DPP UU Tiering Discussion (was: Perma Weather in DPP UU)

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Good evening,

I created this thread to address the topic of permanent weather (sand/hail) in DPP UU. In the following, I will outline the state of both in the current metagame.

RE: Sand :hippopotas:

Sand in DPP UU is a strategy that exhibits plenty of uncompetitiveness. The main reason for using sand in DPP UU and he most infuriating aspect about it is Sand Veil, which, in perma sand, I hardly need tell you is an utterly chance based ability with no reliable counter play available whatsoever. Frankly, it's ridiculous we let this slide for so long and with the tier lock for old generations having recently been lifted, I don't see any good reason to not go ahead with an outright ban. Sand Veil in perma sand has eluded the Evasion Clause for far too long and it's time we erase it for good.

Now, for the details. Personally, I don't think it should be even up for debate whether Sand Veil in perma sand should be allowed since it clearly violates Evasion Clause but if we want to preserve Pokémon whose only ability is Sand Veil (read: Cacturne) then the preferred course of action should be looking at Sand Stream to avoid any complex bans. On the other hand, one could argue that sand without Sand Veil is neither uncompetitive nor broken and that strategies around Curse Cradily for example should be preserved instead. In the end, it boils down to what we want to preserve: Sand Stream with Sand Veil banned or Sand Veil outside of sand. Either way, something has to happen.

RE: Hail :snover:

First off, unlike Sand Veil, Walrein or the concept of hail stall is not classically uncompetitive. The strategies it revolves around aren't chance based. These sets are obnoxious to face but they are somewhat predictable and there exist viable countermeasures (CurseTalk Registeel, Refresh Milotic, Calm Mind Clefable) to the respective sets. Hail stall is not comparable to Arena Trap/Shadow Tag either where the opponent is bereft of the most basic form of counter play - switching out. Such a restriction is not placed upon the opponent here and I felt that it needed to be made clear first that the term "uncompetitive" does not describe the issue with hail adequately. However, if executed correctly, Walrein gets a minimum of 32 turns dealing 6% of damage every turn to the opposition via hail without risk of losing any HP itself. In theory, this accumulates to 200% or two full health bars worth of "free damage" to the opposing team but, realistically, this damage number varies quite a lot. Thanks to Substitute, Walrein gets opportunities where it can throw out attacks while the oppononent is preoccupied with breaking the Substitute. This is utilized to slowly whittle down Pokémon with Leftovers with hail damage effectively denying passive recovery and Walrein attacking when it gets the chance to. Many offensively inclined teams (which constitute a majority of the metagame) without solid defensive backbones to rely on often simply get farmed by Walrein once it's set up. Such teams will often forgo their hail matchup to some extent and instead focus on limiting the opportunities Walrein gets during the game. While hail is certainly not un-combatable in the builder, it should be pointed out that there aren't exactly an abundance of countermeasures for combatting hail stall reliably - particularly on offense. Variants of hail stall can generally broken down into strategies built around different Walrein sets, most notably SubProTox, SubRoar, SubFang or even SubEncore. These are frequently paired with Spikes or T-Spikes support, taking advantage of switches that Walrein forces and further adding to the slow and methodical accumulation of chip damage.

Originally, I intended to make this point about Sand Veil only but since there is a fair bit of consensus in the playerbase about Hail constituting an undesirable element of the metagame, I opted to increase the scope of this thread. Still, there is a discussion to be had about Snow Warning/Walrein first since I don't think it's as clear-cut a case as with the situation of Sand Veil in permanent sand for which there is simply no reasonable argument for keeping around. Similarly, if we opt for a Walrein ban instead of Snow Warning or decide not do anything about hail after all, we might still want to look at Snow Cloak (Glaceon, Piloswine) which, despite not being used, still violates Evasion Clause. In any case, we need to assess first whether hail truly constitutes a problem in the current metagame. Should we agree that it does, the question becomes do we deem Walrein's abilities overpowered or is Snow Warning the perpetrator as it enables this playstyle in the first place? Walrein outside of hail clearly isn't broken but, on the other hand, hail without Walrein in all likelihood isn't broken either.

With all that out of the way here is a summary of our options moving forward:

:hippopotas: Re: Sand :hippopotas:

1) Ban Sand Stream from DPP UU.


Bye Hippopotas.

2) Ban Sand Veil from DPP UU.

This effectively preserves sand variants not centered around Sand Veil. However, Cacturne gets caught in the crossfire and becomes unusable.

3) Ban Sand Stream + Sand Veil from DPP UU.

While this is a complex ban, this too preserves sand variants not centered around Sand Veil, notably without any collateral.

Note that one of these arguably needs to be implemented because Sand Veil violates Evasion Clause.

:snover: Re: Hail :snover:

1) Ban Snow Warning from DPP UU.


Bye Snover.

2) Ban Walrein from DPP UU.

Bye Walrein.

3) Do nothing.

Hail remains as is.

Depending on whether we care about consistency and removing Snow Cloak as well there are some more options outlined in the hide tag below.

1) Ban Snow Warning from DPP UU.

Bye Snover.

2) Ban Snow Cloak from DPP UU.

This effectively preserves hail stall as is. However, Glaceon gets caught in the crossfire and becomes unusable.

3) Ban Snow Cloak and Walrein from DPP UU.

This preserves permanent hail for whatever reason but hail stall is likely done fore. Obviously, this should only be done if we deem Walrein broken.

4) Ban Snow Warning + Snow Cloak from DPP UU.

While this is a complex ban, this too preserves hail stall, notably without any collateral.

5) Ban Snow Warning + Snow Cloak and Walrein from DPP UU.

This preserves permanent hail and Glaceon outside of hail but hail stall is likely done for. This too should only be done if we deem Walrein broken.

Again, one of these arguably needs to be implemented because Snow Cloak violates Evasion Clause.

Ideally, we can settle on a decision before UU Classic starts but I realize this is a bit of a far shot since a process like this takes time. Still, we can set an example and remove these undesirable elements from this iteration of UU Classic preemptively to create a healthier, more enjoyable playing experience. The games played in this years UU Classic can be the foundation of moving in the right direction with the tier.

As for the voter list, here's a preliminary one:

UUPL IX (at least 2 games played, at least 1 win)
TonyFlygon
Heysup
Donphantastic
fatty
Thiago Nunes
Chill Shadow
Tomahawk
JabbaTheGriffin
esche

UUSD I (at least 2 games played, at least 1 win)
MrAldo
Leru
atomicllamas
TSR

UUWC I (at least 1 win)
luisotte
Estarossa
Emeral
byronthewellwell
DrReuniclus

DPP Cup IV (semi-finalists)
Amukamara
LpZ
pokemonisfun
ramolost

DPPPL I (still ongoing, at least 1 win)
Accel
M Dragon
BKC
Malekith
Ark
Lilburr

Other people that should get a say in this but haven't had any recent tournament showings from what I can tell:

august
Eo Ut Mortus
Oglemi
Kushalos
col49

This list would leave us with 34 eligible voters. We could go back further to previous iterations of UUPL and UU Classic to increase this number.

Replays:


What are your thoughts about Sand Stream/Sand Veil and Snow Warning/Walrein in DPP UU and do they warrant a ban?
 
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Eo Ut Mortus

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Disagree with Hail being banned. I don't think any case has been made as to how it breaks anything; in fact, the only argument that's really offered is that it farms a lot of offense teams. I think Hail makes it less reasonable to run mono-LO/Choice due to the residual effect, but it's not the only thing that makes these builds less viable, and I don't think that it's unfair to say offense has to accept that it must maintain momentum for most of the game or run some sort of recovery, even if it's just as small as Leftovers on a Pokemon or two, for additional leeway should Walrein get a Substitute up. In fact, half the replays offered show Hail being run through by these teams without having to sacrifice much offense if any at all; if that's not evidence of sufficient offensive counterplay, I don't know what is. In particular, SD Venusaur, also featured here, gives notoriously good odds against Hail because most of its checks rely on weather-based recovery and so cannot be used on Hail teams. The diversity found among the Hail teams shown also signals that Hail has been forced to adapt to retain its viability, a stark difference from a couple of years ago when the style featured only two really viable teams (one of which is exposed for its datedness here). Even if you aren't convinced Hail isn't broken, surely this should be a cue to wait and see how the metagame continues to develop around it. All that said, the argument made here seems strikingly reminiscent of the line of argumentation that led to the SM UU Quagsire vote, where people simply do not want to sacrifice anything to deal with an off-meta threat in the builder, and I don't think that's a good reason to proceed with a ban.

I don't really care about Sand Veil, but I'm against complex bans of any sort. I think complex bans are shortsighted, and every complex ban administered in DPP OU has been a mistake. I hope UU does not follow the same path. Cacturne is viable but not something we will miss in a couple of months post-ban should Sand Veil be banned. That said, I'm surprised Baton Pass (or Gligar) isn't the subject being evaluated when it's soft-banned in every tournament these days anyway and facilitates the most (possibly the only) threatening sand teams.
 

Oglemi

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A ban on Sand Veil and Snow Cloak would be fine and overall unproblematic for the tier, Cacturne, Sandslash, and Glaceon are never seen or used, with the latter only seeing sparse use on HO hail teams as a gimmicky Specs breaker or abusing Snow Cloak with SubProtect. That said I also don't think it needs to happen but I wouldn't be upset at it happening.

I don't have much more to say other than I in no way feel either strategy is broken as a whole. Hail has a ton of counterplay both in and out of the builder. Continuous good double switches can prevent Walrein from ever achieving anything, and it being SR and spikes weak mean it's relatively easy to wear down even with all its passive recovery; plus it's easy enough to adapt your gameplan to conserve your Walrein answer since Snover needs to make an appearance, and it's usually best to bring it out early to prevent it from being just a sack. Hail teams have an inherent weakness in being unable to cover every offensive threat in the tier since neither Snover nor Walrein really actually offer much in the way of defensively covering threats, meaning the team has a whole 4 slots to deal with one of the largest pools of viable pokemon in nearly any tier, most commonly being horribly weak to Fighters like Blaziken and especially Toxicroak.
 

Iguana

formerly mc56556
Always happy to see discussion on DPP UU and how to improve one of the best tiers there is. :)

I understand the rationale for wanting to ban Snow Cloak and Sand Veil. Personally, I don't find either to be significantly problematic in the tier, but they are uncompetitive abilities. Sand Veil in particular I can think of no issues in banning, and so I agree with Oglemi here that bans on both wouldn't really damage the metagame (indeed, they may well improve it).

I separated Snow Cloak/Sand Veil from Snow Warning/Sand Stream for a reason. I am strongly opposed to banning either Sand or Hail from the DPP UU metagame. Sand in particular lends itself to a variety of playstyles and teams; these include everything from Cradily sweep teams (Curse + SpD boost from perma Sand make Cradily quite potent), to Hippopotas stall teams, to Gligar offense, to more. I think eliminating Sand Stream from the metagame would restrict the beautiful array of possibilities players have at their disposal in DPP UU. While Hail is probably more limited in its breadth of teams, I see little reason to ban Snow Warning from the metagame. Walrein can be annoying with Ice Body + perma Hail, but its ability is not uncompetitive or unhealthy. Certainly not in the same way that an evasion-boosting ability like Sand Veil or Snow Cloak is.

I mean no disrespect, but I'm not seeing the case for either Sand or Hail being banned here. There are ample ways to combat both weathers, with a variety of teams to boot. And outside of their connections with Snow Cloak and Sand Veil, both of which can be remedied by either a complex ban or by just outright banning them, I don't see what's even that problematic. I respect the desire to start this thread, particularly when uncompetitive abilities exist in the metagame, but if this eventually results in a ban of either Hail or Sand, I think it would do far greater harm to the metagame than it would do it good.

I'll lastly pose a question in this discussion for us to ponder: Are the issues surrounding Sand Veil and Snow Cloak significant enough that each deserves a ban, or is this more of a hypothetical, philosophical problem with the abilities since they are technically uncompetitive?
 

Donphantastic

I'm Donny P. (W)
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Proxy posting on behalf of NEON_Voyager who doesn't have perms to post themselves

ima post my thoughts on perma weather hear, i play this tier and love it to bits, and whilst my only tournament play and credentials is having the second best record in the roa spotlight tour. i still feel like i'd share my thoughts on the matter.

first sand: sand is uncompetetive and needs to be axed, no disagreement with the op, its existence feels archaic and an indication of the age of the tier. i feel the best course of action, fundamentally, would be the complex ban, as it preserves both cacturne and curse cradily. however, if that is not possible then i feel that preserving cacturne is more important, as curse cradily strategies contribute nothing to the metagame as a whole, whilst the option of a another spiker does, however small or niche.

next, hail: whilst originally i believed that i would be in favour of a ban, however, i do not feel like a strong enough argument has been presented thus far, and i also believe that i am unable myself to create one. the argument that it beats common offense teams and takes a while to do it doesn't feel adequate. offence definitely can slot things to help vs walrein, for example, walrein's stealth rock weakness mean that with rocks up, first of all, it has difficulty finding free turns to set up its onslaught, and secondly, can be phazed out, for sometimes very little cost, and now has to find another opportunity to set up. curse talk registeel, which beats walrein is also a very good mon and will naturally find itself on alot of teams, meaning teams do not have to go out of their way to find answers (their are also other answers that find themselves commonly on teams). snow cloak should absolutely be banned for competitiveness and consistency, as i have said before, glaceon getting caught in the crossfire is not a real problem. thanks for reading
 
I feel like I should share my opinion having played this tier in both UUPL and UUSD, but I will try to avoid repeating what has been said before and keep it as concise as possible. If anything is unclear, feel free to let me know and I will edit this post to clarify.

I personally have less problems with luck-based strategies than most players probably. I believe we are simply playing a luck-based game, and part of playing this game is aiming for consistency among many games. Any single game can be influenced by many forms of luck (crits, freezes, flinches, matchup, 50/50s), but the more games you play the more it evens with regards to how you can manage this. This is why just something being luck-based is less of a problem in my eyes than something that is luck-based, but also consistently good. In this case, I don't think there is really a point to banning Snow Cloak: there is just no way to consistently abuse it. I guess you would be looking towards Sub Piloswine or Sub Glaceon, but I don't think I have to go indepth on why this is not gonna pay off. I think in competitive games, strategies like this are filtered out anyway because people want to maximize their odds to win. On the other hand, I think Sand Veil can perform consistently, with the main reason it not being used as much probably relating to players because it's not why people enjoy this tier and it being 'not done'. Because of this, I support looking at Sand Veil. I personally prefer just going with the complex ban (if something is done), but I can definitely understand the arguments against it. I want to note though, that Cacturne is not as unviable as stated by Oglemi. It's not a big player, but from playing with / against it a bit last few months it's actually solid. Both ways are fine with me though, the impact is indeed not major either way. (By the way, I can understand banning Snow Cloak along with Sand Veil to keep things consistent on a philosophical level, but practically I think there is just no need for this.)

I agree with Eo mostly on Hail, I am not really convinced this is either broken or uncompetitive. As for Baton Pass (and I guess Damp Rock), these probably should be discussed separately to not clutter up this thread - I personally think the current clause is fine but since it is getting completely banned for most tournaments anyway it might be worth to just get this straightened out.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
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Imagine wanting to nerf weather in DPP UU and not even mentioning broken ass rain....

Anyhow, going to be brief because on mobile. I would likely oppose a Hail or Sand Stream ban for the reasons Eo brought up, but Sand Veil is stupid as hell and should definitely go. I'd even go as far as to say that Sand Veil is what made BP in DPP UU so stupid for a stretch, back during that classic when Pearl was spamming GligarPass. I see no reason to go out of our way to come up with some complex ban just to preserve Cacturne here.
 
Generally I lump Hail in with Rain and Screens in terms of just random cheese teams that are huge match up fishes but definitely have some counter play. While I admittedly frequently carry random Sunny Day etc. just to mess with Stallrein, I do think it is possible to play around hail even with offense as long as you build in some counter play. If you completely ignore a playstyle, then that's your own fault. That being said, I would not actually be upset if Snover was banned just because generally I think hail takes this match up based crutch to the highest degree. I think there is enough subjectivity in whether or not it is "uncompetitive" that you could justify that ban in today's day and age.

Sand Veil is a different story because the counter play is strictly being another weather team (which isn't great because perma weather > rain and snover takes x2 from SR and Hippo takes half) or using AAce Scyther (which alone has counter play). Otherwise you are just relying on the RNG to beat it, and while technically it is in your favour it's a really shitty feeling when you miss Ice Beam and just lose despite playing perfectly. I think this is more along the lines of fitting within the rationale for the existence of evasion clause and I would support a Hippopotas ban. Unlike hail, I think Sand was just something that wasn't used out of a shared sentiment that "you just don't use it", and if it was used, it would have likely been banned.
 
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I consider DPP UU hail analogous to extreme forms of Baton Pass across multiple generations. Most people find such BP strategies broken / undesirable elements to have in a metagame, but even they would agree that the style is flawed, inconsistent and can be ruined if you go out of your way to deal with it. However, that doesn't mean it's not broken; it's a problem because it is difficult to deal with it in the teambuilder while trying to accomplish the already-difficult task of dealing with the rest of the metagame.

As such, I don't think the arguments that hail is flawed defensively hold too much weight. Of course starting your team with Snover and Walrein is not going to make for the most consistent team in the world. Why, then, is hail used? Because attempting to survive the opposing team's offense with a four-Pokemon defensive core is:

1. not the most difficult thing to do against most teams - a lot aren't exactly filled to the brim with offense. Even the more offensive teams are quite manageable, especially with the aggressive approaches hail teams often employ (boom Registeel, Duggy) to make up for their inability to permanently wall; these can also open up holes in teams with greater longevity, and generally help Walrein close the door on the game even more easily.

2) entirely worth it when you send in Stallrein; it is the closest thing to an auto-win button UU has, dominating an enormous portion of the tier, and thus I would argue it should not have a place in the metagame - it doesn't even require particularly elaborate setup. Leading off with Snover can sometimes be enough. Getting up hazards afterwards is standard fare and helps against teams that run more Leftovers.

Sure, you can run things like Sunny Day Moltres on offense, but offensive teams should not have to choose between including such moves and risking a near-automatic loss if the opponent decides to lead with Snover and is halfway competent. Offensive teams are not nearly so overwhelming that we need hail's presence to dissuade them from being used. Popular balance teams that have more in the way of longevity can be utterly ruined by Walrein, too. Roar sets ruin even the Pokemon that try to sit on Walrein - Refresh Milotic, Rest Registeel, many Clefable variants - by dragging in and KOing everything else.

Just like extreme forms of Baton Pass in other generations, DPP UU hail only exists to try and grab a free win against many teams that cannot reasonably prepare for it without compromising themselves against the rest of the metagame. It is a risky strategy, but the payoff is often worth it, especially (but not limited to) when it is unexpected. It adds nothing but a powerful matchup fishing element to the tier. We should try to limit these in our metagames for competitiveness' sake. Ban hail.

Also, everything I just wrote about hail applies to rain as well. Let's get rid of Damp Rock, please.

Finally, I don't care if it's a Sand Stream or Sand Veil ban, but Cacturne dodging Ice Beams does not belong in this tier. I would support action against certain Baton Pass antics as well. Afterwards, DPP UU will be (nearly) perfect - I know there are some valid complaints about Dugtrio or Venusaur or something, but they are a far cry from the matchup-baiting nonsense of these strategies.
 
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Honestly, the biggest issue I have with DPP UU is that tournaments like UUPL manually implement tiering changes like banning Baton Pass, even though it's actually legal in the tier. The team builder should reflect the options you have in the tournament you're playing in. In the DPP Cup for UU Classic you can use Baton Pass, so long as it's on only one Pokemon and you're not passing Speed + another stat. Not only is this a gnarly complex ban, but it's also giving us two different DPP UU metagames that get played between various UU tournaments, which we should really avoid. I know the purpose of this thread is to talk about weather, but I think the best first step to take in DPP UU is outright banning the move Baton Pass.

As for weather, I'm in favor of making changes there, too. I actually played and built DPP UU in UUPL this year and explored a Sand Veil based team for one of my games. The game did not end up getting done, but the team I prepared has since been used in other DPP UU games such as this one. Something has to be done and the least invasive solution to me is banning Sand Veil. Although Cacturne effectively gets banned, you're maintaining the option of weather control against Snow Warning, Rain Dance and Sunny Day teams, while also enabling interesting combinations like Sand Stream + Curse Cradily and/or Calm Mind Clefable without Sand Veil Gligar dodging everything.. Targeting Sand Stream/Hippopotas is fine with me as well if that's strongly preferred.

I can see the arguments for Snow Warning, Damp Rock and Arena Trap, too, though I'd definitely start with Baton Pass and Sand Veil if anything. Those are the urgent issues to address, in my opinion.
 

Donphantastic

I'm Donny P. (W)
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Typing this up before coffee so please excuse any poor phrasing/ spelling

On baton pass: Yes please ban that garbage, modern tiering updates almost always include a full on BP ban and I think we should follow suit. We've had more than enough time to experience the tier without it thanks to UUPL being bold enough to do so, and I think it is the preferred ruleset.

On Sandveil/Sandstream: Sandveil spam is an uncompetitive and gross component of the meta and attempts to cheese out wins via just dodging moves that shouldbe dodged as often, it does nothing but add RNG to games, and should be dealt with. I'd rather nix the weather setter itself since I think that permaweather is just something that should not exist in the tier, but I might be in the minority with this opinion. Imo spikes cacturne is a completely viable setter outside of sand and I would like to see it continue to be allowed to exist.

On Hail/Rain: Mostly echoing BKC here but that is because he hit the nail on the head. Yes you CAN prep for stallrein/rain if you wanted to in the builder, but doing so will almost always be at detriment to the metagame at large. As someone who pretty much exclusively uses offensive teams I naturally have positive MU's more often than not vs hail while suffering vs rain, and this is because often times these two styles have opposite things that would beat them down to their playstyle as fat balance/stall in hails case and HO in rains. Covering both in 6 slots while still having a functional team puts a massive strain on the builder and leads to less pokemon overall being viable. In my ideal world we ban Baton pass/ Sand Stream/ Snow Warning AND Damp Rock, letting this tier which is known for its variety in mons and sets continue to do just that.

P.s. BKC mentioned that walrein behind a sub in hail is the closest thing to an autowin button, I'd argue that +2 Kabutops in rain is just as close.
 
Idk if my replays should be used as example LOL i literally relied in outplay in both games with a lot of crackhead sets, even got a bit lucky to set my winning odds a bit easier. In my experience, though, i can tell you COULD consider sand veil/snow cloak uncompetitive, but seems just a mistake to me to just remove weather abilities entirely, they are nothing but another strat to consider if you wanna bring fun stuff and even get to have limited solid options during the teambuilding process. I feel like hail is just another way to lowkey abuse of stall, too, so i personally would not touch it and keep the metagame as diverse as it can be. Dugtrio is prob an issue tho, it should not be available in UU.
 
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M Dragon

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I have always thought that perm weather abilities should be banned in DPP UU.
Hippo and Snover are 2 awful mons and their only use is setting up perm sand or perm hail, which makes pokemons with sand veil or snow cloak stupid.
 

fatty

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NUPL Champion
perma weather is broken / unhealthy / whatever term makes you feel better; at the end of the day it's not good for this tier. the structures that make up both hail and sand dominate most traditional dpp uu builds and the measures needed to safely combat these strats streamline builds to the point where you're worse vs everything else. to exasperate the issue, i feel like most people dont bring these builds out of sheer respect, meaning you're typically prepping for other things and essentially punting on weather. the resurgence (is surgence a word? coz clef def wasnt cool before) of clef makes for another easy slap on these squads as well, compounding whats already a tough mon to deal with into a whole different issue. continually, i don't recall another tier where weather dependent healing moves are as important, which means auto weather severely fucks with any longevity a non regimilo squad will have. i don't think the weather issue stops here, though, because rain has been and will continue to be an issue. personally, id just say fuck it and find a way to ban all weather. this tier has consistently been near the top of peoples favorite list due to balance and "fun factor" and i feel like weather is creating a big enough rift right now to really screw that up. ban weather, save dpp uu.
 
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Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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I definitely get the arguments for wanting to ban all of the weathers but from a tiering perspective at least, I don't really think approaching them all at once is necessary, especially with a tier that's quite old at this stage and is very well-liked in its current stage.

I love this tier and would completely support a Sand Veil ban at the very least, that ability has no place in any competitive tier really but especially not tiers with permasand. I don't think there have really been any great arguments against banning it; I wouldn't want to ban Sand Stream outright, I don't think there's any necessity to do that - I don't think most of us would agree that CM Clef or Curse Cradily under sand are broken alone, and if they are then looking at the mons themselves is probably the way to go.

As for Hail I'm not really sure. I agree that the walrus is generally bullshit but it's pretty much just Walrein that makes hail broken - there is variety in hail builds out there and you'll see a lot of super different mons on them, going through some of the replays linked in the OP there are literally 0 mons that appear across all teams other than Snover and Walrein. From that angle it's kinda hard to pick out how to act on it if action should be taken at all; do you ban Snow Warning? Or Ice Body? Or even just Walrein outright? I don't feel like any of these options are particularly great. If people do want action taken on hail then I'd like to see what they think the optimal way to approach the ban would be; Snow Warning is probably cleanest but it does feel a bit dishonest when the problem is really Walrein and we wouldn't be banning Sand Stream either so the consistency is quite odd.

No real comment on Rain from me, it's very strong but for one reason or another you don't really see it these days. Maybe it's a sense of honour among the playerbase or maybe they just don't see it as as consistent as they used to - I would completely agree that +2 Kabutops is pretty much an autowin if you have enough turns, though.

Finally @ Baton Pass I think it's a stupid move that should be gone from virtually every tier. I see the merit in some specific mons keeping it, Leafeon and Espeon are good SD / CM passers for example, but I would not really want to take on a complex ban for the sake of preserving things that are already quite niche and would be happy to get rid of it outright for the reasons Tony outlined. Playing a different meta across various tournaments is silly and the only reason it's been like that up to this point is that we didn't have the power to change it; now that we do, I'd like to see us take the steps necessary to formalise the bans the community has already been playing with for years.

So to TLDR I'd be happy to move forward with a vote on Sand Veil at least. There's no disagreement there as far as I can tell and I can't see any good faith arguments popping up against it. As for hail/rain/bp/whatever else I think there should be more discussion had if possible, mostly on rain and bp since they weren't focal topics of this thread but I'd imagine the latter at least should be mostly uncontroversial.
 
Hi everyone. As you can see, the thread has been renamed to "DPP UU Tiering Discussion". This thread logically started including discussion regarding potential bans other than permanent weather, such as Baton Pass and Damp Rock most notably. To avoid having to create a separate thread and rehash each discussion point already mentioned, we have decided to keep this thread as a general purpose thread for all tiering discussion related to DPP UU.

Most relevant is the plan for how to approach the multiple potential bans as mentioned. As there are at least four potential bans that should be considered with some support (Sand, Hail, Baton Pass and Rain), we prefer to not discuss and vote on all bans at once. The current plan is to vote on Sand and Baton Pass first, with a vote for Hail and Rain planned somewhere in the future. Sand and Baton Pass were the most agreed upon problems, and also the ones that are most obvious with regards to uncompetitiveness: everyone in this thread who mentioned Sand and Baton Pass is pro-ban, while Hail and Rain have mixed sentiments. Sand also is an obvious problem with regards to Evasion clause, while Baton Pass is an issue in many tiers that is in for similar reasons. Maybe the most important reason we want to test Baton Pass first as well, is to solve the "two metagames" issue where we have two separate metagames due to Baton Pass being banned in almost every tournament where DPP UU is played, while it is not officially banned and thus legal on Showdown. Regardless of the outcome of the vote for Baton Pass, this result should be final and followed for tournaments as well.

There are still some things that are good to discuss before a vote happens. For Sand, this is the situation of what we want to ban specifically. We have already excluded the option of a complex ban: the gain from such a complex ban does not seem too major, and more trouble than it's worth. For the proponents of a Sand ban, it would be good to note arguments for either a Sand Veil ban or Hippopotas ban, if desired. Baton Pass also has not been discussed by everyone (as it was not the original topic), so if anyone wants to add something with regards to this topic, please feel free to add.

The vote for Baton Pass is planned to be whether Baton Pass should be banned completely. If it is not banned, the current Baton Pass clause is kept in effect (Limit one Baton Passer, can't pass Spe and other stats simultaneously). The vote for Sand is planned to be a double vote, with the first vote being whether action must be taken on Sand, and the second vote being the preferred ban if action is to be taken.

The voters list was determined with the following criteria:

DPP UU Cup V - Semifinalists
DPP UU Cup IV - Semifinalists

At least 3 games and at least 1 win - UUPL IX
At least 3 games and at least 1 win - UUPL VIII
At least 3 games and at least 1 win - UUSD I
At least 3 games and at least 1 win - UUWC I
At least 3 games and at least 1 win - DPP PL

Resulting in the voter list being as follows:

Accel Amukamara Ark atomicllamas avarice BKC Bouff byronthewellwell Chill Shadow crucify Donphantastic Emeral Eo Ut Mortus esche Estarossa Eternal Spirit fatty Heysup Leru Lilburr LpZ luisotte M Dragon Malekith MrAldo pokemonisfun ramolost Stone_Cold Thiago Nunes Tomahawk TonyFlygon TSR

DPP UU Cup V - Semifinalists
Bouff
crucify
TSR
pokemonisfun

DPP UU Cup IV - Semifinalists
pokemonisfun (2nd)
The LpZ
Amukamara
esche
solonor24
Ramolost

At least 3 games and at least 1 win - UUPL IX
TonyFlygon
Donphantastic
Chill Shadow
esche (2nd)
Thiago Nunes
Heysup
Tomahawk
brewfasa

At least 3 games and at least 1 win - UUPL VIII
Chill Shadow (2nd)
Thiago Nunes (2nd)
Heysup (2nd)
Eo Ut Mortus
esche (3rd)
Donphantastic (2nd)
atomicllamas
brewfasa (2nd)
Stone_Cold

At least 3 games and at least 1 win - UUSD I
Tomahawk (2nd)
Eternal Spirit
esche (4th)
Thiago Nunes (3rd)
TSR (2nd)
MrAldo
Leru
Heysup (3rd)
atomicllamas (2nd)

At least 3 games and at least 1 win - UUWC I
luisotte
brewfasa (3rd)
TSR (3rd)
estarossa
Emeral
byronthewellwell
Heysup (4th)
atomicllamas (3rd)
Thiago Nunes (4th)
esche (5th)

At least 3 games and at least 1 win - DPP PL
BKC
Accel
M Dragon
Heysup (5th)
Thiago Nunes (5th)
Ark
esche (6th)
Malekith
avarice
Lilburr
Chill Shadow (3rd)
fatty (4th)

The first vote will not go up before September 1st at the earliest, to give everyone at least one week for the opportunity to discuss anything. If you have an opinion on a part of the process, please feel free to share it. Any discussion on Sand and Baton Pass is also encouraged.
 
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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
I’d support making the requirements easier for DPP UU cup since as it is, it’s 5 games played with 4 wins (that’s what reaching semifinals means).
That seems unreasonably harder than 3 games and 1 win in the team tours.

I think the main counter argument is that there’s some screening mechanism for team tours. 3 points in response: 1) I don’t think we’re necessarily good at screening, particularly for UUWC as the screening isn’t really skill based 2) getting further in an individual tour is harder anyways and 3) the pool in DPP UU cup is very strong anyways.

therefore I suggest making the reqs reaching round 3 or round 4 of dpp uu cup instead of round 5 (semis).
 

avarice

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Hello, I have gotten into DPP UU more recently through DPP PL (go Buizels) and previously mainly just played the tier to help teammates test. I wanted to advocate for keeping Hippopotas and just voting Sand Veil. I did a full RMT not too long ago on DPP Sand and the vote is certainly warranted. cy used the team in their DPP Cup run and cheesed past both RobJr and Shiba too. Sand Veil is an admittingly cheap way to avoid the evasion clause and should be voted on rather than Hippopotas. Sand enables Pokemon like Cradily and can be helpful for Pokemon like Clefable immune to Sand that can get chip damage for free. Hippopotas's sole purpose has always been getting up Stealth Rock and setting up Sand Stream. Though it is worth mentioning it does provide limited utility as it can stomach hits from Defensive Arcanane, annoy with Yawn + Protect, Whirlwind, etc. Without the Sand Veil abusers, Sand likely will slip into a slower structure but certainly has the tools to remain viable. The team by Eternal Spirit worked rather well defensively against TSR, even if it does win more comfortably with Sand Veil at the end.

With a Sand Veil Ban, the main loss would be Cacturne. Cacturne's versatility is pretty much only valuable on Sand itself where it could use things like SubPunch, SubSeed, etc. Outside of the weather squad, Cacturne has seen usage as a Spikes lead. Any other set would likely be outclassed by the other Grass-types in the tier. Cacturne as a Spikes lead frankly is not very good and relies on confidence with getting turns right between Sucker Punch and Encore to make real headway (suppose I could just be using it poorly). I think anyone looking to use Spikes Cacturne can just use Omastar and this Pokemon should not be a reason to potentially nuke Sand as a playstyle.

e: kinda dated but Spikes Lead (obv SD veil) are both before fat spikes on analysis, sorry for not being aware of it existing. losing to both milo and top currently feels meh as well tho.
 
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Dave

formerly Stone Cold
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I don’t think weather was used in any of the games in the UPL I participated in. Why are we banning this? Hello? Leave the tier alone.

if anything lets promote clef and demote crobat,evire, yanmega and any other mon that is absolute asscheeks lol
 

esche

Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
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:dp/cacturne:

Cacturne has seen usage as a Spikes lead. Any other set would likely be outclassed by the other Grass-types in the tier.
I'm sorry, but this is an uninformed assessment. While you can lead with Cacturne, it is by no means its signature set. Nor is it its best set. Instead, its main niche in the metagame is as a reliable check to the tiers two most prominent Ghost types: Mismagius and Rotom. Mismagius has been nothing short of amazing as of late and people have been experimenting with ways to combat it. SpDef Cacturne takes advantage of the fatter sets nicely and doesn't mind a burn because it operates on the special side with Dark Pulse. NP is mostly dealt with too since Thunderbolt is still the most common coverage option (the speed drop from HP Fight does hurt), and so is Specs. As for Rotom, it's looking even better for Cacturne. Rotom is arguably the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier and locking into either STAB gives Cacturne opportunity to set up Spikes. In addition to that, bulky Cacturne checks Grounds and a handful of Waters decently enough (it's not a great Milotic answer, admittedly). Cacturne also packs a literal punch if you ever want to give it a try outside of Sand as a Swords Dance sweeper. Between Sucker Punch/Seed Bomb/Low Kick as coverage and a good bunch of resistances it can certainly be made to work. You can make the case that Sucker Punch isn't the most reliable form of priority but that hasn't stopped the likes of Toxicroak and Spiritomb from using it, has it? That being said, no, it can't compete with the likes of Venusaur or Sceptile as a breaker. But it doesn't have to do that to be considered a valuable asset to the tier. It sports strong priority, Spikes, and other utility options in Encore/Destiny Bond. It's not the solution to all your building strains but it's a unique, underexplored mon that deserves to have a spot in this metagame. Do not have it be caught in the crossfire of this.

I think anyone looking to use Spikes Cacturne can just use Omastar and this Pokemon should not be a reason to potentially nuke Sand as a playstyle.
This is leaving me confused. It's apparent that you don't have any experience with Cacturne outside of your coveted Sand build. And that's fine, it's NU for a reason after all. Still, how on earth do you come to the conclusion that Omastar of all things outclasses Cacturne? Does Omastar check Rotom? Does Cacturne win the lead matchup against Moltres? Other than that both use the move Spikes, I fail to the significance of this comparison.

And while we're on the topic of leads: It's in fact Hippotatas that does nothing but function as a one-trick pony before being thrown away with the hope that the opponent doesn't have a weather setter in the back. Let's not kid ourselves: With Sand Veil cheese strats gone, what benefit is there to preserving Sand anymore anyway? Who is really goint to be willing to give up an entire team slot for a mon that in the best case scenario gets to set up SR and enables a 1.5x SpDef boost for a medicore at best Curse sweeper that still loses to Toxic poison (or a burn even). Clefable is a force to be reckoned with for sure but I don't see why you would dedicate an entire team around the strategy of it sweeping with support from Sand Storm chip damage instead of something else. Especially in a tier as fast-paced as DPP UU. Don't get me wrong, it's worked out excellently as an auxiliary beneficiary on the Sand teams that could make use of Sand Veil to bullshit their way through a couple of the opponents mons first. But a full-blown strategy around it without said "support"? I don't see it.

In conclusion, Cacturne offers the world in comparison to what Cradily has to offer to the tier. I genuinely believe we are better off without perma weather.

---

I don’t think weather was used in any of the games in the UPL I participated in. Why are we banning this? Hello? Leave the tier alone.
With all due respect, Dave, you're not up to speed on this. Read the thread, will ya. I'm down to test OU/BL mons but that's a whole different story.

---

Baton Pass also has not been discussed by everyone (as it was not the original topic), so if anyone wants to add something with regards to this topic, please feel free to add.
I don't really care as long as we don't have full pass bullshit going on. The clause we have right now works fine, I suppose. Considering the nerfs that are in place and the Baton Pass users that are available, I don't see anything broken out on the horizon. That being said, I would not be oppossed to see it go. It's another one of those complex bans that we could certainly do without if we just nuked the move and, in the case of DPP UU, nothing of significance would be lost as far as I can tell. DryPass is pretty much never worth it since it takes up an entire moveslot. Unless you desperately want a budget U-turn on Scarf Blaziken or safely pivot into Dugtrio with Leafeon, you will be better off with other coverage/utility options. SubPass, on the other hand, is pretty underexplored and maybe in conjunction with a SD/CM boost it could lead to scary situations but it hasn't seen enough exploration.

---

TLDR; ban sand stream, save cacturne, drink cactus juice
 
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Estarossa

moo?
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I agree with esche and donny on the topic of Cacturne, while its an incredibly underexplored and rare Pokemon it's got some cool niches in DPP UU as a tier, bulky sets do a great job of handling rotom/missy with their typing, but I've explored and am quite fond of offensive Spikes sets on BO too as a mix of a Spikes setter and grass-type that does a cool job of pressuring Registeel and SpDef Clef with LO Focus Blast.

I also do think that Sand Stall is a playstyle that's definitely got validity outside of Sand Veil however. Stuff like SubTox Molt and CM Clef are really cool options in such a build and its something i've enjoyed messing with a fair bit without necessarily using Cradily either. Its unfortunate that a complex ban is off the table here as it would preserve as much as possible in an OldGen but opening the slippery slope is definitely a questionable choice.

I would lean towards preserving Cacturne here given the choice. While its an undeniably niche Pokemon it definitely has room for exploration in this tier and having an extra BO spiker with a positive matchup versus spinners is a nice addition in this tier for the occasional builds it does fit on, while its other sets also add some variety and all offer certain builds some useful traits thanks to its really neat typing, and banning Hippopotas won't effect the viability of any sand staples except Cradily, who definitely offers less to the tier overall.

If we are not open to exploring a complex ban on Sand I definitely don't think we should be doing so on Baton Pass either. I fully agree that Full Pass should absolutely go either way. I agree with previous statements that the tier being played in two different variations w.r.t BP has been offputting in recent years between UUPL (and UUWC/UUSD) and Classic, the move towards following Baton Pass limitations this year was a greatly improved step but it would definitely be ideal to move it more in line with the way the tier has been played in recent years in tours. Even in its more limited state Baton Pass can definitely still lead to some fairly BS matchup wins too with options like Soundproof CM Taunt BP Mr Mime or some potential Sub pass options as esche comments on, and doesn't really add a great deal to the tier.

tl-dr: atm would vote ban on BP and Hippopotas
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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I don't have much to say so I'm gonna keep this short, this is seemingly an unpopular opinion but I don't really want to get rid of baby Hippo/Sand as a whole when it doesn't really describe the issue - much less for the sake of a mon that has seen 0 uses outside of sand in the past few team tours that I checked. Like okay sure I get what it does (or what it's supposed to do? I legit have not seen this mon outside of sand in the past 2 years of watching UU team tours) but nobody's using it and it's clear why that's the case.

I'd be much more in favour of banning Sand Veil. You lose out on Cacturne (and Sandslash/Gabite lol ig) but you get rid of the actual problematic element of sand teams. I don't think anyone can make the argument that Curse Regi or CM Clef in Sand is unhealthy in good faith (unless they think those mons are unhealthy in the first place I guess?) and banning that entire playstyle which has proven itself to actually be quite varied just seems silly. It's not really about "preserving" Cradily's niche or anything for me, just that I don't really like the idea of scapegoating Sand Stream as the issue when that's not the problem at all for the sake of saving a mon that nobody uses or realistically will use once Sand is gone.

Mostly indifferent on Baton Pass now that I've thought about it a bit more, the complex ban is already in place and not really doing any harm but it's not like anything really uses it so if it was gone I wouldn't care a bit and would be fine with getting rid of it for the sake of uniformity. As long as it's consistent between team and individual tours idrc what solution is picked.
 

Iguana

formerly mc56556
Hello again! I just wanted to share some thoughts as this discussion progresses and potentially moves towards suspects.

Definitely agree with Baton Pass being among the first votes/suspects to take on. Seems like there's a lot of consensus pushing us to suspect it, as it's been problematic at times in the tier.

I've been discussing this for a little while in the UU Discord, but I disagree with voting on Sand Stream and not Sand Veil as the second suspect. This isn't meant to disparage anyone, but I find it odd how some are bending over backwards to keep Cacturne in the tier over an unproblematic
weather. Sand Veil is an uncompetitive ability that also has caused occasional issues in the metagame. Cacturne does have functions outside of Sand teams, but there appears to be a false narrative contending that banning Sand Stream is tantamount to only eliminating Cradily's viability whereas banning Sand Veil will eliminate all Cacturne sets. Where is the recognition of Sand as a viable weather beyond just supporting Curse Cradily? It's a multi-faceted playstyle with plenty of iterations and still room to explore and develop! I'm absolutely opposed to banning Sand, but I understand wanting to keep Cacturne.
And while we're on the topic of leads: It's in fact Hippotatas that does nothing but function as a one-trick pony before being thrown away with the hope that the opponent doesn't have a weather setter in the back. Let's not kid ourselves: With Sand Veil cheese strats gone, what benefit is there to preserving Sand anymore anyway? Who is really goint to be willing to give up an entire team slot for a mon that in the best case scenario gets to set up SR and enables a 1.5x SpDef boost for a medicore at best Curse sweeper that still loses to Toxic poison (or a burn even). Clefable is a force to be reckoned with for sure but I don't see why you would dedicate an entire team around the strategy of it sweeping with support from Sand Storm chip damage instead of something else. Especially in a tier as fast-paced as DPP UU. Don't get me wrong, it's worked out excellently as an auxiliary beneficiary on the Sand teams that could make use of Sand Veil to bullshit their way through a couple of the opponents mons first. But a full-blown strategy around it without said "support"? I don't see it.

In conclusion, Cacturne offers the world in comparison to what Cradily has to offer to the tier. I genuinely believe we are better off without perma weather.
I have a lot of respect for your contributions and passion for DPP UU, esche, but I disagree with this assessment of Sand and banning Hippopotas. I'm bewildered by the assertion that Hippo does nothing but set Sand and maybe Rocks too. I've never thought of it as a suicide weather-setter and never will. What about Yawn and Roar with hazards for shuffling Pokémon around, particularly against a super offensive team without recovery options? What about other helpful support moves like Slack Off, Toxic, Protect, STAB EQ, etc. Hippopotas does not have great base stats, yes, but to maintain that it can do no better than be a suicide weather-setter is, in my opinion, inaccurate. The benefit to preserving Sand is that it's an entire playstyle. Allowing Cradily to superboost and Sand Veil Pokémon to bullshit does not a viable playstyle make; there's much more to Sand teams than those features, particularly the consistent damage on opposing teams that stall appreciates. Hippopotas may not be Tyranitar or its evolution, but it's not useless beyond setting weather as some have described.

This brings us back to the dilemma: Some would like to keep Cacturne, and some would like to keep Sand Stream, but Sand Veil is universally viewed as uncompetitive and to be suspected. With that, it's time to bring up the elephant in the room––a complex ban on Sand Veil. Yes, these have become a taboo subject, but I (and others) feel the benefit here is worth the potential drawbacks. The rationale to do it is actually fairly simple. Given how...

a. Sand Veil is more problematic than Sand Stream in DPP UU;
and b. some, for valid reasons, want to preserve Cacturne (esche did a nice job of breaking down why in his post above),

a complex ban on Sand Veil would accomplish what both "sides" would like. I believe this should be among our considerations as we discuss tiering options.

One final note is that I read over Tomahawk's post regarding eligibility for participating in these votes/suspects, and I was dismayed to not see mention of any live tours for additional users to obtain reqs. The DPP OU Dugtrio suspecting process involved three live tours with the two highest-placing players in each tour qualifying to vote in the suspect, which was a popular and phenomenal idea. I'd heavily encourage those leading the DPP UU tiering initiative(s) to consider something similar. There are plenty of passionate DPP UU players who will not be able to vote in this, but hosting a few live tours would help remedy that.

As always, I'm glad to see dedicated people discussing how to improve this GOAT tier. :)

PS: Just briefly regarding dates for these upcoming votes/suspects, I would recommend pushing any vote on Sand (Sand Veil or Sand Stream) to later than September 1. There's a lot of ongoing discussion about this. Baton Pass voting seems like it can move forward accordingly, unless there's opposition expressed here in the coming days.
 
I have a lot of respect for your contributions and passion for DPP UU, esche, but I disagree with this assessment of Sand and banning Hippopotas. I'm bewildered by the assertion that Hippo does nothing but set Sand and maybe Rocks too. I've never thought of it as a suicide weather-setter and never will. What about Yawn and Roar with hazards for shuffling Pokémon around, particularly against a super offensive team without recovery options? What about other helpful support moves like Slack Off, Toxic, Protect, STAB EQ, etc. Hippopotas does not have great base stats, yes, but to maintain that it can do no better than be a suicide weather-setter is, in my opinion, inaccurate. The benefit to preserving Sand is that it's an entire playstyle. Allowing Cradily to superboost and Sand Veil Pokémon to bullshit does not a viable playstyle make; there's much more to Sand teams than those features, particularly the consistent damage on opposing teams that stall appreciates. Hippopotas may not be Tyranitar or its evolution, but it's not useless beyond setting weather as some have described.
I'd personally argue Esche is absolutely right here, Hippopotas really doesn't perform any role (well) outside of setting sand. Those base stats you mentioned really take away from its ability to perform roles outside of suicide leading for Rocks + Sand. Even with 252 +Defense nature things like Rhyperior are strong enough to rip right through it. Maybe not an OHKO but even then it's got tons of mons that just decimate it and costs your team a ton of momentum and free damage if you attempt to preserve it. Being miserably slow with paper thin special bulk (+ a Water and Grass weakness in this tier) and still below average physical bulk just isn't worth it, at least to me. There's a reason it has spent the entire duration of this meta's existence running Focus Sash on 99% of sand builds. Torterra, Steelix, Rhyperior, Donphan, and Dugtrio are all entirely better mons overall and the only reason you would ever stick Hippopotas on a team is to facilitate sand. The sand teams in question also sacrifice their matchups against the majority of common leads just to start the game off with sand. You're losing hard to Taunt Mismagius, Omastar, Cloyster, Mesprit / Uxie, and Venusaur, just to name a few. But this sacrifice is all in the name of getting sand up for Cradily and friends in the back. Trying to cram extra functionality onto a mostly bad pokemon is just gonna leave you disappointed.

Also for what it's worth, while I agree with the idea that live suspect tours would be a good idea to gain more (hopefully informed) voters, I can't see them happening as practically as the OU variations did. Lower tiers not getting as much attention as OU is just a fact of life we have to deal with; DPP OU setting up live tournaments for a suspect is something I think will be significantly more difficult for us to replicate, or gather the interest in for that matter. I bring the second point up because in addition to this live tour idea being probably a bit hard to pull off, I also think that the past couple tournaments have given us a good sample size of sand being fairly problematic, mostly through Sand Veil, and most of the people that got onto the voting list have already pretty much made their minds up.

With that out of the way, most people that bothered reading this can probably glean from me talking above that I really don't think sand itself is such an issue. Hippopotas is terrible outside of being the setter, Cradily is far from undefeatable, and the other usual suspects in Clefable and their ghost teammates aren't specifically more difficult to defeat in sand than they already were. I personally think Sand Veil is the only issue here. But it got brought up and discussed earlier today in the UU Discord so I thought I'd bring the general sentiment that I agree with here since I've been meaning to post some of my thoughts here anyway. What exactly is so unappealing about a complex ban? The whole "slippery slope" argument against it has always been terrible; tons of complex bans in theory is stupid, yes, but ultimately the process is up to the people involved in the voting process. If we don't want a complex ban to lead to said slippery slope, all we have to do is use discretion on a case-by-case basis and not add seven more complex bans just because we feel like it. Fact of the matter is pretty much no tier is gonna need complex ban upon complex ban BW OU-style to make marginal improvements like we're doing here. Hippo + Cradily on it's own is just a matchup fishy team structure and isn't at all an issue to the overall health of the tier, there are cool mons like Cacturne the tier loses out on if Sand Veil is hard banned, and Gligar and Cacturne are only anything remotely resembling a metagame force when they're supported by sand. With a complex ban of Sand Stream + Sand Veil, everything gets to stay in the tier but with the new benefit that sand teams can't use Gligar to coinflip the game out of the opponents control instead of accepting their good and bad matchups. I don't see the downside to having this as an option. I suppose with this I run the risk of august crafting the perfect Smooth Rock manual sand team in the shadows and forcing me to eat my words, but I would say the complex ban route is the best because it changes pretty much nothing about the tier other than sand being able to leverage bad matchups by dodging moves.

I believe the other topics at hand are a bit less contentious so I won't spend as long on them but:
- We should ban Damp Rock too while we're at it, SD rain Kabutops and Ludicolo are a force of nature. Dugtrio also enables rain builds a ridiculous degree but I believe I'm in the minority with this opinion.
- I personally think Snover + Walrein hail is in the same boat as Hippo + Cradily sand, if not a bit more reliable. I don't think Walrein is undefeatable by any means but some support for getting rid of it has been voiced above and I'd honestly be indifferent on keeping it or not. If anything is done with it, it should at least be the same complex ban as sand but for Snow Warning + Snow Cloak, for consistency's sake.
- Toss Baton Pass completely as well. While it's got some decently cool applications like allowing Medicham to be a passable lead that can escape Spiritomb Pursuit, just getting rid of it in its entirety like we have for the past several years of UU team tours will be for the best. I think keeping the move Baton Pass but banning all stat passing could be cool but would be in the vein of unnecessary complex ban that I mentioned above, so probably not worth it.
 

Eo Ut Mortus

Elodin Smells
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Thanks for letting me vote. A complex ban should be off the table. The organizers of this vote made the correct decision by not supplying it as an option. The desire to preserve every single Pokemon that is remotely viable in a given metagame is not a sensible mindset for a competitive game. Pokemon enter and exit viability all the time, with or without bans, and players need to accept that and adapt to it. It's even more pronounced in a usage-based low tier like UU that has a history of having to give up perfectly viable Pokemon to higher tiers. The burden should not be on someone to explain why we shouldn't apply a complex ban, but why a complex ban is necessary in the first place. And it's not, especially because both sand and Cacturne are far from integral to the metagame.

I agree with Esche's assessment on Cacturne and Hippopotas/sand's relative viability, but I think there is still too much credit being given to Cacturne. The offensive set was commonly used without sand before BL drops, and it just got phased out of viability with the introduction of all the other better offensive Grass-types. It's had the entire duration of DPP UU to make a comeback; it's not going to be now. The lead set has always been subpar. Cacturne's defensive Spikes set is the only viable one at the moment, and I still think it's being overrated, but it's nonetheless better than Hippopotas and Cradily, an investment of two slots for a strategy that cannot break through the most standard two-Pokemon defensive core in the tier. All that said, I am still voting to ban Sand Veil because it's more accurate to ban the ability whose sole and explicit purpose is to boost evasion over the one that does it as a side-effect.

I'll also take this time to lend my support behind the full Baton Pass ban; we have played multiple UUPLs with a full BP ban, and nobody has complained. Let's take this opportunity to simplify the ban.
 
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