Resource SS UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
New Pokemon

Chansey —> A or A+ seems reasonable, she is facing serious competition with Sylveon and Slowbro these days. With Protect, she’s one of the few good defensive answers to Future Sight attacks but Sylveon can do that with better typing in exchange for much less bulk.

Marowak-Alola —> Not easy to rank, I think you need to consider its most threatening set first which is anything in Trick Room. You can’t just go itemless to check this defensively because Shadow Bone will maul stuff like Slowbro. The only flaw is below average defensive typing (but you can still come in on defensive Sylveon and most Cobalion) and the SR weakness and the horrible Speed. Probably A- or B+ would be fair?

Slowbro —> not easy to rank, by itself it’s not a huge threat, not even impossible to overwhelm defensively since the most threatening sets don’t have room for Slack Off (it’s certainly a fine choice but you won’t be as threatening without one of the Psychic stand is my point). But the ability to abuse Regen and Teleport into attackers makes Slowbro pretty hard to kill. It also has plenty of offensive (Zarude, Fighting types, Lycanroc, basically any offensive mon tbh) and defensive partners right now (Chansey, Arcanine) and Volt-Turn-Teleport-Flip are basically at a high point. This probably depends on your philosophy, it’s always hard to rank mons that rely on partners, but since it fits so nicely in the metagame, it’s probably A or A+ for me

Torkoal —> he also benefits from TR, people like Skip The Drip know it can be a threat with Specs although less so with Chansey now. But overall, Torkoal’s fate will probably be tied to Sun which is surprisingly to me not great. It’s surely good still but I don’t see the need to use a relatively risky style (Sun means you need to use mons with little defensively like Charizard, Vileplume, and Shiftry) when you can run super solid mons in more standard bulky offense or voltturn balances (Sylveon, Keldeo, Rotom Wash, Zarude, for example are all super solid mons defensively and offensively and are hard to fit on Sun). I’m not high on Sun, not because I think it’s bad, I just think the opportunity cost is pretty high now, probably somewhere in the B ranks for torkoal

Zarude —> Even though he’s not properly explored yet, he’s one of the reasons why Volt Turn is so strong now. He loves abusing Future Sight from Slowguys to be basically unwallable and can pretty easily ravage most Sticky Web staples if he puts on Boots like Obstagoon, PZ, and MMQ if the disguise is broken (or UTurn to break it). The only couple of issues are some common weaknesses and lack of pure wall breaking power but partners easily fix that, again Slowbro by itself gives it breaking power with Future Sight and a crucial Fighting and Fire resistance. You don’t need to run Incineroar anymore to beat Polteageist which eases building. Despite Volt Turn being common, UTurn to target Zarude isn’t actually common, with only opposing Zarude and Scyther being common strong users, both of which you can speed tie, Incin is easily chipped or Close Combatted. Zarude is definitely an A+ mon for me, in a tier where I don’t think there any S rank mons.
 

Band

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:sm/chansey:
Rank: A

Chansey does Chansey things. Eats every special hit for breakfast and can muscle a good portion of physical hits, bar Choice Band mons that hit hard (Pangoro, Zarude, Scyther, etc) and Fighting STAB from the likes of Terrakion, Cobalion, Mienshao, Keldeo's Secret Sword and even Lycanroc-D's Close Combat does a good chunk, thanks to the Tough Claws boost. Chansey is good, but it's extremely terrified of Knock Off, making so you have to run something on your team that doesn't care about having their item knocked off, like Cobalion and Colbur Berry Palossand. It also doesn't like being statused, since it needs to switch out if it lacks Heal Bell, and if you don't have something else on your team to take those strong hits, it becomes a problem, as it wants to run the newly-buffed Teleport, Soft-Boiled for longevity, Seismic Toss so it doesn't become Taunt fodder, Protect to prevent Future Sight combos and even Stealth Rock, since it can get a lot of opportunities to set them up. It also can't run Heavy-Duty Boots, since it relies so much on it's Eviolite, making Chansey very susceptible to hazard stacking teams. That said, it's still the tier's best special wall, eating every special hit and healing the damage off as it stacks up
 

solonor24

Banned deucer.
:Chansey: ----> B+

Chansey is actually quite average, I don't think its nearly as good as people say it is. It can't really get up rocks reliably against any of the common rockers in the tier, the abundance of the knock off users just pressure it to no end, and the current meta is infested with fighting types that make it difficult to switch in on anything. There's also the fact that the opponent can just indefinitely switch into their teleport mons and gain free momentum on it with little to no cost in the long run. It's also forced into running eviolite; don't even attempt to run boots its so shit. Normal as a defensive typing in the current stage of the metagame could not be any worse for it. It's also very restrictive to build around and cannot be slappable onto any team like blissey was in sm uu. Of course it will forever have a decent niche in being a specially defensive wall, but in a meta infested physical threats that prey on chansey, you have to be very careful if you are gonna consider using it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1182771083

This is one of the only replays i can find since i normally dont save my ladder or test game bodybags anymore, but its just a classic example of chansey being completely useless 90% of the time.

:Zarude: ----> A-/A

Yup, Zarude is quite good. It's typing allows it to switch into celebi and bulky waters indefeintely; if you get burned, you can always run jungle healing to negate that. It can run quite a few sets to an effective degree; boots 3 attack + recovery, scarf, band, or even some tech like chople berry to finesse coballion/terrakion/keldeo. It's coverage is quite nice as well; grass/dark stabs, iron tail, cc, and u turn that essentially allow u to be a threat whenever it comes in and for a good duration of a game. It also has a very nice speed tier and pretty respectable bulk. Looking at the mons in A-/A, it seems like it would be a good fit in one of these categories.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1180666651
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1180770951
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1180476107

:Decidueye: UR----> B-

Decidueye has a niche in this meta; its slept on and should be explored farther. For starters, who is switching in on this boy? Grass/Ghost coverage essentially smack every damn thing in its way bar maybe zarude, which it can just use hurricane for and send that kid to the underworld. It can also be used as a non-passive hazard control mon since it gets defog and roost. Obviously it has some limitations; it's not the fastest and its defensive typing is horseshit. Overall, it has some nice tools at its disposal that can be used effectively on some teams. Some of these include defog, u turn, and good coverage all around. Some reccomandations i can give are boots defog, scarf as a surprise tech, and even banded in some situations. These can all be viable sets.

:Escavalier: B+ --- A-/A
Esca is a mon that fell of a ton during the jirachi meta for obvious reasons. However, it's back to being its old obnoxious self again. This is a pokemon blessed with amazing defensive typing and no counters; u just knock off everything that would normally switch in and then they become compromised long term. With Zarude/Slowbro usage through the roof at the moment, it can just sit on them and just start firing off attacks while your opponents essentially have to run in fear. It just laughs in roserade's face as well; a mon that is on the rise once again. Not really much to say here, its just an amazing glue pokemon that's antimeta and any team could benefit from having
 

Hilomilo

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Here's our first update for the new thread! Thanks for all the engaging discussion this past month, everyone! We'll likely try updating in accordance with either big tiering changes or notable metagame developments in this thread moving forward. Below is everything that shifted around this time. Enjoy!

New Additions
  • :Slowbro: Added to A+: Slowbro has quickly risen to prominence as a premier defensive presence capable of checking huge threats in Terrakion, Cobalion, and Mamoswine. With Regenerator and Teleport, it can prove extremely difficult to overpower and offers plentiful utility to boot, giving it lots of current splashability.
  • :Zarude: Added to A+: Zarude has a ton to offer between its excellent stats, a typing with great offensive and defensive applications, and the movepool needed to bypass checks and effectively pull off several different sets. It's a strong switch-in to bulky waters, the Rotoms, and Celebi and makes the most of its free turns with either pivoting or setup. Zarude has quickly grown into a premier threat, consistently capable of making progress in a match.
  • :Chansey: Added to A: Although it has a fair amount of competition and can be easy to wear down, Chansey is an important defensive presence in the tier capable of stomaching hits from surging threats like Roserade, Rotom-C, and Noivern while also offering several great support tools, though it can struggle combating UU's many great Fighting-types.
  • :Marowak-Alola: Added to A-: Alolan Marowak is among the metagame's most overtly threatening wallbreakers, with practically zero safe switch-ins thanks to its immense power and coverage. Its main hangups lie in its lacking defensive utility and pitiful Speed, making it easy to overwhelm, though the offensive potency it exerts is well worth a spot in the A ranks.
  • :Kingdra: Added to B: No set of Kingdra's has really caught on quite yet but it can manage in the metagame with its Choice Specs and Rain Dance sets. Its typing can be hard to defensively combat while offensive teams particularly fear it in rain late-game, though it's also brought down by competition from other Water- and Dragon-types as well as its iffy power and Speed.
  • :Torkoal: Added to B-: Torkoal has breathed enough life into sun for the play style to be represented in B-. It provides a lot of adequate support between Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, decent bulk, and even Rest if it wants to continuously set Sun throughout a match. Its viability is exclusive to sun teams, however.
  • :Gigalith: from UR to B: Gigalith can somewhat fill in the gap Tyranitar has left, adequately answering to threats like Chandelure, Incineroar, and Noivern while also offering Stealth Rock. Its typing isn't as useful offensively, however, while other rockers like Rhyperior give it stiff competition, justifying a mid-ground rank of B.
  • :Pincurchin::Raichu-Alola: from UR to B-: Electric Terrain has grown into a legitimate play style in which Alolan Raichu can pose a huge threat as a cleaner and Pincurchin can provide several means of decent support. The core is held back by middling defensive utility, however, as well as a good amount of counterplay in the current meta.
  • :Decidueye: from UR to C: It may run into some awkward issues with its typing and bulk, but Decidueye poses a strong threat between its threatening typing, good coverage, and decent set versatility. Boots + Defog has emerged as a good option, though Decidueye can also manage various choice sets thanks to the current strength of Ghost attacks.
  • :Mudsdale: from UR to C: While not as applicable as it was with Jirachi in the tier, Mudsdale can function as a niche Stealth Rock setter capable of checking defining Pokemon like Lycanroc-Dusk, Cobalion, and Terrakion, though the competition it faces from other Ground-types holds it back quite a bit.
Rises
  • :Lycanroc-Dusk: from A+ to S: Lycanroc has developed into UU's fiercest and most centralizing offensive force following Skarmory and Jirachi's departures. It has an amazing Speed tier, the coverage necessary to bypass any of its checks, and strong priority, encompassing everything you'd want in an offensive Pokemon and requiring several checks on each team. It's warped the tier around itself enough to justify a rise to the highest rank possible.
  • :Noivern: from A to S: Noivern has re-established itself as an amazing option in the metagame, offering unparalleled offensive and defensive utility between its typing, Speed, pivoting capabilities, and utility options. It's seen a huge resurgence thanks to its ability to blanket and/or revenge kill most of the tier, which is well worth a return to S.
  • :Doublade: from A- to A: Doublade appreciates its main competition for Steel-types leaving the tier, making it an easier but also more urgent fit. It offers solid offensive tools, such as priority for Pokemon like Polteageist and Starmie, but can also win crucial 1v1s against the likes of Terrakion, Lycanroc, and Celebi with its typing and bulk.
  • :Sylveon: from B to A: Sylveon has massively surged in importance following Jirachi's ban and Hatterene's departure. It exerts one of the tier's fiercest offensive forces with its Choice Specs set, while the bulky set is a premier support option capable of checking Noivern, Keldeo, and many other strong Pokemon.
  • :Rhyperior: from B+ to A-: Rhyperior no longer has to compete with Tyranitar as a rocker and differentiates itself from its competition well with its ability to apply firm offensive pressure and force trades with Terrakion, Lycanroc, and Obstagoon. It also has neat options like Toxic and Megahorn to lure in switch-ins like Celebi, Slowbro, and Zarude.
  • :Rotom-Mow: from B+ to A-: Mowtom's Choice Scarf set has taken off thanks to its ability to revenge kill Pokemon like Terrakion and Keldeo with STAB Leaf Storm. It also has multiple defensive applications between its typing, ability, and utility move pool, making it plenty splashable.
  • :Chandelure: from B to A-: STAB Ghost-type attacks have proven their potency in the metagame, and Chandelure's ability to take on most switch-ins with its secondary STAB has vastly increased its threat level post-Tyranitar rise. It's among the hardest Pokemon to switch into and has plentiful set options to bypass checks with to boot.
  • :Roserade: from B to B+: Roserade has massively benefitted from losing two of its strongest checks in Jirachi and Skarmory, vastly improving its worth as a spiker with good matchups against most removal. Sleep Powder and the general lack of good Steel-types also aids it in being even more difficult to maneuver around.
  • :Sharpedo: from B to B+: Sharpedo has seen solid usage as a great cleaner that is particularly difficult for offense to maneuver around in the late-game. It pairs well with the surging Roserade and exerts an excellent offensive prowess between its excellent STAB combo and the best coverage it could've asked for in Close Combat.
  • :Tentacruel: from B to B+: Tentacruel went from being somewhat underwhelming to actually offering a lot as a utility option, checking Sylveon, Keldeo, and Noivern while providing vital things like Rapid Spin, Toxic Spikes, and Knock Off. It can still overwhelm itself but now has a lot more relevant utility to its name.
  • :Copperajah: from B- to B+: Copperajah has seen a resurgence with several builders now in the market for a solid Steel-type post Jirachi and Skarmory departure. It brings the same tools as it did in the pre-DLC meta between its great bulk, ability to check Pokemon like Sylveon and Celebi, and good power.
  • :Araquanid::Ribombee: from B- to B: Webs has improved enough as an archetype for both setters to see small rises from B-. They each offer individual tools between Araquanid's ability to check Pokemon like Keldeo and Mamoswine and solid wallbreaking presence, and Ribombee's great Speed and solid matchups against Krookodile and various Fighting-types.
  • :Bronzong: from B- to B: Bronzong is another Steel-type with an improved place in the tier following Jirachi and Skarmory's rises from UU. It's a reliable rocks setter that can check several prominent Pokemon, like Sylveon and Noivern, though it's also limited by its passiveness, which can lead several top threats to overwhelm it in time.
  • :Golurk: from C+ to B: Golurk sees a large rise due to the immense offensive pressure it applies and its ability to consistently force trades or even kills in every match. Although it can no longer check Toxtricity, it can still come in on Terrakion while discouraging most anything from switching in thanks to its strong STAB combo and coverage.
  • :Slowbro-Galar: from C to B: Galarbro sees a pretty drastic rise thanks to the large increase in exploration it's seen yielding some pretty strong niches. It can contribute a lot in matches with either its Assault Vest or Calm Mind sets thanks to its unique typing and Regenerator, and is slowly but surely finding more definitive footing in the metagame.
  • :Charizard: from C+ to B-: Charizard is an easier fit with Tyranitar gone and Torkoal now available to supply it with more reliable sun support than Ninetales. Despite Chansey's place in the tier, it's a terrifying wallbreaker, with sun and Solar Power boosting its Fire-type STAB moves to incredible levels.
  • :Gardevoir: from C+ to B-: Gardevoir has a lot more breathing room to carve a niche for itself without Hatterene in the tier. Despite the competition it faces from Sylveon, Gardevoir can provide its own unique perks between Trace, a better Speed tier, and Psychic STAB all giving it fair applications of its own. Choice Scarf sets have also picked up some recent steam, giving it decent set flexibility.
  • :Tsareena: from C+ to B-: C+ was understating Tsareena's usability, with its typing and Rapid Spin allowing it to match up well against hazard setters like Krookodile and its key access to utility options such as Knock Off and U-turn. Triple Axel is also a great tool, further restricting Tsareena's defensive counterplay if fitted.
  • :shiftry: from C to C+: Shiftry's niche is exclusive to sun, though because the archetype has improved upon Torkoal's entry to the tier, it can now apply itself more easily while also having great synergy with Charizard.
  • :Virizion: from C to C+: Virizion has taken off as a threatening mixed wallbreaker with fair defensive utility. Its combined abilities to overwhelm paper checks and come in on Pokemon like Zarude and Krookodile gives it fair applications that could be worth rising more in the future, though it still does struggle from competition with other Fighting-types and its occasionally middling power.
  • :Xatu: from C- to C: Xatu is rising just a bit to reflect its improved presence in the tier as the only viable Pokemon with Magic Bounce now that Hatterene's gone. It still doesn't see much usage but is still a decent utility option nonetheless.
Drops
  • :Krookodile: from A+ to A: While still a top notch pick for role compression, Krookodile doesn't fit super well in A+ given its shaky matchup against most removers, like Rotom-W and Galarian Weezing. UU is also full of fast Fighting-types capable of blowing past it, justifying a small drop.
  • :Slowking: from A+ to A-: Slowking's opportunity cost has been compromised by the addition of Slowbro to the tier, while Sylveon and Chansey also compete with it in various scenarios. It still has its uses with its exceptional special bulk but is no longer a premier option or super easy fit.
  • :Palossand: from A- to B+: Despite its good matchups against Terrakion and Lycanroc, Palossand suffers from how passive it is, as well as the presences of Ground-types that often present better tools overall, such as Krookodile and the surging Rhyperior, which has hurt the sand castle's recent applicability.
  • :Darmanitan: from B to B-: Darmanitan has taken a hit as Pokemon like Slowbro and Rhyperior have surged and its pitiful defensive utility has made other options for offensive Fire-types better choices in most cases. It still has its uses but usually only fits well on more offensive builds these days.
  • :Druddigon: from B to B-: Druddigon can no longer partner well with Hatterene and also can't chip Jirachi down any longer, which alongside shaky matchups against top tiers has taken away from its main applications in the metagame. It still offers unique tools such as Rough Skin and Glare but is no longer as easy or necessary a fit.
  • :Indeedee: from B to B-: Expanding Force isn't as easy for Indeedee to capitalize on with more established Dark-types in the metagame, including Zarude and Krookodile. It's still a threatening wallbreaker but is easier to check now and presents basically zero defensive applicability.
  • :Cloyster: from B to C+: Cloyster has struggled to make a splash with its poor typing and special bulk restricting its opportunities for setup, as well as the fair amount of offensive and defensive responses well integrated within the metagame. All of this makes it harder to justify using Cloyster over other setup sweepers and Water-types.
  • :Flygon: from C+ to C: Far worse as a Choice Scarf user with plentiful better options in the meta, and barely any niche outside of this given its unremarkable typing and middling stats compared to other Dragon- and Ground-types.
  • :Magneton: from B to UR: Magneton's uses have dramatically fallen off following Skarmory's rise to UU. It can't reliably trap any relevant Steel-type and is entirely outclassed outside of its irrelevant Magnet Pull niche by UU's other Electric-types. Its niche was entirely contingent on Skarmory existing, and it now has really nothing to its name which is reflected by being blown off the map entirely.
  • :Blastoise: from C to UR: Blastoise has absolutely no reason to be used with far better options for both setup sweepers and entry hazard removers in the tier. It simply doesn't do anything better than other Pokemon that are available.
  • :Poliwrath::Sirfetch:Vaporeon: from C- to UR: Poliwrath doesn't have a niche in the tier without Crawdaunt around, Sirfetch'd is pretty impossible to justify over other Fighting-types that offer better typings and Speed tiers despite its good power, and Vaporeon simply doesn't provide enough over other bulky Water-types or special walls to justify usage. This is all grounds to unrank these three from C-.
 
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Hilomilo

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Discussion Points
Sylveon A -> A+: Sylveon has hugely risen to prominence as its main competition and strongest checks have recently left the tier. It has a lot to offer between its fantastic Specs and cleric sets, which could together allow its potency and applicability to be best reflected in A+, though some strong answers to Sylveon, including Escavalier, Copperajah, Tentacruel, and Chansey, are on the come-up, while its iffy Speed and Defense can pretty significantly hamper it at times.
Escavalier B+ -> A-: Escavalier can manage more easily in the meta without having to compete with Skarmory and Jirachi for a slot. It offers a lot between its amazing coverage, power, and key ability to answer to Pokemon like Sylveon, Celebi, and Roserade, though it can suffer from slightly iffy matchups against a few top tier threats and the healthy competition it sees from the likes of Copperajah, Doublade, and Bronzong.
Heliolisk B+ -> A-: Boots Heliolisk has really grown as an option in the metagame with a lot of great teambuilding tools, such as its pivoting capabilities, Ghost- and Water-type immunities, coverage to bypass the tier's Ground-types, and a key Speed tier that importantly puts it above Terrakion, Keldeo, and Mienshao among other threats. Chansey's unbanning and its occasionally middling power and defensive utility can hold it back, though whether its recent exploration is worth a rise into the A ranks is a worthy discussion topic.
Porygon-Z B+ -> B: Porygon-Z has struggled to make a strong impact in the tier largely because of its inability to offer anything defensively. Its merely decent Speed tier also leaves it at risk of being KO'd by several faster top threats. It can offer teams a fair amount of options between its many options for sets, however, with Choice sets particularly allowing it to abuse Trick.
Roserade B+ -> A-: Roserade is surging again in a metagame without many sturdy switch-ins to its STABs + Spikes and Sleep Powder. It can make progress with nearly every free turn it acquires and can take on several prominent Pokemon, including Keldeo, Slowbro, and Rotom-W. However, it does now exist in a less convenient Speed tier for the meta which pairs poorly with its pitiful Defense, and many Steel-types capable of pivoting into it are now reclaiming spots in the metagame after Jirachi and Skarmory have left.
Dragalge B -> B+: Dragalge has a lot of useful teambuilding perks at its disposal, including Toxic Spikes, pivoting, solid wallbreaking potential, and a very relevant defensive typing that can aid it in matchups against Keldeo, either Rotom form, and Roserade. Its stat spread can make it a little awkward to effectively utilize and prevent from being worn down, though its utility is particularly notable at this stage of the metagame.
Klefki B- -> B: Klefki hasn't really taken off in this metagame but can provide a fair amount as one of few good Steel-types currently, checking the likes of Zarude, Roserade, and Obstagoon while providing solid utility with Prankster Spikes and Thunder Wave. Magnet Rise is also a solid option for it to maneuver around several Ground-types, though Klefki does still struggle from its slightly middling bulk only allowing it to soft check most threats, as well as the tier's other relevant Steel-types having their own applications.
Milotic B- -> C+: Once one of tier's clearest staples, Milotic is in the discussion for a drop due to the absolutely immense competition it's faced with from other Water-types. Slowbro, Rotom-W, Gastrodon, and Mantine all offer highly useful tools in the metagame that Milotic simply can't claim, but it can separate itself from its competitors with its access to both one-turn recovery and Haze, as well as options like Competitive and Imprison, which could be enough to stay afloat in the B ranks.
 
I’m sad I still think Druddigon has a good enough niche as a rocks para spreader that has decent bulk and a good ability in rough skin plus possible helmet.
 

Zarude —> Even though he’s not properly explored yet, he’s one of the reasons why Volt Turn is so strong now. He loves abusing Future Sight from Slowguys to be basically unwallable and can pretty easily ravage most Sticky Web staples if he puts on Boots like Obstagoon, PZ, and MMQ if the disguise is broken (or UTurn to break it). The only couple of issues are some common weaknesses and lack of pure wall breaking power but partners easily fix that, again Slowbro by itself gives it breaking power with Future Sight and a crucial Fighting and Fire resistance. You don’t need to run Incineroar anymore to beat Polteageist which eases building. Despite Volt Turn being common, UTurn to target Zarude isn’t actually common, with only opposing Zarude and Scyther being common strong users, both of which you can speed tie, Incin is easily chipped or Close Combatted. Zarude is definitely an A+ mon for me, in a tier where I don’t think there any S rank mons.
I don't know if I'm allowed to ask, but do you have any replays of Future Sight making Zarude "unwallable"? I thought Future Sight was a very crappy Gen 2 move that is pretty much never used over simply clicking Psychic two times. Finding it suddenly useful is a huge surprise to me, and I wanna get in on the action!
 
I don't know if I'm allowed to ask, but do you have any replays of Future Sight making Zarude "unwallable"? I thought Future Sight was a very crappy Gen 2 move that is pretty much never used over simply clicking Psychic two times. Finding it suddenly useful is a huge surprise to me, and I wanna get in on the action!
While I don't have a replay which shows how good is Future Sight, I can still explain why it's better than in previous generations. 8th gen had a big change which is Teleport. It was useless before but now it allows the Pokemon which uses it to switch with -6 priority. Alongside Future Sight, it allows some Pokemon like Slowbro or Slowking to use Future Sight, then leave the field with -6 priority (so they basically sponge opponents hits) and bring a teammate on the field which can pressure the opponent even more since next turn Future Sight will hit them. This allows Pokémon like Fighting-types or Zarude to be really good alongside Future Sight.

Basically Future Sight prevent the opponent to bring Weezing-G on Zarude because it will drops to Future Sight otherwise. Same applies to Fighting-types which prevent Dark-types to come freely on the field to sponge Future Sight thanks to their typing.
 
I think Tangela deserves a bump in the rankings. After reviewing the entire viability rankings list, I do not see a single pokemon on the list that can switch into Lycanroc 100% safely besides Tangela. Slowbro takes a Crunch at over 50%. Weezing is in danger of Iron Head or Psychic Fangs. The Rotoms take a lot of damage from most attacks and will wear down more quickly. Sylveon takes a lot from either Stone Edge or Iron Head. Most other things take big damage from a Close Combat. Even Druddigon, Quagsire, and Milotic at max defense are a near 2HKO with unboosted Close Combat. Maybe max defense Mudsdale can do alright, but is that worth it?

Nothing else on the list can really take two hits besides Tangela, so it's basically a guessing game. And Tangela can switch out to heal afterwards. I am not saying we should rank Tangela based entirely on how it counters one pokemon, but given the prevalence of Lycanroc on many many teams, and the ability of Tangela to totally shut it down, I think it deserves higher than a C+ ranking. It also shuts down things like Terrakion, but so do many other pokemon like Palossand. And it can pressure things like Slowbro and Rotom-W, despite it not being very offensive. But the big thing here is the ability to stand toe to toe with Lycanroc and win. I would put it at least at B+, it works as good as or better than the tanky stuff already there.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
I don't know if I'm allowed to ask, but do you have any replays of Future Sight making Zarude "unwallable"? I thought Future Sight was a very crappy Gen 2 move that is pretty much never used over simply clicking Psychic two times. Finding it suddenly useful is a huge surprise to me, and I wanna get in on the action!

Do I have replays of me draining the Elo out of random 1500s on the ladder? I thought you'd never ask!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure here's one:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1183046501

So you can see my opponent is using a stall team - likely WITHOUT Protect Chansey which will be important to note. Look at turn 8. Normally he would be able to go Weezing to wall the Zarude. However, he's forced to stay in with Mantine because the Future Sight will easily KO the Weezing and it's too risky to switch in a Chansey or Reuniclus in on Zarude. The burn doesn't save him because Power Whip does so much damage (Roosting was better on turn 8 for this reason) and my exquisite prediction on turn 10 finishes his Mantine off.

Again on turn 28, after healing up my team with Sylveon, I'm able to launch another Future Sight Zarude attack which keeps Reuniclus weakened and on turn 32, I keep up the attacks with more predictions to keep Chansey low. Notice how on turn 45, Zarude is not the only abuserof Future Sight, I can easily use Golurk too to start another offensive when my position is clearly extremely good already.

Anyways that answers your question.
 

Estarossa

moo?
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C&C Leader
Gonna cover one nomination that isn't on Discussion points, but that received quite a bit of support from some voters in this last vote, but otherwise just going to discuss some of the Discussion points here.

:virizion: C+ -> B

Virizion benefitted quite a bit from shifts, losing its main counter in Skarmory and adding another extremely relevant Pokemon in Zarude to the list of Pokemon it checks with its unique typing. Its consistency as a check to Pokemon like Rotom-W/C, Krookodile, Zarude, and Rhyperior is fantastic and gives it massively defensive utility that is highly valuable, while its impressive longevity and plenty of opportunities to come in make it a threat that can consistently break holes in the opposing team and punish offensive checks like Noivern and Chandelure with its coverage, easily capable of breaking through Weezing-Galar unlike other grass types like Zarude. Being a mixed breaker is extremely valuable too in letting it break through Weezing and being far less scared of burns than its Zarude and its other Fighting-brethren, while being able to shred through the ever popular Slowbro in a single hit.

The rise in popularity of Glowbro is certainly an issue for virizion, which can easily use it for set up or future sight opportunities and infinitely wall it with regenerator, but a further rise would more accurately reflect Virizion's place in the metagame as an extremely dangerous wallbreaker that can be fairly easy to slot into teams due to its unique defensive properties and cannot be easily ignored in the teambuilder.


:roserade:B+ -> A- Agree

As Hilo stated, Roserade benefitted an absurd amount from Jirachi and and Skarmory leaving. Its not just a Spikes bot that can cripple Jirachi for teammates with Stun Spore anymore, but an offensive threat in its own right again, and its moveslot has been fairly opened up to run Sleep Powder to cripple counters like Galarbro again by Jirachi leaving. Spikes offenses in general are really good right now, and Roserade has an incredible matchup versus most removers and Sleep Powder to cripple Noivern, and with Sylveon becoming one of the most important mons in the tier again Sylveon's ability to provide an offensive check to it is also very valuable to more offensive teams. Counters like Galarbro and Copperajah are rising in popularity but are still thraetened greatly by Sleep Powder, but the most important one in Escavalier is still an awkward Pokemon to fit atm with its Sylveon issues and still gives free spikes. A rise is very appropriate to reflect its massively improved position in the current metagame.


:sylveon: A -> A+ Agree

With Jirachi going, Sylveon was inevitbly going to be opened up as a far more splashable and effective Pokemon. With Noivern being back to its former glories and the lack of solid answers we have to it for more offensive teams, Sylveon is an absolutely incredibly splashable Pokemon, that can fit on so many teams between Specs sets having incredible wallbreaking potential combined with some defensive utility and Wish sets being able to support rising Pokemon like Doublade incredibly, and provide fantastic defensive utility in checking threats like Noivern / Lycanroc / Keldeo.

Sylveon isn't without its issues in the current metagame, for instance Galarian Slowbro has risen to quite some popularity as the single best answer to it we have, but this speaks volumes to just how much Sylveon shapes teambuilding atm. Most of its other checks are all either offensive at best: Cobalion/Doublade/Various powerful physical wallbreakers, extremely vulnerable to coverage moves especially from offensive sets: Roserade / Escav, or in Rajah's case just not difficult to wear down through spikes for offensive sets, and this ends up often either forcing checks to be doubled down upon or results in teams that have to play very carefully around sylveon and can't let it in too freely.

The splashability of Sylveon and the way in which it molds teambuilding atm definitely reflects it as being suitable for A+, reflecting that while it does have some issues in the current metagame and can be worn down between momentum / hazards / no reliable recovery, its still an incredibly impactful pokemon that can fit on most teams easily.


:milotic: B- -> C+ Strongly Disagree

Once one of tier's clearest staples, Milotic is in the discussion for a drop due to the absolutely immense competition it's faced with from other Water-types. Slowbro, Rotom-W, Gastrodon, and Mantine all offer highly useful tools in the metagame that Milotic simply can't claim, but it can separate itself from its competitors with its access to both one-turn recovery and Haze, as well as options like Competitive and Imprison, which could be enough to stay afloat in the B ranks.
I feel this fundamentally fails to reflect enough on Milotic's real niche, and focuses far too much on the defensive set, which this is all very true of and is rather niche. Competitive Milotic, however, is a great tool to entry hazard stacking offensive teams, and the ability to gain all the useful defensive utility that a bulky water-type with recovery does while still having plenty of offensive presence especially through its ability is amazing. In particular being a permanent fantastic counter to Noivern is so nice for these teams, which can usually only run relatively soft checks like Rhyperior or offenisve Sylveon which easily get 2HKO'd with not much chip, and with Noivern picking up as a Defogger again lately due to Roserade this is even more useful.

Keeping Milotic at B- rank is the most appropriate thing atm for me. Competitive sets have benefitted from meta shifts in Roserade becoming better, Kyurem leaving, and Defog Noivern/Weezing becoming more popular removers once again, but as it currently stands it would be prudent to see more usage of these sets in the form of succesful ladder teams / rmts / samples / tour games before trying to make any claims about ever moving it up.


:klefki: B- -> B
Agree

Klefki has a solid well defined niche over Roserade as a spiker, thanks to having one of the single best typings in the game and plenty of disruption tools to make up for its worse matchups versus certain removers. Its ability to provide simultaneous checks to Pokemon like Boots Zarude and Noivern can be fantastic for offensive teams which would otherwise have issues, and it also matches up much better vs Noivern as a remover than other Spikers like Heracross/Roserade, while Prankster Thunder Wave is an incredible tool to help deal with some offensive threats that might otherwise get out of hand like Lycanroc.

Ive played around with some other techs in the last slot than the ones Hilo mentioned, Switcheroo is a fun one to use especially to just perma cripple stuff like Washtom/Tenta, the latter of which is a big pain otherwise, and serve as an emergency check to some stuff like CM Sylv/Glowbro. Toxic definitely is the go to 4th though, but its a fairly flexible slot depending on your teams weaknesses. While Klefki has 4mss, and struggles a lot to handle washtom/tenta as removers compared to Rose, its defensive utility and paralysis support give it a well enough defined niche on offensive teams to make it a worthwhile consideration and worthy of a small rise.



:escavalier: B+ -> A- Disagree Mildly

Escavalier being the single best answer to Celebi and Roserade that exists is extremely valuable, and its enough of an offensive threat to put a lot of pressure on Pokemon like Noivern for teammates. I personally, however, view it as honestly quite awkward to fit onto teams however as a Steel-type that can't handle Sylveon very well at all, while its fellow Steel-type brethren that sit in a similar boat with Sylveon like Cobalion and Doublade are far more splashable, with Coba at least offensively checking it. This can kind of force very specific structures that are either quite weak to Sylveon on the defensive side (and by extension Gardevoir) when stacking one of the aforementioned steels with escav or rely on using something like a Slowbro-Galar / Talonflame to shore up the Sylveon matchup quite a bit.

I'm not really bothered too much by the prospect of Escavalier rising as its niche with Celebi and Roserade is highly valuable, while its still a potent enough Pokemon that can take put a lot of pressure on opposing teams, but Pokemon like Copperajah / Slowbro-Galar tend to handle Roserade just as well once something has been Sleep Foddered and have much better Fairy matchups and thus feel a bit easier to fit onto teams in general, while most teams will usually have at least a Noivern too making Celebi struggle with these combinations realistically even if it has the correct 4th move. I feel that generally the restrictiveness in how easily you can put an Escavalier onto a team makes A- a little generous right now.


:heliolisk: B+ -> A- Agree

Won't make the post on this one very long since I posted about it last time too. Boots sets are still highly valuable with Webs being just as good as ever and Mimikyu being even better in the absense of Skarmory. Its pivoting capabilities are still incredibly potent, and it also benefits from Spikes being better atm to help pressure its switch ins. Losing Pokemon like Kyurem and Tyranitar in shifts was massive for it, and while the rise of Celebi and freeing of Chansey are issues it still just generates momentum off them for other offensive teammates.
 
:Golurk: B -> B + / A-
Golurk sitting in B isn’t sitting right with me not only is it better than everything in B tier but its shitty rip off version of it is sitting in A- tier
Golurk has a god-like typing both offensively and defensively, as it can hit everything in the tier for neutral damage with its stab moves which are very powerful, while also having amazing coverage to hit everything in the tier and most of its switchins ex heat crash, dynamic punch, and ice punch. While also having its amazing coverage it has many different options of which sets it can run like 4 attack, sub, rock polish, and rocks while also running many items with it such as av, life orb, colbur, spell tag, choice band and ig even metronome could work. The defensive typing allows you to check things like gweez terrak and lycan (with colbur), chansey (won’t like toxic tho) which are some of the best mons in the tier.
Golurk got 6 kills in this replay I dont see alowak doing this
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1181282296-ukpq2pwnw80fog7h0aenep0n4pzhfuspw

:Marowak-Alola: A- -> B
Golurk can do all of this while alowak can do what? Its typing is pretty bad defensively, it does hit hard but once you knock off its item all that hard hitting is gone, weak to rocks has no coverage (fun fact milktank can come in almost freely on this mon) It’s really predictable because it only has 1 set being sd 3attack or 2 if you count subsd which I haven’t seen be used. While it's main set sd cant even be clicked a lot due to the fact that its very slow but its also easily revenged. Even then alowak needs some support being tr to really do something as a breaker in games. From terrible typing, terrible speed, easily being revenged and needing alot of support I think this mon is really overhyped and definitely doesn’t deserve the A- tier.
This is a replay of it doing practically nothing all game and it got easily revenged (draco was a low roll)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1182328590
 
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Discussion Points
Sylveon A -> A+: Sylveon has hugely risen to prominence as its main competition and strongest checks have recently left the tier. It has a lot to offer between its fantastic Specs and cleric sets, which could together allow its potency and applicability to be best reflected in A+, though some strong answers to Sylveon, including Escavalier, Copperajah, Tentacruel, and Chansey, are on the come-up, while its iffy Speed and Defense can pretty significantly hamper it at times.
Escavalier B+ -> A-: Escavalier can manage more easily in the meta without having to compete with Skarmory and Jirachi for a slot. It offers a lot between its amazing coverage, power, and key ability to answer to Pokemon like Sylveon, Celebi, and Roserade, though it can suffer from slightly iffy matchups against a few top tier threats and the healthy competition it sees from the likes of Copperajah, Doublade, and Bronzong.
Sylveon A -> A+: Agree
I’ve been laddering a fair bit lately and I’ve been using Specs Sylv. Oh boy, lemme tell you, this thing takes LIVES. If it’s not grabbing OHKOs it’s 2HKOing or 3HKOing even dedicated walls. It hits like a truck. Its speed tier is definitely lacking and its physical defenses mean that it can often fold to some of the tier’s powerful physical attackers, if it doesn’t have any investment or is at lower health. In that regard, however, Sylveon also has a strong niche as an offensive Cleric, capable of providing wish support both for itself and its teammates, scouting opponents’ potential choice locks with protect, etc. Sylveon is just in such a good place in the meta right now, and I definitely agree that it deserves a rise. A well played Sylveon can just dent teams, and is usually making some form of progress when it’s on the field. It definitely deserves a rise to A+.

Escavalier B+ -> A-: Agree
I would even go a little further and push Escavalier up to A. Probably not A+, but I think it could sit pretty in A. I haven’t been playing too much with Esca, personally, but UU as a meta is very much in a position where the tier is positively strapped for good steel types outside of Coba and Raja (and the occasional Bronzong/Klefki). Between its incredible typing, solid physical bulk, and respectable offensive presence, Esca is an important Pokémon in UU due to its ability to blanket check notable Pokémon in the tier. In addition to Roserade and Celebi, as mentioned by Hilomilo up above, it is also notably able to threaten out Zarude. Esca is able to pick up clean OHKOs on the majority of Zarude sets, and more often than not is able to pick up an OHKO on +1 def 252 EV def Bulk Up Zarude (0 Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. +1 0 HP / 252 Def Zarude: 340-408 (96.8 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO) even UNINVESTED. Esca is also able to wall non-flamethrower Noivern and can threaten Sylveon. It should be noted, however, that many Specs Sylveon sets run Mystical Fire to take care of steel types, which, needless to say, obliterates Esca. Overall though, I definitely think Escavalier is in a position where it deserves a rise. I think A- could work fine, but I honestly feel that it undercuts its viability a little bit. I think A works just fine.

As for the other mons that Hilomilo mentioned, I don’t have a ton of experience with them and can’t really speak on them. Thanks for reading!
 
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Galvantula for C

If his fellow web setters get to be B rank, I see no justification for Spider bro not to get to be C rank.

Galvantula @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Timid Nature
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Sticky Web
- Bug Buzz
- Thunder
- Volt Switch

This is the set I run. Bulk lets it avoid the OHKO from Zarude (even Banded has only a tiny chance to OHKO with Lariat) and Noivern amongst other things. It has about a 40% chance to solo Noivern by paralysing it with Thunder for a 2HKO, but you can also just Thunder it as it defogs your webs then finish it off next round.

Generally sets up Webs early on then serves as a revenge killer and pivot throughout the game. A really solid and under rated pokemon with a very nice speed tier.

Espeon narrowly avoids dying to Bug Buzz without max SAtk sadly, but you OHKO Xatu with Thunder.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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UU Leader
Gonna make a post with my own noms later but I'm too lazy to do that rn so here are my thoughts on the discussion points.

Sylveon A -> A+: Not yet. While I agree that the pride kitten has obviously gotten significantly better with Jirachi leaving the tier, I think A -> A+ is a kneejerk reaction and not actually reflective of Sylveon's true viability. Yes, it's got quite a few effective sets in the current meta and yes, it's very good, but I don't see it on the same level of reliability or splashability as Pokemon like Rotom-W and Zarude. It's not really bulky enough to reliably check Pokemon it wants to handle (Keldeo, Zarude, Terrakion) and it faces massive competition from the also-excellent Galarian Weezing, which has much higher physical bulk that's favoured more in this meta. Obviously it's as good as Noivern counters get and it's pretty strong, but I'd like to see the meta settle before bumping it back up to A+, it's just too soon for such a large jump.

Escavalier B+ -> A-:
Yeah. It's currently one of our more effective Steels and it packs a punch on top of being deceptively bulky. Trends like Sylveon not running Mystical Fire, Noivern occasionally dropping Flamethrower etc. are great for it, and I think a physically defensive set is excellent atm bc it handles stuff like Lycanroc way easier. CB is also unholy and has no switchins. Good mon that should rise a bit now that its main competition is gone.

Heliolisk B+ -> A-: I'm not even explaining this one lmao you all know I simp for the lizard

Porygon-Z B+ -> B: Sure. This thing is actually incredibly lethal which I don't think people give it enough credit for, but the main issue is actually fitting it on teams. It's pretty impossible to have PZ be a natural fit without wanting to build around it so you HAVE to choose to do that, and even then it's got really solid checks in Gigalith/Rhyperior/Cobalion/Doublade/other normal resists that stop it from spamming Tri Attack which is rly the only move worth clicking. It's stupid strong and still a good breaker but it's pretty hard to justify over stuff like Sylveon and Heliolisk.

Roserade B+ -> A-: Yes please this mon is absolutely bonkers and all of its counters aren't even counters bc it just gets spikes up on them and nothing in this tier does a good job at removing hazards so you're just left there with its broken ass spikes and there's NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. On the plus side we actually have switch-ins not named Escavalier now so it doesn't get spikes up AND kill everything, but it should still rise.

Dragalge B -> B+: Idk. I get the hype around this mon but I feel like I just never see it do anything other than Draco something, fail to kill it and then die. Being a Rose counter and Rotom counter in one slot is unique to it tho and tspikes are broken as hell so maybe? Idk

Klefki B- -> B: Absolutely. If you've been reading this far then you'll probably realise that I think spikes are broken as hell rn. Now imagine a Steel type that beats Zarude and Obstagoon AND gets em up AND has priority on its up AND it twaves all your shit and makes you wish you weren't playing the game. Congratulations, you've met Klefki. Klefki's really really annoying to face and is a great check to plenty of top-tier Pokemon like Zarude, Sylveon and Roserade and is just hard as hell to keep down. I was a keys hater for a long time but I think it's finally showing its worth and should rise to B, even B+ tbh.

Milotic B- -> C+: No way. Nothing instills fear like clicking Parting Shot and seeing a +3 Milotic staring you down. Competitive is unironically decent on some teams and the defensive set is still surprisingly solid despite competition from the Slowtwins; Flip Turn + Boots is a great buff that I think more people should look into, it seriously makes this thing stupid annoying to deal with bc it's so fat and gets so much momentum instead of sucking it. Great Noivern answer even with a physically defensive spread which is something Slowbro can't boast, and unlike Slowking it's really physically bulky while still retaining all of the spdef in the world. If anything this should be rising a little, it's way better than ppl give it credit for.
 

Band

scatters things often
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Roserade B+ -> A-/A: Strongly Agree. I think this replay here can ilustrate how much pressure Roserade is able to put on the opposing team with Sleep Powder and Spikes. Being able to pressure some common defoggers and spinners like Rotom-W/C, Tsareena and Starmie is HUGE for a spiker, since spikes are so good rn with Skarm and Hatt leaving. It also scares Celebi if it wants to come in on Sleep Powder, due to Roserade's Poison STAB. The only shaky aspect of Roserade is Sleep Powder's horrible accuracy, but even then it's higher than Hurricane's lol. yes, i lost, but Rose still did very well.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1185092013-z40lqha5mh0u964ss2qff3qyv9vgx3vpw


Golurk B -> B: Not one of the discussion points, but Golurk is an incredible breaker and rocker. It's ability to come in on metagame staples like Coba and Terrak is greatly appreciated, because it either bops the two with EQ or sets up rocks. You also don't let Slowbro in due to Ghost STAB and you threaten Noivern with Ice Punch. It's breaking power is absurd, but it's middling defensive stats and speed hold it back. I think B is a good place for it.
 
:ss/centiskorch:
C- -> C

I don't think a single person has looked at this pokemon since even before DLC. While it still does most of the same things it did back then, I think it's at least 1 sub-rank better due to abusing the following metagame trends:
  • Slowtwins being the most common bulky waters on builds these days.
  • SD Cobalion opting for Megahorn as opposed to Stone Edge.
  • Sylveon becoming ever so present in the metagame.
  • Escavilier returning to prominence, as well as Roserade.
While it still has plenty of issues that hold it back, such as being slow as heck and having about as much defense as a cardboard box (which means Sylveon's CS Psyshock will 2HKO around 30% of the time from full), these recent metagame trends are beneficial for Centiskorch. I also want to throw a new set out there that I think is pretty cool on paper and in practice.

Centiskorch @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 44 SpD / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fire Lash
- Knock Off
- Protect
- Will-O-Wisp / Power Whip

This set focuses more on Centiskorch's defensive attributes, notably walling all non-specs Sylveon, as well as checking pokemon like Doublade, Lucario (special sets only, +2 Espeed destroys you), Cobalion, and other offensive Steel and Fairy types. This set pairs really well with pokemon like Slowbro and Virizion, which can take Rock attacks, as well as handle more physically-oriented sets. Flame Body could also be an option for an ability, but I prefer having the immunity to Mystical Fire. You could also run an alternative spread of 252 HP / 44 Def / 36 SpD / 176 Spe to outrun max speed neutral natured based 60's and also avoids the 2HKO from any of Specs Sylveon's moves. The issue with this spread, however, is that you lose out on outrunning Bisharp, which can basically cripple you with a high powered Knock Off.

tl;dr - Centi is better, try defensive variants, raise it a subrank. Thanks for reading!
 

scorbunnys

Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Hi, i wanna share my thoughts about the VR, i hope that my post has sense and feel free to correct me!
The perfect VR imo:
S Rank
Lycanroc-Dusk
Noivern

A+ Rank
Keldeo
Mimikyu
Rotom-W
Slowbro
Sylveon
Terrakion
Zarude

A Rank
Cobalion
Doublade
Krookodile
Mienshao
Obstagoon
Weezing-Galar

A- Rank
Bisharp
Celebi
Chandelure
Chansey
Escavalier
Heracross
Incineroar
Mamoswine
Marowak-Alola
Reuniclus
Rhyperior
Roserade

Rotom-C
Slowking
Starmie

B+ Rank
Copperajah
Grimmsnarl
Heliolisk
Palossand
Polteageist
Porygon-Z
Scyther
Sharpedo
Talonflame
Tentacruel

B Rank
Araquanid
Barraskewda
Bronzong
Dragalge
Gastrodon
Gigalith
Golurk
Kingdra
Klefki
Ribombee
Seismitoad
Slowbro-Galar
Virizion


B- Rank
Arcanine
Charizard
Darmanitan
Druddigon
Gardevoir
Golisopod
Indeedee
Jellicent
Lucario
Mantine
Pangoro
Pincurchin
Raichu-Alola
Torkoal
Tsareena
Umbreon

C+ Rank
Cloyster
Ninetales
Porygon2
Quagsire
Shiftry
Tangela

C Rank
Barbaracle
Bewear
Decidueye
Flygon
Goodra
Mudsdale
Salazzle
Toxicroak
Xatu

C- Rank
Centiskorch
Froslass
Linoone
Slurpuff
Vileplume

Rises:
C+ -> B: Great role compression rn, Checking Keldeo + Krookodile + Rotom Wash / Mow + Heliolisk + Keldeo + Zarude + Slow Pair and hit a lot of stuff in the actual meta, Virizion can do all in one slot, which makes Virizion a really good fit in some teams.
Altough Virizion is not perfect, has a lot of checks and counters still and is weak to Sylveon and Noivern, which is without a doubt a bad defect, for this i feel that could be B.

1600389859762.png
B
-> B+: I feel that Talonflame is underrated rn, with a lot of utility in form to Defog, U-Turn and Will-O-Wisp can offer a lot of stuff for the team and can act as a counter or check for stuff like Cobalion (without stone edge ofc, altough now i see more megahorn), Sylveon and Roserade in one slot, also has a nice ground inmunity, really nice mon and splashable thing, rise it a subrank.

A -> A+: While it was already covered by Estarossa, Hilomilo and thundergoos, I feel this is worth nominating and I think it deserves to go up because it can be great both defensively and offensively, I will explain each set.
Specs: Thanks to Jirachi's ban and the departure of Toxtricity and Hatterene, Specs Sylveon became a very imposing offensive threat that has very few reliable switch ins outside of Chansey, Copperajah and AV Reuniclus (don't say that Escavalier is a good switch in when it is destroyed by Mystical Fire)
Wish: Decent offensive potential + Great check from Noivern / Keldeo / Krookodile + Cleric Support all in one slot, this is really great for a utility pokemon
Calm Mind + Chesto Berry: It's a good setup sweeper that allows Sylveon to have a better match up against Chansey, forcing her to use Teleport and letting Sylveon boost or recover with Rest, which is great as it can act as a late game cleaner vs the opponent's walls under spikes or sticky webs teams.

https://pokepast.es/889511c0a9d375e0
https://pokepast.es/471ffac40bc2b04a
Also, for finish the note, Sylveon impacts a lot on the teambuilding, because the teams are forced to run niche poisons or Chansey, for this sylveon deserves to rise, altough S could be a scretch because the meta adapts well to Sylveon and has some things that makes sylveon below S, but A+ is fine imo, is a offensive and defensive threat.

1600389838511.png
C+
-> B-: Is still a bit marginal, but recently, Arcanine has seeing a usage in some tours as a good Sylveon, Zarude, Bisharp and Mimikyu counter in one slot that offers some things like teleport and intimidate, nice thing mainly in balanced teams, i think dog could fit well in B- with Druddigon and stuff.

Drops:
1600360451547.png
A -> A-: The meta trends are not favorable for Chansey, with Sylveon Specs usually paired with Cobalion, Virizion rising, Roserade Spikes surging and Zarude being so common, Chansey is overwhelmed rn.
Has another problem too and is that with too much knock off, Chansey can't perform too much well because needs a eviolite or needs the Heavy Duty Boots (in some offensive teams, Chansey HDB is used).
Then she have the issue to be too much passive, Seismic Toss + Toxic is not enough to deal with a lot of bulky mons like Zarude or Keldeo, i just think that the meta is pretty bad for Chansey, altough is still a stall staple, is not enough for A and needs to drop to A-.


Agree with:
1600396938821.png
B+ -> A-
1600397007194.png
B+ -> A-
1600399196715.png
B- -> B
 
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I’ve been finding Golisopod surprisingly good lately.

First Impression revenge kills a lot of the meta, like Mowtom, Zarude, Krookodile and even Lycanroc after marginal chip. The Slow twins get 2HKOd by First Impression and Leech Life, so can’t switch in comfortably. It handles Mamo just like it did pre-ban and its Ground-type resistance is very handy to pair with the many Poison types being good right now.

Really enjoying it.
 

Zephyri

put on your headphones and burn my city
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Hi! I'm pretty new to this community, and was introduced to here because of the lycanroc suspect test, for which i tried to get reqs (unfort that didn't work out). Nevertheless, I feel like i've learned a lot about the meta through that experience, and want to propose what might some controversial noms:

:slowbro-galar: to A/A-

With Sylveon steadily increasing in viability, I feel like it's best counter increasing as well is warranted. This isn't news, but Glowbro is far and beyond the best sylv counter, with two very splashable sets (Calm Mind and AV), along with good SpA and bulk. It's coverage is also pretty amazing, with options like FSight, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Focus Blast, and Flamethrower, allowing for some fairly unpredictable builds. It can take on most popular special attackers with an AV set, being able to counter Keldeo, Noivern, Starmie, and Roserade. This, alongside it's solid staying power because of Regen+Reliable recovery, makes me want to say that it's A material.

:krookodile: to A-
Might just be me and my stupid team, but i've always found krook rather easy to handle. It's unimpressive bulk coupled with it's ehh speed tier and only slightly above average attack means that unless its running scarf (which it almost always has to run) it's not going to be very threatening unless you have no good fighting types (which almost every team has). And you don't even need a fighting type to beat it.... most Noiverns can 2HKO it with Draco Meteor. It's very easily revenge killed, scarf is easy to scout for, it faces huge competition from Zarude and Terrakion (and i'd rather run those two over krook because of Zarude's unpredictability and Terrakion's huge atk stat coupled with a solid speed tier) , and it can't touch a GWeezing or a faster scarfmon without getting killed, so it shouldn't be where it is atm imo.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
:slowbro-galar: to A/A-

With Sylveon steadily increasing in viability, I feel like it's best counter increasing as well is warranted. This isn't news, but Glowbro is far and beyond the best sylv counter, with two very splashable sets (Calm Mind and AV), along with good SpA and bulk. It's coverage is also pretty amazing, with options like FSight, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Focus Blast, and Flamethrower, allowing for some fairly unpredictable builds. It can take on most popular special attackers with an AV set, being able to counter Keldeo, Noivern, Starmie, and Roserade. This, alongside it's solid staying power because of Regen+Reliable recovery, makes me want to say that it's A material.
Super duper hard agree, I actually think this Pokemon is underexplored but I wanted to add three things to this post:
  • Intuitively, max SpA on AV sets makes a lot of sense to give Glowbro some power but running near max SpD is honestly just as good or better this meta because it lets you comfortably handle Choice Specs / CM Keldeo when paired with a sturdy water resist like Synthesis Zarude and you can much more easily scout Choice Specs Porygon Z which has been picking up in usage in some Grand Slam games since at least PDT used it. Also helps vs NP Celebi
  • Toxic Spikes is seeing at least a small increase in usage because Toxic Spikes Dragalge and Tentacruel have been used to try and abuse Sylveon more, Grounded Poisons are ever helpful
  • As much as Glowbro loves abusing Sylveon, Sylveon is still sort of at his zenith right now and it's also a fantastic partner for Glowbro, resisting Dark + cleric support, which makes this duo very potent right now
 
rise to A-/A now that lycanroc is banned sharpedo, who was already good, is easily the best cleaner in the tier imo. A severe lack of priority in the tier makes this very hard to stop for offensive teams as lycanroc was the main thing stopping the shark cleaning shop. Skarmory also being gone frees up sharpedo's good movepool up even more as when skarm was around hydro pump was easily the best fourth slot but now you can tech for whatever counter you want to get around, i.e poison jab for sylveon, psychic fangs for keld/weezing. Really really good mon, so long as you can survive with having one less slot defensively, sharpedo I think is a cut above even the likes of polteageist (courtesy of zarude) in terms of sweeping threat.

things that I think could change rankings but don't have enough experience on, reuni to A: shits on all the fat mons, excellent movepool plus enough power to make hard switches to counters like krook or zarude risky. Multitude of sets is also cool. kingdra to C/C-: can't see rain being that viable rn and that alone isn't reason enough for B, struggles with set up reliance and fairies are on many teams. Heliolisk to A-: nothing in A ranks deals with it well asides from chansey but you're running volt switch and hazards with this thing anyway. Water immunity is also really nice and a well timed switch in I think can really swing a game.
 
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Araquanid B>B+/A-

I’m not the best player but I think this is a valid point. I’ve noticed an uptick in Araquanid usage and for good reason. Since Lycanroc was banned one of its main counters is gone. People usually think of Araquanid as a sticky web lead but it’s so much more than that

It’s sub/toxic set is deadly and it’s Liquidation does a ridiculous amount of damage. You can stay in and guess sticky webs and try to kill Araquanid and either get subbed on or hit with a liquidation. Once it’s sub is up it’s incredibly dangerous and if you don’t have a Noivern with hurricane it’s going to cripple your team. Even if you stay in and guess webs then webs are up and it did it’s job

Not to mention it’s incredible bulk. It can wall Keledo and pretty much all of the dark types running around the tier. With dark and fighting being two of the biggest attack types in the tier it’s got a ton of defensive utility. Araquanid does face competition from Slowbro and Slowking as a bulky water when not running webs but I think it’s power gives it a niche over them

I think it’s a better and more viable than the majority of B-tier definitely outclassing Pokémon like Kingdra, Bronzong, Ribombee, Gigalith, and Seimsitoad. I even think it comes close to outclassing a couple Pokémon in B+ like Escaliver, Grimmsnarl, Palossand, and Copperjah
 
I reached like #9 on the ladder to try and get a better view of the meta and I have some thoughts:

to S rank. Yeah I get that this might be a little immediate but this undeniably the best wincon in the metagame right now and behind Noivern the best Pokemon in the metagame. Its versatility is unreal and it excels in all of its possible roles whether that be automatize, meteor beam + sr etc. It finds so many instances to set up because of its bulk and just the nature of some Pokemon being common (see: galarian weezing) Not many things can OHKO it because of its bulk and prism armor and its moveset can be altered to fit the team/what is countering it at the time for instance earth power for incineroar x-scissor for zarude on dd sets etc. I truly believe this thing is unmatched in the meta at the moment and if you don't play your cards correctly it will easily dent your team. Nothing is better in the meta at the moment fullstop besides Noivern (which is the metas best Pokemon because of its role compression, not because it's freakishly good on offense or anything). There's nothing else to really say, it's just undeniably a titan of this tier.

I support
rise to A+ rank. I think Sylveon at this point is a metagame defining Pokemon. In the past its choice specs set used to be one of the most fun sets in the entire metagame but now its defensive sets have been awesome, whether that be wishpass or cm + wish or whatever. It's obviously freakishly bulky and checks so many Pokemon because of its typing. Hyper voice uninvested still does a lot weirdly and it can be a complete pain for teams to get off the map. Just looking at A+ and S ranks, Sylveon can check pretty much every mon bar Mimikyu pretty solidly.

rise to A+ rank. Cobalion is pretty much the best Zarude check in the game right now, is a reliable rocks setter, and stops many physical attackers such as mimikyu and bisharp in their tracks. Being able to switch into Knock is a really underrated trait to have. A solid steel STAB can be threatening to Sylveon especially bulky sets that most people don't usually have a check/counter for. It definitely struggles with Alolawak and gets walled by Pokemon like Slowbro and Doublade but considering you're using Cobalion as a pivot rather than a straight up threat on offense I do think that it provides so much utility in one slot it should be in the A+ conversation again.

I agree with
rise to A rank. I think we all knew this one was coming. AV Galarbro is a top-tier pivot in the metagame because of how common Sylveon and Noivern are and hits pretty hard because of having high-powered STABs. I think its versatility, similar to Necrozma, is also a really good trait it possesses. Nasty plot, calm mind, and AV are all awesome sets at the moment and GalarBro has a pretty sweet STAB combo + coverage in flamethrower to take advantage of. It's got solid bulk too, being able to stomach a scarf zarude darkest lariat and hit back with a sludge bomb. Initially, people thought GalarBro would be some kind of LO pivot or something of the sort, but now that it's being played to its strengths we are starting to see how good it is.

I support
drop to C+ rank. There's just no real reason to use Milotic nowadays. It was an awesome mixed wall, but Slowbro does pretty much everything it does better. Competitive sets can be a solid wallbreaker but in all honesty I think we all know that relying on switching in on a defog (or relying on a stat drop like intimidate) isn't the best idea. It can definitely spam Haze/toxic etc. because it can stop some physical attackers but then when it comes to that I'd just use some obscure ass mon like Quagsire.

I support
to A- rank. It's just a good pivot. Volt switch hits hard and its speed tier is beautiful. The only real issue I have with Heliolisk atm is it a) sometimes doesn't hit hard enough and b) has literally no physical bulk, to the point where a starmie psyshock will OHKO it. But it does its job well, helps manage speed control in a generally slow meta, I think that you can definitely fit this thing onto most teams that need a momentum grabber. Heliolisk is definitely a good mon in the UU metagame.

I think that's all I have on my mind at the moment. The meta is slowly getting more fun now that lycanroc is out. I'm sure some of these ideas I put out there are going to be a little confusing to some people so I'd love to hear some thoughts.
 
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Cynde

toasty
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drampa to c- on the basis of its specs set. no, not joking. at max speed, it's just a smidge faster than umbreon / sylveon / slowish g-weezing so they aren't safe switch-ins. the tier struggles for good chandelure switch-ins, especially on offence and this fills that role nicely. it has a ridiculous 135 spa so with specs draco meteor pretty much cripples or kos anything that isn't a fairy type. obviously it doesn't have the typing or speed to be a useful mon in every situation but sap sipper helps mitigate some of that. worth a spot on the vr

alsoo, keldeo and cobalion should swap ranks.
 
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