Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

[romanji]

first time doing nominations so yeah

---> A: Due to great variety of offensive and defensive sets, Aegislash is a solid Pokemon in UU. However, the low speed and ubiquity of Knock Off bump it down a few pegs.

---> B- to UR: Literally no reason to run Doublade now that Aegislash is here.

---> A+ to S: Salamence is one of the best offensive and defensive Pokemon in the meta. Special Salamence has very few switch-ins, Dragon Dance is a very capable sweeper, and defensive is a good cushion to fall back on.

---> B to B+: Obstagoon now has a solid defensive niche as a full stop to SubToxic Aegislash.

 

[Aqua Jet]

These will probably change as the metagame continues to develop, but here's my current take on the state of UU. I've decided to refrain from commenting on Barraskewda and Moltres due to my lack of experience with them.
Discussion Slate
A-: I expect that Buzzwole will see somewhat constant usage on Stall teams as a breaker due to its high HP, Atk, and Def stats, coupled with its magnificent movepool. It has the bulk to switchin to many physical attackers, and can threaten oncoming Flying Types with Ice Punch or Stone Edge.

Personal Nominations
A -> S: After the loss of three of its best answers (Alakazam, Slowking and Zeraora), I think that Keldeo has gotten much better. The ability to spam Choice Specs boosted STAB Hydro Pump can rip apart teams, and Keldeo can answer Specially Defensive Pokémon such as Celesteela with Secret Sword leading to a 2HKO. With access to the useful pivoting move Flip Turn, Keldeo can lure in any possible counters then pivot to teammates that can appropriatly dispose of them, continuing to threaten a late game sweep.
A+ -> S: Sporting immense versatility and incredible stats, I think that Kommo-o will become the new face of UU. With the ability to lure Fairy Types in and surprise them with Poison Jab or a switch to Scizor, a Defensive Scizor counter that can set Stealth Rock, and an omiboost using Clangorus Soul, Kommo-o is extremely consistent, versatile, and is all but mandatory to account for in the teambuilder.

Edits

-> Coloured each Rank
-> Added this
-> Changed Keldeo from "A -> A+" to "A -> S"
-> Corrected a few Spelling errors
-> Added Buzzwole as a breaker on Stall rather then Bulky Offense

 

[BigFatMantis]

Alright let's get a head start on recalibrating this for when the big boys do their next update in a few weeks:


NEW -> A+
Aegislash is not good enough to be banned, but it's still very good in the current metagame. It has the versatility to use SubToxic sets and Physical, Special, or Mixed offensive sets, all very effectively. It's by no means an S rank mon, and none of its sets will blow you out of this world and it doesn't centralize the meta like Zera did when it was here. Most teams have built in Aegislash checks already. The only reason it may become unbearable is due to its unpredictability, as you can guess it's a SubToxic set and then get slammed with a Close Combat.


NEW -> B
This isn't even UU, it fell to RU, but it's still a very very good breaker in rain, maybe the best one. It's definitely better at that job than Seismitoad, though Seismitoad offers other perks in some defensive utility and can be used on non-rain teams just fine. Without rain, Skewda is very meh - it's fast and strong, but it's only STAB move is 85 base power, so without rain you'll find it doesn't hit as hard as you want it to hit. But with Close Combat, Psychic Fangs, priority, Flip Turn for momentum - it's still a good mon. B for sure.


NEW -> A-
Buzzwole finally arrives as an answer to what everyone thought was a multitude of problems. But what you will find is that the tier is very prepared for it offensively - we have plenty of strong offensive flying hitters like Salamence, Moltres-G (and regular Moltres), Celesteela, and then you even have things like Keldeo that can Specs Air Slash it. It helps keep Scizor in check, until Scizors start running Dual Wingbeat. Overall I think the Buzz hype is overdone and while it will be a very good mon for the tier, it doesn't save it from the high-octane offensive presence that currently exists here. In fact, it may even be better used as an offensive presence itself.


NEW -> B+
Moltres is another good addition to the tier, and it certainly helps with Scizor as you are now forced to run Protective Pads on Scizor if you want to be totally safe from a Burn. Other than checking Scizor, it isn't particularly outstanding at any one job. It can be used offensively and take down all of the grasses that we have here, but things like Celesteela already do that and isn't forced to run boots. It can be used as an ok defogger I suppose with its average physical bulk. It will certainly be used and will have its moments, but it's not going to be anything to write to your aunt Phyllis about.

Now on to existing things that I think should shift considerably:


A to A+
Tangrowth has, I believe, eclipsed Amoonguss as the go-to Grass for the tier now. AV Tangrowth in particularly is hard to handle, as many usual checks like Moltres and Nihilego have a hard time breaking through it and can be pressured by Knock or EQ or even Rock Slide. Even Specs Keldeo only does 49% max with Sword and 51% max with Air Slash.


A+ to A-
Amoonguss is not really it anymore. Everyone and their next door neighbor slaps random goggles on something, and its offensive ability is highly sus compared to Tangrowth. It's basically a Spore bot that can prevent Scizor from getting out of hand by using Foul Play, and then has some Giga/Sludge attacks just to masquerade as something that can hit things. Other than Scizor there doesn't seem to be much reason to use this over Tangrowth anymore.


A to S
Honestly this honse is fucking absurd now - with Specs + Hydro/Sword/Air Slash/Flip it's either momentum or something dies. With Zam and Zera gone it barely needs scarf anymore, and the only threats to outspeed and kill it are Azelf and Thundurus (Starmie and Torandus too if you count lower tier mons that are decent). Slowking really held this thing in check well - now its defensive counterplay is severely limited to things like Salamence, Tentacruel, or making the right predict. It is by far one of the most threatening forces in the metagame currently.


B+ to A
With Skarmory gone, Gyarados is free to take over as a dominant Moxie sweeper. The defensive options to stop it are very limited now, as even Tangrowth breaks from Bounce. Aegislash seems like one of the only decent defensive answers but it becomes a mind game to predict the attack with the King's Shield. What else is there? Weezing-G? Salamence can do its very best but you realistically only have one shot to stop Gyarados once it sets up DD, and if you blow it then it will run through your whole team now.


C to B-
Hello? You guys were all so fascinated with the furry that you forgot we had this tiger here the whole time. Sure it's not a physical electric, but it has the ability to set up and sweep better than any other electric we've got. With Sub/CM sets it can freely set up on grasses/Chansey, and even without setup it still hits very hard. And it's quite fast - as fast or faster than anything else in the tier atm. I can see people going to use this more often now.


C+ to S
This is not a joke - Azelf nukes the entire tier and you can't stop it. Try playing against an offensive Azelf today. I dare you. I double dog dare you. It's absolutely bonkers - the most dangerous mon in the entire meta. If the enemy team does not have Incineroar, then you will almost certainly lose to an NP set. NP/Psyshock/Fire Blast/Energy Ball is all it needs to go ham and cheese on everything. At +2 it even OHKO's Celesteeela with Expert Belt. Here are some examples:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1313712454-wtq3hnins1f2g0i1d268j3wuydfwqcspw - Azelf would have swept the entire enemy team if not for a timeout-forfeit - that's a 6-0 by Azelf.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1313570527-2wk6tuomz5sbzp36eh86xclwygxiauppw - Another 6-0 by Azelf here (or would be 6-0), as the entire team is threatened by the coverage and Azelf is faster.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1314179946 - not an Azelf 6-0, but it still cleans up at the end

And that's just the Special NP set. You can run a Knock set or U-Turn with Orb and break through things without even needing NP. I know I've been saying for a long time as a meme that Azelf is the best, but it honestly is so good right now that it may even become too problematic - there is nothing in the tier that threatens everything like this elf does atm.


That's all Happy Easter everyone

 

[Monky25]

Gonna drop some VR nominations for y'all- note that these are first impressions and that some may end up being void as the meta develops, but overall I think I can verifiably make some nominations that will probably be correct even after the few weeks of development
Nominations I agree with

to A, agree. I think Amoonguss should definitely drop on the VR, though maybe to A instead of A-. Like Mantis said, tang has become the better grass atm due to the ability to viable run assault vest and have offensive presence. Meanwhile, amoonguss feels like dead weight sometimes after sporing something and with zera gone its less needed in the builder. Also, king leaving weakens the regenerator core duo they had. Lastly, we have seen adaptations to amoonguss like goggles g bro and scizor as well as sleep talk on Pokemon like Chandelure to abuse it. Overall amoonguss is less dominant than before and should drop as a result.

conversely, I believe tangrowth should rise to A+. Assault vest is very good right now being able to help answer things like keldeo and aegislash as well as still dealing with stuff like murder dog. It has more of an offensive presence than amoong and is less reliant on putting things to sleep. I feel depending on the state of the meta amoong and tang just trade places on the VR, and right now its Tang's time to shine in A+

to A+, agree. Keldeo is super threatening in this meta right now, with two of its best offensive checks in zam and zera leaving as well as a defensive counter in slowking leaving. However, I wouldn't say its S rank the same way scizor or mence could be. Its fairly linear and doesn't always fit on a team. Furthermore, while it does seem insane, we could see a rise of pokemon like starmie and thundurus who can check it offensively as well as stuff like AV tang, prim, tenta, and miltoic on the defensive end. Keld is for sure an A+ threat but S is too high for it.

to A-/A, agree. What do magnezone, skarm, zera, and kyurem all have in common? They all checked or countered gyarados, and with them gone gyara is free to go on a snowballing sweeping spree. It can also go adamant now that the speed tier is much lower. It still has answers in things like mence and is fairly weak without a boost, not to mention buzzwole mandates bounce on it (not like many ran ice fan anyway). Bounce is fairly abusable as well, but gyara is able to overcome these shortcomings and earn a spot in the A ranks.

to B: Ok time for an Azelf nom that the VR team will actually listen to, azelf in my opinion should be B. Its main competition is gone and lost two prominent revenge killers. It has a wide movepool and is one of the fastest viable things in UU. However, azelf doesn't exactly have the spalshability of higher rank mons. It can do good if it gets doing but that depends on if it can get in, and because of the frailty it has it often requires voltturn to get in. Its a high risk high reward Pokemon imo, it can do good in certain situations and can fit on the right team, just like the other Pokemon in B, so that's where it belongs

to B: I'm pretty high on this guy rn, this has sorta replaced zera as a pivot on a lot of my teams. Having a solid special attack stat and fair bulk alongside good speed and coverage to hit grounds makes raikou fill zera's shoes to a degree. It isn't a perfect replacement, but raikou is def underrated and should rise all the way to B. Its sub CM set has also improved a lot making the rise worthy it.

to B: Rain has improved immensely due to changes, losing problems for it in zera and slowking while also getting barra. barra is a brutally powerful wallbreaker under rain, hitting hard with choice band liquidation. It has wide coverage in psychic fangs, poison jab, and close combat to hit the resists of it and can pivot out with flip turn in bad scenarios. It also can utilize a boots pivot set outside of rain as well, being the fastest viable Pokemon here now. Not a bad Pokemon and fits with the other B ranks in terms of viability

to A/A+: Big boi buzzer has returned! Being a superb physical wall alongside a powerful attacker makes this guy really worth running. A massive physical defense stat that can let it live a Sheer Force boosted flare blitz from darmanitan is incredible and gives teams other options other than tang or amoong to use as a physical wall. It has reliable recovery in roost as well. Furthermore, it can run offensive sets like choice band and choice scarf due to its amazing physical attack stat and coverage, with moves like close combat, earthquake, poison jab, ice punch, thunder punch, and stone edge getting the job done. A crippling weakness to mence and g moltres however keeps it in A rank for the most part, though it could certainly rise to A+ as time goes on

to B+/A-: moltres is certainly not a bad Pokemon, it can take on plenty common Pokemon like buzzwole, scizor, tang, and amoongus. However, it faces severe competition from salamence for what it does, being an offensive defogger. whatever molt does, mence does better, having higher speed and stronger attacks as well as not dying to rocks if it gets knocked off. However, moltres is still solid, doing the same thing while also helping not stack weaknesses. It also has u-turn to pivot out against incoming primarina or rhyperior as well as flame body to punish things like U-turn from zarude. Moltres is a solid Pokemon overall and will put in work, but compared to mence this guy is not worthy using much at times, so B+/A- works for it.
My Own Nominations

to A/A+: Now that zeraora, its main competition is gone, I predict we will be a surge of thundurus-I as the de facto electric pivot. Its pivot sets works pretty well, not relying on volt switch to pivot since it has U-turn and can also hit things like queen with psychic. Its nasty plot set is also gonna get a lot better due to less revenge killers, though it does dislike the rise in AV tang to a degree. I lean toward A+ just because it is one of the few pokemon that can naturally outspeed keldeo, the number 1 threat on everyone's mind.

to A: Like its brother, thundy-t also deserves a rise. It no longer has to trade with zeraora and its nasty plot set looks to be incredibly brutal to face. However, a slower speed tier than keldeo, nihilego, and lycanroc-d limits it a bit, so I think a rise to A fits good for this. Seriously, try this dude out you wont regret it. Also both thundurus forms like the increased viability of rain so there is that as a positive as well.

to B+: Starmie also appreciates certain metagame changes happening. Virtually all the pokemon that rose or got banned checked/countered starmie so now its gonna go crazy with them gone. A lower speed level in the tier also helps, and lastly it provides valuable traits like revenging keldeo and both thundurus forms, all top mons in the meta. I think the meta has shifted enough in Starmie's favor to support a rise to B+

to B+: It seems the milotic agenda has won. Anyway, with kings departure miltoic looks to step in as the bulky water pivot of choice now. Being able to help check stuff like scizor, aegislash, and keldeo is pretty good rn. Nothing much more to say, milotic is pretty good right now and belongs in B+.

to B-: A bit of a weird drop, but now that zera has risen gastro's viability is a bit hampered, being possibly the best counter to it. It rose because of zera, now it should drop because of zera. Other rockers like clanger and rhyperior are much better rn and gastro fits back in with B- imo.

to C+/C: A weird one to rank, but as the ranks shift around a lot more and more Pokemon enter ranks that push others out. Ditto is nowhere on the level of other B- mons atm, stuff like diance, cobailion, noivern, togekiss, and zydog are far better than ditto. Stall is somewhat bad in the meta rn and with HO looking to be on the slight decline its uses are more limited. Ditto always has a niche, but B- is too much and C+/C fits it better.

to B-: Rain has shot up in viability, so it makes sense that politoed should rise despite politoed itself being shit. B- is a good staring place as rain is certainly around there in terms of viability. I don't think poli and barra should be in the same rank because barra can also be used outside of rain, so politoed fits in the subrank below barra, being B-.

to B-: Similarly, as rain gets better so does kingdra. Kingdra isn't even that mandatory on rain as other options like seismitoad and keldeo also work to a better degree, but still kingdra can put in work when given the chance and rain's increased viability makes it so it should rise to B- alongside politoed.

to B-: This guy looking lethal on rain right now. No zeraora to revenge it and 100% accurate hurricanes is gonna be nasty. This is like the second or third time I have nommed it and while I do understand the first 2 times now happening, now is a different story as torn on rain kicks some ass.

to UR: A strange nom, but I do think kabutops is not worth using now that barra is in the tier. A just as powerful attack state and a higher speed outside of rain makes kabutops outclassed for the most part. It has rock stab for mence but I personally don't think its enough to keep its niche.

to UR: With zera leaving ended any niche palossand has. Tang being popular also helps take away its lycanroc-d niche as well. Pretty simple, this guys is bad and any viability it had left when zera went to OU.

- i just want to say that my nominations in this post are still valid in my eyes, so with the exception of bisharp that rose I still support these changes, so don't forget about it despite being in the old meta!

Man, That's a long post. Feel free to share any of your thoughts and whether you agree/disagree. Like I said earlier, most are first impressions but I feel these nominations still have long staying purpose and will likely be valid even after a few weeks of development. I'll catch y'all later

 

[Rcook]

to B+ Azelf is currently rising in usage due to the ban of Zam and Zera and honestly is has an amazing speed tier with scarfers like Zarude and Krook being serious threats to revenge kill it. Noviern, Barra, and Crobat are only semi-viable in this tier and will not be common enough to really concern Azelf. With access to NP and good coverage such as Fire Blast/Flamethrower and Tbolt/Eball it is clear that when this gets an NP up it can do some serious damage to every pokemon in the tier and an immunity to ground allowing it more opportunities to setup as well as threatening mons like Scizor/Gus/Steela it can realistically setup in a game and can act as an effective wallbreaker against a lot of the tier. Taking a look at B rank mons like Starmie, Incin, and Gastro are honestly not as good as Azelf in this meta, I personally think that since it can be a good offensive threat and one the best suicide leads in the tier it is as viable as mons like Zarude and Reun.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Roserade to B-

It lost its biggest competition spiker in skarmory, and lost one of the biggest resist to its stabs. While scizor still walls it, sleep + spikes or recovery + spikes is still a good combo and it pressures a lot of rockers with its stabs such as krook, rhyperior, and diancie. Also spikes pressure a lot of pokemon such as scizor, who is its biggest counter, jirachi, and kommo-o which help wear them down. While sleep powder allows it to cripple pokemon such as jirachi, celesteela, non-safety goggles scizor, and aegislash. LO leaf storm is a very strong nuke and combined with annoying sludge bomb poisons it can really dent some teams that lack a proper resist.


252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 79-95 (28.1 - 33.8%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(BANDED SCIZ)

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Jirachi: 120-140 (29.7 - 34.6%) -- 11.2% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
(Wish rachi) This forces jirachi to burn through wish PP as it takes a lot from spikes + leaf storm and can be taken advantage off.

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 129-152 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Kommo-o is also worn down very fast by spikes and stabs.

In conclusion, roserade is a very strong Pokémon, it just has a lot of problems due to its stabs being walled by the most common type in steel which hinders it from being higher.

 

[Rae]

While it's nice seeing already good mons move up, I'm here to nom some lower ones!

to B/B+ Esta's favourite tiger has proven it's worth with Zeraora leaving, which had originally stolen it's spotlight. Both a Boots set and SubCM set have merit, though I could see Calm Mind + 3 Attacks become a thing in the near future. Good offenses, usable bulk and a great tier permit the sabretooth a spot in B+, maybe even A- if we're getting overzealous

to B Cobalion has been great for me as a utility mon and defensive pivot. It's ability to provide both a rocker and Volt Switch momentum is fantastic, and can still threaten things with a Close Combat or Iron Head (I'm surprised this thing didn't get Body Press, but oh well). It's speed tier is also handy, being able to outspeed base 100's and tie with Keldeo, def a B mon in my opinion.

to B+ Another great defensive pivot with it's newly accessed Flip Turn, it has the ability to pressure defensive walls with a Toxic and threaten Salamence with an Ice Beam which is always great. Both Competitive and Marvel Scale have their niches, and the slow momentum it gives is nice so I believe that Milotic should move up too B+

to B: Haxorus lost Skarmory, it's best counter. You know what that means? It may not be as frightening as Salamence, but still hits like a freight train and with a Dragon Dance it can become a devastatingly powerful force. It's middling bulk does make it easy to revenge kill however, though I strongly believe that it belongs in B

to B: I got rocked by this a little while ago, it's incredibly bulky had pure Fairy typing is always great. It functions as a great check to Salamence, Kommo-o (Since most are running either Bulletproof or Overcoat), Buzzwole and Krookodile, so I'm more than happy with putting this up to B

to B-: Pretty self-explanatory, Rain got better with Skewda coming and Zera going bye-bye.

to A-:

C+ to S
This is not a joke - Azelf nukes the entire tier and you can't stop it. Try playing against an offensive Azelf today. I dare you. I double dog dare you. It's absolutely bonkers - the most dangerous mon in the entire meta. If the enemy team does not have Incineroar, then you will almost certainly lose to an NP set. NP/Psyshock/Fire Blast/Energy Ball is all it needs to go ham and cheese on everything. At +2 it even OHKO's Celesteeela with Expert Belt. Here are some examples:

While i do believe that Azelf has gotten much better with the shifts, I don't think it's an S worthy mon yet. It should be given credit for it's great mixed offensive stats and great speed tier, as well as bulk that lets it live a BP unlike Zam, it still struggles a bit in the tier. I do think that this is an A- worthy Pokemon though, it's proven itself quite handy in those replays!

 

[Chicknemacnchez]

B to B+ Sun got much better. How you say? Keldeo. Venusaur in sun is almost a perfect Keldeo answer. You can just growth on a locked stab move and procede to destroy the opposing. Teams without Kommo-o have to sack mons to get it into banded bp range from Scizor or ice shard from Mamoswine. On top of that it absolutely destroys Chansey in sun because giga recovers so much and you can growth to +6.

 

[Sickist]

A- -> B

This may look to be an overdramatic drop, but Jirachi is seriously as useless as it's stupid star baby face depicts. It checks literally NOTHING, and only has a decent amount of utility to keep it from anything below B atm. It's honestly just so lackluster in a metagame where you want your steel to actually do something offensively (Scizor) or function as an actual check to things (Aegislash), and it consistently falls short every single time. Now, Jirachi is still certainly viable. Choice Scarf is usable on some teams and Healing Wish on Stealth Rock sets is usable and almost good 1% of the time. But A- is definitely NOT the place for Jirachi right now, and honestly, B+ isn't either.

 

[Band]

A- -> A
Mew is currently our only viable Spiker, has amazing role compression by fitting double hazards on HO, is able to choose between Will-O-Wisp and Toxic to cripple Salamence and defensive pivots like Tangrowth and Rotom-W, has access to Knock Off, and reliable recovery with Soft-Boiled (Roost unviable). Mew can simply pull coverage out of its ass and OHKO your Salamence with Ice Beam or your Scizor with Flamethrower, and has the liberty of choosing what item it will run, like Heavy-Duty Boots, Leftovers, or Colbur Berry. Mew is extremely customizable to its team's needs and has amazing utility. For this, it deserves to rise to A.


A -> S
With Zeraora, Alakazam, and Slowking leaving, Keldeo's main forms of counterplay are also gone. Keldeo was never bad, but Zera and King were literally everywhere, making its life a nightmare. Zam's quick rise in popularity didn't help Keldeo either. With them gone, virtually nothing wants to switch into Keldeo or is able of revenge killing it. Chansey is scared shitless of Secret Sword, which also 2HKOes offensive Primarina after Stealth Rock, and Grass-types are 2HKOed by Specs Air Slash. Revenge killing Keldeo is very hard, since it resists common priority like Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet, and it has good bulk to take even neutral hits well. As for CM sets, they also got better, since you can't switch into Slowking anymore to Future Sight to break the eventual Substitute and bring Zera or Zam freely with Teleport. Pokémon such as Primarina and Mantine could see some rise in usage, along with revenge killers like Starmie and Raikou. Keldeo has become a defining force you absolutely have to account for when building, and imo this is enough to prove Keldeo's power in the tier, and thus it deserves to be S rank.



A -> A+
Tangrowth looks a lot better now and has more going for it than Amoonguss does. For starters, Tang actually makes progress against the opponent through Knock Off and actually does damage because its offensive stats are high (100/110). Secondly, yes, Sleep Powder sucks, but at least it also has that. That brings me to my next point: people will most likely start using AV Tangrowth with Keldeo now becoming so defining and other Pokemon like Raikou and Primarina also getting some more attention. AV Tangrowth also has other perks over Amoonguss by also checking Ground-types a bit safer. AV variants can choose moves like Rock Slide, Brick Break, and Earthquake, something Amoonguss could never do and won't ever be able to do because of its only defining trait: Spore. Tangrowth provides more versatility to teams and actually has more tools to make progress through Knock Off and coverage, so it deserves to rise.


A- -> A
Murder dog becomes a lot more free with Skarm and Zeraora leaving, two of the biggest stoppers to its wallbreaking/revenge killing. With the tier's Speed level going significantly down without Zera and Zam, and Keldeo starting to look like a top tier threat, Murder Dog sits at a perfect 350 Speed tier, surpassing Keldeo's 346. Lycan can comfortably revenge kill Keldeo because of this, and also has the merit of being able to revenge kill other Pokémon that got a lot better, like Salamence and Gyarados due to Accelerock.


B+ -> A+
Kind of a big jump, but Gyarados looks insane right now. No Zera, Kyu or Skarm leaves this thing free to just set up one DD and sweep teams. Not being forced to run Jolly if you're scared of random Jolly Zeraora is a nice bonus, too. Gyarados also acts as an emergency Keldeo check, since it takes three Specs-boosted Hydro Pumps. There's very little outside of murder dog that can rkill Gyarados, since it resists BP and Jet and we have a total of 1 actual Choice Scarf user.

Quick Noms


Wouldn't mind it raising
I'm still not very set on S rank Salamence, but I can def see where that argument comes from. It keeps Scizor in check constantly which is ofc very nice, and with Keldeo kind of becoming a huge thing now, I can see some more support for it being S. Wouldn't mind it being S, just don't have that much experience with it, especially DD sets so idk.


Agree on raising
Either A- or A seems fitting for washer. Unlike oven, it's not weak to rocks, not only is immune but also threatens Ground-types, lures Grasses for teammates and can afford to run Pain Split if it wants to tbh. Will-O-Wisp comes in handy as always and the first thing that comes to mind when i think abt VoltTurn is Scizor+Washer because they're so good together. I think A is a good place for it, but A- also works.


Agree on raising
Great soul clanger counter, eats two Keld Hydro Pumps with lefties, and has Fire-type coverage for scizor, which is HUGE for a Fairy-type. Also eats hits from Chandy and Thundy-T if needed. Has offensive presence through Pixilate Hyper Voice, which is nice since it doesn't become a Wish bot. Lastly, Mfire's SpA lowering effect is extremely handy against switch-ins like Glowbro.


Agree on dropping
Only reason I see to use this is Scarf Hwish and because haha 60% flinch chance.

 

[Expulso]

I agree with almost everything in Bandkrook's post above, except for

Wouldn't mind it raising
I'm still not very set on S rank Salamence, but I can def see where that argument comes from. It keeps Scizor in check constantly which is ofc very nice, and with Keldeo kind of becoming a huge thing now, I can see some more support for it being S. Wouldn't mind it being S, just don't have that much experience with it, especially DD sets so idk.

I think Salamence should be ranked below Noivern, meaning Noivern needs a huge raise and Mence needs a drop. U-turn and a speed tier faster than Keldeo make Noivern better at the special attacker set, which was Mence's most common set in the Slowking meta. Gyara is prob a more threatening DD sweeper, too, with the rapid rise in popularity of the Rotom forms (which is at least partially to check Moltres) meaning it is walled unless it runs Outrage. (rhyp is also up to check those).
Lilburr agenda

 

[gye5]

I agree with almost everything in Bandkrook's post above, except for


I think Salamence should be ranked below Noivern, meaning Noivern needs a huge raise and Mence needs a drop. U-turn and a speed tier faster than Keldeo make Noivern better at the special attacker set, which was Mence's most common set in the Slowking meta. Gyara is prob a more threatening DD sweeper, too, with the rapid rise in popularity of the Rotom forms (which is at least partially to check Moltres) meaning it is walled unless it runs Outrage. (rhyp is also up to check those).
Lilburr agenda

I disagree, noivern, only has that speed tier over mence, and u turn isnt that important when u try to use that move slot to check more mons. Mence higher defenses, better ability, way stronger and a better movepool makes mence the superior choices. Gyarados has issue with its coverage too as a dd sweeper. It has to choose between beating grasses, mence or rotom wash. That speed tier is horrible, it gets outspeed by the common krokodile. Mence has the ability to run more sets like scarf, defensive or fast special attacker, if u really think gyarado is ur option as ur dd sweeper. If keldeo icy winds on the switch is the same result any ways. Relying on hurrimiss as the only good flying stab, because it really needs that power to make noivern function.

 

[Band]

Some parts of the post above don't sit well w/ me so I'll adress some of them

Gyarados has issue with its coverage too as a dd sweeper. It has to choose between beating grasses, mence or rotom wash.

Gyarados @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Power Whip

This is Gyarados's most common set. It beats everything you listed. The only difference is that running Bounce over Ice Fang is riskier, but gives you an actual reliable STAB to hit Grass-types harder. Also gives you neutral coverage for Salamence. Gyarados is an amazing DD sweeper, even being outsped by Krookodile. DD Mence is also great, though. Both have their pros and cons, much like every mon.

Mence has the ability to run more sets like scarf, defensive or fast special attacker

That's not necessarily what makes Salamence better than Gyarados, though. Salamence has actual defensive utility, even if you're not running a defensive set, since Special sets run Intimidate and even some DD sets do. Salamence's access to Roost and ability of actually running Fire-type coverage without being hindered is what separates it from Gyarados, especially when it comes to checking Scizor and other mons.

Relying on hurrimiss as the only good flying stab, because it really needs that power to make noivern function.

Salamence usually runs Hurricane too, even on Defog sets. Yeah you can opt for Dual Wingbeat but Hurricane just hits harder and is more worth it imo.

 

[gye5]

Some parts of the post above don't sit well w/ me so I'll adress some of them

Gyarados @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Power Whip

This is Gyarados's most common set. It beats everything you listed. The only difference is that running Bounce over Ice Fang is riskier, but gives you an actual reliable STAB to hit Grass-types harder. Also gives you neutral coverage for Salamence. Gyarados is an amazing DD sweeper, even being outsped by Krookodile. DD Mence is also great, though. Both have their pros and cons, much like every mon.

That's not necessarily what makes Salamence better than Gyarados, though. Salamence has actual defensive utility, even if you're not running a defensive set, since Special sets run Intimidate and even some DD sets do. Salamence's access to Roost and ability of actually running Fire-type coverage without being hindered is what separates it from Gyarados, especially when it comes to checking Scizor and other mons.

Salamence usually runs Hurricane too, even on Defog sets. Yeah you can opt for Dual Wingbeat but Hurricane just hits harder and is more worth it imo.

I agree with u, each gyara and mence have threir unique traits

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Noivern -> B/B+

Noivern is the fastest pokemon, without its competition for speed control zeraora, noivern is now the new fastest pokemon besides barraskewda, who is mainly a rain pokemon, who can use its fast speed to pivot and revenge kill pokemon such as thundurus-t, keldeo, zygarde 10%. Has pretty good moves in draco, flamethrower, hurricane, u-turn, roost, defog. It pretty much does everything what mence but is weaker and faster by 51 points, but also pivots, which gives it a pretty good reason to use it. It is basicly a weaker and faster mence that can pivot while having a good matchup vs sub mons such as drum kommo-o, keldeo, and jirachi.

 

[Hilomilo]

Our slate for the update has been voted on! I'll be locking this thread in the meantime while I work on the write-up. Expect an update post a few days from now! :))

 

[Hilomilo]

Here's the first half of our update! In this post I'm covering our new placements and rises. Enjoy!

added to A: Aegislash has made a name for itself as one of the tier’s most versatile offensive picks. Its typing and King’s Shield yield great defensive utility, which alongside the prowess of Ghost/Fighting coverage and priority gives mixed sets serious claim. SubToxic has also proven to be a strong option, crippling defensive checks and limiting its offensive counterplay with King’s Shield, while Choice Specs and Swords Dance have also seen use for the immense damage output they offer. While its Speed weighs it down, Aegislash has sufficient means of adapting around its counterplay and consistently performing in different matchups.

added to A: Buzzwole provides an excellent blend of offensive prowess and defensive utility. Amazing physical bulk allows it to take advantage of several prominent physical attackers, including Scizor and Krookodile, pairing excellently with the breaking threat it poses thanks to its huge Attack, strong Close Combat, and solid coverage. Roost + 3 Attacks and Choice Band have emerged as strong picks in the metagame, though its special bulk, situational Speed, and occasionally abusable STABs present fair shortcomings for it.

added to A: Moltres has strong utility with its typing and Flame Body in this metagame, offering a solid pivot into foes like Scizor, Buzzwole, and Tangrowth. Its Knock Off vulnerability is a very real issue, though it brings great defensive utility, can have its moveset accommodated to the teams it’s fitted on thanks to its good supportive movepool, and also presents a STAB combo with few consistent switch-ins, giving it many ways of taking advantage of the free turns it can grab.

added to B: Barraskewda has a niche as a strong offensive pivot with boots, its Speed giving it the jump on newly surging Pokemon like Noivern and Thundurus. It has also breathed some life into rain builds again which I’ll delve into later. Its excellent coverage and unmatched Speed are great offensive utility, though 4mss, slight damage output issues, and vulnerability to our steady defensive Grass-types prevent it from being the best of the best.

Rises
from A to S: Keldeo has absolutely thrived since the departures of two offensive checks in Zeraora and Alakazam and its biggest defensive hurdle in Slowking. It poses a huge immediate threat with its excellent STAB combo and Secret Sword, while the tier’s Speed control and general trends have noticeably warped around its presence recently. Now a very important factor in shaping the tier’s direction, Keldeo’s threat level and importance are perfectly reflected with a spot in S.

from A to A+: AV Tangrowth is one of the tier’s best pivots into Keldeo and can also offer a solid matchup against various other nuisances, like mixed Aegislash and Thundurus. Its offensive movepool is still excellent for forcing progress and surprising some switch-ins while it also poses as an obstacle to many trending Pokemon, including Rotom-W, Lycanroc, Zarude, and some Raikou sets.

from A- to A+: Mew is something of a rising star recently, having simply incredible moveset versatility, splashability, and offensive/defensive utility alike in the current meta. It’s one of our few good Spikes setters but has also performed excellently with Taunt + 2 attacks sets, proving troublesome to reliably counter thanks to its immense coverage movepool. It is the tier’s most customizable means of support and utility and has a genuinely hard time failing to contribute in a given match, which is well worth a spot in A+ at this stage.

from A- to A: Heattom is an increasingly great pick as Scizor’s dominance only furthers and Moltres carves a strong niche in the tier. Its pivoting set can reliably force progress between its ability to check many tier staples and access to a colorful support movepool, though Nasty Plot is also still neat for its ability to take advantage of most the tier’s defensive staples, such as Celesteela and Tangrowth.

from A- to A: Galarian Slowbro has developed a realized niche as a late-game menace with Calm Mind, finding solid opportunities to accumulate boosts with its bulk and ability to capitalize on Tangrowth/Amoonguss/etc. The durability Regenerator lends it and the headache most teams encounter pivoting around Sludge Bomb and Scald in the early- to mid-game gives it a lot of consistency and utility.

from A- to A: Both Thundurus formes have improved a ton following the tier shift/recent bans, fitting onto teams more comfortably without Zeraora around. Thundurus possesses one of the tier’s most valuable Speed tiers with Keldeo on top of the metagame and Zeraora and Alakazam both gone, giving both pivoting and NP sets a lot of value. Thundurus-T no longer has to trade or compete for a slot with Zeraora and continues its surge as one of the tier’s most threatening offensive forces with its sheer power, coverage, and Nasty Plot.

from B+ to A-: Diggersby’s SD + Silk Scarf set has seen some recent improvement, with very few offensive structures actually being able to handle a +2 Quick Attack in the late-game. It can solidly take advantage of Tangrowth more commonly investing in special bulk with AV sets to blow it back with Fire Punch, which can also combat paper checks like Celesteela and Buzzwole. Diggy’s general defensive utility will never be the greatest, though its breaking prowess has really shined lately.

from B+ to A-: A highly anticipated change, Gyarados is a lot more potent with a strong defensive check in Skarmory and offensive answers in Zeraora and Kyurem now out of the picture. Its niche as a sweeper will always feel a bit confined to offenses, though it has more breathing room to perform its role now than for most of the DLC2 metagame.

from B+ to A-: Jirachi and Chansey’s heydays are over, Zeraora is gone, and the metagame’s defensive staples no longer include Slowking, which gives Nihilego lots more breathing room. Overall, its perks and utility are a lot more recognizable now than in previous iterations of the metagame, which justifies a rise.

from B+ to A-: Washtom compresses a lot of valuable roles between spreading status, posing as one of the more reliable defoggers available, and having lots of potency as a pivot thanks to its ability to lure in defensive Pokemon like Tangrowth. It offers great utility and synergy with many popular Pokemon and has finally begun cementing a firm spot for itself in the tier again.

from B+ to A-: In spite of the tier shifts, Zarude still brings plenty offensive utility, holding a place in the tier as a premier scarfer. It has solid matchups against staples like Mew and Keldeo, while boots sets that can more freely utilize Jungle Healing are also nice, capitalizing on popular presences like Milotic, Rotom-W, and SubToxic Aegislash.

from B- to A-: Noivern sees a HUGE rise on the merit of being a premier option for Speed control in a post-Zeraora metagame. Its Speed tier is especially important with Keldeo as dominant as ever and Pokemon like Thundurus holding larger places than before. Like always, it has managed to establish a true, valuable place in the tier with clearer applications over Salamence than ever before.

from B to B+: Seismitoad has increased value as a rocker lately as Pokemon like Moltres, the Rotom formes, and Raikou have become tier staples. Its ability can be handy for checking Barraskewda and dissuading other Water-type breakers from spamming their STAB moves, while Scald/Knock Off/Toxic all give it plentiful options to consistently force progress in matches.

from B to B+: Without Alakazam to compete with, Starmie has managed to further its reputation as an underrated wallbreaking presence. Its Speed is an especially useful tool alongside its damage output as Keldeo and the Thundurus formes take center stage. Being an option for hazard removal is also super nice in a metagame with few good ones.

from B- to B+: Sylveon is slowly but surely inching towards having serious value in the tier. It’s a strong pivot into Salamence/Noivern, checks Kommo-o, and can handle hits from Keldeo and Thundurus formes if it needs to. Being able to smack Scizor with Mystical Fire is also really great for keeping up offensive pressure.

from C to B+: Raikou has improved dramatically without Zeraora to compete with, its nigh unmatched Speed, good power, set versatility, and coverage all allowing it to develop into a near staple. SubCM with Scald for coverage has become a flagship set for its ability to capitalize on passive Pokemon like Amoonguss/Celesteela thanks to Pressure, though SubToxic, pivoting sets with boots, and Calm Mind + 3 Attacks are also options worth exploring as Raikou continues to define a long-standing niche in the tier.

from B- to B: Cobalion sees a small upgrade due to picking up some more recent usage for the role compression it provides. It’s one of the better Scizor checks available, has a Speed tier with increased value, and has decent options for the metagame, such as SD + Stone Edge for luring Moltres and co or Stealth Rock-oriented sets.

from B- to B: Milotic is becoming a legitimate component of the metagame, posing as one of the best options for a bulky Water-type with Slowking out of the picture. It’s a decent pivot into Aegislash/Chandelure/Salamence and keeps up a lot of additional utility with Flip Turn and its colorful support movepool.

from B- to B: Togekiss isn’t a mainstream threat per se, but has a lot more capacity to perform without Pokemon like Zeraora/Kyurem/Terrakion around to harsh its flow. It still has yet to firmly cling onto a consistent niche, but has lots of potency with many of its main hurdles now being non-factors in the meta.

from C+ to B-: A long awaited rise for some, Azelf has finally broken free from the C ranks due to having legitimate potency with Nasty Plot. Alakazam and Zeraora’s departures are pretty huge for it and it also has the coverage necessary to muscle past the bulk of the metagame. It should be interesting to see how Azelf develops as a threat moving forward.

from C+ to B-: Keys has new worth as a Steel-type Spikes setter now that Skarmory is in OU. The role it occupies is no longer crowded, and while still fairly niche, it provides some unique tools like Prankster Thunder Wave, which can be really clutch should an opposing sweeper begin to get out of hand.

from C to B-: UU has been in the market for fast, strong, physical Fighting-types following Terrakion’s ban, and Mienshao can fit the bill. It has solid means of forcing progress with U-turn and Knock Off being prime utility, while Regenerator lends itself to surprising longevity. It has yet to find a complete identity, but certainly could given the amount it currently brings.

from C to C+: Rain builds have found slight footing for the first time in the DLC2 metagame thanks to Barraskewda’s new presence in the tier, which means the two staples of the archetype deserve a rise. Whether they can continue an upward trend in the ranks will depend on how potent and relevant rain ends up becoming within the metagame.

from UR to C+: We’ve lost many Psychic-type breakers to council bans/suspect tests in the past couple months, which has given Gardevoir a lot more breathing room to fulfill a niche. Its UUPL showing has been decent, showcasing the potency of its STABs + Mystical Fire, better Speed tier than competitors like Hatterene/Primarina, and the ability to tap into its utility movepool with options like Taunt.

from UR to C: Celebi still needs some time to develop a niche, but has newfound worth following the consecutive bans of Latias, Victini, and Alakazam. Its potency and set versatility are definitely worth a rank, though whether it can climb up the ranks will depend on the identity it seems to create for itself in the coming weeks.

Thanks for reading and for your patience this week! I'll implement these changes as I post this and plan on finishing the second half of this update (this will include drops and discussion points) two days from now at the latest. Stay tuned ~

 

[Hilomilo]

Here are our drops! For anyone interested in seeing how our VR team ended up voting on each change and/or the overall slate we voted on, click here for our voting chart. We have a general VR team though who specifically votes may vary from time to time based on who decides to abstain from voting on a certain slate. Enjoy~

from A+ to A: Amoonguss is alternating ranks with Tangrowth yet again due to being a bit less equipped to take on the specific makeup of this metagame. Tangrowth’s capacity to make progress with Knock Off and utilize coverage options like Earthquake or Rock Slide can be really nice for keeping up pressure, whereas Amoonguss can struggle to counteract various factors in the meta that can abuse its passive nature once it uses Spore, dislikes the influx in Substitute Raikou usage, and has also seen more Pokemon running Safety Goggles to disregard its status moves.

from A+ to A: The Pokemon Krookodile could revenge kill as a scarfer are either no longer in the tier or no longer as good, which also doesn’t pair well with the current presences of Pokemon like Buzzwole and Tangrowth. Rocks sets are still pretty great utility, though the need for Krookodile in the builder is not dire enough for a spot in A+ anymore.

from A to A-: Mamoswine has an excellent wallbreaking prowess and has even improved on paper with Skarmory gone, but it struggles to actually tap into its potential as much as a spot in A would suggest. Its beyond poor defensive utility can really hold it back, and Diggersby is also rising as competition capable of more easily handing some Ice Shard resists like Keldeo with its own STAB priority, as well as the likes of Buzzwole/Celesteela with +2 Fire Punch. For now, the two are best represented in one rank together.

from A- to B+: Chansey’s passiveness can often prevent it from keeping up momentum or pressure that well at all, which has made it a difficult fit in many cases despite its gargantuan bulk. Stall is also not particularly amazing right now which further limits its splashability.

from A- to B+: The support Jirachi offers with moves like Healing Wish is enough to prevent it from dropping below B+, though its general utility isn’t on par with that of a Pokemon deserving of the A ranks right now. It doesn’t have a typing or support movepool that yields particularly strong matchups against most top tier threats, especially with new additions like Aegislash and Moltres being fairly popular.

from B+ to B: Crawdaunt doesn’t bring anything defensively and can’t make the progress it wants to as a very slow breaker in such a fast-paced metagame. Despite its fierce damage output, the tier simply has no shortage of Aqua Jet-resistant Pokemon to overwhelm it while Buzzwole developing into a fine presence is also of no help to it.

from B to B-: Quagsire’s only use is on stall teams which simply aren’t that good right now. The specificity of its niche and its preferred archetype’s recent meh-ness are worth a small drop at this rate.

from B to B-: Scolipede’s uses in the metagame are pretty much constricted to offenses as either a suicide lead or sweeper, though it isn’t close to being the best at either role. The likes of Buzzwole and Celesteela can easily combat its STABs and coverage, while lead sets have Mew and the abundance of other available Spikes setters to compete with.

from B to C: Mimikyu sees a pretty huge drop due to Swords Dance Aegislash giving it a ton of competition for a slot on most offenses. Disguise gives it enough grounds for a rank yet, while decent Speed and Fairy STAB are also neat tools, but overall it is definitely a fringe pick at this point.

from B- to C: Ditto has really only seen usage as a pick on stall, which at this point in the metagame does not justify a spot in B-. It’s dropping two subranks to reflect that its niche is extremely specific at this stage.

from B- to C: Ribombee already occupied a rather specific niche as a Webs setter, though at this point it isn’t a super preferable option given the better utility other Pokemon can provide. A Fairy-typing and better Speed tier than Noivern is interesting on paper, but Ribombee hasn’t been able to work that into a steady offensive niche in this metagame given its many other drawbacks.

from B- to UR: Doublade can no longer carve a niche with Aegislash in the tier and its general inability to reliably check most top threats. It frankly has no realistic application in the metagame and is being unranked due to that.

from C+ to C: A niche pick on a niche archetype, Pyukumuku is not nearly splashable or common enough to even be represented in C+. With applications that are more team-specific than ever, it really only makes sense in C.

from C to UR: The C ranks have been cleaned out a bit, with the listed Pokemon no longer having places on the VR. With Scizor being so dominant and splashable, Durant is way too hard to justify. Glastrier is so weighed down by its typing and Speed that it mandates extremely tight support to work in most cases. Golurk is a threatening breaker but just isn’t easily justifiable over other Ghost- and Ground-type options. Kabutops no longer occupies a niche as a physical breaker on Rain teams with Barraskewda outperforming it. Palossand is bad. Porygon-Z is another Pokemon that mandates way too much team support for it to be a worthwhile pick in most scenarios due to its frailty. Vileplume’s niches over other bulky Grass-types are generally not enough for it to avoid being outclassed.

I also have discussion points ready, but will be putting them in a hide box so this post doesn't get overly long. Check them out below:

Discussion Points

Primarina A -> A+: Primarina has high value as both a breaker and a Pokemon capable of pivoting in on Keldeo decently with its various sets. Additionally, it offers a breaking presence that many people argue rivals even Keldeo’s in terms of its prowess, doing a number against popular Pokemon like Noivern and AV Tangrowth. Its physical frailty and low Speed are obvious marks against it, however, and are important in analyzing its place in the tier.

Rhyperior A- -> A: Despite Zeraora’s departure, Rhyperior has sustained strong applications as a rocker. It offers an underrated offensive presence that can be very hard to pivot into, checks the likes of Rotom-H and Moltres, and can force trades with trending threats like Thundurus/Lycanroc/Aegislash. It certainly brings a lot of value, though its susceptibility to Keldeo and various rising Electric-types, like Rotom-W and Raikou, also must be noted.

Reuniclus B+ -> B: A decision that the ranking team was fairly split on and should be opened up for community-wide discussion, Reuniclus is in a bit of an odd spot. CM sets suffer a lot of competition from the increasingly potent Galarian Slowbro and aren’t done any favors by Scizor’s stranglehold over the tier. However, through the unique niche of Magic Guard and the exploration of its Assault Vest set, Reuniclus could still carve a niche worth B+.

Milotic B -> B+: Milotic has grown into a genuine part of the metagame without Slowking to compete with. As Keldeo surges, Chandelure and Aegislash persist as strong picks, and special attackers like Salamence and rain mons benefit from Slowking leaving, it’s proven to improve its claim as a pivot and special sponge. However, it can struggle to keep up with the surge of several Electric-types, and may also just need more general usage to rise.

Obstagoon B -> B+: Obstagoon has always been a potent breaker but is especially nice lately for the utility its typing can actually offer in some cases, like in matchups against Aegislash or Mew. It also appreciates the departure of one of its main nuisances in Skarmory, though it does still have evident struggles with Pokemon like Buzzwole, Rhyperior, and faster Fighting-types.

Necrozma B -> B-/C+: Necrozma hasn’t really created an identity for itself in the DLC2 metagame and could drop to reflect its low usage/lack of proven worth. It has plenty potential with Calm Mind, Meteor Beam, and Dragon Dance all being compelling options, but has yet to use them in a widespread fashion which brings its general applicability into question.

Metagross UR -> C: Without Skarmory, the tier doesn’t have a particularly large amount of sturdy Steel-types, which is where Metagross could come in, forcing trades with its great bulk and offensive potential. It has a lot of interesting niches between the customizability of its physical and supportive movepools and its ability to keep up pressure better than many other Steel-types. However, many prevalent threats pose as obstacles for it and it isn’t particularly proven, so a more extensive discussion on whether to rank it is probably in order.

That concludes our update. Thanks for your patience these past few days! I'll have the OP updated very shortly and look forward to getting back to regular discussion in this thread. Be kind and happy posting!

 

[Monky25]

You already knew this post was coming not too long after the update, but like usual I'm gonna drop my thoughts on the discussion points and VR changes. Overall it was a solid update, kudos to the VR team for a job well done like always. I'm glad to be getting back to some discussion on this new meta as well as excited for the analyses opening up again soon. Now, time for my incredibly genius and valuable thoughts on the VR and what changes could happen.

to A+, agree: Prim is hella dangerous right now. With lots of its opposition going away, it has become an absolute demon to face. Specs sets are as dangerous as ever, while Sub+CM sets absolutely go ham and can 6-0 a team in the right matchup. It is able to answer top tiers like kommo-o, salamence, keldeo, buzzwole, and moltres due to its natural bulk and typing, and can overall be customized with other sets like RestTalk to fulfill a more defensive role. I absolutely support a rise to A+.

to A, agree: Rhyperior has solidified itself as the bets rocker in the tier, shown by its tour usage. With solid rock and high natural bulk, it can take heavy hits and dish out attacks in return with its powerful edgequake combo. It is also really customizable in its last slot, being able to run all sorts of moves like protect, swords dance, toxic, heat crash, and megahorn. It checks the electric types like thundurus and heattom, both moltres and galarian moltres, and the top tier Salamence. Despite a weakeness to common pokemon like keldeo, I think rhyp has performed well beyond its rank and earn a spot in the A ranking.

to B, agree: This kinda mid ngl. I thought it should've dropped a long time ago once the grassy seed sweeper trend died out, but yeah reuni is really just whatever. Glowbro does the CM set so much better and while magic guard and AV future sight are certainly solid, they aren't anything too impressive. Rising stars like aegislash, chandelure, zarude, and diggersby also give it trouble. Still, its an underrated threat that fits in with the B rankings, no lower.

to B-/C+, disagree: I think this guy has underrated potential. Meteor beam and other setup sets are pretty dangerous and with prism armor, under screens it sports some incredible bulk allowing it to set up multiple times. Psychic +fire coverage is also really nice in threatening staples like buzzwole, scizor, kommo-o, and keldeo. I think necrozma is fine where it is, though if it HAD to drop it would be B- because C+ is just disrespectful.

to B+, agree: The above post says it all, milotic has risen up to be a defensive water pivot being able to soft check things like aegislash, chandy, and keldeo. With reliable recovery, a slow pivot move in flip turn, and other utility options like haze or toxic, milotic has put in work on tons of teams and overall has helped fill the void left by slowking. Despite the surge of electric types milotic has still become a solid part of the meta as seen in tours, and is worth the rise to B+

to B+, disagree: Its a really good breaker, but it has an awkward speed tier, being outspeed and KOd by staples like keldeo, mence, lycanroc-D, and thundurus. In addition, its defensive typing doesn't do it any favors other than beat subtoxic aegislash and the rise in fairies and buzzwole doesn't help it at all. It has its merits but B+ is not where it belongs.

to C, agree: heck yes metagross should absolutely get ranked! It has great defensive merits as a steel, being able to trade with many top threats like keldeo, mence, and thundurus, while offensive agility weakness policy sets are to not be underestimated. It has a vast variety of move options like thunder punch, grass knot, ice punch, stealth rock, zen headbutt, making it unpredictable as well. It has a great matchup against the rising fairy types and overall has a lot of merits being a non passive defensive steel. I can see it even being C+ rather than C, but yeah rank this mon.
Now, here are some of my own nominations as well

to A+: Keldeo in S rank was a bit of an overreaction to it, and many players are just realizing this. I've never really been a big proponent of keldeo to S, its a top threat that belongs in A+ for sure but def not S. Its easily abuseable STAB combo means you have to be on par with your predictions or you suffer the cost of being locked out into the wrong move. Furthermore, the meta has adapted. We have seen the rise of checks like noivern, raikou, thundurus, starmie, and azelf who all outspeed and force out keldeo, while other checks like azumarill and gyara also can threaten it. Just look at victim of the week, we have THIRTEEN CHECKS AND COUNTERS to keldeo, and thats just the tip of the iceberg with many more things like AV reuni, mence, scarf zarude, milotic, and AV tang missing who can also check it. Keldeo is a top 5 pokemon in my eyes and an amazing threat, but S is too high and I believe it can go back down to A+ due to the myraid of answers it has and the way the meta has adapted to it.

to B-: Actually fuck this mon. Seriously, its literal dogshit why hasn't it dropped to RU yet. Tenta is one of those Pokemon that try to check top threats but fails to do so. Its inability to make progress with its attacks and superior competition from other waters makes it tough to go by. The dragons shit on it, electrics shit on it, grounds shit on it, hell even stuff its supposed to check like keldeo and prima beat it with either coverage or just the fact that tenta cant do shit back. Physical attackers nail it and its lack of reliable recovery makes it hard to use over Pokemon like milotic. Sure, it trades with stuff like chandy and special aegi, but judging from the limited ladder use and lack of tour use shows that tenta faces too much competition to be worth a use. With superior defensive waters, poisons, and hazard removers in the tier, tenta is not worth using at all and should go down to B- due to all the other things in B rank being far better.

to B-: This guy rose, and he should drop again. The issue is that even though stuff that beat it rose, new stuff takes their place and thus nullifies the reason it rose in the first place. Electrics have surged in the absence of zeraora, all being capable to threating togekiss. Duskroc, rhyperior, and nihilego are rock types that have grown in popularity over time that beat kiss, while scizor is as best as ever and can take down togekiss with ease. Other threats like Glowbro, primarina, keldeo, and chandelure also scare off kiss from doing its role on teams. I don't see how it is better at all in the new meta with better fairy types like sylveon and prima around, and I think it should go back down to B- to reflect how it hasn't improved at all.

That's all folks! If you agree or disagree with any of my noms feel free to share it down below. I'm glad to be starting up discussion again and I'll see you in my next post!

 

[romanji]

Thank you Hilomilo!

Hi, this is UrAverageHuman and uh, I just want to say hi Hilomilo! Great job updating the UnderUsed Viability Rankings! BUT, the people wanna know, when are you going to ban Amoonguss.

Discussion Points:

-> A+: (AGREE) Primarina loves the that Zeraora rising to OU allowed it to show it's fullest breaking potential. Sub Calm Mind Primarina is also an excellent check to Choice Specs Keldeo, one of the most threatening Pokemon since the April shifts, though it has to worry about the rise of AV Tangrowth.

-> B+: (AGREE) Obstagoon, much like Primarina, loves many faster Pokemon such as Zeraora and Alakazam leaving, along side one of its best counters in Skarmory. It is also one of my favorite checks to SubToxic Aegislash while still having the great offensive presence.

-> A: (DISAGREE) Though it is a fantastic check to Rotom-H and new face Moltres, with Zeraora rising to, Rhyperior lost one it's main targets. it also despises the increasing prominence of Primarina, Keldeo, and Tangrowth. Rising star Raikou carrying Scald does not do any favors to Rhyperior whatsoever.

Personal Nomination:

-> A+ to S: Due to Kommo-o's extremely colorful movepool, teams have to have certain game plans for each set. There are different checks and counters to each set. Sylveon and Primarina would not worry much about Clangorous Soul, but an offensive set with Poison Jab can lure them in and 2HKO them.

-> A to A-: Nidoqueen has many things not going her way in the metagame, the rise offensive Water-types such as Keldeo and Primarina are not helping it, as well as being threatened by common offensive Pokemon such as Mamoswine. It also faces competition from other offensive Stealth Rockers such as Kommo-o, Krookodile, and Rhyperior. It does appreciate that Alakazam is gone, so that would prevent Nidoqueen from falling further.

 

[mushamu]

As someone who has been playing the tier a decent amount recently I would like to bring up Mew to be S ranked. Mew is one of the best Pokemon in the tier as of right now due to its incredible flexibility which allows it to serve a variety of roles, making it excellent glue for any team. You have common utility sets with Spikes which are generally very good to exert pressure, especially since Mew gets Knock Off to punish Heavy Duty Boots users alongside setting hazards. Defensive Mew serves as a blanket check to many Pokemon such as Nidoqueen, Salamence, Kommo-o, outside of setting hazards and can generate momentum using Teleport using its neutral typing and good bulk. Mew can also fit on variants of hyper offense as either a sweeper or a hazards lead. The bottom line is that Mew has always been to me one of the most consistent Pokemon building wise in the current metagame and it is pretty good at whatever it does; there's a good reason its usage is incredibly high right now in UUPL and I definitely think it is better than the other Pokemon it shares its rank with which are more one dimensional.

Here are some replays with Mew from recent tournament play which I think show how effective it is:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-555454 - me vs TSR from UU Masters where Mew catches Moltres off guard by tricking Choice Scarf - Knock Off would have been fine here since Moltres as a Defog user vs a Rhyperior team is not great once Heavy Duty Boots go away, but hypothetically tricking Choice Scarf onto something like Rotom-W would be great since Rhyperior can set Stealth Rock more freely now or just for stopping random setup in general.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-555484 - me vs Star from UUPL where Mew put in some work in the beginning with Spikes. Future Sight + Teleport made sure that I couldn't go into Buzzwole as easily early on to check Zarude, therefore breaking the sequence.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-555181 - TDK vs Sacri from UUPL where Spikes Mew found many setup opportunities thanks to its good bulk and eventually provided the hazards that overwhelmed Sacri's team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1321738441-4yqqxgp3ku9k8vgke0g39dk13sznuq9pw - TSR vs Lord Crucify from UU Open where Nasty Plot Mew puts a decent chunk of work as a breaker - it gets access to a lot of coverage and decent bulk + Softboiled makes it really reliable as setup. (I got permission from TSR to use this replay.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-555070 - Adaam vs Avarice from UUPL where standard lead Mew puts in a lot of work.

TL;DR Mew is great glue, fits on a lot of teams, and deserves to be ranked alongside Keldeo and Scizor as one of the best Pokemon in the current metagame. The possibilities are endless.

 

[Lily]

Hi just as like, a general thing, if a mon literally just rose a subrank or two then please don't immediately nominate it to drop. It got voted there for a reason, and odds are that the voters don't disagree with the decision literal days after it was made. Give it some time, gather some evidence and go from there.

To touch on discussion points rlly fast, Prim is broken, better than Keldeo, should be A+. Rhyperior is really really good an should be A, very reliable rocker that's not passive at all and completely blanks a lot of trendy stuff like the oven. Reuni sucks kinda, AV sees some use but I've always been a massive hater of it & CM is outclassed entirely by the extremely broken Glowbro with its one niche being that it beats Glowbro in the 1v1. Milo is something I'm indifferent on, it was probably B+ in Zam/Tini meta and I'm sure it's still fine but being a fat water that's useless against Keldeo seems awkward. The Goon is impossible to fit on teams without specifically building around it but it has a tendency to get a KO every time with stuff like Bisharp and Terrakion gone, B+ seems good. I voted for Necrozma to drop but it's actually good on cheese and that's getting better I guess so it can stay B but I don't really care if it drops. Literally who is Metagross

Also Mew to S is something I still disagree with, idt it has as much influence as like Scizor or even Primarina but maybe that's just me, and a lot of its sets struggle from passiveness (the spikes sets into hatterene is the worst). I wouldn't be opposed to S- for it though.

 

[Twilight]

to B-: Actually fuck this mon. Seriously, its literal dogshit why hasn't it dropped to RU yet. Tenta is one of those Pokemon that try to check top threats but fails to do so. Its inability to make progress with its attacks and superior competition from other waters makes it tough to go by. The dragons shit on it, electrics shit on it, grounds shit on it, hell even stuff its supposed to check like keldeo and prima beat it with either coverage or just the fact that tenta cant do shit back. Physical attackers nail it and its lack of reliable recovery makes it hard to use over Pokemon like milotic. Sure, it trades with stuff like chandy and special aegi, but judging from the limited ladder use and lack of tour use shows that tenta faces too much competition to be worth a use. With superior defensive waters, poisons, and hazard removers in the tier, tenta is not worth using at all and should go down to B- due to all the other things in B rank being far better.

I think this is quite an exaggerated reaction to a Pokemon that honestly isn't in a bad spot right now. It helps deal with the rising usage of Primarina and Keldeo + helps soft check other things like Scizor, Buzzwole, Chandelure, Aegislash, etc. I can agree it doesn't hard wall anything well but it does what you need it to do especially thanks to its Speed tier letting it always trade health with the offensive foes it attempts to check. I disagree that it can't make progress, especially when it's good at spreading status with its STABs or just removing items with Knock Off. Other options like Haze or Toxic have their uses depending on the team's vulnerability to stuff like Kommo-o and Mew. Naturally the typings it is weak to will be problematic for it, this applies to everything so I'm not sure what you're really getting at with that comment tbh. I also fail to see how it faces competition as a remover when the only thing that really fills the same role is Washtom/Starmie(?) and they don't want to run Defog/Spin a majority of the time. Comparing it to Milotic doesn't make much sense to me either when the pool of what they check and offer differs quite vastly. If anything I'd argue Tentacruel is better than the shit sitting in B and would consider it for a rise, else keep it in B.

Other discussion points:

Rhyperior agree to a rise. Literally one of the best rockers in the tier. Has the bulk to stomach nearly everything in the tier and hit hard back.

Disagree with a rise. I think it's decent but for the most part I would rather just use a bulky Primarina, which actually helps deal with Keldeo better and can check a good proportion of the same stuff like Salamence, Chandelure, etc.

Use this, not Milotic. Would be fine with rising it.

Why though

 

[Totomon]

Discussion Points:

AGREE
to A+: Prima is incredible, I would even say that it is better than keldeo as fairy stab is just incredibly spammable by virtue of beating AV tang instead of being walled by it, and things that might check the specs set get destroyed by Sub CM (Sylveon and Moonger), It is surprisingly easy to get rolled by it and needs to be accounted for just like every other A+ mon.
Trends like Keldeo's rise and the dominance of tangrowth over amoongus benefit it heavily making it an incredible staple of SS UU.

to B: I've used reuniclus a lot, balance teams with bulu, semi-stalls, double dance sets and standard CM and after using reuni all that much I can say that it is kind of ass, 80% of the time I was just wishing I had glowbro so that I could dispose of scizor easily and magic guard isnt that valuable as spikes disappear from the metagame and glowbro can regen some damage that reuni has to manually heal which honestly makes standard CM not worth on reuni, double dance sets do have a niche over glowbro by beating other CM users and being able to completely throttle stall but that isnt enough to justify reuni on B+ with more consitent mons like conk and chansey.
(Also crits suck)

to B+: while other mons like primarina may have a better offensive presence what differentiates milotic and in my opinion makes it worthy of the B+ ranks is not only its slightly better bulk but also manual healing that helps it deal better against the likes of chandelure and aegislash, since primarina wants investment in spatk and speed it means that the slightest chip and it might be 2hko'd by specs chandy and therefore it isnt reliable counterplay over the course of the game.
By virtue of having having an instant recovery move and a move that allows it to pivot out it gives itself enough reasons to not be completely outclassed as a special wall by sylveon and therefore they should be the same rank.

to B+: Goon while a very high maintenace mon is a very scary breaker, unlike other people I think that its speed tier is honestly good, outspeeding krookodile, chandelure, the rotoms and moltres. It honestly doesnt need to be faster as it already outspeeds a bunch of mons and will find many opportunities to come in and start destroying things.
While the introduction of buzzwole might seem horrible for it, unlike other breakers like conkeldurr (which justs cries in the face of buzz) it can either give it a flame orb which just absolutely ruins it or use parting shot to pivot out into something that threatens the buff bug.
All of this combined make goon a mon worth considering that isnt at the level of fringe playstyles like sun.

DISAGREE
to A: Rhyperior is a very good rocker being able to beat deffogers like heatom and mence dont get me wrong, but it just isnt at the level of mons like moonger or chandelure, A rank mons are staples of the metagames that will do multiple things in games that they are in, rhyperior honestly is just a trade machine that beats the most common deffogers and man sometimes it can't perform that role correctly thanks to bad MU and the fact that it can get easily overwhelmed, its role isnt as valuable or versatile as other mons in that subrank and thats why I think it shouldn't rise. I do think its a top "A-" mon but not good enough for it to be A.
(Also prima, keldeo and tangrowth are top dogs so rhyperior has it more difficult)

to B-/C+: I think that this guy has some untapped potential, thanks to its typing and coverage its meteor beam set isnt completely anhilated by scizor and the growing irrelavancy of chansey in place of some other more breakable special walls only benefit necrozma further, it can also be a makeshift rocker if your teams needs one.
I honestly don't feel that strong about necrozma so idc if it drops.

to C: I mean...what? If I wanted to use a bulky rocker with a steel/psychic typing I literally would just slap a jirachi, that thing has a recovery move and at least rachi has its big ass head to flinch everyone. And jirachi isnt even a good mon! so I really don't see a reason to rank metagross. If we are going to rank a mon at least it should be able to deal with some of the better mons, which metagross doesnt do


NOMS and a small tangent
to A-: Therian forme is way worse than incarnate in this new metagame, the electric immunity is less valuable without zeraora here but what really seals thundurus-t as worse its the speed tier, being forced out by keldeo instead of the other way around is just HUGE and therefore merits thundy-t to go down to A-, even with its higher special attack regular thundy still has enough power to break past the most common walls and as I previously stated as mons like chansey are on the downhill, things that break them go down with them.
(All of this not counting that regular thundy can use a utility set making it more versatile)


3/4 of our A+ ranks have a bunch of arguments on why they should be S however I personally feel like having a bunch of S mons is kind of against what S rank means and while mew, kommo-o and mence are very good and versatile I feel like they aren't as metagame defining as scizor is and therefore I dont believe that any of them should rise.

 

[Patricick]

I might be a little biased (based), but Tapu Bulu is definitely underrated in the ranking right now. B+ is just not representative of it's value in the meta right now. I've been playing quite a bit of UU recently, and Bulu has been a pivotal member in almost every battle.

Tapu Bulu from B+ to A-/A

(I would personally put it at A but I realize that's a little extreme)

My boy Bulu is ridiculously versatile, in set and in play. It's stats are perfectly distributed to let it do anything from Choice Band attacker, Life Orb SD sweeper, Specially defensive support, longevity focused pivot, or assault vest tank. name a role and he can probably do it. His expansive movepool is a massive boon in allowing it to do so much, and grassy terrain is a game changer. Even uninvested, it's horn leeches and wood hammers are monstrous, essentially always receiving a life orb boost alongside it's massive attack. It's natural bulk is top notch even on offensive sets, and he has fantastic longevity alongside that bulk thanks to grassy terrain and horn leech recovery.

Aside from his natural qualities, the meta right now is really favoring him. Both Keldeo and Prim are on the rise as two of the best in the tier, and Bulu preys on them like nothing else. Assualt vest Bulu with max spe def investment is never 2HKOed by specs Moonblast, takes maximum of 41% from a specs air slash from Keldeo, and OHKOs both with a horn leech that completely undoes any damage taken. There is no better check to either of them, especially Keldeo, as unlike AV tangrowth, Bulu resists both stabs while also having better special bulk and being much stronger with just as much longevity. Even when burned, Wood Hammer always OHKOs Keldeo and has an 87.5% chance to do so against Prim. Scald fishing won't stop the bull. Offensive AV Bulu is no longer a true counter to either of them, but is still an extremely strong check.

Even uninvested in bulk, Bulu tanks any attack from the two and OHKO's back with a horn leech if you need an emergency check. Prim in particular is slower then Bulu, so it always has to switch out because he's so strong that any coverage move for a predicted switch 2HKOs anyways.



Bandulu in particular is insane, his strength is simply ridiculous. Through things like 2HKOing Shield form Aegislash with a resisted Wood Hammer, straight up OHKOing Thunderous through the resist, killing Keldeo, who is by no means frail, 4 times over, doing 50% to AV Tangrowth through a resist, and doing up to 40% to Scizor through a 4x resist, Bandulu proves itself as dummy strong. You cannot out defense Bulu. You resist it, or you die.

Even things that should be a no brainer answer for Bandulu can't switch in because of his ridiculous power. Amoonguss, who 4x resists grass and packs 4x super effective stab, can't switch in because of Zen Headbutt. Scizor, with it's 4x resistance to grass and super effective priority, is afraid of close combat, and same for Celesteela. If your predictions are on point, and you pack the right coverage move, nothing can switch in safely. Bandulu getting a free switch is essentially just forcing your opponent to pick what dies. Even something that would seem like a perfect switch, like Defensive Tangrowth, loses to a coverage option, in this case band Megahorn.

On a more personal note, I don't exactly hide that Bulu is my favorite pokemon, and in fact seeing that he was in UU is what made me pick up the tier, but I can honestly say that he has been the mvp of every single team I've used. I haven't had a game where he sat in the back, being a non factor in the game. In every game I've been in that I can remember, (like over 50 games) he is absolutely pivotal in the match. Often, the opponent has to win the 50 50 on switching into a check vs staying in to not immediately lose the game.
That's specifically talking about Bandulu, but AV Bulu has a similar quality. It gets numerous free switchs because of his bulk, and since the opponent naturally assumes band, you can consistently get surprise KOs. I smile every time the opponent sends in a Rotom-Heat on a wood hammer just to lose the oven to a stone edge. Regardless of set, Bulu puts in work game in and game out, consistently pulling it's weight.

On a final note, look at the B+ tier. Can you really tell me that Chansey, Reuniclus, and Jirachi are on the same level as Bulu? Bulu is just better then almost everything else in the tier. A- is much more representative of Bulu's true worth then it's current tiering, although I would argue for A, but I'm probably a little biased.

Anyways, thanks for reading, and regardless of tier placement, I think we can all agree that Bulu and Buzzwole emanate raw chad energy that the tier simply cannot handle.