Lower Tiers DPP UU Viability Rankings

dpp_uu_vr_venu.png

(Art by Bandkrook)
Welcome to the Viability Rankings thread for DPP UU, one of the greatest metagames we have. This thread is meant to serve as both a resource and a discussion thread, but only for the Rankings themselves (the DPP UU Discussion Hub serves for more general discussion of the tier).

For an initial ranking, Donphantastic, esche, fatty, Heysup and myself all ranked each potentially viable Pokémon in this tier, and averaged out these rankings. This should serve as a good initial ranking, but if you have any personal opinions on which Pokémon are ranked too high, too low, etc, please do voice your thoughts! This is absolutely not meant to be some final rankings monolith, and keeping this ranking updated allows us to keep this thread accurate through time. There are also some initial potential discussion points for the the ranking, such as the imbalance between some rankings (especially the A+ rank, for example), or Pokémon that were averaged out to a specific rank but actually had quite some disagreements between the five of us and might be improved by including more opinions or discussion.

As it might be helpful for insight on how this initial ranking came to be, and useful for discussion, I have included a screenshot of the rankings here as well.





Without further ado, here is the ranking:

S
:venusaur: Venusaur
:registeel: Registeel
:milotic: Milotic


A+
:uxie: Uxie
:clefable: Clefable
:mismagius: Mismagius

A
:arcanine: Arcanine
:donphan: Donphan
:dugtrio: Dugtrio
:rotom: Rotom
:houndoom: Houndoom
:rhyperior: Rhyperior
:kabutops: Kabutops
:moltres: Moltres
:torterra: Torterra
:mesprit: Mesprit
:sceptile: Sceptile

A-
:blaziken: Blaziken
:alakazam: Alakazam
:toxicroak: Toxicroak
:qwilfish: Qwilfish
:spiritomb: Spiritomb
:scyther: Scyther
:swellow: Swellow
:azumarill: Azumarill
:hariyama: Hariyama
:kangaskhan: Kangaskhan
:omastar: Omastar
:feraligatr: Feraligatr
:leafeon: Leafeon
:hitmontop: Hitmontop


B+
:entei: Entei
:ambipom: Ambipom
:slowking: Slowking
:blastoise: Blastoise
:drapion: Drapion
:primeape: Primeape
:ursaring: Ursaring
:weezing: Weezing
:exeggutor: Exeggutor

B
:aggron: Aggron
:ludicolo: Ludicolo
:miltank: Miltank
:regirock: Regirock
:skuntank: Skuntank
:steelix: Steelix
:absol: Absol
:cloyster: Cloyster
:walrein: Walrein

B-
:nidoqueen: Nidoqueen
:lanturn: Lanturn
:altaria: Altaria
:hitmonlee: Hitmonlee
:tauros: Tauros
:slowbro: Slowbro
:nidoking: Nidoking
:tangrowth: Tangrowth
:chansey: Chansey
:jynx: Jynx


C+
:claydol: Claydol
:drifblim: Drifblim
:medicham: Medicham
:gligar: Gligar
:snover: Snover
:hippopotas: Hippopotas
:poliwrath: Poliwrath
:cradily: Cradily
:espeon: Espeon
:gastrodon: Gastrodon
:electrode: Electrode
:pinsir: Pinsir

C
:muk: Muk
:porygon2: Porygon2
:magmortar: Magmortar
:manectric: Manectric
:marowak: Marowak

C-
:magneton: Magneton
:quagsire: Quagsire
:regice: Regice



With this, if you have anything to add, want to voice your opinion on specific Pokémon, or the clustering of rankings, or anything else, please join the discussion!
 
Last edited:
:bw/leafeon:
Leafeon A- to A
I am nomming Leafeon to be higher because of the matchup it has against a lot of the Pokemon its ranked with and ones that are ranked higher. I talked about this a bit with Tomahawk in discord about how Leafeon's SD set faces competition from SD Venu and Sceptile as well as Torterra, which is admittedly true, but what Leafeon has over them is the physical bulk to beat them alongside Double Edge or Leaf Blade in Tort's case. It does this while still doing what its competition does such as staving off threats like Rhyperior and Kabutops (at least outside of rain) by virtue of its high natural Defense and access to Synthesis to check them repeatedly. It's not like the bulk comes with low speed either, it's speed tier is actually pretty solid against Pokemon that bother most of the other Grass-types like Moltres, Blaziken, and Toxicroak. It's got the best of both worlds, since its not as slow as Venu, Egg, or Torterra while not being as frail as Sceptile, and still maintains that offensive presence.

It's also not hard to support Leafeon since much of the tier can't comfortably switch into the Leaf Blade/Double Edge combo, and it's not overly demanding to find teammates to overwhelm its checks and counters such as Weezing, Arcanine, and Registeel. Dugtrio is always easy support for the latter two, but Leafeon's neutrality to Stealth Rock and more opportunities to heal itself, means it has more team variety than others who need similar support such as Swellow or Scyther.

I am not an avid defensive Leafeon user, but I did see some tour replays and figured I'd give my thoughts based on those. It keeps back threats like Feraligatr and Azumarill even better, has nice cleric support, and new age tricks like Knock Off really bug switch-ins that prefer having their Leftovers recovery like Registeel and Arcanine. It still has the same properties you want out of a defensive grass while still being annoying to switch into.
 

esche

Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
:leafeon:

I will say I find Leafeon to be a bit of a liability at times. The SD set can't for the life of it get through the sturdiest defensive wall in the tier in Registeel which is a massive bummer and I find the "necessity" (arguable, but I definitely see the point) for Dugtrio as a partner more a hindrance in terms of what teams Leafeon can fit on more than a quality to be honest. Furthermore, Leafeon has trouble switching in on and immediately applying pressure to the best Water in the tier, Milotic, pretty much mandating a more solid Water resist alongside it. Toxic and Ice Beam both ruin Leafeon and given that one of the most common partners for Milotic happens to be Registeel, it often fails to make progress being either stuck healing of damage or unable to do anything close to resembling lasting damage. Surprise surprise, turns out competing with SD Venusaur is hard. While it has decent enough speed to get the jump on Moltres and the likes, Leafeon will always be revenge killed/forced out by the multitude of fast special attackers in this tier due to its abysmal special defense. Don't get me wrong, being able to overwhelm Venusaur (albeit offensive sets) with a +2 Double-Edge is neat and being a set-up sweeper that's not easily remove by Dugtrio is valuble. To me though, its foremost quality is checking phyiscally offensive Water and Ground types which is great for offensively inclined teams that have trouble fitting reliable answers to these attackers. Late game RP Torterra is one of the scariest sights for offense and having Leafeon keeps that at bay nicely.

No comment on the Wish set, so far I've only seen one use of it where I thought it was a decent fit but I oughta explore it more.

In conclusion, A- is absolutely fine for Leafeon. It relies a bit too much on support to be worthy of a clean A ranking among the other Grasses in my opinion.

:exeggutor:

Bump this thing up a subrank at least, it's a beast. Read BKC's excellent post for further infortmation.

:electrode:

I saw someone bring up Electrode in the Discord and it definitely should be ranked, oversight on our part. I propose we put it in B- for now.

:hitmontop:

Sorry, this thing is nowhere near A rank material to me. Defensive sets are stuck using Foresight to be able to spin reliably (good luck fitting Spiritomb alongside Hitmontop) and while offensive sets carve itself a niche with strong priority they're still easily identified, heavily prediction reliant and lack appropriate coverage. Suffice to say that being utterly walled by Venusaur doesn't help its case either. Having this thing in the same rank as Hariyama is a criminal offense.

:nidoqueen:

Can we drop this thing? T-spikes are horrendous and it doesn't really offer much else. I really don't think it should be ranked among the likes of Aggron and Ludicolo.

Could definitely do some more cleaning up of the A ranks since they seem pretty clustered. Then again this tier prides itself on variety of viability so maybe its only natural to have this many. Some of the C ranks look off to me as well but since this is the bottom of the barrel I suppose it doesn't matter as much.

I look forward to a healthy discussion! :psyglad:
 
Would definitely second bumping Leafeon up, though not on the strength of its SD set. As Esche pointed out, any sweeper who can't break Registeel is in for a bad time. Even though it's a fine mon, it mandates too much support to get effective use out of it unless your team already naturally checks Registeel at every corner.

Instead, I'd like to base it on the power of its defensive set, which was largely not discussed as of yet. Leafeon has a number of fine traits that make it an excellent defensive Grass which I think merit an A ranking alongside its fellow foresty friends. First, it's a physically defensive Wish passer, useful since Clefable, the most common Wish user, leans more to the special side. This allows you to pass Wish without having to fear usual Clef countermeasures, or even to pair the two up for amazing synergy that allows you to pass all game even when one mon's counter is already on the field.

Second, its amazing defense lets it check tons of major threats. Feraligatr, Torterra, and Kangaskhan are just some of the hard-hitting attackers it can stump, and it has naturally good attack and speed to let it threaten them in return, rather than passively walling. It can even threaten out the incredibly frightening Kabutops under rain, provided it switches in before a Swords Dance goes off, forcing it out, hitting another target, and burning rain turns with Protect. With Wish, it also isn't reliant on waiting for the weather to clear to heal like Tangrowth is.

Finally, it packs an array of useful support options, and its last slot is generally free to run any of them since it doesn't have any other move it needs too badly. Heal Bell and Knock Off increase its support role, Yawn can be useful for checking sweepers lacking Lum Berry, scouting switches, or for burning Rain turns if you predict a Kabutops switchout, Roar forces switches more easily without having to worry about pesky berries, and in theory moves like Charm or Toxic would have some application too. One could even run a second attack to avoid being switch food for Venusaur, with Aerial Ace hitting hard on the switch(though it's not my preference, I will say).

Overall I feel that Leafeon's distinct defensive niche sets it apart from the other Grasses in the tier and warrants a bump up. It may not be a superstar on most teams, but it is reliable game in and game out, with tons of versatility. And of course, you always can pack an offensive variant if you want, allowing you more flexibility on what kinds of teams you stick it into.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnus
UU Leader
I agree w/ Leafeon up. I understand that it struggles to get past Registeel w/ SD sets but I often don't find that to be a major issue; Registeel is tasked with handling 4000 mons already and stuff like LO Venu is just as hopelessly walled anyway, it's not like being unable to break past Regi should knock something down all the way to A-. The main reason I think Leafeon is great atm is the massive rise that I've seen (personal anecdote maybe?) in SD Venu. While yes you can make the argument that running SD Leafeon means you aren't running SD Venu, it does mean you're running a team with a genuinely solid SD Venu check, and there aren't many of those in the tier; it's notoriously difficult to keep rocks off in this tier, so a LOT of the Pokemon that technically hardwall SD Venu (Scyther, Moltres, Altaria) are taking 25-50 on switch in and they're forced to roost if they're packing it. Defensive Leaf is also super good at crippling Regi reliably, we all know how much worse Regi is w/o its Leftovers after all, and it's still a great way to handle SD Venu even if it's kinda walled because you can pass a Wish to a Flying mon and not instantly have it be bopped by rocks. Doesn't even begin to mention how reliable it is against stuff like Gatr and Tort but the above posters managed to do that much better than me anyway. I agree w/ Egg rising for a lot of the same reasons but basically SD Venu checks that don't die to rocks = good, and BKC gave a lot of great reasoning in the discussion hub already.

I think Primeape could rise a subrank. I've found it to be pretty fittable thanks to its great Speed tier and solid power, its coverage gives it a pretty unique offensive profile that can RK all of Moltres, Sceptile, Kangaskhan, Swellow, Alakazam, Feraligatr, Scyther etc. some need chip but like it's not the hardest thing to attain and Primeape makes up for it with its amazing offense matchup. It's not dead weight against most Ghosts either since a lot of them don't like taking Stone Edge at all (Mismagius, Rotom) or don't resist U-turn (Spiritomb) so there are very few matchups where it's dead weight. I personally find it to be more effective than Hitmontop and probably rate it similarly to Blaziken and Hariyama; its raw power isn't as great but it makes up for that with a ton of offensive utility that nothing else really matches.

I love how the VR turned out in general, it feels super well reflective of the current meta. Great job to those who worked on it!!
 

fatty

is a Tiering Contributor
NUPL Champion
I don’t think leafeon being in A- is really an indictment like it’s being made out to be. Unfortunately, for a lot of what leafeon does there is another grass that does it better. It has big competition from Venu and sceptile for SD sets while not being able to flip the script and go special like venu and scep have access to. It’s got a cool speed tier but again, not as good as sceptile. And like has been previously stated, leafeon is a pretty terrible water switchin aside from azumarill, and being able to take on milo is half the reason you would want to run a grass anyways in this tier. If it’s outclassed offensively, it’s defensive capabilities need to make up for it and unfortunately I really don’t think you can make this claim. Leafeons defensive merit lies in beating physical waters and grounds, and while it does a great job at that, I think these mons are niche enough to be covered by other things on most builds. Furthermore, you trade beating those mons with letting in some of the most dangerous mons in the tier essentially for free (venu, fires, scyther). Lastly, it’s arguably even outclassed in this role by Tangrowth. Unfortunately, in the end this is a viability rankings, and leafeon is simply slightly less viable when you consider the other grass options you have.
 

Oglemi

Borf
is a Top Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
Primeape and Urasaring are way too high. They're very matchup reliant, the bear especially, and really need things to go perfectly in the early game to see any success. Primeape has more of a case for staying where it is, it is one of the better Scarfers in the tier, but Ursaring is just niche and 90% of the time you're better off with Swellow or Kanga tbh.

I don't have much more to add other than I feel Arcanine and Missy are too low and should probably be in A+ with the other two, they're just not only role-defining mons but can also customize to basically any team.
 
:dp/spiritomb: to A.

Really good spin blocker and super tough to take down. All the ghosts can struggle to beat it and most spinners do too. If you're running Will-O-Wisp ruins all of them.

It's a great U-turn sponge and can pursuit some users like Uxie and Mesprit which chip on these is very important for something like Primeape. All the ghost get pursuit with ease and if Scarf Rotom goes down huge holes can be opened for sweeping teammates. Personally I think Banded is great as it an surprise sweepers like DD Gatr with Sucker Punch as most of them will Waterfall thinking you'll try and eat the hit. Also trick is incredibly in this tier and tricking Clefable, Milotic, or Registeel is really important in a Match.
 

esche

Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
:spiritomb:

I disagree with a rise. Ghosts have been teching pretty hard to counteract Pursuit trapping and Spiritomb in particular has been suffering from this trend. Fat Mismagius has seen an uptick lately and Colbur Dual Status Rotom is solidifying itself as a staple set as well. Having to be wary of WoW itself, Spiritomb finds itself in the weird situation of wanting a special STAB attack to reliably combat being burned which further exacerbates its four-moveslot-syndrome. While it has the option to run a Spooky Plate set with Shadow Ball, that set has a much weaker Pursuit and priority which is undesirable. Dread Plate - probably its best set - on the other hand can't really fit Dark Pulse because it would have to give up on one of Psychic or WoW. Choice Band I've found to be pretty underwhelming and dangerous at that because locking into a slow Pursuit or a Sucker Punch in this tier can easily spiral out of control and be your downfall. Another thing is is that Alakazam, the ideal target for Spiritomb, isn't even in that great of a spot right now. Pursuit and priority are still at an all time high which dissuades usage. As for the other Psychic types, taking away 40% from Uxie after Rocks go up turn one isn't that great a trade for Spiritomb especially considering something to take advantage of it will be cycled in by U-turn next. Mesprit can be pretty hard to catch since the Scarf set is mostly U-turning around early game but its definitely more easily removed than Uxie and the impact of that removal is much more significantly felt during the game. Finally, Spiritomb is awfully match-up prone. In games against Alakazam and Scarf Mesprit you don't want to miss it but when there is no obvious target for Spiritomb to be found on the opposing team, it can quickly become a liability. The typing helps pivot into attacks of course, but I often wish it had an actual resistance to Ghost attacks. It doesn't exactly excel as a spinblocker either and is for that reason often found alongside Mismagius or Rotom on dedicated Spikestack teams.

Also wanna echo fatty here and say that A- is far from a bad ranking. Spiritomb is great, and I love using it but it simply does not offer the level of consistency that Rhyperior, Sceptile or the other two Ghosts that reside in A provide. A- is a good rank for it but I would not put it any higher.

:primeape:

I agree that Primeape could probably rise to A- simply due to the effectiveness of its Choice Scarf set.

:mismagius:

Missy is nothing short of amazing right now and a rise to A+ would adequately reflect its place in the metagame.

:arcanine:

Not entirely convinced its A+ material but I'm also not immediately opposed. It really wants Rapid Spin support which unfortunately limits your team structure a fair bit and I disagree that its as splashable as Uxie and Clefable but it's still extraordinarily useful and quite versatile.
 
Thanks everyone! I am very happy with all discussion that's going on, glad to see this metagame still being popular enough for people to be invested :)

For updating the rankings, I'm trying to figure out the best way to do it. I am happy to update myself and just follow 'community consensus', but as can be seen for example with Leafeon that is not always clear. I am considering more of a 'council' type situation, but that would most likely end up being the same people who helped me create the initial ranking (so maybe less likely to update the rankings). If anyone has another suggestion, feel free to let me know!

For now, I'll just give my personal opinion on everything that's mentioned so far:

:leafeon: A- → A: Disagree. I think Leafeon is a good Pokémon, and I enjoy its viability as both a defensive and offensive option, but esche and fatty both explain well why A- is a fine place for it. I can see that a lot of people are for this change, so in either case we should be paying attention to it in tours like UUWC for a potential rise.

:exeggutor: B → B+: Agree. The reason Exeggutor isn't in B+ is my fault, and I will gladly admit I was wrong. It's ridiculously strong and that secondary Psychic STAB is very useful in teams relying on anything that isn't Registeel to absorb a Leaf Storm.

:electrode: UR → Ranked: Agree. Not including Electrode was an oversight on my end, and it should be ranked. I think B- is very high for it though, C or C- seems like a fine place for it to me. I think Electrode rain is not the most optimal rain build personally.

:hitmontop: A- → B+: (Slight) disagree. I think Hitmontop's best set is Intimidate, as this gives it a lot of utility for just switching in and it's imo a great spinner. TechniTop isn't A- worthy by itself imo, but still good enough to help with Hitmontop's viability. Hitmontop might not be as good as Hariyama in A- as a Fighting-type threat, but I do think it's better than Blastoise in B+ as a defensive spinner (if we're naming examples).

:nidoqueen: B → B-: Agree. I like Nidoqueen on some super defensive teams (or hail/sand), but yes Toxic Spikes are really mediocre which largely cuts into its niche.

:primeape: B+ → A- / B: (Slight) disagree. Interesting how it was suggested to both rise and drop. I think it's fine where it is, Scarf is the only set and it's good, but I think that's fine for B+. I would definitely rise it before I would drop it though.

:ursaring: B+ → B: Agree. I love Ursaring and it can be very threatening, but I do agree that it is it not as easy to make it work as some other similar threats, and I would think twice before loading it for a serious game.

:mismagius: A → A+: Agree. Missy is amazing and definitely worthy of A+ rank in the current meta.

:arcanine: A → A+: Agree. Not as definitely A+ as Missy, but I think it's also very good. I personally also wouldn't mind balancing the ranks out a bit. Yes, Arcanine (for example) might not be as splashable as Uxie, but it is also better than some mons in A like Moltres, Mesprit and Sceptile. Related, I also wouldn't mind Donphan in A+.

:spiritomb: A- → A: Disagree. I personally dislike Spiritomb and don't use it often, but I will respect that it's a good mon. A is too far for me though, and A- is good enough for it. I will refer to esche's post as it covers my thoughts well.
 
Hello everyone, this will be the first update of the VR. Thanks everyone for the fruitful discussion! These changes were finalized after internal discussion with esche and Donphantastic, thanks for the support.

All changes have already been discussed in the thread, so I won't provide additional descriptions. If anyone requests them, I will be happy to do it however.

Rises
:mismagius: → A+
:exeggutor: → B+
:electrode: → C+

Drops
:nidoqueen: → B-

Watchlist (no change for now, but will look into again after UUWC)
:arcanine:
:leafeon:
:hitmontop:
:primeape:
:ursaring:
 

Donphantastic

I'm Donny P. (W)
is a Tiering Contributor
Thoughts on the watchlist:

:Arcanine: A-> A+: Agree. Fire dog es very good, spdef sets will forever refuse to take meaningful damage from stuff even if rocks are up, offensive sets are demons to come in on, and fires as a whole are in a good spot in the meta due to the grasses being broken. Usually a mon that just fits in almost anything despite the fact that I haven't used one in years

:Leafeon: A--> A: Disagree, but I'd like to hold out and see if the defensive set ends up taking a rise. The metagame has seen a ton of rise in SD venu/ torterra/rhyperior usage all of which help the grass cat's case, but usually leafeon is able to handle these mons just fine with the standard SD set. while there are MU's where it shines, there;s just as many where you'll find yourself wishing that it was any other grass, be it venu for the added spdef, sceptile for speed, or tangrowth if you really want to do the whole phsydef knock off route. (offensive bulky tang is legit btw pls try it out)

:Hitmontop: A--> B+: Mostly disagree, but the argument is there. Top strikes a fantastic balance between bulky fighting type spinner, which matches up well vs rockers like donphan/rhyperior/some registeel, or decent spinner and great revenge killer with the technitop set. It is this flexibility that allows it to sit at A-imo, but the fact of the matter is that as an offensive fighter its worse than yama/lee and as a defensive one it struggles to break things that fighters should be breaking, not being able to threaten registeel after a curse for example, is not a good look. That being said, top is inarguably good at its roles as long as it is well supported.

Primeape: B+ -> Anything: Nah this mon is fine where it is, and that is probably proven by people asking both for a rise and a drop lol.

Ursaring: B+-> B: Disagree, I think bear is slept on at the moment. While Ambi/Kanga still are better normals overall bear simply outdamages them both even with its quick feet set, and guts being a legit status absorber is not something to take lightly in para the gen. I think ursa is solidly the 4th best normal in the tier and this ranking reflects it.

Uxie to S tier, that is all.
 
my-image(17).png


Heres a link to the template I used if anyone else wants to make their own dpp uu vr. I just used a national dex template https://tiermaker.com/create/pokemon-national-dex-gen-8-fully-evolved-164179

I'll probably add more to this post and talk about more of my rankings at a later date, but for now I'm just commenting on a few of my rankings.

A
:Toxicroak:
Toxicroak is, imo, the second best poison type in the tier (second only to venusaur) and the best fighting type. It's a poison type that isnt helpless against dugtrio, even when it is at low health thanks to it having priority on all of it's sets. Only substitute dugtrio can handle sucker punch variants, and both sub and non-sub dug don't particularly like facing vacuum wave croak. it can revenge kill vacuum wave croak in a pinch if it's health is high enough or if croak hasn't boosted, but otherwise it won't get an opportunity to trap croak.
Aside from having ways to handle dugtrio trying to trap it, toxicroak is also a great check to the 3 best pokemon in the tier; Venusaur, Milotic and Registeel. Croak resists both of venusaur's stabs, and with lum berry it can set up on the standard life orb special attacking venusaur set without fear of being put to sleep. Only earthquake versions of venusaur even threaten toxicroak, and milo completely lacks a way to hit croak most of the time due to croak having dry skin. Most Registeel can't do too much back to toxicroak, and it's also terrified of its stab fighting moves boosted by either SD or nasty plot.
Addtionally, toxicroak is also pretty good against rain teams. It blanks Kabutops, and it scares ludicolo quite a bit if it doesn't pack HP Psychic. Even hp psychic ludicolo doesn't want to take a swords dance boosted sucker punch, and it can't exactly switch in safely. It also forces qwilfish to explode or switch to deal with it. Explosion does kill croak, but it also kills qwilfish in the process, and the other common swift swimmers (ludicolo and kabutops) don't want anything to do with croak.
Overall, Toxicroak's unique typing, it's ability to hold it's own easily against the top 3 pokemon, it's amazing offensive and defensive utility, it's ability to protect itself from dugtrio via priority moves and it's ability to fend off rain teams well make it worthy of A ranking in my eyes.


B-
:Electrode:
I think Electrode is somewhat underappreciated. I consider it to be the most reliable rain setter. Many people think Uxie is the best rain setter, and understandably so; it has good bulk, decent speed for setting up rain as a lead, and u-turn to bring something in safely and it can come back in later to reset rain. However, while Uxie is a very good rain setter, it can potentially be taunted by lead mismagius and shut down. Electrode has the fastest taunt, meaning it can't be out taunted, and it can prevent opposing leads from setting up entry hazards. After it sets up rain it can explode to get a teammate in safely while also going out with a bang (literally) and severely denting whatever it explodes on. It's set is a one-trick pony that only fits on one type of team, so I do think it being ranked C+ makes sense. That being said, it's incredible at what it does and it's great at facilitating one of the most feared playstyles. For this, I think it deserves to be in low B-, or maybe higher up in C+.

Rip Cacturne

(edit: I didn’t realize until like a day ago but I accidentally placed omastar in A. It should be A-).
 
Last edited:

esche

Frust kommt auf, denn der Bus kommt nicht
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
:dp/pinsir:

UR --> C+/B-

Pinsir @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- X-Scissor
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb

My boy Pinsir deserves a spot on the rankings. His only set worth using is lead rocks but he does a pretty respectable job at that one. Pinsir matches up excellently against the most reliable lead in the tier, Uxie (and by extension, Mesprit), denting even fully physically defensive versions for half of their health on turn 1 and setting up coveted Stealth Rocks the following turn. Furthermore, it limits Omastar and Qwilfish to one layer of hazards, which is a quality every good lead should possess in my humble opinion. Focus Sash allows it to trade vs many leads that it doesn't immediately match-up well against on the basis of type-advantage alone. Scyther and Moltres risk getting OHKOed by Rock coverage and are thus forced to U-turn or pray for a flinch respectively (the latter of which requires Timid - many lead Moltres opt for Modest). Between Bug STAB and EdgeQuake coverage, Pinsir is surprisingly obnoxious to switch into and can deal a fair amount of damage at the start of the game. Interestingly, the combination of Mold Breaker and Earthquake is a trait unique to Pinsir in DPP UU, which allows it to reliably damage Rotom and other floaters. Not all is ideal for Pinsir, of course. Mismagius, arguably the best anti-lead available, doesn't fear Pinsir whatsoever, shuts it down with Taunt and neuters it with Will-o-Wisp. It doesn't bring much to the table outside of the lead slot either: I've toyed around with SD and SubSalac sets but they're not worth your time, unfortunately. Still, for me it's definitely on par with stuff like Jynx and the Nidos, and possibly even lower end B material. I'll drop some replays below so you can get an idea for yourself.

Replay #1
Replay #2
Replay #3
 
I have removed Cacturne (RIP) as it is now impossible to use in the tier, and added Pinsir to C+ following esche's reasoning.

Some other (brief) thoughts:
For the watchlist I mentioned above (Arcanine / Leafeon / Hitmontop / Primeape / Ursaring), I don't think Arcanine and Leafeon have really proven to deserve a rise, the other three I can see the changes but also they feel mostly fine in the current spot - unless someone feels more strongly that they should drop/rise.

Another thought I had was to consider Uxie to S (as Donphantastic wanted from the start) - I wasn't super involved this UUPL but just from watching games and helping a little with some prep it almost felt like the best mon in the tier to me currently. Donphan to A+ might also be reasonable shout.

As for Cubic Skunk's suggestion for Toxicroak and Electrode, I am not entirely sure: it is great, but always feels a bit unreliable to me, either relying on Sucker + Cross Chop or Focus Blast, however it does mess up RegiMilo cores quite nicely in fairness. I don't mind it in A per se, but also think it's fine where it is now. Electrode rain is in my opinion a suboptimal version of rain, feels to me like sacrificing a slot for a mon this one-dimensional makes your team less flexible unnecessarily. If others love it too though, sure why not.
 
i havent taken a good look at the vr in a long time and since i've finally gotten some games in this tier in the past ~6 months i figured i'd post some thoughts to consider whenever the next vr slate is

:dp/mesprit: A -> A- just looking at A tier mesprit just feels much weaker than everything else in there. i get its got some versatility but most of this versatility is just outshined by uxie

:dp/skuntank: B -> B+/A- super consistent mon that finds itself getting a ton of value trapping stuff and just being obnoxious with the combination of boom+sucker punch, way stronger/more useful on a game-to-game basis than stuff like absol/walrein, arguably a better pursuiter (or mon, even) than drapion as well bc of it not being dug bait

:dp/hitmonlee: B- -> B/B+ hitmonlees always felt super strong to me, fist plate lets it be an insanely consistent threat/spinner that lasts an obnoxiously long time throughout a game. cc blaze kick spin filler (prob one of the two prio moves) lets it have longevity while still having that wallbreaking power, being able to 2hko max def milo after the slightest chip

:dp/altaria: B- -> C+ I think this mon is ASS personally, flopping hard every time i've seen it used. choice sets just seem too damn weak and dd needs ur opponent to dc for 5 turns to become a threat. i understand its basically got a plethora of sets though, so maybe i just haven't had my eyes opened to it yet, but idk seems wayyy weaker than any of the other things in b- (maybe not nidoking/chansey but prob drop those too)

:dp/poliwrath: C+ -> B- This is one of the best milo punishers in the tier imo. super underrated sub punch mon that subs on milo toxics with a bit of speed investment (something azu cant do). can hard in on stuff like curse regi too and bulk up alongside it / encore. just completely shafts these fatter builds that are popular. yeah poliwraths great
 
Hi! Following the conclusion of UUPL, I wanted to post a few thoughts on the VR and some of my impressions on the metagame after building for 8 weeks / getting some more experience in the tier. Apologies in advance if this is too much of a ramble at points.

----
:xy/clefable:
In all honesty, it's difficult to quantify how important Clefable is to various structures / building in this meta. To me, it's a paragon of consistency, in that it is guaranteed to contribute defensive utility and make progress in any matchup. It is also incredibly customizable and can conceivably fit on every archetype in existence, though I have to say that Stealth Rock sets generally feel like a waste of this incredible mon.
For example, it enables the use of grasses not named Venusaur on balance - as was pointed out earlier in the thread, Leafeon and Torterra cannot answer Milotic, and so necessitate stacking extra checks to it. In my perspective, it fits in such teams better than Registeel, which is another common partner for the aforementioned Grass-types on balance - Registeel is a lot more exploitable with Missy Wisp, various sub users like Entei, etc. and also has a worse matchup into bulkier teams. You probably hear this parroted a lot, but I should add that Knock + Encore Clef is incredibly potent, as in top 2 set in the tier broken if anything. Even extremely offensive teams typically run targets for this set like NP Mismagius, so it is capable of putting in work regardless of the matchup.

Ordering the top 5 on the VR (Venu / regi / milo / uxie / clef) is always going to be somewhat messy with individual opinions (and the differences are fairly marginal), so I won't formally nominate for a rise. My personal take is that Clefable is easily #2 or #3 overall in the tier - mainly by virtue of how impactful it is in game in terms of "progress-making," and how much it streamlines building. Bulky offense teams typically try to structure themselves to exploit Registeel + Milotic defensive cores, even when not using hard counterplay or lures like passho/herb doom, so I tend to prefer Clefable Donphan-ish stuff when building personally (these are pretty different cores but you probably understand what I mean). Overall, I'd probably order the top five something like Venusaur > Clef > Registeel > Milotic / Uxie.
----

:dp/rhyperior: A --> A+

Rhyperior feels like a staple at this point that blanket checks a multitude of threats, in a similar vein to Registeel. Leftovers 3A sets have enough power to 2hko most switchins with hazard support, and sub tox easily lures Milotic for teammates. Combine these support sets with the versatility of RP lefties / RP soft sand as a late game cleaner, and you find that Rhyperior is more splashable and plainly superior to everything in A rank* (only Donphan has a similar ceiling IMO). Obviously it requires some support, but Rhyperior is a staple of various defensive cores with as much or more versatility / splashability than the bottom end of A+ rank (Mismagius) so it should be bumped up.


*To expound on this a little, mons like Dugtrio, Rotom, and Moltres are an order of magnitude more specific to a build than Rhyperior. Obviously they have totally disparate roles, but many of these mons (e.g. dugtrio) require a pretty linear structure while being pretty comparable in their ability to make progress / be a threat.


:dp/drapion: B+ --> B

I've never understood the merits of using this; defensive sets are a liability into SD Venusaur, offensive utility / Choice Scarf sets are mostly outclassed by Skuntank in all aspects with its access to Explosion + priority, and SD has underwhelming damage output for a setup sweeper. Lead sets are alright (sub sd is very nice when you face pixies), but still don't have a solid matchup into the premier antilead in bulky Colbur Mismagius, which is disappointing for a dark-type lead.
Consider that all these sets stack extra weaknesses to Dugtrio (at least some of its other targets like Registeel can trade with it), and you find that Drapion is a liability in the builder more often than not.

Contrast this with some of the other mons in B+: Entei, Primeape, Ambipom, and Weezing all have relatively unique niches, e.g. I consider Primeape to be one of the few splashable scarfers in the tier. It's pretty telling that in 8 weeks of building, I didn't consider using Drapion at all, nor did I even think about its matchup into my teams, and hardly any of them ended up overtly weak to it (it was a little annoying for my semis team I guess?) In general, this mon feels like a relatively dated pick, and should be dropped as a result.

----

Regarding some of the previous nominations in the thread:

:dp/mesprit: A --> A-

I wholeheartedly agree with all of the nominations in hariyana grande's post above, besides this one, for which I'm a little on the fence. I definitely have a bit of fondness for Mesprit after building with it several times this UUPL - while it can sometimes overlap with support Uxie in its role, there are some definite positives to using it.

Foremost among these is access to a slow Healing Wish; this is fairly unique, as the only other viable HWish user in Clefable is usually incapable of fitting the move. This has amazing late game potency, and also single-handedly enables some very powerful sets (Swords Dance + Sleep Powder Venusaur for example). Mesprit's increased firepower also enables it to hit a very important benchmark in being able to 2HKO SD Venusaur, and so it can more reliably check +2 Venu, assuming it won the speed creep war in the builder.

That said, Mesprit is ostensibly worse than Donphan, Houndoom, et al so I can understand where the sentiment to drop it comes from - and of course for a lot of teams, Uxie is Uxie and has to be used. To me personally, though, it does feel in a similar stratosphere to Sceptile and Blaziken - it doesn't fit on every build, but has a powerful niche for teams that use it. Given that we don't really see too much bulky HWish Mesprit yet, I'd probably hold off on dropping it for now.

:dp/toxicroak: A- --> A

Like Tomahawk, I can see either position on the VR. Since almost every fast dark resist is quite frail, Toxicroak is incredibly threatening in the builder and as a late-game cleaner - in fact I used HP Psychic on almost every single Milotic this tour! In my opinion, this mon is also mandatory on any HO that wants to be consistent at all, since those teams need a solid pivot into Milotic and need to not auto lose to rain.

However, it does suffer from being an excessively linear mon relative to some of the other threats in A-. I don't really rate the special set much; Uxie can revenge kill it easily even sitting at 20% health or w/e, and you rely on Focus Blast as your main way of breaking key walls like Registeel and Rhyperior. The clutch factor vs Kabutops et al is not worth the tradeoff, in my opinion. I've messed around with SubPunch but don't like it at all - the main reason to use a fighting type in this tier is consistently threatening regi / clefable, and the subpunch set is shaky against those two. So, if we were to consider a raise, I'd have it be on the merits of the SD set primarily.


Other random thoughts:

Honestly, I was surprised this is only ranked in A-; it really feels like a core staple water of the tier with the lefties set. It's very hard to wall this after you catch the milo / king with tox; ice punch also punishes grasses much harder than ice beam from most bulky waters. Extra prio is very good when going in with no scarfer, helping patchwork the matchup against threats like Alakazam / NP Houndoom and giving some valuable role compression. (I personally rate Azu higher than Blaziken or Sceptile at the moment)

I wanted to use this at a few points throughout the tour given that my scout had zero Dug usage; what ended up happening is I'd try building it, give up, and go back to some Moltres offense idea. The issue is that you add some dug abuser such as Leafeon, realize that you have a gaping hole vs Milotic or w/e else, and end up with a pretty linear build in the end. It's not even good at supporting some of its common partners (Swellow) because it can't trap Rhyperior, and as such I'm not surprised it got only two (?) uses the entire tour. I didn't nominate it for a drop since it's the type of mon that preys on people being complacent towards it in the builder, which ironically happens the most when it's seen as being mediocre.

Sand definitely feels like the better of the two meme weather styles, primarily because Cradily can blanket check a lot of threatening stallbreakers (e.g. NP Houndoom). I'm not well aware of what is traditionally used on sand, but Weezing is a mandatory pick for being the only SD venu check that can properly fit, and sand teams of course enjoy its role compression in being able to handle some other big threats like Rhyperior. I would have liked to explore this a little in the tour, but opted not to because of the stigma around it + not being very comfortable piloting it.

This might be well-known, but there really aren't any satisfying scarfers in this tier. I don't mind Primeape and Houndoom too much, but it generally feels better to just use a fast mon + some prio users as speed control.

Thanks for reading!
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top