With all due respect, doesn't Specs Xerneas have almost the same KOs outside of Chansey? With much more attacking utility.
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Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 4 - POWER (Dynamax Banned)
- Thread starter Nayrz
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The only advantage I can see is that Band OHKOes Ho-Oh with Rock Slide, while Specs Xerneas can only 2HKO with Thunder (and in sun forget it). Honestly I can't really see a reason to use Band Xerneas over Zacian other than the surprise factor - Zacian can smash Ho-Oh with Wild Charge anyway.
The Meta as it is right now, is completely unhealthy, does not have or even allow creativity anywhere, and truthfully something needs to be done about it. To understand how constrictive this meta, let me show you the three things i think are problematic in this tier right now.
First is Zacian. This pokemon already is extremely restrictive in the teambuilder, forcing one of two pokemon on you, being NecrozmaDM, Quagsire, or Ditto. However, Necrozma, the obviously better pokemon overall, is not exactly safe from Zacian. There are two ways Zacian can force itself through Necrozma. Either it picks an SD three attacks set, with SD Close combat behemoth and play rough/wild charge. +3 close combat from adamant Zacian, which is now the standard thanks to Calyrex, does 67-91%. After it clicks SD, you can either Sunsteel for damage and allow revenge killing from either a scarfer or Calyrex, or thunder wave and exchange your dusk mane for Zacian. Sunsteel is not ideal as you don't even kill it, and it can potentially double in for another pokemon to claim. Thunder wave is more ideal as you effectively kill it back with a Twave, but trading zacian isn't ideal in the slightest either, as you open up Geomancy Xerneas to sweep you, because Necrozma is the best answer to both of them. However, it also can lose to the Assurance set. The way Assurance works is that it does double damage if the opponent has taken damage before you used that attack that turn, which includes entry hazards like rocks or spikes. If you manage to catch Necrozma on the switchin when you click it, it drops to Assurance + CC 100% of the time, even if your max max impish. Wild charge is less likely to kill, but Necrozma generally cannot afford to go max max either, because it needs minimum 36 speed to outspeed Zacian after a twave if its adamant, which lowers you to 224+. You also want sp def for xerneas, so you can lower it even further, though it's not required like it was in DLC2.
This is just 2 sets though, and Zacian has way more than just 2. It has it's Agility set, which is a great cleaner, and it helped out by the fact it does not need a single point of speed investment, and can just run max hp. Which can do some nutty things, like swallow a origin pulse from scarf Kyogre. This set can mow through people who rely on Calyrex to revenge kill it, which is a common last resort if your Necrozma or quagsire has bit the dust. This set usually will have Agility Behemoth Close combat and a bunch of choices in the final slot. Wild charge for ho-oh, Play rough for zygarde-100, Crunch over CC if you fear lunala for some reason, and also Fire fang if you have sun support i guess, but realistically its Wild Charge or Play Rough.
It also has one more set that sounds cursed but is actually really good and still as effective as the agility set. The Restalk 2 attacks set. This sounds weird, but it's honestly a fantastic Xerneas counter, and solid switchin to pokemon like eternatus, and yveltal, and removes some of zacians main weaknesses, which are status and longevity.
It can also swallow a scarf Kyogre water spout and do 73-87% minimum with an uninvested play rough. It's speed is also great because it naturally creeps standard 330 speed eternatus without investment. I'll drop some calcs below, but this set is actually really good.
You may have noticed I've never mentioned Quagsire past the first sentence, and that's because Zacian cannot break it unless it runs solar blade. Which is plausible but it's not reliable enough to mention. It can be broken if you can knock it off, but most people won't let you do that. However, the issue with quagsire is that your forced to recover after you switch in, and thats free entry for another dangerous mon, making quagsire a momentum killer and not exactly great at countering much besides Zacian. Zygarde can just glare or run toxic which i've seen running around, and beat it 1v1, zekrom has teravolt, Rayquaza can and should run draco on DD sets. Groudon is the only other one thats pretty much walled but if they have toxic your boned.
Zacian just forces an incredible strain on both the builder and the battle, and even if you beat zacian its rare that it hasn't done irreversable damage to your team that Xerneas doesnt just win as soon as it Geomancy's. That's why i consider Zacian broken. In general, zacian is just 1 flinch, one crit, or defense drop or one dodge away from straight up 6-0ing you on its own, and it's just incredibly unhealthy. You have to be so careful against zacian in every game that it's simply so easy to overwhelm you because you HAVE to go necrozma or quag. There's no ifs about it, if you don't something dies, and that forces so much strain on teambuilding that removes creativity in most cases, since this mon FORCES you to have dusk mane or Quagsire, or you simply lose to it on the spot.
As for the last ditch efforts, Full HP ho-oh can stomach a wild charge and put it down, but your losing bout 90% of your ho-oh, which can be reversed since its a ho-oh, but its not ideal. Groudon can stomach any 1 shot at full and kill it back, but both of these can simply miss and now you extra lose. Eternats can do the same if it's been chipped down to around 40%, but losing eternatus isn't ideal either since now kyogre can have fun with your team and is now very hard to manage, but if it's gotten an SD all this is invalidated. That's why Zacian is so dumb, before it was managable since even if you take it down, it didn't completely open up your team to atleast SOMETHING before you took it down. On it's own it's already questionable, but with everything else coming in its very clear this pokemon is just not healthy for the tier.
Next pokemon I feel is broken is this dumb horse. While this pokemon is not as absurd as Zacian in my eyes, i still feel it's an unhealthy presence to the meta. This pokemon also has multiple sets, like zacian, that change its soft checks that aren't a certain Y bird. The checks it has are Blissey, Yveltal, Tyranitar, Umbreon, and technically Mandibuzz.
Now, this may seem like a decent list, until you look at calyrex can do. If it's specs, Umbreon and blissey are ruined for the rest of the game, and blissey can also just take like 59% min to max max blissey, which isnt a good spread anyway, oh and TTar also gets ruined, unless your running fling rest snarl ttar, which is so beyond terrible but if you have to use that set to comfortably check a pokemon properly shows just how centralizing and broken it is.
Nothing else can really swallow a +1 specs hit, besides literally full HP Ho-oh with 52 spdef, but even then you aren't killing it back with sacred fire or brave bird, so you aren't saved from it either, you can whirlwind, but thats delaying the pain for later, unless you can get another sweeper going before it comes back, but most won't let you do that. Not even spdef Zacian is safe from +1 either, that thing gives a 31% chance to just ohko at +1 specs, and rocks make it 68% chance, while 1 spike is an ohko. Eternatus just dies with a 50% roll at full, and a pure ohko after rocks, so yea you lose if it gets +1 as specs if yveltal is dead. Calyrex also has leaf storm as coverage, so if you have ttar, your not completely safe, but as leaf storm is fairly rare, its not something you need to fear too much.
That's not its only set though, The Subseed set is capable of setting up on yveltal, unless it runs bloody snarl. Blissey is forced into a stalemate, as nether can properly hit eachother, unless your running shadow ball blissey. Which, like i said with ttar, if you have to run shadow ball on blissey because its one of the only ways to check it is not healthy whatsoever. Yveltal being forced to run snarl on literally every set is already bad enough, but its also not able to run offensive with snarl either, because it needs the sp def or it can easily get overwhelmed.
It also has the scarf set, which completely throws out the idea of revenge killing it with scarfers like Kyogre or Xerneas, which is sometimes a backup last ditch to stop Calyrex from dumpstering your team. It has the privelege of running Modest, which changes its role from pure breaker and revenge killer to breaker and pure revenge killer, and you aren't able to really tell on preview, because it's so slappable on most teams, which all really look the same besides webs HO, because of these 2.
It's still not done though, we have the nasty plot 3 attacks set, which is more threatening than before as some yveltal have stopped running sucker in favor of foul play snarl roost taunt/fog/u turn/toxic. This set isn't as big as the first 3 right now, but it's still used a bit and deserves mention, as it's good at breaking through yveltal if you've managed to toxic it or weaken it down to around half. If you have, since draining kiss recovers you pretty much to full, no scarfer besides spout ogre is going to kill it.
Alot of people i've seen have said, bro what about shadow sneak and sucker punch bro, just use those?!?1. Let's take a look at the members of pokemon who get these moves who have any revelence.
Sucker Punch:
Yveltal
Marshadow (Never using it)
Shedinja (Never using it)
Urshifu (Stretch)
Cinderace (Stretch)
Dragapult (SUPER stretch)
Shadow Sneak:
Giratina-Altered (Never gonna use it, also stretch)
Giratina-Origin
Marshadow
Shedinja
In this list, only yveltal can switch in properly, while both Giratina, Marshadow and Shedinja and getting completely smashed. Shedinja can switch into psyshock if you have balls of steel, but most times it's not effective. Giratina's have no reliable recovery, and is threatened out by yveltal. Marshadow is walled by Zzygarde, and Eternatus but less Eternatus as they have begun running spdef so life orb poltergeist is doing like 50. Shedinja is vulnerable to alot and takes alot of risk using it because you can easily just die to random tech toxic's or will-o-wisps, super effective moves, or just ttar sand. Plus alot of mons just ignore Wonder Guard, such as Zekrom, Reshiram, Sunsteel strike Necrozma, or the kyurem forms. Btw giratina altered sneak doesn't even kill so yea.
Truthfully, i'd prefer sending Zacian off to suspect test first, then see if calyrex is more managable, because it is worth seeing. But i do feel it's questionable if it should be allowed in the tier.
This final one is way less important, but i'd like to discuss Glare as the final point. I understand it's way less broken, but glare is so far and away the best move in the entire game.
Let's look at the pros. First of all, it's a thunder wave that cannot miss. That already puts it above twave, but it has more things, It also is not an electric type move, so you can paralyze ground types aswell. On top of that, it also has more PP than thunder wave for some reason, so it's better in PP stall wars with a certain Gothic demon, or drawn out games in general.
Cons are two points, first is that like thunder wave, you cannot paralyze electric types, but because this move is attached to zygarde, not a single electric type is going to switch in, especially since thousand arrows can ignore levitate, removing Rotom's as an option. The second point is it's distribution, which is limited to snakes and Druddigon.
I'm going to draw a comparison here, and compare it to ADV sand veil Cacturne. However, unlike cacturne, it was attached to a terrifying sweeper with insane bulk, sweeping potential, and snowballing potential. Just like how zygarde-50% was seen 1v1ing unaware clefs with Coil sets, they are seen 1v1ing quagsires with the same set. Zygarde-50% would already be an OK pick with that set, but Doubling its HP makes it much more cursed. This pokemon can 1v1 entire teams when it gets going, and it's completely related to glare giving it free turns.
I understand this one may seem way pettier, but i do believe glare should atleast be looked at. Much like the Swagger clause discussion in gen6, i do believe a Glare clause could be looked at or atleast discussed. Even if it doesn't, the top 2 parts of this thread are the more important ones.
I definitely suggest a Zacian suspect test, see if Calyrex is still as absurd as it is right now, and if it is suspect it aswell. I understand Ubers as a tier is cautious with bans, but I'm saying right now this tier will straight up die at the rate its going, and something more needs to be done.
First is Zacian. This pokemon already is extremely restrictive in the teambuilder, forcing one of two pokemon on you, being NecrozmaDM, Quagsire, or Ditto. However, Necrozma, the obviously better pokemon overall, is not exactly safe from Zacian. There are two ways Zacian can force itself through Necrozma. Either it picks an SD three attacks set, with SD Close combat behemoth and play rough/wild charge. +3 close combat from adamant Zacian, which is now the standard thanks to Calyrex, does 67-91%. After it clicks SD, you can either Sunsteel for damage and allow revenge killing from either a scarfer or Calyrex, or thunder wave and exchange your dusk mane for Zacian. Sunsteel is not ideal as you don't even kill it, and it can potentially double in for another pokemon to claim. Thunder wave is more ideal as you effectively kill it back with a Twave, but trading zacian isn't ideal in the slightest either, as you open up Geomancy Xerneas to sweep you, because Necrozma is the best answer to both of them. However, it also can lose to the Assurance set. The way Assurance works is that it does double damage if the opponent has taken damage before you used that attack that turn, which includes entry hazards like rocks or spikes. If you manage to catch Necrozma on the switchin when you click it, it drops to Assurance + CC 100% of the time, even if your max max impish. Wild charge is less likely to kill, but Necrozma generally cannot afford to go max max either, because it needs minimum 36 speed to outspeed Zacian after a twave if its adamant, which lowers you to 224+. You also want sp def for xerneas, so you can lower it even further, though it's not required like it was in DLC2.
Close Combat at +2
+3 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 267-315 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 272-321 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Assurance after hazards.
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Assurance vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 246-289 (61.8 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Assurance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 240-283 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The moves to Click after Assurance
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 160-189 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 164-193 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 123-145 (30.9 - 36.4%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 120-142 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 267-315 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 272-321 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Assurance after hazards.
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Assurance vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 246-289 (61.8 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Assurance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 240-283 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The moves to Click after Assurance
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 160-189 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 164-193 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 123-145 (30.9 - 36.4%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 120-142 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
It also has one more set that sounds cursed but is actually really good and still as effective as the agility set. The Restalk 2 attacks set. This sounds weird, but it's honestly a fantastic Xerneas counter, and solid switchin to pokemon like eternatus, and yveltal, and removes some of zacians main weaknesses, which are status and longevity.
It can also swallow a scarf Kyogre water spout and do 73-87% minimum with an uninvested play rough. It's speed is also great because it naturally creeps standard 330 speed eternatus without investment. I'll drop some calcs below, but this set is actually really good.
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned in Rain: 268-316 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 189-223 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 174-205 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 144-169 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 452-534 (115 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 118-140 (30.4 - 36%) -- 46.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 268-316 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 241-285 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 268-316 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 0 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 241-285 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 157-186 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 176-208 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned in Rain: 237-279 (61 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned in Sun: 264-312 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned in Sun: 343-406 (88.4 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned in Rain: 257-304 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 189-223 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 174-205 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 144-169 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 452-534 (115 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 118-140 (30.4 - 36%) -- 46.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 268-316 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 241-285 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 268-316 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 0 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 241-285 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 157-186 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned: 176-208 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned in Rain: 237-279 (61 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned in Sun: 264-312 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned in Sun: 343-406 (88.4 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zacian-Crowned in Rain: 257-304 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You may have noticed I've never mentioned Quagsire past the first sentence, and that's because Zacian cannot break it unless it runs solar blade. Which is plausible but it's not reliable enough to mention. It can be broken if you can knock it off, but most people won't let you do that. However, the issue with quagsire is that your forced to recover after you switch in, and thats free entry for another dangerous mon, making quagsire a momentum killer and not exactly great at countering much besides Zacian. Zygarde can just glare or run toxic which i've seen running around, and beat it 1v1, zekrom has teravolt, Rayquaza can and should run draco on DD sets. Groudon is the only other one thats pretty much walled but if they have toxic your boned.
Zacian just forces an incredible strain on both the builder and the battle, and even if you beat zacian its rare that it hasn't done irreversable damage to your team that Xerneas doesnt just win as soon as it Geomancy's. That's why i consider Zacian broken. In general, zacian is just 1 flinch, one crit, or defense drop or one dodge away from straight up 6-0ing you on its own, and it's just incredibly unhealthy. You have to be so careful against zacian in every game that it's simply so easy to overwhelm you because you HAVE to go necrozma or quag. There's no ifs about it, if you don't something dies, and that forces so much strain on teambuilding that removes creativity in most cases, since this mon FORCES you to have dusk mane or Quagsire, or you simply lose to it on the spot.
As for the last ditch efforts, Full HP ho-oh can stomach a wild charge and put it down, but your losing bout 90% of your ho-oh, which can be reversed since its a ho-oh, but its not ideal. Groudon can stomach any 1 shot at full and kill it back, but both of these can simply miss and now you extra lose. Eternats can do the same if it's been chipped down to around 40%, but losing eternatus isn't ideal either since now kyogre can have fun with your team and is now very hard to manage, but if it's gotten an SD all this is invalidated. That's why Zacian is so dumb, before it was managable since even if you take it down, it didn't completely open up your team to atleast SOMETHING before you took it down. On it's own it's already questionable, but with everything else coming in its very clear this pokemon is just not healthy for the tier.
Eternatus
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Eternatus: 282-333 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Eternatus: 255-300 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 158-188 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Ho-oh
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 318-376 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 132-156 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 240-284 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Groudon
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 246-291 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 324-384 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 422-500 (129.8 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Groudon Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned in Sun: 154-182 (47.3 - 56%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Groudon Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned in Sun: 266-314 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 354-416 (108.9 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Eternatus: 282-333 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Eternatus: 255-300 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 158-188 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Ho-oh
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 318-376 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 132-156 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 240-284 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Groudon
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 246-291 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 324-384 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 422-500 (129.8 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Groudon Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned in Sun: 154-182 (47.3 - 56%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Groudon Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned in Sun: 266-314 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 354-416 (108.9 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Next pokemon I feel is broken is this dumb horse. While this pokemon is not as absurd as Zacian in my eyes, i still feel it's an unhealthy presence to the meta. This pokemon also has multiple sets, like zacian, that change its soft checks that aren't a certain Y bird. The checks it has are Blissey, Yveltal, Tyranitar, Umbreon, and technically Mandibuzz.
Now, this may seem like a decent list, until you look at calyrex can do. If it's specs, Umbreon and blissey are ruined for the rest of the game, and blissey can also just take like 59% min to max max blissey, which isnt a good spread anyway, oh and TTar also gets ruined, unless your running fling rest snarl ttar, which is so beyond terrible but if you have to use that set to comfortably check a pokemon properly shows just how centralizing and broken it is.
Nothing else can really swallow a +1 specs hit, besides literally full HP Ho-oh with 52 spdef, but even then you aren't killing it back with sacred fire or brave bird, so you aren't saved from it either, you can whirlwind, but thats delaying the pain for later, unless you can get another sweeper going before it comes back, but most won't let you do that. Not even spdef Zacian is safe from +1 either, that thing gives a 31% chance to just ohko at +1 specs, and rocks make it 68% chance, while 1 spike is an ohko. Eternatus just dies with a 50% roll at full, and a pure ohko after rocks, so yea you lose if it gets +1 as specs if yveltal is dead. Calyrex also has leaf storm as coverage, so if you have ttar, your not completely safe, but as leaf storm is fairly rare, its not something you need to fear too much.
Yveltal
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 128-151 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 191-225 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 214-252 (47 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 144-170 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- 83.8% chance to 3HKO
Tyranitar
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 84-99 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 126-149 (31.1 - 36.8%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 94-112 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- 75.4% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 368-434 (91 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 368-434 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 424-501 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 424-501 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 180-216 (52.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 128-151 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 191-225 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 214-252 (47 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 144-170 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- 83.8% chance to 3HKO
Tyranitar
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 84-99 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 126-149 (31.1 - 36.8%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 94-112 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- 75.4% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 368-434 (91 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 368-434 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 424-501 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 424-501 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 180-216 (52.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's not its only set though, The Subseed set is capable of setting up on yveltal, unless it runs bloody snarl. Blissey is forced into a stalemate, as nether can properly hit eachother, unless your running shadow ball blissey. Which, like i said with ttar, if you have to run shadow ball on blissey because its one of the only ways to check it is not healthy whatsoever. Yveltal being forced to run snarl on literally every set is already bad enough, but its also not able to run offensive with snarl either, because it needs the sp def or it can easily get overwhelmed.
It also has the scarf set, which completely throws out the idea of revenge killing it with scarfers like Kyogre or Xerneas, which is sometimes a backup last ditch to stop Calyrex from dumpstering your team. It has the privelege of running Modest, which changes its role from pure breaker and revenge killer to breaker and pure revenge killer, and you aren't able to really tell on preview, because it's so slappable on most teams, which all really look the same besides webs HO, because of these 2.
It's still not done though, we have the nasty plot 3 attacks set, which is more threatening than before as some yveltal have stopped running sucker in favor of foul play snarl roost taunt/fog/u turn/toxic. This set isn't as big as the first 3 right now, but it's still used a bit and deserves mention, as it's good at breaking through yveltal if you've managed to toxic it or weaken it down to around half. If you have, since draining kiss recovers you pretty much to full, no scarfer besides spout ogre is going to kill it.
Yveltal
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 250-294 (54.9 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 221-261 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 110-131 (24.1 - 28.7%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 125-148 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Tyranitar
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 83-99 (20.5 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 164-195 (40.5 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 737-867 (103.2 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ho-oh
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 403-476 (96.8 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 328-386 (78.8 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 250-294 (54.9 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 221-261 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 110-131 (24.1 - 28.7%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 125-148 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Tyranitar
252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 83-99 (20.5 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 164-195 (40.5 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Blissey
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 737-867 (103.2 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ho-oh
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 403-476 (96.8 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 328-386 (78.8 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Alot of people i've seen have said, bro what about shadow sneak and sucker punch bro, just use those?!?1. Let's take a look at the members of pokemon who get these moves who have any revelence.
Sucker Punch:
Yveltal
Marshadow (Never using it)
Shedinja (Never using it)
Urshifu (Stretch)
Cinderace (Stretch)
Dragapult (SUPER stretch)
Shadow Sneak:
Giratina-Altered (Never gonna use it, also stretch)
Giratina-Origin
Marshadow
Shedinja
In this list, only yveltal can switch in properly, while both Giratina, Marshadow and Shedinja and getting completely smashed. Shedinja can switch into psyshock if you have balls of steel, but most times it's not effective. Giratina's have no reliable recovery, and is threatened out by yveltal. Marshadow is walled by Zzygarde, and Eternatus but less Eternatus as they have begun running spdef so life orb poltergeist is doing like 50. Shedinja is vulnerable to alot and takes alot of risk using it because you can easily just die to random tech toxic's or will-o-wisps, super effective moves, or just ttar sand. Plus alot of mons just ignore Wonder Guard, such as Zekrom, Reshiram, Sunsteel strike Necrozma, or the kyurem forms. Btw giratina altered sneak doesn't even kill so yea.
Truthfully, i'd prefer sending Zacian off to suspect test first, then see if calyrex is more managable, because it is worth seeing. But i do feel it's questionable if it should be allowed in the tier.
This final one is way less important, but i'd like to discuss Glare as the final point. I understand it's way less broken, but glare is so far and away the best move in the entire game.
Let's look at the pros. First of all, it's a thunder wave that cannot miss. That already puts it above twave, but it has more things, It also is not an electric type move, so you can paralyze ground types aswell. On top of that, it also has more PP than thunder wave for some reason, so it's better in PP stall wars with a certain Gothic demon, or drawn out games in general.
Cons are two points, first is that like thunder wave, you cannot paralyze electric types, but because this move is attached to zygarde, not a single electric type is going to switch in, especially since thousand arrows can ignore levitate, removing Rotom's as an option. The second point is it's distribution, which is limited to snakes and Druddigon.
I'm going to draw a comparison here, and compare it to ADV sand veil Cacturne. However, unlike cacturne, it was attached to a terrifying sweeper with insane bulk, sweeping potential, and snowballing potential. Just like how zygarde-50% was seen 1v1ing unaware clefs with Coil sets, they are seen 1v1ing quagsires with the same set. Zygarde-50% would already be an OK pick with that set, but Doubling its HP makes it much more cursed. This pokemon can 1v1 entire teams when it gets going, and it's completely related to glare giving it free turns.
I understand this one may seem way pettier, but i do believe glare should atleast be looked at. Much like the Swagger clause discussion in gen6, i do believe a Glare clause could be looked at or atleast discussed. Even if it doesn't, the top 2 parts of this thread are the more important ones.
I definitely suggest a Zacian suspect test, see if Calyrex is still as absurd as it is right now, and if it is suspect it aswell. I understand Ubers as a tier is cautious with bans, but I'm saying right now this tier will straight up die at the rate its going, and something more needs to be done.
As a player, this meta honestly isn't good so far. As a builder, this meta is even worse imo.
There are quite a few issues with just how things have been going and how things are looking to continue, because as people try and develop the meta a few small things have popped up but nothing extremely noteworthy that was able to fix some of the glaring issues with the power level and team structures that are going around currently. Tons of teams as they're getting built slowly turn into the standard defensive cores present + a few breakers that you want to use, and that typically will still leave a few relevant holes that are hard to patch without opening others. There can't be a perfect team, but in an ideal meta the losses a team suffers shouldn't have to be this big to make it feel as enjoyable as possible. I still somewhat like and play the meta, it's just hard to find the right balance between good and originality currently.
The standard balance team needs at least 3 mons imo to be viable with supporting mons covering the rest of the mu's as best as possible, those being a calyrex check (likely Yveltal), a Zacian-C check (likely Necrozma-DM), and a Kyogre check (ferro, blissey, or etern usually), so building is super restricted when trying to run the optimal structure for the meta, and this is just targeting 3 mons specifically. Pokemon like Zygarde, Zekrom, Xerneas, Groudon, etc. will need backup checks because they can overwhelm a team by themselves, and it just becomes the same things repeatedly where checking these mons isn't possible without a team so fat it doesn't make progress or just cutting your losses and trying to tweak sets to save as many mons as possible when dealing with something. I mentioned those 3 Pokemon to cover, but want to go more in depth on each one of them in the meta, mainly the first two.
Calyrex-S :
No surprise when saying this probably, but this mon is unhealthy. Banworthy? Maybe, I think the meta has to develop a bit but hopefully if these trends continue we at least see a suspect of some sort because the way it's going this Pokemon warps the meta around itself and it's few viable checks. If we look at the 1760 stats on ladder, it shows an insane 74.942% Yveltal usage, and Calyrex-S sitting at 52.98013% usage. Obviously ladder stats and usage doesn't make a Pokemon broken because otherwise Pdon and Arceus would be on the chopping block, but I like to compare this to the effect Dracovish had on OU with Seismitoad. Seismitoad at certain points was seeing more usage than Dracovish because it was the best and most reliable way to beat it seeing as Ferrothorn and Toxapex for example just lost with chip damage or in rain. Obviously Yveltal is a lot better in their respective metas, but seeing 75% usage is something I don't think it would reach even close to without Calyrex. There's a bit of an asterisk beside these stats though because Yveltal abused dynamax a lot before it was banned as well so it wasn't always defensive, but on HO teams it was extremely common and borderline necessary imo to not lose to ditto'd Calyrex or just opposing ones that win the tie or come in on slower mons repeatedly. If the team doesn't have one of about 3 Pokemon on it (Yveltal, Tyranitar, Porygon-2?) that are actually viable and reliable unlike niche stuff like Zarude which doesn't even outheal specs Astral Barrage with Jungle Healing + Leftovers, and Umbreon which is destroyed by trick due to no quick recovery it'll probably just be sacking mons left and right and get fairly easily steamrolled because of its insane ability.
Offensively checking it is also insanely hard because unlike Zacian-C which it's already faster than it can hold an item, so scarf or sash can help if revenging is a concern or it just doesn't want to get outsped it can just run an item which Pokemon of it's power level generally can't (the only Pokemon with higher BST ever without item restrictions are Eternatus, Arceus-Normal, Zygarde-C, and Mega Rayquaza, most of which is has better offensive capabilities than). These items can also allow it to just beat it's checks because it can run trick specs to ruin them for a game forcing multiple 50/50's and extreme precise plays and probably sacking mons to play round it just if your check is caught by trick. Sub Seed also beats Yveltal with leftovers recovery which has forced a lot to start running snarl, an extremely underwhelming move except for this one scenario.
I really don't like the impact this mon has on the meta from a playing and building perspective, but how much someone likes the meta is subjective so that isn't something to base an argument off, I just think with everything it has going for it the pressure it puts on the meta might be too much, but it's something to wait on a little bit.
Zacian-C:
Whenever people would previously bring up the idea of a Zacian-C suspect I would always respond that it's not broken and while good, wasn't deserving of a test or in dlc 1 even the most pressing matter with a few dynamax mons around. Now however, I think it's something to keep an eye on. Quagsire has fallen off the face of the earth as a check to Zacian-C for the most part due to it's passiveness allowing the new threats to get in for free or for it to just get knocked and take hazards damage not letting it reliably beat Zacian-C. It also doesn't exactly make progress against it since quag is forced to recover on basically every attack, so it needs helmet to force damage leaving it prone to hazards. Zacian-C also has an absurd stat spread for some reason which lets it take a majority of the hits it wants to especially with defensive investment while maintaining an insane attack stat and a base speed that outruns half the meta uninvested.
Necrozma-DM is the clear thing that can make this argument disputable, but Zacian-C has just started running assurance more so it can't ever switch in. If you want to get your own rocks up with Necrozma against a standard opposing team it's likely with a rocks trade against another Necrozma to do it safely, so if you're running boots it's either don't get rocks and keep the item or rocks / knock trade but lose the item and die to assurance. Games like this just force repeated trades of mons whenever a Zacian touches the field, and it's awful to have to play because your best method of beating it just loses on switch in. Dusk mane is also seeing insane usage especially in kickoff where it's right behind Yveltal meanwhile Quagsire had a 0% winrate, so it just shows people are trying everything to beat Zacian, it's just unreliable for the most part.
I can't say if this is worse for the meta than Calyrex-S right now because that's also a very tough subject, but I at least think it's worth further discussion down the line like some people thought about it initially.
Kyogre:
Not broken, but this is more just discussing the meta because I touched on how all balance teams need at least 3 mons to cover 3 targets minimum, and this is another mon to cover. It has some pretty clear ways to beat it such as umbrella Blissey, Ferrothorn, Shedinja, Eternatus, Palkia, even revenging with Regieleki is a thing. The thing is Eternatus is almost always the most splashable to check stuff like Yveltal and Ho-oh as well, but specs on webs or just cm sets beat Eternatus, letting some teams beat the main check to Kyogre. Again, not broken and that's just an mu thing, but it's still one of the premier threats in the meta and a great partner that made Zacian-C arguably better because rain heavily weakens Necrozma-DM trying to heal.
Right now, I think the meta is pretty mediocre and extremely limiting overall, a big downgrade from the dlc 1 meta which I thought was great and would have been close to perfect with a few fixes. Also echoing the post above made by Luna midway through writing this oneban glare best move in the game because it touches on the two main problem mons with some good points as well. Getting creative in the meta is basically which breaker do you want to run alongside the standard defensive cores, and I don't think that this is a good meta trend. Stall isn't running the best offensive mons so it's pressure falls behind pretty heavily to the point where it's really hard to make work, weather is pretty bad especially without dynamax and Excadrill falling off the face of the planet, HO was inconsistent and still probably is but might have become a little more reliable even with the power decrease without dynamax, so overall it's just make a team with glaring flaws or run something extremely standard that tries its best to cover everything but usually falls to underused threats currently like Zekrom or offensive Groudon. Looking at common posts and opinions many people feel the same way about these aspects of the metagame, so some future actions or close watches on these things seem like the right move to improve the meta and get it to a good state.
There are quite a few issues with just how things have been going and how things are looking to continue, because as people try and develop the meta a few small things have popped up but nothing extremely noteworthy that was able to fix some of the glaring issues with the power level and team structures that are going around currently. Tons of teams as they're getting built slowly turn into the standard defensive cores present + a few breakers that you want to use, and that typically will still leave a few relevant holes that are hard to patch without opening others. There can't be a perfect team, but in an ideal meta the losses a team suffers shouldn't have to be this big to make it feel as enjoyable as possible. I still somewhat like and play the meta, it's just hard to find the right balance between good and originality currently.
The standard balance team needs at least 3 mons imo to be viable with supporting mons covering the rest of the mu's as best as possible, those being a calyrex check (likely Yveltal), a Zacian-C check (likely Necrozma-DM), and a Kyogre check (ferro, blissey, or etern usually), so building is super restricted when trying to run the optimal structure for the meta, and this is just targeting 3 mons specifically. Pokemon like Zygarde, Zekrom, Xerneas, Groudon, etc. will need backup checks because they can overwhelm a team by themselves, and it just becomes the same things repeatedly where checking these mons isn't possible without a team so fat it doesn't make progress or just cutting your losses and trying to tweak sets to save as many mons as possible when dealing with something. I mentioned those 3 Pokemon to cover, but want to go more in depth on each one of them in the meta, mainly the first two.
Calyrex-S :No surprise when saying this probably, but this mon is unhealthy. Banworthy? Maybe, I think the meta has to develop a bit but hopefully if these trends continue we at least see a suspect of some sort because the way it's going this Pokemon warps the meta around itself and it's few viable checks. If we look at the 1760 stats on ladder, it shows an insane 74.942% Yveltal usage, and Calyrex-S sitting at 52.98013% usage. Obviously ladder stats and usage doesn't make a Pokemon broken because otherwise Pdon and Arceus would be on the chopping block, but I like to compare this to the effect Dracovish had on OU with Seismitoad. Seismitoad at certain points was seeing more usage than Dracovish because it was the best and most reliable way to beat it seeing as Ferrothorn and Toxapex for example just lost with chip damage or in rain. Obviously Yveltal is a lot better in their respective metas, but seeing 75% usage is something I don't think it would reach even close to without Calyrex. There's a bit of an asterisk beside these stats though because Yveltal abused dynamax a lot before it was banned as well so it wasn't always defensive, but on HO teams it was extremely common and borderline necessary imo to not lose to ditto'd Calyrex or just opposing ones that win the tie or come in on slower mons repeatedly. If the team doesn't have one of about 3 Pokemon on it (Yveltal, Tyranitar, Porygon-2?) that are actually viable and reliable unlike niche stuff like Zarude which doesn't even outheal specs Astral Barrage with Jungle Healing + Leftovers, and Umbreon which is destroyed by trick due to no quick recovery it'll probably just be sacking mons left and right and get fairly easily steamrolled because of its insane ability.
Offensively checking it is also insanely hard because unlike Zacian-C which it's already faster than it can hold an item, so scarf or sash can help if revenging is a concern or it just doesn't want to get outsped it can just run an item which Pokemon of it's power level generally can't (the only Pokemon with higher BST ever without item restrictions are Eternatus, Arceus-Normal, Zygarde-C, and Mega Rayquaza, most of which is has better offensive capabilities than). These items can also allow it to just beat it's checks because it can run trick specs to ruin them for a game forcing multiple 50/50's and extreme precise plays and probably sacking mons to play round it just if your check is caught by trick. Sub Seed also beats Yveltal with leftovers recovery which has forced a lot to start running snarl, an extremely underwhelming move except for this one scenario.
I really don't like the impact this mon has on the meta from a playing and building perspective, but how much someone likes the meta is subjective so that isn't something to base an argument off, I just think with everything it has going for it the pressure it puts on the meta might be too much, but it's something to wait on a little bit.
Zacian-C:Whenever people would previously bring up the idea of a Zacian-C suspect I would always respond that it's not broken and while good, wasn't deserving of a test or in dlc 1 even the most pressing matter with a few dynamax mons around. Now however, I think it's something to keep an eye on. Quagsire has fallen off the face of the earth as a check to Zacian-C for the most part due to it's passiveness allowing the new threats to get in for free or for it to just get knocked and take hazards damage not letting it reliably beat Zacian-C. It also doesn't exactly make progress against it since quag is forced to recover on basically every attack, so it needs helmet to force damage leaving it prone to hazards. Zacian-C also has an absurd stat spread for some reason which lets it take a majority of the hits it wants to especially with defensive investment while maintaining an insane attack stat and a base speed that outruns half the meta uninvested.
Necrozma-DM is the clear thing that can make this argument disputable, but Zacian-C has just started running assurance more so it can't ever switch in. If you want to get your own rocks up with Necrozma against a standard opposing team it's likely with a rocks trade against another Necrozma to do it safely, so if you're running boots it's either don't get rocks and keep the item or rocks / knock trade but lose the item and die to assurance. Games like this just force repeated trades of mons whenever a Zacian touches the field, and it's awful to have to play because your best method of beating it just loses on switch in. Dusk mane is also seeing insane usage especially in kickoff where it's right behind Yveltal meanwhile Quagsire had a 0% winrate, so it just shows people are trying everything to beat Zacian, it's just unreliable for the most part.
I can't say if this is worse for the meta than Calyrex-S right now because that's also a very tough subject, but I at least think it's worth further discussion down the line like some people thought about it initially.
Kyogre:Not broken, but this is more just discussing the meta because I touched on how all balance teams need at least 3 mons to cover 3 targets minimum, and this is another mon to cover. It has some pretty clear ways to beat it such as umbrella Blissey, Ferrothorn, Shedinja, Eternatus, Palkia, even revenging with Regieleki is a thing. The thing is Eternatus is almost always the most splashable to check stuff like Yveltal and Ho-oh as well, but specs on webs or just cm sets beat Eternatus, letting some teams beat the main check to Kyogre. Again, not broken and that's just an mu thing, but it's still one of the premier threats in the meta and a great partner that made Zacian-C arguably better because rain heavily weakens Necrozma-DM trying to heal.
Right now, I think the meta is pretty mediocre and extremely limiting overall, a big downgrade from the dlc 1 meta which I thought was great and would have been close to perfect with a few fixes. Also echoing the post above made by Luna midway through writing this one
If Ubers is seriously considering banning pokemon then I think Zacian deserves to be looked at, rather than Calyrex-S. I have played some games and I can say with confidence that the problem relies on Zacian, although you can say Calyrex-S doesn't help by being a natural, synergetic offensive partner, I think what Calyrex does for it can be done by other mons (i.e. Yveltal). If the meta develops and people find more than one comfortable way to check Zacian + a Dark/Ghost strong hitter without sacrificing too much in practice then I think there is no reason to ponder a Zacian ban. If Ubers arrives at a point where a ban on both mons is considered, then I think Zacian should be looked at first to see how Zacianless meta would look like and if the same problems prevail without it (which Idt will be the case theoretically).
Cynara
Banned deucer.
Personally I think this gen has been a literal joke ever since Pokebank / DLC1 release.
General playerbase opinion feels that, the majority are sick of the tier due to the personal opinion on a specific element and there has been waning interest over time; and it feels like player concerns have been ignored previously.
Obviously, judging by the thread it appears players are very mixed about how they see the meta and thread posters are only a small sample size, but one thing the majority tend to have in common is that theyre discontent with Generation 8 Ubers.
Has the tiering council considered a player survery? I have linked the OU thread as a cross-reference, but I think this would be a better idea to gather general playerbase thoughts and feelings, most players tend to shy away from threads like this due to the strict guidelines / fear of confrontation of others. Surverys give a safe space for players to provide their views and generates more conclusive data about how the active playerbase feel about the metagame incl enjoyment. Ubers survery q's could obviously be curated towards the Ubers metagame, such as how they feel about Calyrex's / Zacian-C's impact on the meta and what element they feel is most problematic etc.
Personally I partially agree with Edgar in this thread that the combination of Zacian-C + Calyrex is way too overbearing in the current metagame, forcing players to sacrifice a lot in the teambuilder, but whats not clear is whether players agree the issue is ultimately Zacian-C or Calyrex (personally for me its Calyrex) but one could easily argue Zacian-C in the current state. Maybe the solution is to suspect both, who knows.
I also feel like Caly / Zacian-C may be seen as a bias thing as theres a portion of players who feel there is simply too many threats to account for in the teambuilder, Zacian / Caly as being targetted as the main problems due to the importance required to check them, but to some people don't seem overhwlemingly absurd enough to warrant a ban aligning with Ubers tiering policy (if this is the case, has ubers tiering failed? possibily.) and we just have to accept that generation 8 is a awful generation to play.
General playerbase opinion feels that, the majority are sick of the tier due to the personal opinion on a specific element and there has been waning interest over time; and it feels like player concerns have been ignored previously.
Obviously, judging by the thread it appears players are very mixed about how they see the meta and thread posters are only a small sample size, but one thing the majority tend to have in common is that theyre discontent with Generation 8 Ubers.
Has the tiering council considered a player survery? I have linked the OU thread as a cross-reference, but I think this would be a better idea to gather general playerbase thoughts and feelings, most players tend to shy away from threads like this due to the strict guidelines / fear of confrontation of others. Surverys give a safe space for players to provide their views and generates more conclusive data about how the active playerbase feel about the metagame incl enjoyment. Ubers survery q's could obviously be curated towards the Ubers metagame, such as how they feel about Calyrex's / Zacian-C's impact on the meta and what element they feel is most problematic etc.
Personally I partially agree with Edgar in this thread that the combination of Zacian-C + Calyrex is way too overbearing in the current metagame, forcing players to sacrifice a lot in the teambuilder, but whats not clear is whether players agree the issue is ultimately Zacian-C or Calyrex (personally for me its Calyrex) but one could easily argue Zacian-C in the current state. Maybe the solution is to suspect both, who knows.
I also feel like Caly / Zacian-C may be seen as a bias thing as theres a portion of players who feel there is simply too many threats to account for in the teambuilder, Zacian / Caly as being targetted as the main problems due to the importance required to check them, but to some people don't seem overhwlemingly absurd enough to warrant a ban aligning with Ubers tiering policy (if this is the case, has ubers tiering failed? possibily.) and we just have to accept that generation 8 is a awful generation to play.
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I don't see how Zacian and Calyrex are more overbearing than Primal Groudon was in Gen 6 after ORAS or Xerneas pre ORAS. Neither require a suspect test as it is.
See, the difference is how contrictive they are to the most important part of this entire game, teambuilding. Xerneas forced you to have a steel, but realistically, every team should have a steel to begin with, and you aren't playing 5v6 if your opponent didn't have xerneas. If you bring Snarl yveltal to a match and they don't have Calyrex, your fighting an effective 5v6 because defensive yveltal does nothing besides check Carlyrex. Primal Groudon was good, but it's not like Dracovish was in OU, where you were Forced to use Seismitoad or else you lose to Dracovish with ease. It was an unhealthy presence on teambuilding.
Necrozma-DM cannot do everything. Necrozma needs 3 item slots, 762 evs, and like 7 slots of moves to properly check everything it's tasked to. It needs boots so assurance Zacian doesn't invalidate it, needs utility umbrella so rain doesnt invalidate its recovery, and it needs helmet to punish zacian from just fishing for luck everytime it comes in, which it does every time your defensive yveltal comes in, which is forced to exist or you lose to Calyrex.
Another Point i'd like to make is, Zacian's Evs now that Calyrex exists. Before, Zacian ran jolly because it wanted to get the jump on itself. Now that Calyrex exists, it's impossible to tell what speed Zacian runs, because it's faster than literally every single relevant pokemon in the tier uninvested. Eternatus never runs speed beyond 330, which zacian also creeps, Mewtwo is terrible, and so is lugia.
Let's list the pokemon Faster than 332.
Lugia (Terrible)
Landorus-I (Terrible)
Naganadel (Worthless)
Marshadow
Zamazenta-Crowned (Literally potentially tested in OU)
Mewtwo (Terrible)
Eternatus
Zamazenta (Terrible)
Zacian (Never seeing use from it's big brother)
Calyrex-Shadow (Faster than max so it doesn't matter)
Landorus-I (Terrible)
Naganadel (Worthless)
Marshadow
Zamazenta-Crowned (Literally potentially tested in OU)
Mewtwo (Terrible)
Eternatus
Zamazenta (Terrible)
Zacian (Never seeing use from it's big brother)
Calyrex-Shadow (Faster than max so it doesn't matter)
On this list, TWO pokemon fit the bill. However both of them either don't run speed, or takes too much opportunity cost to use. Eternatus is forced to run as much sp def as possible for kyogre, so it's speed isnt going higher than 330. And marshadow has so little defensive utility, and zero points of entry besides a hard double or teleport blissey. Marshadow's main defensive utility was being a great check to Ekiller, but since Ekiller doesn't exist, it's worthless defensively. No resists, no relevant immunities.
Truthfully, Ubers needs to completely change how it considers itself, and it should've the second Mega Rayquaza got banned to AG. Ubers, whether you like it or not, is a Tier. It's not a banlist anymore, and we should consider banning things that are problematic. This tier is so behind the times, unfun and not popular that it got removed from Grand Slam, SPL, and and snake draft. If that isn't telling that this tiering system needs to be revamped, or something beyond Dynamax being banned, I don't know what is.
Honestly I would be very happy to see Calyrex-Shadow and Zacian-Crowned gone. Calyrex is like Deoxys-A only with better typing, a great ability and it can actually take a hit. Zacian-C is insanely fast, insanely powerful and it’s got good bulk and great defensive typing. This tier is just not enjoyable to play right now IMO, and I’m not alone - I tried to ladder during my lunch break today (12:30-13:30 GMT if you care) and in one hour I only got about 6 battles.
Personally I think Zacian would be more manageable without the Rusted Sword - it loses a good chunk of power, Behemoth Blade, some Speed and most importantly that amazing typing, giving it much fewer opportunities to switch in.
Ubers has been a tier ever since Mega Rayquaza got the ban and Shadow Tag was suspected, so let’s treat it like one and suspect shit. If you want to play a meta where you can use absolutely anything, that’s what AG is for.
Personally I think Zacian would be more manageable without the Rusted Sword - it loses a good chunk of power, Behemoth Blade, some Speed and most importantly that amazing typing, giving it much fewer opportunities to switch in.
Ubers has been a tier ever since Mega Rayquaza got the ban and Shadow Tag was suspected, so let’s treat it like one and suspect shit. If you want to play a meta where you can use absolutely anything, that’s what AG is for.
Honestly, what I think (I could of course be wrong) is this:
SpD Yveltal has to be on every team or else you lost to Calyrex.
NDM is even more forced because now Xerneas also exists along with Zacian-C. This means NDM is even more strained than before but also more necessary.
You need a Kyogre check, because the king is back (albeit less dominating as before thanks to those upstarts).
You also need a Groudon check, as both Yveltal and NDM lose to Groudon (assuming Stone Edge). Also, if your Kyogre check is Eternatus Groudon eats that alive too.
You need a secondary Xerneas/Zacian-C check or else the combo of those two can just smash NDM and the rest of your team along with it.
You need something that can do real damage to Zygarde-C.
You also need offensive pressure, unless you are running stall (and I can't understand why you would run stall in a metagame like this)
Finally, you need to Improof all of your Pokemon, as Ditto is a thing now. Sometimes they can just Improof each other, but it is a thing to watch out about.
Because of this, more balanced playstyles are super strained, and Hyper Offense is the dominant playstyle as they just spam offensive mons and have one offensive beast barely check another offensive beast, along with Ditto being a safety net (though things like Sash Calyrex still gets through). I honestly think that the meta is unhealthy, and Calyrex-S and Zacian-C needs to go.
SpD Yveltal has to be on every team or else you lost to Calyrex.
NDM is even more forced because now Xerneas also exists along with Zacian-C. This means NDM is even more strained than before but also more necessary.
You need a Kyogre check, because the king is back (albeit less dominating as before thanks to those upstarts).
You also need a Groudon check, as both Yveltal and NDM lose to Groudon (assuming Stone Edge). Also, if your Kyogre check is Eternatus Groudon eats that alive too.
You need a secondary Xerneas/Zacian-C check or else the combo of those two can just smash NDM and the rest of your team along with it.
You need something that can do real damage to Zygarde-C.
You also need offensive pressure, unless you are running stall (and I can't understand why you would run stall in a metagame like this)
Finally, you need to Improof all of your Pokemon, as Ditto is a thing now. Sometimes they can just Improof each other, but it is a thing to watch out about.
Because of this, more balanced playstyles are super strained, and Hyper Offense is the dominant playstyle as they just spam offensive mons and have one offensive beast barely check another offensive beast, along with Ditto being a safety net (though things like Sash Calyrex still gets through). I honestly think that the meta is unhealthy, and Calyrex-S and Zacian-C needs to go.
Reading some of the comments in here, specifically the ones about needing to start treating ubers as a tier, has me thinking: Isn't the entire idea of "ubers" extremely dated? It's a concept dating back in Pokemon history to when there were barely enough uber-tier Pokemon to fill an entire team. It was a way of locking up those stupidly powerful legendary Pokemon so the "main" tier for Pokemon was playable. However nowadays there are well over 30 uber tier Pokemon. Also the thematic value of keeping the "main" tier free of legendary Pokemon seems more and more silly when it's quite common to have a team with 4-5 mythical, legendary and ultra beast Pokemon in OU. Why is the top tier of Pokemon a banlist rather than a playable tier?
Basically what I'm saying is yes I agree that ubers should be a tier, but also that the entire concept of uber as a separate entity from everything else is a dated holdover from when there weren't 800-something Pokemon and should be gotten rid of. Then again, this is something I've thought for years and relates to the idea that calling tiers OU, UU, RU etc is another holdover from the early days when calling pokemon "Under Used" or "Never Used" actually meant something in regards to the main playable tier.
Basically what I'm saying is yes I agree that ubers should be a tier, but also that the entire concept of uber as a separate entity from everything else is a dated holdover from when there weren't 800-something Pokemon and should be gotten rid of. Then again, this is something I've thought for years and relates to the idea that calling tiers OU, UU, RU etc is another holdover from the early days when calling pokemon "Under Used" or "Never Used" actually meant something in regards to the main playable tier.
I wholeheartedly agree, I'd even go so far as to say that ubers ought to supplant OU. The distinction between ubers and OU is soooo contrived with a majority of pokemon being banned without testing, despite the fact that ubers often ends up having a really healthy and deep meta. Although I've stopped playing it now due to there being insufficient opportunity to actually develop one's skills at it, I bloody loved BW2 Ubers for instance, and I genuinely think it's a better meta than the corresponding OU. Ultimately, I think in a competitive game, players should have access to every possible option in order to find their solution to winning, unless specific options are genuinely broken based on actual gameplay. Arbitrarily banning dozens of Pokemon is totally inconsistent with that ideal.
Sadly, that's not an idea that will lead anywhere, since OU's status is so firmly entrenched that most people don't seriously apply any critical thinking to it
Also the letter-based XU system is sooo archaic and such nonsense that we've had to explicitly give up on having them mean anything. Lutra's proposed numeric system I think is objectively superior (note: am biased, bc I used to mod Pokemon Perfect, where we actually did use that system)
Yubellia
Banned deucer.
+ Ye this metagame is kinda really shit to play rn (sorry for the inappropriate language) but I really feel it explains how bad things are now. I think the Dynamax clause was definitely a step in the right direction for sure, but the Calyrex + Zacian-C offensive combination is just too restrictive and is not ideal to teambuild with at all.
There is just not enough variable defensive counterplay to try and coutneract these two without resorting to restrictive builds involving both Necrozma-DM + Yveltal in tandem with other soft checks such as Ho-Oh, Zygarde-C, and Eternatus. However, I feel the main culprit here is Calyrex-S here however as soft checks to Zacian-C are more abundant (in relation to Calyrex-S ofc not implying that it has multiple ones) and offer more value against other checks in comparison to SpD Yveltal. Even with Dynamax banned, Calyrex-S still seems to strive especially since checks like Ho-Oh, Kyogre and even Zygarde can't defensively dynamax in order to attempt to check it in a pinch. Yes Calyrex-S also like to abuse dynamax offensively as well of course, but I think the lack of defensively using it on various bulky mons makes Calyrex-S more dangerous then it was before, especially Specs sets and even SubSeed.
I personally feel Calyrex-S should be suspected immediately, even with the high standards that Ubers has regarding banning pokemon I think this threat warrants it.
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You know why the new legendaries are so broken? Because of dynamax. One of the many reasons I was against banning dynamax was because the meta won’t have any reliable checks to mons like zacian and caly. SpD Yveltal is a must, since offensive variants can only switch once, lest they got chipped every time they switch. Zac and caly has insane speed, raising heavily the bar regarding speed tiers.
At least with dynamax you had more diversity, but rn Zac and caly are super overcentalizing.
In particular Zac has no reliable check/counter, unlike Caly. NDM dies to chip dmg and crunch/assurance/wild charge/CC. Zyg dies to fairy StAB. Ho-oh got rekt courtesy of wild charge. And please don’t mention quagsire: sure checks Zac, but dies to anything else lol.
Add to it the lack of Arceus formes, lack of pdon and, above all, lack of hidden power and pursuit.
This meta is unplayable rn.
At least with dynamax you had more diversity, but rn Zac and caly are super overcentalizing.
In particular Zac has no reliable check/counter, unlike Caly. NDM dies to chip dmg and crunch/assurance/wild charge/CC. Zyg dies to fairy StAB. Ho-oh got rekt courtesy of wild charge. And please don’t mention quagsire: sure checks Zac, but dies to anything else lol.
Add to it the lack of Arceus formes, lack of pdon and, above all, lack of hidden power and pursuit.
This meta is unplayable rn.
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Zacian-C or Calyrex-S has to go. To be honest I don‘t really know which one should be removed as they both are restricting teambuilding in their own way but having one gone is certainly healthy for the meta. I don‘t wanna repeat what everyone else said but the council should act asap. This meta is honestly no fun and if you checked out most of the current games there is literally no creativity at all as there is always the same pattern involving the teambuild. The archtypes are usually offense and you are crazy if you don’t abuse these two mons.
Honestly, the fact Zacian-C and Calyrex-Shadow-Rider mutually suffocates everything around here and yet theoretically (if you look at pre-DLC2 Natdex AG, Zacian-C has already sort of proven that there despite having a lot soft checks) are still so overcentralizing by themselves should be an alarming red flag. Regardless if anyone leans towards the pro-Zacian-C or pro-Calyex-Shadow-Rider camp, I think the best solution is to suspect both. I am currently writing an essay detailing the numerous problems people and I brought up, will probably post that here later if anyone is interested.
As I see it, Dynamax being needed to keep those in check is a case of broken checking broken. That ain't how tiering works. The appropriate thing to do is ban the broken element, and if something else stands out as broken as a result, ban that too. That said, I think Zacian and Shadow Calyrex both need to get the boot.
While I haven't played Ubers since Pokebank dropped in new Ubers at the time, I think I'm noticing a trend with the sudden gripe towards Calyrex-S and Zacian-C shortly after a supermajority ban on Dynamax, and that is not only how broken the mechanic in of itself was, but the influence that it had ultimately left a pretty bad scar when some of, at least what it felt like, the Pokemon meant to combat Dynamax end up being incredibly broken and unhealthy for the highest-powered tier, due to their overwhelming power.
It's an interesting scenario we're in and it shows just how badly designed the very mechanic was, which leads me to believe it will either disappear entirely in the coming generations should this become well-known, or they will majorly overhaul the mechanic to unrecognizable proportions. This may possibly be one of the worst generations in terms of power creep and imbalance caused by Dynamax and how it influenced the design of several pokemon and moves, that's what this is all coming off to me as.
I think it's safe to say, Gen 8 isn't gonna age well once we get newer generation, arguably worse than any previous one, all cause of Dynamax's influence causing all this.
It's an interesting scenario we're in and it shows just how badly designed the very mechanic was, which leads me to believe it will either disappear entirely in the coming generations should this become well-known, or they will majorly overhaul the mechanic to unrecognizable proportions. This may possibly be one of the worst generations in terms of power creep and imbalance caused by Dynamax and how it influenced the design of several pokemon and moves, that's what this is all coming off to me as.
I think it's safe to say, Gen 8 isn't gonna age well once we get newer generation, arguably worse than any previous one, all cause of Dynamax's influence causing all this.
Cynara
Banned deucer.
Despite sheer discontent addressed amongst players, including past high calibre tournament players coming out to even post, which honestly says a lot to me, People find this metagame still unplayable, certain elements too restrictive / overwhelming to overcome in the teambuilder and in game. I've been playing the ladder more extensively over the past few weeks and I honestly share a lot of discontent players are feeling.
Unfortunately the feelings of players still seems to be ignored by the tiering council and the tiering leader and I expect to see these addressed, As a ex-member of the Ubers tiering council I made efforts to make my feelings voiced and address others as much as possible. I'm sick of the people being ignored, even if its arguments for and against. hell not even people who are happy with the metagame gets addressed by the tiering council or any upper administration of Ubers, and this is honestly disappointing, I expect more involvement from the tiering council, if theyre inactive then replace them with people who are more eager to express how they feel and help out in tiering. My post did not receive any feedback so far as an example.
I urge for posts to be addressed by the top players of the council and / or express their own views on the metagame in an honest way and not some dishonest puppet opinion. I understand some members may feel intimidated by the current tiering leader to even express their views and being an ex-council member I can understand why; I don't want to hear the usual Nayrz mantra of "we're not considering anything after [TIMEFRAME]" (usually most wanted and this is a completely arbitary excuse imo) which is only going to increase player discord and frustrations with the metagame, no one is going to enjoy SS Ubers in MW. You can act on and address things as tiering council now even if you believe the metagame is fine (press x to doubt). Every single Tiering council member has shyed away from this discussion? but why?
Unfortunately the feelings of players still seems to be ignored by the tiering council and the tiering leader and I expect to see these addressed, As a ex-member of the Ubers tiering council I made efforts to make my feelings voiced and address others as much as possible. I'm sick of the people being ignored, even if its arguments for and against. hell not even people who are happy with the metagame gets addressed by the tiering council or any upper administration of Ubers, and this is honestly disappointing, I expect more involvement from the tiering council, if theyre inactive then replace them with people who are more eager to express how they feel and help out in tiering. My post did not receive any feedback so far as an example.
I urge for posts to be addressed by the top players of the council and / or express their own views on the metagame in an honest way and not some dishonest puppet opinion. I understand some members may feel intimidated by the current tiering leader to even express their views and being an ex-council member I can understand why; I don't want to hear the usual Nayrz mantra of "we're not considering anything after [TIMEFRAME]" (usually most wanted and this is a completely arbitary excuse imo) which is only going to increase player discord and frustrations with the metagame, no one is going to enjoy SS Ubers in MW. You can act on and address things as tiering council now even if you believe the metagame is fine (press x to doubt). Every single Tiering council member has shyed away from this discussion? but why?
Personally I would like to see a temporary ladder where Rusted Sword and Shadow Calyrex are banned, so we can get an idea of what the meta will be like without them. Other people have already voiced my thoughts on both those mons better than I could, so I won’t drone on. Let’s not kid ourselves and say Ubers is a banlist not a tier. Moody was banned from it in BW. Mega Rayquaza was banned in ORAS. Shadow Tag was suspected, although it dodged the hammer. And of course most recently Dynamax was banned. When shit is broken in a tier, it gets banned. Ubers should not be an exception.
Also, if you want to play a meta where everything is legal, play AG
Also, if you want to play a meta where everything is legal, play AG
I've got a team in the top 10 on the ladder that doesn't use Zacian-C or Calyrex-S, but I also have multiple, multiple checks to them.
They're both incredibly centralizing - especially Zacian-C. I don't feel safe in this meta without a certain combo of Pokemon to keep it in check.
They're both incredibly centralizing - especially Zacian-C. I don't feel safe in this meta without a certain combo of Pokemon to keep it in check.
[Council Member] TonyFlygon reporting for duty. 
First of all, my apologies for not posting sooner. I was a manager of one of the two teams in the Snake finals tiebreaker this week, so I put essentially all of my 'Smogon time' into that tournament. I can't and won't deny that we as a council have not been vocal enough about what we've been planning and what we've been working on, though, so here I am providing an update right now.
I'll start by touching on our lack of community outreach and specifically the use of a survey like the one used by OU leadership, which Cynara rightfully alluded to. We had actually been planning the use of such a survey towards the end of DLC 1, to the point of already having everything set up. However, right as were ready to send it out, Nintendo announced the DLC 2 release date and we figured there was no longer a point in posting the survey. We instead wanted to focus on Dynamax as soon as DLC 2 came out and obviously Dynamax was banned not long after.
Fast forward to right now and we have a fresh metagame that is adjusting to everything being legal except for Dynamax. Clearly, undeniably, two Pokemon stand out in particular; Zacian-C and Calyrex-S. I understand your frustration and disappointment with a lack of communication by the council completely, but in terms of a tiering timeline I think we're exactly on track right now. It might seem like it's been forever, but we banned Dynamax just two weeks ago. This is a good amount of time to get a proper understanding of the metagame and to think about how we want to move forward from here. Our next step is releasing a survey on the current state of Ubers, with a primary focus on the two aforementioned standout Pokemon. We'll try to get this survey out sometime this week.
Finally, we'll keep closer tabs on threads like these moving forward. Speaking for myself, it certainly wasn't my intention to unnerve any of you by not posting here until now. I just wouldn't want to rush into anything we might regret down the line given how recently the Dynamax results came in. We'll be more proactive in our communication from here on out and we will be actively working on making sure that we can all enjoy this great and iconic tier. One step at a time, though. Survey and more updates from us coming soon!
First of all, my apologies for not posting sooner. I was a manager of one of the two teams in the Snake finals tiebreaker this week, so I put essentially all of my 'Smogon time' into that tournament. I can't and won't deny that we as a council have not been vocal enough about what we've been planning and what we've been working on, though, so here I am providing an update right now.
I'll start by touching on our lack of community outreach and specifically the use of a survey like the one used by OU leadership, which Cynara rightfully alluded to. We had actually been planning the use of such a survey towards the end of DLC 1, to the point of already having everything set up. However, right as were ready to send it out, Nintendo announced the DLC 2 release date and we figured there was no longer a point in posting the survey. We instead wanted to focus on Dynamax as soon as DLC 2 came out and obviously Dynamax was banned not long after.
Fast forward to right now and we have a fresh metagame that is adjusting to everything being legal except for Dynamax. Clearly, undeniably, two Pokemon stand out in particular; Zacian-C and Calyrex-S. I understand your frustration and disappointment with a lack of communication by the council completely, but in terms of a tiering timeline I think we're exactly on track right now. It might seem like it's been forever, but we banned Dynamax just two weeks ago. This is a good amount of time to get a proper understanding of the metagame and to think about how we want to move forward from here. Our next step is releasing a survey on the current state of Ubers, with a primary focus on the two aforementioned standout Pokemon. We'll try to get this survey out sometime this week.
Finally, we'll keep closer tabs on threads like these moving forward. Speaking for myself, it certainly wasn't my intention to unnerve any of you by not posting here until now. I just wouldn't want to rush into anything we might regret down the line given how recently the Dynamax results came in. We'll be more proactive in our communication from here on out and we will be actively working on making sure that we can all enjoy this great and iconic tier. One step at a time, though. Survey and more updates from us coming soon!
Thanks for making this post in the first place, as you said there is some uncertainty due to a lack of communication with the thoughts on the meta and possible actions that will be taken in general. Having a timeframe for the survey is nice, but I figure it will reveal close results to what everyone has been saying so far; the meta is limited and a few mons are clearly at the top higher than most top mons usually are. Regardless of that though, seeing the activity is very helpful and shows that there is a solid path we're headed on towards getting a general consensus from the player base.[Council Member] TonyFlygon reporting for duty.
First of all, my apologies for not posting sooner. I was a manager of one of the two teams in the Snake finals tiebreaker this week, so I put essentially all of my 'Smogon time' into that tournament. I can't and won't deny that we as a council have not been vocal enough about what we've been planning and what we've been working on, though, so here I am providing an update right now.
I'll start by touching on our lack of community outreach and specifically the use of a survey like the one used by OU leadership, which Cynara rightfully alluded to. We had actually been planning the use of such a survey towards the end of DLC 1, to the point of already having everything set up. However, right as were ready to send it out, Nintendo announced the DLC 2 release date and we figured there was no longer a point in posting the survey. We instead wanted to focus on Dynamax as soon as DLC 2 came out and obviously Dynamax was banned not long after.
Fast forward to right now and we have a fresh metagame that is adjusting to everything being legal except for Dynamax. Clearly, undeniably, two Pokemon stand out in particular; Zacian-C and Calyrex-S. I understand your frustration and disappointment with a lack of communication by the council completely, but in terms of a tiering timeline I think we're exactly on track right now. It might seem like it's been forever, but we banned Dynamax just two weeks ago. This is a good amount of time to get a proper understanding of the metagame and to think about how we want to move forward from here. Our next step is releasing a survey on the current state of Ubers, with a primary focus on the two aforementioned standout Pokemon. We'll try to get this survey out sometime this week.
Finally, we'll keep closer tabs on threads like these moving forward. Speaking for myself, it certainly wasn't my intention to unnerve any of you by not posting here until now. I just wouldn't want to rush into anything we might regret down the line given how recently the Dynamax results came in. We'll be more proactive in our communication from here on out and we will be actively working on making sure that we can all enjoy this great and iconic tier. One step at a time, though. Survey and more updates from us coming soon!
Now, its been a while since I last touched on the meta which was only a few days after the dynamax ban, so now I figure is a solid time to talk more, especially since we were in CPL!
CPL while being a no johns type of tour was still a place for meta development and a solid way to gauge the general early meta trends. I myself played and went 2-0, but the way I built teams felt extremely limited. I was basically trying to build teams, would get through with an idea, and it would lose to some random shit that could be relevant enough to make it not worth using. Obviously covering everything isn't possible, but generally you want to not just lose if something shows up at preview and can get in like twice. I was building before my second game, and since I couldn't figure out exactly what I wanted to use that could be viable I threw a Xerneas on my game 1 team as the Zygarde check instead of bulu since bulu was a gimmick, and it ended up being built around Marshadow instead of Zacian but the exact same team comp with the same 4 as a backbone, then just replacing the fairy for an offensive one and the physical attacker for a cooler one. I couldn't figure out another way to work around current trends, and felt like the core 4 members (Yveltal, Eternatus, Necrozma-DM, Blissey) were all very needed to cover otherwise auto-lose MU's (see: Blissey being needed for CM ogre instead of just Eternatus which would have beat me otherwise). Just covering the main threats felt close to impossible, and my teams were by no means perfect, a well played rp or sd Groudon goes off on both, since Tapu Bulu isn't exactly the sturdiest mon out there. I've found that I think the optimal team structure for consistency usually is the four I outlined being Blissey Eternatus Necrozma Yveltal, with the occasional ferro thrown in over Blissey and some sand teams changing up the Sp.def dark and Zacian check. Teams need roles to cover always, but these roles are really limited and try to cramp everything possible into these few mons which desperately try to hold the meta together but just can't.
I think just by playing a lot of ladder games, no major meta shifting is going on. With dynamax around, I could at least meme with Pikachu and have it be put on a competitively viable team, and while I'm no where close to regretting voting ban since the meta is less dependent on snowballs from dynamax, it certainly has become more telegraphed in what is used and how to build. There's the occasional HO, but generally the same balance is just every single team that tries to get high ladder. Same 5 or so defensive mons, a few offensive mons which is where basically all the creativity is, and gg viable team. Ranting aside however because that's overdone, a few things I want to re-touch upon as well as a few things I've discovered in the time we've had to play with the meta.
Zacian-C:Zacian-C feels like it's only getting better somehow, just kind of beating the meta. Assurance has shown to be absolutely ridiculous, close to single-handedly winning games because it just invalidates the best mon which is able to check it unless it forgoes Rocky Helmet which comes with the ability to force passive progress on switch in for Heavy-Duty-Boots, which are knocked off half the time anyway. In one of my CPL games, it was basically pick a mon then threaten out Zacian: The Game! It basically came down to who got who first with the Assurance, and I got him first so I won late game after killing the rocker letting my own dusk mane switch in more freely, only after sacking a Blissey which was my switch in to a Zacian. My own Zacian proceeded to get 5 kills after clicking one move on a switch in. It's not like the opposing team couldn't deal with it either, there was a dusk mane, a Choice Specs Calyrex as a revenge killer, and their own Zacian for the assumed speed tie, but it abused the fact that the hard check shocker: has to switch in. SD sets with Crunch also just bop dusk manes that aren't running twave since it does close to the same thing but can fish for hax more reliably, and all twave does it let more than -2 mons revenge kill it due to their speed. I think it might be very close between this and Calyrex which is better, but offensively they're both clearly in a league of their own, forcing their best checks to probably follow right behind them in viability with maybe a Zygarde thrown in between.
Calyrex-S:Same deal as last time I talked about it really, just the uncertainty of which set would be the best isn't really there as much, since it's pretty much choice sets just dominating the meta. Teams are usually forced to run one mon to absorb the trick + Yveltal, or else they run the risk of losing some 50/50's and their ability to come in on rocks with the check to the mon so it can just win. But sub seed is also relevant just not as common, but equally as restricting. Teams need either a Ho-oh which never gets its boots knocked or else it has a change to die to rocks + leech + Astral Barrage if it tries to switch in or at the very least be put in range of never coming in again, or an Yveltal / kind of ttar running a lackluster move in snarl (which doesn't even kill coming from ttar). Scarf is able to destroy a lot of HO and deal with some of the few mons that can reasonably outspeed and KO it such as Scarf Kyogre or +2 speed Xerneas. This mon is capable of ridiculous things but that's no surprise and I don't want to beat the dead horse, so I'll move on to other mons I've found are underrated or unexplored which could be very good.
Marshadow:Marshadow is super underused rn, but I honestly think this mon is one of the best in the tier. Its offensive capabilities are basically just stopped by max defensive Xern which still takes over 40% from Adamant Life Orb Poltergeist, and the best wall being Phys.Def Zygarde. Rock Tomb has replaced Bulk Up as the last move of choice when I've used it, and it snipes random scarfers as well as Ho-oh which would like to be something that forces Marshadow out. Its STAB is still unresisted and completely runs through most of the meta, cool mon
Groudon:Groudon kills half of the relevant teams by itself. On HO this thing has the potential to be a menace, as well as just on balance with a paradancer set which I've found is solid since hax is hax. Ground is a great typing rn (evident by Zygarde being so good) so having a really strong set up mon with coverage and support options is clearly good, it just has a hard time fitting in on teams since its roles aren't as clear.
Eternatus:Why would I talk about such a boring and standard mon here? I think offensive sets need to be talked about and explored more because they're really good. Normal things that could take on or pivot on defensive tspikes such as Yveltal, Ho-oh, and to an extent Necrozma-DM all hate taking Life Orb Sludge Bomb's or Flamethrowers, as well as a deadly Meteor Beam set which was used a bit in CPL as well as being something I've seen on ladder and in people's teams. It's really solid if you can support it well, since it loses most of the wanted defensive capabilities like checking scarf ogre, but Eternatus is a really good mon overall, and the offensive sets need more recognition.
Calyrex-I:Inferior to the other form while having the opportunity cost of not using the other form, but still something that's so much fun to use. Defensive Leech Seed Iron Defense Body Press was something I was using with dynamax and now is still alright, sd sets have some merit, and Trick Room teams love this thing. It's a super cool mon and while generally easy to cover, something that can be deadly when used well. Not amazing but I still think highly of it as it can check a lot of relevant threats like Zygarde, Zekrom, etc. while dying to so few hits due to its bulk.
Zekrom:Surprisingly this thing is still sweeping teams post-dyna ban. It has its fair share of checks, just standard balances without like Curse Ferrothorn can hardly stand up to this, and it's forcing eq on a lot of dusk mane. It's a good mon still and I think it is a legitimate threat a team has to be able to at least mildly cover.
So generally, after playing in the meta more I can say that the huge distaste is a lot less in terms of playability considering I really disliked the meta as it was released, but it's still not a great meta and has room for improvement. Building is a tiny bit easier also but that's more so with the offensive side of things as well as dealing with Zygarde being harder which surprisingly adds variety since a lot of standard mons just fall to that thing, but adding variety to check something very good with sometimes not very good mons doesn't always have a net positive. I think the meta has a lot of ways it could go, but ideally something happens to free up the restraints currently put on teams and players.
In this thread, we've seen an overwhelming amount of pro ban arguements and discontent with the meta. Since Dynamax was banned, I have seen one post defending any element of the current meta. It was defending Calyrex S, and is from literally one day after the Dyna ban. So I just wanted to ask, does anyone like the current meta, or have any defenses for why Zacian or Calyrex shouldn't go? I don't ask this to be sarcastic, or prove a point, I'm genuinely curious, because I've personally found that when the majority of the community feels a certain way, it almost decides it then and there. I can't speak for everyone, but knowing that everyone disagrees with me has stopped me from making posts in the forums before. To have a suspect test, we must first have a dissenting opinion, because otherwise we're ruining the ladder for the next two weeks for the sake of it. The only dissenting opinion I've seen was a borderline one-liner from Joseph Gnomes. It would be nice to see some well thought out defenses for Zacian or Calyrex.
On an unrelated note, I definitely think that Calyrex is the main problem here. The central problem with the meta imo is that Calyrex beats everything other then Yveltal and is a terrifying sweeper that naturally snowballs. If we ban Zacian, Calyrex will find something else to beat Yveltal and then we'll be in the same situation as last time. Zacian can do this to a degree, but it doesn't beat literally everything in the meta that's not a revenge killer or bulky dark type. I say that we either ban Calyrex or ban both and suspect Zacian later on.
On an unrelated note, I definitely think that Calyrex is the main problem here. The central problem with the meta imo is that Calyrex beats everything other then Yveltal and is a terrifying sweeper that naturally snowballs. If we ban Zacian, Calyrex will find something else to beat Yveltal and then we'll be in the same situation as last time. Zacian can do this to a degree, but it doesn't beat literally everything in the meta that's not a revenge killer or bulky dark type. I say that we either ban Calyrex or ban both and suspect Zacian later on.
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