Adaam
إسمي جف
Hello everyone. With the recent lifting of the low tier old-gen tier lock, I want to address everyone's not-so-favorite topic of SM UU stall. Towards the end of SM's lifespan, stall grew to be a behemoth of a playstyle. Despite relatively infrequent usage in tournaments, it yielded insane results and winrates. People would use "stall" as a synonym for "free win" when prepping. Players would attempt to prepare for it by slapping on a breaker, only to be outlasted after taking out maybe one or two Pokemon by the infamous AloBlissQuag core. In this post, I will demonstrate stall's devastating power in SM through its winrates in high-level tournaments and by explaining its theory.
Tournament Usage
For each game, I will use 'W' if the staller won, 'L' for a loss.
Miscellaneous replay I found for UU classic Adaam vs pif. Pif uses a Quagsire-less stall that shows how versatile the style is. NP Celebi seems like a threat, but its hilariously walled by Pyukumuku of all things.
This is a ~62% winrate for stall from replays I dug up, with many losses caused by players making misplays with respect to Celebi and M-Altaria. Pearl for example rocked a near 100% winrate with his team, and a lot of people tried using it and threw a win away. Yes, if you Scald an Altaria you're probably going to lose, and if you don't know the Toxic sequence vs Celebi you also will lose. However, relying on someone competent to throw with stall is not a reliable way to beat it.
Some losses were by hard cteams to specific stall builds such as the Virizion replay. Now imagine if soulgazer brought Altaria stall? Leru would have been helpess, with brings up my next point. Stall is extremely versatile. The flagship build is Pearl's Aero/Cuno stall, but there are many viable variants. To quote an old post I made here:
My Proposal
SM UU council voted on what to do about stall. Here were the results:
We were split on what to do in an attempt to only nerf the playstyle by testing Alomomola and not Blissey. As a result, nothing happened. I do not want to make this mistake again. It is obvious that Blissey is the cornerstone of stall. Blissey walls a massive portion of the metagame, provides Stealth Rock, Heal Bell support, absorbs Toxic with Natural Cure, and is surprisingly hard to switch into with Toxic + Stoss. Blissey is the best Stall Pokemon, and thus should be suspect tested.
What exactly does Blissey do?
In terms of what it walls, let's check the VR thread. Using Blissey counters Latias, Hydreigon, Primarina, Amoonguss, Celebi (somewhat), Manectric, Slowbro (without Rest), Alomomola, Empoleon, Gengar (this is a stalemate but you outstall it), Rotom-H, Hippowdon, Starmie, Mew, Tentacruel, Kyurem, Moltres, Nidos without Superpower, Suicune, Nihilego, Volcanion, Houndoom-Mega, Blastoise-Mega, and many more. It also has enough physical defense to 1v1 Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix (without curse), Krook, can Toxic unboosted Mimikyu, can Toxic Aero and softboiled spam, can Toxic NP Infernape if it hasn't boosted, and generally trade with a threat in emergency scenarios. I'd go as far and say Blissey would be unstoppable if we didn't have Scizor, which is one of the laughably few mons that can switch into Toxic and Seismic Toss due to its immunity + Roost + Swords Dance. Seriously, try and think of other Pokemon that can. As mentioned before, Blissey is also a status sponge for stall, taking on many Toxic users. This is massive as PP stalling Heal Bell becomes such a tall task when the stall user has no need to ever click it.
Won't banning Blissey make stall unviable?
Maybe, but this is not something we should be concerned with. Never have we suspected the 2nd or 3rd best mon on a particular playstyle in an attempt to preserve the whole thing. We banned Drizzle, which made Rain literally unusable, instead of targeting the 2nd or 3rd best abusers. We banned Mega Venusaur, the cornerstone of SM UU balance, and now balance is quite awful. And if we ever decide that SM UU Spikes HO is too powerful, would we suspect something like Mimkyu? Or the actual cornerstone Pokemon like M-Sharpedo? Testing Alomomola or even Quagsire/Pyuk is dancing around the real issue that is Blissey, and I implore everyone else reading this to agree.
Conclusion
Stall is obscene and the best and most consistent playstyle in the tier. The only reason it isn't spammed is because of the negative connotation it has, and also because it's just lame to play in the tournaments SM UU is still played in (mainly subforum PLs). It almost always draws a great MU, and even in "bad MUs" the stall user has many outs and often needs to outlast one or two Pokemon before winning with AloBliss. Let's not make the same mistake twice and do something about stall this time
Tournament Usage
For each game, I will use 'W' if the staller won, 'L' for a loss.
UUPL IX
TDK vs robjr - L. Required a Thunder miss turn 42 for rob to have a chance despite using stallbreakers like CM Coba and Superpower Nidoking.
TDK vs mncmt - L. TDK is cheeks and tossed a 100% win turn 34 by sacking Gligar instead of Articuno to a NP Recover Celebi. Had he l2ped and made the correct play, he won easily as Gligar would wall the CB Infernape for the remainder of the game.
Sacri vs CBU - W. Not even close, Sacri lost on preview.
Finch vs robjr - L. Required tough 50/50 with Pursuit on the Celebi to win
Me vs Hs - W. Another beatdown where the person being stalled had no chance on preview
Gondra vs rozes - W. In this game vivalospride stalled Barclay. Despite facing Future Sight + AV Shao, a theoretical awful MU, stall wins.
rozes vs Bushtush - L. No fucking clue how Venomoth ended on this win screen, I will admit this was a tough mu. Bush's team, however, hard loses to any Pyukumuku variants of stall.
UUPL VIII
Christo vs Empo - W. Another nightmare MU for stall that it finds a war to win. NP Azelf, DD Gatr, and Facade M-Altaria are not enough to win.
Sage vs Jaajgko - W. Not close.
sjneider vs Empo - L. Empo makes a misplay and Scalds an unrevealed Altaria. Gets swept by Facade (F).
UUPL VII
Poek vs watashi - L. Hard cteam with CM E-ball Reuniclus with Z-Psychic.
TDK vs ict - W. Easy win for Carson (stalling again classic)
TDK vs Freeroamer - W. Another cruise victory and also fuck Carson my god.
Accelgor vs Shiba - W. LMAO beef battle?? But this was destruction as to be expected from stall
vivalospride vs McMeghan - L. SubSD Decidueye was used to hard cteam Roro, who was using semi-stall exclusively up to this point.
robjr vs Pearl - L. Lost off a Quagsire crit.
Amaroq vs Osh - L. Not sure how Osh ever won this game but he played very well and this case I will concede.
TDK vs robjr - L. Required a Thunder miss turn 42 for rob to have a chance despite using stallbreakers like CM Coba and Superpower Nidoking.
TDK vs mncmt - L. TDK is cheeks and tossed a 100% win turn 34 by sacking Gligar instead of Articuno to a NP Recover Celebi. Had he l2ped and made the correct play, he won easily as Gligar would wall the CB Infernape for the remainder of the game.
Sacri vs CBU - W. Not even close, Sacri lost on preview.
Finch vs robjr - L. Required tough 50/50 with Pursuit on the Celebi to win
Me vs Hs - W. Another beatdown where the person being stalled had no chance on preview
Gondra vs rozes - W. In this game vivalospride stalled Barclay. Despite facing Future Sight + AV Shao, a theoretical awful MU, stall wins.
rozes vs Bushtush - L. No fucking clue how Venomoth ended on this win screen, I will admit this was a tough mu. Bush's team, however, hard loses to any Pyukumuku variants of stall.
UUPL VIII
Christo vs Empo - W. Another nightmare MU for stall that it finds a war to win. NP Azelf, DD Gatr, and Facade M-Altaria are not enough to win.
Sage vs Jaajgko - W. Not close.
sjneider vs Empo - L. Empo makes a misplay and Scalds an unrevealed Altaria. Gets swept by Facade (F).
UUPL VII
Poek vs watashi - L. Hard cteam with CM E-ball Reuniclus with Z-Psychic.
TDK vs ict - W. Easy win for Carson (stalling again classic)
TDK vs Freeroamer - W. Another cruise victory and also fuck Carson my god.
Accelgor vs Shiba - W. LMAO beef battle?? But this was destruction as to be expected from stall
vivalospride vs McMeghan - L. SubSD Decidueye was used to hard cteam Roro, who was using semi-stall exclusively up to this point.
robjr vs Pearl - L. Lost off a Quagsire crit.
Amaroq vs Osh - L. Not sure how Osh ever won this game but he played very well and this case I will concede.
SPL X
soulgazer vs Leru - L. Required a hard cteam involving SubSD Virizion, which is unviable in every MU besides cteaming Pearl stall as it is hard walled by Altaria variants.
Christo vs Lycans - W. Hard destruction off preview.
Pak vs robjr- L. Rob is helpless until Pak misplays by Scalding an unrevealed Altaria. A lot of these losses are just by inexperience with the Altaria matchup. Simply using Toxic instead of Scald is a guaranteed win.
Pearl vs HT- W. Not close
bugzinator vs Christo- L. I sound like a broken record but this is another loss simply by the stall user not knowing how to use the team. bugzi has this game won after Toxicing Celebi, but decides to sack Articuno for no reason instead of Softboiled spamming with Blissey and then trapping it with Aero.
Pearl vs Shiba- W. Not close
soulgazer vs Leru - L. Required a hard cteam involving SubSD Virizion, which is unviable in every MU besides cteaming Pearl stall as it is hard walled by Altaria variants.
Christo vs Lycans - W. Hard destruction off preview.
Pak vs robjr- L. Rob is helpless until Pak misplays by Scalding an unrevealed Altaria. A lot of these losses are just by inexperience with the Altaria matchup. Simply using Toxic instead of Scald is a guaranteed win.
Pearl vs HT- W. Not close
bugzinator vs Christo- L. I sound like a broken record but this is another loss simply by the stall user not knowing how to use the team. bugzi has this game won after Toxicing Celebi, but decides to sack Articuno for no reason instead of Softboiled spamming with Blissey and then trapping it with Aero.
Pearl vs Shiba- W. Not close
Smogon Snake Draft
Amane Misa vs Adaam - L. I get outplayed by Krook Pursuit trapping Rotom twice and losing to Toge as a result.
Amane Misa vs Corckscrew - W. Not close, features a new Muk + Pyuk variant.
Soulwind vs Christo - W. Not close and it shows how Pearl's stall will win in the NP Celebi MU when you play the sequence correctly.
UU Snake
avarice vs vivalospride - W. Features no Alo Stall muscling through a "tough" my against Lass HO.
Santu vs Xiri - W. Not close
suapah vs basaninho - W. Not close
Amane Misa vs Adaam - L. I get outplayed by Krook Pursuit trapping Rotom twice and losing to Toge as a result.
Amane Misa vs Corckscrew - W. Not close, features a new Muk + Pyuk variant.
Soulwind vs Christo - W. Not close and it shows how Pearl's stall will win in the NP Celebi MU when you play the sequence correctly.
UU Snake
avarice vs vivalospride - W. Features no Alo Stall muscling through a "tough" my against Lass HO.
Santu vs Xiri - W. Not close
suapah vs basaninho - W. Not close
Pearl vs kingofcrimea - W. Hardest stall cteam I have ever seen losing to Pearl stall.
Pearl vs Flawless Nazgul - W. Not close
Pearl vs Xiri - W. Not close
Pearl vs Xiri again - W. Not close
Pearl vs Flawless Nazgul - W. Not close
Pearl vs Xiri - W. Not close
Pearl vs Xiri again - W. Not close
Miscellaneous replay I found for UU classic Adaam vs pif. Pif uses a Quagsire-less stall that shows how versatile the style is. NP Celebi seems like a threat, but its hilariously walled by Pyukumuku of all things.
This is a ~62% winrate for stall from replays I dug up, with many losses caused by players making misplays with respect to Celebi and M-Altaria. Pearl for example rocked a near 100% winrate with his team, and a lot of people tried using it and threw a win away. Yes, if you Scald an Altaria you're probably going to lose, and if you don't know the Toxic sequence vs Celebi you also will lose. However, relying on someone competent to throw with stall is not a reliable way to beat it.
Some losses were by hard cteams to specific stall builds such as the Virizion replay. Now imagine if soulgazer brought Altaria stall? Leru would have been helpess, with brings up my next point. Stall is extremely versatile. The flagship build is Pearl's Aero/Cuno stall, but there are many viable variants. To quote an old post I made here:
pif further elaborates on how versatile stall can be, showcasing multiple different teams he made and dominated UU with. Stall really becomes mind boggling to handle once you step back and realize more stall teams exist than Pearl's one team he made 3 years ago. If you expect to be stalled by someone, you not only have to try and cover all possible variants, but you also need to ensure you aren't weak to any normal team. This is an impossible task, and it's gotten to the point where people have given up in preparing for stall and hoping they don't face it.While these are the most popular stall teams, I want to emphasize that stall is extremely malleable. Any good stall team will have AloBliss + Unaware, leaving the last 3 slots fairly open to many options. Doublade can be used to counter Z-Fight Terrakion better than Quagsire, Alolan Muk can be used to pursuit Celebi with ease, Slowbro can be added to handle NP Infernape, and so on. The point is trying to counterteam these two specific teams does not ensure that you are no longer stall weak. You might think a Choice Band Crawdaunt is enough to handle stall if you expect Pearl's team to be used, but if you run into bulky Mega Altaria your Crawdaunt is suddenly useless. You might try NP Togekiss with Alolan Muk to trap Nihilego, but a Mega Aerodactyl or Spdef Pyukumuku will ruin your day. There is not one strategy that can both break through the patented Alo/Bliss/Unaware core + any support mon the stall player might use. You are at the mercy of the team brought against you, making preparing for stall a nightmare.
My Proposal
SM UU council voted on what to do about stall. Here were the results:
We were split on what to do in an attempt to only nerf the playstyle by testing Alomomola and not Blissey. As a result, nothing happened. I do not want to make this mistake again. It is obvious that Blissey is the cornerstone of stall. Blissey walls a massive portion of the metagame, provides Stealth Rock, Heal Bell support, absorbs Toxic with Natural Cure, and is surprisingly hard to switch into with Toxic + Stoss. Blissey is the best Stall Pokemon, and thus should be suspect tested.
What exactly does Blissey do?
In terms of what it walls, let's check the VR thread. Using Blissey counters Latias, Hydreigon, Primarina, Amoonguss, Celebi (somewhat), Manectric, Slowbro (without Rest), Alomomola, Empoleon, Gengar (this is a stalemate but you outstall it), Rotom-H, Hippowdon, Starmie, Mew, Tentacruel, Kyurem, Moltres, Nidos without Superpower, Suicune, Nihilego, Volcanion, Houndoom-Mega, Blastoise-Mega, and many more. It also has enough physical defense to 1v1 Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix (without curse), Krook, can Toxic unboosted Mimikyu, can Toxic Aero and softboiled spam, can Toxic NP Infernape if it hasn't boosted, and generally trade with a threat in emergency scenarios. I'd go as far and say Blissey would be unstoppable if we didn't have Scizor, which is one of the laughably few mons that can switch into Toxic and Seismic Toss due to its immunity + Roost + Swords Dance. Seriously, try and think of other Pokemon that can. As mentioned before, Blissey is also a status sponge for stall, taking on many Toxic users. This is massive as PP stalling Heal Bell becomes such a tall task when the stall user has no need to ever click it.
Won't banning Blissey make stall unviable?
Maybe, but this is not something we should be concerned with. Never have we suspected the 2nd or 3rd best mon on a particular playstyle in an attempt to preserve the whole thing. We banned Drizzle, which made Rain literally unusable, instead of targeting the 2nd or 3rd best abusers. We banned Mega Venusaur, the cornerstone of SM UU balance, and now balance is quite awful. And if we ever decide that SM UU Spikes HO is too powerful, would we suspect something like Mimkyu? Or the actual cornerstone Pokemon like M-Sharpedo? Testing Alomomola or even Quagsire/Pyuk is dancing around the real issue that is Blissey, and I implore everyone else reading this to agree.
Conclusion
Stall is obscene and the best and most consistent playstyle in the tier. The only reason it isn't spammed is because of the negative connotation it has, and also because it's just lame to play in the tournaments SM UU is still played in (mainly subforum PLs). It almost always draws a great MU, and even in "bad MUs" the stall user has many outs and often needs to outlast one or two Pokemon before winning with AloBliss. Let's not make the same mistake twice and do something about stall this time
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