Pokemon that disappointed you in-game despite looking good initially?

[QuentinQuonce]

Idk if Pokemon Go counts as "in-game", but holy crap did Sirfetch'd disappoint. I got a lucky one with the maximum possible Attack and passable HP/Defence, and it's still awful. KOs nothing, dies to literally everything. Useless in raids as even neutral moves from things like Cobalion and Articuno wipe it out in one hit. Has an utterly mediocre movepool, too.

Considering it maxed out at just under 3000 CP (prior to the level increase) I expected so much better, especially from a fan-favourite Pokemon everyone's wanted for years.

 

[Sonikku A]

Source for this? It seems rather odd to have in-game trainers completely break the stat system that literally every other opponent in the game uses correctly.

TCRF server. Remember, Gen 4 was partially leaked, so comparisons for final helped explain things
Falkner is just a weird unique case

 

[Theia]

A Pokémon that disappointed me was Dubwool. I'll preface this by saying that I am not good at Pokémon and my in-game team for SwSh consisted of Scorbunny, Rookidee, Chewtle, Wooloo, Nickit, and a Dreepy I got off of Surprise Trade, so maybe I was doing something wrong.

Wooloo is adorable and I was super looking forward to using it on my team. However, the best move Dubwool learns by level up is Take Down at level 27 until it gets Double-Edge at level 50. You could do raid battles to get Body Slam for it, which is okay I guess. In fact, the only non-Normal-type attack it gets by level up is Double Kick and Reversal if you count that, which I don't. It can get Swords Dance, Zen Headbutt, and Wild Charge via TR if you want to grind raid battles in an attempt to make it useable for in game but...why?

This Pokémon spent more time dead than it did alive, and more often than not I just used it as a sacrifice to heal my other team members. It has the same BST as Pokémon like Bisharp, Reuniclus, and Barraskewda, so the fact that it's so bad just makes me sad.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Speaking of, in HGSS;
-Falkner somehow has -10 (yes negative) IVs for Pidgeotto. Seems the devs wanted it to be weaker for early game
-Karen on the other hand far beyond exceeds 32 IVs for Houndoom, making it Hella bulkier than expected

Hmmm I don’t think this is right. According to this speedrunning resource (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Bq9M0JGz2BZWGchH0hRh2FKH2KaislYWT6kvBGGLYQs/htmlview) both of Falkner’s mons have IVs of 6 and all of Karen’s have IVs of 30. Falkner’s a pretty crucial early battle with tight margins in terms of damage dealt and received, so I doubt they’ve been getting their calculations wrong for so many years.

Also in Falkner’s case it would be a pretty unnecessary exception since they could easily have just lowered Pidgeotto’s level by one to have almost the exact same effect on stats and damage calculation.

 

[cookie]

Still a nope. Mareep struggles against most of the Gym Leaders and only does passably with the Elite 4.

Falkner - its best matchup, but it's all downhill from here

you can't even get mareep before gym 1

 

[shinquickman]

Boy that post from greentyphlosion on Mareep is quite a ride. You'd have intentionally try to fail to make Mareep play badly. They must be mistaking it with HGSS Mareep, which really misses the Elemental Punches.

The Desert Area in RSE in general is a pit of suck. Sandshrew learns almost nothing. Trapinch fully evolves way too late. Baltoy just durdles around. The fossils are teeeerrible. Cacnea however disappointed me the most. Its offensive stats are very good, probably among the best in the game, so I felt it could do some work. However, it's too slow and too dainty, so it usually dies before it can even land a hit. Plus, its moves just don't lend themselves to offense. If only it had Chlorophyll.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Boy that post from greentyphlosion on Mareep is quite a ride. You'd have intentionally try to fail to make Mareep play badly. They must be mistaking it with HGSS Mareep, which really misses the Elemental Punches.

I'm not dying to get into this again but I believe I just said that it has a crap movepool and that there are far better choices in GSC specifically? In other games like Colosseum, XD, and B2W2 I've found it to be decent enough. I think the worst I accused it of was being slow (it is) and weak (it is).

And I'd also argue that its movepool is far better in HGSS, where Ampharos gets Signal Beam, Power Gem, Focus Blast, a guaranteed Special Hidden Power, and a bunch of far better Electric moves like Charge Beam and Discharge.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I'm not dying to get into this again but I believe I just said that it has a crap movepool and that there are far better choices in GSC specifically? In other games like Colosseum, XD, and B2W2 I've found it to be decent enough. I think the worst I accused it of was being slow (it is) and weak (it is).

And I'd also argue that its movepool is far better in HGSS, where Ampharos gets Signal Beam, Power Gem, Focus Blast, a guaranteed Special Hidden Power, and a bunch of far better Electric moves like Charge Beam and Discharge.

No way. GSC Mareep just dunks on HGSS Mareep.

Much better Mareep phase because of early Special Elemental Punches, Elec/Fire is a terrific offensive combo in-game.

Meanwhile, HGSS Mareep relies on scraps like gambling for Charge Beam on the lottery or Thunder's 70% accuracy which isn't even viable for route clearing.

If you don't use that, Thundershock. Until Lv. 34. In Johto.

Signal Beam is post-Clair, Focus Miss is garbage, Hidden Power is unreliable in both type and power in Gen 4...

Honestly, HGSS Mareep has nothing on GSC Mareep.

 

[shinquickman]

I'm not dying to get into this again but I believe I just said that it has a crap movepool and that there are far better choices in GSC specifically? In other games like Colosseum, XD, and B2W2 I've found it to be decent enough. I think the worst I accused it of was being slow (it is) and weak (it is).

I'd like to know your metrics for what makes a strong Pokemon and a good move pool in GSC. Personally, I can name more mons in GSC that are poorer than Mareep in stats and/or move pool rather than those that are equal or stronger. Admittedly this is partly because Johto's dex is very underpowered, though I'd still be remiss to label a mon with 80 Special at Lv 16 and 115 Special at Lv 30 as weak in most any generations.

And I'd also argue that its movepool is far better in HGSS, where Ampharos gets Signal Beam, Power Gem, Focus Blast, a guaranteed Special Hidden Power, and a bunch of far better Electric moves like Charge Beam and Discharge.

You seem to value potential movesets too highly. Move accessibility, that is how easily or timely a mon can learn a move, is much more valuable for in-game runs. Sure Electric, Bug, and Rock coverage for Ampharos in HGSS takes care of more match-ups than Electric and Fire Ampharos in GSC, but GSC Ampharos gets its best moves far, far earlier. Where GSC Mareep can start rocking the world with 75 Power SpA Fire Punch and Thunder Punch by Lv 16, HGSS Mareep is stuck meandering around with Thunder Shock, Rock Smash, Tackle, and the miss-prone Thunder and Focus Blast for offense from Lv 7 all the way to Lv 31. That's a lot of upkeep time.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I'd like to know your metrics for what makes a strong Pokemon and a good move pool in GSC. Personally, I can name more mons in GSC that are poorer than Mareep in stats and/or move pool rather than those that are equal or stronger. Admittedly this is partly because Johto's dex is very underpowered, though I'd still be remiss to label a mon with 80 Special at Lv 16 and 115 Special at Lv 30 as weak in most any generations.

You seem to value potential movesets too highly. Move accessibility, that is how easily or timely a mon can learn a move, is much more valuable for in-game runs. Sure Electric, Bug, and Rock coverage for Ampharos in HGSS takes care of more match-ups than Electric and Fire Ampharos in GSC, but GSC Ampharos gets its best moves far, far earlier. Where GSC Mareep can start rocking the world with 75 Power SpA Fire Punch and Thunder Punch by Lv 16, HGSS Mareep is stuck meandering around with Thunder Shock, Rock Smash, Tackle, and the miss-prone Thunder and Focus Blast for offense from Lv 7 all the way to Lv 31. That's a lot of upkeep time.

And Electric/Fire coverage is better than what it gets on HGSS by late-game anyway. It even puts in work against Karen, which would be the main advantage of Signal Beam and Focus Blast because GSC Amp can take down Vileplume and Murkrow with SE punches.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Okay, you got me. Mareep is the MVP of GSC. I just wasn't that blown away by it when I used it.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Okay, you got me. Mareep is the MVP of GSC. I just wasn't that blown away by it when I used it.

TBF you did exactly as the thread title told you to, Mareep initially looked good but for the way you play is later disappointed you. Everyone can point out all the technicalities that make Mareep good, but if you didn't do any of them/that doesn't fit your playstyle then that point it moot.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Okay, you got me. Mareep is the MVP of GSC. I just wasn't that blown away by it when I used it.

Mareep is the MVP of GS. The third-version-only plebs like me don't get to play with it.

Speaking of, how's about Growlithe as a secondary Fire-type? Similar problems as Bellsprout: Doesn't quite hit hard enough or take enough hits, stuck with Ember/Bite/Headbutt until 34 with Flamethrower coming at 50, and of course the same problem with getting Stones. OG Johto in general seems to have this problem: One of the most useful starters of all time, but piss-poor substitutes for the other two as compared to the multitude of useful Water-types.

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

from a HGSS perspective, Growlithe is *okay* in viability. Its biggest perk is that you can evolve it as an Arcanine directly, which gives you very high stats at the time you get it. However, Flamethrower is at level 34 for Growlithe, so either you sacrifice the mid-game for Flamethrower or you sacrifice the late-game for instant high stats. I'd say Ninetales is better than it, though, and so is Magmar, in my opinion.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Speaking of, how's about Growlithe as a secondary Fire-type? Similar problems as Bellsprout: Doesn't quite hit hard enough or take enough hits, stuck with Ember/Bite/Headbutt

That's better than what Cyndaquil gets until Lv. 36.

 

[jordanthejq12]

That's better than what Cyndaquil gets until Lv. 36.

Flame Wheel at 31 vs. Growlithe's 34, and Typhlosion gets to punch things. I'd take that all day.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Flame Wheel at 31 vs. Growlithe's 34, and Typhlosion gets to punch things. I'd take that all day.

That's why I said until Lv. 36.

Also, Bite at least lets it contribute against Morty. Cyndaquil requires Dig to do the same and that can get ugly if you're running a Ground-Type that needs it like Sandshrew.

 

[PokemonCrusader]

Mareep is the MVP of GS. The third-version-only plebs like me don't get to play with it.

Speaking of, how's about Growlithe as a secondary Fire-type? Similar problems as Bellsprout: Doesn't quite hit hard enough or take enough hits, stuck with Ember/Bite/Headbutt until 34 with Flamethrower coming at 50, and of course the same problem with getting Stones. OG Johto in general seems to have this problem: One of the most useful starters of all time, but piss-poor substitutes for the other two as compared to the multitude of useful Water-types.

Just another of the many bad decisions made by GameFreak for GSC.

 

[mertyville]

Time to complain about some Ice Types. So I played Pokemon XD again because I wanted my Ledian to learn Substitute and my Pidgeot to learn Double Edge. I was impressed by Seedot and Spinarak performing well as well as Dusclops in this run and Lunatone setting up the rain for my Jolteon. Also even if the Pokemon I use suck, with the EXP-Share, they should be gaining enough boosts to be viable later on... right?
Well...

I thought this wouldn't be too bad. It has Icy Wind, Bite and Water Pulse upon introduction. And I got a Rash one. But then I have to be reminded that this thing evolves into Glalie at lv42...
All that to get a less than mediocre Pokemon. Glalie was practically useless since anything it could kill was a Shadow Pokemon I intended to catch (aside from that one Flygon that nearly one shotted me with Flamethrower). And despite having a +SpA nature, Crunch didn't do much damage neither did Ice Beam. Let's ignore that Water Pulse lost it's usefulness later on.
I don't know if I should have taught it EQ or Shadow Ball honestly.

This friendshaped aquamarine ball that looks so cute didn't do anything worthwhile. The damage is pathetic and it can't even take much blows, even after evolving at lv32... I found myself trying to spam Mud Slap several battles. Aurora Beam doesn't do much. Water Gun is the only Water Move... when you remember that you can't teach it Surf in-game... Body Slam is rarely useful.
By the time I got Walrein, I might as well replace it with any of the powerful shadow Pokemon I caught. It couldn't take the consistent hits of the various shadow Pokemon late game and Blizzard always missed both targets.
Maybe I should have focused on just one ice type at the time.
Next time I should try Seel. It has Helping Hand, Surf and Ice Beam right of the bat. Sadly not as wholesome as Spheal or a real Harp Seal Baby.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

disappointing would be kinda pushing it, but i got someone to trade me a low-level salamence for my pokemon ultra moon. however, they weren't strong enough to reliably one-shot random pokemon i encountered in that battle cafe you find early in the game (the one where you fight trainers for food and get more food depending on how few turns you spend in battle). i even remember being brought to the yellow by guys like cubones lol.

though cyndaquil is one of my favorite pokemon of all time, cyndaquil's late evolution and quilava's lack of good fire-type moves until like l31 are infuriating in at least gen 2. though tm fire blast can somewhat rectify this issue, you'd have to get four badges and clear both the glitter lighthouse as well as the mahogany rocket base to have as much money as i've seen. likewise, x5 rare candies you can get pretty easily post-surf can also get you a typhlosion pretty early, though a lot of people understandably would balk at the idea of giving so many candies to one pokemon (i'd argue it's actually necessary given the awful level curve in these games, as is training only four mons incidentally at least pre-kanto).

tbf no pokemon is truly disappointing for me, not even butterfree or beedrill as i expect them to suck lol and the rest more than make up for it.

greentyphlosion, when you speak of better choices than mareep, may i ask who these are? as far as electric-types are considered, only chinchou and raikou really fit the bill (the former appearing late and being bogged down by slow exp growth and the latter being frustrating to catch without a master ball) - magnemite is a pokemon i've grown to love but they're not quite as versatile and only pop up much later, trust me on that. you certainly aren't getting electric-types from the odd egg in gold and silver as it doesn't exist there.

No way. GSC Mareep just dunks on HGSS Mareep.

Much better Mareep phase because of early Special Elemental Punches, Elec/Fire is a terrific offensive combo in-game.

Meanwhile, HGSS Mareep relies on scraps like gambling for Charge Beam on the lottery or Thunder's 70% accuracy which isn't even viable for route clearing.

If you don't use that, Thundershock. Until Lv. 34. In Johto.

Signal Beam is post-Clair, Focus Miss is garbage, Hidden Power is unreliable in both type and power in Gen 4...

Honestly, HGSS Mareep has nothing on GSC Mareep.

and we meet again lol. mareep actually has some things going for them in johto that make them even more appealing, not least the fact you can pick one up before falkner and falkner also doesn't have mud-slap to use against you this time. thundershock is fine till morty and you can get the rain dance tm after you beat morty, which makes thunder vastly more usable - and even with its dodgy accuracy, having thunder even at that point in the game is really awesome and you can simply use it alongside thundershock, you just decide when the power's worth the lost accuracy.

i'd say gsc mareep is slightly more reliable on average, but they're very much on the same level.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

and we meet again lol.

i'd say gsc mareep is slightly more reliable on average, but they're very much on the same level.

Absolutely not. Fire Punch already makes sure that there's some real difference between GSC and HGSS Mareep and you get more slots to run utility like Thunder Wave.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

No way. GSC Mareep just dunks on HGSS Mareep.

Much better Mareep phase because of early Special Elemental Punches, Elec/Fire is a terrific offensive combo in-game.

Meanwhile, HGSS Mareep relies on scraps like gambling for Charge Beam on the lottery or Thunder's 70% accuracy which isn't even viable for route clearing.

If you don't use that, Thundershock. Until Lv. 34. In Johto.

Signal Beam is post-Clair, Focus Miss is garbage, Hidden Power is unreliable in both type and power in Gen 4...

Honestly, HGSS Mareep has nothing on GSC Mareep.

Absolutely not. Fire Punch already makes sure that there's some real difference between GSC and HGSS Mareep and you get more slots to run utility like Thunder Wave.

1. I can't beat the bleep out of you without getting closer...

2. there is some real difference, and the difference largely favors hgss mareep who gets to beat up falkner, whose contribution against bugsy is arguably more important than ever, and who can acquire thunder much earlier as well as rain dance not much later.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I don't get it. Why is Bellsprout available in the early game in GSC when getting a Leaf Stone is so ludicrously difficult? It's so mind-boggling to me...

I was playing through Silver recently and it hit me like a truck. Like, I was in Goldenrod with my Weepinbell screaming "sprout gang" at the top of my lungs, only to realize there is no tooth fairy, there is no Santa, and there is no Leaf Stone.

So how does Game Freak expect you to make use of this Pokemon? By playing Crystal and praying Picnicker Gina decides to bless you with one. Or you can go to Bill's Sea College after you've cleared Johto and got an established team, I guess. You're stuck with the craptastic Weepinbell until either of these happen, bucko. At least it has fair offensive stats, I guess...

The only explanation I have is that the beta side-evolution to Weepinbell (Tsubomitto) was removed last-minute, and they forgot to remove Bellsprout...it's so odd...

So I made this post a while back, without knowing the full extent of the problem. Now I do, and oh my god. I'm not sure if I regret going back to my copy of Pokemon Silver, it certainly wanted to punish me for my ignorance.


So why are basically all the Evolution Stones post-game, despite the early game being populated by stone evolvers? Fuck, Vulpix and Growlithe are even exclusives. The Sun Stone is a prize for the Bug Catching Contest. They clearly want you to use these Pokemon.

Now I know someone replied that you can ger them earlier via phone calls with that earlier post. Turns out, no! You can't in Gold and Silver, that was a retroactive fix done in Crystal! You are stuck, my friend! These stingy gits didn't have the Ghosts of Christmas tell them why being generous is important yet.

The only evolution stones you can obtain in Gold and Silver without going to Bill's House are the Moon and Sun Stones. Moon Stones are randomly given by mom, and Sun Stones are given for winning competition. The rest? Bill's House, or a 0.20% chance of obtaining from Mystery Gift, which totalled up is 1%. Yeah, no.

So for poor old me playing Silver, I was expected to sit here and use a Weepinbell and Vulpix against the Elite Four, then go to Kanto and evolve them there. Using a Vulpix against fully evolved beasts is not ideal, as we know. What I decided on doing is grinding these two to an acceptable level for learning moves and sending them to my Red version to evolve. I bred Hypnosis onto that Vulpix and I wasn't sitting back and watching it go to waste. Fuck that.

And then there's Gloom, a Pokemon advertised as being able to evolve into two different Pokemon! Instead of this feature being presented to the player as a cool thing, they lock you to using only the Sun Stone unless you go to Kanto. You have to use Bellossom, trivializing everything. It gets worse, as once you get to the point where a Sun Stone is available, you've likely established Oddish on your team, as it's from Ilex Forest. The only other user is Sunkern, a Pokemon only obtained in the National Park during the day, and lord knows you're not using that.

I haven't the slightest idea as to why this design choice was made. They clearly regretted it with the changes in Crystal, so I'm assuming it was some kind of oversight? Did they genuinely want you to use a Vulpix against the Elite Four and evolve it in Kanto? Did they really want to strongarm you into using Bellossom? This is so odd. We essentially took a step backwards, from having evolution stones available in Celadon Department Store to them being thoroughly limited. God help anyone who saw these Pokemon and thought using them was a good idea. This was insanity. Pure insanity.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

So I made this post a while back, without knowing the full extent of the problem. Now I do, and oh my god. I'm not sure if I regret going back to my copy of Pokemon Silver, it certainly wanted to punish me for my ignorance.


So why are basically all the Evolution Stones post-game, despite the early game being populated by stone evolvers? Fuck, Vulpix and Growlithe are even exclusives. The Sun Stone is a prize for the Bug Catching Contest. They clearly want you to use these Pokemon.

Now I know someone replied that you can ger them earlier via phone calls with that earlier post. Turns out, no! You can't in Gold and Silver, that was a retroactive fix done in Crystal! You are stuck, my friend! These stingy gits didn't have the Ghosts of Christmas tell them why being generous is important yet.

The only evolution stones you can obtain in Gold and Silver without going to Bill's House are the Moon and Sun Stones. Moon Stones are randomly given by mom, and Sun Stones are given for winning competition. The rest? Bill's House, or a 0.20% chance of obtaining from Mystery Gift, which totalled up is 1%. Yeah, no.

So for poor old me playing Silver, I was expected to sit here and use a Weepinbell and Vulpix against the Elite Four, then go to Kanto and evolve them there. Using a Vulpix against fully evolved beasts is not ideal, as we know. What I decided on doing is grinding these two to an acceptable level for learning moves and sending them to my Red version to evolve. I bred Hypnosis onto that Vulpix and I wasn't sitting back and watching it go to waste. Fuck that.

And then there's Gloom, a Pokemon advertised as being able to evolve into two different Pokemon! Instead of this feature being presented to the player as a cool thing, they lock you to using only the Sun Stone unless you go to Kanto. You have to use Bellossom, trivializing everything. It gets worse, as once you get to the point where a Sun Stone is available, you've likely established Oddish on your team, as it's from Ilex Forest. The only other user is Sunkern, a Pokemon only obtained in the National Park during the day, and lord knows you're not using that.

I haven't the slightest idea as to why this design choice was made. They clearly regretted it with the changes in Crystal, so I'm assuming it was some kind of oversight? Did they genuinely want you to use a Vulpix against the Elite Four and evolve it in Kanto? Did they really want to strongarm you into using Bellossom? This is so odd. We essentially took a step backwards, from having evolution stones available in Celadon Department Store to them being thoroughly limited. God help anyone who saw these Pokemon and thought using them was a good idea. This was insanity. Pure insanity.

shout out to how HGSS hardly fixed this

ah yes, lemme go minigame grind, that doesn’t kill the pace of the game at all (phone calls for stones are remarkably unreliable).

 

[Plague von Karma]

shout out to how HGSS hardly fixed this

All they had to do was do what they did in Gen 1 and almost every other game after that: make them purchasable. Phone calls are...alright, I'll take what I can get.

I find it really odd that they'd make this problem in the first place. You're already punished for evolving them early by being locked out of moves. So, if anything, making them available early is the perfect choice, it presents the player with a big decision. Sure, experienced players whip out Bulbapedia and treat the final move they want learned as the evolution level, but for the less experienced they'll probably ponder it for longer. Making them available late-game takes away that dynamic. By far the worst part of this gen, I swear.