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All Gens Retro Cup of Pokemon 2021: Semifinals
- Thread starter Golden009
- Start date
Since seemingly NO ONE knows what the fuck is going on, I suppose it's time for Smogon's viability specialist to step in. This is my first post since my unban a few weeks ago, so be grateful.
The original decision was rather sketchy at best. The Argentinian player most certainly did not have a claim to an activity win. He clearly did not do enough, and the communication between both parties was, quite frankly, an absolute disaster. I'm honestly disappointed that a Finchinator-led team suffered this sort of setback; he should have been more on top of his players and made sure that the game actually happened on time. Instead, jonfilch's lackadaisical attitude gave the Argentinians the opportunity to advance to the semifinals. This decision most certainly should have been overturned originally, and Finchinator's 8 billion posts sum up the reasons why pretty well. Because of this, I am declaring the original decision to be UNVIABLE
However, the fact remains that Argentina and Canada have already played 2 games. You really cannot just pause the series in the middle of the week once the games have already begun. For those who follow the NFL, it would be like if a coach challenged a previous play after a new one had already occurred; the rules are in place for a reason. While Wigglytuff and Kris had the right idea, the notion that you can just pretend like these games were meaningless should NE advance is honestly pretty absurd. There is no way you can realistically overturn this decision at this juncture. At the end of the day, the hosts in charge of this tournament simply made an ill-advised decision and did not seek help from the proper counsel (I mean...we have like 80 TDs?). Because of this, I am declaring this decision, which apparently was merely a suggestion despite earlier wording making it seem like it was the word of the Gods, to be UNVIABLE
The only proper solution here is to resume the tournament from its current state and eliminate Northeast once and for all. It is unfortunate that this has to happen, since the original decision was rather poorly thought out, but the tournament has advanced too far at this point to undo the prior decision. The next time anything like this happens, feel free to contact me. My PMs are always open.
The original decision was rather sketchy at best. The Argentinian player most certainly did not have a claim to an activity win. He clearly did not do enough, and the communication between both parties was, quite frankly, an absolute disaster. I'm honestly disappointed that a Finchinator-led team suffered this sort of setback; he should have been more on top of his players and made sure that the game actually happened on time. Instead, jonfilch's lackadaisical attitude gave the Argentinians the opportunity to advance to the semifinals. This decision most certainly should have been overturned originally, and Finchinator's 8 billion posts sum up the reasons why pretty well. Because of this, I am declaring the original decision to be UNVIABLE
However, the fact remains that Argentina and Canada have already played 2 games. You really cannot just pause the series in the middle of the week once the games have already begun. For those who follow the NFL, it would be like if a coach challenged a previous play after a new one had already occurred; the rules are in place for a reason. While Wigglytuff and Kris had the right idea, the notion that you can just pretend like these games were meaningless should NE advance is honestly pretty absurd. There is no way you can realistically overturn this decision at this juncture. At the end of the day, the hosts in charge of this tournament simply made an ill-advised decision and did not seek help from the proper counsel (I mean...we have like 80 TDs?). Because of this, I am declaring this decision, which apparently was merely a suggestion despite earlier wording making it seem like it was the word of the Gods, to be UNVIABLE
The only proper solution here is to resume the tournament from its current state and eliminate Northeast once and for all. It is unfortunate that this has to happen, since the original decision was rather poorly thought out, but the tournament has advanced too far at this point to undo the prior decision. The next time anything like this happens, feel free to contact me. My PMs are always open.
Wigglytuff PM'd me alerting me of the situation here because Lutra and the other hosts aren't online and this situation is time sensitive. Although I don't focus on overseeing the tournament circuit, as the other RoA leader I will step in where necessary to put a close to this issue.
This situation is a complete disaster. Neither party scheduled properly whatsoever, the hosts are unqualified and messed this up on several accounts, and the decision to overturn the game several days into the week is asinine.
The hosts made the following mistakes:
Something I want to highlight is that this is not the first RoA team tournament this year that has had controversial/subpar hosting and a ton of issues. RoAPL came with many problems that needed proper solving. Moving forward, I plan to either make a post or have some sort of internal discussion about the state of RoA team tournaments.
Apologies to all parties involved, especially team Argentina and team Northeast. You were both unjustifiably screwed over and I hope we can use this situation to improve the state of these smaller tournaments.
Team Argentina's activity win is not overturned, the tournament will continue as is.
This situation is a complete disaster. Neither party scheduled properly whatsoever, the hosts are unqualified and messed this up on several accounts, and the decision to overturn the game several days into the week is asinine.
The hosts made the following mistakes:
- Declared an incorrect double substitution without communicating with team Argentina
- Granted an activity win for a match with insufficient grounds
- Took way too long to address NE's appeal
- Lacked communication and organization across the board
- Attempted to overturn the decision in the middle of the week when a game has been played and likely others have been scheduled/prepared for
- Allowed a haphazard post that caused way more chaos than needed
My jurisdiction is that the TDs should at the very least have power to intervene over RoA leadership for RoA tournaments. They are able to make administrative decisions already to tourban people for circuit tournament misdemeanors, so by extension they should be able to step in for other administrative decisions. TDs have significantly more expertise on running tournaments than RoA leadership and RoA team tournament hosts. I think it is not fair to extend their responsibilities and force them to take action here (RoA leadership should still hold some responsibility/authority), but they shouldn't be barred from intervening when necessary & if they have the desire.
Something I want to highlight is that this is not the first RoA team tournament this year that has had controversial/subpar hosting and a ton of issues. RoAPL came with many problems that needed proper solving. Moving forward, I plan to either make a post or have some sort of internal discussion about the state of RoA team tournaments.
Apologies to all parties involved, especially team Argentina and team Northeast. You were both unjustifiably screwed over and I hope we can use this situation to improve the state of these smaller tournaments.
Team Argentina's activity win is not overturned, the tournament will continue as is.
x2
MessiNeymar
I proved all I possibly could. Sucks the host going MIA for 3 days (especially after that decision) caused it to be too late when I appealed the same day, but obviously some things are out of our control. I respect the reasoning of Excal and Tsunami here, so I'm done fighting. Golden009 I hope this is a learning experience for you and I hope all is ok with you IRL in light of your recent absence.
Good luck to Argentina. It was not the prettiest ending, but I hope you have fun in the semifinals. Maybe don't attack people for calling out an incorrect decision next time; I really just wanted my team to get a fair chance and they confirmed the activity win was incorrect.
Ok, I'm gonna be brief and give my own lil policy suggestion, even clearly I'm way less experienced nor involved than other users that posted.
If we are talking about bad precedents, what I consider a horrible one is taking for real the possibility of retroactively deleting an already started round because of an appeal made by a losing team of the previous week. Imagine the gigantic multiplication of appeals everywhere, and specially here, if such decision is made by the hosts. People grabbing any minimum mistake, distraction or just lack of professionalism of their last round opponents to try and stop an already started round, with people having prepped and taken their times to battle getting bamboozled by the possibility of all their work getting reversed, maybe just for having to repeat all again. Also it opens questions like: how much time can pass since the next round started for an appeal to be able to cancel it? And what should be done with the games already played? Are those officially erased, or if the team that originally classified survives the appeal, they are still valid and accounted for, even if the appealed team had to work and put their efforts on two teams in one week? That's what I call a horrible precedent, and there is a reason why a sport match getting replayed once it's ended is extremely rare, and utterly impossible to see a round with games played getting canceled to repeat a previous round match for any kind of appeal.
My proposal here is simple. Given the impossibility of retroactively remaking the week without leaving a very dangerous precedent, if the act call is deemed as erroneous, the ones that should be penalized here aren't team Argentina, it's the hosts. US' critics are against their decision to move on, and to the lack of swift and fair decisions. The tour should continue, with support and supervision of the next in importance over the hosts, like Amaranth said, the RoA leaders. After that, the hosts should be penalized with the incapacity of hosting tours of big importance (definition at criteria of the leaders that, at the end of the day, approved them as hosts), but not for ostracizing them, but for making time for them to gain experience hosting less important events. I've worked already with around 10 users that wanted to host and that wanted to learn from their mistakes, only in the Randbats environment, and I'm sure there will be a lot of opportunities for doing so here as well.
Edit: welp Excal posted while I was writing this. Anyhow I think it's a nice measure to take, for everyone to understand that sometimes mistakes are just a sign that it's time to learn, and hopefully Smogon can have that policy view on things like this.
If we are talking about bad precedents, what I consider a horrible one is taking for real the possibility of retroactively deleting an already started round because of an appeal made by a losing team of the previous week. Imagine the gigantic multiplication of appeals everywhere, and specially here, if such decision is made by the hosts. People grabbing any minimum mistake, distraction or just lack of professionalism of their last round opponents to try and stop an already started round, with people having prepped and taken their times to battle getting bamboozled by the possibility of all their work getting reversed, maybe just for having to repeat all again. Also it opens questions like: how much time can pass since the next round started for an appeal to be able to cancel it? And what should be done with the games already played? Are those officially erased, or if the team that originally classified survives the appeal, they are still valid and accounted for, even if the appealed team had to work and put their efforts on two teams in one week? That's what I call a horrible precedent, and there is a reason why a sport match getting replayed once it's ended is extremely rare, and utterly impossible to see a round with games played getting canceled to repeat a previous round match for any kind of appeal.
My proposal here is simple. Given the impossibility of retroactively remaking the week without leaving a very dangerous precedent, if the act call is deemed as erroneous, the ones that should be penalized here aren't team Argentina, it's the hosts. US' critics are against their decision to move on, and to the lack of swift and fair decisions. The tour should continue, with support and supervision of the next in importance over the hosts, like Amaranth said, the RoA leaders. After that, the hosts should be penalized with the incapacity of hosting tours of big importance (definition at criteria of the leaders that, at the end of the day, approved them as hosts), but not for ostracizing them, but for making time for them to gain experience hosting less important events. I've worked already with around 10 users that wanted to host and that wanted to learn from their mistakes, only in the Randbats environment, and I'm sure there will be a lot of opportunities for doing so here as well.
Edit: welp Excal posted while I was writing this. Anyhow I think it's a nice measure to take, for everyone to understand that sometimes mistakes are just a sign that it's time to learn, and hopefully Smogon can have that policy view on things like this.
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My question is where did we attack you?
we only defended our team
#OphionGiveTheMoneyBack
Good to see that the overturned decision was overturned, ironically, not because of the kindness and good sense of the tournament hosts, but for the sudden possibility that this tournament would become a total failure with other teams forfeiting, and all that stuff. By the fact that you were at first admitting there was a "de facto" scheduling attempt from team Argentina; then ignoring the events that succeded those scheduling attempts (which were widely explained and exposed by mixwell, our vice-captain); and finally trying to overturn a fair decision that was already taken, after three days, not only affecting the normal development of this tournament and the teams who were already involved in the process of scheduling/getting their games done for this round, but also suspiciously acting in favour of a better-prestige team (cuz yeah, I'm pretty sure that if roles were reversed, Team Argentina would've been taken as some sort of a joke) and giving up to the pressure of those who weren't as committed for bringing a sub or even press their players for scheduling their games within the established deadline; this decision could've been pure bullshit, and just another nonsense commited by the hosts of this tournament (after that weird deadline extension on Round 1 that gave the chance for clinching a seed in playoffs to some teams UK and Spain lol who shown a total lack of interest in getting their games done onto the established deadline, and forced a four-team tiebreak). Glad that it didn't happened. Bravo.
Edit: #OPHIONGIVETHEMONEYBACK
Edit: #OPHIONGIVETHEMONEYBACK
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#OphionGiveTheMoneyBack
i'm doing well, thank U friend
