ORAS Sticky Webs Discussion Thread

[Vulpix03]

With Smogon Tour going on and SPL right around the corner, I feel like now is the best time to bring up a topic that has plagued the ORAS OU metagame for some time but has never been addressed on Smogon - Sticky Webs.
I am starting this thread so that the ORAS Council can hear the community’s opinion on the topic before deciding their course of action. Do you think webs are ban worthy? Do you think they are a balanced part of the metagame? Are you not sure? Whatever your opinion may be, I encourage you to share it in this thread. I will start by sharing mine.

Around this time last year, I did not believe Sticky Webs to be ban worthy at all. I thought it was just the newest trend that would eventually fizzle out once people began to properly prep for it. As time went on however, my stance began to change. Time and time again I watched games where Web teams were able to claim easy wins, even against supposedly “bad” matchups. The sheer offensive pressure exerted by Web teams would put the non-Webs player on the back foot almost immediately, and oftentimes this offensive pressure would just simply overwhelm the opposing team. This was highlighted in SPL 11, where Sticky Web teams won a whopping 5 out of 6 games. This could have easily been 6 out of 6 as well, if not for a few blunders on one Sticky Web user’s part. Such an insane win percentage in Smogon’s most prestigious tournament goes to show just how deadly Webs as a playstyle is.

You may be wondering, what exactly makes Sticky Webs banworthy?

The Offensive Threats In ORAS OU

ORAS OU has a plethora of powerful threats that are able to overwhelm defensive Pokemon, and many teams rely on faster Pokemon to keep these threats in check. For example, Timid Heatran, Scarf Magnezone and Choice Specs Keldeo are many team’s answers to offensive Mega Scizor, thanks to their resistance to Bullet Punch and their ability to OHKO Scizor in return. Similarly, Keldeo, Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Mega Diancie are able to offensively check Bisharp, with Tyranitar also checking Thundurus. Sticky Webs’ ability to slow these Pokemon down leaves many teams without proper counterplay to the offensive threats this tier has to offer.

ORAS OU’s Lack Of Hazard Removal

The tier has a very limited set of options when it comes to hazard control: Latios, Latias, Excadrill, Starmie, Zapdos and Mega Diancie being the most viable options. Webs, more or less, has ways to punish or block all of these Pokemon when they attempt to remove hazards.
Latios and Latias are, quite frankly, poor defog users in general. This is due to Latios’ most viable sets being either Scarf or Specs, and Latias’ being a Pokemon that is oftentimes used as a sacrificial lamb. A choice locked Latios will always have to think twice before defogging against five set up sweepers, especially when Defiant Bisharp can switch in. Why not use a non choiced Latios? Well, in every non Webs matchup, it is simply sub optimal. Latias fairs slightly better, if not Scarfed, as it has the ability to punish a Bisharp or similar mon with Thunder Wave. If you’re relying on T-wave though, is that really competitive? And before you ask “why not run HP Fire Latias?” Latias is a Pokemon that is hard pressed as is when trying to fit moves, and the only real reason to use it is for Healing Wish plus Defog. HP Fire takes away a valuable move slot and makes a mediocre Pokemon even worse.
Spinners such as Excadrill and Starmie don’t have it much easier. Red Card Shuckle stops Excadrill from spamming Iron Head / Rapid Spin on lead, and once Webs go up, any Drill outside of Sand Rush in sand gets outsped and heavily pressured. Red Card puts Starmie in a similar situation. Web teams often run a Ghost Type as well, with Hoopa being the most popular. Hoopa’s great Special Defense stat allows it to quite comfortably switch into and block Starmie from spinning.
Mega Diancie is a Pokemon that I see many people claim is a “counter” to Webs. This is simply false. Diancie requires a turn to Mega Evolve to gain access to Magic Bounce, and this is easy to exploit for the Webs user. For example, if the Diancie user leads Diancie and the Webs user leads Scizor, suddenly turn one becomes one big prediction game. Do you Mega Evolve and Protect, giving the Scizor a free Swords Dance? Do you switch out into your Scizor answer without Mega Evolving and give Shuckle the opportunity to set hazards? If you have HP Fire, do you go for it and risk dying to Bullet Punch for nothing? On the flip side, you lead with something expecting Scizor. Well, you most likely give Shuckle at least one hazard, and if they lead Shuckle then you’re screwed. All of these scenarios favor the Webs player. Shuckle also runs Red Card, so if Diancie attacks the shuckle, it may be forced out as Shuckle gets up Webs. Fun, right?
Zapdos is probably the one mon that can actually defog against Webs without giving something the chance to snowball. A good defensive typing plus access to Heat Wave means it beats Scizor, Bisharp and Azumarill under most circumstances, and prevents mons like Manaphy and Thundurus from setting up for free. So we have the counter! Webs aren’t broken! Well, Zapdos sees minimal use in OU nowadays, as it is hard to fit on non-stall teams.

What Beats Webs? And Why Don’t We Just Use Those Pokemon More?

Sticky Webs, or at least the patented Shuckle/Scizor/Bisharp/Hoopa/Thundurus/Manaphy version, has very few “bad” matchups. The few Pokemon that do beat Webs are, to be frank, just not the best. Talonflame’s usage has dropped off a cliff over the past few years, due to Scarf Tyranitar, Slowbro, Rotom-W and some of its other checks all surging in usage. It is also hard to build around, with its 4x weakness to Stealth Rocks and this tiers poor removal. Quagsire is a Pokemon that should win the non-Manaphy Webs matchup ten times out of ten. Quagsire, however, is only seen on hard stall teams, due to its lack of utility and it just being a mediocre Pokemon. Zapdos, as mentioned above, should be able to take care of business versus Webs. However, as I said before it is hard to build around and hard to justify using on most teams.
For those of you who ask “why not just use one of these Webs counters on every team?”. The short answer is that these Pokemon are just not very good outside of Webs match ups. Also, if you are forced to run a suboptimal Pokemon to have a winning matchup vs a cheese playstyle, isn’t that the definition of uncompetitive?

Why Not Ban Shuckle?

This is an argument that I have seen people make time and time again. “Shuckle’s ability to use Red Card plus its access to Stealth Rocks as well as Sticky Web is what sets Webs over the edge.” To this my argument is simple; Shuckle is not the problem, Sticky Webs are. I think the Arena Trap ban in generations 5-8 is a good parallel to this one. With Arena Trap, although Dugtrio was the primary abuser, the ability was what was uncompetitive, and what was eventually banned. This is because it was recognized that although Pokemon such as Diglett and Trapinch are not as good as Dugtrio, they are still able to make use of Arena Trap’s uncompetitive effect. The same is true for Webs. Pokemon such as Maquerain and Galvantula are able to set Webs, with Maquerain Webs even winning a game in SPL 11. These Pokemon, although not as effective as Shuckle, still allow for the uncompetitive and unhealthy nature of Sticky Web to exist.

As I stated in the beginning of this post, I am starting this thread so that the ORAS OU community has a place to voice their thoughts on this polarizing topic. Although I am not part of the ORAS council, I am writing this on their behalf, so that they can read the community’s opinion and decide what the best course of action will be. I strongly encourage you to share your thoughts.

SPL 11 Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-478891 Reiku vs Persephone
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-478279 Reiku vs Luigi
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-477349 Adri vs Garay Oak
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-476307 Raptor vs Garay Oak
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-476188 Santu vs Reiku
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-473749 Erzengal vs Garay Oak

 

[ABR]

I hope this isn’t being entertained, but just in case...

This seems to be one of the more blatant cases of people getting comfortable around more centralizing / broken things and panicking when something disrupts that comfort. I’m not saying to ban clef meta or glisc, but surely we’d look at the actual threats / centralizing forces before a fringe hazard? Reminder that rocks and spikes exist too. You can’t even use the uncompetitive argument that surrounds stag / arena / bp. People have just gotten used to not preparing for webs, and now that it’s winning some games in smogon tour it’s an inconvenience.

You don’t need to do much to beat it either. “Oras hazard removal sucks.” You’re right, and 5/6 mons on webs take spikes. Shuckle encoring doesn’t exactly stop ferro or skarm from doing their business turn 1. Additionally, webs threats can be checked with mega latias, glisc, serp, quag, fast rotom, etc. If you’re really so set on removing hazards, use lati@s, zap, or sand drill. I mean, is there even an attempt to deal with it in the builder?

I have a very hard time viewing this as anything but lazy, knee-jerking cheese-shaming.

 

[xray]

I am usually not one to get involved in forum discussions, however this is a matter of extreme importance to me so I am going to share my opinion.

Webs have been around for two years now, this is not a new problem that popped up overnight. The metagame has had lots of time to adapt, and has adapted. Quagsire and stall are much more common, people are using fast Rotom more and more. The metagame’s attempts to adapt have not stopped webs however, and the reason behind that is:

Webs are able to adapt and overcome bad match ups as well.

For example, Grass Knot Thundurus is rising in popularity, luring in and nuking Quagsire. Nasty Plot Salac Berry Hoopa is seeing usage, giving you a better matchup against Stall as well as blocking Rapid Spin. You can also change your Pokemon based on what you expect your opponent to bring. If you expect them to stall, throw on Manaphy > Azumarill for example. The fact is, Webs have very few bad matchups, and way too many good matchups. In the most recent Smogon Tour Soulwind played vs Lusa. Lusa clearly expected Webs and brought an up to date stall team that was supposed to have a “good” matchup. He got steamrolled.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-524410
I’m not going to say Lusa played that game perfectly, however Soulwind clearly had no problem breaking that team. Now before you say “Soulwind didn’t even set up Webs, how are they broken?”. That’s the point. Webs allow you to run 5 absurdly powerful yet slow Pokemon that can just blow up fat teams without having to worry about losing to offensive Pokemon like Keldeo, Scarf Magnezone or Scarf Tar. If you replace Shuckle with any Rock lead like Azelf, the team becomes unviable. Without Webs you’d lose to many decent Bulky Offense or Balance teams.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-524389
In this game I played vs Soulwind, I figured Webs were coming, so I decided to go with a team that looked solid against it at first glance in: Mega Medicham, AV Torn-T, fast Rotom-W, MB Drill and Flame Clef, a matchup you'd think would be fine. Basically, I had no way of stopping Webs from going up, and once they were up it would be almost impossible for me to remove them due to Hoopa Spin Blocking and Mana/Bish revenge killing. The Flinch on Medi probably didn’t even matter, I was going to lose either way. Pokemon like 263 Rotom are fine on paper, however oftentime you have to trade Rotom to beat one of Bish/Sciz, opening up the other one to sweep later. Bish can even be lum and just take the burn and knock you out. Weavile couldn’t even revenge kill Thundurus with Ice Shard because that would have allowed either Sciz or Bish to set up.

This is how most BO/Balance teams fair vs webs. Even Mega Diancie teams usually lose because Shuckle can just spam webs vs Diancie. If you attack Shuckle, you get red carded out and Webs go up. If you Protect, you bounce back Webs but that gives Bisharp a free Defiant boost, making it immensely threatening as soon as it enters the field.

The problem with webs is that they are simply too restrictive when building. Can you prep for webs and get a good match up? Yes. In my eyes however, you just can't play a tour considering webs into your prep every week because you need more than just 2 or 3 slots to cover it, making you weaker to other common playstyles. Isn’t that the definition of centralizing?

I think the argument that pokemon like Clefable and Metagross are centralizing is stupid. Clefable has multiple checks and counters that are top threats in their own right. Same goes for Metagross. Sticky Webs force you to run obscure stuff that you wouldn’t want to use otherwise. Many of the things ABR listed aren’t even good against Webs. MLatias often needs to be traded for a TWave (and maybe a TBolt), Gliscor is just a sack or setup fodder, Quagsire is only viable on Stall and Sand for example generally has a weak matchup to Pokemon like Mega Scizor, Bisharp or Manaphy. So it is really not as simple as that.

Basically, I don’t think this is an issue that should be brushed aside as lazy cheese shaming. Webs is a topic worth discussing, whether you are pro ban or against banning them. It is a centralizing playstyle that has very few downsides and many, many upsides when using them.

 

[blank]

having a centralizing force in a metagame is not an inherently bad thing. as ABR pointed out, ORAS has its own status quo of centralizing forces like clefable, mega metagross, gliscor, etc. the argument against webs is not simply that it is a "new" centralizing force that goes against the ones we have become comfortable with. unlike the other centralizing elements of the metagame, sticky webs do not have sufficient counterplay.

xray and ABR mentioned many examples of counterplay in their posts, and there is a common theme with the bulk of these examples: they are niche and/or you need to run multiples to actually have a chance vs webs. beyond that, xray pointed out that a lot of these examples barely even work... also, as xray said, webs has been able to adapt for these niche counters, making the situation even more complicated. a playstyle adapting is not inherently unhealthy, but when said playstyle is adapting beyond an already limited list of counters in such a way that the webs user has a sizeable matchup advantage... you got a problem.

this has all led to some seriously negative effects on the metagame. there is always a matchup element to pokemon, but webs has exacerbated the matchup issue to a point where it's like rock paper scissors... except that rock paper scissors would be more healthy than what we have now because the scissors user would not also have a significant chance to beat rock.

 

[ABR]

I mean, webs do win sometimes, that alone can't break it. Still, nearly every example I've seen posted either involves 1) people losing to offensive threats regardless of webs or 2) people blatantly not knowing how to play. I don't intend to come off as overly insulting re: plays but I don't want poor examples to go unchecked either.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-524410

I don't know how you can cite this as "Soulwind clearly had no problem breaking that team". This looks like a 100 / 0 matchup for Lusa if anything. If Lusa stossed instead of softing to give mana a ton of turns for leftovers, he was able to revenge with latias and keep it for thund. Shuckle is irrelevant, if it ever sets a hazard then skarm gets some spikes. Quag endlessly beats the steels. Chansey into latias beats mana + thund every time, gk doesn't matter. Clef easily avoids the 2hko from hoopa and ohkos it. This isn't "webs can adapt to overcome any matchup".

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-524389

I mean, this team just isn't good vs webs. It's weird that you thought of it as a "webs ct" but it evidently is not.

As for the SPL 11 replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-478891 Reiku vs Persephone

Persephone's team is extremely weak to Sciz and Azu regardless of webs. Starmie is a halfassed revenge killer to both anyway, but it can only revenge one and the threats set up on scarf tar / ferro no problem.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-478279 Reiku vs Luigi

No ghost resist, 6-0d by bish if meta isn't bp (it isn't here).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-477349 Adri vs Garay Oak

He won, and I wouldn't consider this a team made specifically with webs in mind either.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-476307 Raptor vs Garay Oak

Webs and rocks were both permanently removed on turn 4. It is not exactly surprising that non-moonblast clef struggled to beat dnite and gyara regardless of that. Yet, despite all of this, Garay still could've / should've won if he had full hp clef vs gyara and subsequently serp (either by getting the soft on espeed plays right, different paras, or sacking slowbro to avoid all that).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-476188 Santu vs Reiku

Reiku won if he did ANY of

1) Tar on ice turn 5
2) Tar on ice turn 10
3) Edge turn 12
4) Glisc turn 12

These all gave him an extra sac at the end which he evidently needed to get tar in vs thund.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-473749 Erzengel vs Garay Oak

Turn 13: non-mega hammer arm, sac chomp, mega hammer arm = 3 whole mons saved.

 

[Niko]

I mean, webs do win sometimes, that alone can't break it. Still, nearly every example I've seen posted either involves 1) people losing to offensive threats regardless of webs or 2) people blatantly not knowing how to play. I don't intend to come off as overly insulting re: plays but I don't want poor examples to go unchecked either.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-524410

I don't know how you can cite this as "Soulwind clearly had no problem breaking that team". This looks like a 100 / 0 matchup for Lusa if anything. If Lusa stossed instead of softing to give mana a ton of turns for leftovers, he was able to revenge with latias and keep it for thund. Shuckle is irrelevant, if it ever sets a hazard then skarm gets some spikes. Quag endlessly beats the steels. Chansey into latias beats mana + thund every time, gk doesn't matter. Clef easily avoids the 2hko from hoopa and ohkos it. This isn't "webs can adapt to overcome any matchup".

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-524389

I mean, this team just isn't good vs webs. It's weird that you thought of it as a "webs ct" but it evidently is not.

As for the SPL 11 replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-478891 Reiku vs Persephone

Persephone's team is extremely weak to Sciz and Azu regardless of webs. Starmie is a halfassed revenge killer to both anyway, but it can only revenge one and the threats set up on scarf tar / ferro no problem.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-478279 Reiku vs Luigi

No ghost resist, 6-0d by bish if meta isn't bp (it isn't here).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-477349 Adri vs Garay Oak

He won, and I wouldn't consider this a team made specifically with webs in mind either.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-476307 Raptor vs Garay Oak

Webs and rocks were both permanently removed on turn 4. It is not exactly surprising that non-moonblast clef struggled to beat dnite and gyara regardless of that. Yet, despite all of this, Garay still could've / should've won if he had full hp clef vs gyara and subsequently serp (either by getting the soft on espeed plays right, different paras, or sacking slowbro to avoid all that).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-476188 Santu vs Reiku

Reiku won if he did ANY of

1) Tar on ice turn 5
2) Tar on ice turn 10
3) Edge turn 12
4) Glisc turn 12

These all gave him an extra sac at the end which he evidently needed to get tar in vs thund.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-473749 Erzengel vs Garay Oak

Turn 13: non-mega hammer arm, sac chomp, mega hammer arm = 3 whole mons saved.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-524410 Soulwind vs Lusa
The part about Chansey double Seismic Tossing is just wrong. We can see Chans doing 27% with seismic toss, which actually means that it had a bit of HP investments:

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 100 HP Manaphy: 100-100 (27.3 - 27.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

So, after 2 hits and 2 Leftovers Recovery, Manaphy has like 58% HP. This is the calc about MLatias:

0 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 100 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 172-204 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

You can still say that you can sack something else before sending Latias out, but you really haven't a sack, unless Skarmo has Brave Bird. In every other case, the game is lost. Gliscor can't work as a sack, as the Toxic Orb wasn't active so Facade had this damage:

0 Atk Gliscor Facade vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 49-58 (13.3 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO

Which isn't even able to put Manaphy in range of Thunderbolt. Quagsire isn't an option, game lost. And you need Clefable to Knock Off Hoopa. But lets suppose that Skarmo actually has Brave Bird. Do you really think the game is over this way? Soulwind can still keep Manaphy to pressure Quagsire and get another kill later. There's literally 0 space to mistakes. And I remember that this was supposed to be a counterteam.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-524389 Soulwind vs Xray
The team is actually good against Webs. Torn+Rotom into 2 strong revengekillers is what you want to get a chance against Webs. You have a double strong prio with medicham, double pivot, Weavile to revengekill Hoopa and Thundurus, and a CM Clef to eventually clean. I think the problem in this game is the way Excadrill was played, combined with the fact that SW was a bit lucky there.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-478891 Reiku vs Persephone
Here I agree with the fact that Persephone's team is weak to Scizor (not so much to Azu, imo). But the point is that the game wouldn't have been so easy for Reiku without the Webs. For example, he could try to get a burn on Scizor with Starmie, and he could use scarf Tyranitar as a revengekiller for Bisharp.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-478279 Reiku vs Luigi
I mean, this is clearly a game won by Webs. You have everything to beat every opponent Pokémon and even more, but guess what? Scizor is gonna destroy your Scarf Magnezone, s/o Webs.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-476307 Raptor vs Garay Oak
At what cost did Garay Oak remove the Hazards? He lost a Sand Rush Excadrill against Hyper Offense.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-476188 Santu vs Reiku
Doesn't matter if he could win (predicting and risking his Tyranitar by the way, lol. I could win every game I played, if I was sure about what my opponent was going to do). You still see that he had to sack an important Pokémon just to take down the hazards.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-473749 Erzengel vs Garay Oak
What if he danced again on the Chomp sack??

 

[lighthouses]

Are we absolutely sure the success of this particular team and its variants(sometimes azu, sometimes manaphy) isn't due to the teams in general being weak to some of these threats rather than webs as an entry hazard?
Belly drum azu and bisharp particularly come to mind, as well as thundurus-T, feel like these kinds of mons would be shredding the standard lazy balance teambuilding thats been going around inn oras for years, it really is no secret that a very small number of people actually do build for this tier with the majority of good players just taking already-done teams and tweeking.
I just can't see the effectiveness of these teams being too too neutered by swaping shuckle for say, a suicide landorus-t lead or something of the sort. My question basically is: did we just collectively discover that webs is broken or rather that the common teams are all destroyed by offense in general?

 

[xray]

Webs allow you to run 5 absurdly powerful yet slow Pokemon that can just blow up fat teams without having to worry about losing to offensive Pokemon like Keldeo, Scarf Magnezone or Scarf Tar. If you replace Shuckle with any Rock lead like Azelf, the team becomes unviable. Without Webs you’d lose to many decent Bulky Offense or Balance teams.

lighthouses Next time maybe read the latest posts before posting, the answer might be right in front of your eyes.

 

[lighthouses]

um, good sir all you said was 'the team becomes unviable' i don't think theres anything in front of my eyes right now

 

[teal6]

what about galvantula

 

[Leo]

I just can't see the effectiveness of these teams being too too neutered by swaping shuckle for say, a suicide landorus-t lead or something of the sort. My question basically is: did we just collectively discover that webs is broken or rather that the common teams are all destroyed by offense in general?

I’m not going to say Lusa played that game perfectly, however Soulwind clearly had no problem breaking that team. Now before you say “Soulwind didn’t even set up Webs, how are they broken?”. That’s the point. Webs allow you to run 5 absurdly powerful yet slow Pokemon that can just blow up fat teams without having to worry about losing to offensive Pokemon like Keldeo, Scarf Magnezone or Scarf Tar. If you replace Shuckle with any Rock lead like Azelf, the team becomes unviable. Without Webs you’d lose to many decent Bulky Offense or Balance teams.

 

[Vulpix03]

Are we absolutely sure the success of this particular team and its variants(sometimes azu, sometimes manaphy) isn't due to the teams in general being weak to some of these threats rather than webs as an entry hazard?
Belly drum azu and bisharp particularly come to mind, as well as thundurus-T, feel like these kinds of mons would be shredding the standard lazy balance teambuilding thats been going around inn oras for years, it really is no secret that a very small number of people actually do build for this tier with the majority of good players just taking already-done teams and tweeking.
I just can't see the effectiveness of these teams being too too neutered by swaping shuckle for say, a suicide landorus-t lead or something of the sort. My question basically is: did we just collectively discover that webs is broken or rather that the common teams are all destroyed by offense in general?

I did put in my post how webs push some things over the edge, but i'll explain again.
I think the best Pokemon to use as an example would be Mega Scizor. The AOA set you see on webs has very few defensive checks: Talonflame, Zapdos and Quagsire being the only ones I can think of. Most teams in the tier rely on faster Pokemon such as timid Heatran, scarf Zone and choice specs Keldeo to check it, as all of these Pokemon resist bp and can ohko it in return. Faster Pokemon like Excadrill and Metagross can revenge it after some chip as well. What Sticky Webs does is allow Scizor to outspeed all of the aforementioned Pokemon, leaving them unable to check Scizor. What I said about Scizor goes for the other Pokemon commonely seen on webs as well. Sure, you can stick an Azelf over Shuckle and use the same team, however it would not be nearly as effective as most of the common offensive threats in the tier would just shut it down. Sticky Webs allow you to run 5 slow yet absurdly strong and hard to defensively check threats without being punished.

 

[Finchinator]

Sticky Webs are not broken in ORAS.

I get why this thread was made because it is painful watching a cornerstone of the status quo of a metagame deteriorate after so many years due to a previously fringe playstyle -- it is true that certain teams are less effective now with Sticky Webs being more common, but norms changing does not directly correlate to tiering action being a necessary. Quite on the contrary, this is the sign of metagame growth and development, which should be seen as a credit to the active ORAS playerbase and community. The question should be if this archetype or the Pokemon on it force an unreasonably specific amount of adaptation, thus restricting teambuilding and/or gameplay. To that, my personal answer is no, I do not believe that is the case and I do not believe we should ban Sticky Webs from ORAS.

Obviously, the move itself is not broken at face value -- it is just an entry hazard that can reduce speed and it is uncontroversial in countless formats. But even if you go into the playstyle, which is obviously the intention of this discussion, ORAS Sticky Webs does not have much going for it that the flavor-of-the-month/year hyper offenses have going for them in most generations beyond being timeless, in my opinion. Sure, Hyper Offense in ORAS may be "solved" with Sticky Webs teams being close to peak consistency for the archetype of Hyper Offense **cue replay of SoulWind winning another Smogon Tour game with his beloved Shuckle** -- I am not denying the effectiveness of it or the track record of Sticky Webs thus far, but I am denying that this means it is broken, especially when we dig deeper.

I do not believe ORAS Sticky Webs is that much more effective than common Hyper Offenses throughout the generations, specifically to the extent that you have to go that far out of your way or it is reaching unheared of levels of consistency. There are countless exploits that have been used to success and while some are better/more consistent than others, I find Sticky Webs to be manageable in the teambuilder a vast majority of the time.

I find the above replay analysis from tournament games to be exhausted at this point as each side will fight assert their personal interpretation as the right one, failing to actually make any actual progress. In addition, I feel like I would be beating a dead horse with ABR's prior posts already being up if I were to expand on this much more, but there are some specific things I want to point out:

• Yes, hazard removal in ORAS is limited, so Sticky Webs stay up in many games. However, Sticky Webs teams also struggle mightily with opposing hazards. They often have 5 Pokemon (with the only common exception being Thundurus or Thundurus-T) weak to Spikes and multiple weak to Stealth Rock. This makes finding a turn to set-up even more challenging, which is especially problematic as you are not going to win with just one or even two openings against most well-constructed teams.

• Sticky Webs, or at least the patented Shuckle/Scizor/Bisharp/Hoopa/Thundurus/Manaphy version, has very few “bad” matchups.

  For those of you who ask “why not just use one of these Webs counters on every team?”. The short answer is that these Pokemon are just not very good outside of Webs match ups.

  This is just not true. A number of household names in the metagame can pose as a major threat to Sticky Webs or at least form a good backbone against it. ABR alluded to some of them and honestly not all of them are linear "bring this and win" type of Pokemon, aside from perhaps Quagsire, but it does not take going too far out of your way to have something to double-check Scizor/Bisharp, to not get 6-0d by BD Azumarill, to be able to at least revenge kill Thundurus(-T), and to play a thoughtfully planned game along the way. I also really dislike how much you generalize things -- you are treating this archetype as if it is black-and-white when a lot of current balance teams have a fighting chance of beating Webs, but it requires thoughtful play to do so. This means you are not using one slot or two slots to outright counter Sticky Webs while making your team suboptimal otherwise, which you seem keen on in your post, but rather you are bringing Pokemon that are intended to be countermeasures to other Pokemon in the metagame and piloting them at a better level than your opponent. This is how competitive Pokemon has and always will work. Obviously some games get out of hand against unprepared teams, but the proportion of games this is the case is similar to that of other HO styles in other generations and oftentimes a product of poor teambuilding by the opponent.
• A lot of the issues here stem off of people being unwilling to adapt to metagame trends. This is oftentimes the case in the opening years of a generation being an old generation. People being stuck on the old status quo and even reusing teams that initially aged as classics of the metagame. And I get it, especially as someone who was once concerned about BW OU to the extent that I probably supported a few more radical ideas than I would be happy to admit nowadays. However, I do not think there is nearly enough evidence to advocate for a ban of the move Sticky Webs. I also feel like there are other things that the metagame is reacting to that are perhaps unspoken due to them being less controversial in nature, as ABR alludes to, and I feel like we need to be less quick-to-anger when it comes to situations like these, especially in old generations.

Do not ban Sticky Webs from ORAS.

 

[PDC]

i can't believe we lost in spl to webs two times what the fuck

 

[baddummy]

Webs certainly have a noticeable effect on the metagame, and often require a substantial effort in the teambuilder to not autolose to. With that being said, my position is that I do not support a webs ban. However, I think people ought to have an opportunity to vote on webs, and I do support a suspect.

I would agree with lazy teambuilding resulting in a stagnant tier - we still see people spamming teams that were effective in the metagame 2 or 3 years ago. We still even see people spamming teams that were mediocre in the tier 2 or 3 years ago. However, my issue with this is that the same could be said of webs teams.

Webs isn't actually a collection of 6 pokemon, it's an engine that makes the other 5 pokemon on the team much harder to deal with. There are staples that I think are difficult to drop, for example, webs will always want Bisharp to punish defogs, and webs will always want an offensive ghost, meaning Hoopa-c or Gengar, to deter spin. The rest can be shuffled around according to what hurts the rest of metagame the most: Thundy-T/I + M-Sciz + Mana/Azu are just the best tools to do so at the moment. People in this thread have made the point that a lot of teams are just generally weak to these pokemon rather than webs being overpowered, but please realise that there is no obligation to use those 3. If the metagame adapts and becomes sturdier against NP Thundurus for example, webs can just restructure the team to make use of other offensive threats instead.

Objectively, there are reasons to be alarmed about webs, winning 5/6 spl games is an incredible statistic, and it has been cleaning up in stour recently. I am absolutely receptive to the idea that people are currently not playing correctly around webs, or are just simply not building correctly, a point ABR has been making very effectively. A factor that ought to be taken into consideration to counterbalance this, however, is that webs are purposefully designed to be very easy to operate. I personally would not want to see ORAS in a state where, for anyone who isn't at the very top of the metagame, webs will consistently outperform other teamstyles. However, I do not believe that this will happen.

But my conclusion is that webs, although annoying, are balanced, for reasons that I will now explain. Some pokemon that are particularly effective against webs are: Sand drill, because of how good it is at removing hazards while staying fast even under the effects of webs. Serp reverses the speed drop, and can potentially just win the whole game under the right conditions. Stall with quag doesn't care too much about the speed drop, and if it does choose to defog, Bisharp cannot take advantage of the attack raise too much.
A pattern emerges that many of the pokemon, cores, or teamstyles that will remain good against webs are also very effective against offensive teams in general, and that is the key reason why I think webs are balanced. Webs teams are obligated to keep up offensive pressure in order to disallow hazard control as much as it can, which means that it will always fall into the category of just another style of offence. Webs do constitute a burden in the teambuilder, but because of the fact that the methods of beating it consists of a list of pokemon that are viable in their own right, and are good against other styles of offence too, I cannot view webs as unhealthy for the metagame, as opposed to just being the most effective style of offence at the current moment.

I would like the wider community to be able to vote on this, but I personally would intend on voting do not ban.

 

[Eternal Spirit]

The only tier that has the rights to discuss if webs is broken is LC, anything else is bullshit.

 

[Will of Fire]

I'd like to spend a few words in the field.
As many things have already been said, I'll try to do my best to add something new and repeat less as possible.
I think we need a premise here: we're not talking about a simple chipping hazard like stealth rocks or spikes. The comparison doesn't fit that much. They have completely different purposes because a "simple" drop in speed really makes the difference between rkill or being rkilled. And it's pretty hard to remove webs or play around those even if you think you're prepared to them, because you could be badly punished as I'll demonstrate here.
I don't feel the counterplays mentioned here are as effective in practice as they seem on paper. E.g. let's take a look to the ideal fast answer to webs teams in which I start setting up my spikes with ferrothorn turn 1. Shuckle, after setting rocks and webs, has a good option by using final gambit. If ferro stays in to set up a third layer, it takes quite a big damage which is going to potentially help the rest of the team. This isn't something to underestimate. This example shows that webs teams don't gift you turns; both of the players make progress in order to win.
Sticky webs can evolve and adapt to the meta so as to play against the new surges, in fact many variants of this archetype exist as of now: mzor sharp is the standard one that rotates manaphy/azumarill or the ghost type between hoopa/gengar, the masquerain variants with LO dragonite+serp+mgyarados and also screen serp+dd mgyara. Even pokemons like quag and mlatias which perform well vs webs in general rn are not really hard to play around with. They are in stall teams most of the time and a good rain dance bulky manaphy with stab + ice beam could give an upper hand since it's not 2ohkoed by tbolt mlatias as we know (0 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 174-206 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery). Also, it's not like this set underperforms so much in no stall matchups. I also have here a replay of today smogon tour showing the set in action if you are interested:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-527496

Of course, sticky webs teams have counterplays. What hasn't, after all. You could play a bisharp or a serperior and see where it goes, metagross has a slight shot to do something as long as it remains in its regular form but it's still hurt because of his regular base speed the first turn it megaevolves unlike gen 7. Tank chomp is overloaded and outsped by scizor+bisharp's pressure, not even mentioning all the other threats such as thundurus-t and manaphy could eat it alive with ice coverage. Finally, lati@s are choiced most of the time so you have to think twice before getting locked in one of their moves.
Another point is you don't need webs to stay up for all the entire game. Once they accomplished their purpose as we can see in this replay https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ou-476307 sand rush exca died to avoid the speed drop and it paid off for sure. Obviously there also rare matchups in which you don't even need to set them up to win.
I'm sure the effort this playstyle requires on the teambuilder is hard enough to determine the unhealthfulness of it. As I said before, the way of the rkilling is often the best option you have against a threat you couldn't prepare for because you must account for a lot of them while teambuilding. I believe it's not people's fault during teambuilding if you can easily remove a big part of the threats and limit grounded mons with a speed drop. I don't think the current metagame has enough tools to adapt itself as the stickywebs do faster and without losing concreteness.
I'd like to make a plea and encourage everyone more thought and discussion in the current thread because I doubt passively waiting is going to solve anything.