Lower Tiers RBY UU Hub

[Sevi 7]

So I have a few minutes and want to follow up my post with a lead VR. We currently don't have one, but I think UU is a good meta to include a lead VR for.

These are in alphabetical order

S
Closest thing to the best lead. It can be countered, but it's not something that is easy to get around. Most teams should have this lead

Tentacruel
The most well-rounded and easiest lead to put on a team. Provides great early game momentum and a standard balanced team can play around Kadabra and Buzz fairly easily.

A
Not as great as an S lead for one reason or another, but still a great lead nevertheless. These are all part of the meta and should be considered regular, non-niche options.

Kadabra
Personally this is my second favorite lead. It's a fast T Wave that can try to hax Hypno. It also hits Haunter really hard and cripples Buzz with a T Wave. Teams with lead Kadabra don't mind it getting para'd itself and can usually base their strat off of Kadabra taking either Para or Hypnosis.

Hypno
Hypno is great for teams that want to catch a lead Kadabra with Hypnosis. Thunder Wave also nabs Tent 15% of the time if it tries to pivot with Wrap. For more offensive teams or ones that don't need to rely on Hypno as much, lead Hypno is a great choice.

B
These leads are solid enough to have a place in the meta, but they are more niche, and a team has to justify running one of these leads.

Electabuzz
This is the 4th best lead imo. It outspeeds Tent and threatens it out. It can T Wave Kadabra and there is the chance that Kadabra gets nothing like 12.5% of the time (goes both ways though), thanks to the speed tie. Unfortunately Hypno lead is pretty much a loser unless Buzz gets lucky.

Haunter
This lead still gets used a bit and it's something you have to know how to play around, but it's not that great. It's a good counter pick if you know your opponent will be going Hypno lead and if it gets a little luck vs Tent lead it can cause some damage there too. Overall it's viable as a lead and a very legitimate choice, but it's not something that I would consider standard or conventional.

C
Technically competitively viable, these are leads that can work in the right matchups and/or on the right teams, but they're not part of the standard meta and should only be remembered that they can exist, and not really worried about.

Dodrio
By praying to the RNGoddess, this hexclops bird can make a decent anti-lead. Body Slam into Hyper Beam kills Tent, but it is a speed tie. Hyper Beam OHKOes Kadabra. Crit Body Slam + Non-crit Body Slam kills Hypno. B Slam and Hyper Beam kills Buzz, but you need a paralysis from B Slam or for Buzz to go for Thunder Wave. Finally, Crit Drill Peck OHKOes Haunter 79.5% of the time.

Persian
Can threaten Tent, Kadabra and Electabuzz leads, but hates Hypno and Haunter leads. Persian can pull off some good initial offense and throw an inexperienced opponent off. It's not as scary on the damagecalc as Dodrio, but Persian's speed and bulk give it a different kind of strength.

D
These are niche leads that can work in a serious game, but they're absolutely team, strategy, and most likely matchup, specific.

Dugtrio
The only real match up that Dug likes leading against is Haunter and Buzz, but both of those are so rare that Dug doesn't really have a claim to fame there. However, there is something to that Dugtrio can do.

Poliwrath
It outspeeds Hypno and can pull of a Hypnosis itself. It takes Tent's moves really well -although it can't do much back without luck and usually ends up with Tent pivoting with Wrap). There's little reason to use this mon over something else, but every once in a while lead Poli has a time to shine.

Venomoth
Veno is the fastest Sleep Powder in the tier, which gives it a leg up on Haunter, who has 15% less accuracy. It also has Stun Spore, which can be a boon to follow up a Sleep Powder. Unfortunately Venomoth packs a Psychic-weakness and still doesn't outspeed Tent, so even if Veno was a more prominent mon, it doesn't seem like it would be all that good.

Venusaur
Venu is faster than Hypno and it carries Sleep Powder. Unlike Veno, it doesn't pack Stun Spore, but Venu is a much better mon than Venomoth and can threaten Tentacruel with Razor Leaf.

Anything below this (and thus E Rank) is not worth mentioning. There are things, like Raichu, who can technically do something that nothing else can do, but that niche is so unappealing in a serious game that it's not worth adding it to a resource. Anyone who can find a proper time to use something this low in a serious game, doesn't need a VR anymore.

 

[Volk]

Alright, the Swiss Tournament is over, and I have a big nomination to make.

Venusaur -> B Rank
Venusaur is an incredibly solid and consistent Pokemon in RBY UU. As you can see from the usage stats after the tour, it outperformed several notable UU Pokemon that currently reside in B Rank. I had immense success with Venusaur throughout the entire tournament, ending with a 5-0 record with the Pokemon. You can check out my replays if you want to see Venusaur in action.
So what makes Venusaur relevant? Well, Venusaur is mainly competing with Tangela and Venusaur has two key features that make it as good or even better. First, Venusaur has a higher speed, which it allows it to overtake two key UU Pokemon, Hypno and Vaporeon (it also ties Dragonite, somewhat surprisingly). This is absolutely huge in this metagame. Thanks to both Wrap, as well as how easy it is to get your opponent to switch to Hypno (just bring in Kadabra or, better yet, lead with Kadabra), Venusaur is incredibly good at finding its way on the field and landing an early and accurate Sleep. Sleep is an underrated gem in RBY UU, and landing it early can greatly facilitate the progress of more offensively oriented teams. Additionally, Venusaur takes a lot of pressure off your own Hypno. Playing Hypnosis Hypno is a miserable experience. The move is inaccurate and it's success often comes from winning speed ties or breaking through paralysis. Venusaur's Sleep Powder opens Hypno up to explore alternative moves like Seismic Toss and occupy a much more consistent position in the match. Second, Venusaur has access to Razor Leaf. Razor Leaf is a surprisingly difficult move to switch into in this tier. Most notably, however, it absolutely terrifies Water-type Pokemon. This plus Sleep makes Venusaur a natural partner to Articuno, as Venusaur can fairly consistently remove Articuno's primary checks and give it Pokemon to set up Agility on. Articuno also happens to matchup well against common Venusaur answers like Dragonite and Dodrio. I'm not exaggerating when I say Articuno+Venusaur is one of the best cores in UU, if you disqualify those including S-Rank Pokemon.
So let's recap here. Venusaur pairs beautifully with some of the best Pokemon in the tier: Kadabra, Hypno, and Articuno. It performed admirably in a tournament setting, even against opponents who could reasonably anticipate facing it. Venusaur is an arguably anti-metagame Pokemon that happens to team well with standard metagame picks. Venusaur deserves to be ranked at B or possibly even higher. It is better than half of the Pokemon currently residing in B Rank. Bring Venusaur to B Rank.

My sincerest apologies to RBY NU players (including myself). The loss of Venusaur will completely reshape the tier.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Let's clean up the more greyish ranks with some common sense.

C+ -> B (Support, Rise to UU)
I am in agreement that Venusaur has cause to be brought up to UU. It's been a pretty constant mention in C&C since it got off the ground and has seen high-level play in the Spotlight Tour even outside of Volk's uses. It's had a phenomenal winrate akin to that of Articuno during this. I am not 100% sure if I agree with it being B rather than B- though, as it does require a team to be built with it in mind, but I may just be being pedantic. Let's bring 'er up.

B -> C+ (Drop to NU)
Poliwrath hasn't been used much at all, having literally zero usage during RBYPL and the Spotlight Tour. In fact, even as far back as the UU World Championship 2019 on Pokemon Perfect, it has not seen usage. From what has been debated in the server prior, it does have a niche, but it isn't enough to justify it being put in B-Tier. Some have panicked, saying it'll break NU dropping it, but this isn't an argument for keeping it in UU: let it drop and ban it to NUBL if it proves to be unbalanced. Shellnuts has said he wants to look for strategies, but right now, keeping Poliwrath in UU is nonsense. Drop it.

B -> C+ (Drop to NU)
I love using AgiliChu, but this isn't enough for UU either. Raichu had a pitiful 28.57% win rate in the Spotlight Tour and was literally used once in RBYPL. It's miles more relevant than Poliwrath in that it actually sees play, but it seems to be more in line with C+ viability than B. Electabuzz is just better most of the time because of it being faster than Tentacruel, and while Raichu is by no means outclassed, holy fuck does it have some issues. Any amount of Wrap chip puts it in Dugtrio range, which makes it very poorly suited for forcing Tentacruel to actually think and switch out during its chains. I suppose you can learn more by reading the analysis I wrote. Raichu is simply not cut out for UU in its current state. Drop it.

D -> UR
Just drop it. I have not seen a lick of Clefable usage in any relevant tour since 2019. Not RBYPL, not the Spotlight Tour, not even in the UU World Championship 2019 on Pokemon Perfect. It's slower than even Hypno, which I'd say directly outclasses it in role compression. It does everything Clefable wants to do but better. Can you use both? Absolutely. Is it worth it? No, you're food for Tentacruel at that point. The other D-ranks have legitimate niches in what they do, Clefable does not. Pinsir has a nuclear SD+HB to punish Rest, Dragonair works alongside Dragonite and Articuno-weak teams, Electrode has guaranteed paralysis and lures Dugtrio in for Explosion, Venomoth works similar to Venusaur but without the Ice weakness (and has a couple of other things but you get the point). At least these D ranks actually touch RoA Live Tours, for what it's worth.

Hipmonlee has argued that Clefable is difficult to switch into (slam+bolt+blizz is v good), which is very true though. It's bulky enough to be a good sleep sack too, which can then open up something like Hypno for your own. It's definitely an interesting line of play, but maybe it's better to see it prove itself more. It absolutely can, just needs a push.

 

[phoopes]

Here are my thoughts on some changes that have been discussed in this thread/on Discord.

I brought it up on the Discord that I think Articuno should move from A- to A. Its win rate has already been mentioned, but I think in comparison to its fellow A- rank Pokemon, Vaporeon, it's just flat-out a step above. I've really taken a shine to Articuno lately (thanks to Volk mentioning VenuCuno cores tbh) and I think I really underrated it in the past. Definitely would like to hear some more opinions though as I think I'm the only one like really pushing for this.

Been a lot of discussion around Venusaur lately, especially on the Discord. Now that I have more games under my belt with it, I definitely think it should go up to B- if not B. I think the consensus (or at least what I've seen) is that it's for sure better than Poliwrath and Raichu though maybe not quite as good as Omastar and Tangela. For me personally I think it's fairly close between Venu, Tangela, and Omastar. In the Discord discussion from yesterday it seemed kind of split as to what order it goes in, but I think it's Tangela>Venu>Omastar... and then everyone yelled at me for underrating Omastar haha. Maybe I'm being too prisoner of the moment with Venu but I think B- is a solid move up for it to start, then maybe we can talk about B a little further down the line.

and I'm pretty ambivalent on these guys, mostly because I've only seen them in friendlies and not in any "serious business" games, as Plague mentioned. Poli has given me more trouble personally in my games against it but I think both are pretty underwhelming. Like I'm not saying they're C rank, they're C+ at worst. But I have seen more usage of some of the C rank 'mons like Aerodactyl and Dewgong than these two, which should really say something. Maybe they just need more experimentation/usage, but maybe they're not worth it. If I had to lean one way though I would say drop to C+.

Honestly I've never even seen this thing in UU so I can't say much about it. But I've at least seen people use the other D-rank 'mons, and even some unranked 'mons. Never Clefable though. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places but yeah I wouldn't mind seeing it go unranked.

 

[Sevi 7]

EDIT: There's a ton of typos and it can be hard to follow along. Sorry about that.

With the ban right around the corner I don't really see much point in changing the VR, and I think nothing should drop into NU or rise out of NU, because that's a much bigger change than a few shuffles. However, I'll chime in on some changes real quick since it's being talked about.

Venusaur C+ => B
I'm not in favor of moving Venusaur yet.. However, I do think that it is proving it self to be a proper UU mon. The Venu + Art core that Volk has made good use of is really something. Volk has shown that it can work with Electrics too. I've also seen Volk use it with Aero to good effect.

Articuno A- => A
I'm in favor of this one. Late-game Art is just such a power house and without a vap or oma to get in its way it can do a lot of damage.

Raichu B- => C
I don't think this is ready to happen yet. People are kind of sleeping on Raichu. It's a good mon and Agility, and Substitute can both be good options to do serious damage in the late game. However, with Golem becoming a pretty niche pick and if Venusaur looking like it could get some legitimate use, I think Raichu's day could be numbered. But again, this is being slept on right now.

Poliwrath B- => C
I'm not in favor of this. Poli is absolutely the biggest sleeper pick in the meta. I really should have used it in the previous tournaments to show it is a proper UU mon. It pairs really well with lead Buzz, it comes in on Dug and no your opponent is threatened by sleep or paralysis, it takes wrap fairly well, it hits fairly hard, has good options and looks like it might be an actual legitimate set-up mon. If Nite gets straight up banned, then Poli gets another free move slot which is great, but Dug also becomes better and there's one less Dug check, which is another thing for Poli to capitalize on. Definitely a mon you should all be including in your teams.

Aerodactyl C => B-
This isn't ready yet, but I think it should be kept in mind for the future. Volk has been making good use of it outside of anti-standard teams which I think has been the biggest holdback on it personally. With things like the Buzz Aero core it was a bit of an anti-meta pick and kinda fell flat when it didn't go up against the standard team. I'm going to start including it in my ideas for teambuilding and not think of it as a niche pick.

Clefable D => UR
I am in favor of this. I just can't find a solid use for Clefable and it can win games, but not in a consistent enough manner for it to be D. If it can find a foothold in the meta, then I think bringing it back up would be good enough for D. But as of now, it's an E rank mon and thus UR, as far as the VR is concerned.

Electrode D => UR
I'm in favor of this one. Electrode was brought out of UR prematurely imo. D Ranks aren't memes, that's E rank. Electrode kind of had an idea of where it could work, but when you look at it from a teambuilding perspective it's hard to justify. It might have some lead or late game potential, but it's a vague concept and is definitely not D rank worthy, at least not yet.

Some E rank mons that I think have potential use, and should be kept in mind and tested with.

Seaking
I know I've been memeing Seaking, but honestly it has some legitimate use and I think on the right team, it could be an appropriate pick over Articuno. I haven't quite found the right team yet, but there have been times where I have an Articuno and legitimately wish that I had Seaking instead. Playing it so much has actually let me really appreciate its subtle differences with Articuno. So, I think we should be open minded to it actually making it onto the VR.

Kabutops
I've been messing with this one a little bit and I'm starting to like it. I'm going with a Slash Rest set right now, but SD also has potential. I haven't found the right team for it to really take advantage of its strenghts, but I think people should be considering it when teambuilding at the very least.

Fearow
I haven't been able to really test this thing, but I like it in theory.Obviously the first idea is to pair it up Dodrio; however, you can also play mind games with your opponent and run something else. So, as they prepare for Dodrio to try and sweep, you come in with something else and completely throw them off. It's super fragile and doesn't do quite enough damage, but I think with Agiliwrap's days numbered, it will have some potential use in the future.

Also huge shoutout to Volk for playtesting and pushing meta. He's really thinking outside of the overused standard and is trying to bring out the most out of sleeper picks. I haven't done it too much, but I think collabing with him to teambuild is fun as well. He's got a good head on his shoulders for sure.

 

[Shellnuts]

Hi, y'all, here are my thoughts on most of the potential changes:

C+ => B:
I support this nomination; I won't harp on about this because everything I would have said has already been covered by phoopes, PvK, and Volk in their posts. Venusaur has its uses and is a viable option on multiple teams and has shown consistent success, it easily deserves to be in B.

A- =>A:
I support this nomination, Articuno is such a volatile Pokemon and absolutely cleans house on so many teams, especially in the late game. However, I think a benefit of Articuno that is understated is how much of a restriction it places on your opponent in the midgame. When you are playing against Articuno, you know that as long as it's around, you need to have at least one Pokemon ready to stop it from running over you, which means that you are dedicating one of your waters to being in reserve for Articuno specifically. This is a fantastic trait to have since waters are such an important defensive piece and being able to keep your opponent from using it without consequence is fantastic. To give two examples of how this plays out, against teams with Tentacruel as their only real Articuno answer, Articuno's existence prevents my opponent from using the best pokemon in the tier since it needs to be healthy to keep Articuno from cleaning through the entire team, while I have no such restriction on my Tentacruel and can run circles around my opponent. Against teams with Vaporeon, my opponent usually keeps their Vaporeon in reserve for Articuno, but now they are playing without an important defensive piece and all the pressure I exert with my Kangaskhan or Persian gets funnelled right into their Hypno which puts a lot of stress on the opponents' team. It has a similar effect in the midgame to a knight which ties down one of your major pieces (queen/rook) to keep your pawn structure from falling apart. It absolutely should move up to A.

B- => C:
I am in favour of Poliwrath dropping. I absolutely agree with Sevi that this is a sleeper pick, It has its merits and I think it could be explored further, however as it currently stands, I don't think Poliwrath should be in UU. If Poliwrath begins to show that potential in future games and shows it's UU worthy then we can bring it back up. But as of now, two years without tournament use really speaks volumes about Poliwrath's place in UU.

B- => C:
I agree with this drop. Raichu is really bad, I really struggle to see why it should stay in UU. AgiliChu may be fun and Substitute can have its uses but using it feels like I am playing a 5v6 for most of the game due to how it needs to be kept in perfect condition to sweep due to its frailty but I can never bring it in since it can't take any hits without severely compromising its use in the endgame and doesn't outspeed Tentacruel and since it gets stuffed by Hypno and Tangela to the ends of the earth. I can't use Raichu as a worse Electabuzz in the midgame with the ability to endgame sweep since doing one comes at the cost of the other. "Oh, but you can change how you use Raichu to suit the matchup, using it as a bad Electabuzz on some matchups while using it as a sweeper in others." The problem is that neither of these roles is valuable enough to justify using Raichu in my eyes. Let's consider the first role Raichu can fill, diet Electabuzz. Electabuzz is already a relatively uncommon Pokemon with some very notable flaws and has a lot of struggles when it is used, now ask yourself whether a worse version of this already flawed Pokemon is worth using in the matchups where Raichu is used as a diet Electabuzz, in my eyes, not really. I wouldn't consider Raichu's value in the matchups it is used as a worse Electabuzz to be enough to keep it in UU. Now let's consider the second option, a sweeper. On the surface, Raichu would seem decent as a sweeper, it has Agility and Substitute and great coverage in an endgame where it can live a hit and deal with Dugtrio, however, the problem with Raichu being used as a sweeper is that you are playing a 5v6 until it can sweep, you are playing a Pokemon down until it can come out, and by that point, you are usually far enough behind that it can't make up the difference to bring back the game. Being good as a sweeper and being a non-factor for the rest of the game still means it isn't useful for most of the game, which is not a sign of a good or even average Pokemon. A Pokemon being usable for only a third of the game where it only performs decently is the sign of a Pokemon which is in a tier much too powerful for it. Both the roles Raichu fills are ones where it is not able to consistently perform to a high enough degree that it can be considered a UU Pokemon, just because it can change which of two roles it wants to fill doesn't change the fact that it is not good at filling either of those roles to the extent one can justify keeping it in UU.

D => UR:
I agree with this drop. I really can't see why you would run this outside of some experiment or off-beat gimmick. It really does not have a place in UU, it's just too weak and doesn't offer enough.

D => UR:
This is the only change I disagree with. Clef may have a lot of problems, but its ability to absorb Thunder Wave and a few hits + Normal STAB and Thunder Wave can let it do some work and trade for something more valuable like Hypno. It is definitely not UU proper but it's got some merit.

I have not seen or used/faced enough of Kabutops, Seaking, or Fearow to comment on them. If others support their nomination the I won't oppose it.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I don't think this is ready to happen yet. People are kind of sleeping on Raichu. It's a good mon and Agility, and Substitute can both be good options to do serious damage in the late game. However, with Golem becoming a pretty niche pick and if Venusaur looking like it could get some legitimate use, I think Raichu's day could be numbered. But again, this is being slept on right now.

The points you're bringing up here are relatively vague. "Good" does not mean "UU" per se, and as pointed out, the tournament play it has seen has been mediocre at best. Its win rate is astronomically low in all annals of play: ladder, tournaments, hell I've seen Raichu teams even drown in live tours. Agility Sweeper is Raichu's main niche, and while it has the potential to work, it's in high competition with more reliable users like Articuno. Even in its positive matchups, I find it to be way too reliant on being in perfect health to work; for example, it only 3HKOes Vaporeon and will take massive damage beating it in the process, now it can't fight Dugtrio. Even setting up in this tier is difficult, you need reliability. Raichu simply doesn't have that and has the gall to ask you to play effectively 5v6 just to function. Until it starts actually winning in high-level play, I believe it needs to go down.

I'm not in favor of this. Poli is absolutely the biggest sleeper pick in the meta. I really should have used it in the previous tournaments to show it is a proper UU mon. It pairs really well with lead Buzz, it comes in on Dug and no your opponent is threatened by sleep or paralysis, it takes wrap fairly well, it hits fairly hard, has good options and looks like it might be an actual legitimate set-up mon. If Nite gets straight up banned, then Poli gets another free move slot which is great, but Dug also becomes better and there's one less Dug check, which is another thing for Poli to capitalize on. Definitely a mon you should all be including in your teams.

You're fairly vague in the highlighted area and I'd strongly suggest you back up your point further. I'm assuming by firepower you mean its STAB Surf/Hydro, by good options I believe you mean Hypnosis and Earthquake access, and by set-up, you believe it could be the tier's one viable Amnesia Sweeper. If I'm wrong, point it out. These are all valid takes, and I agree that Poliwrath does have some redeeming factors.

While Poliwrath can pair well with Electabuzz, this is not only an uncommon lead but an uncommon Pokemon in general. I personally believe it's underrated, but this doesn't seem like a very strong point at the moment, and it seems it will only get worse as Venusaur's usage continues to rise. I agree that the Dugtrio niche is there, but from a broad perspective, I just don't see why this is UU material? A sleeper pick is a C+ or something, not a UU Pokemon. Just because it can work does not mean it has the consistency to meet high-level success.

My issue, however, is that Poliwrath has had no place in the tier for 2 years, and as such, should not be tiered this way. Hell, I'd say it shouldn't have been here in the first place. I can understand experimental/theorymon for C+ and below, but the second you start putting them above the cutoff for UU, I believe this hurts the integrity of the VR. Water-types are in such ridiculously high competition in this tier, I cannot understate this. I don't see why a non-staple Water-type should be considered UU. Hell, Dewgong sees more usage and has more perceived viability, at least from what I've seen, as its niche in just bodying Articuno is quite nice. Should we rise Dewgong in this case? No, because Vaporeon does its job better outside of doing this:

Poliwrath should be demoted to C+ until it actually proves itself in high-level play. I don't think this is asking much. Venusaur has largely proven itself to be UU-viable with Volk's efforts in tournament play, and every single other Pokemon that has been placed in UU has done much of the same. Even Tangela, despite its low usage, has actually seen the light of day in tournaments, as well as live tours. I find it very odd that Poliwrath should remain B- despite not being used at all with literally zero tournament play. On the other hand, Venusaur, a Pokemon that has absolutely seen tournament play and has largely been proven, should remain C+? I'm sorry, what? Has some new research come out that suddenly discredits tournament-level success?

 

[Volk]

We suddenly have a lot more nominations on the slate, so I suppose I should weigh in on them.

Venusaur C+ -> B
Agree. Obviously I agree with this, I proposed it. The only thing is that I have been seeing this Pokemon even more lately, so I think the case for it being B Rank is only getting stronger. Read my original post if you want full details.

Articuno A- -> A
Mixed. This may surprise you, considering how much I used Articuno. My main issue is that I think it is very hard to argue that Articuno is (1) better than Vaporeon and (2) that much better than Vaporeon that they need to be separated by a subrank. I think a better idea than bumping Articuno is combining A and A- Rank into one rank. Vaporeon is still absurdly common and extremely good.

Poliwrath B- -> C
Mixed. Poliwrath is still relatively young in this meta, so holding usage stats from a time period it wasn't around for against it is just kind of unfair. Regardless, I still think Poliwrath is fine in this metagame. Hypnosis is a really good move and Poliwrath will get a lot more freedom to mess around with moves if Dragonite gets banned or otherwise restricted. It is also surprisingly easy to fit on teams, compared to a lot of other B Rank Pokemon. Ultimately though, if this thing drops, it'll go to NUBL faster than you can say "Amnesia," so it hardly matters.

Raichu B- -> C
No Opinion. Here's a hot take: Raichu might be worse than Poliwrath. I don't like Raichu in UU, like at all. I seldom use it and get very little out of it when I do. The only reason why I'm not gung-ho about its drop is that I use it so infrequently, that I feel bad levying judgement. I am especially confused because it seems like I am amidst a paradigm shift, as a bunch of people just a few months ago were telling me Raichu was was underrated. I really don't care where this Pokemon goes at this point.

Aerodactyl C -> B-
Mixed. I know this wasn't really a real nomination, but I think it is fine to move Aerodactyl to C+ if we want to maintain the rank once Venusaur leaves. It isn't that much better than Dewgong, but it is the best C Rank right now, excluding Venusaur.

Electrode D -> UR
Agree. I don't like Electrode very much in UU. However, I am consenting to this nomination not because Electrode is bad, but simply because it is grossly undertested. Electrode was added to the VR prematurely, and doesn't belong next to Pokemon that have at least seen some level of play. Electrode could very easily return to D or go higher, but right now, it doesn't belong on the VR.

Clefable D -> UR
Disagree. Clefable is pretty solid in UU. I still see it from time to time in friendlies and have used it to some success myself. Hipmonlee in particular has done most of the work in advancing Clefable's metagame and has proved its viability. Clefable is fine and dropping it is unwarranted. A rise to C Rank is easier to justify than a drop to UR. Keep it in D for now.

I think that is pretty much every nomination that has been put forth. Let me know if I forgot one. If we make the right changes, we will end up with only two subranks per rank, so that's kind of interesting. Additionally, I have no comment on Sevi's extra mons.
Cheers folks.

edit: In response to PvK's post (see below). Poliwrath has been a lot more tested than stuff like Electrode so I wouldn't compare those two (I know you didn't, but I did mention Electrode). I wouldn't call it, Aerodactyl, Dewgong, etc. undertested at this point personally. I've used all of them quite a lot and I think their current ranks largely reflect their current position in the meta. Poliwrath may not be overly popular in tournaments (which is an issue, I'll grant that), but I have been seeing it in friendlies for months and it is fine. I don't think Poliwrath or any of the other Pokemon I mentioned are in a holding place. The only Pokemon that was in a holding place was Electrode, which I argued should be cut. Ultimately though, I am not fervently opposed to a C Rank Poliwrath. I just think it fits better among the B- crowd right now, even if slightly.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Poliwrath B- -> C
Mixed. Poliwrath is still relatively young in this meta, so holding usage stats from a time period it wasn't around for against it is just kind of unfair. Regardless, I still think Poliwrath is fine in this metagame. Hypnosis is a really good move and Poliwrath will get a lot more freedom to mess around with moves if Dragonite gets banned or otherwise restricted. It is also surprisingly easy to fit on teams, compared to a loft of other B Rank Pokemon. Ultimately though, if this thing drops, it'll go to NUBL faster than you can say "Amnesia," so it hardly matters.

I want to add something in here: if Poliwrath is still young, then why has it been so prematurely placed in UU? This implies it has been undertested. Why is it not being placed with all the other "being tested" Pokemon like Aerodactyl and co? It's definitely fine in the meta, but I don't think holding it in place on the chance action is taking on Dragonite is wise. This feels wrong. I may be misunderstanding what you're saying though, feel free to correct me.

 

[Lusch]

Discussion seems fine. Wanna give my two cents to two nominations:

C+ => B:
I agree. Venusaur has a natural place in the tier. Access to the most accurate sleep move automatically makes it interesting, especially since the other easy options for sleep are mostly Hypnosis-users. Add to that that Venusaur outspeeds Hypno (something that it has over Tangela) and you have a formula that works well enough. These traits (Butterfree or Venomoth have these traits too) backed up by Razor Leaf which is kind of threatening in this tier due to no Fire types lets Venusaur distinguish itself from other Sleep Powder users because it possesses good damage output potential. All in all probably good enough.
We should still be carefull to not overrate the grass sleepers. Not sure if both should be in the same tier/rank. Maybe we need to figure out which one's better.

D => UR:
I disagree. Electrode definitely deserves a ranking. Put it in D if you must (C is probably more accurate). As long as people use Dugtrio instead of Golem as their Ground type, Electrode is dangerous becuase Dugtrio does not check Electrode as comfortably because EQ by far does not KO and Take Down chip on switch ins racks up, especially with the crit rate, such that Electrode can even stay in on Dugtrio and win out in some scenarios thanks to outspeeding. And then you have an Explosion for free . It's not great or anything, but don't underestimate the speed and Explosion. We might have overlooked it and might actually be looking at an electric type that is better than Raichu in this environment (no Golem usage).

 

[Plague von Karma]

D -> UR
Just drop it. I have not seen a lick of Clefable usage in any relevant tour since 2019. Not RBYPL, not the Spotlight Tour, not even in the UU World Championship 2019 on Pokemon Perfect. It's slower than even Hypno, which I'd say directly outclasses it in role compression. It does everything Clefable wants to do but better. Can you use both? Absolutely. Is it worth it? No, you're food for Tentacruel at that point. The other D-ranks have legitimate niches in what they do, Clefable does not. Pinsir has a nuclear SD+HB to punish Rest, Dragonair works alongside Dragonite and Articuno-weak teams, Electrode has guaranteed paralysis and lures Dugtrio in for Explosion, Venomoth works similar to Venusaur but without the Ice weakness (and has a couple of other things but you get the point). At least these D ranks actually touch RoA Live Tours, for what it's worth.

Hipmonlee has argued that Clefable is difficult to switch into (slam+bolt+blizz is v good), which is very true though. It's bulky enough to be a good sleep sack too, which can then open up something like Hypno for your own. It's definitely an interesting line of play, but maybe it's better to see it prove itself more. It absolutely can, just needs a push.

Update on this, since I've been fed the Clef juice and have like 5 teams with it. I've also been spamming it in Live Tournaments whenever possible and found some fairly decent success overall.

I've been testing Clefable a ton recently and found success with it in many contexts. The main niche I've found it to have is its unparalleled offensive flexibility, and how it hits surprisingly hard. It can muscle past Hypno with Slam x2 + HB, go on a BlizzBolt offence, support with para/sleep, and more. While it can't do all of it, it's fine. I definitely misconstrued Clefable's niche compared to Hypno, its movepool is just better. Hypno is still the better mon for obvious reasons, but it's not directly outclassed.

So for now, until it sees tour-level success, it should stay D Rank. I see below B- as the "stuff that's good but not been used enough on the tournament level".

So here are some sets and teams I've been using!​

Psychic+HB

Clefable
Ability: none
- Thunder Wave
- Body Slam
- Psychic
- Hyper Beam
This is really nice in the lead slot since you get to smack Hypno and Tentacruel one-on-one. Against the latter, you have to bank on a Wrap miss, but it's very possible since Clefable takes Wrap like a champ. Psychic helps a lot since you can get spc drops for a better swing at the various specially bulky mons, eg. Vaporeon.

Team

Counter

Clefable
Ability: Cute Charm
- Thunder Wave
- Body Slam
- Psychic
- Counter
This is good in the back for fighting Kangaskhan and Persian. If you're using Kadabra a lot, this set helps more since people love to try and OHKO it with Hyper Beam. It's also helpful if you have an Explosion user like Haunter so you can gimmick something away. The lack of Hyper Beam becomes noticeable against Hypno though, but at the same time, some people are crazy enough to run only Seismic Toss and die.

Team

BlizzBolt unga bunga

Clefable
Ability: none
- Body Slam
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard
- Thunder Wave
BlizzBolt, need I say more? Good against the typical VapNite teams people like to spam as they're not too adapted for BlizzBolt coverage. You're not gonna be muscling past Hypno with this, moreso making it uncomfortable, but unresisted special coverage makes it very hard to switch into.

Team

TBolt+HB

Clefable
Ability: none
- Body Slam
- Hyper Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
The best of both worlds. Thunderbolt is better for hitting Gyarados and Vaporeon, both of which Clefable excels against, while still hitting Tentacruel. However, you're worse against everything else on the special end than if you're running Psychic since you won't get special drops. This is better for the short-term, I'd say, but it needs more experimentation. Here's a replay where I get absolutely ridiculous mileage from this set.

Team

Sing

Clefable
Ability: none
- Body Slam
- Thunderbolt
- Sing
- Thunder Wave
You can prolly run anything over Thunderbolt here, it's flexible. Double status makes Clefable far more supportive, but a lot less consistent, so I'm not sure how good this actually is. It takes some pressure off your Hypno though, allowing it to drop Hypnosis for something else. I'd say experiment with this one and see what drops.

Team

 

[EB0LA]

VR Update:

Articuno A- -> A

Vaporeon A- -> A

Venusaur C+ -> B New UU

Poliwrath B- -> C+ New NU

Raichu B- -> C+ New NU

Aerodactyl C -> C+

 

[phoopes]

Hide

My personal, up-to-date VR:

short explanations

S:
Tent and Hypno are near-mandatory on every team. Pretty clear #1 and #2

A+:
Again, nothing really new here. People go back and forth between Dug vs. Kadabra at #3 or #4. I'm personally a fan of Dug but could see it the other way. Considered placing Nite higher than #5 as I've had a lot of success with AgiliWrap recently but I build without it far more than I build without Dug or Kadabra

A:
I've become a believer in Khan > Persian. Both are still really good though. Articuno's stocks continue to rise for me, moving ahead of Gyarados (a 'mon that doesn't see as much play as it should for how high it is on everyone's VRs)

A-:
Vap stonks fell a bit for me. Still good especially on Eb0la's VapNite team but it doesn't seem to be "in" these days, at least not with me.

B+:
Venu continues to cement itself as an integral part of the UU metagame. Shoutout Volk as usual, etc. Dodrio is also still good even if it's the third-best Normal-type attacker.

B: Buzz and Haunter are the next two slots. Buzz kind of underwhelms me sometimes but it's still a good anti-lead. Haunter doesn't get enough play considering that it's B tier in my book. Tangela can put in the work when it needs to, and Aero is a for-sure UU 'mon now IMO. Shoutout to PvK, etc. Omastar I had in B- initially but after thinking about recent performances it deserves B, certainly better than Wrath.

B-: I use Wrath enough to still think it's UU. Barely. It's not as good as everything else but it's something. Certainly better than...

Chu tier: Raichu, AKA NUBL. Wasn't really sure what to name this tier because Chu is too good for NU but not good enough to be UU. A step down from Poli I think, mostly because Raichu is outclassed by Buzz whereas Poli actually does its own thing.

C+:
Pac has shown that Rat is viable so shoutout him, Hip has won pretty much everyone over on Clef so shoutout him, and Gong is good in certain scenarios. I'm not toooo experienced with any of these guys but they seem to just miss the UU cutoff for me.

C: The very edge of viability here IMO. Golem is still useful even if it's not great (Lusch at least beats me with it). Nair I feel is only worth using alongside Nite which really limits your teambuilding. I feel like it's annoying, not broken. Electrode isn't great but has some use.

D: The stuff that I don't really know toooo much about. I know some people are higher on Pinsir than I am but I just don't really see it. Veno is kind of bad. Moltres gets yeeted by too many things in this tier to be really viable. Golduck is just unfortunate because it'll never see play in UU but it's too broken for NU lol.

E (not pictured): This is for all the meme picks/unexplored stuff like Seaking, Kabutops, Sandslash, Charizard, Blastoise, Fearow... probably more stuff I'm not quite thinking of but yeah. There are maybe some undiscovered D-ranks as of right now but I can't see anything down this low working its way up to C.

 

[Volk]

Well, I guess it is VR season, so here y'all go. Phoopes didn't pressure me to make this. Without further ado:

The VR

I wanted to do a full length explanation for everything, but I don't see that happening. I might update this later to be more detailed, but I'm not sure.

Explanation

S
Pretty self-explanatory. Tentacruel and Hypno define the tier. They don't need to be on every team, but they will be on almost all of them and a team is probably not good if it can't handle them.

A+
The order here is pretty much arbitrary. They are all great. Kadabra takes it for me because I think it is the easiest to fit on the most teams and the hardest to play without.

A-
Still in self-explanatory territory. Articuno is a tad overrated and Vaporeon is a tad underrated.

B+
Dodrio is eleventh for me. Everything after that feels a bit more disputable to me. I think Venusaur fits here because it can pretty much always at least get a Sleep off even in its worst matchups. Sleep is pretty broken in this tier.

B
Electabuzz can be really dangerous in the right matchups and scenarios. It can play a wide variety of roles, from lead to sweeper. Haunter has always been awkward to me and I don't like it very much. Nonetheless, it undeniably has a lot of unique traits that give it a lot of utility that nothing else can provide.

B-
Tangela remains relevant in the age of Venusaur. I find it too passive to rank it highly, but it still finds a home thanks to its solid defensive ability and interesting move pool. Aerodactyl has become one of my favorites in the tier. It is literally the only Pokemon in the tier that can both check Dugtrio and revenge kill Tentacruel. Unfortunately, it has some pretty bad matchup issues that keep it this low. Aerodactyl is UU right now in my eyes though. Omastar is the last Pokemon that I am certain belongs in UU. It isn't incredible by any means, but it maintains a decisive defensive niche. So long as Wrap, Hyper Beam, and Articuno remain in this tier, there will be good reasons to use Omastar.

C+
Not sure which, if any, of these Pokemon belong in UU. I could see the argument for any of them. I don't have much to say about any of them in particular. All are pretty strong choices in the meta and can probably perform well even in serious settings. They are just a tad awkward to fit on teams; they don't really satisfy any of the major roles you need Pokemon on a UU team to on their own. They need to be used more. Their order is a bit shaky.

C-
This bunch is viable, but they tend to require more support and are more likely to be dead weight, given a bad scenario. Quite a few of them are surprisingly reliant on luck. Golem is a cut above the rest and Moltres is a cut below. Dragonair is still dumb.

Gimmicks / Viable By Technality
You can use any of these if you want to. Seaking is usable, but pretty much obsolete in light of Articuno. Kabutops has an interesting typing and move pool but it is pretty hard to fit on a team. Golduck has Amnesia and can potentially succeed if you get lucky with Paralysis and other status. Blastoise is worse Poliwrath/Vaporeon, but it isn't an active detriment to a team. Fearow is virtually indistinguishable from Dodrio, though it is slightly inferior. Using Fearow with Dodrio is pretty hilarious.

That's it for now. Cheers folks!

 

[dawnbuster]

If we are talking VRs, here is mine.

My VR when I first posted this

My VR now right after the Dragonite suspect

 

[Plague von Karma]

Volk asked me to post a VR since UUFPL is almost over. I largely believe the current VR is representative of the metagame, but here's my list. It's sort of ordered, while the current VR is not.

S Tier
Obviously. Tentacruel and Hypno define the way the game is played right now with their bulk and control tools, allowing them to survive for very long lengths of time while liberally abusing Rest to make use of the Wrap-laden metagame. You need these on every team, and that is why the status quo is so inarguable.

A+ Tier
These are all roughly equal in my eyes, they all do a lot. Not much to say that hasn't been said before: Dragonite is ridiculous, Kadabra is a nice flexible lead, BIG DUG is BIG DUG.

A Tier
I believe Vaporeon is the best out of the A-ranks for its splashability and the way it can warp offensive strategies around itself. There's a lot of times where you'll wonder what your last 6th is, smack Vaporeon on, and suddenly your team works. A team of this and the S and A+ ranks is straight up a viable team and one of the best ever. The rest is about what you would expect, but I greatly value Persian for its Speed right now, which puts it just below Articuno.

The rest is a bit different, so I'll give individual explanations.

B Tier
Haunter is great and I love it, people like to sleep on it when they don't understand how Wrap works. One of the fastest sleepers, a valuable stop to Persian, and a makeshift Electric in a tier where the Waters quite literally overwhelm them. It also doesn't lose value when paralyzed thanks to Explosion, which helps maintain tempo. Rest Haunter is also a hidden gem, try it out...

Volk has convinced me that Venusaur is here to stay and not just a passive trend, enabling offence exceptionally well with its fast, reliable sleep. Plus, bonking Vaporeon autopilots on the head is always nice. It's definitely not fond of all the Blizzards going around, as well as Hypno's continued existence, but this does little to dissuade its use. Use alongside offensive juggernauts like Kangaskhan and Articuno for best results.

Shellnuts has been leading the charge on the Tangela hype, showing how it can single-handedly save a team from Kangaskhan bowling it over. Bulk, Bind, and Double Powder are all nice qualities, but I have also been surprised by the potency of the Growth set. Definitely a Pokemon that you should try out. It's not for the greenhorn, however, as it's basically pure utility with iffy damage output without Swords Dance or Growth. Be aware of this when using it, it's by far its biggest flaw. Venusaur will likely do you better with offence.

Not feeling this mon as much as I used to, it's just really frail. However, when paired alongside Aerodactyl or Tangela, it feels quite nice. It's just difficult to use. Late-game Electabuzz is very scary, though, and it's definitely one of the most convincing ways to force out Tentacruel. Since everyone spams Lead Tentacruel right now, chuck it in your lead slot to lure in Dugtrio or other anti-Buzz mons. I'd recommend carrying Body Slam for the purpose of trying to paralyze a Dugtrio switching in as well, not many people seem to be doing that.

B- Tier
Very happy to see anti-Wrap cores flourish with Aerodactyl's newfound presence in the metagame. A very handy fast utility Pokemon that can spread burns uncontested, which helps in the anti-Tentacruel effort among other things. Very nice Dugtrio check as well. Basically everyone says to rise this thing, hoping to see it when we start getting proper, professional VRs.

I don't see this thing like, ever. I think it may be being slept on, but it seems to have trouble competing with Persian and Kangaskhan. It's definitely the scariest when it hits the field for me though since it literally hits harder than Tauros. If only it didn't only Speed tie Tentacruel...

I can see this dropping eventually, but it's good enough for me. Valuable Ice + Normal + Wrap resist that hits like a dump truck when it isn't being annoyed by Tentacruel and Vaporeon. It's basically Vaporeon but for more specialized teams. Use alongside Haunter for a nice anti-Wrap core, but Aerodactyl is prolly better in this role right now.

C Tier
I was considering placing this in B- Tier but then we quite literally have 3 Vaporeons in the tier. This is your Articuno annoyer that fixes your "oops forgot cuno" moments. Quad Ice resist, nuclear Blizzard, good mon.

Still no evidence of this thing being UU, with no big usage in UUFPL from what I remember, there's just better Waters. I always hear the "can" but never the "will". Still, it's the physically bulkiest Water with access to Amnesia and Hypnosis, which is a good combination of traits to have. I suppose you can Submission Persian too.

Just a worse Electabuzz unless you need an Agility sweeper that can bonk Dugtrio. I can see this falling more, but individually it's solid. I just wish 2-3 Wraps from Tentacruel didn't put it into Dugtrio range, jesus christ.

Rat Gang. I love seeing this thing Super Fang the world to open the opposing team to abuse from its teammates. I think people underestimate just how much 50% is in this format; that puts a LOT in Dugtrio range. The only issue is that other Normal-types are in the tier, like, what? lol

D Tier
Mostly unordered.

I swear the only thing keeping this thing on the VR is its OU history, and I can't believe I'm still putting it here. Golem is ass, relying on a paralysis-centric team to work. I have yet to SEE a team that can actually do this without being better off with Dugtrio. These mythical Double-Ground teams sound like Tent+Cuno bait that a Dewgong can't fix. I'm sorry but this thing just feels like a gigantic momentum sink with nothing to offer in such a hostile metagame. The theory is there, but can someone take this to UUFPL playoffs and make it work?

Very cool Pokemon, but not a great one. It's a Dugtrio check that sates my SD+HB desire, and that's all I really have to say about it. I think it's quite good, being able to OHKO Tentacruel and Hypno after basically any amount of prior damage is wonderful. The main issue is that it's basically reserved for the late game and lacks revenge killing qualities. Poor Special and movepool doesn't help either, and then there's the Haunter problem that your Persian is likely already complaining about.

Solid, could go higher. I believe I already covered this prior in the thread.

Uncontested paralysis in a metagame centred heavily around Speed, what else can Is say? Amazing Dugtrio lure too, try giving it Take Down and/or Explosion and watching the fireworks.

Eh...not completely sold. AgiliWrap is funny, but even with a Dragonite ban, I don't see this going up. I really don't like the damage per Wrap decrease, risk-reward feels iffy.

Venusaur's uptick in usage has hurt this thing a lot, but it has its place for its superior Speed. Not much to say.

Idk it feels alright. It can avoid some serious OHKOs and hit decently hard in return with its coverage, and is immune to both Toxic and Thunder Wave, giving it many points of entry. There's also Counter and other cool stuff. This may be the Golem replacement these mythical paraspam teams want.

Haha SD+HB go brr. I know Sevi 7 had more to say about this but I'm running out of time and motivation to write more.

 

[pac]

Old VR Post, missing the VR images

Original VR from May 18th, 2021

Since everyone else is posting their Viability Rankings, I suppose i'll post mine. I don't have the time to double-check any grammatical errors in the explanations at the moment, so bear with me there.

It's nothing too special, only really a few things that may be of note compared to other people, and it's mostly in the lower tiers of viability.

Explanations:

S Tier: Basically every competitive UU VR has the exact same S rank. These 2 mons are on nearly every team, and warp the tier to be what it is. Shoutouts to Lusch though, he's the only person i've seen succeed with a team that doesn't feature both of these, being a Normal spam HO team.

A+ Tier: All 3 of these are really close. They are ordered to an extent, but realistically any order of these is fine. Everyone knows what they do, so I won't say much on them. I will note that Dugtrio has been struggling slightly as of late, as less teams are running it, and some pokemon like Tangela are seeing an uptick in usage. Its still incredible however, as it just ends games at times.

A Tier: Once again, these five are all really close. Persian has a slight edge in my opinion, for its monstrous offensive presence due to its speed tier and the sheer might of its Slash. Being faster than Tentacruel and Kadabra is an extremely valuable trait. Gyarados and Kangaskhan both patch teams up versus Dugtrio, and they are both offensive presences in their own right. Articuno just has really fucking strong Blizzards, but it can have issues against pokemon like Vaporeon, Omastar, and Dewgong. Vaporeon is a really nice, splashable, defensive piece on teams. However, its passivity and low speed cause it to struggle in places.

B+ Tier: Dodrio is a strong Physical attacker like Persian and Kangaskhan, with the addition of its Flying-typing and coverages giving it advantages in certain places. However, it can be hard to justify on teams due to the presence of the other two. Speed tying with Tentacruel gives it a disadvantage when comparing it to Persian or Kangaskhan, and its typing causes it to struggle defensively compared to Kangaskhan. Shoutouts to Volk for proving Venusaur is a real threat in the meta. Being an alternate sleeper to Hypno is extremely important in today's meta, as you really want to be able to run Seismic Toss on Hypno to counter the opposing Hypno. Tangela also does this, and while it is slower with less offensive power, it is an extremely convincing defensive pokemon, and has the advantage of being a bit more varied in moveset compared to Venusaur. Nowadays I see a very large portion of teams have one of these two.

B Tier: This is the last tier of Pokemon I would consider "UU" at the moment. Electabuzz is the best Electric, but its frailty in such an offensively potent meta can cause issues. Haunter is an alternate sleeper, which is really important, and its Ghost typing is incredibly useful. Its an anti-Wrap mon, an anti-Persian mon, its support to your Hypno makes it an anti-Hypno mon, it does alot of stuff. Offensively however, it's just kind of mediocre. It relies alot on using Explosion, which causes predictability issues. Aerodactyl is the only Pokemon not currently ranked UU to be up here, and i'd be hard-pressed to find someone who doesn't agree it has established itself to be up here. It's role compression is so incredibly useful. It's a normal/wrap resist, it's the fastest relevant pokemon in the tier, it's a Dugtrio check, it revenge kills effectively, it just does it all. However, it can struggle in certain matchups such as Omastar or Articuno. Omastar is a great defensive check similar to Tangela, and it is one of the most convincing Articuno checks, but it has less utility which puts it down here. Its also a tad passive, which is a harmful trait in a meta with so much raw offense. I do really enjoy Omastar and Tangela as a defensive core, as they compliment each other quite nicely.

C+ Tier and below: From here on out, these are the special snowflakes. Pokemon in C+ are still competitively viable at a high level, but after that it starts dipping. Pinsir and Dragonair are really the absolute last pokemon I would bring to a serious game, and you are building AROUND them as opposed to WITH them. Venomoth, Electrode, and Golem are just barely usable enough to make it in. Golem is mainly here because of other people, but I REALLY dislike it.

June 8th, 2021 Edit:
So, Eb0la has asked the various RBY UU players to post their final Viability Rankings before the Dragonite suspect results are decided. Instead of clogging the VR thread with a whole new post, i'm just updating this one with my new takes that will be shown below.

6/8/2021 VR

D rank is unordered, as there's just not enough info on them for it to be genuine.

Explanations

I'll just explain the various things i've changed, anything that's the same as last time i'm not going over again.

Reordering of A: No big meta changes caused these, they're all very close anyways, but just a general change of opinion. Persian is still the best imo, its extremely threatening throughout the game and has the very positive aspect of adding a Pokemon thats faster than Tentacruel to your team. Articuno has gone up for me, as its likely the single deadliest Pokemon to see in the endgame in many scenarios, and it is very effective at bullying teams without Vaporeon/Omastar/Dewgong. Kangaskhan and Gyarados are close, but I appreciate Gyarados' increased role compression more.

Vaporeon to B+: With an increase in offensive Pokemon such as Persian, Aerodactyl, and Venusaur, the meta is way more hostile to a purely defensive and passive threat such as Vaporeon. There's also the fact that Dewgong and Omastar have increased in usage to give it larger competition, as all three comprise very similar roles as slightly differing Articuno checks. Its still extremely good due to its phenominal role compression capabilities, but its going to struggle more as the pace of the meta turns up a notch in pace.

Dodrio to the bottom of B+: Dodrio is still just as good as I thought it was, but Venusaur and Tangela have just risen to be larger threats due to their increased place in the meta and their larger amount of reason to add to a team. Dodrio competes with Persian, Kangaskhan, and the rare Raticate as Normal-type attackers, while Venusaur and Tangela do not really compete with anyone for their respective roles. There's also the fact that, of the Normal-type attackers, it has some of the most polarizing matchups due to it struggling versus Aerodactyl and Omastar, although its better matchups versus the Grass-types and Haunter give it an edge that still makes it worth using.

Reordering of B: This rank has always been a hot mess for me to rank, I really just can't decide on these guys. Haunter and Aerodactyl have phenominal and unique defensive capabilities, so i'm handing them the slight edge over Electabuzz. While Electabuzz is still very nice offensively due to its unique typing giving it very good STAB for the tier, and its speed tier is great, its frailness and lack of defensive utility mark it seperately from the previous two which have both. Omastar and Dewgong are very close, and my order of them will likely flip-flop, so i'm not going to say one is definitively better. Omastar is better versus the Normal-type attackers like Persian and Dodrio, while Dewgong is the single best check to Articuno and is better versus Dugtrio.

Reordering of C+: This rank just got some slight reordering. I was a bit high on Raticate previously, as its frailty and lower speed cause it to be more inconsistent than the other Normal-type Physical attackers. However, its still the single best punish to a sleeping Pokemon such as Hypno in the game, and its coverage is pretty sweet compared to the likes of Dodrio and Persian. Poliwrath takes the #1 slot for me, its surprisingly bulky and has a niche as a solid Dugtrio check, as well as being unpredictable due to its large array of viable options such as Hypnosis and Amnesia. However, its large variety of poor matchups, as well as low speed in a fast meta, cause it to just miss B for me personally. Raichu is still Raichu, its ok but it competes with Electabuzz and doesn't do enough differently at the moment to justify it most of the time. Agility is still nice though, and if Golem continues to increase in usage than Surf is a nice differentiator. Clefable is just solid, acting as a secondary Hypno and Kadabra check (#2 and #3 best mons of the tier) while also having decent matchups against most Pokemon, and being extremely unpredictable all-around. I have been bullied by Sing, Counter, Hyper Beam, and many more sets from this that allows it to be a threat and fit on a large variety of teams. Of all of these Pokemon, Poliwrath and Clefable have the highest chances of becoming UU in my opinion.

Dragonair to D, Golem to C: My opinion of Golem has been lifted favorably by the likes of Eb0la, while Dragonair has fallen due to my changed perspectives on AgiliWrap. Golem is okay. Its strong, has an actually threatening Explosion, and its typing is becoming more prevelant due to the likes of Aerodactyl. However, there's also an increase in Grass-types, and its slow speed and weaknesses to extremely notable threats like Tentacruel will always hold it back in my opinion. Dragonair is fine, its just inconsistent, untested, and hard to justify due to Dragonite's existence (even if it has some notable benefits due to its lack of a Flying-typing). If Dragonite were to leave the tier, I could see it possibly rising back up to C due to the increased amount of players unprepared for AgiliWrap.

Butterfree: The ordering of Pokemon this low is irrelevant, but the inclusion of Butterfree is somewhat notable. Its basically doing the same thing as Venomoth, trading away a better Dugtrio matchup for a better matchup versus the Psychic-types instead. This allows it to act more effectively as a lead, giving it a niche over Venomoth in that regard. However, its slower speed causes it to miss out on key speed benchmarks such as Venusaur and Articuno when compared to Venomoth, so its slightly below Venomoth imo.

Any Pokemon that are not ranked are either unviable, untested, or I personally just don't have very much experience with them. Some notable ones that could be ranked may include Nidoking/Nidoqueen, Moltres, and Kabutops.

This VR post is outdated

 

[Sevi 7]

I didn’t play in UUFPL, but I think I’m being asked to post my VR anyways. My opinions are largely the same as before. So, I think just this picture will suffice. And I don’t want to write out descriptions on my phone. There shouldn’t be anything surprising (you all know I consider Poliwrath a proper UU mon), but if you have any questions let me know.

 

[Lusch]

UUFPL has ended for me. So here is my take of the viability in this tier, where I try to take current trends into account.

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Explanations where I think they're needed.

Articuno is at #6 because it is an incredible Agility sweeper, way deadlier with Agility than Dragonite btw. Stuff that counters it can even get frozen (looking at Vaporeon) and everything else just does not take the hits well. Opportunities to set up are there on Normals and grasses that are getting more common (to the point that staying with your Normal just to get the toxic in might even be worth it). A little chip on Tentacruel is all it needs to put it an a weird position.

Persian is at #7 over Kangaskhan at #8. That is crazy but true at the moment. As long as people do not use Haunter or Golem [Persian needs Toxic over Bubblebeam in this environment] -which they don't atm- Persian just clicks Slash without even blinking an eye. Outspeeding Tentacruel and Kadabra is such a great feat for a Normal-type-attacker, it's amazing. The bulk is also not as crappy as one intuitively thinks, often living just two special attacks (from Hypno for example).

Vaporeon at #10 below Gyarados at #9. I'm really low on Vaporeon currently. Being the blizzard switch in is cool and all, but you are not doing much in return and also get frozen eventually by that monster Articuno. Teams with Vaporeon tend to turn out really passive and it isn't a great switch in to physical attackers either. Vaporeon's special bulk is still amazing, one of the only things to shrug of Psychics once or twice without being Psychic-type itself. It's also great at taking non-STAB Tbolts. I did not go lower, but from my gut feeling, I totally could have. At least Omastar gives you a pivot for Normal types that Slammed/Slashed the switch in and are now forced to EQ/Tbolt...

For the third group in general, I have the bulky waters (Vaporeon, Omastar, Dewgong) marking the group, with the two best sleepres other than Hypno in the upper half with Dodrio (becaus nodoby uses Rock types or Haunter) and Tangela and Poliwrath in the bottom half. Tang is great vs Dugtrio, but just use Gyarados, it actually does damage. Polwrath is bulky as hell and has some nice tools, but it's hard to fit on teams. Outspeeds Hypno and can try its luck with Hypnosis, which can be really annoying. Electabuzz is mixed in there as well, kinda underwhelming with People loving Tangela atm...

Fourth group we got all the other stuff than can be used. Aero at the top because people love it. It is a nice Duggy answer sometimes, but it only works for now because people don't use rock types and Haunter much. If you face a Haunter, you basically lost. Golem is kinda awkward, but it is usable, a nice breath of fresh air strength-wise when one is used so much to Dugtrio. As long as nobody uses Golem however, Raichu has a hard time, especially with Tangela running around. Agility can surprise people at the right moment though. Electrode on the other hand loves no Golem around and outspeeds Dugtrio, which can get messy for the Dug user if they get chipped on switch ins by Take Down or even get crit. Honable mention for Butterfree>Venomoth in this tier, since it can actually sleep Kadabra (in the lead position for example) because it takes a crit-Psychic.

 

[phoopes]

UUFPL is over and the Dragonite suspect tours are over. Voting to ban/not ban Dragonite opens tomorrow I'm pretty sure so I'm making a final VR in case Dragonite gets the banhammer.

Hide

explanations

S: Tentacruel and Hypno are the clear #1 and #2. You can run teams without them but like... it's really hard to justify. Moving on!

A+: These three are pretty much all jumbled in everyone's rankings, but I have Kadabra #3, Dragonite #4, and Dugtrio #5. I'm a lot less high on Dugtrio than I used to be. Maybe it's because I've just gotten better at the tier/teambuilding but I don't fear it as much anymore. Dragonite, with or without AgiliWrap, is always threatening. But Kadabra takes the #3 spot because I've started to realize the value of a healthy Kadabra more recently. That Speed is important especially on the teams I run where it's the only 'mon faster than Tentacruel.

A: Articuno stocks are high. The thing is a menace even if it doesn't set up Agility. It's won me a lot of games recently so I moved it up to #6. The next three were really hard to place in an exact order for me but ultimately I went for Persian > Kangaskhan > Gyarados. I really feel like you could make the argument for any order here but I ended up going with Persian first because of its speed and Slash being so powerful. I went Kangaskhan next because of STAB Body Slam and Hyper Beam, and then finally the criminally underused Gyarados. Seriously, I know I have this thing at #9 but it's hard to see why people don't use this more, especially with its UUFPL winrate.

A-: Vaporeon stocks are low. It's still good, don't get me wrong, but it's very passive most of the time and I feel like I end up sacking it to sleep a lot. But that's just me *shrug*

B+: I still have Dodrio and Venusaur here. Dodrio is the third-best Normal-type attacker in the tier so it doesn't get used by me too much outside of Normal Spam, but I've been looking into building with it as the main Agility sweeper on a team and I'm liking it in theory. Still good enough to warrant this spot as-is though. Using Venusaur as your sleeper is so good, takes the pressure off Hypno to hit a Hypnosis. It's a good status spreader between Sleep Powder, Body Slam, and Toxic for Dragonite, and Razor Leaf also hits surprisingly hard.

B: I don't quite have Tangela on the level of Venusaur yet but it's close. Double Powders is really cool, but after that it usually just kind of sits there lol. Still a fun 'mon to screw over Dugtrio with. Electabuzz is a bit underwhelming to me recently, it's up this high because it can work as a lead or come out from the back but I've definitely lost favor with it since my last tier list. Aerodactyl is a solid UU 'mon. I've been playing with it a lot recently and it just fits really well on teams due to its speed, EQ immunity, and Normal-type resistance. Could have put it above Electabuzz but I'm not ready for that take yet.

B-: Omastar is still good as an anti-Wrap and anti-Articuno 'mon, but man this thing is like Vaporeon but even worse with how passive it is. I find my Omastars just absorbing hits and not doing much back and dying early, but that's just me. Haunter is probably the 'mon whose stock has dropped the most for me. Again, good as an anti-Wrap 'mon but relying on Hypnosis to get sleep off is eh and it's hard to pick your spot to use Explosion a lot of the time. It's still hanging on to its UU distinction for me, but like I said stock has dropped in Haunter.

C+: I did it guys, I finally dropped Poliwrath to C+. I still like Poli but it was time to face the music, it rarely sees tournament play and when it does it doesn't really perform that well. Raichu is the same but sees even less tournament play, if any at all. Clefable is interesting though, I've become pretty high on Clef recently, thanks to the team EB0LA built with it and Golem, and I can see it maybe becoming UU someday. Maybe that's a hot take but using Clef as another paralysis spreader that can do serious damage with Hyper Beam has really been working for me.

C: Yes, I have Golem and Dragonair on the same level as Dewgong and Raticate, shoot me lol. For me though, I think it makes sense. Dewgong and Raticate are typically seen as better than Golem and Dragonair (at least that's the impression that I get) but in reality... they're all C-rank to me. They all can be viable in the right circumstances but take a lot to actually work. Dewgong is fat and does a good chunk of damage in return, but most of the time I'd rather use Vaporeon, which is why it's so low here. Raticate can usually get off a free Super Fang with good Rest prediction, but after that it normally can't do much because of its sub-100 speed and frailty. To a paralyzed team, Golem can be dangerous, but it involves a lot of support like I said. And Dragonair can be funny but more often than not it's very underwhelming.

D: I don't have a lot to say about D-tier. These can all work every once in a blue moon but I would never bring any of these to a serious tournament game. Okay, maaaaybe if it was a tournament game where my team had already clinched playoffs or something like that, idk. The point is, this is about the end of serious viability. As for how I ordered them... I kind of just thought of how they've performed against me/how I've performed with them lately and just threw it together based off that. Very unscientific, I know.

E: These are all Pokemon that I would never bring to a tournament game, and would rarely bring to a friendly as well. They're either gimmicky, need more testing, or both. Not to say they can't work under the right circumstances, but it's so rare that bringing one or more of these Pokemon usually isn't good.

Let me know what you think!

 

[EB0LA]

Here are my latest rankings, I've loosened up a bit on the bottleneck of UU/NU (B-/C+) line to fit some extra waters, and Clefable, who acting as the physical version of Hypno works quiet nicely for some role compression. Haunter at 12 really does well/solid vs. most notable things below it, as well as things like wrap above too. Ding Dang Dewgong, great role compression or extra cushion vs. heavy users of Articuno. Poliwrath is literally the Slowbro of the tier. Rest all p standard.

6/7 VR

S 1. Tentacruel, 2. Hypno
A+ 3. Dragonite, 4. Dugtrio, 5. Kadabra
A 6. Articuno, 7. Persian, 8. Kangaskhan, 9. Gyarados
A- 10. Vaporeon
B+ 11. Dodrio, 12. Haunter
B 13. Venusaur, 14. Omastar, 15. Electabuzz
B- 16. Tangela, 17. Aerodactyl, 18. Dewgong 19. Poliwrath, 20. Clefable
C+ 21. Golem, 22. Raichu
C 23. Raticate
D 24. Electrode 25. Venomoth, 26. Pinsir, 27. Moltres 28. Dragonair

6/23 update

S 1. Tentacruel, 2. Hypno
A+ 3. Dragonite, 4. Dugtrio, 5. Kadabra
A 6. Articuno, 7. Persian, 8. Kangaskhan, 9. Gyarados
A- 10. Vaporeon
B+ 11. Dodrio, 12. Haunter
B 13. Venusaur, 14. Omastar, 15. Electabuzz
B- 16. Tangela, 17. Aerodactyl, 18. Dewgong
C+ 19. Poliwrath, 20. Raichu, 21. Clefable
C 22. Golem
Memes:
D 23. Raticate, 24. Pinsir, 25. Electrode, 26. Venomoth, 27. Moltres, 28. Dragonair 29. Kabutops
D- 30. Blastoise, 31. Seaking, 32. Charizard, 33. Fearow
F Hitmonchan

Randomly Ordered All The FE Waters In The Tier

Tentacruel> Gyarados> Vaporeon,Omastar> Gong,Poli> Kabutops> Seaking,Blastoise> Golduck> Kingler> Seadra

 

[AM]

Ranking site is so laggy my goodness.

My Personal Rankings

Explanation

My rankings may look out of the norm compared to others because of my perspective on things, how I like to play (I play relatively aggressive probably stemming from my current gen experience), and some of the stuff missing in other peoples rankings is stuff I haven't used or seen regularly so I didn't include them. I also gutted rank below B cause I think anything below B rankings in any VR thread is niche stuff and not really needed or worth arguing over.

S: Is kind of obvious. Tenta best mon for a number of reasons, Hypno best status sponge I think Seismic Toss kind of blows on Hypno watching and playing games and I think the best set will be always be Psychic, Twave, Hypnosis, Rest. I feel like lot of games can come down long term to who loses Hypno first which I rate it as a high as shown here in comparison to A+ counterparts who usually provide the offensive backbone.

A+: My stance on this rank is that as long as you have one of these still alive on your team, you will always have an out, as they force progress better than the stuff below it to me. Trio is the stronger of the pack to me personally borderline S but it's kind of depending on what you face and what your positioning looks like. Being able to threaten many of the offensive options, Tenta, critting its way through defensive bacbones, Toxicing the Tangela etc. Persian, Kadabra are strong cleaners, Articuno strong sweeper usually you can freeze someones out to it because Blizzard has little opportunity cost to spam by the time you're in a position to sweep.

A: is just the general good stuff for different reasons. I dont rate Dnite as high as the other rankings here because I think its Agiliwrap that makes it feel very strong (sometimes it is) and even if it's "uncompetitive" it's rather inconsistent. I rate Tang more highly than others because it's the best dugtrio check and has a couple of good variations such as dual status sets. I think Growth is okay too but tbh it takes a bit to get rolling and it has more defensive merits than offensive ones. Kanga strong wall-breaker, hard to really account for in builder, good at just being annoying passing paras around. I didn't rate Gyara that highly before until more use of it and sometimes it isnt great but being a Dugtrio switch in and getting a free hit off once its in from this interaction barring catching a Toxic has more value than I think people like to give credit for. You'll see a lot of my rankings are based on how they handle the stronger stuff especially with Dugtrio.

A-: Couple good stuff, just below A and in some games they can feel stronger but not as consistent to me. I'm not a huge fan of Aero either but it's a good cleaner if you can keep it hidden in the back well enough by having an additional Dugtrio counterplay and chipping everything down. I justify Haunter as being relatively okay for the rank even as a poison type being weak to Dug and Kadabra because of sleep and boom. Sleep will always be strong and the option to boom on something to usually remove something entirely is a good opening for lot of things that occupy A+ for example. Buzz is more annoying than good being able to spread paras or forcing Dugtrio to try and soak an electric hit to only eat a Psychic, plus threatening Tenta. It only works on like a couple of builds to me but regardless and similar to the Haunter point, opening up a path for the better stuff is how games normally feel like they're won. Dodrio good set up mon, strong on those normal spam archetypes weak as hell to Blizzard though so it needs more conditions like Aero to get going.

B+: Most of these are on equal footing to me from what I've used and seen and honestly we get to the stuff that I think isn't that great as its made out to be but once in awhile can pull its own weight. Oma is a good sponge for Wrap but being weak to Dugtrio is borderline unviable to me unless you have specific conditions that can offset that, such as most of the stuff weak to Dugtrio in my higher ranks. I know the community is big or at least somewhat to Venusaur but a neutrality to Dugtrio, thus making crits harder to deal with than Tang, and being weak to Psychic and Blizzard all in one makes it worse than Tangela to me. Razor Leaf / Toxic is strong in certain settings and positions against slower things like Vaporeon but otherwise most times I'll just use Tangela to be safer against Dugtrio. Vaporeon is very bulky but like most things with reduced viability it's Wrap prone to Tenta and when victim of the restloop engagement it invites dangerous threats to do what it wants. Decent at soaking hits from lot of strong mons outside of those flaws. Zard threatens a lot of the grass foundations used to deal with some of the attackers in this tier and sits at a decent speed tier to do so. 3 attacks (Fire Blast, Slam, EQ) SD is the way to go and benefits from forcing rest loops, coming in on very obvious grass mon trying to soak a hit, and for the most part outside of very bulky waters the switch ins to it dont want to be risking para or in the case of something like Aero, a burn. I think this mon is better than Oma/Venu personally and a little less than Vaporeon because it doesnt have great defensive utility, more so offensive, opening up paths for better mons.

B: I only ranked Clef here from seeing Ebola use it in the live tours. Never used it personally does not seem terrible though. Golem kind of sucks but its strong against restloop engagements when done correctly and a boomer which would be better in the format if there were more than just 3 that weren't subpar. Dewgong, Nair, Raticate have their own traits that makes them okay picks as more niche options and they have about equal viability across the board.

Other stuff not listed here I haven't used or seen regularly and probably not worth using, at least I wouldnt use it.

 

[phoopes]

Ranking site is so laggy my goodness.

My Personal Rankings

View attachment 347744

Explanation

My rankings may look out of the norm compared to others because of my perspective on things, how I like to play (I play relatively aggressive probably stemming from my current gen experience), and some of the stuff missing in other peoples rankings is stuff I haven't used or seen regularly so I didn't include them. I also gutted rank below B cause I think anything below B rankings in any VR thread is niche stuff and not really needed or worth arguing over.

S: Is kind of obvious. Tenta best mon for a number of reasons, Hypno best status sponge I think Seismic Toss kind of blows on Hypno watching and playing games and I think the best set will be always be Psychic, Twave, Hypnosis, Rest. I feel like lot of games can come down long term to who loses Hypno first which I rate it as a high as shown here in comparison to A+ counterparts who usually provide the offensive backbone.

A+: My stance on this rank is that as long as you have one of these still alive on your team, you will always have an out, as they force progress better than the stuff below it to me. Trio is the stronger of the pack to me personally borderline S but it's kind of depending on what you face and what your positioning looks like. Being able to threaten many of the offensive options, Tenta, critting its way through defensive bacbones, Toxicing the Tangela etc. Persian, Kadabra are strong cleaners, Articuno strong sweeper usually you can freeze someones out to it because Blizzard has little opportunity cost to spam by the time you're in a position to sweep.

A: is just the general good stuff for different reasons. I dont rate Dnite as high as the other rankings here because I think its Agiliwrap that makes it feel very strong (sometimes it is) and even if it's "uncompetitive" it's rather inconsistent. I rate Tang more highly than others because it's the best dugtrio check and has a couple of good variations such as dual status sets. I think Growth is okay too but tbh it takes a bit to get rolling and it has more defensive merits than offensive ones. Kanga strong wall-breaker, hard to really account for in builder, good at just being annoying passing paras around. I didn't rate Gyara that highly before until more use of it and sometimes it isnt great but being a Dugtrio switch in and getting a free hit off once its in from this interaction barring catching a Toxic has more value than I think people like to give credit for. You'll see a lot of my rankings are based on how they handle the stronger stuff especially with Dugtrio.

A-: Couple good stuff, just below A and in some games they can feel stronger but not as consistent to me. I'm not a huge fan of Aero either but it's a good cleaner if you can keep it hidden in the back well enough by having an additional Dugtrio counterplay and chipping everything down. I justify Haunter as being relatively okay for the rank even as a poison type being weak to Dug and Kadabra because of sleep and boom. Sleep will always be strong and the option to boom on something to usually remove something entirely is a good opening for lot of things that occupy A+ for example. Buzz is more annoying than good being able to spread paras or forcing Dugtrio to try and soak an electric hit to only eat a Psychic, plus threatening Tenta. It only works on like a couple of builds to me but regardless and similar to the Haunter point, opening up a path for the better stuff is how games normally feel like they're won. Dodrio good set up mon, strong on those normal spam archetypes weak as hell to Blizzard though so it needs more conditions like Aero to get going.

B+: Most of these are on equal footing to me from what I've used and seen and honestly we get to the stuff that I think isn't that great as its made out to be but once in awhile can pull its own weight. Oma is a good sponge for Wrap but being weak to Dugtrio is borderline unviable to me unless you have specific conditions that can offset that, such as most of the stuff weak to Dugtrio in my higher ranks. I know the community is big or at least somewhat to Venusaur but a neutrality to Dugtrio, thus making crits harder to deal with than Tang, and being weak to Psychic and Blizzard all in one makes it worse than Tangela to me. Razor Leaf / Toxic is strong in certain settings and positions against slower things like Vaporeon but otherwise most times I'll just use Tangela to be safer against Dugtrio. Vaporeon is very bulky but like most things with reduced viability it's Wrap prone to Tenta and when victim of the restloop engagement it invites dangerous threats to do what it wants. Decent at soaking hits from lot of strong mons outside of those flaws. Zard threatens a lot of the grass foundations used to deal with some of the attackers in this tier and sits at a decent speed tier to do so. 3 attacks (Fire Blast, Slam, EQ) SD is the way to go and benefits from forcing rest loops, coming in on very obvious grass mon trying to soak a hit, and for the most part outside of very bulky waters the switch ins to it dont want to be risking para or in the case of something like Aero, a burn. I think this mon is better than Oma/Venu personally and a little less than Vaporeon because it doesnt have great defensive utility, more so offensive, opening up paths for better mons.

B: I only ranked Clef here from seeing Ebola use it in the live tours. Never used it personally does not seem terrible though. Golem kind of sucks but its strong against restloop engagements when done correctly and a boomer which would be better in the format if there were more than just 3 that weren't subpar. Dewgong, Nair, Raticate have their own traits that makes them okay picks as more niche options and they have about equal viability across the board.

Other stuff not listed here I haven't used or seen regularly and probably not worth using, at least I wouldnt use it.

do you have any Zard replays? I’d love to see it in action

 

[AM]

do you have any Zard replays? I’d love to see it in action

Normally don't save them but I'll let you know down the road if I do. I used it in a room tour last week and doubled on a Venu trying to soak a Dugtrio hit (knew Tang/Venu was coming on Dugtrio even without being revealed), clicked Fire Blast and burned the Aerodactyl that came in to give you an idea of what it does. The team I used for example.



You'll always want sturdier Dugtrio switch ins when used though. Articuno weak but unless you have Dewgong what isn't lol.

 

[Shellnuts]

Since I was asked on discord to give my VR, here is one I threw together quickly (will annotate later)