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That's not the argument that was presented at all. The argument is that HDB makes already very potent moves (volt switch/u-turn) way too good. Nobody was saying the item was broken, it's specifically boots + pivot moves.
Even Choice band made pivoting moves way too good, indeed darmanitan pheromosa and genesect (and to a lesser extent urshifu) were so strong mostly because huge attack granted by band + pivoting move in the form of uturn (pheromosa and genesect had more sets than darmanitan but still their band + uturn set was extremely annoying to deal with)
In the end no one thought to ban choice band rather than the specific pokemon, so the discussion about getting rid of heavy duty boots makes no sense for me.
Even Choice band made pivoting moves way too good, indeed darmanitan pheromosa and genesect (and to a lesser extent urshifu) were so strong mostly because huge attack granted by band + pivoting move in the form of uturn (pheromosa and genesect had more sets than darmanitan but still their band + uturn set was extremely annoying to deal with)
In the end no one thought to ban choice band rather than the specific pokemon, so the discussion about getting rid of heavy duty boots makes no sense for me.
Again, you're ignoring why everyone specifically brought up boots as a problematic combo. It completely negates the best counterplay to VoltTurn spam, hazard damage. There's a reason that rocky helmet has become so common, it's the only way to punish all the switch moves flying around, and even then if it's not a ground type with reliable recovery, it's still going to get chipped by volt switch. Band/scarf definitely synergise well with the the moves, but boots are on a whole 'nother level. Even G-Darm still occasionally considered using them even though choice items were the most optimal item for it. Every body brings up Cinderace because it's the best example, but there are multiple pokemon who do the exact same thing. Our issue is with the strategy, not one pokemon using the strategy. It really takes a lot of skill out of the game now that the best counter play is gone.
This is the last time I'm going to bring this up for now because Finch politely asked us to stop, and I'd rather not have the thread locked.
I appreciate this! I’d be happy to discuss it more in a private setting and always will keep an open mind for the sake of the metagame, but I worry this topic will derail this thread given some of the posters. Never hesitate to reach out
It is too hard to punish Ace cause of boots, in actuality it is weak to every form of hazard but boots is what makes Cinderace a problem to deal with. The teleport spam allowed due to boots and making Regen mons stronger, being unable to punish them through hazard control is very unhealthy. Heavy Duty Boots is a very obnoxious item, but again seeing as it's considered one of those "gen 8 things" I dont see it being looked at in the near future.
Can you prove that Boots Dragapult, Boots Zeraora, Boots Volcarona and Boots Moltres are broken and problematic Pokemon in the metagame? Is Boots so good that if I swap out Leftovers for Boots on a Heatran it will always preform better? Is Boots even a major problem in tiers outside of OU?
Answer these questions and then come back with this argument.
Can you prove that Boots Dragapult, Boots Zeraora, Boots Volcarona and Boots Moltres are broken and problematic Pokemon in the metagame? Is Boots so good that if I swap out Leftovers for Boots on a Heatran it will always preform better? Is Boots even a major problem in tiers outside of OU?
Answer these questions and then come back with this argument.
Please read my previous post to see what we're claiming is the problem. It's not the item or any individual mon, it's a specific strategy enabled by boots
Speaking of pult, it's significantly better now that urshifu is no longer the king of the tier. Wisp hex is still a great set along with specs. Dragon dance is pretty good but hard to justify with all the fairies in the tier prevent it using its best physical move, dragon darts. Boots pivot is also really good at general harassment and speed control, and scarf is the only way to 100% reliably revenge kill Spec, but it's a niche set at best. Screens setter is pretty outclassed with koko and regieleki back in the tier. In general it's a very solid offensive glue mon, and should definitely be explored more
Remember Nasty Plot Hydreigon in DLC1? Remember how Choice Specs Exploud got ranked because of its power and ability to check Spectrier? Meet Porygon-Z. Porygon-Z actually hits harder than Exploud with Adaptability Tri Attack, and while it does not boast the level of coverage Exploud has, Porygon-Z has Nasty Plot, which boosts its Special Attack to astronomical levels and allows it to do some serious wallbreaking. BoltBeam coverage helps out greatly against birds (particularly Corviknight) and Dragons, as well as Landorus-T. On top of that, Porygon-Z has some other options to hit certain foes with, most notably Shadow Ball for Spectrier and Recover for, well, recovery. Speaking of Spectrier, Porygon-Z is a great offensive check to variants without Dark Pulse, as it is immune to Ghost.
Porygon-Z's role is to take advantage of defensive switches like Heatran or Ferrothorn to set up a Nasty Plot and then firing off an attack, just like most other boosting wallbreakers. Porygon-Z can also take advantage of a good portion of the meta, such as Toxapex and all of the defogging birds. Offensive pivoting is also at an all-time high, which means the offensive pivot can go to Porygon-Z to take advantage of the slower, defensive Pokemon that was forced in by the pivot. Cinderace is a good partner for it, as it naturally forces in Pokemon like Toxapex, which Porygon-Z can take advantage of. Porygon-Z's strongest point, however, is its sheer power. With Nasty Plot, Life Orb, and Adaptability, Tri Attack reaches nuclear power and anything that doesn't resist Normal will die in extreme pain. If you think that angry Smogoners are terrifying, take a look at this:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 359-424 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blissey, I beg you. The singly best Special tank in the game (besides maybe Eviolite Chansey). Here are some more calcs demonstrating this thing's raw power:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 317-374 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Screw Tbolt lol)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 181-213 (51.4 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 361-426 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 421-497 (99.5 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (What's a Tbolt?)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 372-439 (108.1 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 382-450 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 543-640 (135.7 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 196-231 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 201-238 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 231-273 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 117-139 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (but this thing has no recovery so it can only switch in once)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 165-195 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (same thing here)
I'm not done yet. Recall that LO Swords Dance Kartana uses Giga Impact to break massive holes in enemy teams. Well, for Porygon-Z, Hyper Beam is practically a Z-Move in terms of power. It might be a bit hard to fit, but you will be shocked by the amount of power it offers and the amount of holes it makes in the opposite team. While Exploud has Focus Blast and Overheat for Steel-types, Porygon-Z have this incredibly potent nuke. It basically guarentees a kill against most opposing teams. Starting with this one:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 671-790 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
BOOM
Not even bulky resists can take a hit:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 334-394 (86.5 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 302-355 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 455-536 (115.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 311-367 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 451-532 (112.7 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 554-653 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 169-199 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
RBY Tauros would be proud
So, the only things that can take a +2 Hyper Beam and not die are 1) Assult Vested resists 2) 4x resists 3) Specially Defensive Rock-types in a sandstorm and 4) Ghost-types. It should be a no-brainer, then, that Hyper Beam is best ran with Shadow Ball. However, if you manage to get to +2, you almost always get a free kill by just clicking Hyper Beam. I might also add that Porygon-Z 2HKOes almost the entire game barring Ghost-types and Assult Vest Tyranitar.
To sum up, Porygon-Z absolutely ravages bulkier team. It obviously struggles against more offensive teams due to its average speed and low bulk, but it should definately be considered as a wallbreaker to use. That pretty much sums up the post I have about this stupid niche mon, so thanks for reading and have a nice day!
Also I shouldn't even need to say this at this point but I would greatly appreciate it if you point out anything wrong I said. Thank you!
Remember Nasty Plot Hydreigon in DLC1? Remember how Choice Specs Exploud got ranked because of its power and ability to check Spectrier? Meet Porygon-Z. Porygon-Z actually hits harder than Exploud with Adaptability Tri Attack, and while it does not boast the level of coverage Exploud has, Porygon-Z has Nasty Plot, which boosts its Special Attack to astronomical levels and allows it to do some serious wallbreaking. BoltBeam coverage helps out greatly against birds (particularly Corviknight) and Dragons, as well as Landorus-T. On top of that, Porygon-Z has some other options to hit certain foes with, most notably Shadow Ball for Spectrier and Recover for, well, recovery. Speaking of Spectrier, Porygon-Z is a great offensive check to variants without Dark Pulse, as it is immune to Ghost.
Porygon-Z's role is to take advantage of defensive switches like Heatran or Ferrothorn to set up a Nasty Plot and then firing off an attack, just like most other boosting wallbreakers. Porygon-Z can also take advantage of a good portion of the meta, such as Toxapex and all of the defogging birds. Offensive pivoting is also at an all-time high, which means the offensive pivot can go to Porygon-Z to take advantage of the slower, defensive Pokemon that was forced in by the pivot. Cinderace is a good partner for it, as it naturally forces in Pokemon like Toxapex, which Porygon-Z can take advantage of. Porygon-Z's strongest point, however, is its sheer power. With Nasty Plot, Life Orb, and Adaptability, Tri Attack reaches nuclear power and anything that doesn't resist Normal will die in extreme pain. If you think that angry Smogoners are terrifying, take a look at this:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 359-424 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blissey, I beg you. The singly best Special tank in the game (besides maybe Eviolite Chansey). Here are some more calcs demonstrating this thing's raw power:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 317-374 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Screw Tbolt lol)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 181-213 (51.4 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 361-426 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 421-497 (99.5 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (What's a Tbolt?)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 372-439 (108.1 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 382-450 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 543-640 (135.7 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 196-231 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 201-238 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 231-273 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 117-139 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (but this thing has no recovery so it can only switch in once)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 165-195 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (same thing here)
I'm not done yet. Recall that LO Swords Dance Kartana uses Giga Impact to break massive holes in enemy teams. Well, for Porygon-Z, Hyper Beam is practically a Z-Move in terms of power. It might be a bit hard to fit, but you will be shocked by the amount of power it offers and the amount of holes it makes in the opposite team. While Exploud has Focus Blast and Overheat for Steel-types, Porygon-Z have this incredibly potent nuke. It basically guarentees a kill against most opposing teams. Starting with this one:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 671-790 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
BOOM
Not even bulky resists can take a hit:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 334-394 (86.5 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 302-355 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 455-536 (115.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 311-367 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 451-532 (112.7 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 554-653 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 169-199 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
RBY Tauros would be proud
So, the only things that can take a +2 Hyper Beam and not die are 1) Assult Vested resists 2) 4x resists 3) Specially Defensive Rock-types in a sandstorm and 4) Ghost-types. It should be a no-brainer, then, that Hyper Beam is best ran with Shadow Ball. However, if you manage to get to +2, you almost always get a free kill by just clicking Hyper Beam. I might also add that Porygon-Z 2HKOes almost the entire game barring Ghost-types and Assult Vest Tyranitar.
To sum up, Porygon-Z absolutely ravages bulkier team. It obviously struggles against more offensive teams due to its average speed and low bulk, but it should definately be considered as a wallbreaker to use. That pretty much sums up the post I have about this stupid niche mon, so thanks for reading and have a nice day!
Also I shouldn't even need to say this at this point but I would greatly appreciate it if you point out anything wrong I said. Thank you!
This is great! I was already planning to use PZ soon and I think this will prompt me to do just that.
I think there's one thing you're missing, though. Exploud isn't just a good Spectrier check because it's immune to ghost. It's other draw that lets it handle most spectrier variants is that it can hit Spectrier with a STAB Boomburst, which means it doesn't need to click a coverage move. The other and most important thing is that Boomburst hits Spectrier behind sub, so if Spectrier subs on the switch (as they most commonly do), they won't get a free turn to Dark Pulse/burn Exploud, as Exploud will deal a huge amount of damage to them through sub.
Also with NP Hyper Beam you might want to consider running Modest to assure KOs on mons like Ferrothorn and Heatran. I don't have any experience with PZ in this meta but it seems like you'd want those mons to die instead of living on very low health.
I have been pondering something about mandibuzz lately. Since people seem to mostly use it to check spectrier, and use double dark moves for it even though they kinda suck at countering spectrier and in general, wouldn't it be better to use whirlwind instead of foul play? that way it can actually stop spectrier from setting up, instead of hitting a sub with a dinky burned knock off or foul play and still occasionally getting set up on. it would be pretty safe to do so since the worst you could conceivably get hit by before using whirlwind from a setup spectrier is +1 hex while burned, and that does:
+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 147-174 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
which is still relatively comfortable, especially with keeping in mind that spectrier needs to sub up against mandi since it still doesnt want to lose lefties to knock, so if it goes sub->CM->hex, you can come in->roost->Whirlwind
Other bonuses of whirlwind include that each time you drag spectrier out when you whirlwind something else, it takes rocks and/or spikes, which can exert considerable pressure on it.
Other nice things are making mandibuzz much harder to become the starting point for uturn spam, since you can just whirlwind if you think you are getting uturned on, messing up their momentum. This can also mess up futureport, since if slowbro future sights you can whirlwind on the teleport, which means it's unlikely that exactly the breaker they want is coming in and you can just comfortably eat the future sight. It also works well with hazards, if you knock off some shoes, it can make a lot of progress when chain whirlwinding teams. And it can also help with some other setup sweepers like shift gear magearna since mandibuzz can take hits from it relatively decently after one calm mind(meaning it can probably survive any one hit commonly found on such sets, and as far as I know it doesn't run fleur cannon on such sets).
So all in all, it just seems to me like whirlwind would be much better on mandibuzz instead of foul play against both spectrier and in general. Some drawbacks though are if the spectrier is the last mon on their team, which honestly doesn't really seem to be the case often as it usually either sweeps or gets taken out before that, and that it doesn't hit some mons as hard, but foul play doing phat damage didnt really seem to happen anyways most of the time.
Remember Nasty Plot Hydreigon in DLC1? Remember how Choice Specs Exploud got ranked because of its power and ability to check Spectrier? Meet Porygon-Z. Porygon-Z actually hits harder than Exploud with Adaptability Tri Attack, and while it does not boast the level of coverage Exploud has, Porygon-Z has Nasty Plot, which boosts its Special Attack to astronomical levels and allows it to do some serious wallbreaking. BoltBeam coverage helps out greatly against birds (particularly Corviknight) and Dragons, as well as Landorus-T. On top of that, Porygon-Z has some other options to hit certain foes with, most notably Shadow Ball for Spectrier and Recover for, well, recovery. Speaking of Spectrier, Porygon-Z is a great offensive check to variants without Dark Pulse, as it is immune to Ghost.
Porygon-Z's role is to take advantage of defensive switches like Heatran or Ferrothorn to set up a Nasty Plot and then firing off an attack, just like most other boosting wallbreakers. Porygon-Z can also take advantage of a good portion of the meta, such as Toxapex and all of the defogging birds. Offensive pivoting is also at an all-time high, which means the offensive pivot can go to Porygon-Z to take advantage of the slower, defensive Pokemon that was forced in by the pivot. Cinderace is a good partner for it, as it naturally forces in Pokemon like Toxapex, which Porygon-Z can take advantage of. Porygon-Z's strongest point, however, is its sheer power. With Nasty Plot, Life Orb, and Adaptability, Tri Attack reaches nuclear power and anything that doesn't resist Normal will die in extreme pain. If you think that angry Smogoners are terrifying, take a look at this:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 359-424 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blissey, I beg you. The singly best Special tank in the game (besides maybe Eviolite Chansey). Here are some more calcs demonstrating this thing's raw power:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 317-374 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Screw Tbolt lol)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 181-213 (51.4 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 361-426 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 421-497 (99.5 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (What's a Tbolt?)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 372-439 (108.1 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 382-450 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 543-640 (135.7 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 196-231 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 201-238 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 231-273 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 117-139 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (but this thing has no recovery so it can only switch in once)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 165-195 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (same thing here)
I'm not done yet. Recall that LO Swords Dance Kartana uses Giga Impact to break massive holes in enemy teams. Well, for Porygon-Z, Hyper Beam is practically a Z-Move in terms of power. It might be a bit hard to fit, but you will be shocked by the amount of power it offers and the amount of holes it makes in the opposite team. While Exploud has Focus Blast and Overheat for Steel-types, Porygon-Z have this incredibly potent nuke. It basically guarentees a kill against most opposing teams. Starting with this one:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 671-790 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
BOOM
Not even bulky resists can take a hit:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 334-394 (86.5 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 302-355 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 455-536 (115.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 311-367 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 451-532 (112.7 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 554-653 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 169-199 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
RBY Tauros would be proud
So, the only things that can take a +2 Hyper Beam and not die are 1) Assult Vested resists 2) 4x resists 3) Specially Defensive Rock-types in a sandstorm and 4) Ghost-types. It should be a no-brainer, then, that Hyper Beam is best ran with Shadow Ball. However, if you manage to get to +2, you almost always get a free kill by just clicking Hyper Beam. I might also add that Porygon-Z 2HKOes almost the entire game barring Ghost-types and Assult Vest Tyranitar.
To sum up, Porygon-Z absolutely ravages bulkier team. It obviously struggles against more offensive teams due to its average speed and low bulk, but it should definately be considered as a wallbreaker to use. That pretty much sums up the post I have about this stupid niche mon, so thanks for reading and have a nice day!
Also I shouldn't even need to say this at this point but I would greatly appreciate it if you point out anything wrong I said. Thank you!
Back when I was doing Secret Santa I got this request for PZ, me and Starmei spent like 2 hours talking about how to make this thing viable. I think the Nasty Plot sets like you said would be the way to go. We also considered something like Rest Chesto with Tri, Shadow Ball, Rest, Nasty Plot since it's usually on a timer to begin with and its only goal is to break fat anyways.
saw Lilburr's post and it reminded me of a Goon set I liked for beating Corviknight 1v1 in Home and stuff
Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up
- Obstruct
+1 252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -2 128 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 406-478 (91.6 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -2 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 414-487 (103.5 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -2 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 411-484 (116.7 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 313-370 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
pretty simple set, BU on a forced switch and then Obstruct on a pokemon that would normally tank your Knock and take you out. also serves the dual purpose of beating sub disable Spect by taking the Disable with its Obstruct (works like kings shield so disable goes thru it), Also beneficial for getting your orb off vs knock mons like Pex directly so pretty much a win win.
I think switcheroo is useless garbage with how few mons are packing Lefties atm and CC is just entirely unneeded coverage for the MUs that goon excels in, (mage dies to Knock>Facade>Facade anyways) so you aren't really losing anything of incredible valuable by using these, not to mention being able to Tect scout and eat up Future Sights is great utility. Ada confirms some KOs like Melm that normally would've evaded you but I consider it both not worth and kinda bad when minor chip gets them in range anyways.
I might post replays idk I haven't really played much recently, this is just a set I'm confident works from past experience
ban spectrier please
e: SWEET MOTHER OF GOD YES FINALLY
I know I said I wouldn't make another post, but I feel like there are way too many misconceptions going around, and some things that I need to take care of. I got permission from Finch to make this post, so plz spare me mods.
I genuinely and truly don’t mean any of this in a disrespectful way, but an entire competitive community is not going to reshape their entire tiering and banning philosophy because you want to use your favorite starter on Showdown. If you want to advocate for a suspect or ban, you should absolutely do it. But in the interest of not wasting your own time, at least go into it with a basic understanding of how Smogon works. The reality of the situation is that the simplest solution is often the best one, and if this issue is deemed broken, the simplest solution is a suspect/ ban for Cinderace.
You need to check your sense of superiority. You can disagree with me all you want, in fact I greatly encourage it if you have a good counter point or if I say something wrong, but being a condescending ass isn't the way to do it. Saying "I don't mean to be disrespectful" doesn't make what you're about to say any less disrespectful. And guess what? I can have an opinion that you disagree with and still know what I'm talking about. Assuming that I know nothing about Smogon because you disagree with me is both shitty and wrong. This is a discussion thread, not a popular ideas circle jerk.
Having said my that, I just want to clarify, I'm not trying to start beef. I don't know you, and I don't want to dislike you. I'm generally rather non-confrontational, but I have my limits, and I'm getting real tired of people looking down on me because they don't agree with me. I think that what you did was a dick move, but I don't think you're a dick. I've done some really stupid things here too. We all make mistakes. So please, in the future, think about how you're talking to people and don't assume the worst about people. Because believe me, I've edited this down in harshness of tone quite a lot as this went on, and I was really pissed when I first read your post. If I hadn't waited to cool down and ask for permission from Finch before posting this I probably would've crossed the line myself.
Same goes to 658Greninja's post, which was the one I was really close to responding to in my second post.
And just a word of advice to everyone, not just any one person, completely read through posts before responding, because so many people clearly didn't. In fact, most people didn't. The only ones who I can 100% tell read through it all are DutroPodoboo and musiquepkmn, the only ones who have acknowledged that Cinderace wasn't my problem with HDB VoltTurn. I can understand, it's a long ass post, but I don't appreciate when people assume I'm an idiot because they didn't completely read what I wrote. In my post, not once did I state or imply that my problem was with Cinderace. In fact, aside from being the example that I use, and a small blurb near the beginning on why it's so strong, Cinderace is unimportant to the point I was trying to make, that Heavy Duty Boots and Volt Turn are broken in conjunction with one another because they take skill out of interactions, create chains of dead turns, and something that I didn't touch on as much as I should have, they force other switch moves as the only other counter.
I just don't get how this misconception about Ace continues. There's been like three different posts that are just one liners making some gotcha argument against a point no one is making. Please, for the love of god, know what you're even arguing about before you make a post about it.
I think I've gabbed about the mechanics of VoltTurn enough, I wrote a 2000 word post over it afterall. So it would be redundant to talk about it more. So please, if you need more reasoning on why we think it's broken, read my original post and musiquepkmn's post. They go very in-depth.
Anyways, I think that's all I have to say. Have a good day, try not to be a dum dum, and peace.
Buzzwole is S++ tier and should be quickbanned to save the tier from his raw Chad energy
I know I said I wouldn't make another post, but I feel like there are way too many misconceptions going around, and some things that I need to take care of. I got permission from Finch to make this post, so plz spare me mods.
First, the ugly part.
You need to check your sense of superiority. You can disagree with me all you want, in fact I greatly encourage it if you have a good counter point or if I say something wrong, but being a condescending ass isn't the way to do it. Saying "I don't mean to be disrespectful" doesn't make what you're about to say any less disrespectful. And guess what? I can have an opinion that you disagree with and still know what I'm talking about. Assuming that I know nothing about Smogon because you disagree with me is both shitty and wrong. This is a discussion thread, not a popular ideas circle jerk.
Having said my that, I just want to clarify, I'm not trying to start beef. I don't know you, and I don't want to dislike you. I'm generally rather non-confrontational, but I have my limits, and I'm getting real tired of people looking down on me because they don't agree with me. I think that what you did was a dick move, but I don't think you're a dick. I've done some really stupid things here too. We all make mistakes. So please, in the future, think about how you're talking to people and don't assume the worst about people. Because believe me, I've edited this down in harshness of tone quite a lot as this went on, and I was really pissed when I first read your post. If I hadn't waited to cool down and ask for permission from Finch before posting this I probably would've crossed the line myself.
Same goes to 658Greninja's post, which was the one I was really close to responding to in my second post.
And just a word of advice to everyone, not just any one person, completely read through posts before responding, because so many people clearly didn't. In fact, most people didn't. The only ones who I can 100% tell read through it all are DutroPodoboo and musiquepkmn, the only ones who have acknowledged that Cinderace wasn't my problem with HDB VoltTurn. I can understand, it's a long ass post, but I don't appreciate when people assume I'm an idiot because they didn't completely read what I wrote. In my post, not once did I state or imply that my problem was with Cinderace. In fact, aside from being the example that I use, and a small blurb near the beginning on why it's so strong, Cinderace is unimportant to the point I was trying to make, that Heavy Duty Boots and Volt Turn are broken in conjunction with one another because they take skill out of interactions, create chains of dead turns, and something that I didn't touch on as much as I should have, they force other switch moves as the only other counter.
I just don't get how this misconception about Ace continues. There's been like three different posts that are just one liners making some gotcha argument against a point no one is making. Please, for the love of god, know what you're even arguing about before you make a post about it.
I think I've gabbed about the mechanics of VoltTurn enough, I wrote a 2000 word post over it afterall. So it would be redundant to talk about it more. So please, if you need more reasoning on why we think it's broken, read my original post and musiquepkmn's post. They go very in-depth.
Anyways, I think that's all I have to say. Have a good day, try not to be a dum dum, and peace.
Buzzwole is S++ tier and should be quickbanned to save the tier from his raw Chad energy
I appreciate your measured response, and apologize for coming off in a way that was condescending or dickish. Anytime I was saying “you” it was more just the general “you” rather than any user(s) in particular.
I was only trying to lay the discussion to rest after so much time had been spent on it and Finch had specifically requested people drop it. I am totally in agreement that there’s something worth suspecting and potentially banning, and though we disagree on what that might be (Cinderace in my case, HDB + pivoting moves in your case) I think we’re more in agreement than it might seem. Rather than continuing to keep flooding this threat with unwanted or off-topic conversations, I’d be happy to keep this going over PMs
I have been pondering something about mandibuzz lately. Since people seem to mostly use it to check spectrier, and use double dark moves for it even though they kinda suck at countering spectrier and in general, wouldn't it be better to use whirlwind instead of foul play? that way it can actually stop spectrier from setting up, instead of hitting a sub with a dinky burned knock off or foul play and still occasionally getting set up on. it would be pretty safe to do so since the worst you could conceivably get hit by before using whirlwind from a setup spectrier is +1 hex while burned, and that does:
+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 147-174 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
which is still relatively comfortable, especially with keeping in mind that spectrier needs to sub up against mandi since it still doesnt want to lose lefties to knock, so if it goes sub->CM->hex, you can come in->roost->Whirlwind
Other bonuses of whirlwind include that each time you drag spectrier out when you whirlwind something else, it takes rocks and/or spikes, which can exert considerable pressure on it.
Other nice things are making mandibuzz much harder to become the starting point for uturn spam, since you can just whirlwind if you think you are getting uturned on, messing up their momentum. This can also mess up futureport, since if slowbro future sights you can whirlwind on the teleport, which means it's unlikely that exactly the breaker they want is coming in and you can just comfortably eat the future sight. It also works well with hazards, if you knock off some shoes, it can make a lot of progress when chain whirlwinding teams. And it can also help with some other setup sweepers like shift gear magearna since mandibuzz can take hits from it relatively decently after one calm mind(meaning it can probably survive any one hit commonly found on such sets, and as far as I know it doesn't run fleur cannon on such sets).
So all in all, it just seems to me like whirlwind would be much better on mandibuzz instead of foul play against both spectrier and in general. Some drawbacks though are if the spectrier is the last mon on their team, which honestly doesn't really seem to be the case often as it usually either sweeps or gets taken out before that, and that it doesn't hit some mons as hard, but foul play doing phat damage didnt really seem to happen anyways most of the time.
I see were you are coming from, whirlwind is an exceptional move for a bulky mon and it can definitely work on some teams, but it's just that foul play is more reliable. Not only is it stronger than knock off, but knock off becomes exceptionally weaker after the opponents item is already gone, so against non-item mons, foul-play is the move of choice. It deals heavy damage especially to powerful physical attackers, who mandibuzz is gonna wall anyways, and should they try to overpower the bird with swords dance or bulk-up, foul-play punishes that since it does more damage based on the opponents attack stat. Now like i said, whirlwind has its advantages, it also messes up setup sweepers, can rack up entry hazard damage, and gets certain pokemon out of your face, like magearna trying to get a free setup. The only issues with this is that your mandibuzz becomes more passive, relying only on knock off (which admittingly is still good enough for some mons like spectrier), and entry hazards. You are forced to have hazard setting teammates, and you dont even have room to put toxic on mandibuzz, so while whirlwind may annoy the heck out of your opponents, your mandibuzz wont be doing too much except defogging, knocking off items and racking up hazard damage, which isnt too bad, but should be saved for more hardcore stall teams that use lots of hazards.
Anyone try or have thoughts on Earth Power on defensive Lando over Earthquake in niche situations? It's been working out for me as I'm rarely trying to get a KO on anything other than Heatran and the like. OHKOs Kart after rocks which is the reason I switched as the team was weak to it. Helps with Melmetal when it's weakened, isn't bothered by intimidating/burn/bulk up, and helps vs non-cm specterier since can switch in on burn
I'm so glad Spectrier is being suspected first. While maybe not as conventionally strong or broken as mag/ace, the restrictions it places on team building just isn't healthy. Thank you, council!
Anyone try or have thoughts on Earth Power on defensive Lando over Earthquake in niche situations? It's been working out for me as I'm rarely trying to get a KO on anything other than Heatran and the like. OHKOs Kart after rocks which is the reason I switched as the team was weak to it. Helps with Melmetal when it's weakened, isn't bothered by intimidating/burn/bulk up, and helps vs non-cm specterier since can switch in on burn
Hmm, from what i see earth power is better against kartana(possible ohko vs. possible possible2hko), vs spdef invested sets of melmetal they are about the same, earth power is slightly better against choice sets of melmetal, EQ is slightly better against tran since you can OHKO with it, and vs glowking earthquake is miles better. this is taking into account uninvested attack or special attack on lando
Remember Nasty Plot Hydreigon in DLC1? Remember how Choice Specs Exploud got ranked because of its power and ability to check Spectrier? Meet Porygon-Z. Porygon-Z actually hits harder than Exploud with Adaptability Tri Attack, and while it does not boast the level of coverage Exploud has, Porygon-Z has Nasty Plot, which boosts its Special Attack to astronomical levels and allows it to do some serious wallbreaking. BoltBeam coverage helps out greatly against birds (particularly Corviknight) and Dragons, as well as Landorus-T. On top of that, Porygon-Z has some other options to hit certain foes with, most notably Shadow Ball for Spectrier and Recover for, well, recovery. Speaking of Spectrier, Porygon-Z is a great offensive check to variants without Dark Pulse, as it is immune to Ghost.
Porygon-Z's role is to take advantage of defensive switches like Heatran or Ferrothorn to set up a Nasty Plot and then firing off an attack, just like most other boosting wallbreakers. Porygon-Z can also take advantage of a good portion of the meta, such as Toxapex and all of the defogging birds. Offensive pivoting is also at an all-time high, which means the offensive pivot can go to Porygon-Z to take advantage of the slower, defensive Pokemon that was forced in by the pivot. Cinderace is a good partner for it, as it naturally forces in Pokemon like Toxapex, which Porygon-Z can take advantage of. Porygon-Z's strongest point, however, is its sheer power. With Nasty Plot, Life Orb, and Adaptability, Tri Attack reaches nuclear power and anything that doesn't resist Normal will die in extreme pain. If you think that angry Smogoners are terrifying, take a look at this:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 359-424 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blissey, I beg you. The singly best Special tank in the game (besides maybe Eviolite Chansey). Here are some more calcs demonstrating this thing's raw power:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 317-374 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Screw Tbolt lol)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 181-213 (51.4 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 361-426 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 421-497 (99.5 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (What's a Tbolt?)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 372-439 (108.1 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 382-450 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 543-640 (135.7 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 196-231 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 201-238 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 231-273 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 117-139 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (but this thing has no recovery so it can only switch in once)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 165-195 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (same thing here)
I'm not done yet. Recall that LO Swords Dance Kartana uses Giga Impact to break massive holes in enemy teams. Well, for Porygon-Z, Hyper Beam is practically a Z-Move in terms of power. It might be a bit hard to fit, but you will be shocked by the amount of power it offers and the amount of holes it makes in the opposite team. While Exploud has Focus Blast and Overheat for Steel-types, Porygon-Z have this incredibly potent nuke. It basically guarentees a kill against most opposing teams. Starting with this one:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 671-790 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
BOOM
Not even bulky resists can take a hit:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 334-394 (86.5 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 302-355 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 455-536 (115.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 311-367 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 451-532 (112.7 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 554-653 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 169-199 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
RBY Tauros would be proud
So, the only things that can take a +2 Hyper Beam and not die are 1) Assult Vested resists 2) 4x resists 3) Specially Defensive Rock-types in a sandstorm and 4) Ghost-types. It should be a no-brainer, then, that Hyper Beam is best ran with Shadow Ball. However, if you manage to get to +2, you almost always get a free kill by just clicking Hyper Beam. I might also add that Porygon-Z 2HKOes almost the entire game barring Ghost-types and Assult Vest Tyranitar.
To sum up, Porygon-Z absolutely ravages bulkier team. It obviously struggles against more offensive teams due to its average speed and low bulk, but it should definately be considered as a wallbreaker to use. That pretty much sums up the post I have about this stupid niche mon, so thanks for reading and have a nice day!
Also I shouldn't even need to say this at this point but I would greatly appreciate it if you point out anything wrong I said. Thank you!
Since Spectrier is currently under the ban hammer, I wanted to share some techs for you guys to utilize the very few weeks before the ban.
I currently have 2 true counters (which are really more of checks) due to partners capable of supporting Spectrier for late game.
Basically I made this set to beat some Mandibuzz variants more specifically the ones running Knock off + Foul Play.
As my past spread I covered over I mentioned that it can 1v1 Foul Play Mandi but I never mentioned Knock Off.
0- Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 96 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 76-91 (20.8 - 24.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
With leftovers:
0 Atk burned Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 96 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 109-129 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- 19.5% chance to 3HKO
Unfortunately this breaks the Sub due to leftovers boosting the power of Knock Off, to bypass this I just simply added a Sitrus Berry to recover HP.
Simple and also effective.
Without Item:
0 Atk burned Mandibuzz Knock Off vs. 96 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 73-87 (20 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
The same principle as the other set, the only main difference is the addition of Hyper Beam, while Mandibuzz is incapable of breaking the substitute you can boost up just enough to knock it out with Hyper Beam.
I slashed Calm Mind and Hyper Beam here, cm helps you set up on Clefable, while Nasty Plot manages to obtain the boost vs Snarl Hydreigon. I like to partner this with Wisp or Twave Dragapult which lures in Mandi and Clefable and cripple them.
Hyper Beam may sound punishable but only if the sub is broken or the opponent has multi hitting move mons like Garchomp or Triple Axel Weavile for example.
Calcs:
I put calcs for +2 to replicate Nasty Plot. (my personal preference for current meta)
+2 116 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 189-222 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
+2 116 SpA Spectrier Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 291-343 (68.7 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
+2 116 SpA Spectrier Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 353-416 (90.9 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(if they are snarl they cannot break the sub)
Spectrier is an interesting case. I don't think spectrier is as "broken" in the traditional sense as something like pheromosa or Urshifu, but I do think it's as unhealthy, if not more than those two. The ghost horse is incredibly restrictive on teambuilding. It basically requires you to dedicate a team slot to either a normal or a dark type. It's kind of similar to urshifu forcing you to run buzzwole. Having to run a check for a threat isn't bad on its own, but spectrier's checks are so narrow in typing that it puts a heavy strain on teambuilding. And even then, spectrier usually has ways to work around these checks. So let's look at a few.
Blissey is the only normal type in ou. Spectrier simply can't touch it. That seems pretty good, right? Well, there are some problems. Blissey, as we all know, runs seismic due to its low attacking stats. As we also all know, seismic toss doesn't affect Spectrier so Bliss has to run shadow ball, an inferior set. Spectrier can work around bliss, using sub to block toxic, disable to shut down shadow ball an dark pulse to hit it. Spectrier can also use nasty plot or calm mind to set up in its face.
Mandibuzz is usually mentioned as a check, but I think it is very inconsistent against spectrier. Mandi walls scarf and specs variants but loses to wisp hex sets.
252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 86-102 (20.2 - 24%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after burn damage
0- Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 94-112 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
These two are pretty good spectrier checks although tyranitar doesn't like to get burned.
The thing about these checks is that they are all defensive. Spectrier doesn't have any offensive counterplay outside of suckerpunch. It's too fast and most of the mons that can k'o it back can't switch in safely. And then there's grim neigh. This ability makes the margin of error for fighting this thing extremely narrow. If it kills so much as one of your pokemon, it can quickly snowball and completely sweep you. When Spectrier switches in you pretty much have to immediately drop everything and focus on killing it, and one mistake will usually lead to a loss.
Having to dedicate a slot to running a pokemon of a specific type isn't fun, and spectrier isn't healthy for the meta. It is just too much for the tier to manage, and I believe banning it will open up the meta a lot.
Even though Spectrier is probably going to be banned, I'd like to bring up a fun normal mon that for some reason is (PU) - Audino
. Big shoutout to Yuipo for building the team and coming up with the idea
Audino @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Toxic
It is the only mon with the specific combination of regenerator + wish, which enables it to pass wishes without having to use teleport or healing itself up to full first. This is huge, making it great for scouting sets at little to no risk, especially in this balance/BO dominated meta. In addition, these wishes are super fat since it has a lot of HP. It serves as a very nice check to several OU mons, switching into special attacks like it's nothing and living a lot of physical ones too. In addition to wishpassing, knock and toxic are very nice utility moves which enable it to knock off boots or other items and spread status on potential switchins. Calcs are included below for the curious.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 253-298 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - tank, get the drop, switch out and regen up
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 277-327 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - same concept as above
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 157-187 (38.2 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino in Electric Terrain: 183-216 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 340-402 (82.9 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - tank, scout, and pivot out
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 277-327 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 180-213 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO - if they quiver dance on the switch and you toxic next turn, wish and tect should generally be enough to stall it out
Now for some physical calcs
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 440-522 (107.3 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO - yes, cinderace can ohko it. However, the usage of protect discourages hjk and allows you to easily play around it. (generally other team members should be able to handle it as well)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino in Grassy Terrain: 268-316 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery - lives a glide, doesn't live a wood hammer, but protect allows you to scout. If you know they are LO, just go to your team's rillaboom answer
These are just a few of the many replays I have where audino is able to come in, tank a few hits, spread toxic/knock, and switch out, passing wishes with it.
All this spec talk and VoltTurn complaining is getting a bit boring, so I'm here to talk about a fun mon in the meta.
Mudsdale @ Leftovers
Impish Nature
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Earthquake/High Horsepower
- Body Press
- Toxic/protect
- Stealth Rock
Mudsdale is absolutely hilarious as a physical tank, mostly thanks to its incredible ability, Stamina. It hard walls so many physical threats in the tier, most notably Cinderace and SD Chomp. Stamina leads to incredible calcs, like this:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Scale Shot (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 225-273 (55.6 - 67.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This might look like a 2hko, but the calculator isn't taking into account that Mudsdale now has +3 defense after the scale shot, meaning that chomp can't 2hko you while body press will one shot after the boosts and the defense drop from scale shot. Now I'll be the first to admit that Mudsdale is definitely gimmicky as it lacks reliable recovery and is prone to chip and status damage, but it is incredibly hard for a physical attacker to break through it without a super effective mover or prior chip. This is why I would recommend protect, as especially with grassy terrain it becomes nigh impossible for any physical attacker to break through Mudsdale, while it slowly accumulates defense boosts that power up its body press. Cinderaces best option is to u-turn out, as it has now way of 1v1ing a healthy Mudsdale. Overall I think it definitely has a niche use, especially if you want to add some variety to the ground types you've been using
Wanted to talk about this mon since its been very good in this metagame where fat stuff like Blissey, Clef, Ferrothorn and Pex are still around. Been using this set lately:
Crawdaunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Aqua Jet
Yeah, you might be wondering why its HDB instead of the common Life Orb or Choice Band sets? While Crawdaunt's main focus is to use maximum damage output against fat stuff and revenge kill weakened mons, I think Heavy Duty Boots gives the craw longevity due to hazards, in particular T-Spikes, resurging cuz of Hex Horse and Hex Pult. Crawdaunt is able to continue breaking balance teams that have a fat core to lean on. Knock Off is extremely vital as ever and the SD mind games are pretty funny. Once you get a +2, there's a good chance someone has to sack a mon. Getting chipped by hazards was somewhat a problem cuz you want to use Crawdaunt for as much as possible, thats why I believe HBD was superior in that aspect. Great mon to explore OU with, you can tell matchups with this demon is somewhat favorable rn, and might be even better once Horse goes away.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1268782149 - A good example of Crawdaunt being able to pressure the team from the getgo. Boots was really good in this matchup as it avoids the potential T-Spike and Rocks (which didn't happen lol).
Blissey is the only normal type in ou. Spectrier simply can't touch it. That seems pretty good, right? Well, there are some problems. Blissey, as we all know, runs seismic due to its low attacking stats. As we also all know, seismic toss doesn't affect Spectrier so Bliss has to run shadow ball, an inferior set. Spectrier can work around bliss, using sub to block toxic, disable to shut down shadow ball an dark pulse to hit it. Spectrier can also use nasty plot or calm mind to set up in its face.
Mandibuzz is usually mentioned as a check, but I think it is very inconsistent against spectrier. Mandi walls scarf and specs variants but loses to wisp hex sets.
These two are pretty good spectrier checks although tyranitar doesn't like to get burned.
