses to punish its foes. Neutralizing Gas is a juggernaut in that regard. I just personally think giving CAP28 some benefits now will be the best fit to actualize its concept later.

 

[ImperialGamer517]

Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

I think a passive ability is best. Since CAP28 is mostly aimed at disrupting Teleport strategies and there is no way to punish this actively, since by active, it means by punishing through residual damage.

To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

I believe that we should punish opponents in order to further help prevent pivoting strategies such as U-turn, Volt Switch, etc. It can be either abilities that offer immunities, abilities that cause damage to those who make contact, or abilities that give status.

 

[dex]

Hidey-ho sports fans, it's me, -Voltage-, your ability leader for CAP28! With our typing chosen (Bug/Dragon), and our finalized threatlist established (see Quany's post), let's talk about how we can make sure CAP28 can effectively do what it's supposed to do with it's concept! There's been good discussion about a variety of different ways to punish pivoting mons, but I think there are a few topics that I'd like for us to discuss with respect to abilities.

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

What I mean by these terms, active and passive is as follows: There are some abilities that might actively damage a pivoter upon acting (Rough Skin, Iron Barbs), or actively discourage contact with CAP28 through other means (Wandering Spirit, Poison Point, Motor Drive, etc.) . In contrast there are abilities that might be more passive in discouraging a switch as they don't propose an immediate true negative impact (Defiant, Competitive, etc.). What does our active vs. passive ability spectrum look like?

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

This is fairly straightforward, and sort of an extension of the previous question. Should CAP28's ability grant it merits that allow it to threaten pivots (granting resistances or immunities), or should its ability be an immediate issue for pivots, but not necessarily benefit CAP 28 itself (making it dependent on the matchup)?

________________________________________________________


If you want to use some older threads as reference, I'd heavily suggest CAP26's Ability process found here as the discussion covered a lot about pivoting. The thread is useful for developing potential counter-strategies to pivoting methods, and I think it's interesting to consider how diametrically we are opposed to that concept here.

Additionally, given the frequent discussions on Discord not always translating to the forums, I would HEAVILY RECOMMEND that if you have anything to share, you post it here. Obviously we want to discourage one liner "I agree" posts, but having more posts on the forums advocating for an ability will make it much more likely to end up on the slate. I look forward to seeing all the interesting and exciting suggestions for abilities you all present!

Discussions and questions will last from now until Thursday evening. After that evening passes, we'll move into the submission phase. I'll work to continue with at least a few intermittent questions as well in order to keep discussion lively. Please avoid proposing or submitting any specific abilities until the actual submission phase later in the week, so that we can consider all of our options.

Sorry for not participating that much in the threat discussion, I just thought pretty much everything that needed to be said was said pretty early on. Anyways, I'm back with my pretty bad analysis and suggestions.

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?
I'm in agreement with Stall Guy in that I think passive is the way to go here. Whether it's thwarting Scald or giving CAP28 some other form of defensive ability, I think going passive allows CAP28 to really focus on the role we're trying to fill here. This is especially true given that we're focusing on Teleport users where a more active ability like Rough Skin doesn't really have an effect.

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?
It's a little hard for me to discern an answer for this one given that I think the ability should be passive. I'm leaning towards benefiting CAP28, as there isn't really an ability that punishes teleport users. Therefore, I think an ability that helps it threaten pivots would be more beneficial.

 

[Darek]

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

I, like many others, believe that the ability should passively punish pivoting. For one, our main targets are the Teleporters, and unlike U-Turn which can be punished by contact, or Volt Switch which can be punished with an electric immunity, Teleport is nearly impossible to actively punish. Furthermore, CAP28 won't be able to switch in on many of the U-turners like Dragapult, Urshifu, and Syclant anyway without some absurd stats, so actively punishing through contact isn't really feasible.

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

I believe that CAP28 should absolutely focus on an ability that benefits itself. Currently, CAP28's only safe switch-in is on the Slowtwins, and even then, a scald burn severely cripples CAP28 if it ends up being physical. If CAP28 doesn't have more reliable switch-ins, it'll end up being a mon that benefits from being pivoted in, not a mon that stops pivoting, which is probably the last thing we want. Because of this, I believe that an ability that helps CAP28 switch in more often should be the course of action here. For instance, Shield Dust can prevent Scald burns from the Slowtwins, or Magic Guard could let CAP 28 switch in on Toxic from Blissey or Hippowdon or, thanks to being freed from HDB, Knock Off from Rillaboom and Tangrowth. Still, I think that punishing abilities, such as Neutralizing Gas, should be on the table, but I personally think they should be saved for the secondary ability.

 

[Zephyri]

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

I think a passive abil over here (i'm assuming passive means self-benefitting) would be suitable. The fact that Bug-Dragon on it's own doesn't have too many positive MUs isn't too great, so I honestly think an ability that allows us to get some more positive matchups is kinda required. An ability that boosts a stat (Moxie, Defiant), and defensive abils would be very relevant here, i feel like. Such abilities either reinforce the pokemon itself, or punish the Teleport turn (which imo is an extremely unprecedented, interesting, and most importantly fun way to go about this). Tbh, the only "active" ability i see working is uhh Ngas or a third STAB ability

 

[Astra]

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

It seems like a passive ability is the most agreed upon type of ability for CAP 28, and I'd like to agree with that. Like what others have said, Teleport, the pivoting tool of the Pokemon CAP 28 is supposed to safely switch into, is practically impossible to punish actively, so there's nothing much else I can add.

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

I believe that CAP 28's ability should allow CAP 28 to switch into its main targets, Slowbro and Slowking, as much as possible throughout a game, and this can be done by benefiting CAP 28 itself or putting the opposition in a disadvantageous position.

In terms of benefiting CAP 28 itself, providing it with an ability to make status a much lesser problem for it would most likely be the best and healthiest path to go. Since CAP 28 is seemingly going to be a switch-in that Slowbro and Slowking can't do much against, I think it's safe to assume that one of their options, besides hard switching out predicting the switch-in, would be to fish for a burn with Scald, especially if CAP 28 chooses to go towards the physical attacker route. More than half of the Pokemon CAP 28 is planned to be able to situationally switch in can also spread status, notably Blissey and Hippowdon with Toxic. As such, an ability to make status not that big of a problem, such as Natural Cure, can help to benefit CAP 28 by allowing it to consistently switch into Pokemon safely without worrying about being inflicted with status, which seems like the best deterrent the Pokemon listed have beside a few.

When it comes to punishing CAP 28's foes, disabling their abilities effects is looking like the most popular route to go to. The Teleport users listed as safe or situationally safe switch-ins for CAP 28, which include Slowbro, Slowking, and Blissey, all have abilities they benefit from upon switching out, which is why they make really good pivots. The common notion seems to be that Neutralizing Gas would be the best option for this path, and it seems to be really good on paper, but I feel like this is too focused on punishing the Pokemon doing the pivoting rather than slowing down and punishing the pivoting strategy itself. Yes, Neutralizing Gas would prevent Slowbro and Slowking from regaining HP back after pivoting, and it would also prevent Blissey from curing it from any status, but is that really "slowing down" or "punishing" the pivoting strategy itself? It's a little bit of a silly question, I'll admit, as losing HP and being inflicted by status slows down your strategy in general, but what's still stopping those Pokemon from pivoting if the main goal is to pivot out into a check or counter to CAP 28, besides Blissey being asleep or frozen against it? And if that check or counter forces CAP 28 out, what's stopping the opponent from waiting for an opportunity to switch back into their pivot, only for it to pivot out into that same check or counter predicting CAP 28 to come back in? I think if we choose to use an ability that punishes the opposition, we would also have to decide if we want CAP 28 to punish them in the long-term, which would probably be something like Neutralizing Gas preventing the opposing pivots from staying healthy while freely pivoting out consistently thanks to it, or the short-term, which admittedly sounds harder to do.

I apologize if I made any mistakes here; it's my first time participating in this stage of any CAP process.

 

[Krazyguy75]

Hidey-ho sports fans, it's me, -Voltage-, your ability leader for CAP28! With our typing chosen (Bug/Dragon), and our finalized threatlist established (see Quany's post), let's talk about how we can make sure CAP28 can effectively do what it's supposed to do with it's concept! There's been good discussion about a variety of different ways to punish pivoting mons, but I think there are a few topics that I'd like for us to discuss with respect to abilities.

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

What I mean by these terms, active and passive is as follows: There are some abilities that might actively damage a pivoter upon acting (Rough Skin, Iron Barbs), or actively discourage contact with CAP28 through other means (Wandering Spirit, Poison Point, Motor Drive, etc.) . In contrast there are abilities that might be more passive in discouraging a switch as they don't propose an immediate true negative impact (Defiant, Competitive, etc.). What does our active vs. passive ability spectrum look like?

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

This is fairly straightforward, and sort of an extension of the previous question. Should CAP28's ability grant it merits that allow it to threaten pivots (granting resistances or immunities), or should its ability be an immediate issue for pivots, but not necessarily benefit CAP 28 itself (making it dependent on the matchup)?

________________________________________________________


If you want to use some older threads as reference, I'd heavily suggest CAP26's Ability process found here as the discussion covered a lot about pivoting. The thread is useful for developing potential counter-strategies to pivoting methods, and I think it's interesting to consider how diametrically we are opposed to that concept here.

Additionally, given the frequent discussions on Discord not always translating to the forums, I would HEAVILY RECOMMEND that if you have anything to share, you post it here. Obviously we want to discourage one liner "I agree" posts, but having more posts on the forums advocating for an ability will make it much more likely to end up on the slate. I look forward to seeing all the interesting and exciting suggestions for abilities you all present!

Discussions and questions will last from now until Thursday evening. After that evening passes, we'll move into the submission phase. I'll work to continue with at least a few intermittent questions as well in order to keep discussion lively. Please avoid proposing or submitting any specific abilities until the actual submission phase later in the week, so that we can consider all of our options.

We absolutely need a passive defensive ability that enables us to switch in, and it needs to be an absolute juggernaut of an ability. I know there are no takebacksies, but boy is Bug/Dragon solidly anti-concept on its own. If we do not get something we can freely switch into pivots with, we will become solidly dependent on being pivoted in, which is the worst possible place to land: making the strongest pivot counter reliant on pivots means that pivot teams will just become stronger and even more prevalent.

Any ability that doesn’t give us that breathing room will be catastrophic to later steps and the concept as a whole. Honestly, as detrimental as it was to Equilibra's gameplay to have dual immunities, I’d be down for having a pair of immunities here, like water and electric. We need all the help we can get to drag this back on track so that we don’t become pivot dependent ourselves. Heck, I’d be down for friggen Wonder Guard if it weren’t banned, that’s how much help we need defensively.

 

[theotherguytm]

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

Honestly, most of the "active" route sounds mostly aimed towards combating U-turn, which doesn't really fit our typing and the discussions made in the previous stage. With the notable exception of Ngas. But the "passive" route sounds much more promising, with options like shoring ourself up against Scald (/Scorching Sands/Will-O-Wisp) burns, blocking Volt Switch, or outright status absorption.

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

Having an Ability that shores up our defences I think is pretty well established thusfar.
One thing I want to bring up is the three Grass types our typing should be strong against (Rillaboom, Tangrowth, possibly Ferrothorn) all commonly use Knock Off as coverage or a crippling tool. However, we rely on Heavy-Duty Boots to block hazard damage, without which we are crippled. Toxapex, a Pokemon currently under C&C but some people expressed an interest in being able to beat (and I agree), also can carry Knock Off to cripple us. I think our hazard vulnerability needs to be addressed in some way before we can touch any of these 4 mons.

1) Help us switch into pivots

I think this is going to be the critical one here. It's no good being able to beat Blissey if every time we switch into it we're chancing a crippling effect. It's no good dreaming of switching into Ferrothorn if Knock Off and Leech Seed stop us cold. It's no good dreaming of switching into Toxapex if we just take a Scald burn.

TL:DR; Anything but Poison Heal.

 

[psykokitty]

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

I think an active role is what we should be considering. I think the examples given above focus a little too much on contact moves, hence theotherguytm's reservations, but I think there are other ways to actively prevent pivoting, as alluded to in my response to the following...

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

I think CAP28's ability should absolutely focus on punishing the opponent rather than benefiting itself. Our concept is to make a 'mon that specializes in preventing pivoting, and that's a decision that lies with the opponent. I think the way to go with this is by taking Quizel's suggestion that our ability 'help us hit post-pivot mons'. By adopting this mentality, we will focus ourselves and push towards a specialized actualization of the concept rather than a somewhat generically useful pokemon. So, I think it's more pro-concept to punish the opponent.

 

[Amamama]

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

What I mean by these terms, active and passive is as follows: There are some abilities that might actively damage a pivoter upon acting (Rough Skin, Iron Barbs), or actively discourage contact with CAP28 through other means (Wandering Spirit, Poison Point, Motor Drive, etc.) . In contrast there are abilities that might be more passive in discouraging a switch as they don't propose an immediate true negative impact (Defiant, Competitive, etc.). What does our active vs. passive ability spectrum look like?

As most have pointed out by now, having the means to actively punish pivoting with our ability doesn’t do much for our typing or match ups. Some abilities like Lightning Rod, Rattled or Neutralizing gas could still be interesting since they are more targeted at the matchups we want to exploit.
I do want to mention, that a passive ability against pivoting, doesn’t mean a defensive ability per se.
Abilities like Defiant, Competitive, Storm Drain, Weak Armor or Speed boost don‘t actively punish a pivoting move or the Pivots themselves, But they give us means to Offensivexploit common straregies employed by pivoters.
In the same vein boosting abilities like adaptability, sheer force or tinted lens dont target pivoting moves but they shore up our offensiv pressure on the opponent, making it outright harder to pivot.

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

This is fairly straightforward, and sort of an extension of the previous question. Should CAP28's ability grant it merits that allow it to threaten pivots (granting resistances or immunities), or should its ability be an immediate issue for pivots, but not necessarily benefit CAP 28 itself (making it dependent on the matchup)?

I think there are two ways to go from here wrt the main ability.
Either we shore up our defenses to be able to come in on pivots throughout the game, for example giv8ng us ways to deal with passive damage, secondary effects Or common moves used by viable pivots, so that we can effectively handle them no matter how long the game turns out to be.
Or we enhance our ability to punish long term play by increasing the damage we can force onto our opponent. This mostly means boosting abilities or abilities that give us a third STAB, but also Neutralizing Gas that helps us force damage onto our targets.

We absolutely need a passive defensive ability that enables us to switch in, and it needs to be an absolute juggernaut of an ability. I know there are no takebacksies, but boy is Bug/Dragon solidly anti-concept on its own. If we do not get something we can freely switch into pivots with, we will become solidly dependent on being pivoted in, which is the worst possible place to land: making the strongest pivot counter reliant on pivots means that pivot teams will just become stronger and even more prevalent.

I dont think this is a correct assessment. Many of the Pokémon that punish Pivoting inherently love a free Switch in.
Slower Wallbreaker or Frail Set Up sweeper like the free turn that a slow pivot can afford them.
Any offensive Pokémon, that can threaten the opponent with one free turn will like the opportunity to come in undamaged. Some can do that with immunities or maybe great bulk. But most cannot afford to take a shot or be crippled in other ways.

This means if CAP 28 appreciates pivot support, we didn’t fail the concept, as long as It is able to punish the opposing teams Pivoting.

Also there wasn’t a single type on the slate that wouldn’t have had the same issues coming in on our targets outside of stealth rock weakness (which Ice/Grass and Electri/Bug Share). All would have had to live with the idea of being burned or toxiced or knocked.
Where I feel our typing lacks compared to others on the Slate is offensively. Our STAB Combo is awkward as hell.
Thus i would argue, that rather then just shoring up our defense, we need to at least boost our offenses as well or even fully embrace the detriments this typing has defensively and go all out offensively, lest we want to go overboard in Stats or movepool.
Because if we don’t address our awkward offensive position now, we only relegate that to later stages.

 

[G-Luke]

1. Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

I think the need to have a "passive" ability is pretty overrated. Trying to shore up CAP 28's defensive flaws sounds appealing at first, but then we are left to rely on movepool to punish pivots, and as you can see by our list of mons we switch in on and force out, we have a very small list of mons we punish, especially in regards to pivots. I think an active aggressive route is the way for CAP 28 to go, as you can note from our Pressure list, having a passive ability won't help us adequately pressure them. In regards to what direction we can go with, its pretty wide, but

2. To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

I think this is an unclear question in wording, as any ability that allows CAP 28 to perform its role will be detrimental to the opponent. I think a better question here is whether we want to have an ability that is proactive (attempts to prevent or dissuade a Pokémon from performing pivoting) and one that is reactive (punishes a Pokémon for pivoting or punishes the Pokémon that is pivoted to). In this regard I think either way is beneficial for CAP 28 to go for. Teleport is our main target, and while preventing it with an ability is next to impossible, dissuading the teleporter by threatening a KO or a means of permanently crippling it is not out of reach, (the only one that comes to mind is NGas). That being said, I believe reactive abilities make more sense for this concept, as while it may be impossible to stop or dissuade Teleport, heavily punishing a Pokémon for choosing Teleport is more than doable.

 

[Rabia]

I'd go active with the primary ability. I agree with G-Luke in that this typing probably lends itself a bit more to an offensive role (despite the redundant STAB coverage) and that realistically, our best bet is to just hit shit as hard as possible. Abilities like Tinted Lens and Punk Rock come to mind as aggressive abilities that let CAP 28 exert significantly more pressure against the opposition; I don't really see the appeal to abilities like Poison Point because I see very little incentive to use this CAP in a defensive regard. I can get behind something like Shield Dust, though, in the sense that if we DO want to take advantage of the slow brothers to a greater degree, avoiding Scald burns in some way is helpful.

I think I covered the second question in my first paragraph, but I would definitely look first to an ability that directly benefits CAP 28, as in not an ability that looks so much to directly punish the opposition a la Rough Skin or Iron Barbs. I think more directly buffing up the ability of CAP 28 to dish out damage and fuck on the opponent for wanting to pivot around repeatedly, we get the most out of the tools we're working with.

 

[Geysers]

Echoing what’s been said above, it’s extremely hard to have an ability that can punish a Pokemon for clicking teleport, and since we’re clearly targeting teleporters over users of either U-Turn or Volt Switch, I feel that the utility that could be gotten from an ability like Rough Skin or Iron Barbs is extraordinarily limited. The phrasing of “active or passive” seems a bit odd here, since it’s incredibly hard, bordering on impossible, to ”actively” punish a mon for clicking teleport.

I agree with Rabia’s idea that the optimal way to punish pivot users in a pro-concept fashion would just be to hit like a truck and nuke potential switchins. Owing to our bug typing, slow-pivoting out of users of either Volt Switch or U-Turn with our own U-Turn could be a possibility, so an ability like Tough Claws could be very effective. Additionally, since we appear to be headed for a more physically biased route, the majority of relevant physical STAB moves that could be accessible to CAP 28 would appreciate the tough claws boost. An ability like Adaptability could work pretty well too, giving a significant power boost to STAB moves, and making switching even bulkier resists in a dangerous move. Tinted Lens also fits in this boat and could probably be quite potent. I also think that Punk Rock or another ability to boost coverage moves, notably Steelworker, could be exceptionally potent, although Punk Rock seems a bit odd considering that we seem to be angling towards a physical bias since we’re targeting Blissey.

This is my first time attempting to contribute to CAP discussion, although I’ve lurked since early 27, so I’m not entirely new to the process. I hope I didn’t inadvertently break any rules here, and also that I contributed generally useful ideas. Thanks for reading this text-block.
e: typo

 

[Wolf134]

• To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

To put it bluntly, we should definitely play to the strengths that the Bug/Dragon typing brings to the table, that being the offensive pressure it's sure to dish out. This may mean setting up on the pokemon as it pivots out, and then utterly destroying the pokemon pivoting in, via strong priority or phazing.

I'm willing to vouch for abilities such as Speed Boost or Stakeout, which raises the speed stat by one stage, and doubes the base power of CAP 28's moves on any mon switching in that turn.

I may also vouch for a rather unorthodox approach to our anti-pivoting strategy, and Sniper can help in that it boosts the damage critical hits inflict upon the opponent.

 

[Jewvia]

boy is Bug/Dragon solidly anti-concept on its own... I’d be down for having a pair of immunities here, like water and electric

I strongly disagree with this assessment, especially considering we resist both of the examples you provided. Our biggest electric threat is Zeraora. Even if we have an okay defensive spread like Goodra with 90 hp/70 def, Choice Band Plasma Fists is only a 3HKO, a problem that every single typing on the slate other than Grass/Water and Fighting/Psychic would have had (they would lose 77.9-91.6%. That's also all calcs for Choice Band, HDB Zeraora is even weaker with only a 4HKO against a typing that takes 1/2 incoming damage. Past that, the other big reason to take an ability like Volt Absorb would be to just deny Volt Switch, but then we are missing out on dealing with the more important Teleport.

The same goes for Water, Bug/Dragon was the only non-Grass type to resist water on the slate, and the only option on poll 2 to resist it. We would be worse off against water types defensively if we picked any of the electric typings or Fighting/Psychic. The real problem we have against Water is the burn from Scald, which can be solved in a multitude of ways

The only reason to take either of these two immunities is not to "fix" our typing, but to solve a problem that any typing in the game other than Fire (burn) or Ground (volt switch) would have, and neither typing was slated (or even proposed to begin with iirc.) If we wanted to suggest an immunity to one of these two ideas, it should not be to "fix" our typing.


- Should CAP28's ability take an active role or passive role in preventing pivoting?

I think an active ability would be the best to take here. More specifically, either an active ability that is able to punish a Teleporter (such as NGas removing Serene Grace/Regenerator), or an ability that increases our damage output such as Compound Eyes (for Megahorn/Draco Meteor), Punk Rock (for Overdrive/Bug Buzz), or Tinted Lens (to neutralize Bug's 7 offensive weaknesses that a U-Turn/Volt Switcher could pivot into). Being able to bring down our pivoter or whoever they pivot into would be a big win.

If we do want a passive ability, the only ones I would be in favour of are the kind that punish specifically Scald or Toxic on specifically Offensive or Mixed sets. Abilities like Guts or Shiled Dust would help us with this job rather well. Magic Guard is nice too, it covers a lot more ground defensively as well. These are nice abilities to helps us with the switch in, but then we are relying almost entirely on our stats stage to give us enough offensive bulk to deal with our targets, especially those outside Slows and Toxic Walls. If anything, I would say these are better for consideration for a secondary ability.

Our Primary Ability should be an active ability that will help us cover a great deal of ground, or help us with the challenging task of punishing Teleport.


- To what extent should CAP28's ability benefit CAP28 more than it punishes CAP28's opponent?

I think I touched on this in the first part. Basically, our ability should allow us to punish the pivoter or their switch in by choosing to swap. The damage coming in from a Volt Switch/Turn is not something we should be worrying about considering we resist all of their offensive typings. The big thing that makes these pivot moves strong is how they can shift the momentum that a raw tag just can't do as well, being able to throw out damage and swap (and on slower mons/teleport, tank a hit too.) We should want to punish that by instead turning these pivots into a momentum shift in our favour. While abilities that directly increase our offenses like Tinted Lens/Punk Rock/Compound Eyes benefit CAP28 directly, they also allow us to punish the opponent for switching out by delivering a powerful STAB move on the new target (or for Teleporters, allow us to murder them with high damage STAB moves, but this is more of a Compound Eyes boon.) And it goes without saying that Neutralizing Gas is a massive punish to all Regenerators, as well as Natural Cure Eggs.

One more thing to note is that, looking at our threats list, we can potentially defeat a lot of these threats (Dragapult, Syclant, Stratagem, and Weavile) on Switch In with the right offensive power. Assuming we lose to them in the Speed run, a sufficiently powerful offensive ability helps us punish the pivot for switching them in through high damage. Even Sheer Force or Analytic helps us to this end, giving us a raw damage boost to punish the Pokemon that switches in for switching in. And at the end of it, I think that is the key to punishing non-Teleport pivots.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

Based on the conversation above, this concept can go with a recactive approach but proactive seems to the be the way to go.
1st off, hitting post pivot mons can be rather tricky. While a solid idea against fast pivots like , pokemons brought in by slow pivots like teleports are pretty hard to hit due to the teleports low speed and teleport negative priority. + a lot of fast pivots have ways of punishing us (Knock Off) so trying to punish those post pivots moves is already risky.

In general, a good ability falls into 2 different categories to me:
1) Increase offensive pressure to compensate for bug/dragon not being the best offensive typing. Examples of abilities that fall into this category are: Punk Rock, Tinted Lens, Tough Claws, and Technician. What OP refers to as "proactive".

2) Abilities that serve to take advantage of or to punish pivots either by switching in on the pivot or pivot coming in on CAP 28. The variance for this classification of abilities are quite large. To me, examples include: Trace, Analytic, Water Absorb, Motor Drive, Iron Barbs, and maybe Magic Guard. What OP refers to as "reactive".

Both styles are viable and pro concept and while proactive generally seems the way to go based on what we have so far, some reactive abilities are equally worth considering. In those cases, I think it comes down to player preference? Some players like to take a proactive approach, others reactive. Maybe CAP 28 should try and get the best of both worlds?

I read over the rules to make sure this proposition is allowed. And nothing states I can't put this out there. So here is a weird idea.
Maybe the primary ability should be proactive, and the secondary should be reactive (or vice versa)? Assuming both abilities are equally viable, this would allow CAP 28 to change its approach based on what pivots player is looking to deal with and player preference.

This is my first time attempting to contribute to CAP discussion, although I’ve lurked since early 27, so I’m not entirely new to the process. I hope I didn’t inadvertently break any rules here, and also that I contributed generally useful ideas. Thanks for reading this text-block.

For a first time, your post is awesome. Brings up a lot of good points of discussion.

 

[jas61292]

As our main goal is targeting teleport users, I think we would have a hard time punishing them directly for what they do. Any good ability that contributes to this goal will be more about protecting ourselves or boosting ourselves, much moreso than directly hurting the opponent. So in that sense, by the definitions given, I think passive is clearly the way to go.

I also think that, it is somewhat debatable what the difference between benefiting yourself and punishing your opponent. A lot of abilities benefit yourself by punishing your opponent. So I think we need to be a bit more specific here. Personally, while I think there are a lot of possible ways we can go with this, I think that by far the best route would be to go for an ability that protects ourself from what our targets can do. While I agree with the people who suggest that our best way to beat our targets is just to hit as hard as possible, I think that is a goal best dealt with in the Stats stage. I am far more concerned here with making sure we get the safe switch ins we need to actually take advantage of any earth shattering power.

In this regard, the most pressing concern that we have would be scald burns. Simply put, with us wanting to be able to potentially switch into and beat Blissey, it becomes practically a given that we will need physical power. That's not to say we will be a pure physical attacker or even a primary one. But we are not going to be dumping that stat. It is too important. But beating Blissey with non-STAB moves is hard enough. If we are burned, its just not happening. And it just so happens that our number one targets pack Scald as their primary move. While I do not think it is 100% necessary that we use our ability to protect us from burn, I do think it is an important thing to consider, and, unlike most other presented concerns, it is something that can only be dealt with in this stage.

More generally though, as I said, I think we should absolutely be focusing on abilities that help us get in safely. While burn is my preferred target, abilities that protect us from other switch in dangers, like hazards or toxic are also solid ideas. Scald suck, but it is also less likely to burn than not, so while I would love to address it, if we can make other important switch ins safer, that could be equally valuable to our goals. Anything from Magic Guard to Immunity to Poison Heal to even Natural Cure.

Our switch in targets are mainly defensive mons that do not threaten directly with power. If we want to actually realize the ability to reliably switch into them, we need to make sure we are protected from the threatening things they can do to us on the switch in. And as those things are not damage, this is almost certainly going to be the only stage in which we can address them.

 

[dex]

This might be jumping a little ahead, but I sorted pretty much every semi-relevant ability into passive/active and beneficial/punishing. Some of it may be mixed up but I think it could be a good reference point. Feel free to take it down if it's not the time for this.

Passive and Beneficial: Clear Body, Comatose, Filter, Fluffy, Immunity, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Marvel Scale, Mirror Armor, Misty Surge, Multiscale, Natural Cure, Neutralizing Gas, Overcoat, Poison Heal, Pressure, Shed Skin, Solid Rock, Stamina, Sticky Hold, Sturdy, Water Veil, White Smoke

Active and Beneficial: Dry Skin, Lightning Rod, Motor Drive, Sap Sipper, Steam Engine, Storm Drain, Volt Absorb, Water Absorb, Water Compaction, Weak Armor

Passive and Punishing: Adaptability, Analytic, Beast Boost, Competitive, Compound Eyes, Contrary, Corrosion, Defiant, Download, Flare Boost, Guts, Hustle, Justified, Mega Launcher, Moxie, No Guard, Punk Rock, Quick Feet, Rattled, Serene Grace, Sheer Force, Simple, Skill Link, Stakeout, Technician, Tinted Lens, Tough Claws, Toxic Boost, Triage, Unburden

Active and Punishing: Flame Body, Effect Spore, Gooey, Iron Barbs, Mummy, Perish Body, Poison Point, Rough Skin, Static, Synchronize, Tangling Hair, Wandering Spirit

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

Just before answering the questions, I've had a hard time trying to discuss about CAP28 since I know barely anything about the CAP metagame let alone OU, but I wanted to contribute something.

1. I have a hard time answering this since by the definition by the OP they seem to have the end goal of punishing with a negative impact for the opponent. In my eyes, all of the abilities listed are passive since it's based on the opponent's move rather than yours. I would say an active ability that CAP28 can use directly is the best way to go, since Teleport does not interact with the opposing pokemon at all.

2. The ability should be beneficial to CAP28, since having an ability detrimental to the pivot would only limit its viability, and its typing is much more offensive than defensive. An exception is Neutralizing Gas, which can disrupt much more than Regenerator.

Other Notes:
-I don't see why Tinted Lens is a good concept ability, the only pokemon in our switch-ins that resist any of our STABs is Rotom-H resisting bug, which means it's mostly a wasted ability against what we should get in against. I think any other damage boosting ability would be better.
-I'm assuming that CAP28 would utilize it's concept when it gets a free switch-in and the target doesn't pivot out the turn it comes in, otherwise it seems difficult to counter this. An ability I see could otherwise exploit this is Speed Boost, where since they pivot out, a fast attacker would be hesitant to come in.
-I'm still having a hard time seeing CAP28 be effective at stopping pivoting if they cannot KO any pivoter with recovery effectively. They could just stay in and stall with toxic damage or slowly wittle down CAP28.

Again sorry for inexperience, feel free to correct me.