Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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The problem with this argument I see is it would leave mons like cb golurk (a mon I am unironically enjoying btw) in the A ranks, since once it’s in it has no switchins bar mandi. Much like primarina, golurk is a slow powerful breaker that’s extremely hard to switch in to, yet it requires a lot of team support to get in because of its slow speed and relative frailty. Prim also lacks the priority moves that a lot of the other breakers you’ve mentioned have, like aqua jet daunt and mach punch conk. Now I can see the appeal and how prim works, so a drop may not be in order, but I’m definitely opposed to a rise.

Btw I don’t have replays but I wanted to echo the guy who nommed golurk for the vr awhile back in the thread, poltergeist is such a good move to break with.



Completely agree w everything about pert you’ve said here, I find it to be an excellent pivot. Stab on it’s pivot move is a game changer, allowing it to significantly chip anything coming in, which in turn makes breaking defensive cores much easier.
Thanks for the comment. Goluek has a bad matchup verse common offensive Pokémon and threats like Knock of landorus, dragapult and Garchomp (the biggest 3!!!)

primarina doesn’t need support and has a favourable match up. Match up is very important in the earlier turns of a battle!

that’s the key differentiator. VR might be proportional to potential (poltergeist breaking) but I doubt it’s exclusively attached to that

it’s veryeasy to find switch ins into electric and grass attacks, poison is rare

:swampert:

also can you give me some examples of when having stab flip turn on swampert puts common switch ins into important damage thresholds?

big fan of swampert but it spends a lot of games awkwardly trying to do something when there isn’t a victini or heatran or Volcarona or whatever to check
 
Thanks for the comment. Goluek has a bad matchup verse common offensive Pokémon and threats like Knock of landorus, dragapult and Garchomp (the biggest 3!!!)

primarina doesn’t need support and has a favourable match up. Match up is very important in the earlier turns of a battle!

that’s the key differentiator. VR might be proportional to potential (poltergeist breaking) but I doubt it’s exclusively attached to that

it’s veryeasy to find switch ins into electric and grass attacks, poison is rare

:swampert:

also can you give me some examples of when having stab flip turn on swampert puts common switch ins into important damage thresholds?

big fan of swampert but it spends a lot of games awkwardly trying to do something when there isn’t a victini or heatran or Volcarona or whatever to check
I think I’ll drop the prim discussion since I think we clearly disagree on its viability.

As for swampert, flip turn with a little investment deals significantly more damage than u-turn to corv, the defogger with the best mu against it. Throughout the game it will chip it into kart range, forcing it into an awkward position where it wants to defog rocks but also wants to stay healthy to check chomp, kart, rilla, etc. It’s also slower than most defoggers, turning them into momentum fodder. I also think damp is a bit of an underrated ability, stopping a lot of ho teams in its tracks by blocking suicide leads. Just to be clear I’m not advocating for a significant rise or anything, just saying that it has a place in the meta and isn’t a thing of the past, defo doesn’t deserve to drop.
 
I think I’ll drop the prim discussion since I think we clearly disagree on its viability.

As for swampert, flip turn with a little investment deals significantly more damage than u-turn to corv, the defogger with the best mu against it. Throughout the game it will chip it into kart range, forcing it into an awkward position where it wants to defog rocks but also wants to stay healthy to check chomp, kart, rilla, etc. It’s also slower than most defoggers, turning them into momentum fodder. I also think damp is a bit of an underrated ability, stopping a lot of ho teams in its tracks by blocking suicide leads. Just to be clear I’m not advocating for a significant rise or anything, just saying that it has a place in the meta and isn’t a thing of the past, defo doesn’t deserve to drop.
Ever since gen 5, Pert has been in a bit of a limbo. Its juuuust good enough to do its job, yknow good but not like its gen 3&4 glory days (Power creep and little to no updates to it made sure of that). Yes, it needs a better ability (ehem REGEN cus hes's effing based on an axolotl) and/or reliable recovery like recover or shore up (again he's based on an AMPHIBIOUS AXOLOTL) but pert isn't completely without use. The immunity, resistances, bulk, defenses, underrate attack and now momentum creation, in my opinion will always find a definite place in a meta. Ofc, pert isn't the best def pivot out there (cus the slow twins exist) but setting rocks and coming in on deffogers (barring corv), no giga drain volc at +1, putting checks and counters on toxic timers and momentum chip are not common combos you can find in a single mon. Echoing the sentiments of julian113 , i don't think it should rise or anything like that, but imo its exactly where its suppose to be.
 
Probably beating a dead horse with this nomination, but you know what, it's a horse that deserves to be beaten until it actually happens.

:ss/(Slowking):
S ---> A+/A

Slowking just doesn't reach nearly the same level of performance that got it into S-tier anymore. I think what hurts it most is that it cannot stop the current best special attacker in the tier, :(Dragapult):, which deals a 2HKO with Shadow Ball or just U-turns out on it, but let's break down its matchup against the other top threats of the current meta:

:(Urshifu-rapid-strike):: 41.8-50.2% with Strikes, 69.5 - 82.2% with U-turn; Urshifu-RS is a Water-type which Slowking fails to wall. Granted, it can force Shifu to tread carefully around FSight, but that doesn't make it a counter, just a situational check.

:(Volcarona):: It's not an answer to Volc. Bulky variants pretty much want to see it in Preview, since it's a great opportunity to boost up to +6 in front of. Offensive variants have it rougher, but Slowking isn't a surefire stopgap to those either. It gets smoked by +2 Bug Buzz, and while Scald does deal good chip even after a QD, the only notable thing that does is put Volc in Aqua Jet range, assuming you even have Shifu on your team. And that's all assuming your Slowking is at full, because if it isn't then a mere +1 Bug Buzz does it in. Suspect test when

:(Heatran):: This sort of goes both ways. Heatran can trap it, but it leaves itself open for a potential Scald 3HKO in return. However, Heatran has one thing which Slowking doesn't have any answers for: Toxic. A badly poisoned Slowking can't do much besides pass a FuturePort or two, and Heatran is free to switch out afterwards. Overall, Slowking can check Tran, but not without worry.

:(Kyurem):: Specs Freeze-Dry. All I gotta say. The only set it does well against is Scarf, but that set is a gimmick at best.

And that's just the special attackers and/or mons with a favorable type matchup on paper; it's pointless to mention Sp. attackers like :(Tapu Koko):, :(Hydreigon): etc. that naturally have an edge over it, and at that point the only things it stops repeatedly throughout a match is :(Tapu Lele):. (:(Nidoking): too, I guess, but that thing is quickly losing relevance.)
It can't really be expected to step out of its specially defensive role either, since a great deal of the tier's physical attackers (:(zeraora):,:(Bisharp):,:(weavile):,:(Rillaboom):,:(Kartana):,:(Tyranitar):,:(Scizor): etc) eat it alive.

The other main factor in its drop is simply how predictable it is. This thing has exactly one set, and your opponents can play around it expecting that set and be rewarded for that. There really isn't any room for innovation or surprise with Slowking, and when a pokemon with a static set sits in a shifting meta for long enough, that set becomes stale. (I did see someone run Dragon Tail over Slack Off to phaze out bulky Volc, which is pretty cool, but if you're willing to drop your recovery and rely purely on Regenerator, then let me introduce you to a lovely little thing called :(Slowking-Galar):, which sports AV and an immunity to the aforementioned Toxic, while providing Sight support almost as well. Slowking-K needs its recovery to consistently check things like Lele.)

All of this isn't to say that Slowking is a bad choice. It isn't, and setting aside its walling capabilities, it performs its role as a FuturePort pivot that can take just enough damage to pass the FSight admirably. However, that on its own isn't enough to catapult Slowking into S-tier; it got there on accord of being extremely tough to crack offensively in addition to FuturePort, but the new rising stars of the meta just don't give it much room to breathe in that aspect.

Overall, this Pokemon simply does not measure up to how consistently threatening (:(Dragapult):) or splashable (:(Landorus-Therian):) its current S-tier peers are, and its inability to be a dedicated long-term check to the majority (not all, but the majority) of the tier's Special attacking threats leads me to believe it should drop a step down the tiering rung.

Other nominations I agree with:

:(Heatran): A+ ---> S
:(Weavile): A ---> A+
:(Volcarona): A ---> A+
:(Slowking-Galar): B+ ---> A-/A
 
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IPF

sundown
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Said I'd make a post here in this post (read if you have the time), so here it is. Thoughts are based on my observations in WCoP and my time spent on ladder this past month. Might be a bit all over the place but these are the changes I would consider.

:slowking: - S -> A/A+
If I'm honest I hate this mon and it should drop to A/A+, which is amusing considering a month ago I had it penned down as a menace to teambuilding and single-handedly ruining the metagame. As I should have expected, the metagame adapted to standard FuturePort builds really well and in the average game you will have 1, maybe 2 opportunities to set up the hit. It gets pressured by everything and is forced to just click Teleport directly at times, which is still valuable to a team but is nowhere near worthy of S rank anymore. On top of that, it often loses to the mons it's supposed to be checking. Heatran can reliably trap and kill Slowking, or at least keep it low enough to where it is no longer able to check anything else on the team, Tapu Lele could bop it with a Thunder or just keep it low with Moonblast, but I think the biggest issue it has is its status as a defensive water that loses to Urshifu. So yeah, drop this thing.

:clefable: - A+ -> S
I would consider bumping this up to S rank. There are an absurd number of sets Clef can run and each and every one of them is viable. Unaware saw a huge amount of usage in World Cup, slotting onto popular builds such as Luthier's team here, IFG's team here, and guang's team here. As always Clef is a fantastic glue mon with utility such as Knock Off, TWave, Aromatherapy and Trick, while also having the ability to be a wincon with CM sets. Premier mon at the moment, should go up.

:bisharp: - A -> A-/B+
Should probably drop to A-/B+, its dismal winrate in World Cup (31.43%) kinda indicates how the meta has adapted to it, especially with the surge in Buzzwole usage. I think SD sets are still extremely potent but I would probably stay away from Banded now. Its direct competition with Weavile as an offensive dark doesn't help its case.

:rillaboom: - A -> A-
Think this could drop to A- as well, considering the high usage of mons such as Heatran, Corviknight, Tornadus and Melmetal, you're gonna need a lot of things to go right to make CB sets work. SD is still potent but fits on pretty specific builds. Of course, when it works, it wins games, but I think more often than not you will get turns wrong and will be forced out.

:toxapex: - A -> A+
Kinda goes with my point about Slowking earlier, but it should definitely go back to A+. FuturePort being worse helps it, and TSpikes right now are fantastic with the abundance of choiced users such as Urshifu, Lele and Pult. Don't have much to say, Pex is Pex and it does Pex things. Bring it back up.

:urshifu_rapid_strike: - A -> A+
One of the best breakers in the tier right now, and it should rise to A+. Absolute menace to prep for, and even more menacing in game when trying to pivot around it, backed up by its incredible winrate of 60% in World Cup. CB sets can potentially drop Aqua Jet for coverage such as TPunch or Ice Punch which can break a game wide open, and Bulk Up sets are fairly decent as well.

:weavile: - A -> A+
Unquestionably should be A+, provided you've trained it well and it hits Triple Axel consistently. Boots means it can come in as many times as it wants and it's able to apply a huge amount of offensive pressure with its SD sets, consistently being able to break through common defensive cores. Its ability to act as a pivot on mons like Hydreigon and Kyurem is pretty underrated, and of course being able to switch into Pult once or twice and force it out is a god send for offense. Also have the option to run Low Kick>Ice Shard which can open up a game early with kills on Heatran and Melmetal. Running Adamant is genuinely a viable option as long as your team has methods of dealing with Torn, and I would recommend it.

:melmetal: - A- -> A
Would support a move to A, although I don't feel too strongly about it. The rise in usage of Pads with TWave has made this mon even better than it was and I rate it higher than the other mons in A- so moving it up seems better to me. Great at pressuring fat teams by flinching down counters and can usually trade for a kill against offense.

:hippowdon: - B+ -> A
Should rise to A, the SpDef set is a fantastic utility mon, providing Rocks, Toxic, and Sand chip which is crucial in matchups against Pult and Weavile, and generally just being a great blanket check to a lot of mons in the tier.

:slowking_galar:- B+ -> A-
Would 100% use this over regular Slowking now, should move up to A-. A set that I've seen that I really liked was Ox's which ran a fair amount of offensive investment, making this mon really difficult to switch into and pivot around. Ice/Flame + dual STABs coverage is just really difficult to deal with for a lot of structures at the moment.

:tapu_ fini:- B+ -> A-
Up to A- at minimum, could also make a case for A. Has 3 amazing sets in Scarf, CMTaunt and Whirlpool, complemented by its great defensive typing and general bulk as well as Misty Terrain just makes it ridiculously good. Most offenses should be using ScarfFini, since it provides speed control, a pivot to Pult and Urshifu, or could also Trick away its Scarf to cripple a defensive mon. CM with Taunt allows it to function as a wincon on bulkier teams, while Whirlpool is fantastic in the fat matchup as it can trap and remove 1 or 2 mons with ease. Easily a top mon at the moment.

:tyranitar:- B+ -> B/B-
Should drop to B/B-. While it does provide a ghost resist, it is also susceptible to being free momentum on Pult U-turns. The only set I would consider using is Banded since the SpDef set is just far too passive, and even that is outclassed by Weavile and Bisharp. Inferior sand setter, inferior breaker, needs to go down.

:buzzwole:- B -> A-
Saw a huge boom in usage in WCoP and for good reason, I would put this in A-, although I wouldn't be upset with B+. Offensive sets are just really difficult to switch into and it thrives in the Future Sight based offense matchup, with its coverage being nearly impossible to pivot around. 240 speed, CC/Ice Punch/Roost and one of Leech Life and TPunch last and you've got yourself a great option on bulky offense and balance builds. Even had its own archetype basically at one stage, with teams based around Buzz/Koko/Hippo/Corv being very popular for a while.

:suicune:- B -> B-
Should move down to B-, main issue I have with Suicune is that its a passive wincon in a meta that is based around preventing free turns. It feels really difficult to pull off a win with this thing and its defensive utility is suspect at best.

:tapu_bulu:- B -> B+
I'd support a move up to B+, what Bulu has going for it is its better coverage options, something that Team LatAm put to good use. Offensive sets with SD/Horn Leech/CC/Edge are actually hard as hell to pivot around and have performed nicely, a game that comes to mind is Enz vs Dflo, so I'd say its closed the gap to Rillaboom recently.

:victini:- B -> B+
Criminally underrated, should be B+ at minimum. Scarf sets with Final Gambit are whatever to me, but Boots sets are honestly superb. Its synergy with terrains is also great, for example pairing it with Koko for a stronger Bolt Strike, or with Lele and having Expanding Force as a coverage option. You can run Glaciate to cover Dragonite, Scorching Sands to cover Heatran, there's a myriad of different options available to you, which I think makes this mon a great option.

:blacephalon:- B- -> B
Should be B imo, it's difficult to get in at times with its Rocks weakness, but when it gets going it is basically a kill button. B- just feels too low for something with so much gamebreaking potential.

:mew:- C+ -> B/B+
Big rise up to B, maybe B+, Mew has been a great option as of late, either functioning as a wincon with Cosmic Power+Body Press/Stored Power or as a stallbreaker with Taunt/Night Shade/Wisp. Annoying to kill, annoying to switch into.

:zapdos_galar:- C+ -> B-
Probably should move up to B-, it's far better than anything in the C ranks and actually has very solid wallbreaking potential with its CB sets.

jfc this is way longer than I thought it would be
 
Said I'd make a post here in this post (read if you have the time), so here it is. Thoughts are based on my observations in WCoP and my time spent on ladder this past month. Might be a bit all over the place but these are the changes I would consider.

:slowking: - S -> A/A+
If I'm honest I hate this mon and it should drop to A/A+, which is amusing considering a month ago I had it penned down as a menace to teambuilding and single-handedly ruining the metagame. As I should have expected, the metagame adapted to standard FuturePort builds really well and in the average game you will have 1, maybe 2 opportunities to set up the hit. It gets pressured by everything and is forced to just click Teleport directly at times, which is still valuable to a team but is nowhere near worthy of S rank anymore. On top of that, it often loses to the mons it's supposed to be checking. Heatran can reliably trap and kill Slowking, or at least keep it low enough to where it is no longer able to check anything else on the team, Tapu Lele could bop it with a Thunder or just keep it low with Moonblast, but I think the biggest issue it has is its status as a defensive water that loses to Urshifu. So yeah, drop this thing.

:clefable: - A+ -> S
I would consider bumping this up to S rank. There are an absurd number of sets Clef can run and each and every one of them is viable. Unaware saw a huge amount of usage in World Cup, slotting onto popular builds such as Luthier's team here, IFG's team here, and guang's team here. As always Clef is a fantastic glue mon with utility such as Knock Off, TWave, Aromatherapy and Trick, while also having the ability to be a wincon with CM sets. Premier mon at the moment, should go up.

:bisharp: - A -> A-/B+
Should probably drop to A-/B+, its dismal winrate in World Cup (31.43%) kinda indicates how the meta has adapted to it, especially with the surge in Buzzwole usage. I think SD sets are still extremely potent but I would probably stay away from Banded now. Its direct competition with Weavile as an offensive dark doesn't help its case.

:rillaboom: - A -> A-
Think this could drop to A- as well, considering the high usage of mons such as Heatran, Corviknight, Tornadus and Melmetal, you're gonna need a lot of things to go right to make CB sets work. SD is still potent but fits on pretty specific builds. Of course, when it works, it wins games, but I think more often than not you will get turns wrong and will be forced out.

:toxapex: - A -> A+
Kinda goes with my point about Slowking earlier, but it should definitely go back to A+. FuturePort being worse helps it, and TSpikes right now are fantastic with the abundance of choiced users such as Urshifu, Lele and Pult. Don't have much to say, Pex is Pex and it does Pex things. Bring it back up.

:urshifu_rapid_strike: - A -> A+
One of the best breakers in the tier right now, and it should rise to A+. Absolute menace to prep for, and even more menacing in game when trying to pivot around it, backed up by its incredible winrate of 60% in World Cup. CB sets can potentially drop Aqua Jet for coverage such as TPunch or Ice Punch which can break a game wide open, and Bulk Up sets are fairly decent as well.

:weavile: - A -> A+
Unquestionably should be A+, provided you've trained it well and it hits Triple Axel consistently. Boots means it can come in as many times as it wants and it's able to apply a huge amount of offensive pressure with its SD sets, consistently being able to break through common defensive cores. Its ability to act as a pivot on mons like Hydreigon and Kyurem is pretty underrated, and of course being able to switch into Pult once or twice and force it out is a god send for offense. Also have the option to run Low Kick>Ice Shard which can open up a game early with kills on Heatran and Melmetal. Running Adamant is genuinely a viable option as long as your team has methods of dealing with Torn, and I would recommend it.

:melmetal: - A- -> A
Would support a move to A, although I don't feel too strongly about it. The rise in usage of Pads with TWave has made this mon even better than it was and I rate it higher than the other mons in A- so moving it up seems better to me. Great at pressuring fat teams by flinching down counters and can usually trade for a kill against offense.

:hippowdon: - B+ -> A
Should rise to A, the SpDef set is a fantastic utility mon, providing Rocks, Toxic, and Sand chip which is crucial in matchups against Pult and Weavile, and generally just being a great blanket check to a lot of mons in the tier.

:slowking_galar:- B+ -> A-
Would 100% use this over regular Slowking now, should move up to A-. A set that I've seen that I really liked was Ox's which ran a fair amount of offensive investment, making this mon really difficult to switch into and pivot around. Ice/Flame + dual STABs coverage is just really difficult to deal with for a lot of structures at the moment.

:tapu_ fini:- B+ -> A-
Up to A- at minimum, could also make a case for A. Has 3 amazing sets in Scarf, CMTaunt and Whirlpool, complemented by its great defensive typing and general bulk as well as Misty Terrain just makes it ridiculously good. Most offenses should be using ScarfFini, since it provides speed control, a pivot to Pult and Urshifu, or could also Trick away its Scarf to cripple a defensive mon. CM with Taunt allows it to function as a wincon on bulkier teams, while Whirlpool is fantastic in the fat matchup as it can trap and remove 1 or 2 mons with ease. Easily a top mon at the moment.

:tyranitar:- B+ -> B/B-
Should drop to B/B-. While it does provide a ghost resist, it is also susceptible to being free momentum on Pult U-turns. The only set I would consider using is Banded since the SpDef set is just far too passive, and even that is outclassed by Weavile and Bisharp. Inferior sand setter, inferior breaker, needs to go down.

:buzzwole:- B -> A-
Saw a huge boom in usage in WCoP and for good reason, I would put this in A-, although I wouldn't be upset with B+. Offensive sets are just really difficult to switch into and it thrives in the Future Sight based offense matchup, with its coverage being nearly impossible to pivot around. 240 speed, CC/Ice Punch/Roost and one of Leech Life and TPunch last and you've got yourself a great option on bulky offense and balance builds. Even had its own archetype basically at one stage, with teams based around Buzz/Koko/Hippo/Corv being very popular for a while.

:suicune:- B -> B-
Should move down to B-, main issue I have with Suicune is that its a passive wincon in a meta that is based around preventing free turns. It feels really difficult to pull off a win with this thing and its defensive utility is suspect at best.

:tapu_bulu:- B -> B+
I'd support a move up to B+, what Bulu has going for it is its better coverage options, something that Team LatAm put to good use. Offensive sets with SD/Horn Leech/CC/Edge are actually hard as hell to pivot around and have performed nicely, a game that comes to mind is Enz vs Dflo, so I'd say its closed the gap to Rillaboom recently.

:victini:- B -> B+
Criminally underrated, should be B+ at minimum. Scarf sets with Final Gambit are whatever to me, but Boots sets are honestly superb. Its synergy with terrains is also great, for example pairing it with Koko for a stronger Bolt Strike, or with Lele and having Expanding Force as a coverage option. You can run Glaciate to cover Dragonite, Scorching Sands to cover Heatran, there's a myriad of different options available to you, which I think makes this mon a great option.

:blacephalon:- B- -> B
Should be B imo, it's difficult to get in at times with its Rocks weakness, but when it gets going it is basically a kill button. B- just feels too low for something with so much gamebreaking potential.

:mew:- C+ -> B/B+
Big rise up to B, maybe B+, Mew has been a great option as of late, either functioning as a wincon with Cosmic Power+Body Press/Stored Power or as a stallbreaker with Taunt/Night Shade/Wisp. Annoying to kill, annoying to switch into.

:zapdos_galar:- C+ -> B-
Probably should move up to B-, it's far better than anything in the C ranks and actually has very solid wallbreaking potential with its CB sets.

jfc this is way longer than I thought it would be
great write up! Agreed on a lot of them!

I think buzzswole being a meta threat might be as short lived as Slowking, so would hesitate to agree on that one. Bisharp and rilla are already trending down and Weavile is displaying its utility with boots and a “force outer” rather than an SD sweeper. The SD is more of an ace up the sleeve to speed up an end game. At least based on how I’ve been seeing it used in ladder. I’m partial to the life orb sweeper set however, which hates buzz swole as well as the super meta unaware clef, and loves heatran/corviknight/skarmory, lol.

:Buzzswole:

buzzswole has limited offensive output due to how many offensive Pokémon’s don’t actually care about it, so you can easily lose a lot of momentum, like when that urshifu in your world cup game just rammed down the back to back surging strikes. It wasn’t threatened all.

it’s also an open invitation for fini, toxapex and other nuisances to come in.

melmetal and Tyranitar are the other two i disagree with,

:Tyranitar:

you mention the importance of weather chip damage in the current meta on hippo, it’s just as relevant on Tyranitar! Also being the 2nd most reliable switch in to Volcarona is a big deal right now (offensive dragonite cannot best bulkarona reliably if Volcarona has a sand setter partner, ironically! Defensive dragonite sucks). Volcarona is literally on the cusp of S tier in the current meta and possibly only held back by two Pokémon in OU. It’s movepool is diverse so it has massive utility verse offensive teams as well.

:Melmetal:

whilst I think Melmetal can sometimes be the most annoying Pokémon, as someone who primarily plays offense.. it really sucks for it that a lot of its checks are topping the usage charts right now. Corviknight and urshifu are too popular, as is to toxapex and bulkarona. Ferrothorn and skarmory might not be as popular right now but they weigh heavy on it too. So it can’t do it’s job very easily.
 
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This is pretty much misinformation, I don't know why this post is here since it's not saying that Skarmory should rise in the rankings or that Corv should drop, which shouldn't happen since both are perfectly fine in their current position, but i'd like to argue against the points this post is making because they're just not true.

Specially Defensive Skarmory is not something you should use, it loses to most of the special stuff it wants to check, and on top of that now loses to most of the physical stuff it wants to check. Whirlwind is also mostly inferior to Iron Defense while checking stuff like garchomp since a bad roll can basically ruin your Skarm. Now, seeing the pool of mons you said it can still check with a Specially Defensive spread:

:ss/Landorus-Therian:
From what i saw, there's no meaningful difference in the Swords Dance Landorus-T matchup, +2 Stone Edge does KO Specially Defensive Skarmory but you're still entering on a Swords Dance in these scenarios.

:ss/Rillaboom:
If you're not running boots Skarmory, which you should never do, please use either Shed Shell or Rocky Helmet since those are way more rewarding and you're likely getting knocked anyways since you're coming in on Banded Rillaboom, Standard Lando, etc., then you have a chance of losing to Swords Dance Rillaboom (Choice Band matchup is still solid) instantly, while Physically Defensive Spreads have the capacity of coming in, living Superpower after rocks and winning the 1v1 with accurate play, as Knock Off does up to 62 when Skarm has an item and is outhealed by Roost once Skarmory loses it.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 272-320 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Skarmory: 214-253 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Skarmory: 117-138 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
:ss/Garchomp:
SD with Leftovers and Fire Fang (The set most Garchomps are running nowadays) wins to Specially Defensive Skarmory
While Physically Defensive can easily handle Fire Fang, barely doing over 50% to it when Garchomp is at +2, Specially Defensive can lose to it if running Iron Defense as we can see here:

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 214-252 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


+2 252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO

Even if we take into account a minimum roll like 64, there's still a 43% chance of Skarmory losing, and if we get a relatively medium-low roll like 68, or anything upwards of 67.7, Skarmory is dead and there is no SD Chomp answer. If we account on whirlwinding Garchomp out, now your Skarmory is around 36 percent health and can easily be overwhelmed next time Garchomp gets in.

:ss/Clefable:

Clefable nowadays runs Calm Mind with Life Orb and Thunder to properly threaten foes such as Heatran and Toxapex without having losing matchups vs steels, as you outlast Ferrothorn anyways, so, can Skarmory serve as a check to Life Orb Clefable Thunder?


+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 265-315 (79.3 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Surprisingly, no, Skarmory is yet another mon on the list of stuff that doesn't properly check Clefable, and even if Stealth Rock aren't up it's not like it can do anything to win to it, Iron Head does 31 to 38, and Whirlwind, as always, is a gamble.

:ss/Tapu Lele:


252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 176-208 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Rocks aren't even necessary, another mon Specially Defensive mon Skarm can't check

:ss/Tornadus-Therian:

I don't know or care if i'm doing this in the correct order but whatever, Tornadus-T has been increasingly popular recently, and Nasty Plot Heat Wave is one of the sets that has been in use, losing the Heatran matchup but solidifying itself vs threats like Corviknight, That being said, Nasty Plot Focus Blast still exists so we'll acount for both.


+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 332-392 (99.4 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 209-247 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As we can see, it miserably fails to check a mon it's supposed to check again, maybe we're encountering a tendency of this set to lose to stuff!

:ss/Kyurem:

Now, if you're reffering to SubRoost Kyurem, then it does win vs it, but i don't get why you'd use Skarmory to beat SubRoost Kyurem, Regarding Specs Kyurem, do i even need to post the calcs? we all know Skarm is helpless vs it even with investment


252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 199-235 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even timid 2hkos with Ice Beam, and Modest 2hkos with Freeze Dry, this is clearly not a check.

Now, am i saying you shouldn't use SpDef Skarmory? Yes, yes i am, you need the Physical Bulk to check Garchomp and no person that wants to win should use it. Sorry if my takes are a bit inflamatory or agressive but if you're going to spread misinformation at least make it believable.

Adressing others of the points you've made, no, Specs Kyurem Lead is not for Primarina, it's to counterlead most rockers, and no, Zapdos is not for Primarina either as it also counterleads most rockers if running Hurricane. I think arguing for Primarina to A is pretty absurd since putting it over really solid stuff like Scizor and Magnezone, and comparing it to Rillaboom is exaggerated, it's not even better than Tapu Bulu or Moltres, and it should stay where it currently is, as the argument you have is mostly that it's unwallable but it's also really easy to beat since a lot of stuff threatens it out, namely Electrics, Slowking Galar, Grasses, amongst others, and Slowking gains free momentum off of it which is great for the teams that are struggling to pick up due to their abusable nature.

Now, for this to not be just a post taking down something that will have little to no impact on the rankings, I'll like to mainly voice my support for the addition of Weavile to A+.

:Weavile:

This mon is crazy, has little offensive and defensive answers and is generally a pain to face if you're not running Unaware Clefable fat, also pairing well with amazing mons such as Tapu Koko and Dragapult, and its status of 6th most used mon during Round 1 of WCoP shows it.

I also recently noted that there wasn't much talk about one of the mons that's currently partially struggling in the format, which is Zapdos. Weavile and Dragapult are great, Zeraora is shifting more towards Bulk Up sets and running Toxic instead of Volt Switch in some instances, and its usage and winrate during R1 were not good at all, being the 30th in usage with a 38 percent winrate. I think it doesn't belong in the same rank as Magnezone, Blissey, and especially Scizor and Melmetal, and is more comparable to Tangrowth, Dracozolt and Mandibuzz.

Other things that i support are basically everything Ox and Gomi said, mainly rising
Toxapex to A+, rising Heatran to S, dropping Rillaboom to A-, and basically everything to4ster already said too.
I agree that Primarina is not worthy of more than B, and about the (to put it nicely) mediocrity of SpDef Skarmory, but I still don't think Scizor is worth above B in the first place. I agree with Magnezone being better, but Scizor being in A is something that is very overrated... It has its use, but without the select Pokemon on the opponent's side, it's a Knock Off spammer, and that's not very hard to find good ones with. It has a niche but I don't think its niche is worthy of above B
 
I agree that Primarina is not worthy of more than B, and about the (to put it nicely) mediocrity of SpDef Skarmory, but I still don't think Scizor is worth above B in the first place. I agree with Magnezone being better, but Scizor being in A is something that is very overrated... It has its use, but without the select Pokemon on the opponent's side, it's a Knock Off spammer, and that's not very hard to find good ones with. It has a niche but I don't think its niche is worthy of above B
I’ll try not to promote primarina too much anymore, as it seems people just write off my opinion about how effective it is at pulling its weight, despite replays showing it perform against counters. Maybe I should include replays of how it chews through common cores like hot butter

will be patiently waiting for someone to tech it in the World Cup of Pokémon, and surprise the high frequency corviknights, clefables, etc that it preys on!

Also I think my comments about specially defensive skarmory may have been easily misinterpreted. I don’t think it’s necessarily viable, just very useful for my situation. The core point I was making is the role compression of hazards and metal bird is important for offensive teams. It’s not comparable to corviknight, as if you want a defogger there is a clear winner, if you want a hazard user, you have one option, and it’s not a bad one!
 

TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
I agree that Primarina is not worthy of more than B, and about the (to put it nicely) mediocrity of SpDef Skarmory, but I still don't think Scizor is worth above B in the first place. I agree with Magnezone being better, but Scizor being in A is something that is very overrated... It has its use, but without the select Pokemon on the opponent's side, it's a Knock Off spammer, and that's not very hard to find good ones with. It has a niche but I don't think its niche is worthy of above B
Scizor's place is definitely justified IMO. It's one of the few good checks to Kyurem and Tapu Lele, and can check other big threats like Weavile and Rillaboom. I wouldn't say it's "just a Knock Off spammer" when it also functions as a good defensive pivot with U-turn, and a late game win condition with Swords Dance. There's also the less common offensive Swords Dance sets on hyper offense, which still are good against typical threats to hyper offense like Rillaboom and can even utilise Sand Tomb to trap Toxapex.

Also I think my comments about specially defensive skarmory may have been easily misinterpreted. I don’t think it’s necessarily viable, just very useful for my situation. The core point I was making is the role compression of hazards and metal bird is important for offensive teams. It’s not comparable to corviknight, as if you want a defogger there is a clear winner, if you want a hazard user, you have one option, and it’s not a bad one!
On offense you'd be better off using something else that's less passive like Landorus-T for rocks and Ferrothorn or Scizor for a bulky Steel. People already pointed out that specially defensive Skarm checks nothing, which is terrible for your defensive hazard setter. Skarmory is definitely not comparable to Corviknight, but rather to Ferrothorn and Mew as specially defensive spikers (rocks Skarm is terrible don't use it.), both of which have consistently proven in WCoP and other places to be way better than specially defensive Skarm, which should be run only in BW OU where Alakazam dominates.
 
I’ve been laddering on many alts trying to improve and I wanted to make a post on which mons I think should rise. Ok let’s get into the post.

:Blissey: -A -> A or +A (at least)
Blissey is an extremely tanky and pretty powerful Pokémon. With its massive HP stat and great Special Defense, it can wall the most feared special attackers like Kyurem, and Dragapult. Blissey also has a vast move pool and it’s nearly impossible to kill. It has the ability Natural Cure which gets rid of its status (so you don’t have to worry about that), and Gen 8 introduces Heavy Duty Boots so it doesn’t take damage from hazards. Insane right? A super tanky Pokémon with great recovery that can’t take status? How is this thing -A tier? With that, Blissey can be ran as a Rocker, an Aromatherapist, a Wish passer, and it has good status moves like Toxic and Thunder Wave. Additionally, Blissey gets Teleport so you can switch into other Pokemon and gain momentum. With all of this and the ability to do reliable damage with Seismic Toss, Blissey should be at least A tier.

:Toxapex: A -> +A
Toxapex is also very tanky. It has good recovery with recover, AND IT GETS REGENERATOR WITH MASSIVE SPECIAL AND DEFENSIVE BULK. IT’S OVERPOWERED BAN IT. This thing can take special hits, physical hits, and it can check/counter so many threats in the meta game. Urshifu, Clefable, you name it, it can probably check it in some way. There are many item options with Toxapex. It can be Shed Shell (which deals with Heatran by removing its Leftovers), Black Sludge (for extra recovery), or Rocky Helmet (to deal damage on switches). It’s a great wall and you can run moves like Scald (for possible burns), Knock Off, Toxic, and Haze (which deals with some setup users). It can even be a trapper and run Block Spite and it is the only viable Tspikes user which can be game changing. Overall, Toxapex is a very OP Pokemon.

:Clefable: A+ -> S
An S tier mon should be game changing, very effective, and a threat teams should look out for. Clefable definitely meets these standards for S tier Pokemon. First off, Clefable can have many different roles on a team. It’s move pool is very very VAST (Teleport, Thunder Wave, you name it). The bulk of this Pokémon is pretty decent, and it can be a Stealth Rock setter, a Pivot, Wish Support, an Aromatherapist, and a potential sweeper. It’s an amazing mon. It has 2 great abilities, Magic Guard, and Unaware. Unaware is typically used on stalls, and it’s great to have a mon that ignores attack boosts checking a variety of the tier. Magic Guard, the other good ability, is usually used for utility. It‘s nice to have a mon that isn’t slowed down by status, which is why it’s so good. It’s Calm Mind set can turn a game around giving it bulk and attack to sweep a team. Thunder, Thunderbolt, and Flamethrower give it great coverage. It can even be ran as a trick user tricking Stick Barb, or Choice Scarf. This is great for breaking and slowing down teams. Clefable is a consistent, meta defining Pokemon that is worthy of S tier.

:Slowking: +A <- S
This was covered by many other people and I would just be repeating if I explained it. It teleports, it pivots, it has Future Sight, what makes it S tier?

:Tapu Fini: B+ -> A
This thing is gonna rise anyway but yea. It has bulk, it can be a Defogger, it can be a breaker with its Taunt + CM set, and Misty Terrain really slows it getting affected by status. It also can be a Trick scarf user which is very effective. This is a consistent Pokémon so it’s going to rise.
 
I’ve been laddering on many alts trying to improve and I wanted to make a post on which mons I think should rise. Ok let’s get into the post.

:Blissey: -A -> A or +A (at least)
Blissey is an extremely tanky and pretty powerful Pokémon. With its massive HP stat and great Special Defense, it can wall the most feared special attackers like Kyurem, and Dragapult. Blissey also has a vast move pool and it’s nearly impossible to kill. It has the ability Natural Cure which gets rid of its status (so you don’t have to worry about that), and Gen 8 introduces Heavy Duty Boots so it doesn’t take damage from hazards. Insane right? A super tanky Pokémon with great recovery that can’t take status? How is this thing -A tier? With that, Blissey can be ran as a Rocker, an Aromatherapist, a Wish passer, and it has good status moves like Toxic and Thunder Wave. Additionally, Blissey gets Teleport so you can switch into other Pokemon and gain momentum. With all of this and the ability to do reliable damage with Seismic Toss, Blissey should be at least A tier.
I'd say Blissey is just fine where it is. The prominence of physical threats such as Urshifu-RS and Weavile hurts it a lot, and even the special threats have counterplay (Lele clicks Psyshock, Pult U-turns out, Kyu 2hko's with Focus Blast after chip, etc). Speaking of chip, there's a reason why walls these days love Regenerator so much: Blissey's lack of it means that it's worn down without much difficulty, as it often doesn't have the time to Soft-Boiled and needs to Teleport out immediately. A 50% Bliss just doesn't have the ability to switch into everything and live to Soft-Boil. It also struggles badly with Heatran, and its reliance on Boots makes it a prime target for Knock Off as well. It's still a great catch-all special wall and status absorber on Balance and Stall, but it gets chipped down and handled later a little too easily for A+.
 
:Clefable: A+ -> S
An S tier mon should be game changing, very effective, and a threat teams should look out for. Clefable definitely meets these standards for S tier Pokemon. First off, Clefable can have many different roles on a team. It’s move pool is very very VAST (Teleport, Thunder Wave, you name it). The bulk of this Pokémon is pretty decent, and it can be a Stealth Rock setter, a Pivot, Wish Support, an Aromatherapist, and a potential sweeper. It’s an amazing mon. It has 2 great abilities, Magic Guard, and Unaware. Unaware is typically used on stalls, and it’s great to have a mon that ignores attack boosts checking a variety of the tier. Magic Guard, the other good ability, is usually used for utility. It‘s nice to have a mon that isn’t slowed down by status, which is why it’s so good. It’s Calm Mind set can turn a game around giving it bulk and attack to sweep a team. Thunder, Thunderbolt, and Flamethrower give it great coverage. It can even be ran as a trick user tricking Stick Barb, or Choice Scarf. This is great for breaking and slowing down teams. Clefable is a consistent, meta defining Pokemon that is worthy of S tier.
Absolutely agree, Clefable's utility is nearly endless with the amount of sets in can run, Magic Guard is such a busted ability, allowing it to not have to worry about hazards or even life orb damage, Unaware stops setup sweepers in their tracks and can make Clefable such a problem if it can get set up since you can't counter it with your own setup moves. Even some niche sets can work really well, one of my favorites being Healing Wish Clefable able to fully restore either the next pokemon that comes in, or come into a full health pokemon and keep healing wish's power waiting for the right opportunity. Love Clefable right now and believe it 100% deserves S tier.

Other noms I agree with:
:slowking: S > A+
:mew: C+ > B-
:grimmsnarl: C- > higher (C+ imo)
:Buzzwole: B > A-
:tapu-fini: B+ > A-
 
I'd say Blissey is just fine where it is. The prominence of physical threats such as Urshifu-RS and Weavile hurts it a lot, and even the special threats have counterplay (Lele clicks Psyshock, Pult U-turns out, Kyu 2hko's with Focus Blast after chip, etc). Speaking of chip, there's a reason why walls these days love Regenerator so much: Blissey's lack of it means that it's worn down without much difficulty, as it often doesn't have the time to Soft-Boiled and needs to Teleport out immediately. A 50% Bliss just doesn't have the ability to switch into everything and live to Soft-Boil. It also struggles badly with Heatran, and its reliance on Boots makes it a prime target for Knock Off as well. It's still a great catch-all special wall and status absorber on Balance and Stall, but it gets chipped down and handled later a little too easily for A+.
Some of the points you made are definitely valid like there being a lot of strong physical attackers these days. With a lot of teams running Knock Off, Blissey is definitely slowed down and far from unbeatable. In many cases it just can’t directly switch into special attackers. However, I’d say Blissey is great at what it does. It sets up stealth rocks, and dishes out status to a lot of its threats. It can still wall a variety of attackers even with the possible counter play, but I also think it’s kinda hard to wear down with Natural Cure removing status and HD Boots removing hazard chip. It has really good versatility and it helps out a lot of teams.
 
:weavile:A -> A+

Weavile is a menace, it has a great stab combination in knock off, ice shard, triple axel/icicle crash. SD sets can just set up on a pokemon like slowking, slowking-g, dragonite, and more. From there it can proceed to punch huge holes into a team due to it having no safe switch in at +2. Banded just straight up is strong by hitting every pokemon neutrally or super effective barring bisharp, tapu fini, and urshifu-r which besides tapu fini do not have recovery. It is fast and is able to revenge kill many pokemon with its priority ice shard and its great speed tier such as garchomp, dragonite, tornadus-t, and weakened rillaboom. Even tapu fini which is a very bulky pokemon struggles to switch into weavile several times a game due to knock off. And corviknight being eliminated or weakened by stealth rocks, knock off, or status can easily fall to.
 
Scizor's place is definitely justified IMO. It's one of the few good checks to Kyurem and Tapu Lele, and can check other big threats like Weavile and Rillaboom. I wouldn't say it's "just a Knock Off spammer" when it also functions as a good defensive pivot with U-turn, and a late game win condition with Swords Dance. There's also the less common offensive Swords Dance sets on hyper offense, which still are good against typical threats to hyper offense like Rillaboom and can even utilise Sand Tomb to trap Toxapex.
those are good points, although I do disagree with the last one because people started running shed shell pex, and sand tomb, while probably being good when used correctly, doesn't exactly look as enticing as magma storm on heatran.
 
those are good points, although I do disagree with the last one because people started running shed shell pex, and sand tomb, while probably being good when used correctly, doesn't exactly look as enticing as magma storm on heatran.
Well, Toxapex mainly run rocky helmet or black sludge unless on stall teams. Heatran and scizor also do different things as sand tomb on scizor is a lure. Bulky scizor is not meant to counter toxapex, it is meant to use toxapex as a switch in to pivot into stuff like heatran, tapu koko, or specs dragapult to pressure phys def pex.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Here's the deal: we have a larger slate here and I have been quite busy this week, so we're taking a page out of the VR history books. I am going to post all of the rises and drops now; you guys can post any questions you have over the next 24 hours and I will respond to each of them in this thread. The thread is open to questions on the VR shifts for the next 24 hours, but not new nominations/shifts, and they will all be responded to. This way you guys get the reasoning you need, we encourage more activity and interest in the thread, and I can enjoy my Thursday night watching baseball :toast:

Rises
  • :Heatran: from A+ to S-
  • :Toxapex: from A to A+
  • :Urshifu:-Rapid-Strike from A to A+
  • :Weavile: from A to A+
  • :Dragonite: from A- to A
  • :Melmetal: from A- to A
  • :Slowking-Galar: from B+ to A
  • :Tapu Fini: from B+ to A
  • :Hippowdon: from B+ to A-
  • :Buzzwole: from B to A-
  • :Tapu Bulu: from B to B+
  • :Victini: from B to B+
  • :Mew: from C+ to B+
  • :Kommo-O: from B- to B
  • :Blacephalon: from B- to B
  • :Zapdos-Galar: from C+ to B-
  • :Grimmsnarl: from C- to C+
Drops
  • :Slowking: from S to A+
  • :Bisharp: from A to A-
  • :Rillaboom: from A to A-
  • :Excadrill: from B+ to B
  • :Crawdaunt: from B to C+
  • :Suicune: from B to C+
  • :Amoonguss: from B- to C+
  • :Latios: from B- to C+
  • :Primarina: from B- to C+
  • :Zarude: from B- to C+
  • :Ditto: from B- to C
  • :Obstagoon: from C+ to C
  • :Quagsire: from C+ to C
  • :Togekiss: from C+ to C
  • :Alakazam: from C to C-
  • :Celesteela: from C to C-
  • :Conkeldurr: from C to C-
  • :Hatterene: from C to C-
  • :Marowak-Alola: from C to C-
  • :Uxie: from C to C-
  • :Xatu: from C to C-
  • :Diggersby: from C to UR
  • :Nidoqueen: from C to UR
  • :Rhyperior: from C to UR
  • :Araquanid: from C- to UR
  • :Gyarados: from C- to UR
  • :Mantine: from C- to UR
  • :Mimikyu: from C- to UR
  • :Thundurus: from C- to UR
To reiterate, please ask any and all questions you may have about things rising or dropping; I will be answering all of them within the next couple of days. Please do not post new nominations for rises, drops, or ranking/unranking of Pokemon. Thanks and I hope you guys like the update!
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Since you insist on us asking questions, I have one and please take no offense. Why is Charizard still ranked? Does it still have a very very small niche that it alone can do?
 
Here's the deal: we have a larger slate here and I have been quite busy this week, so we're taking a page out of the VR history books. I am going to post all of the rises and drops now; you guys can post any questions you have over the next 24 hours and I will respond to each of them in this thread. The thread is open to questions on the VR shifts for the next 24 hours, but not new nominations/shifts, and they will all be responded to. This way you guys get the reasoning you need, we encourage more activity and interest in the thread, and I can enjoy my Thursday night watching baseball :toast:

Rises
  • :Heatran: from A+ to S-
  • :Toxapex: from A to A+
  • :Urshifu:-Rapid-Strike from A to A+
  • :Weavile: from A to A+
  • :Dragonite: from A- to A
  • :Melmetal: from A- to A
  • :Slowking-Galar: from B+ to A
  • :Tapu Fini: from B+ to A
  • :Hippowdon: from B+ to A-
  • :Buzzwole: from B to A-
  • :Tapu Bulu: from B to B+
  • :Victini: from B to B+
  • :Mew: from C+ to B+
  • :Kommo-O: from B- to B
  • :Blacephalon: from B- to B
  • :Zapdos-Galar: from C+ to B-
  • :Grimmsnarl: from C- to C+
Drops
  • :Slowking: from S to A+
  • :Bisharp: from A to A-
  • :Rillaboom: from A to A-
  • :Excadrill: from B+ to B
  • :Crawdaunt: from B to C+
  • :Suicune: from B to C+
  • :Amoonguss: from B- to C+
  • :Latios: from B- to C+
  • :Primarina: from B- to C+
  • :Zarude: from B- to C+
  • :Ditto: from B- to C
  • :Obstagoon: from C+ to C
  • :Quagsire: from C+ to C
  • :Togekiss: from C+ to C
  • :Alakazam: from C to C-
  • :Celesteela: from C to C-
  • :Conkeldurr: from C to C-
  • :Hatterene: from C to C-
  • :Marowak-Alola: from C to C-
  • :Uxie: from C to C-
  • :Xatu: from C to C-
  • :Diggersby: from C to UR
  • :Nidoqueen: from C to UR
  • :Rhyperior: from C to UR
  • :Araquanid: from C- to UR
  • :Gyarados: from C- to UR
  • :Mantine: from C- to UR
  • :Mimikyu: from C- to UR
  • :Thundurus: from C- to UR
To reiterate, please ask any and all questions you may have about things rising or dropping; I will be answering all of them within the next couple of days. Please do not post new nominations for rises, drops, or ranking/unranking of Pokemon. Thanks and I hope you guys like the update!
What caused mew to rise that much? Also Kommo-O rising? For what set? Quite curious since I havent seen both of these mons in action
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Why the drop for Rillaboom? I've been finding a ton of success with the monky boi as Choice Band Grassy Glide has the ability to completely dismantle big frail threats like Zeraora who's seen a huge rise in usage lately.
Rillaboom is still a good Pokemon, but it is not a staple on HO anymore and it is less consistently used on BO even. We are seeing an abundance of Buzzwole, Corviknight, Volcarona, and Dragonite in general, but also revenge killers like Kyurem, Tornadus-Therian, Kartana, and Tapu Lele are all either on the rise or remaining effective in the tier. It is hard for Rillaboom to make much progress beyond U-turn pivoting and timely Knock Offs vs balance and bulky-offense. It can be a potent weapon against offensive teams, but we also see Specs Dragapult, Weavile, and Zeraora fulfilling this role while being more well-rounded options, providing numerous other roles to your teams. Rillaboom is caught in the middle right now, so it dropped slightly. I can see it rebounding to A, but right now A- suits it better. This was a closer vote than most, for what it's worth.
Interested to why Kommo-o rose. Why is that?
It has come back a little bit from the dead. Being able to check a group of physical attackers such as Bisharp, Rillaboom, Kartana, Zeraora, Scizor, Excadrill, and Crawdaunt puts it in a similar position to Buzzwole. Buzzwole, of course, has recovery and a more immediately threatening offensive presence, but Kommo-O has Stealth Rock and greater set versatility, enabling a lot of possibilities. You have to be careful with Kommo-O, which still limits it overall, but it is viable enough to warrant a rise here.
Since you insist on us asking questions, I have one and please take no offense. Why is Charizard still ranked? Does it still have a very very small niche that it alone can do?
No offense taken -- the purpose of this is to help give you guys the explanations the initial post lacked, to help inform interested parties, and to stimulate thread/forum activity. It is my pleasure to discuss!

As for Charizard, it is still a potent option on Sun teams. Heatran has made this more of a pipe-dream than a consistent reality, but even then, we see Charizard breaking through Toxapex and Slowking in the Sun with minimal prior chip, so the sheer strength of Charizard leaves it with enough to cling on to a C- slot. I do not believe it is even one of the worse options in C- given the upside, too.
I would like to hear about what changed for Melmetal to rise, and also the rationale behind Heatran in S- but not Slowking.
I personally voted for Melmetal to be A the last few times, but I think we just got a few more votes this time around. I believe being able to abuse Clefable is a huge plus for Melmetal; Protective Pads 3A + T-Wave is an amazing set with few true counters and other variants like AV and CB are also very viable. Melmetal is not a truly "solved" Pokemon either -- many possible sets remain underexplored and this allows for it to work on balance, bulky-offense, and hyper offense. This versatility and how threatening it is allows for it to move up to A rank for now.

Again, I voted for both to be S- myself, but Slowking just missed out on S-. With this said, Slowking is still a great pivot, but it is not the best at winning 1v1 scenarios against common offensive Pokemon and a lot of structures are built around abusing it before Future Sight + Teleport can dictate the tempo of the game, which is shown by the rise in bulky offense right now. Heatran being S- is perhaps overdue though. It provides an unmatched offensive and defensive presence, fitting on to a plethora of teams while also being a destructive offensive weapon. I firmly believe it is one of the top three to five Pokemon in the tier and belongs in S- until we have a clearer consensus.
What caused mew to rise that much? Also Kommo-O rising? For what set? Quite curious since I havent seen both of these mons in action
Check my response to notsotryharding33 as for Kommo-O's reasoning (mainly the SR set, but also occasional boosting sets). As for Mew, we have seen a sudden uptick in its usage. Utility sets with Knock Off, Will-O-Wisp, recovery, and Spikes have been the main reason. It is able to check things like Nidoking and abuse Slowking with Spikes + Knock Off while also remaining threatening to physical attackers thanks to the burn prospect. This has been a consistent development in the recent World Cup of Pokemon and is even starting to translate to increased usage on the ladder.

This is all for tonight. I will get to more tomorrow after work and stuff
 
As for Charizard, it is still a potent option on Sun teams. Heatran has made this more of a pipe-dream than a consistent reality, but even then, we see Charizard breaking through Toxapex and Slowking in the Sun with minimal prior chip, so the sheer strength of Charizard leaves it with enough to cling on to a C- slot. I do not believe it is even one of the worse options in C- given the upside, too.


This is all for tonight. I will get to more tomorrow after work and stuff
bruh. not only is heatran making that a pipe-dream but you competely leave out other sun sweepers. venusaur or even leafeon is better as a sun sweeper than charizard imo. charizard somewhat softer than leafeon and much softer than venusaur after a growth boost in the sun. zard also has meh bulk and average speed. As for leafeon and venusaur having lower speed stats, the simple answer is chlorrphyl.
 

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bruh. not only is heatran making that a pipe-dream but you competely leave out other sun sweepers. venusaur or even leafeon is better as a sun sweeper than charizard imo. charizard somewhat softer than leafeon and much softer than venusaur after a growth boost in the sun. zard also has meh bulk and average speed. As for leafeon and venusaur having lower speed stats, the simple answer is chlorrphyl.
I opened the thread explicitly to questions about the shifts, not whatever this self-fulfilling rebuttal is intended to be. I do not see any questions and I see multiple mentions of Leafeon, so this surely does not belong.

If you want to nominate Charizard for UR, you have every right to do so once the thread is re-opened for that purpose. I will happily bring it up to the VR council with your points kept in mind at the appropriate time. Until then, please follow the rules. Thank you!
 
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