OU DPP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

There was a lot of valuable discussion about Jirachi and Spore both here and on the Discord server, so I would like to contribute a bit with my thoughts. DPP OU was always my favorite metagame and I enjoyed seeing different iterations over the last decade.


Breloom / Spore discussion

The problem I see with Breloom is the following: In DPP it has access to Spore, high damage output and Poison Heal and I believe the combination of all three is what makes it problematic. We can see that in ADV in has no Poison Heal and in BW in has no Spore, so in both metagames Breloom is still quite strong but not as oppressive as it can be in DPP. What do those three traits mean?

Spore means you have access to a 100% safe sleep move, which means unless your opponent is faster or has sleep talk or has a Lum Berry (which also only works once!), you are guaranteed to cripple a mon and there is nothing your opponent can do about it. Once you are in that "lock", depending on the set it can get a substitute off, which means even for a one turn sleep you can just press spore again (with again no risk involved), get a new sub and so on. High damage output means that you cannot stall out the sleep turns, because your counter will be dead before it wakes up. Even finding counters is difficult, since Brelooms moves are so strong. Finally, Poison Heal means it is very tough to take down, once activated, you cannot use status, you cannot use knock off, despite Sand/Hail it will still recover Health (the damage you deal does not stick) and so on. It is usually not enough to just chip damage it, you need to actively take it down.

For teambuilding it means the following: For offensive teams you have to construct teams which do not allow Breloom any setup or use one-time strategies like a choiced sleep talk, Lum Berry and so on to quickly swing the momentum. For more defensive teams, you always have to include two Breloom counters, one to absorb sleep and one to actually beat it. Here, it is not enough to be able to take hits, you also have to threaten it. I believe this is extremely restricting for the team building process, as there are not a lot of good options to begin with and then you always have to include two of them. By banning Spore, we would get rid of those restrictions, as not it could be sufficient to include something which beats Breloom 1v1 and that's it.

Also, for the people who will say something like "Well you can just play Crocune to absorb Spore and then go to your counter", I will tell you that good players will not let you get away with that, they will not press blindly spore but maybe force you out again by just attacking and then you are in big trouble. Another argument I heard a lot was that there are other sleep move users as well, but for those there is risk involved. If you use Rose Lead and use Sleep Powder on a threat, you might miss, which will put you in a bad spot, meaning you will lose games on average because you rely on the move hitting.

In conclusion, I would be a strong advocate of banning spore, Breloom will still be fine and team building will be more divers and enjoyable. The only mon which loses something besides Breloom would be Smeargle, which is already a niche playstyle and could still use Dark Void with 80% accuracy.


Jirachi / Iron Head

This one is more complicated. I believe what makes Jirachi problematic is the combination of how flinch chains work and its incredible movepool. The movepool means you always have to be careful when scouting the set, as there are a lot of offensive and defensive variants Jirachi can use and especially mixed versions can be very hard to handle. But the bigger problem is of course with the flinching. So, what exactly is the problem here?

First of all, for flinching or paraflinching there is only a 40% resp. 30% chance that you are allowed to move. The mechanic generates so much freeturns, it is actually incredible. As previously pointed out, every turn is - mathematically speaking - an “independent event”. That means the game does not “owe” you good luck in the future if you got unlucky as before. If you are interested in statistics, read about probability distributions (The relevant ones here are binomial distribution for the attacking player and geometric distribution for the defending one). It is important to see what this actually means for your ingame decision making. Suppose your switch-in is like in the previously example something like Swampert, which can take 6-7 hits. You go for it and get flinched three times in a row. Now you find yourself in a significantly worse situation than before you switched, as your “counter” is now dangerously weakened. Since the game has no “memory” of your luck, the chance to be allowed to move in the next turns still will be 40%, but now only 2-3 more flinches are necessary and you cannot undo your decision, since your “mistake” was three turns ago when you decided to try and go for the 1v1. You can now hope for the best in the remaining turns or send in something else, with the possibility of the same thing happening again.

You would think that since it is only 60/70% to get the freeturn, it is easy to break those chains. But you have to realize most of the times, since Jirachi is so bulky even without investment, you need to hit two or three times in quick succession. Because if you fail to do so, it will heal up any damage with leftovers. Then suddenly, your odds don’t look so good anymore.

Honestly, I do not know a single example that makes in-game planning so difficult and draws so much resources. Oftentimes I’m “scared” to lose even when I have good answers, because as stated by Deepblue, what if the counter gets burned or paraed? What if it actually manages to get a 5 or 6 hit chain where I’m not allowed to move? Freeturns means it literally does not matter what I click, because if I’m not allowed to move, I won't do anything anyways. It makes planning impossible, since your opponent can just get lucky enough to still beat you. Suddenly Jirachi is able to beat bulky waters or Skarm. Don’t forget that there are always still 5 other Pokemon involved. There are so many completely ridiculous replays where Jirachi singlehandedly turned the game around by just getting lucky. It has been around for so long and the complaints are numerous and rightfully so. I don’t think any player has even been really happy by winning or losing to flinch chains compared to how it feels when you actually manage to outplay your opponent.

Finally, there was some discussion if an Iron Head ban solves those issues. Excal stated Headbutt and Zen-Headbutt as alternatives. Here, in both cases there are immunities which block the move completely. Headbutt will be too weak, as you lose your STAB. Zen-Headbutt can miss, which means there is now more risk involved for the attacking player. If you use wide lens, you don’t have leftovers recovery, which means any damage your opponent does sticks. I guarantee you those sets will not be anywhere near as consistently good than if you used Iron Head. Jirachi will still be one of the best mons in the metagame and there are numerous options to stop DD-sweeper and other threats without relying on IH-Jirachi.

In conclusion, I would advocate for an Iron Head ban. It makes the game uncompetitive in a similar way as evasion and as a huge impact on the metagame for both teambuilding and ingame decision making.



On a final note, before deciding anything, a lot in these topics is theory, so my proposal would be: at least try and test the changes and see how they work out in practice. Does it make the metagame more enjoyable? If so, the community should act accordingly. Despite being an old metagame, we have a very active and passionate player base (the ladder right now is way more active and competitive than three years ago), so changes should still be possible.
 
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PDC

street spirit fade out
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Four-Time Past WCoP Champion
won the dpp server tour and cashed in $100 which makes it objectively more esteemed than every other official tour. just gonna go thru a couple of the series as for most of them i used just arbitrary picks but for those i put in any semblance of effort into i'll give an overview

pdc vs jsaok

so i know jsaok likes to use a lot of wonky stuff, so i figured i would open up g1 with a real standard old-style stall build with forre/cele/gyara. the dp / rs zapdos was certainly a first, although it didn't manage to do much damage to my team given the presence of hippowdon. immediately after stalling, i wanted to switch it up to a style i never use, Rain HO, in order to keep him on his toes in case he doubles down on the anti-stall stuff that i typically spam. i just managed to barely win that one. rain was not the move for g2 as he brought out a quagsire ttar mag combo, which really puts my team to rest bar ludicolo. i had to play that one almost perfect in the end to win without bringing it to g3. i really didn't feel like facing another gimmicky team in the third game without a team i was rlly confident in winning with.

pdc vs marco

i wasn't sure what to use vs marco, but i knew i didn't want to stall-up again because i figured it would be way harder to outplay his loose cannon ass. i typically follow the rule of running offense vs people who i can't get a good read on. i went with a spikes build g1, but it was the offensive kind with cbgon and gengar. g2 i went with a more defensive build, but it had the presence of stuff like subtran + gliscor. the team matched up incredibly well, and although i got a couple lucky breaks, it was basically the ideal team for the series. i have been known lately for my celebi fetish, and that's because i think celebi is really stellar at walling out gyara/emp/pert/loom without having to risk status or dying. even ttar hesitates to switch in because of the threat of a super strong grass STAB in its face. vs players like marco who typically enjoy spamming those types of physical offenses, a balanced fat celebi fwg build was perfect for the job. celebi, despite being vulnerable to every hazard, is actually a really good pick bc of how well it sharks those offenses who lack the ability to break it.

pdc vs ophion 1/3

the first time i played ophion i really just wanted to stall him all 3 games, but i knew that was too predictable. i decided to use some more "innovative" builds to clean him up quickly. i know ophion builds a lot, so i wanted to use stuff that. g1 was definitely the hardest MU, being how i was basically on the backburner from the start w/ the early skarm trap + breloom being an absolute pain for that team to deal with. really i was banking more on facing offense than a slow-mag balance. g2 i ran up with a really slow crocune mag balance, which ended up getting a bit unlucky. crocune did awesome as expected, but the rest of the team fell apart pretty quickly after a really one-sided start. g2 is a remidner to how quickly gyarados can get out of control, definitely the best dder in the entire tier. you need 2-3 checks on defense for it due to the threat of flinch / coverage. another reason why quagsire is op...

g3 i whipped out the emeral quagsire team. i really love that squad, and it features some more uncommon faces in cbape and quagsire. i played this game a little mediocre, although i managed to give myself a fighting chance until the end where i over-predicted on ophion w/ gengar. i also never should have just swapped ape out t1 vs ttar, but i was really worried he'd just pull trigger and eq me turn 1 with scarftar, so i swapped instead of taking what would have been an incredibly easy turn 1-2 trap on latias.

pdc vs christo

christo i prepared a little bit more for because of how miffed i was that i lost in WF. i knew christo would not all-out stall me, and like marco, i know him as a lose cannon so i didn't want to run super hard stuff against him either. i know he loves those special spam offenses, so i decided to bring out a forgotten threat in lead aerodactyl to combat both that and the possibility of zelf HO. close game, but worked like a charm. i used some pretty unconventional stuff on the team like agility 3atks belt dnite, which is a set i have been itching to use for about 5 years now.

team for those interested: https://pokepast.es/39e236f34d9fce0a

g2 i really wasn't sure what to use so i fell back on this fakes squad with physdef loom and uxie. the team has some holes but it was the type of pace i was shooting for with cbtar + loom. i got lucky as hell this game towards the end after misplaying and tossing out clef, and i had 0 clue what i'd like to bring g3. luckily i was able to close it out and stay in the tournament for another game.

pdc vs ophion 2/3

going into our second set i knew i had to win. money was on the table. i prepped a lot for these 2 sets in comparison to my others, and put together a couple teams i thought would do well in winning. the first set i don't know how i managed to win, because the MU was pretty mediocre on my end. gengar + boom tran + rose + emp is a huge threat for my type of team, especially if they manage to weaken clef. gengar was easily the hardest pokemon to deal with, and i had to really hope that i'd just be able to outlast it/swap around it for long enough. this could have easily gone both ways. once again i brought crocune (basically the same team i brought set 1 but with updated spreads and uturn jira).

g2 i ran an updated version of the team christo used vs me last set. i changed sdef loom to physdef, and jira to lead w/ uturn. i have been really liking jira with sdef and uturn lately, and i was also 100% super i'd be magged at least 2 times in our cumulative sets. vs a person like me who spams sdef jira and skarm, mag just seemed like an obvious pick. i ended up not facing 1 magnezone the entire set. either way this was a super hard one, as sd loom + machamp is really a lot for my team to handle. i was surprised i was able to pull this one out.

pdc vs ophion 3/3

for our third and final set, i really kicked it up a notch. i basically told ophion that i was going to stall him every single game before we even played, and i kept my promise. g1 i pulled up once again to an unfortunate MU. i fucked around vs the skarmory for too long and let it get up enough hazards to where my team was really in trouble. this was supposed to be avoided w/ uturn jira (AGAIN) but it didn't work out. i think ophion probably would have won this for sure if i didn't get lucky w/ the ice fang crit + miss...but then again he did crit my clef before that. either way, he got the best MU here for sure w/ a sea incense empoleon to punish my clef habit, and the mixgon. really taking advantage of my aversion to scarftar centric stalls lately.

g2 i had a GREAT mu by i squandered it by letting my blissey go early. this wasn't really a good pick on my behalf, but i couldn't think of anything else to use. he rained me, which again should have been a slam dunk with blissey, but the heatran lead just absolutely owned me. i thought it was gonna be specs, but the mstorm set was in the back of my head. so, i decided that i'd go to blissey instead because i didn't think he'd want to rain a protect spammer. i picked wrong, and it came down to a super close game in the end. i misplayed by surfing the rotom instead of paraing it when he swapped to kingdra, which given para rolls i think would have saved me in the end given his 1 thunder being left. if only he missed....

g3 was once again in my favor. i didn't really know what to use, but i knew protox metagross + mag was super devastating to ALL of ophion's builds. he relies a lot on the bulky water counterplay to metagross, so i decided to opt for the toxic protect set to bring it on home. it paid off as i managed to tox the zapdos and the pert before meta went down. the original build of this team has jira > meta, which probaby would have worked fine too. however, toxic + breloom + protect spam is a devastating combination. i was a bit worried once lati got toxic'd, but luckily he lacked ttar or sufficient luck to break the rest of my team (i was super afraid of sd loom at the start). a close game in the end though, probably due to the presence of dual specs lati + mie. the one thing that does bother me about my version is how strong dragon spammers like latias can really punish me because of my lack of a proper steel. should probably just make clef max sdef so i can absorb dracos from full....

https://pokepast.es/608d14ec5cf7df68

notes on the meta

- in my finals set, i used protect loom 4/5 times. i didn't even use spore 2/4 times i did use loom iirc. i instead opted for sday w/ cune and sb vs ophion g3 because i felt i was too vulnerable to water types. anyway, protect defensive loom is super good right now. WAY better than i expected. this pokemon has serious longevity and if you get lucky and face a non-tarless build, it basically lives forever. it is an efficient counter to jira, pert, cune, tar, gyara, and other loom to varying degrees. super good pokemon, and i still feel like it can be abused even moreso on fat builds. perhaps i can merge it better w/ spinners + spikes / tspikes in the future.
- clefable. on my VR i put clef as the third best pokemon in the tier, above heatran/lati/rotom. i think clef is still absurdly good, and although people learned how to "overpower" it, all it takes it a moveset change to make it unbreakable once more. i opted for encore clef 3times in the final set. not only does encore clef destroy other defense with hazards down, but it effectively stops the subcm types which look to abuse clef-based stalls. clefable is still top 3 for me, and this series showed just how efficient it is in its lane. as an aside, cm clef is also looking really good again after an interim period.
- immediately after spl ended, i was super high on HO. i thought that style was nigh unbeatable. now, i'm not so sure.
- protectspam is the wave. people rely too much on choiced users to break stuff up. 3-5 protect users per team can seriously setback some offenses. all you need is a little residual help along the way in the form of either hazards/status/weather.
- i think if i were to re-order my VR, i'd probably do jira/tar/clef/loom/tran as the top 5. tran is a little more manageable than it was just a couple months ago. atm my favorite set is still subtect w/ 2 atks, although i have been thinking about subtect w/ roar paired with a bunch of hazards.
- really need to look into new-age types of stall. i think hippowdon is pretty stellar in beating most offenses, but it suffers from being really status/hazard/loom vulnerable. time to break out the heal bell-type stalls and return to rapid spin as the main way to avoid hazard vulnerability?
 
Since I promised a post about my run in the same server tour PDC won and beat me in the finals, here we are. First off, gotta say congrats to PDC for winning it. If I couldn't be the one to do it, I'm glad it was you and that we got to play in the finals, you're always a really fun person to play and see the builds you chock up. I'll stay to talking about specific bo3s in detail that I played since I prepped harder for some than I did others but will give quick mentions to cool stuff in the others. First wanna give a sincere shoutout to those who are better than me and spent their time helping a dogshit player like me almost pull the win out against people much better than him. So thanks M Dragon, Tomahawk, mael, Pohjis, TPP, Excal, GaryTheGengar, The SPrinkLer, JabbaTheGriffin (idiot) and especially eden like holy fuck eden you were my man to go to every time, your dedication to helping some ass player like me who really didn't deserve it was absurd so thanks. Anyway, on to the analysis.

Set vs Christo
So I got a bye in r1 just cause how the bracket was made and I beat hellpowna in my first bo3. Then I found out that I got Christo as my opponent. Frankly, I was fucking terrified cause Christo played in SPL and I'm obviously not to that standard, so I knew I needed to pull some voodoo magic in the teambuilder. Luckily, I had a lot of time to prep since Christo was busy for a bit and I also knew PDC was likely a big mind behind his SPL run so I could look back on what PDC likes to a degree. Upon going through all of his scouts, I realized he was mostly very big on Specs Latias or Gyarados Water resists and he was very likely gonna go offensive since he only had like 2 balance replays in SPL and that he spams Gyarados and those same Waters like a madman. I then noticed he didn't really use Bronzong at all, so I put 2 and 2 together and decided that Abomasnow was a really good choice of mon alongside a Scarf Zone. I talked to The SPrinkLer (aka the Aboma stan), and he gave me the DeepBlueC SD Aboma team. I also liked the choice cause Christo likes offensive DD'rs not named Gyarados, which Hippo on that team could help. Anyway, my matchup intuition was correct and I got a great matchup. I got amazingly lucky though and got to keep rocks off due to a crit and won super quickly.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-558417

Now that we went through all that, this is the part where the lack of really good Water resists is relevant cause I was a bitch and rained him out. BIHI did it in SPL and it worked well, so I said fuck it imma be lazy, and did that. It worked very well, although I did misplay turns 17 and 18 pretty hard. My last mon was an SD Ludicolo, and it had lower odds to kill Zapdos than Kingdra ( 252+ Atk Life Orb Ludicolo Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos in Rain: 211-250 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). This meant that if Metagross woke up on turn 17 and Kingdra dropped, then it woulda been really hard to win it at that point.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-558419


Set 1/3 vs PDC
So this set was one I was in part looking forward to, another part dreading. PDC is a total wildcard, and scouting him can only go so far. So I went hard into making sure I counter any really cheesy stuff. This is why I went with the august Slowbro team since Slowbro stops any cheesy nonsense with DD Spammers. I just made the Latias CM Roar since it'd fuck with special spam and screens. From there, it beat for beat same as August's team. I won't post the import but yea. Looking back, I really fucked up this game up badly. The first of my mistakes was throwing out Slowbro on turn 37 to Rotom for legit no reason. I did it to stop Rotom from doing any sub split stuff, but Breloom pivot woulda done that fine post para. Then there was the matter of the much bigger fuck up; wasting Latias's DPulse and getting greedy on fishing. Against Milo, I shoulda been spamming Roar a lot more to rack up hazards since Clefable was CM setup fodder. The other fuckup I had was going Loom on turn 71 when there was a Latias and Clefable to pivot to. Ultimately, I didn't play this optimally and I could have made it closer if I tightened up how I played my Latias and Breloom.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-561593

Now game 2, I decided to go a totally different direction and fall back on WaterSpam, mainly since I only used Gyara 1 time and Water spam could overwhelm potentially. Turn 1 Trick went well in crippling Clef so Starmie and Gengar could overwhelm since Clef was his only Gengar answer. However, I was a dumbass and let Gengar die to Suicune more or less, which really bit me tbh, since Gengar looked super good vs him in hindsight. Anyway, turn 24 totally turned the tide of the game and fucked the Gyara counterplay up something fierce. I likely coulda gone super hard with Gyara instead of turn 26, but I didn't wanna risk any Custap Zone nonsense. Turn 28, Flygon getting slept could have been pretty bad if I didn't wake up after 1 turn, but I had to sleep sack since I was super Leech Loom weak (PDC coulda capitalized on this a fuckload if not for my luck). Turn 51 after Rachi Gyara stuff, I misplay massively and Ice Fang expecting Latias, thinking PDC would wanna not take EQ but he was favored to 1v1 at this point so was me fishing a choke. I got a crit that in most cases didn't matter. Turn 56 I misplayed and risked hard Flygon for no good reason; if he unfroze and DPulsed I lost while I coulda just Ice Fanged since if he stayed froze, I won. Anyway, kinda a lucky set but we ain't see anything yet.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-561597

Game 3 ended up being stall vs stall, which was fun. The 2nd biggest highlight was that Barb Clefable worked, found it in a post in the underrated sets thread here and thought it'd be a cool tech for whatever PDC would bring (especially cool if it disabled Loom from Poison Healing). I ended up Barbing Skarm, which was great honestly, since otherwise I woulda probs had a pretty hard time breaking through it. We trade Spikes, which advantages me since I'm running essentially Superman DPP. EQ fat Latias ended up not working out so hot, since Lucario ate the hit anyway. So turn 17 I misplayed super hard for no real reason and Roosted predicting Espeed. This was an awful play for several reasons: If PDC Espeeded, I coulda forced a Ttar 50 50, which coulda let me Roost back up easily or get a free pivot to whatever I wanted. For another, I knew I'd outspeed, so this risk was totally worthless. Turn 20, I wanted to para something since I knew so long as no crit, I could Soft on a para'd Tar. This ended up working super well, since I para'd Ape. So turn 22, I again misplayed and Pursuited Ape for no reason, it died to rocks+spikes regardless. I ended up being bailed by para there, which was dumb. After pivoting around Quag a bit, we get to turn 51, where PDC reveals Taunt, which totally hard walls my Clefable and then burns my Skarmory next turn. This leaves me a fucking terrible position frankly since Tar drops to hazards. After some more Skarm stuff, Rotom gets forced in. I tried fishing Sball drops on Quag since Tar drops to hazards to no avail. Then turn 69, PDC frankly throws the game in the bin for no reason and Focuses Clef, which lets me TWave him. He, in my eyes, has no reason to not Taunt, since even if I Skarm, I take 18% and can't Roost while he also lives DPeck and another rocks switch in without dropping to sand. Then I proceed to make a misclick so stupid, only I can do it and hard Rotom instead of Skarm on accident, which gets rewarded with a para. I wasn't trying to predict Focus, I really did misclick and got rewarded. From there, Charge Beam Rotom washed. For sure the game where luck was the most impactful, but I'd say I still played it better than g1.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-561598


Set 2/3

Game 1 I went in with what was originally supposed to be a Sub Petaya Empo, before pussying out cause of the potential of Scarf Flygon, and made it Shuca Berry. I also made it Timid, which will be important for later. The first 3 turns are general Jirachi Clefable pivoting stuff, switching to scout Rachi moves and all that. Turn 4 I boomed too early for no reason, I really shoulda bluffed it more, especially since I need more Clefable chip for Empoleon to properly go on a sweep. Next 3 turns are Rose are setting TSpikes and crippling Rachi for later. Had I not boomed Tran already, I coulda saved my sleep for later and got it on not Jirachi so to set up Empoleon better, but alas. Turn 8 I just get thoroughly outplayed with the Rachi stay. Turn 10, I again misplay and take Knock Off with Gengar when having it healing with no sand up but there being rocks coulda made it a super major threat, and able to take on Rachi better thanks to Taunt. I think going Swampert or Roserade woulda been there better there in hindsight. I get a super lucky Spdef drop that sets me up well turn 11, which I proceed to throw out when I Taunt into Zone when Focusing or Sballing was the play every time since Spdef dropped Rachi with a burn was always in a shit spot even if it Wished. This will come back to bite me later. After I take a needless Iron Head with Gengar, which will make it die so much quicker, I get outplayed as shit turn 24 as PDC goes hard Loom on Sleep Powder. I think my brain totally turned off at this point and I didn't Taunt the Breloom with Gengar for some reason??? Because I played my Gengar so poor all game, I lose it to the Breloom on a kinda needless double Protect tbh, PDC imo coulda sacked the Suicune here. Instead, I set my Empoleon up on the Suicune sack and score a super lucky crit on his Clefable. Turn 33, I proceed to misplay and Hydro. It never kills thanks to me being Timid and not Modest. In this case, I really should have fished a beam freeze, since beam damage woulda left the Zone in Hydro range. I don't know if it would win me the game or anything, but it's for sure another execution flaw in a game filled with them on my end. Leech Loom then proceeds to fuck me.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-570936

Game 2 I decided to go dual Fight para spam, since I didn't elect it despite PDC recommending it vs a different opponent in the tour since I said I didn't like the style. In truth, I really don't lol, I just thought I'd do it here and catch him off guard, which I did and got a really nice mu. I get a good start and Trick Scarf to Jirachi, which will help for later. After rocks, I U-Turn to Machamp on Empoleon, which Knocks me. I really wish I just stayed in with my Uxie if I'm being honest; the risk of taking that or Surf with Machamp was so needless, especially when it would likely have a really nice matchup and a lot of chances to fire off. I then waste 25% of its HP on the Jirachi switch for NO reason, like holy shit DPunch was so free and I didn't take it and I wasted now even more valuable HP. Turns 14 and 15, I get lucky and get Loom in on a what was Ice Beam Empoleon (PDC beamed on the fp) and I forced Zap to Roost with a Facade crit. I then do yet another stupid thing (you're seeing a trend here?) and take Heat Wave and kill Zapdos. Now, this seems super nice until you realize my other Fighter is pretty much dead as well, leaving me like no room to really abuse this big hole in Fighting resists. I then get a fucking terrible para that makes me not kill Starmie, which will come back to bite me later. After some Loom Uxie stuff, I U-Turn to Lati and force out Loom out and beam into Empoleon. Turn 28, I sack Loom like a fucking idiot instead of tossing the now worthless Ttar for God knows why. I then Jirachi into Machamp to lure PDC to Protect the turn after I Machamp so I can Sub up and nab a kill, which works and is the only play I can say I did a good job with all game. Turn 32, I fuck up once more and Payback killing Starmie. This is a misplay because I shoulda gone hard Latias and Twaved the turn after, which would then proceed to a HWish to a Fighter. This route woulda probs won me the game pretty much every time if Starmie wasn't Psychic. But instead, I force myself into a 50 50 with Machamp TTar and Pursuit, which I lose. Turn 33, I lose the Machamp cause PDC Superpowers for God knows why? Crunch killed anyway. I then go against the idea of logic turn 36, and HWish up my Ttar into his Ttar instead of Jirachi because IDFK. My tar could not his Empoleon either, at this point you coulda easily assumed I was some 1100 ladder player. I then lose cause Empoleon walls me. I would say this was my worst played of the entire tour, and it only had a single play that can be called good.


Set 3/3
Like PDC, I knew I needed to step it up as well. For g1, I decided I'd give the standard Jirachi Clef Skarm fats the biggest middle finger I coulda realistically done, and overloaded with MixGon, Insense Empo lead, and SD Lucario with Spikes. I ended up facing Scarf Zone, which was the worst run-in I coulda had for a team that really wanted SD Luc to break through shit for Gon. I started this game as aggro as humanly possible, just tryna force rocks and pressure as much as humanly possible. I managed to get 2 layers too, which was amazing. I then realized Scarf Zone was here, and I'd need to tread carefully since Lucario was only so much of a threat so long as it was around. After I get halted hard by Clef on Draco, I go to Empoleon and try to beat the Clefable with it. This goes somewhat ok at first in spite of a miss, until turn 16 where I get greedy as shit and beam for a freeze as he Knocks. Realistically, I shoulda Pumped on the Knock then fished freeze. If I crit pump, then Clef dropped. If I didn't then, then that's still forced a Softboiled. Turn 23, I get some good progress by Tricking Latias, opening my Mixgon a lot potentially and making it super Pursuit and chip prone. The big thing, however, was Rotom got Leftovers, which would prove instrumental for the game's entire progression. Turn 29, I Ice Punch since it covers literally everything and PDC throws his Loom out. This is great for me, since now Crunch spam is looking pretty scary should I burn Hippo somehow or chip it a lot in general. After this, PDC gets super greedy and stays on Tar with Clef when his Hippo coulda likely taken 2 Crunches and Slack spammed. Turn 45, I get outplayed as he effectively forces out Flygon to get a Wish off, which gets passed to Hippo. Turn 48 turns out as bad as possible for me, with a Wisp miss and crit. Imo the Wisp miss was a lot worse, but both sucked. Turn 51, I proceed to misplay and sack Tar to Tbolt. Realistically, Gon was super safe there since PDC was not likely to use up his boom so early. Had I hard Gon'd, I coulda Roosted on the Jirachi sack and been in an amazing position. Sadly, I was a dumbass as usual and didn't do this. I instead make it into a 50 50 on turn 53 after I don't Roost on a super obvious Jirachi sack. Had I rotom'd on boom, I think I had it pretty favorably with the rolls. But I got it wrong and lost. I'd say this one was a real nailbiter and a fun one, even though I played so badly with the Gon and around Zone.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-571264


Game 2, it was now life or death and decided I'd need to cheese my way out of it. Jabba mentioned how weak PDC was to Kingdra and rain in general (moreso the former, the latter was in a vacuum cause of PDCs Protect fetish). Anyway, lead Tran popped off and got a major mon for the matchup. The Jirachi proceeded to actually do well in forcing rain up thanks to my Grass Knot tech meant for Quagsire getting a good run in with Hippo. Qwilfish then proceeded to take out 2 big threats to my team, which was amazing. However, turn 16, I commit a FATAL flaw, and take the Knock with Kingdra. This makes breaking through the Clefable now more or less impossible without voodoo magic. I'd say this was the worst play I made the entire set, almost totally securing my demise. Honestly, I assumed my run was over at this point. However, my Rotom decided to bless me against all odds and hit so many Thunders when Encored to where PDC got stalled. The Rotom then landed Thunder through para somehow, and I scraped by to g3.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-571268

Everyone who's made it far it far into a tour and has a g3 knows how fucking stressful and scary that g3 is. I decided I'd pull a similar strategy as g2 of the first set and just aim to totally overwhelm offensively, with powerful dual specs core of Modest Latias + Starmie. However, this idea had one flaw that got totally owned: Protect just sits on it. Specs Latias got a good start and got half off of Metagross. I figured, wow that's amazing, he seems to have no answers. I didn't realize until Metagross Protected post-Toxic that 8 PP on Draco was gonna bite me against 2 Protect Pokemon (at min). Turns 8-12, I proceed to just play as aggro as I possibly could, unfortunately Sporing a Magnezone instead of a more desirable target. After Latias got the pivot on the Seed Bomb, I swapped to Jirachi as it Reflected. Frankly, I shoulda Toxic'd here or a little bit earlier, as I gave it too much early wiggle room. Until turn 45, all that happens is I flounder around trying to find a opening in his very ironclad core. I do get the kill on the Metagross, but it did its job at this point. I do get a Toxic on turn 47 on Latias, which I thought would make a lot of progress. After turns 53-57 of fishing with Jirachi and Breloom don't work out at all, I get absolutely fucking stomped turn 58 on a Seed Bomb that I didn't see coming at all. In hindsight, I really shoulda just went hard Zapdos and sacked it off and waited until later for an opening for Starmie to go in with Psychic. Perhaps after Latias DPulsed down Clefable and friends a little bit more since Zone is asleep and Latias is Toxic'd, so Psychic spam was super free. After this, I just try to find any way whatsoever to Wish my Latias to hopefully get something going, which I don't. I really shoulda just fished a fp at a point when vs pert tbh, I really shoulda played for the odds once things got too dire. Sadly for me, I was dogshit and didn't such, so I lost.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-571268


Other Notes:
I'm not going to go into my thoughts on the metagame or anything like that vr wise and shit, I'm in no place to since I'm still a bad player and my word is meaningless. I'd say Spore (or sleep, whatever appeases PR) really does deserve a genuine look since it really makes shit like Breloom super pesky and require super careful piloting to where I think you can never really go wrong with using it.

As you noticed reading this, I misplayed a fucking lot. Like, for making finals, how I played was unacceptable. I'm hoping I can get a lot better at this tier in later tours and as time passes, because I really enjoy playing and building it. However, I still got long way to go if this and DPPPL going 0-1 is any indication.

I experimented a lot with techs and the underrated sets thread, like the previously mentioned Barb Clefable, as well as the Sub Flygon and CM Iron Head sets Excal posted about here. The Sub Flygon set got used vs Sagearu (when he wasn't johning) and I did almost use the Iron Head Jirachi screens I had vs PDC for set 2, until I realized he had seen the team before. Some really awesome stuff in the underrated sets thread btw, a lot of creative guys in there.

Thanks for reading to the end despite me not winning and not having a good playing bone in my body.
 
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Le Don

La Déchéance d'un homme
is a Community Contributor
RoAPL Champion
Hey everyone.

This month, I challenged myself to build 30 Teams in 30 Days ( one team everyday ).

I always consider myself as a bad builder and even after building some cool and heat stuff, I don't use them for tournaments because I don't believe in myself and in my own teams.

30 Days, 30 Teams. The objective is simple : take a set / core you want to build on and lets go, let your creativity / inspiration talk. And of course I'm going to test the teams in tournament games.


Before starting quick thanks to :

- My friend Zokuru, who is doing the same thing ( not only in DPP ) and who made me want to do it.
- All the DPPers who posted in the SPL XIII DPP Discussion thread, a lot of cool sets so thx guys for this gold mine.
- The DPP Community for being active and being full of nice people.


Now lets go with some cools sets that I want to see more.

Day 1 :

Infernape DPP, non-offi.png

Cobra (Infernape) @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: as you want / need
- Fire move
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Toxic

I wanted to test Toxic on U-Turn Nape. While I was trying to revemp a team used by Mael during SPL XII, I felt by putting Toxic on the Nape in that team that the synergy with Loom and Tar would be insane. After some tests and modifications : pair it with a Loom ( with Mach ) and a Scarf Tar ( max SpD U-Turn Gliscor is also very appreciated as it checks very well Rotom / Gengar ) and you're going to destroy everyone.
You put waters, Zapdos, Bold Lati etc on a timer and then you can U-Turn and send the good response. You can also directly Turn on a Ghost type / Lati and sending your Scarf Tar to get a free kill. Loom really appreciate this Nape because they have te same checks so once Nape's answers are removed, Loom goes brrr brrr. And thx to Leftovers you don't die to Sand !

Empoleon DPP, non-offi.png

Lady Armaroid (Empoleon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 236 HP / 132 Def at least
- Ice Beam

When your team is weak to Flygon, sometimes your only solution is run strange spreads like here. This spread allows Empo to live an EQ from Flygon with 80 Atk EVs after Rocks. You're also a bit better vs TPunch Rachi.

80 Atk Life Orb Flygon Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 132 Def Empoleon: 290-344 (78.8 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 132 Def Empoleon: 288-342 (78.2 - 92.9%)


Day 2 :

Jirachi, DPP.png

spill some juice (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: rest in HP / 204 SpA / 280 or more if you have HP Ground
Modest Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Calm Mind
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ground] / other

( From the SPL XIII DPP Discussion Thread ) That set is so fire man. Luring Defensive Lati is so good, especially in Special spam. Paired with a HP Grass Boom Tran ( which is supposed to remove the Clef ), this set opens the path for lot setups like Suicune / Offensive Zapdos.

+1 204+ SpA Jirachi Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 320-378 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Day 5 :

Uxie DPP, non-offi.png

FDM t'as cru (Uxie) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: more than 310 ( maybe max speed ? )
Timid Nature
- Imprison
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn / Memento

I've always liked to use Uxie. Very bulky, SR, TWave, U-Turn... but I feel like leading with it means that you accept SR pressure from Turn 1. So when you are trying to build an HO with lead Uxie, you don't really want to use Gyara / Dnite etc with it.
But I remembered this cool idea from Kristyl ( here ).
With Magnezone ( Scarf or Custap ) or without, Imprison Uxie sits on a lot of common rockers like Pert, Tran, Hippo, Skarm etc etc. Setups like Gyara / Dnite really appreciate this Uxie. I prefer Lum > Leftovers on fast Uxie because it helps vs SR less Jirachi which goes for the Body Slam turn 1. I now have my straight foward Zone HO with lead Uxie and it's a lot of fun.


Day 6 :

Heatran DPP, non-offi.png

jsais que j'aurai (Heatran) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Shiny: Yes
EVs: whatever ( I like to run 80 HP EVs to not get 3HKO by SToss after rocks )
- Magma Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Taunt

I just took a set from PDC ( here ) and I changed the item because I hate when Latias goes for the TWave instead of Recover when I hit the Magma Storm because I got bullshited many times by some Latis getting full para on my Tran even if they were under the Taunt ( yh I'm very unlucky sometimes ). It's also useful vs an unexpected status ( like Hypnosis from Zong or Body Slam for Rachi ). I used this set in a FWG Offense ( TranCuneRose ).


Day 7 :

Jirachi, DPP.png

carrelage italien (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: depends on the team
- Iron Head
- Body Slam
- Zen Headbutt
- Protect

All the credit goes to BKC. He explained very well why ZenH on Rachi is good and very nasty especially with hazards support. I decided to remove Fire Punch and use ZenH instead. I feel like, running Fire Punch while running hazards + Zone with it is a bit useless, so I tried ZenH and I really like it. I think we should use more ZenH on Jirachi : you hit harder mons like Loom, Champ, Gar, Rose, Infernape, Waters ( Gyarados ) etc and you have a nice chance ( 40% ) to flinch them.
Used in Spikes Zone stall.


Day 9 :

Froslass DPP.png
Heatran DPP, non-offi.png

7 POINTS C RIEN (Heatran) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 152 HP / whatever ( I personally made it at least faster than Modest Kingdra, rest in SpA )
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower / Lava Plume / Fire Blast
- Explosion / other

As a certified Froslass lover, I was trying to find another viable rocker with it. I decided to explore Heatran a little bit because I had enough of all these Swamperts and Metagross.
Shuca Berry WoW Tran is a good lure to Pert, Gon, Gyara, Tar, Hippo and Latias ( especially if you have Explosion ). You burn them and then they become setup folders for Gyarados or Tar because they do less damage. Shuca Berry is also useful if you miss WoW vs slower mons or if you face an HP Ground Zone / Jirachi. Explosion allows you to remove Clef / Lati or a Water like Gyarados that want to use Heatran as a setup folder and I feel like Earth Power is less useful paired with WoW and also because the team I built doesn't need it.

252+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 306-360 (84.7 - 99.7%) ---> In case you missed WoW, maybe useless idk.


Day 11 :

Qwilfish HGSS, non-offi.png

Trafalgar (Qwilfish) @ Whatever
Ability: Swift Swim
- Waterfall
- Thunder Wave
- Rest is whatever you need

Spreading para with Qwil in a Rain team can be nice knowing that, without Rain, the team is very slow. I also found cool utility paired with a SubCune ( like BIHI during SPL vs Void ), with a Machamp or even with Qwil thx to Waterfall allowing sometimes to bullshit things like Metagross.


Some notable usages :

Gliscor DPP Front, non-offi.png

I really agree with Excal ( here ) and Sakito ( here ) when they say that Max SpD U-Turn Gliscor is good. Even variants without U-Turn with for exemple Payback + Wing Attack ( from DBC ) are great. I'm not very high on SD Gliscor though, I think it needs too much support unless you use it in HO.

Magneton DP Front, non-offi.png

Outspeeding + 1 DDers is nice for some teams. I even used Sunny Day on it in a strange Weather less Semi-Stall based on Sub DD Dnite ( you clean weather for the Dnite ).

Tyranitar HGSS Front, non-offi.png

I mostly used Scarf and DD. I really like Lum / Chople DD Taunt with Fire Punch, Skarmory and Stall killer.

Suicune DPP Front, non-offi.png

Even after 10 months I'm still in love with CM Tect Cune, really the best Cune set imo.

Flygon DPP Front, non-offi.png

MixGon is so dawn good. 4 Atks ( with Outrage and some Attack EVs ) variants are fire too. Spikes are broken with it.


Today is the 14th day and I hope I will still have the time to build a team everyday because I'm really enjoying DPP life. I will do a teamdump at the end of the 30 days, maybe some people will be interested. I'm also recording and posting, sadly in french ( this is why I will do a teamdump in english ), on my Youtube channel the teambuilding process and the team presentation.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHyPosgKeOrEyFxYtr0aRmA/featured

Thank you for reading.
 
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Le Don

La Déchéance d'un homme
is a Community Contributor
RoAPL Champion
Back again, I ended with 22 teams and even if I didn't have the time / inspiration to do 30 teams, I'm very satisfied with the result.
Quick review of some sets + notable usages + the teamdump.

Day 14 :

Metagross DPP HGSS.png

Ironman (Metagross) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Explosion

A cool tech on Meta that allows you to use another item than Chople Berry on Tar in a Zone offense. Opp expects a Scarf Meta as a revenge killer, tries to switch and gets smashed by Pursuit.


Day 17 :

Lucario DPP Front.png

SINE! SINE! SINE! (Lucario) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Bullet Punch

I wanted to build an Aero HO day 17. I saw many usages of Sash with Aero like Sash Tar / Sash Gliscor. I wanted to do the same so I decided to try Sash on Luc : the idea is that with Aero preventing hazards, you can SD on everything and then destroying everything with your priorities ( or SDing again because opp switched and you still have your Sash ! ). You also get unexpected kills because Sash on Luc in uncommon. Bullet Punch for Scarf Tar / Gengar. Not the best option ( lacks of power ) but the clutch potential is great imo.
Sash Tran is good too ( with Taunt ).


Day 18 :

lati.png

Sirwings ( vole ) (Latias) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Calm Mind
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ground]

BIHI is right this set is VERY good. This thing is terrifying after a CM kekw ( Spikes are recommended ). I tried a Modest Nature because my team was fast enough and I wanted to see the power of +1 Draco on Clef but idk if it's worth.
Before it was a Specs Psycho Shift Lati. I was hyped by this set but it's not consistent sadly. The idea was : take the Sleep, Stalk into Psycho Shift, sleep things like Tar / Clef allowing future setups.

Day 20 :

Breloom DPP.png

Refection des lits (Breloom) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: what you need
- Spore
- Facade
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Idk if someone used Facade on Def Loom before. Facade does good damage to Latias, Gliscor, other Looms, Rose, Zap etc. With Leech Seed + Facade, you keep things like Defensive Latias low health.
I can understand that 30% of getting a para is wonderful but the extra power of Facade is important for the offensive pressure.

0 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 138-163 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 152-179 (47.5 - 55.9%)
0 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 131-155 (40.5 - 47.9%)
-1 0 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 102-120 (30.8 - 36.2%)
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 236 HP / 216+ Def Breloom: 238-280 (74.3 - 87.5%)


Some notable usages :

Skarmory DPP Front.png
Forre DP Front.png
rade mais en face de toi.png

Spikes.

Tyranitar HGSS Front, non-offi.png

DD Tar is still my favorite set, Lum / Chople, Ada / Jolly, different spreads... I even used the old Max SpD Tar rofl.

Gengar DP.png

Man. After day 14 I had 0 USAGES of Gengar. That was cringe because this mon is excellent : Taunt, WoW, Knock, Explosion, Stalk, Split ... Its movepool and stats are terrifying.

Lucario DPP Front.png

Scarf Luc is still very good as cleaner and can bullshit some teams aka Copycat momento. Salac is cool too.


Teamdump, idk if someone is intrested but here we go :

https://pokepast.es/bcbb5cf1732a6b21 ( 30 TEAMS INSIDE )

See you for DPPPL !

Thank you for reading.
 

Attachments

played lots of games + dpp cup recently and i came to the following conclusion: jirachi has to go.

i wouldn't use the term "broken" to describe it, it's a bit of a different case. the main issue comes from the numerous stupid sequences where it can attempt to flinch (reminder: means both damaging the opp and healing itself) without risking to take too much because it combines fantastic typing and stats (100 is great in dpp). of course body slam exists and makes things even worse. in addition to everything it does (or can do) in a team (especially the defensive oriented ones), i think it's doing too much to stay.

won't deny the fact that it has hard counters such as lefties tran for example, but do we realize that once paralyzed it just becomes 100% clefable food?

this is more of a personal wish, but i also just (maybe?) wanna try playing DPP OU without stall having rachi to both guarantee the speed control and destroy special HO.

haven't played DPP ubers lately but i wouldn't be surprised if someone tells me it's much more balanced/enjoyable/competitive than dpp ou. this is at least the souvenirs i kept from the good old days. :)
 
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played lots of games + dpp cup recently and i came to the following conclusion: jirachi has to go.
It's really just Jirachi + Iron Head that's the problem (curiously, no one ever talks about Jirachi + Ice Punch, which is also super annoying. AFAIK Serene Grace is the only way to boost freeze chance). Unfortunately due to rules on complex bans, I don't think it will happen anytime soon.

It is a really popular opinion on these boards though.
 

bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
is a Pre-Contributor
Wanted to stop by real quick before one of my new classes starts and drop some of my opinions on :dp/jirachi: that nobody asked for

Jirachi is a Pokémon I’ve had on my radar now for quite some time due to its incredible set versatility and amazing defensive typing allowing it to be a proper scheme for on many styles of teams. I’m far from the only person who’s questioned the healthiness of Jirachi’s Serene Grace inspired playstyle for the Gen 4 OU metagame, but at the same time I’m not quite sure I would consider Jirachi “broken”. I feel like “cheap” is a better word to describe this situation.

The problem with banning Jirachi specifically seems to be that its set versatility can be a positive influence. Choice Scarf sets have utility on and off the lead slot, defensive variants often don’t run Iron Head at all, and both physically oriented and Calm Mind sets provide a positive influence on balance teams… most of the time. My opinion on this has very recently shifted, but if I’m being honest… I think Iron Head itself is the quote “problem” with this Pokémon and not Jirachi itself.

(Cutting this post short since I just looked at the time and noticed I don’t wanna be late for class, sorry in advance)
 

bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
is a Pre-Contributor
One thing is for sure : if you ban rachi you have to ban lati and then maybe spore cause without rachi and lati in the tier gl vs breloom. Maybe it will be a good thing. Who knows ?
I would personally argue that Latias and Breloom are both perfectly balanced for the current metagame and don’t require immediate tiering action. Latias is kept in check by the several powerful Steel-Types of the tier as well as by Pursuit support. Clefable is also worth mentioning as a special wall that’s not a Fairy-Type in this generation but can still withstand most of Latias’s attacks over the course of a game thanks to Magic Guard, with Latias hating Thunder Wave being a nice little bonus. As for Breloom and Spore, I get why this may be a bit of a hot take but I honestly don’t think it’s that good in Gen 4. If I weee making my own VR right now I would go as far as to put in in B Tier at the absolute maximum. Poison Heal and Spore are great, and physical Grass STAB is nice to have compared to Gen 3, but Breloom also suffers from a just kind of average Speed stat, middling defensive utility outside of Poison Heal, and a bit of an over-reliance on Spore that can be taken advantage of with specific counterplay alongside Sleep Clause.
 

BIHI

Sawubona kheys omncane yi-lagrimbe
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SPL Championis a Past SCL Championis a Past WCoP Champion
World Defender
The ideal ban package would be : Jirachi + Tias + Clefable + Sleep inducing moves

As i've been saying for the past 3 years, Jirachi hurts the competitiveness of the tier. 1 or 2 iron head flinches are often enough to completely change the outcome of a game and since it has 60% chance of happening, obviously it happens a lot. I know pokemon is about managing the odds and limiting the risks, but there's no such thing against a 60% effect from a super spammable move, combined with all the tools in jirachi's kit (body slam obviously and also fire punch allowing rachi to bypass mons such as Skarm or Swampert with ease, lefties recovery combined with sand immunity allowing it to heal while flinching).
The second big issue with this mon, also related to the competitiveness problem, is that it also makes paraspam teams viable and we have seen a significant rise of paraspam usage this past two years as players managed to optimise this playstyle. To me the vast majority of paraspam teams are heavily flawed and inconsistent but the paralysis status is so good and so easy to spread with Jirachi in the tier that it gives these teams way too many chances to get the full para/flinch/confusion rolls. There's nothing skillfull in winning games with paraspam in DPP, you're just sitting back while spamming the yellow button and waiting to get the good dice rolls. There's no doubt in my mind that hurting paraspam would make the tier way more competitive and way more enjoyable for everyone.
As most of you already know we're not allowed (the council) to even have a discussion about iron head as banning iron head wouldn't be in line with smogon's policy (there's a lot to say about this as well but w/e), that's why the only option at our disposal to fix this issue would be to completely ban the mon.

Losing Latias would be a shame, i think it's been an excellent adition to the tier in every aspect (motsly allowing offense to get a decent check to most special attackers in the game in 1 slot thus allowing cool structures with a lot of versatility to exist), but i don't see it staying if Rachi goes. Clefable is pure nonsense (Knock Off and Encore are two extremely unbalanced defensive moves in DPP and Magic Guard is completely broken, especially in DPP) and I find it extremely weird that it manages to dodge every conversation regarding the state of this tier, it should have its own discussion thread.

Spore is an issue on its own and sleep should be nuked from every tier (except rby i guess). We could take action to ban it without having to ban anything else alongside but i think it would be a mistake. Spore is a very important stall breaking tool in dpp right now and removing it would dramatically hurt some good bulky offense structures (and it would arguably buff stall which would be dramatic). Spore can only be removed as long as stall takes a big big hit as well, that's why i include it in a rachi/tias/clef package (which would arguably significantly nerf stall archetypes).

The tier is honestly in a decent/good state right now and i'm aware that most of the (competent) playerbase seems to enjoy playing it but i'm convinced that it could be way better/way more balanced if we weren't afraid of making big changes.

(this post doesn't reflect the position of the council, it's just my opinion :disguised_face:)
 
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I think a Jirachi ban would absolutely help the tier, and I don't really think there would be any consequences either.

On one hand, we'd lose Jirachi directly checking pokemon like Latias and Clefable, but on the other hand we'd have more offensive freedom to run (and pair) pokemon that don't love Jirachi but beat the aforementioned. Waters, Fighters, CB or mix tar, and other things all become easier to fit on a team when you're not worried about the Jirachi 6-0. This could just be theory or bullshit but I feel like the overall freedom gained outweighs any negatives we'd possibly see. At the very least, I would enjoy a test to get a feel for the Rachi-less metagame.

If other things end up broken then so be it but yea I don't expect that to be the case, and I think we should take the first step in changing things.
 
I personally see no reason to try to make a good tier better via anything that risks making it worse. The pool of viable pokemon is large, the frequency of high tier pokemon is high enough to guard from matchup fishing via stabilizing team structures and tempering expectations, and low enough to allow ample slots for lower-tiered pokemon to slip in and shine; the variance and viability of differing teamstyles is high; the level of protection and contingency in relation to hax is for the most part high, or at the very least good. Nothing should be banned, not because of legacy or precedents or policy or any worry of floodgates opening, but because the current state of the tier is sufficient, and the level of improvement to be achieved is not worth the potential of the opposite that any given solution risks inviting.

That being said, if you are to ban anything, then blanket ban all moves with a flinch chance of 20% or higher. Jirachi Iron Head / potential Zen Headbutt and Gyarados (+ sometimes pert) Waterfall are the primary antagonists towards this tier's hax robustness.
 
I'm on board with banning Jirachi. Jirachi's ability has won it way too many games with its odds to land a crucial paralysis, burn, and freeze. Outside of Lum Berry, you just hope that Jirachi doesn't luck you. It's not easy to play around Fire Punch Jirachi because I've seen so many instances where players switch in their Flygon to incur a Fire Punch burn. My opinions about Jirachi haven't changed, and mbh's post from around 2 years ago is still relevant imo:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-metagame-discussion-thread.3685887/post-8907349

I'm not entirely sure if banning Jirachi means that Latias has to go too. There still exists TTar, and Spdef Metagross has recently proven to be a decent Latias answer. I know this might sound a bit meme-y, but Twave Registeel is not by any means a bad option either. Cradily is a great spdef switch in (although beaten by trick), and I believe that one reason for its lack of usage is because of how easily it is beaten by Jirachi + Breloom.

With respect to Clefable, its defensive utility is unparalleled, which makes it an easy fit on a lot of defensive teams. I don't have any opinions yet on whether its banworthy for now.

I agree with BIHI that spore should be removed if stall is nerfed in some way. I do want to point out that Spore is incredibly annoying for offense to face, as can be seen with the rise in lead Brelooms. Having a lead pokemon to deal with Spore Loom (Scarf or Sash variant) gives you only a few limited options to work with: Lead Aero / Lum Azelf / Lum Machamp (with Bullet Punch) etc. Scarf Loom can be punished by certain leads, like Sub DD Dnite that subs on the spore on T1, but if it is a sash Loom, then it can break Dnite's sub with Focus Punch.
 
This metagame is really, really good. Jirachi is more manageable now than it has been in years. You can come up with any drastic change you want, but it will take at least a year or two to really understand any long-term implications, like we saw with Latias's unban.

Speaking from recent innovations, I strongly feel that using your own RestTalk Jirachi or Rest(Talk) Bronzong is extremely helpful in answering pretty much all Jirachi variants long term. RestTalk Steel/Psychic types allow for less reliance on Shed Shell Skarmory, which means Leftovers is easier to afford (easing the burden of using Skarmory to answer Jirachi). Jirachi just doesn't have enough power to be truly broken. Of course it's frustrating to face, but it's borderline and has been for years. Why on earth would we take action on Jirachi now, of all times, in a metagame without Dugtrio, where Heatran is better than ever, and where heavy offense and Jirachi-less superman stalls/structures are at a peak?

A couple of responses here feel like bandwagoning. If you really want to make a move on Jirachi, re-survey the eligible playerbase like we did last year and take note of the % that desire tiering action. We need to be extremely careful with a suspect like this, as the second Jirachi is on the chopping block, voting will likely be influenced by negative/flawed attitudes surrounding its attributes as opposed to genuine evaluation of its metagame standing.

DPP has reached its zenith, and any change we're permitted to make at this point has too high a risk of backfiring/not improving the metagame. Leave it alone for the foreseeable future. Our community is more vibrant than ever and Jirachee's DPP Invitational was a huge success, which couldn't have happened without the metagame being in a great spot.
 
This metagame is really, really good. Jirachi is more manageable now than it has been in years. You can come up with any drastic change you want, but it will take at least a year or two to really understand any long-term implications, like we saw with Latias's unban.
You're right that any drastic changes to the metagame may take a while to be fully realized.

Speaking from recent innovations, I strongly feel that using your own RestTalk Jirachi or Rest(Talk) Bronzong is extremely helpful in answering pretty much all Jirachi variants long term. RestTalk Steel/Psychic types allow for less reliance on Shed Shell Skarmory, which means Leftovers is easier to afford (easing the burden of using Skarmory to answer Jirachi). Jirachi just doesn't have enough power to be truly broken. Of course it's frustrating to face, but it's borderline and has been for years. Why on earth would we take action on Jirachi now, of all times, in a metagame without Dugtrio, where Heatran is better than ever, and where heavy offense and Jirachi-less superman stalls/structures are at a peak?
So there's two things here that you're addressing: i) dealing with Jirachi and ii) dealing with spore

(i) Dealing with Jira:

RestTalk Jirachi or RestTalk Bronzong are not all that reliable for answering Jirachi variants. The moment they switch in on a Fire Punch and get burnt, it then becomes a matter of whether Jirachi can flinch them to death before they rest.

(ii) Dealing with spore:

When it comes to spore, RestTalk Jirachi/Zong become primarily useful as a Breloom answer only. In other words, a sleeping RestTalk Jirachi (slept via spore) ceases to become an answer to any other physical attacker because now you don't know (1) what move is going to roll when you click sleep-talk, and (2) you could wake up the turn that you click sleep-talk. There is so much unpredictability here for these mons to be fully reliable against other threats.

Moreover, RestTalk Jira/Zong only fit on one playstyle, stall. They don't address how much of a pain Spore is to deal with when facing offense.

Regarding the bolded portion, Jirachi doesn't need the physical power to break something in one-go. If it gets 2-3 free opportunities to fully flinch something to death, then that alone is sufficient to raise eyebrows at it. And Jirachi's bulk means that it can afford to not land a flinch because it is capable of living some super effective hits while at full health. Let's also not forget how conducive sand is for compensating for Jirachi's lack of firepower. For example, even though Jirachi doesn't have the strength to muscle past a defensive Rotom or Suicune, under the presence of sand, it is perfectly capable of doing so. Although sand and Jira are separate, they go hand-in-hand, and I don't think we should ignore sand's impact when looking at Jirachi.

Heatran isn't "better than ever." Mixed Gon is an excellent mon and Heatran can sometimes let this threat in, and some offensive structures immediately lose to Mixed Gon if it gets a prediction right. If Heatran is to answer Jirachi reliable, it cannot afford to run a berry like Passho. Heatran suffers from 4MSS where sometimes if it wants to beat Latias/Clefable on a stall team, it needs explode. Heatran exploding means that now you need to stack on another answer for Jirachi.

A couple of responses here feel like bandwagoning. If you really want to make a move on Jirachi, re-survey the eligible playerbase like we did last year and take note of the % that desire tiering action. We need to be extremely careful with a suspect like this, as the second Jirachi is on the chopping block, voting will likely be influenced by negative/flawed attitudes surrounding its attributes as opposed to genuine evaluation of its metagame standing.
People bandwagoning = People seeing the light :blobthumbsup:

Yeah, we'll send out a survey to gauge the playerbase's opinion in more detail.

DPP has reached its zenith, and any change we're permitted to make at this point has too high a risk of backfiring/not improving the metagame. Leave it alone for the foreseeable future. Our community is more vibrant than ever and Jirachee's DPP Invitational was a huge success, which couldn't have happened without the metagame being in a great spot.
I don't know why you make such statements like "DPP has reached its zenith" so confidently. There's no harm in stating "I don't know" or leaving open the room for possibility that you may be wrong. This tier is still actively played and is constantly changing. And if we can make a change for the better, then we should.

You believe that the introduction of Latias has made DPP worse, or rather, I should say that you were against it. But presently, you have stated that DPP is the best it has ever been or to quote you, "this metagame is really, really good" which obviously means that there can be good changes.

Our community being vibrant and Jirachee's DPP invitational being a success does not portray a full picture of the metagame. Jirachee and Hiro (sorry if I am forgetting anyone else) managed the tour so well which played a big role in its success. This doesn't mean that Jirachee tour being a success means that the metagame is perfect.
 
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Kristyl

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I've never really been the best at getting my thoughts out there and arguing but I'll try my best to give my perspective on why I wouldn't want Jirachi banned.

DPP OU is not a perfect metagame by any means, no tier is, would banning Jirachi make it better? Maybe. Can we say with confidence that it would? I don't think so, and I don't think that DPP is bad enough for us to make such a drastic change. Personally I find it extremely unlikely that Latias and Breloom are not broken and putting even more of a strain on building then Jirachi did. Losing a revenge killer of Lucario and Scizor is also huge. Maybe new answers appear due to Jirachi being gone and adding more flexibility, but its hard for me to imagine fitting these reliably with Latias and Breloom now restricting building even more. I can't imagine not needing one of Empoleon/SpDef Meta + Pursuit Tyranitar on most teams if you want any way of dealing with Specs Latias reliably. There's a lot of offensive threats you need to check in this tier and I think Jirachi makes it easier to reliably do so.

So, if you were to ban all of Latias,Sleep and Jirachi the tier would be almost unrecognizeable and you can't really say if it would be better or worse. People seem to enjoy the tier quite a bit as is, personally I do and people seem to be have been able to reach consistency in this tier. Of course Jirachi moments happen but I feel like people have adapted well and I see it less and less, hell I feel like Gyarados is becoming more notorious for robbing games lol. This game seems to have prompted the discussion in the first place but honestly I feel like this is more a team building issue then Jirachi being stupid. If Jirachi was teched for the opposing Jirachi with Lum and was packing some way to hit it harder then with Thunderbolt, Soulwind could've been completely fine. Also if it was Dragonite last which it usually is maybe going to that would've been a better line.

I genuinely think if anything should be suspect tested or banned it should be Clefable. BIHI already talked about this a bit and I agree with him fully. Clefable restricts building a lot and honestly makes Jirachi even more broken with Knock Off. Personally I think Encore really pushes it over the edge and limits anti-stall tactics quite a bit (think of setup sweepers like the DD mons and Sub CM mons) Thunder Wave is also extremely busted on Clefable. Cosmic Power sets popping up more recently are very very scary and can often force you into a really bad trade since the limited ways of stopping its setup (Trick or Boom basically, Breloom too ig). It can also use Bold which is super difficult to deal with honestly and adds another dimension to its move sets. I don't know if I actually want it banned but if people are unhappy with the tier I urge you to consider Clefable as a viable option to ban since it would probably have less collateral then banning Jirachi would.

With all that being said if a poll is done and the player base wants to suspect test Jirachi who am I to tell them no? Maybe we could have an SPL without Jirachi to see how things play out (not that you can know long term consequences off one tournament but yea). Personally I enjoy the tier quite a bit right now and I feel its quite competitive, which is proven by the consistency people have found in it imo, I also still see lots of creativity in building.

Don't get me wrong I absolutely see why people think Jirachi is broken and it is 100% borderline to me but I do believe its manageable enough.
We should absolutely be able to just ban Iron Head. I think everyone who plays the tier agrees on that and thinks it would be a better alternative. Guess its not possible under tiering policy though which is pretty lame. Personally I don't see how banning Iron Head is "playing an OM" or modifying the game too much when sleep clause exists.

tldr; dpp is pretty good and this would be a drastic unpredictable change which i dont think is worth pursuing.

Also just saying Bo3 greatly helps when it comes to limiting Jirachi BS, genuinely don't know why anyone would argue against its inclusion in SPL.

+ free dry pass!
 
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mael

not the same but equal
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kristyl has already made some really good points but i can't stress enough how good of a metagame dpp is. you have consistent teams that you can use pretty much every game to outplay, yet you have plenty of room for creativity and using different stuff, while still covering most of the metagame super well (there's not many tiers that can say they don't need to fish for the opponent not using certains that beat them (and also aren't wildly obscure (in fact in some cases metagame standards.))) there's way less of a rock paper scissor element to it than in some other gens. by making a drastic change you have no idea how that'll impact the tier and odds of making it better are not good. i don't know how people can confidently state that it would make the tier better when the consequences are so massive. just think for one second about how long it took until latis influence on the tier became clear and that was if you ask me way less drastic.

on top of that i think part of the issue why so many people struggle with jirachi is certainly the tendency for people to use lazy offensive teams and not make necessary well-directed adaptions. i rarely ever feel like i am losing the game to rachi bullshitting me. there's way worse things with maybe slightly lower odds but way higher effect on the outcome, like machamp, lati twaves vs ttar or paralysis in general for that matter, gengars focus blast nonsense, gyarados (subjectively i feel like gyarados flinches decide dpp games more often than rachi flinches, but i do not have the numbers nor is it easy to quantify that) but that probably is due to the nature of teams (and items) i use. i do feel like some people would rather scream out for a ban instead of making the adaptions. i don't even think that rachi is a good pick on many compositions due to how it fares into stall. but yea wishtect rachi is gonna hard wall offense teams unless they come prepared.

but i do get the complaints and i am generally in favour of removing rng elements, even if jirachi might be the one exception. we (the council) will certainly conduct a survey and if an overwhelming majority wants to have something done we will do something. as of now it seems like the only thing that is permitted to us is a jirachi ban (instead of iron head ban) which i find not too consistent with other ruling but i also do not make the rules here. if we can get an iron head ban on the table i would be on board with testing it.

side note: if it was purely on me i would add a paralysis clause, that works the same way as a sleep and freeze clause (both of which are game mods btw and don't hit me w the pokemon stadium 1998 game cause that is obscure and wildly different from what we're playing). i think that would for many people solve (or at least ameliorate) the rachi and gyarados issue, it would solve the machamp issue and it would remove the way worse offender of bullshitting wins u should not have gotten. but when i suggested that i was immediately told that it was not gonna happen :blobshrug:
 
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I personally see no reason to try to make a good tier better via anything that risks making it worse. The pool of viable pokemon is large, the frequency of high tier pokemon is high enough to guard from matchup fishing via stabilizing team structures and tempering expectations, and low enough to allow ample slots for lower-tiered pokemon to slip in and shine; the variance and viability of differing teamstyles is high; the level of protection and contingency in relation to hax is for the most part high, or at the very least good. Nothing should be banned, not because of legacy or precedents or policy or any worry of floodgates opening, but because the current state of the tier is sufficient, and the level of improvement to be achieved is not worth the potential of the opposite that any given solution risks inviting.

That being said, if you are to ban anything, then blanket ban all moves with a flinch chance of 20% or higher. Jirachi Iron Head / potential Zen Headbutt and Gyarados (+ sometimes pert) Waterfall are the primary antagonists towards this tier's hax robustness.
Banning Waterfall is throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's not 60% of the time like Jirachi's Iron Head, it's just 20% which is negligible when compared to how useful and easy Jirachi is and how many more roles it can fulfill + enable. Aqua Tail isn't an acceptable alternative when they give it a 10% miss chance with no upside for no good reason. It's unreasonable to ask for that sort of policy just because Jirachi itself gets a cheater combo. You'd be better off asking for the Iron Head + Serene Grace ban which is spit on because of bureaucracy (but not Sand Force complex ban in BW). Banning the move on Jirachi isn't going to destabilize all tiering and it's a better idea than removing the Mon and going through the headache of debating who is next because the board was disturbed so drastically

I've never really been the best at getting my thoughts out there and arguing but I'll try my best to give my perspective on why I wouldn't want Jirachi banned.



DPP OU is not a perfect metagame by any means, no tier is, would banning Jirachi make it better? Maybe. Can we say with confidence that it would? I don't think so, and I don't think that DPP is bad enough for us to make such a drastic change. Personally I find it extremely unlikely that Latias and Breloom are not broken and putting even more of a strain on building then Jirachi did. Losing a revenge killer of Lucario and Scizor is also huge. Maybe new answers appear due to Jirachi being gone and adding more flexibility, but its hard for me to imagine fitting these reliably with Latias and Breloom now restricting building even more. I can't imagine not needing one of Empoleon/SpDef Meta + Pursuit Tyranitar on most teams if you want any way of dealing with Specs Latias reliably. There's a lot of offensive threats you need to check in this tier and I think Jirachi makes it easier to reliably do so.



So, if you were to ban all of Latias,Sleep and Jirachi the tier would be almost unrecognizeable and you can't really say if it would be better or worse. People seem to enjoy the tier quite a bit as is, personally I do and people seem to be have been able to reach consistency in this tier. Of course Jirachi moments happen but I feel like people have adapted well and I see it less and less, hell I feel like Gyarados is becoming more notorious for robbing games lol. This game seems to have prompted the discussion in the first place but honestly I feel like this is more a team building issue then Jirachi being stupid. If Jirachi was teched for the opposing Jirachi with Lum and was packing some way to hit it harder then with Thunderbolt, Soulwind could've been completely fine. Also if it was Dragonite last which it usually is maybe going to that would've been a better line.



I genuinely think if anything should be suspect tested or banned it should be Clefable. BIHI already talked about this a bit and I agree with him fully. Clefable restricts building a lot and honestly makes Jirachi even more broken with Knock Off. Personally I think Encore really pushes it over the edge and limits anti-stall tactics quite a bit (think of setup sweepers like the DD mons and Sub CM mons) Thunder Wave is also extremely busted on Clefable. Cosmic Power sets popping up more recently are very very scary and can often force you into a really bad trade since the limited ways of stopping its setup (Trick or Boom basically, Breloom too ig). It can also use Bold which is super difficult to deal with honestly and adds another dimension to its move sets. I don't know if I actually want it banned but if people are unhappy with the tier I urge you to consider Clefable as a viable option to ban since it would probably have less collateral then banning Jirachi would.



With all that being said if a poll is done and the player base wants to suspect test Jirachi who am I to tell them no? Maybe we could have an SPL without Jirachi to see how things play out (not that you can know long term consequences off one tournament but yea). Personally I enjoy the tier quite a bit right now and I feel its quite competitive, which is proven by the consistency people have found in it imo, I also still see lots of creativity in building.



Don't get me wrong I absolutely see why people think Jirachi is broken and it is 100% borderline to me but I do believe its manageable enough.

We should absolutely be able to just ban Iron Head. I think everyone who plays the tier agrees on that and thinks it would be a better alternative. Guess its not possible under tiering policy though which is pretty lame. Personally I don't see how banning Iron Head is "playing an OM" or modifying the game too much when sleep clause exists.



tldr; dpp is pretty good and this would be a drastic unpredictable change which i dont think is worth pursuing.



Also just saying Bo3 greatly helps when it comes to limiting Jirachi BS, genuinely don't know why anyone would argue against its inclusion in SPL.



+ free dry pass!
Bo3 is great and dry pass is good. If Baton Pass can get one hundred complex bans around it then letting the move + no boosts in is fine
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
I would like to ask if there would be a possibility of running a Jirachi-banned tournament to test the waters of this potential meta before any actions are made. It could help drum up interest in this topic and it would be perfect to gauge if a Rachi ban would positively help DPP OU or if the meta would immediately take a nosedive. Doesn't even have to be for suspect requirements or anything but that would be a plus for people who do well in it lol
 

Conflict

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DPP is fun and really good rn - doesnt really need any changes imo.

I think IF we ban Jirachi we also NEED to get clef outta here cuz clef is cancer and has way too much utility (+ broken mguard) and with Rachi gone thats 1 less Mon that can beat Clef somewhat consistently. Just feel like a Rachi-ban would open the floodgates and wed have to ban a shitton more afterwards(clef for sure, potentially latias and even loom/sleep; without sleep roserade gets even worse etc.). Just feels like a cascade of change.
(Kristyl's post is quite good btw and mirrors a lof of my own thoughts. I also think Clef is somewhat broken but the meta rn has adapted to it quite well so it doesnt feel as oppressive anymore).

I also feel like Rachi defines DPP as is and has for the past 13+ years and changing that now and therefore changing DPP's whole outlook just feels wrong and would invalidate a lot of teams. At a certain point we should keep Gens as is especially when it comes to meta defining threats.

Only change i would potentially be on board with is a ban of Ihead and frends but so long as that isnt on the table id honestly prefer the current meta (which is pretty good and makes DPP one of the current best old gens imo).
 

Le Don

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It's not 60% of the time like Jirachi's Iron Head, it's just 20% which is negligible when compared to how useful and easy Jirachi is and how many more roles it can fulfill + enable ( that's why Gyarados is a offense / HO pillar lol ).
I saw too many people writing that and it's honestly just showing ignorance about the tier. The purpose of this post isn't to determine if Waterfall / Iron Head need to go ( but yh it will help indirectly you to make a choice and have your proper opinion about this case ).

First, one Gyarados flinch ( and crit lol ) is way more dramatic than one Jirachi flinch ( that's why Scarf Magneton >>> Scarf Magnezone ) just because of DD ( Waterfall would never have been a problem if Gyarados didn't have DD ) allowing it at +1 in atk to 2HKO almost every mon in the tier after rocks ( Metagross, Jirachi, Zapdos, Bronzong, Machamp, Swampert, Rotom etc etc ) and to outspeed everything in the tier except Scarfers and Aerodactyl ( which is never used in the back ). Even pokemons that resist Waterfall can get bs by it and it's even worse if Gyarados is using TWave to shutdown Scarfers like Rotom / Latias and more annoying pokemons. Then you can comeback later and DD on something and win the game with or without a flinch ( flinch needed or not i mean ).

Second, Waterfall is a Water move aka a very very good offensive typing whereas Iron Head is a Steel move aka a shit offensive typing. You need a lot of flinches to get rid of a non-Leftovers Metagross / Heatran for ex ( sub x para helps ofc ). If the Steel type is carrying Leftovers and a Super-Effective move like EQ then Jirachi is hard walled and force out ( I don't count HP Ground Jirachi in the equation ). Gyarados will NEVER be walled thx to its very good coverage, unless you're using Quag and EVEN Quag can die to a +1 Return crit ( I don't count Taunt ).

Third, watch these replays and admire Gyarados power ( I'm ofc missing some so if you suggestions tell me so I can edit later :blobthumbsup: ) :

Only from R5 of DPP Cup :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1922245022-9kbqz7o1bnwn1xmyvegilihg1bes184pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-709208
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1920476214

Ofc Jirachi can do the same but I don't think ONE IHead flinch can end the game like Waterfall can so you need more flinches and so more you try to flinch more your opp will have a higher chance to use a super effective move / TWave etc.

Nothing personal ofc but please everyone stop comparing Waterfall to Iron Head cause it's not comparable : not on the same mons which don't have the same roles, not the same typing, not the same flinch chance so they're not the same moves.
 
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