Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Trick Room - An Underestimated Archetype in OU
Part 1: The Setters / Intro

So in the wake of everyone clamoring about the woes of hyper-offense, the death of balance, and so many other things in this unsteady metagame, I figured I would shine a spotlight on something that I've been trying on a number of different Pokemon teams lately, Trick Room. It allows a whole host of Pokemon normally unviable to be used and allows for some specific teams to handle otherwise nasty threats. So today we're going to focus on a variety of Trick Room setters, some standard, some more unconventional to showcase the variety brought forward by this playstyle. Three setters to be specific, and I will list other Pokemon that can learn Trick Room below as well.


Stakataka
Stats: 61 / 131 / 211 / 53 / 101 / 13


(Sample Set)
Stakataka @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Trick Room
- Gyro Ball
- Rock Slide​

Stakataka is one of the few Pokemon without a Psychic typing to gain access to Trick Room and can be an absolute menace if you play to its strengths. The abundance of Fighting-type spam almost necessitates partnering Stakataka with a Ghost, but in this current meta, that's not an issue. Compressing Rocks and Trick Room onto one set is an absolute blessing and one of the main reasons to use Stakataka as a sweeper. Gyro Ball and Rock Slide coming off of 131 attack, monstrously slow speed, and Brave with 252 investment will dent just about anything and also places some much needed offensive pressure on key threats.


Audino
Stats: 103 / 60 / 83 / 60 / 83 / 50


(Sample Set)
Audino @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Trick Room
- Knock Off
- Encore
- Wish / Toxic​

Now you're probably thinking "Audino, really?" The answer is yes for one main reason. It is the only Pokemon in the entire game with the following combination (Regenerator, Ghost Immunity, Trick Room). It also has access to unique moves like Knock Off, Encore, Wish, etc, it's an incredibly flexible Pokemon. Other Trick Room setters with a Ghost immunity like Porygon2 may look appealing in comparison, but they're prone to being worn down and have to dedicate a moveslot to Recover, if they even have Recover at all.



Slowking-Galar
Stats: 95 / 65 / 80 / 110 / 110 / 30


(Sample Set)
Slowking-Galar @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eerie Spell
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
- Trick Room​

Slowking-Galar is a great offensively inclined Trick Room setter and attacker for multiple reasons. Having Regenerator promotes additional longetivity alongside Eerie Spell wearing down opponent's PP slowly. In addition to having a nice defensive typing that quad-resists Fighting and also resists key types such as Fairy and Grass, it also gets a wide array of coverage moves. When Trick Room is up, pokemon such as Lando-I and Lando-T cannot switch in without the threat of being OHKO'd by Ice Beam, Ferrothorn has to be wary of Fire Blast at all times, etc. Slowking's movepool is unpredictable and the extra Special stat points make all the difference.

Other Pokemon that can learn Trick Room (along with specific advantages they might have):
Porygon 2
(Trick Room, Eviolite Bulk, Ghost Immunity, Access to Recover)
Articuno-Galar (Access to Recover, Strong Special Attack)
Hatterene (Access to Magic Bounce, Strong Special Attack)
Necrozma (Prism Armor helps Longevity, Varied Movepool, Solid Stats)
Magearna (Fantastic Typing and Movepool, Strong Offensive and Defensive Stats, Soul Heart Ability)
Calyrex (Resists Earthquake, Access to Encore and Leech Seed) [Super Niche]
Cresselia
(Immunity to Ground via Levitate, Access to Screens, Massive Bulk)
Slowbro-Galar (Access to Shell-Side Arm to punish dedicated Special Walls, Regenerator)
Mew, Jirachi, Celebi, Victini: (100 Base Speed makes them hard to work, but each have unique advantages) [Niche]

Additional Setters that I haven't tested:

Alakazam, Azelf, Carbink, Diancie, Mesprit, Uxie, Chandelure, Mimikyu, Porygon-Z, Starmie, Reuniclus, Indeedee, Sigilyph, a lot of RU - below PU Pokemon

If you have finished reading Part One, please move ahead to Part Two - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...cussion-thread-v7.3672210/page-9#post-8640853
 
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Lando-I: Because I love Celesteela, I can't see this thing as broken. It's certainly strong, but I can't see it as banworthy with some of the other, faster threats running around.
Life Orb Focus Blast from Landorus Incarnate 3HKOs Maximum Special Defense Celesteela, if it switches into it using Calm Mind it will take 54-64% from Focus Blast, it does not have reliable instant recovery, Landorus can run Knock Off to remove it's Leftovers or U-turn into a Magnezone ready to trap and fry it, and if the Landorus is running Gravity then obviously Celesteela is screwed. While it can't use ALL of these options at once, considering that it only really needs Earth Power and Sludge Wave to threaten most Pokemon it has 2 entire moveslots that can be dedicated to removing or helping facilitate the removal of ground immune steel types. It's ability to muscle past checks with it's absurd power and good movepool makes defensive counterplay inconsistent if not impossible for pretty much most teams, and it's decent natural physical bulk, great typing, and speed can make KOing it more difficult than one thinks. EDIT: While it's special bulk is definitely a little less than desirable, it can still take a special attack if it needs to apart from the obscenely powerful ones like Specs Latios Draco Meteor, invested STAB Water special attacks, and Ice moves.
 
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Life Orb Focus Blast from Landorus Incarnate 3HKOs Maximum Special Defense Celesteela, if it switches into it using Calm Mind it will take 54-64% from Focus Blast, it does not have reliable instant recovery, Landorus can run Knock Off to remove it's Leftovers or U-turn into a Magnezone ready to trap and fry it, and if the Landorus is running Gravity then obviously Celesteela is screwed. While it can't use ALL of these options at once, considering that it only really needs Earth Power and Sludge Wave to threaten most Pokemon it has 2 entire moveslots that can be dedicated to removing or helping facilitate the removal of ground immune steel types. It's ability to muscle past checks with it's absurd power and good movepool makes defensive counterplay inconsistent if not impossible for pretty much most teams, and it's decent natural physical bulk, great typing, and speed can make KOing it more difficult than one thinks.
Well, we all know Focus Blast misses 90% of the time. And Celesteela can 2HKO (after rocks). That's actually a good point about Gravity, though, that shit is ultra powerful, as are the sun team variants with OHKO Weather Ball. But a lot of the time I see Lando's running random moves like SR, CM, RP, and Psychic instead of FB/U-Turn/Gravity. It has a lot of options, I guess. Anyway, my lukewarmness on Landorus-I is more about it struggling to compete with the faster snowball cleaners than it is about it being underpowered in any way - it's definitely a powerful mon that gets to choose what will wall it (if anything).

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 144-169 (45.1 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
Landorus-I is more about it struggling to compete with the faster snowball cleaners than it is about it being underpowered in any way - it's definitely a powerful mon that gets to choose what will wall it (if anything).

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 144-169 (45.1 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Does it struggle really? Earth Power and Sludge Wave are it really needs for coverage like ScarfchomperL100 said. The other 2 moves it is free to pick what it wants. Here's a replay of battle I had yesterday showcasing how a well played Lando-I is almost impossible to stop from forcing kills even against a rain team with Swift Swimmers and Tornadus-T.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1210481866-rgqs8rlxs7v9931pa7d9yt3ytah0i92pw
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
Just because Celesteela does well against Lando I does not mean that Lando I is not broken. Just because it has to use focus miss does not mean it is not broken. Furthermore, Celesteela is a huge momentum sink. Yeah if every team could run Celesteela, Latias, or Cresselia then Lando would be manageable, but that’s unhealthy as heck. It is as broken as it was the last three times it was OU.

Phero on the other hand is super manageable right now. You basically can’t run Life Orb in this meta due to the sheer utility boots brings in the long term. It also has super bad 4MSS. You need CC, but you want Ice Beam, Poison Jab, U Turn, Drill Run, and Spin. Even with LO both offense and balance can handle Phero well, and it was meh against stall last gen anyway. QD sets are garbage don’t use them. While it is a good offensive pivot, it honestly at least in this meta feels very healthy.

Daily reminder though that Scarf Cinderace is the goat in this meta and that it honestly is the best non Genesect revenge killer outside maybe Spectrier.
 
I was thinking, is there anything good that like actually counters Specs Regieleki other than Ground Types? A lot of Scarfed Pokemon aren't able to outspeed Regieleki.
I thought of Assault Vest Regidrago, max attack max sp.defence, and it’s been working really well for me lately. Can sponge hits from a lot more special attackers too. Genesect is a fun one, nailing it with Fire Fang afterwards.
 
I really haven't tested it so 100% theorymon here, sorry, but I might end up forgetting it later and it seems interesting.
With the large amount of U-Turn in the developing metagame, Flame Body has become an interesting way to punish this type of strategy.


Genesect @ Choice Band
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Extreme Speed
- Iron Head / Blaze Kick
- Facade

252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Facade (140 BP) vs. 208 HP / 60 Def Moltres: 221-260 (59.2 - 69.7%) (Without Download)
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 154-181 (39.8 - 46.8%) (Download)
252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 306-361 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (Without Download)


2KO Moltres and decent damage to Sp.Def Heatran. (Luckily I didn't see this guy Volcarona after DLC2.)
You will end up giving up some coverage but Facade can take the opponent off guard.
 
Not sure if this goes here but ive made the perfect gen 8 OU set for blaziken
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Protect
- Swords Dance

And since it can still use speed boost, it can be just formidable it just takes a lil bit to get going with using protect to start getting speed boosts.
 
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Pheromosa @ Expert Belt / Life Orb (haven't decided which one I like better yet)
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Lunge / Throat Chop / Rapid Spin (dependent on your team's needs)

Ice Beam is the main tool of choice here, and it OHKOs Lando-I, Lando-T, and chunks a good number of other ground Pokemon that can switch into Regieleki with no issue. A lot of the time people will just leave their ground mon in because they forget that Pheromosa has Ice Beam, or underestimate the damage it can put out. U-Turn provides the crucial momentum and hits like a truck coming off of Pheromosa's attack. High Jump Kick handles Pokemon like Heatran, Glastrier (who is egregiously underrated right now), Tyranitar, etc). The last slot is a toss-up based on your team's specific needs; Lunge can provide some offensive pressure, but is situational. Throat Chop is a nasty surprise for the Ghost-laden meta and my current preferred choice. Rapid Spin also provides hazard control and also gives a way for Pheromosa to outspeed opposing Regieleki if it gets a Spin on the switch.
These two have surprisingly good synergy with each other. Might I suggest running Close Combat over HJK? Phero got CC this gen and the slight decrease in power over HJK is so much more worth it compared to the egregious recoil chance.
 
Trick Room - An Underestimated Archetype in OU
Part 2: The Abusers

Please read Part One before reading this post - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...cussion-thread-v7.3672210/page-9#post-8640618

In my previous Trick Room post, we went over a multitude of Trick Room setters with some sample sets attached. We are now going to look at some of the best abusers of Trick Room's condition, specifically Pokemon we got in the Crown Tundra, although I will be posting a list afterwords of some pre-CT pokemon that can also be helped heavily by Trick Room.


Glastrier
Stats: 100 / 145 / 130 / 60 / 110 / 30


(Sample Set)
Glastrier @ Life Orb
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat / Swords Dance
- High Horsepower
- Crunch​

One of the best new additions to Trick Room came in the form of Glastrier. Slow as molasses but as thick as a glacier, this Pokemon has a ludicrous 145 base attack, and 100 / 130 / 110 defenses. STAB Icicle Clash under Trick Room hits like a truck, has a great flinch chance, and hits a good portion of the metagame for super effective damage. Additional coverage moves include Close Combat, High Horsepower, and Crunch. His movepool goes deeper with more fringe options such as Megahorn, the combination of Iron Defense / Body Press, and Swords Dance. Glastrier in true Ice type fashion has the ability to snowball thanks to Chilling Neigh acting as a pseudo-variant of the ability Moxie.


Melmetal
Stats: 135 / 143 / 143 / 80 / 65 / 34

(Sample Set)
Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Darkest Lariat
- Ice Punch​

Upon the release of Crown Tundra, Melmetal was returned to OU with a vengeance. While it may seem like it's relatively outclassed and funky in the current meta, it can absolutely flourish under Trick Room. Double Iron Bash now is able to consistently flinch opposing Pokemon while hitting like a truck and breaking Substitutes. Earthquake handles Pokemon like Heatran, while Darkest Lariat and Ice Punch are absolutely great coverage options. Assault Vest is perfect for patching up Melmetal's shoddy 65 Special Defense, and Trick Room already takes care of the speed control issue.


Magmortar
Stats: 75 / 95 / 67 / 125 / 93 / 83


Magmortar @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Scorching Sands​

Magmortar got several awesome new moves this generation, but one that caught my eye, in particular, is Scorching Sands. Now Magmortar no longer needs to rely on the shaky accuracy of Focus Blast to be a threat to Heatran and can nail Pokemon such as Regielektri, Melmetal, Naganadel, and others for super effective damage. Magmortar is unique in this regard because it's a special nuke with Fire / Electric / Ground coverage, something not shared by any other Special Attack focused Pokemon in the tier to this degree. Psychic is my personal filler coverage choice, but it can be substituted depending on your team's specific needs.

Other Slow Pokemon that can benefit from Trick Room being up (along with specific advantages they might have):
Armaldo
(Access to Rocks, Priority, Knock Off, Rock / Bug STAB off of a base 125 Attack, among other options)
Azumarill (Fantastically strong Water / Fairy type with Huge Power, benefits immensely from naturally low 50 Speed and great coverage)
Celesteela (Steel / Flying type with plenty of coverage options and great defensive synergy with a lot of the tier)
Diancie (Buffed in this gen with access to new toys such as Body Press [Coming off of a 150 Defense stat] and Mystical Fire, in addition to existing options such as Diamond Storm, Earth Power, Moonblast, and Power Gem. Can also set up Trick Room itself)
Volcanion (Fire / Water type with a Water Immunity, fantastic coverage, great bulk and a strong Special Attack that can punch holes in your opponent's team)

Additional Setters that I haven't tested:
Literally so many, too many to name. Dig through Team Builder, find some slow, powerful mons and see if they can fit your Trick Room team!​
 
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Not sure if this goes here but ive made the perfect gen 8 OU set for blaziken
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Protect
- Swords Dance

And since it can still use speed boost, it can be just formidable it just takes a lil bit to get going with using protect to start getting speed boosts.
While on paper this set might sound great, there are definitely some issues.

By fitting Protect and Swords Dance you sacrifice any sort of coverage Blaziken can use, letting it be checked even harder by Pokemon such as Slowbro, Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Moltres, Latis, Salamence, Dragonite, Victini, and heck Gyarados and Alolan Marowak, which resist the STAB combination and can easily blow it away with their super effective attacks. Even Toxapex with it's garbage special attack is able to 2HKO it after a round of Life Orb recoil or Stealth Rock damage. The fact that this set is dependent entirely on Recoil and Defense Dropping moves for any sort of damage also just undermines it's already ridiculous bulk even more.

Edit: You also put Blaze as it's ability, instead of the vastly superior Speed Boost
 
Might as well give my two cents on some frequently used Pokémon:

Zygarde: Honestly, as much as I love this Pokémon for obvious reasons (its design hehe), I do think this Pokémon might be ban-worthy. Its great defensive typing paired with its amazing stats and move pool makes it a more than reliable Pokémon to put in work on pretty much any team. It does have its checks and counters like Buzzwole and Clef and even some revengers like Dragapult, but other than its just a more than solid Pokémon that can run a plethora of sets and - again - put in work.

Genesect: This Pokémon is stupid and it deserves a QB. So many sets it can run (mainly Scarf) with great offensive coverage (Ice Beam/Iron Head/Flamethrower). Any Pokémon it cannot beat, it just U-turns out on and gets momentum. The Drives I perceived to be okay, but far less usable than the Scarf or even the Band set.

Lando-I: Another stupid Pokémon in my eyes. This is another Pokémon that can theoretically beat everything with its coverage (strong Fighting, Poison and Psychic moves as well as a Ground-STAB), and is super hard to play around once it's actually in. The main weakness it has is its speed, which is subpar for the tier. But that can be more than made up for with the myriad of U-Turners in the tier as well as good playing (double switching).

Pheromosa: I don't think Pheromosa is that bad to play against (for now). Now that it doesn't have access to Z-Moves, it gets hard-walled by Toxapex. But it's similar to Genesect in the aspect that it just U-Turns on everything it cannot beat. It having miserable bulk and a bad defensive typing makes it susceptible to priority attackers like Rillaboom or Scizor, however, making it far more manageable than Phero's companion Genesect.

Galar-Zapdos: Surprisingly good, but not insanely so. When I initially looked at Galar-Zapdos at its reveal I wasn't really sure it would get much usage, but I was convinced otherwise. The ability it has is great, Defiant being the greatest ability Zapdos ever got and paired with its sublime offensive flying-fighting coverage, it makes for a pretty good balance- and stall-breaker. The most I've been astounded by was the Choice Band set by far, but Leftovers Bulk Up is definitely solid also. Zapdos' below average Speed just means its food for offense, though, being outsped (and killed) by nearly every Pokémon on there.
 
I know I'm not a gen 8 expert, especially since I decided not to play much until the expansion. So with that in mind, as to what I see, I think the top 5 ban-worthy mons currently are Genesect, Lando-I, Zygarde, Naganadel, and Blaziken.
1) The reason for why I chose these, is that well Genesect's move pool diversity, with its +1 spatt/att, has always given it a large advantage within the start of each OU metagame, and this generation is no different. It's essentially what is dominating the metagame.
2) Lando-I, from what I can tell, really hasn't been much different from the previous generations as well, except it's movepool of course really isn't anything to compare to that of Genesects. However, Lando's sheer force ability, in combination with it's speed tier allows it to challenge many pokemon, however we now have the benefit of having more pokemon with a larger speed tier to revenge kill Lando. I still think it's unhealthy though.
3) Zygarde's defensive bulk in conjunction with the lack of hpice has made it painful for most players to deal with it, packing sub+glare+coil/ddance with thousand arrows. Typically you need to think about the turns leading into Zygarde entering battle, and play around those turns, which can be painful on bad predictions. However, you always could run something like Kyurem Black, which I could argue being one of the largest threats currently. 4) Now Naganadel is typically a nastyplot setup user, with some players running the scarf varient to outspeed threats like Regieleki/Pheramosa, although I feel the nastyplot set is better. After a kill is secured, the speed stat raises, and having a massive spattack with draco + sludgewave+flame coverage makes it a tough mon to deal with. You could revenge kill it with things like sash Excadrill, but I mean it's not the best option by any means.
5) Blaziken is well, Blaziken. It's always been able to speed boost the last few generations, and it's SD lifeorb set threatens nearly everything within the metagame, making it challenging to counter. You typically are forced to have it get chipped by lifeorb, and revenge kill it with espeed/sucker if it sets up on a switch/or a mon that isn't efficient in dealing with Blaziken.
* On the topic of pokemon such as Pheramosa, currently Pheramosa feels pretty underwhelming compared to the other mons as stated from other previous players. Its a great sweeper and spinner, with many players running lifeorb, or heavydutyboots. The reason why I didn't include it, is because even though its offensive capabilities are strong, I don't believe it compares to the other mons that I stated previously. This opinion however, may change after the metagame settles with the removal of banworthy pokemon. Toxapex completely walls Pheramosa, but I know that not everyone wants Tox on every team. I'm sure there are other ways of countering it, but again I haven't played as much as a lot of other players. I do still believe it is a threat, and I wouldn't be surprised seeing it dominate the metagame, I just feel that the other threats outclass it currently.
 
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I'm a man of few words

Regieleki is going to Ubers, right?
If you don't have Ground Type/Ability that absorbs Electric moves it can spam Volt Switch the whole game, and strong volt switchs at that. Isn't this exactly why Dracovish got banned? You could run Water Absorb sure, but it's overcentralizing the game around it.

And it has 548 Speed.
 

clean

is a Tiering Contributor
OMPL Champion
I'm a man of few words

Regieleki is going to Ubers, right?
If you don't have Ground Type/Ability that absorbs Electric moves it can spam Volt Switch the whole game, and strong volt switchs at that. Isn't this exactly why Dracovish got banned? You could run Water Absorb sure, but it's overcentralizing the game around it.

And it has 548 Speed.
I disagree. It is a whole lot easier to add a ground type/volt absorb mon to your team then a water absorb mon, which is pretty uncommon. While Vish usually only clicked one move, it did have considerably more coverage than Regieleki. The fact that Regieleki is completely walled (bar explosion, which removes the problem) by ground types makes me think banning it to ubers is not necessary.
 

Finchinator

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My thoughts:
  • :Genesect: is easily one of the best Pokemon in the early metagame. Aside from Heatran, there are no true counters. You can even find some exploits to cheese past it, but we can easily enough give Heatran the benefit of the doubt. Sure, there are situational checks. Toxapex handles Choice Banded variants, Blissey, Rotom-Heat, and Volcarona check specially oriented variants, and Choice Scarf sets are limited to a non-boosted (beyond Download) locked-in move that makes checking this Genesect is oftentimes possible. With this said, that is about all the metagame has to handle Genesect. In the brief history of Crown Tundra SS OU, Genesect has U-turned its way to victory on countless occasions with the Choice Band set as is. Throw in the prospect of it running through a relatively unprepared team with various coverage moves or being the best pure revenge killer in the metagame and you get Genesect. Need I say more? Hopefully not, it's broken.
  • :Naganadel: is also a potent offensive threat. A simple Nasty Plot + 3A set with Life Orb does the trick. Draco Meteor, Sludge Wave, and Fire Blast combine to cover everything short of Heatran. Yes, Heatran can check Naganadel well, especially when it is healthy earlier in games. However, aside from Heatran, SDef Tyranitar, Thunder Wave + Teleport Blissey, and AV/Occa Berry Melmetal/Magearna, nothing actually stands up to Naganadel particularly well. It can be revenge killed by Ditto and Choice Banded Genesect's Extreeme Speed, but even this is a limited pool as Naganadel's breaking can snowball into sweeps with Beast Boost effortlessly. I think that given how often people spam Heatran, perhaps some posters are less aware of how potent Naganadel is; you can even argue that it is silly not to use Heatran on many bulky-offense and balance structures in this metagame with Naganadel, Genesect, and others running around town.
  • :Pheromosa: is something I have been on the fence about for a bit. I feel like it gets out of hand later in games pretty easily, which is no surprise considering how likely it is for Fairy types like Tapu Fini to get worn out over time. If you are using Toxapex or the right Clefable set for the job, then you are in luck, but these Pokemon -- particularly Clefable -- have seen better days in this generation. I feel like versatility does not favor Pheromosa too much as special sets have not seen much usage, but it does still have a servicable movepool to the extent that it can handpick its checks-and-counters most of the time. This coupled with an unforgiving offensive profile, leading to many games snowballing out of control and offensive teams facing dire circumstances from uncomfortably early spots in games, makes me believe that Pheromosa may be too much already in this young metagame. I am not going to go all-the-way out on a limb and say it should be banned yet like Naganadel and Genesect, but it is surely on its way.
  • :Kyurem-Black: is something that I cannot imagine will hang around forever either, but I view it as less pressing of an issue than these three. It is incredibly bulky, which makes it an exemplary set-up sweeping option. Dragon Dance, Icicle Spear, Fusion Bolt, and your choice of Substitute, Roost, Earth Power, or whatever other move you would like does the trick well. Be it with support of screens, Electric Terrain, or entry hazards, Kyurem-Black finds a way to thrive. It can be revenge killed by most common Choice Scarf users and checked comfortably by a handful of strong Steel types, but otherwise we are limited to some soft, situational checks among some Fairy types (Magearna or Clefable, for example -- neither is a counter by any means) or miscellaneous Pokemon (Glastrier and Rotom-Heat, for example -- neither can be relied upon long-term). I think this is far more counterplay than Genesect or Naganadel may have, but it still may be insufficient. I think that we can use the coming days to determine this and I also believe the input provided from the upcoming playerbase survey will go a long way towards deciding the fate of Kyurem-Black.
  • :Zygarde: and :Landorus: are two dynamic Ground types with very different profiles in the metagame. Zygarde is a bulky set-up sweeper that ranks up there as one of the most annoying Pokemon to encounter ever. On the flip side, Landorus's sheer strength allows for immense breaking power, especially with Gravity and a plethora of coverage options. Zygarde is susceptible to a lot of the offensive pressure we see in fairly turbulent metagame and Landorus is still finding its footing in the current climate I feel, but both have shown some strokes of ridiculous brokenness when used properly I feel. I am not ready to call for either to be quickbanned yet, but I think we are well on our way to including these two in the discussion.
  • :Blaziken: is still a potent offensive presence, but I do not view it as one of the pressing issues right now. :Melmetal: is underwhelming on the surface because not too many people use it, but it is actually pretty good -- not broken though. :Cinderace: and :Magearna: plagued the DLC1 metagame, but lack the same presence in this metagame thus far, with Cinderace being virtually nonexistent in my games thus far surprisingly.
I'm a man of few words

Regieleki is going to Ubers, right?
If you don't have Ground Type/Ability that absorbs Electric moves it can spam Volt Switch the whole game, and strong volt switchs at that. Isn't this exactly why Dracovish got banned? You could run Water Absorb sure, but it's overcentralizing the game around it.

And it has 548 Speed.
Absolutely not. If you did not run an Electric immunity or AV Grass in the prior metagame, Choice Specs Magnezone ran through teams with ease, but you hardly saw people complaining. Why? Because running something to deter spam of boosted Volt Switches has been a necessary part of teambuilding for generations now.

Landorus, Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, Zygarde, Excadrill, Swampert, Hippowdon, Zeraora, Mamoswine, Rhyperior, and even fringe options like Nidoqueen or Thundurus-Therian all are immune to Electric moves and would be viable regardless of Regieleki. The list was nowhere near this for Dracovish and Dracovish also had a lot of other things going for it such as bulk, non-STAB attacks, and a respectable defensive typing.

If anything, Regieleki is going to eventually drop down a bit in usage once new-toy-syndrome wears off, unless a new exploit to enable it becomes prevalent. It is only capable of thriving without massive support when facing a poorly constructed team as it stands. Finally, 548 speed is not much of a selling point when it is not able to take advantage of it far too often to be considered remotely ban- or suspect-worthy.
 
I'm a man of few words

Regieleki is going to Ubers, right?
If you don't have Ground Type/Ability that absorbs Electric moves it can spam Volt Switch the whole game, and strong volt switchs at that. Isn't this exactly why Dracovish got banned?
List of OU-viable electric immunities:
Hippowdon, Rhyperior, Excadrill, Lando-I, Lando-T, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Quagsire, Swampert, Garchomp, Mamoswine, Diggersby, Zygarde, Thundurus-T, Zeraora, Marowak-A

List of OU-viable water immunities:
Volcanion, Mantine, Gastrodon, Seismitoad?, Jellicent???, Vaporeon?????

The difference is clear. If you've built a team that doesn't have an electric immunity, that's on you. There's plenty of strong ground types and volt absorbers that can fit a wide variety of team styles. You have more than enough choices. All of the water immunities, meanwhile, are sub-par choices, with all of them except for Volcanion being incredibly passive, and Volcanion being very slow and generally outclassed.
 
Trick Room - An Underestimated Archetype in OU
Part 2: The Abusers

Please read Part One before reading this post - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...cussion-thread-v7.3672210/page-9#post-8640618

In my previous Trick Room post, we went over a multitude of Trick Room setters with some sample sets attached. We are now going to look at some of the best abusers of Trick Room's condition, specifically Pokemon we got in the Crown Tundra, although I will be posting a list afterwords of some pre-CT pokemon that can also be helped heavily by Trick Room.


Glastrier
Stats: 100 / 145 / 130 / 60 / 110 / 30


(Sample Set)
Glastrier @ Life Orb
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat / Swords Dance
- High Horsepower
- Crunch​

One of the best new additions to Trick Room came in the form of Glastrier. Slow as molasses but as thick as a glacier, this Pokemon has a ludicrous 145 base attack, and 100 / 130 / 110 defenses. STAB Icicle Clash under Trick Room hits like a truck, has a great flinch chance, and hits a good portion of the metagame for super effective damage. Additional coverage moves include Close Combat, High Horsepower, and Crunch. His movepool goes deeper with more fringe options such as Megahorn, the combination of Iron Defense / Body Press, and Swords Dance. Glastrier in true Ice type fashion has the ability to snowball thanks to Chilling Neigh acting as a pseudo-variant of the ability Moxie.


Melmetal
Stats: 135 / 143 / 143 / 80 / 65 / 34

(Sample Set)
Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Darkest Lariat
- Ice Punch​

Upon the release of Crown Tundra, Melmetal was returned to OU with a vengeance. While it may seem like it's relatively outclassed and funky in the current meta, it can absolutely flourish under Trick Room. Double Iron Bash now is able to consistently flinch opposing Pokemon while hitting like a truck and breaking Substitutes. Earthquake handles Pokemon like Heatran, while Darkest Lariat and Ice Punch are absolutely great coverage options. Assault Vest is perfect for patching up Melmetal's shoddy 65 Special Defense, and Trick Room already takes care of the speed control issue.


Magmortar
Stats: 75 / 95 / 67 / 125 / 93 / 83


Magmortar @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Scorching Sands​

Magmortar got several awesome new moves this generation, but one that caught my eye, in particular, is Scorching Sands. Now Magmortar no longer needs to rely on the shaky accuracy of Focus Blast to be a threat to Heatran and can nail Pokemon such as Regielektri, Melmetal, Naganadel, and others for super effective damage. Magmortar is unique in this regard because it's a special nuke with Fire / Electric / Ground coverage, something not shared by any other Special Attack focused Pokemon in the tier to this degree. Psychic is my personal filler coverage choice, but it can be substituted depending on your team's specific needs.

Other Slow Pokemon that can benefit from Trick Room being up (along with specific advantages they might have):
Armaldo
(Access to Rocks, Priority, Knock Off, Rock / Bug STAB off of a base 125 Attack, among other options)
Azumarill (Fantastically strong Water / Fairy type with Huge Power, benefits immensely from naturally low 50 Speed and great coverage)
Celesteela (Steel / Flying type with plenty of coverage options and great defensive synergy with a lot of the tier)
Diancie (Buffed in this gen with access to new toys such as Body Press [Coming off of a 150 Defense stat] and Mystical Fire, in addition to existing options such as Diamond Storm, Earth Power, Moonblast, and Power Gem. Can also set up Trick Room itself)
Volcanion (Fire / Water type with a Water Immunity, fantastic coverage, great bulk and a strong Special Attack that can punch holes in your opponent's team)

Additional Setters that I haven't tested:
Literally so many, too many to name. Dig through Team Builder, find some slow, powerful mons and see if they can fit your Trick Room team!​
A decent start to trick room but nowhere near fully optimized.
The only reason I'm going to post this was because you posted a "guide" to trick room in the new meta, but the team you posted could use improvement.

For one, Glastrier should have SD, it needs it to break teams with its stab. Crunch is a useless move on Glastrier since ghosts should die to +2 icicle crash anyways, or are just weak to one of its other coverage moves.

Second, Melmetal needs a better moveset. Trick room is not a architype that needs the longevity of assault vest. It needs to maximize KO's under trick room and AV is possibly the worst item to do this; the item should be life orb or choice band to really bring the hurt. Darkest lariat is an OK move, but is far inferior to TPunch which melmetal needs to get past flying steels and moltres. Ice punch could also be superpower to help with ferrothorn and it chunks rotoms harder before being forced to switch, but ice punch is better against zap. Its a give and take.

Third, Magmortar is bad. Use awak instead. Sure its not a special attacker, but as an offensive fire type under tr it is much, much better. Magmortar is novelty, use it if you feel like it. awak is better, use it if you want to maximize win potential.

You also linked to trick room setters. These choices are also sub optimal in my opinion.

First, audino is worse than p2. Why? Knock off, regenerator, and wish are all tools you want on teams that look to play the long game. Trick room is hyper offense. Getting trick room and abusing it is the #1 priority. And since trick room is negative priority, you want fat mons that are good at getting the trick room up as reliably as possible, even if the poke must sacrifice itself to do so. P2 is much better at tanking the hit and getting trick room up in the first place. It also has usable special attack so it can threaten certain pokemon under trick room. Recover also makes it harder to force out in scenarios where the opponent is trying to stall trick room turns so p2 can survive to set up a second time. Most importantly of all, it gets a pivot move. Audino isn't bad, but its strengths don't serve it well in trick room.

Second, slowking g should be something else. Probably magearna. Magearna has a better typing and a similar offensive presence, with superior power and snowball potential. It doesn't check fighters, but slowking doesn't do too well either.

Stakataka is fine, but it should run eq. If you put awak on the team you can put sr on that and free up space for eq/body press on stakataka. Also stone edge should be used over rock slide. A 10% better accuracy is not better than 25 more base power. The flinch chance is negligible.


Overall, the team you posted is unique and fun, but not spectacular. Even your movesets are pretty weird; why so much dark type coverage? As for the mon picks, I just think the tempo of trick room is misunderstood. Trick room plays with a sacrifice heavy hyper offense like pace. Regenerator and utility moves are not as valuable of traits on these faster teamstyles. The ability for something like cress to take any one hit, set up tr, and pseudo pivot with lunar dance is more valuable than longevity. As for the title, its hard to say trick room is "underrated". "Inconsistent" or "matchup reliant" seems more accurate to me.
 
I believe quickbanning would be a lot easier to justify if we had access to win-rate stats. In particular, win-rate stats that disregard when the same Pokémon is also on the other team (since that will trend every popular Pokémon closer to 50% then it should be).

While this stat isn’t the only thing to take into consideration, it is a staple in many comp esports when it comes to debating balancing. While mobas like LoL and games like Overwatch are prime examples I want to direct attention to Clash Royale.

In that game, the devs want their cards to be in the 45% to 55% winrate range (they also look at usage stats). When they aren’t, they will nerf/buff the card in question.

Obviously we can’t do that in Pokémon. However, think of how easy it would be to justify banning Genesect for example, if we could point to it having a 60% win-rate in upper ladder play. It’s about as objective as we can get. Again, I am not advocating for win-rate to be the only thing taken into consideration.

Just ranting a little because iirc the usage stats people are actually working on implementing that.

on an unrelated note, I believe clef or Toxapex should have been banned last gen
 
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Trick Room - An Underestimated Archetype in OU
Part 2: The Abusers

Please read Part One before reading this post - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...cussion-thread-v7.3672210/page-9#post-8640618

In my previous Trick Room post, we went over a multitude of Trick Room setters with some sample sets attached. We are now going to look at some of the best abusers of Trick Room's condition, specifically Pokemon we got in the Crown Tundra, although I will be posting a list afterwords of some pre-CT pokemon that can also be helped heavily by Trick Room.


Glastrier
Stats: 100 / 145 / 130 / 60 / 110 / 30


(Sample Set)
Glastrier @ Life Orb
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat / Swords Dance
- High Horsepower
- Crunch​

One of the best new additions to Trick Room came in the form of Glastrier. Slow as molasses but as thick as a glacier, this Pokemon has a ludicrous 145 base attack, and 100 / 130 / 110 defenses. STAB Icicle Clash under Trick Room hits like a truck, has a great flinch chance, and hits a good portion of the metagame for super effective damage. Additional coverage moves include Close Combat, High Horsepower, and Crunch. His movepool goes deeper with more fringe options such as Megahorn, the combination of Iron Defense / Body Press, and Swords Dance. Glastrier in true Ice type fashion has the ability to snowball thanks to Chilling Neigh acting as a pseudo-variant of the ability Moxie.


Melmetal
Stats: 135 / 143 / 143 / 80 / 65 / 34

(Sample Set)
Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Darkest Lariat
- Ice Punch​

Upon the release of Crown Tundra, Melmetal was returned to OU with a vengeance. While it may seem like it's relatively outclassed and funky in the current meta, it can absolutely flourish under Trick Room. Double Iron Bash now is able to consistently flinch opposing Pokemon while hitting like a truck and breaking Substitutes. Earthquake handles Pokemon like Heatran, while Darkest Lariat and Ice Punch are absolutely great coverage options. Assault Vest is perfect for patching up Melmetal's shoddy 65 Special Defense, and Trick Room already takes care of the speed control issue.


Magmortar
Stats: 75 / 95 / 67 / 125 / 93 / 83


Magmortar @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Scorching Sands​

Magmortar got several awesome new moves this generation, but one that caught my eye, in particular, is Scorching Sands. Now Magmortar no longer needs to rely on the shaky accuracy of Focus Blast to be a threat to Heatran and can nail Pokemon such as Regielektri, Melmetal, Naganadel, and others for super effective damage. Magmortar is unique in this regard because it's a special nuke with Fire / Electric / Ground coverage, something not shared by any other Special Attack focused Pokemon in the tier to this degree. Psychic is my personal filler coverage choice, but it can be substituted depending on your team's specific needs.

Other Slow Pokemon that can benefit from Trick Room being up (along with specific advantages they might have):
Armaldo
(Access to Rocks, Priority, Knock Off, Rock / Bug STAB off of a base 125 Attack, among other options)
Azumarill (Fantastically strong Water / Fairy type with Huge Power, benefits immensely from naturally low 50 Speed and great coverage)
Celesteela (Steel / Flying type with plenty of coverage options and great defensive synergy with a lot of the tier)
Diancie (Buffed in this gen with access to new toys such as Body Press [Coming off of a 150 Defense stat] and Mystical Fire, in addition to existing options such as Diamond Storm, Earth Power, Moonblast, and Power Gem. Can also set up Trick Room itself)
Volcanion (Fire / Water type with a Water Immunity, fantastic coverage, great bulk and a strong Special Attack that can punch holes in your opponent's team)

Additional Setters that I haven't tested:
Literally so many, too many to name. Dig through Team Builder, find some slow, powerful mons and see if they can fit your Trick Room team!​
Trick Room - An Underestimated Archetype in OU
Part 2: The Abusers

Please read Part One before reading this post - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...cussion-thread-v7.3672210/page-9#post-8640618

In my previous Trick Room post, we went over a multitude of Trick Room setters with some sample sets attached. We are now going to look at some of the best abusers of Trick Room's condition, specifically Pokemon we got in the Crown Tundra, although I will be posting a list afterwords of some pre-CT pokemon that can also be helped heavily by Trick Room.


Glastrier
Stats: 100 / 145 / 130 / 60 / 110 / 30


(Sample Set)
Glastrier @ Life Orb
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat / Swords Dance
- High Horsepower
- Crunch​

One of the best new additions to Trick Room came in the form of Glastrier. Slow as molasses but as thick as a glacier, this Pokemon has a ludicrous 145 base attack, and 100 / 130 / 110 defenses. STAB Icicle Clash under Trick Room hits like a truck, has a great flinch chance, and hits a good portion of the metagame for super effective damage. Additional coverage moves include Close Combat, High Horsepower, and Crunch. His movepool goes deeper with more fringe options such as Megahorn, the combination of Iron Defense / Body Press, and Swords Dance. Glastrier in true Ice type fashion has the ability to snowball thanks to Chilling Neigh acting as a pseudo-variant of the ability Moxie.


Melmetal
Stats: 135 / 143 / 143 / 80 / 65 / 34

(Sample Set)
Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Darkest Lariat
- Ice Punch​

Upon the release of Crown Tundra, Melmetal was returned to OU with a vengeance. While it may seem like it's relatively outclassed and funky in the current meta, it can absolutely flourish under Trick Room. Double Iron Bash now is able to consistently flinch opposing Pokemon while hitting like a truck and breaking Substitutes. Earthquake handles Pokemon like Heatran, while Darkest Lariat and Ice Punch are absolutely great coverage options. Assault Vest is perfect for patching up Melmetal's shoddy 65 Special Defense, and Trick Room already takes care of the speed control issue.


Magmortar
Stats: 75 / 95 / 67 / 125 / 93 / 83


Magmortar @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Scorching Sands​

Magmortar got several awesome new moves this generation, but one that caught my eye, in particular, is Scorching Sands. Now Magmortar no longer needs to rely on the shaky accuracy of Focus Blast to be a threat to Heatran and can nail Pokemon such as Regielektri, Melmetal, Naganadel, and others for super effective damage. Magmortar is unique in this regard because it's a special nuke with Fire / Electric / Ground coverage, something not shared by any other Special Attack focused Pokemon in the tier to this degree. Psychic is my personal filler coverage choice, but it can be substituted depending on your team's specific needs.

Other Slow Pokemon that can benefit from Trick Room being up (along with specific advantages they might have):
Armaldo
(Access to Rocks, Priority, Knock Off, Rock / Bug STAB off of a base 125 Attack, among other options)
Azumarill (Fantastically strong Water / Fairy type with Huge Power, benefits immensely from naturally low 50 Speed and great coverage)
Celesteela (Steel / Flying type with plenty of coverage options and great defensive synergy with a lot of the tier)
Diancie (Buffed in this gen with access to new toys such as Body Press [Coming off of a 150 Defense stat] and Mystical Fire, in addition to existing options such as Diamond Storm, Earth Power, Moonblast, and Power Gem. Can also set up Trick Room itself)
Volcanion (Fire / Water type with a Water Immunity, fantastic coverage, great bulk and a strong Special Attack that can punch holes in your opponent's team)

Additional Setters that I haven't tested:
Literally so many, too many to name. Dig through Team Builder, find some slow, powerful mons and see if they can fit your Trick Room team!​
I appreciate the effort but there are many flaws in this guide.
You mentioned shits like magmortar and volcanion as "abuser" but not alolawak..
Alolawak is still the best trick room attacker behind melmetal, it can abuse of two highly spammable stabs in the form of poltergeist and flare blitz, poltergeist or shadow bone hit the vast majority of the tier for neutral damage coming from an huge attack stat.
Alolawak gets sword dance and earthquake/bonemerang too in order to pressure very fat teams and toxapex, and it has a fantastic offensive typing.
AV on melmetal in trick room teams is an abomination to be honest, with choice band you can literally OHKO/2HKO the entire tier and if you fail at doing this for some strange reason you can flinch the opponent with its extremely powerful stab.
Melmetal is the best trick room abuser right now with very few doubts.
I find Stakataka a bit underwhelming in this gen, sure it is a nightmare vs offense especially when it packs air baloon to bypass is x4 weakness and it has a very good snowballing potential, but vs fatter teams it seems a deadweight most of the times, it really needs its old z-move to bypass certain teams.

Trick room is a very underrated archetype right now and It certainly will be better when some shits get banned.
 
1603877267859.png
This I agree needs to be Quick banned. I don't know what we were expecting dropping it. U-turn is just such a strong pivoting move, and when you have something with only 1 weakness, high stats, STAB on it, mixed offenses, its just too much. Genesect pretty much is doing what it always did every time we opened it up, except we have even fewer answers atm. I don't see any counterplay to this and fully support a QB

1603877462756.png
I don't think its broken, but I don't think its healthy either. Idk this one is so confusing to me because it does have a fuckhuge weakness in its coverage, but in practice it mandates grounds/shedinja to not be rolled by it. The only reason I think we're ok is due to grounds being good mons in general (compared to vish where waters even were rolled by it, so only water absorbers/storm drainers worked), but I can see it being really oppressive later on. I love this mon tho.

1603877749429.png
I was worried about this but I havent seen it much. I think its still really strong, but I'd sleep on it too when genesect exist so I don't blame people overlooking it. Genesect is just superior to run on most teams and stacking these two doesn't provide that much synergy imo. I'd leave it alone for right now.

1603877855961.png
This one I might say something controversal.. it IS broken, but I think a lot of that has to do with how pressured we are in teambuilder atm to deal with the other problems. Tyranitar/Heatran/Blissey/Chansey are great checks to this that can cripple naga or its teammates while being really good pokemon to use in general.. problem is why the fuck you running t-tar over hippo with genesect and regi around, and heatran is wore down without good recovery by all the u-turning going around. Blissey gets wore down by U-turns as well. Spikes is a nice tool for wearing down heatran and the blobs inbetween all that too. IMO, naga shouldn't be one of the first QBs, it should either be in the 2nd wave of QBs depending how much better teambuilder opens up, or suspect tested over QB. Naga feels like a more extreme case of the isle of armor volcarona scenario, high elo was wanting to QB volc then we removed magearna and things settled. I'd like genesect, kyu-b, and lando-i gone before naga, after that teambuilding looks way easier.. maybe naga would need to go after those two as well but I'd prioritize gene, kyu-b, and lando, then see where naga falls.

1603878359478.png
Ok, I'm not saying this thing is, or isn't broken... but does anyone have a suggestion on counters for this? Cause rn it feels like the only option is to revenge kill it. I cannot find any switchins for latios without taking a chunk or getting smacked by coverage.

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 357-420 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 180-214 (46.6 - 55.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 182-216 (56.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
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View attachment 285711 Ok, I'm not saying this thing is, or isn't broken... but does anyone have a suggestion on counters for this? Cause rn it feels like the only option is to revenge kill it. I cannot find any switchins for latios without taking a chunk or getting smacked by coverage.

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 357-420 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 180-214 (46.6 - 55.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 182-216 (56.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Have you tried using AV :tyranitar: ? P good mon.
 

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