Lower Tiers DPP Ubers Discussion Hub

DPP Ubers Discussion Hub

(Artwork WIP)

This thread will function as the place for everything DPP Ubers related - viability rankings, metagame discussion, replays, team dumps, underrated sets, you can all post it here. Don't worry about not being familiar enough with the meta to post either, anyone can post questions or fun and cool things they encountered or thought of!

Resources (if you have anything to add, just let me know and I will):
Ubers Old Gen Hub - Viability rankings can also be found there, and should be update soon-ish
Viability Rankings (old)
Sample Teams
Speed Tiers
Basic & Advanced Guide to DPP Ubers - Relatively dated, but still useful
Iris' Lead Guide
Lasen's Lead Guide - More recent than Iris' guide
Sleep Mechanics - This is a Darkrai tier after all​
 
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Since UPL and DPP PL are also both in finals week and coming to a close, I'm gonna tag all players who played DPP Ubers in either of these tours. To all these players: please share your experience playing this tier and building for it in these tours! Share your teams, game recaps, sets, meta notes, whatever, it is all welcome :)

UPL: Highlord BKC Chill Shadow Tomahawk SoulWind Inspirited obii Terracotta Void Lord Thorx steelskitty Aishia
DPP PL: Skysolo steelskitty 64 Squares byronthewellwell col49 Zayele JabbaTheGriffin Staxi TSR Finchinator Emeral Safes Fc M Dragon Lord Thorx Lauriane Luna's Banned now johnnyg2 Lasen

I will also personally share my thoughts in a couple of days, of course.
 

Lasen

smiling through it all
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Since UPL and DPP PL are also both in finals week and coming to a close, I'm gonna tag all players who played DPP Ubers in either of these tours. To all these players: please share your experience playing this tier and building for it in these tours! Share your teams, game recaps, sets, meta notes, whatever, it is all welcome :)

UPL: Highlord BKC Chill Shadow Tomahawk SoulWind Inspirited obii Terracotta Void Lord Thorx steelskitty Aishia
DPP PL: Skysolo steelskitty 64 Squares byronthewellwell col49 Zayele JabbaTheGriffin Staxi TSR Finchinator Emeral Safes Fc M Dragon Lord Thorx Lauriane Luna's Banned now johnnyg2 Lasen

I will also personally share my thoughts in a couple of days, of course.
this didn't @ me for some reason. Also, I have a more up-to-date lead guide that I worked on which Jackie hid in FARceus resources, I don't know why.
As an aside, I wanted to do a more in-depth lead guide that ranks all leads and what each one does but it got pushed aside due to irl - I might slowly pick it back up soon now that it's summer time.
 
this didn't @ me for some reason. Also, I have a more up-to-date lead guide that I worked on which Jackie hid in FARceus resources, I don't know why.
As an aside, I wanted to do a more in-depth lead guide that ranks all leads and what each one does but it got pushed aside due to irl - I might slowly pick it back up soon now that it's summer time.
Highlord BKC Chill Shadow Tomahawk SoulWind Inspirited obii Terracotta Void Lord Thorx steelskitty Aishia
Skysolo steelskitty 64 Squares byronthewellwell col49 Zayele JabbaTheGriffin Staxi TSR Finchinator Emeral Safes Fc M Dragon Lord Thorx Lauriane Luna's Banned now johnnyg2 Lasen

Hopefully the tags work now! If this is the first message you see, please scroll up to post #2
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
So I had some problems following the metagame this year and it definitely showed in my mediocre (at best) season. I went into it wanting bring fatter Groudon + Jirachi/Heatran/Skarm + flex Dialga anchored things that I used to have quite a degree of comfort with. However, the more I tried to bend and shape them to fit my opponents and the more I got Terracotta to share his criticism of what I had built began to reveal just how flawed these types of teams are. There is a lot of stuff to cover and these teams just don't do it as well as their counterparts unless you really have a strong read and this just happens to fit the bill. They aren't what I would call solid anymore and that was a bit of a shocker. That being said, the one week I did build and bring it is one I definitely could have won despite being outplayed, out-teched (that lumchomp was brutal), and out-lucked but I could chalk that up to a match-up fish with Trick Room Dialga and a couple of preplanned plays I would have to make.

The Bulk Up Dialgas returning really punished the low amount of stacking + phazing that is currently in play. Their issues still exist but they tend to make the team or team choice in general unstable. There are many things that can just run up on you and ruin your day in this tier and this one just happened to be forgotten until recently. How we adapt balances for this without making things unstable elsewhere is still somewhat unclear to me.

Other than that, none of Weavile's issues have gone away with it being unable to reliably limit Deo-S to 1 hazard while also being safe from Superpower; I can say the hack HO (Froslass/Deo-S, Groudon, Dialga, Mewtwo, Lucario, Latios) is still pretty darn brutal if anything goes its way and Swift Swim is as strong as ever; And I do think we are due for a rise in Specs Kyogre stuff again which may seem counterintuitive with Tentacruel usage being as high as it is, but I do have a few ideas on how to fit it in meta again.

Overall, this year felt very MU fishy (a detail that says I should have listened to Terracotta more) from my perspective and I think that stemmed from my losing sight of where the metagame was going until my season was already over. There is quite the amount of forces driving it forward currently and all I can do is do my best to see where they lead.
 

Emeral

toward new horizons
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
First of all, I would like to mention that I'm not an Ubers expert at all. However, I wanted to share some of thoughts because I felt like it might be interesting to have the point of view from a builder that had no previous experience. If you are interested in the DPP PL game from where this team comes from, you can click here to watch the replay.

The (legit?) team with the OU guys!!!!

Capture.PNG

My starting point was that Spikes are excellent. With the wonderful spinblocker that is Giratina-O compared to the shit spinners that are Tenta, Forry or Kabutops and with all of the Dialga, Palkia, Kyogre, Jirachi, Groudon, Garchomp, Mewtwo etc... that are dominating and vulnerable to Spikes, it makes a lot of sense that Spikes can be used to both force the issue in terms of progress and to keep threats under control.

1/ spikes keep pretty much everything under control as long as I have tools to generate offensive momentum.

If my opponent is forced to switch out as I threaten it, but it can not because of spikes then im gonna force kills. However, i need to be worry about opposing Spikes existing as well, so I basically wanted to have a way to get a favorable matchup in those spikes war. Enter Scarf Flygon:

flygon.png

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- U-turn
- Dragon Claw


Why scarf Flygon in Ubers?
  • Scarf Flygon's coverage is able to hit most of the metagame of super effective or at least neutral damage. What is not hit super effectively like Groudon or Kyogre takes Spikes damage that compensates for its only 100 BS Attack. Staples such as Dialga, Jirachi, Giratina, Kyogre, Lati@s, Groudon, Palkia, Garchomp, Darkrai etc.. are vulnerable to Flygon + Spikes.
  • 100 BS Speed is more than enough to threaten everything non-scarfed. 100 BS attack is respectable with STAB Earthquake / STAB Outrage or Dragon Claw notably because it will hit super effectively most of the time.
  • U-turn hits Lati@s, Mewtwo and Darkrai supper effectively
  • Flygon is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes where there is no Clefable bullshit: everything is timered; ressources are counted, switches are limited.

2/ Setting up spikes reliably

I was kinda hyped by Skarmory at first glance, I think it does a GJ at shrugging off some attacks and generating momentum out of that. However, using Skarmory as a Spiker means that Spikes may be delayed as it 1) needs to find an opportunity to enter the field 2) need to stay healthy + it conceeds momentum by offering switches on Spikes turn. Considering how fast this metagame is, it's inevitable that some games are going to spiral out of control / im gonna have to conceed a lot of ressources to get those up when using Skarmory if it doesnt have a golden matchup.

So yeah, went with the easy way: suicid lead Froslass or Deoxys, Spikes are so reliable that its worth conceeding a slot for those. I liked that Froslass was pretty good against Deoxys/Tentacruel which puts me off to a good start against what's trendy.

froslass.png

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Icy Wind
- Shadow Ball
- Destiny Bond


Good old Froslass, Taunt felt non-needed. I would rather get all my hazards up than spending a turn to prevent Stealth Rock. I thought Skarmory was uncommon enough to the point where I could go tauntless without much drawbacks. On top of that, Froslass does have Destiny Bond, which might clutch some games.

3/ Keeping Spikes up reliably

giratina-origin.png

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 52 Atk / 200 Def / 200 SpA / 56 Spe
Rash Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp


Spinblocking, nothing will spin, got slapped naturally. Giratina looks like both an excellent hazards keeper and abuser. Steel-types won't appreciate the Spiky Draco Meteors + smthg like Lati@s wanting to switch out of Shadow Sneak makes Spikes proactive, again its all about forcing the issue. Will-o-Wisp for Skarm. Defense EVs are nice for Groudon and such.

4/ Shrugging off Uber powerhouses + generating momentum out of that

tyranitar.png

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 188 HP / 64 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Superpower


Usually in OU, people tend to dislike rocks Ttar for justifications that I can understand. There are indeed a lot of physically oriented powerhouses flying around like Breloom notably, physicals HOs, Jirachi being the main pivot steel type everywhere etc.. Many stuff that may put you on the backfoot when using SR Ttar. However in ubers, the balance is reversed as special threats are dominating and even the main pivot steel type, Dialga, is specially oriented. Those facts mean that Ttar should be able to find opportunities to enter the field while not opening up the door freely to some annoying powerhouses.

Why Ttar in ubers?
  • THE SAND: weather reset, damage sticking, abusing sand immune mons
  • The combination of Ttar + Quagsire + Spikes makes Kyogre extremely pressured/Rain strategies hampered
  • The uber metagame is full of special threats that Ttar can shrug off + many of them are pursuitable. Ofc there are the Lati@s twins, Giratina but even smthg like Choiced Palkia or Kyogre is fairly pursuitable.
  • Ttar hits hard and the most popular pivot steel, Dialga, is weak to Superpower. From what I've seen, "CTRL F Ttar switch ins: no result" isnt uncommon. People like to rely on offensive momentum + 1 pivot like Groudon or Dialga to hold on threats but in the case of Ttar, Spikes pressuring those options is smthg I like. Same for Kyogre, switching into Crunch + Spikes is death sentence
Using Flygon and Ttar obviously opens up some defensive holes, especially for Kyogre. Enter the Quag:
quagsire-f.png

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic/Earthquake
- Encore
- Recover
- Yawn


Why Quagsire tho?
  • It's always interesting to pair sandstorm immune mons with Ttar as damage sticking vs healing in sand makes a significant difference vs stuff like Giratina, Palkia or Kyogre
  • Quagsire is a blanket check to Kyogre and provides some help against Dialga or Jirachi. Can tank random hits..
  • Encore + yawn means that Quag will force the threat out in a way or another as I dont wanna rely on its pitful 85 BS Attack to trade with Uber powerhouses. In a metagame where switches are limited, free turns it gets should end up bein rewarding
  • QUAG IS SICK
As a result with this specific setup, Quag is a mix between an offensive tool that goes forward and a pivot that denies progress. Felt like some powerhouses in Ubers are so strong and centralizing that using blanket checks specifically for them is worth it. Especially if they fit the dynamic of the team and provide valuable defensive utility outside of what they're supposed to check. Earthquake or Toxic, not sure which one I prefer for that slot.

5/ Fitting the remaining holes and abusing the mechanics of the team

jirachi.png

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Body Slam


Jirachi is supposed to do the same thing it does in OU. I think I can already imagine people being like "Yoo wooow wtf are you doing those kind of sets don't work in ubers" LOL.

Why Protect 3 Atks Jirachi in ubers?
  • Dragon resistance, Outrage locks punisher
  • 100 BS is pretty interesting speed tier for ubers as it outspeeds Rayquaza, Groudon, Giratina, Dialga and ties with fully invested Palkia
-> Jirachi is pretty unique as it's the only Dragon resist with that speed tier, no other steel-type could fit such a niche for this squad.
  • Spikes abuser: most of its switchin ins, are limited by spikes. To name a few, we have Groudon, Kyogre and Palkia that are the most common go-to Jirachi and all of those get weakened by Spikes
  • Sand immune is obviously good alongside Tar and Flinch + Protect combo. Like in OU, surviving a hit, paralyzing then flinching down to full health is.. possible? like why not LOL I feel like Jirachi could quickly spiral out of control, even in ubers although it's way squishier.
  • Status: Jirachi is known for being able to survive pretty much so it is likely many trades are gonna end up in Jirachi's favor if Body Slam lands
  • Jirachi is Jirachi, it could flinch a whole Groudon if you asked him to do so. With Spikes easing it, it looks like it could do some interesting stuff.

Max speed for the speed tie with Palkia why not lol and max Atk because its not that strong and I don't wanna be healing Kyogre with Iron Head. My reasoning here was that Jirachi could act as a potentiel finisher if the right conditions are met or in any case apply some pressure/make progress forward.

I wish I could go a bit more in depth but my free time is pretty limited lately so I'll stop there. As I said, im absolutely not an Ubers expert, just experiencing for fun :) Let me know

team: https://pokepast.es/99024a3bb6b264c8
 
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JabbaTheGriffin

Stormblessed
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I don't normally do these topics but I love DPP Ubers so much I'll drop a fly by on this. Here are the teams I made this season:
https://pokepast.es/3a5316d18b485a93
https://pokepast.es/2fe9d1624a1d674f
https://pokepast.es/430fca5951790d33

I think I'm missing one but I forget what I did with it.

Most boomers probably know I was a very active DPP Ubers player back in the shoddy days. Back then, the meta had obviously not fully evolved and I would say the biggest difference is the lead metagame. Back then, it had not nearly been optimized. Near the tail end of the meta and then subsequent early PLs and random tournaments, you sort of saw a full transition into the lead meta you see today. And I would say it hasn't really evolved too much since then. A few mons have snuck in, but they're not SUPER viable and very fishy imo (Tenta being the biggest example). I will say though, that while the lead matchup is obviously a big factor in early momentum, it feels less determinative than it does in OU (and OU even isn't THAT determinative). You can get hosed in the lead mu and still win pretty easily. Still not sure what I think the most consistent of the leads is. Would need more play to figure that out.

I brought pretty much the same style of teams I used to run back in the day, just updated to match current trends. I've always been a big proponent of the easiest way to win in DPP Ubers is to click Draco Meteor and other orbed attacks. To that end, a couple mons I used this season that I wasn't big on in the past were Latios and Mewtwo. Latios felt great, Mewtwo felt like a mediocre one for one. Dialga, as always, is the MVP. Most people scarfed it, but offrocks put in the same work for me now as it did 12 years ago. I used G-O a lot more than I used to and while it reminded me why I trended away from it, the defensive utility on offense is sometimes too hard to give up.

One pairing that is in vogue right now that I'm really high on is Ogre + Kingdra. A lot of off just folds to the late game Kingdra and people are a bit loose with keeping their Don healthy.

Anyway, meta is still great and hopefully I get to run some more up next year in either UPL or DPPPPPPPPL.
 
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I think within the current metagame a lot of players tend toward the same Gira-O + Dialga structures regularly, which for me personally meant that when I scouted for UPL pretty much every week I noticed I was prepping partially for this. I think that means a very important part of any team is having a way of beating or having an advantage against this standard kind of team (kind of like the Lax / Zap / Cloy / Golem / Gar structures in GSC but with more variability).

UPL
| 1 | Dialga | 47 | 78.33% | 48.94% |
| 2 | Giratina-Origin | 35 | 58.33% | 51.43% |


DPP PL
| 1 | Dialga | 49 | 87.50% | 46.94% |
| 2 | Giratina-Origin | 38 | 67.86% | 42.11% |


UPL
| 1 | Giratina-Origin / Dialga | 27 | 45.00% | 44.44% |

DPP PL
| 1 | Giratina-Origin / Dialga | 33 | 58.93% | 39.39% |

Dialga itself has insane usage, while Gira-O's usage is also very high. Both tournaments show a very high usage rate of the Gira-O + Dialga core, both hovering around half of all teams using it. Interesting to note is the below 50% win rate, but I think that's a general tendency of mons or combos with this high usage.

Obviously, that leaves half of all teams not using this core, but even then there is a not-insignificant portion maintaining similar structures to the typical Gira-O + Dialga team, just with one of the two being replaced for a mon with similar functions (such as Latias, Jirachi, Lugia, Heatran, etc.).

I'll post some sets/mons here that I noted during UPL that I quite like for this purpose. EV spreads are simplified by the way, consider tuning them to your liking.


Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rest

I only ever used Tail Glow Manaphy before this, but when I realized how good Calm Mind Manaphy is vs standard non-Roar Dialga I had to bring this (and I did, twice). When you consider the most common team structure, Dialga is often relied on as the Kyogre check. When it can not check this Manaphy, that leaves very little options for them to not lose to this. It beats support Dialga by virtue of Calm Mind meaning it tanks Thunder easily, Rests off any damage and Hydration preventing para shenanigans. It can also set up Scarf and Specs Dialga by Calm Minding up and stalling out the 8 Thunder PP.


Ho-Oh @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Substitute / Earthquake
- Roost

Ho-Oh can really beat up some teams like no other, whether it is midgame SubRoost or lead Lum / Band. Very hard to switch in on and also just tanks a lot of strong hits surprisingly well. It also really helps that stuff like Groudon rarely uses Edge anymore (cause Dragon Claw is mostly better exactly for Gira-O. Consider a standard Gira-O / Dialga core and its common partners and it's clear that this mon wrecks havoc and is hard to not lose 2 mons to it. However there is a clear downside: its major Stealth Rock weakness. This means it pretty much only works on Sun teams or as a lead.


Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch

Not perfect against every Gira-O + Dialga team, cause this does get checked by Scarf Dialga, as in my game vs Highlord. However, even then it could claim several kills with how threatening it is. I personally like Adamant with some para support, as it is incredibly easy to paralyse Gira-O with a Thunder Wave groudon, but you can also go for Jolly and just outspeed or go for the tie (though most aren't max+ anymore). This also removes the need for Spikes for me that everyone feels is necessary for Luke, but I find Spikes + Luke to be a little limiting teambuilding wise.


Dialga @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast / Earth Power
- Thunder / Earth Power

This could be another strong Dragon type (Latios comes to mind), I just think Specs Dialga is incredible. I personally also find myself guilty to use Dialga as a Dragon-type switchin, which ordinarily works but is also abusable as it does not resist anything. I think special attackers also appreciate the lower use of Blissey recently because it's very hard to find anything else that consistently switches into this. Draco Meteor mauls any non-resist and even some of those don't enjoy taking one. Last two moves allow you to nail one if you're confident. The downside is that you can't use support or Scarf Dialga.



I don't remember if I actually used this in UPL, but clearly good vs Gira-O + Dialga. No set cause there are plenty of options, but you should stick to either Swords Dance or Scarf. I've messed around with Stealth Rock @ Haban sets, but it pretty much wastes Garchomp's best features. The point being: threaten shit with the best Dual STABs in the game. Gira-O and Dialga are both weak to it, Groudon is commonly specially defensive nowadays, other stuff is easy to chip into range. Its only real issues are Bronzong and Skarmory but those are managable (try Life Orb Aqua Tail or Fire Fang in rain or sun if you really want to beat those), and even faster mons. Scarf is probably the more consistent, but gives your opponent room to predict or abuse locked turns. Swords Dance, possibly with Salac and/or Sub to avoid Lati revenge kills, seems like it can really mess with standard teams.


Hariyama @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Payback
- Bullet Punch

This one is not so much an anti Gira-O / Dialga mon, but it still matches up quite nicely vs those teams. This is just one of many random mons I tried to get to work like half a year ago, and this is really the only one that ended up being good (rip Yanmega, Smeargle, Rhyperior, etc). I love this set as a lead, and I really wanted to use it during UPL but did not end up finding the perfect week for it (but almost used it vs SoulWind). It essentially does the same thing vs almost every lead but does it very well, I think it only really loses to Ho-Oh, Kyogre and Mewtwo leads. Fake Out + Payback + BP KOes through any amount of bulk + Colbur for Deo-S, limiting it to one layer, as well as other Spikes leads like Froslass, Deo-A, Tenta, etc. It also has Toxic Orb so it beats Darkrai, beats Tyranitar, etc. It's also just hard to switchin, cause it hits hard and tanks a lot more than you might expect it to: your first instinct might be a Gira-O switchin, but it can't KO with Draco and just gets Paybacked. Be careful to not allow too much pivoting though, or the poison damage can add up.
 
Hi everyone, I've made a set compendium for most mons on the VR (omitted D rank and a few C- ranked mons). The motivation to make this came from being annoyed at the datedness of the analyses on-site, especially with how doing damage calculations is cumbersome with the absence of many common sets (SpDef Groudon, specially offensive mixed Giratina-O, etc etc). With that in mind, Lauriane and I made a paste of all the sets in the compendium that can be imported into the calculator, and I hope this can also be helpful for others to look at and find a spread / set if necessary.

When using the paste, be careful of the natures on mixed attackers - the worst culprits are probably the coverage moves on Deo-S, and Hasty / Naive on mixed Rayquaza. 'Itemless' refers to non-boosting items like Choice Scarf / Leftovers, and most of the +speed sets are left with a Docile nature in case of needing to calc an unexpected mixed set. Every set in the paste has four attacks that we chose as most likely to be seen, but in some edge cases (Blissey, Giratina-O) this leads to the presence of useless moves or not enough slots.

Feel free to message me if you notice any errors/lacunae.

:dialga: Dialga
Dialga @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 244 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock / Earth Power
- Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Roar / Thunder Wave / Protect / Toxic

Dialga @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder / Fire Blast
- Sleep Talk / Thunder / Earth Power / Aura Sphere

Dialga @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe OR 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder / Earth Power / Aura Sphere
- Fire Blast

Dialga @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy / Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Rest / Substitute
- Sleep Talk / Roar / Protect / Thunder

Dialga @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / Aura Sphere
- Thunder / Earth Power
- Stealth Rock

Dialga @ Expert Belt / Adamant Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 144 Atk / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Mild Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage / Brick Break
- Fire Blast
- Thunder / Earth Power

Dialga @ Expert Belt / Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Blast

Note: The last set is only seen as a Baton Pass recipient, but it's the most common recipient by far. You need a Modest nature and Fire Blast to OHKO Groudon at +2 after Stealth Rock.


:kyogre: Kyogre
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 92 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave

Kyogre @ Lum Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunder Wave
- Ice Beam / Icy Wind
- Thunder / Water Spout

Note: This is the standard Lum lead set.

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 240 HP / 244 Def / 24 Spe
Bold / Modest Nature
- Surf
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Kyogre @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe OR 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder / Sleep Talk

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 144 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Thunder
- Substitute


:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin
Note: Giratina-O has many possible spreads, feel free to edit as necessary.

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 64 Atk / 196 SpA / 252 Spe OR 64 Atk / 200 Def / 188 SpA / 56 Spe
Naive / Rash Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Sneak
- Thunder / Hidden Power Fire
- Earthquake / Roar / Outrage / Will-O-Wisp

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Aura Sphere / Thunder / Earth Power

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 56 HP / 244 Atk / 24 Def / 72 SpD / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Outrage / Substitute / Will-O-Wisp
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw / Shadow Force

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 200 Def / 196 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk


:darkrai: Darkrai
Darkrai @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot / Thunder
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast / Substitute

Darkrai @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam / Focus Blast / Nasty Plot / Thunder Wave

Darkrai @ Chople Berry / Focus Sash / Lum Berry
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt / Focus Blast
- Thunder Wave / Will-O-Wisp / Nasty Plot

Note: This is a dedicated lead set; the scarf set is also usually (but not always) a lead.

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dark Void
- Pursuit / Sucker Punch
- Brick Break / Focus Blast / Focus Punch
- Thunder / Ice Beam / Swords Dance / Substitute


:groudon: Groudon
Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful / Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw / Lava Plume
- Thunder Wave / Toxic / Lava Plume / Roar

Note: You can use a physically defensive spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD with an Impish nature as well on certain builds.

Groudon @ Leftovers / Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 112 HP / 248 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch / Swords Dance
- Rock Polish

Note: Rock Polish sets, especially the Rock Polish + Swords Dance variants, can run significantly more bulk than the above (e.g. EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 184 SpD / 56 Spe ). A good speed benchmark to hit with such a set is 230 speed (this requires 56 EVs and outspeeds base 90 Choice Scarfers after a Rock Polish).

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 128 SpD / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Substitute

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 200 HP / 196 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Fire Punch / Dragon Claw


:latias: Latias
Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 112 HP / 204 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
- Thunder / Grass Knot / Roar / Refresh
- Recover

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 104 HP / 208 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Grass Knot / Thunder Wave
- Recover


UPDATE October 2023: I left the old spread in for posterity and since it also has some merit still, but nowadays you should really just run max speed on non HP-fire Latias.


:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed
Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD
Calm / Bold Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt / Stealth Rock
- Trick
- Thunder Wave

Deoxys-Speed @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 164 SpD / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed
- Spikes
- Shadow Ball / Stealth Rock

Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Extreme Speed / Superpower / Psycho Boost
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes

Deoxys-Speed @ Colbur Berry / Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 100 HP / 156 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock / Shadow Ball

Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Rash Nature
- Spikes
- Shadow Ball / Signal Beam
- Extreme Speed
- Psycho Boost / Hidden Power Fire


:mewtwo: Mewtwo
Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere / Thunder / Flamethrower
- Recover

Mewtwo @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Aura Sphere
- Ice Beam
- Self-Destruct
- Fire Blast / Thunder

Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Ice Beam / Aura Sphere
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Note: Old versions of the above set (stalltwo) would often only creep Latias, but nowadays opposing bulky CM mewtwo is a major threat, so all variants should run maximum speed.

Mewtwo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere / Self-Destruct
- Grass Knot / Thunder
- Self-Destruct / Trick

Mewtwo @ Lum Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flamethrower / Low Kick / Psychic
- Signal Beam
- Icy Wind
- Self-Destruct

Note: This is a lead set. Feel free to change the coverage as needed.


:jirachi: Jirachi
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Thunder Wave / U-turn / Body Slam / Thunder
- Wish
- Protect / U-turn / Stealth Rock

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Healing Wish / Ice Punch
- Trick
- U-turn / Healing Wish


:tyranitar: Tyranitar
Tyranitar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 176 Atk / 80 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty / Lonely Nature
- Payback / Crunch
- Fire Blast / Taunt
- Superpower / Low Kick / Earthquake / Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Atk / 80 SpA / 68 SpD
Brave Nature
- Superpower / Low Kick
- Fire Blast / Taunt
- Payback
- Stealth Rock / Pursuit / Stone Edge

Tyranitar @ Leftovers / Custap Berry / Chople Berry / Shuca Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 48 Atk / 212 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Pursuit
- Payback / Crunch
- Fire Blast / Stealth Rock
- Superpower / Low Kick / Thunder Wave

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 64 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Payback / Crunch
- Low Kick / Superpower / Earthquake
- Fire Punch / Crunch / Stone Edge

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Ice Punch / Stone Edge
- Superpower / Low Kick

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry / Shuca Berry / Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Crunch / Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance


:latios: Latios
Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Recover
- Surf / Calm Mind / Dragon Pulse / Roar

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Grass Knot / Calm Mind / Thunder
- Recover

Note: There's also a very rare DD set that I didn't include here - it can be purely special, but sometimes it can use Outrage to try to 2HKO Blissey at +1.


:rayquaza: Rayquaza
Rayquaza @ LIfe Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Rash Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / Overheat
- Outrage / Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

Note: Overheat is still a fairly rare tech move as of October 2023 - it's mainly useful with a Rash nature, since it's one of the very few ways Bronzong can be OHKOed in rain.

Rayquaza @ Focus Sash / Lum Berry / Custap Berry
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty / Mild Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake / Stone Edge / Brick Break
- Extreme Speed

Note: This is the lead set for Rayquaza. A Mild nature is listed as an option, but that is only for the lead set; you can also drop the Atk EVs and run maximum speed. Brick Break is fairly mediocre, but it used to be the most common option many years ago, so it's not unlikely you'll run into it.

Rayquaza @ Life Orb / Lum Berry / Haban Berry
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Overheat / Extreme Speed
- Earthquake / Extreme Speed

Rayquaza @ Life Orb / Silk Scarf
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake / Overheat / Outrage

Note: I slashed Jolly first on the Swords Dance set because it's better, but Adamant is actually more common, especially on older builds.

Rayquaza @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake / Extreme Speed / Thunder Wave


:garchomp: Garchomp
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Sleep Talk

Garchomp @ Haban Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Aqua Tail / Fire Fang / Outrage
- Swords Dance

Garchomp @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
IVs: 30 HP
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Swords Dance


:palkia: Palkia
Palkia @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Hasty Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Thunder / Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump / Surf / Fire Blast
- Substitute / Focus Punch

Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Hasty Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Surf / Hydro Pump / Draco Meteor
- Thunder / Fire Blast
- Sleep Talk / Outrage

Palkia @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Thunder / Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Hasty Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Thunder / Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Fire Blast / Outrage / Focus Punch

Palkia @ Haban Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Surf / Fire Blast
- Thunder
- Draco Meteor / Focus Punch

Palkia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful / Sassy Nature
- Bulk Up
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Aqua Tail / Thunder / Sleep Talk
- Rest


:skarmory: Skarmory
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Taunt / Toxic


:forretress: Forretress
Forretress @ Leftovers / Occa Berry / Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes / Toxic
- Payback / Explosion / Protect / Rest
- Rapid Spin

Forretress @ Chesto Berry / Focus Sash / Lum Berry / Occa Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Rest / Payback / Explosion / Pain Split
- Rapid Spin

Note: The second set is a dedicated lead set for stall teams. The first set can also be used as a lead (lefties + tox + tect).


:blissey: Blissey
Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Def / 248 SpD
Calm Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock / Heal Bell / Healing Wish
- Toxic / Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss


:kabutops: Kabutops
Kabutops @ Choice Band / Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Low Kick
- Aqua Jet / Swords Dance / Rapid Spin


:heatran: Heatran
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD OR 248 HP / 132 SpD / 128 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume / Flamethrower
- Toxic / Earth Power
- Protect / Stealth Rock
- Roar / Taunt

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Explosion


:bronzong: Bronzong
Bronzong @ Leftovers / Occa Berry / Custap Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Payback / Trick Room / Hypnosis
- Earthquake
- Explosion

Note: You might also see Toxic + Protect, Gyro Ball, and Grass Knot sets, but they are significantly less common than the above. Hidden Power [Fire] also exists.

Bronzong @ Custap Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room / Payback
- Gyro Ball
- Explosion
- Earthquake


:tentacruel: Tentacruel
Tentacruel @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 200 HP / 20 SpA / 68 SpD / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Icy Wind / Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Rapid Spin

Tentacruel @ Focus Sash
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump


:ho-oh: Ho-Oh
Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe (can also run more speed if you want, keep 208 HP EVs though)
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Substitute / Protect
- Roost

Ho-Oh @ Lum Berry / Passho Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Roost / Sleep Talk

Note: The above is a lead set; you can run maximum speed with a Jolly nature if you prefer. The Choice Band set can also be used as a lead.

Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Sleep Talk

Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 180 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Toxic
- Whirlwind / Light Screen
- Roost

Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 40 SpD / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Roost / Sleep Talk


:Deoxys-Attack: Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 20 Atk / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Rash / Naive Nature
- Thunder / Psycho Boost / Hidden Power [Fire] / Superpower / Taunt
- Spikes
- Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
- Extreme Speed

Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 20 Atk / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Rash Nature
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed / Psycho Boost / Shadow Ball


:lucario: Lucario
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch
- Swords Dance


:wobbuffet: Wobbuffet
Wobbuffet @ Leftovers / Custap Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 28 HP / 228 Def / 252 SpD
Calm / Bold Nature
- Encore
- Mirror Coat
- Counter
- Safeguard / Destiny Bond


:scizor: Scizor
Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Atk / 252 SpD OR 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit
- U-turn

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Roost
- Pursuit
- U-turn

Scizor @ Occa Berry / Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- U-turn / Bug Bite


:kingdra: Kingdra
Kingdra @ Life Orb / Splash Plate / Draco Plate
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Mild Nature
- Surf
- Waterfall
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage

Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 240 Atk / 80 SpA / 188 Spe
Lonely / Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Draco Meteor / Substitute


:mew: Mew
Mew @ Lum Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 208 HP / 84 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Explosion / Fire Blast
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

Mew @ Lum Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 188 SpD / 68 Spe OR 248 HP / 156 SpD / 104 Spe
Calm / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rock Polish
- Nasty Plot / Swords Dance
- Taunt
- Baton Pass


:manaphy: Manaphy
Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe OR 184 HP / 252 Def / 40 SpD / 32 Spe OR 248 HP / 164 Def / 64 SpD / 32 Spe
Timid / Bold / Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Grass Knot
- Rest
- Calm Mind

Manaphy @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Grass Knot
- Rest


:froslass: Froslass
Froslass @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe OR 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty / Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Ice Shard / Icy Wind / Thunder Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt / Destiny Bond


:giratina: Giratina
Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp / Earthquake
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Protect / Will-O-Wisp

Giratina @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball / Outrage
- Aura Sphere
- Thunder / Hidden Power [Fire]


:cresselia: Cresselia
Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Toxic / Lunar Dance
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Moonlight


:shaymin-sky: Shaymin-Sky
Shaymin-Sky @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute / Protect
- Leech Seed
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare

Shaymin-Sky @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Fire] / Leaf Storm
- Healing Wish / Leaf Storm / Earth Power

Shaymin-Sky @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Ice] / Healing Wish


:lugia: Lugia
Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Roost

Note: Weather Ball is a cool option on sun, but is practically unheard of, so it's not slashed.

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Whirlwind / Toxic
- Substitute
- Roost
Note: A Bold spread with no speed investment can also be used on this set.

Lugia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Roost
- Trick


:gliscor: Gliscor
Gliscor @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Taunt / Substitute / Ice Fang / Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Roost

Note: Gliscor can also run a few different setup sets with or without Baton Pass, but, as these are pretty esoteric, I've omitted them for brevity. These sets include a Rock Polish + Swords Dance EdgeQuake sweeper, sub pass, and agi pass.


:ludicolo: Ludicolo
Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 204 HP / 52 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Ice Beam / Surf / Grass Knot
- Substitute
- Protect
- Leech Seed


:qwilfish: Qwilfish
Qwilfish @ Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic Spikes / Destiny Bond
- Taunt / Spikes
- Waterfall / Thunder Wave
- Explosion / Destiny Bond


:quagsire: Quagsire
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Encore
- Earthquake / Yawn
- Toxic


:cloyster: Cloyster
Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Payback
- Spikes / Ice Shard
- Toxic Spikes / Spikes / Explosion
- Rapid Spin


:clefable: Clefable
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave / Healing Wish / Knock Off
- Encore / Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled


:metagross: Metagross
Metagross @ Lum Berry / Occa Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion

Metagross @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake / Trick
- Ice Punch
- Explosion

Metagross @ Occa Berry / Shuca Berry / Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Explosion
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Rock Polish


:hariyama: Hariyama
Hariyama @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Payback
- Bullet Punch / Ice Punch


:victreebel: Victreebel
Victreebel @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 32 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest / Mild Nature
- Solar Beam
- Weather Ball
- Sleep Powder
- Sleep Talk / Sucker Punch


:magnezone: Magnezone
Magnezone @ Custap Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Rash Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Endure / Metal Sound / Thunder Wave
- Explosion
- Magnet Rise / Hidden Power [Ground]

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Rash Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Ground] / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunder / Flash Cannon
- Explosion


:heracross: Heracross
Heracross @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Sleep Talk
- Stone Edge / (null)


:salamence: Salamence
Salamence @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast


:infernape: Infernape
Infernape @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Mach Punch

Infernape @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Overheat
- Close Combat / U-turn / Endeavor
- Stealth Rock


:shiftry: Shiftry
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot / Grass Knot
- Focus Blast
- Explosion

Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Swords Dance / Seed Bomb
- Sucker Punch
- Explosion
- Low Kick


(credit to Iris for some of the spreads)
 
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Hippowdon is a notable omission from this discussion.

Code:
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
- Toxic
Hippowdon's bulk and access to recovery allows it to set up Stealth Rocks in many situations where other Stealth Rockers cannot. Support Groudon, even with SpDef investment, typically does not risk setting Stealth Rocks up on dragon types such as Rayquaza and Dialga in fear of being crippled by a Draco Meteor. Hippo easily shakes off Draco Meteors and stalls out mixed Outrages with Slack Off.

252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 292-345 (69.6 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 214-253 (51 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
140+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 229-271 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 321-378 (76.6 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

STAB Earthquake threatens many of the abundant steel types in the tier such as Dialga, Jirachi, and Heatran and prevents switch-ins from pokemon without recovery. Toxic rounds out the set by crippling common Earthquake switch-ins with ground immunity such as Giratina-O, Latias/Latios, and Lugia.

0 Atk burned Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 232-276 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippo fulfills additional key roles on a stall team with its ground typing and Sand Stream. Having a ground pokemon discourages Thunder locked scarfers or even Thunder spam from a mixed attacker like Giratina-O. Sand Stream cancels out the effects of opposing weather, which helps stall teams deal with water move spam in rain. Hippo does this more reliably than Tyranitar, again due to its bulk and access to recovery. Sand has the additional utility of chipping away at many ubers that do not run Leftovers such as Giratina-O, Palkia, Latias/Latios, and Darkrai, which pairs well with Protect stall.

Additional calcs:

Hippo walls Giratina-O, which is one of the greatest threats to stall teams.

64 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 196-232 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
248 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 192-226 (45.8 - 53.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
216+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Force vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 207-244 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
216+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 207-244 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

Max special attack Giratina-O doesn't break Hippo.

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 252-297 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippo walls scarfers and forces them out.
252 SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 225-265 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 160-190 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippo struggles with Grass Knot Latios but can live if at full HP to cripple Latios with a Toxic.

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 348-410 (83 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippo takes a +2 Dark Pulse from Darkrai and 2HKOs with Earthquake (well, it would if it could survive).
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 237-280 (56.5 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 130-154 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
 
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Lasen

smiling through it all
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Do you guys think that the VR for this tier be updated? It seems pretty dead atm.
I forgot to ask to update this thread, but we did update the VR just this week! You can find the new VR here until we update this thread so it no longer reads "old". A lot of changes happened as you might be able to tell, with the A and C ranks getting smaller while the B ranks all got much more crowded. We're also (very slowly) looking at potential new samples, so stay tuned for that!
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
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Here are my viab ranks:

S
:Dialga:
:Giratina-Origin:

S-
:Kyogre:
:Groudon:

A+
:Latios:
:Latias:
:Darkrai:
:Deoxys-Speed:
:Garchomp:
:Palkia:

A
:Mewtwo:
:Jirachi:
:Tyranitar:
:Rayquaza:

A-
:Deoxys-Attack:
:Tentacruel:
:Lucario:
:Bronzong:
:Heatran:
:Kabutops:
:Skarmory:
:Forretress:

B+
:Scizor:
:Ho-Oh:
:Wobbuffet:
:Lugia:
:Giratina:
:Quagsire:
:Ludicolo:
:Manaphy:
:Kingdra:
:Shaymin-Sky:

B
:Blissey:
:Qwilfish:
:Mew:
:Froslass:
:Omastar:
:Cloyster:

B-
:Gliscor:
:Clefable:
:Dugtrio:
:Cresselia:
:Metagross:

C+
:Salamence:
:Infernape:
:Abomasnow:
:Magnezone:

If you're interested, I put my thoughts on each placement in video form:

Been super enjoying your coverage of the tournament dude— glued to your vids every lunch break since the tournament started.

Thanks for these viability rankings too— so cool to see Forry putting in so much work considering how “meh” it is in DPP OU and how much it struggles in later gens. Actually it makes me rethink if Forry might be worth a go in OU… if we think of playing it the way Ubers players do with Giratina-O around, maybe Forry can do similarly well even against Rotom-A, and there’s been so little Nidoqueen on the ladder when I’ve played recently…

Anyway, keep it up BKC
 
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So DPP Ubers ladder is here for the month again and it is once again clear that Baton Pass needs to be banned from this tier. This tier is volatile as is with games sometimes coming down to one play, one turn of RNG, or revealing a certain mon or set, etc. and Baton Pass teams take that and dial it up to 11. Baton Pass is known in other metas for watering the game down to the point a few turns, or even one, decide the outcome of the game. It is waaaaaay too easy to get free turns to set up and pass through methods such as Darkrai's sleep, Wobb, and Mewtwo's fast screens. The teams running around on the ladder have been utilizing a 4 attack Dialga to receive Nasty Plot and Rock Polish boosts, which is very easy to get in safely because of its bulk and typing, near impossible to revenge with priority, and can commonly end up OHKOing an entire team just because it has 4 attacking moves to choose from. The worst part is that you have no idea you are even facing a Baton Pass team until they send out their Mewtwo and start putting screens up, so there is not much you can do to be proactive against the threat of BP. If you have to position yourself in a way that you don't give a BP team a good opportunity to win on the spot even if you don't KNOW you are even facing one, that is a major problem that needs to be addressed. It is simply not reasonable to require players to be proactive about the possibility they are facing a Baton Pass team when it has no even been revealed yet. You also have no idea what they will even pass into necessarily because of the lack of team preview. You might assume they are passing to Dialga because that's the most common recipient but they could just as easily bring a back up recipient that ruins you, and you wouldn't even know until its most likely too late.
I laddered up to top 25 and then from that point on the vast majority of my losses have been to BP teams, and exclusively Mewtwo > Mew > Dialga teams so that is not even considering the fact that I could get screwed expecting a pass to Dialga but they bring something else out instead.

Ban Baton Pass. It's a broken relic of tiering from a time when it wasn't commonly banned.
 
Yeah this BP shit needs to go. Sucks all the fun out of the tier to have to constantly counterteam / play around the potential of a mewpass team. I think it's unreasonable to expect players to account for it in the builder and during the game. Metagame is just too powerful and volatile to handle it.
 

London Beats

is a defending World Cup of Pokemon Championis a Past SCL Champion
UPL Champion
Although I don't know if this is proper place to discuss such a thing i will make clear my opinion about the matter: BP is indeed, shockingly, annoying. You don't need any sort of skill to play it and you are just gambling in matchup. It is very difficult, almost impossible, to argue that BP brings any healthy interaction to the tier; there are no usages of baton pass besides the bad/disgusting teams of suicide leads + mew brothers setting screens and passing boosts to the sweepers that suits you better. My main problem with this kinda of interactions/teams is that they constrict the builder, although they are not broken since you can have tools to just humilliate them there are a lot of teams or structures that cannot afford such a thing, losing since the very beginning of the whole interaction with no window to play the game besides a random critic that happens to save you the day. Then why is it not banned? I personally believe it is just laziness insteads of just meta knowledge, you do neither need to watch nor play a lot of games to end with such a take, dpp ubers is a low tier from an old gen more than 10 years old so people have just left the things as they are, which is a very poor approach in my opinion.

When any ban appears in the floor people tends to ask how will the meta develop after the ban. To be brutally honest, no significant change will happen. The biggest change will prolly be that many teams that basically are 6/0ed by random set uped dialga will now be useable instead of a gambling, since as i said many offense structures struggles against the baton pass combination.

In my opinion, DPP ubers is a perfect metagame where almost any structure is viable, where creativity plays an instrumental role in the builder, and having that creativity constricted by a random playstyle that is arguably lacking of skill, its just a travesty. So ye, if there would be any tiering action about this matter i think it should conduct to the ban of the aforementioned move.

PS. i am a month late yikes.
 
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My Viability rankings for DPP ubers
S Rank
S
1699689478521.png
Dialga
1699689494972.png
Kyogre
S-
1699689507764.png
Giratina-O
1699689584326.png
Groudon

A Rank
A+
1699689637236.png
Deoxys- S
1699689654727.png
Darkrai
1699689674076.png
Bronzong
1699689690118.png
Latias
1699689720596.png
Mewtwo
1699689711102.png
Palkia
A
1699689769318.png
Rayquaza
1699689828695.png
Tyranitar
1699689797408.png
Jirachi
1699689807836.png
Latios
1699689848336.png
Foretress
A-
1699689895572.png
Blissey
1699689909157.png
Skarmory
1699689956047.png
Garchomp
1699689970081.png
Deoxys-A

B Rank
B+
1699690019770.png
Kabutops
1699690031450.png
Ho-oh
1699690055019.png
Qwilfish
1699690065711.png
Heatran
1699690569383.png
Lucario
1699690584398.png
Giratina- A
1699690171842.png
Wobuffet
B
1699690338864.png
Kingdra
1699690198728.png
Froslass
1699690212952.png
Tentacruel
1699690371401.png
Lugia
1699690383421.png
Cresellia
1699690403939.png
Manaphy
B-
1699690456316.png
Ludicolo
1699691021005.png
Mew
1699690683730.png
Scizor
1699690697818.png
Shaymin-Sky
1699690728357.png
Gliscor
1699690739529.png
Clefable
C Rank
C+
1699691140420.png
Magnezone
1699690968669.png
Hariyama
1699691073278.png
Victreebel
1699691282901.png
Metagross
1699691236785.png
Infernape
1699691261282.png
Cloyster
C
1699691314169.png
Omastar
1699691323691.png
Dugtrio
1699691345755.png
Shiftry
1699691458526.png
Deoxys- D
1699691483642.png
Weaville
C-
1699691502836.png
Celebi
1699691516669.png
Quagsire
1699691537736.png
Salamence
D Rank
1699691598648.png
Deoxys-N
E Rank
1699691644473.png
Wynaut
 

Attachments

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Notification made me want to talk about DPP Ubers so here's a really nice lead Ttar set I made for some of my teams a while ago

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 200 HP / 136 Atk / 80 SpA / 92 SpD
Brave Nature
- Payback
- Superpower
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge/Rock Slide

Ttar really excels as a lead in my opinion when you focus solely on attacking and dedicate rocks to another team member. This set matches up very favorably against all the common leads besides Kyogre, Chople Darkrai, and faster Ttars with a fighting move, and limits most of the hazard leads to one layer plus maintaining full health (colbur deoxys speed can get 2 layers but you still keep Ttar at full). The spread lets you take an Adamant CB EQ from Ho-Oh so you can always stay in on it and take it out, if you hit that is (with Lum you don't need to worry about a burn fish). Rock Slide can be used to help secure that match up with better accuracy and more PP for potential pressure stalling sets in the lead slot but Stone Edge also brings Ray to sash (or kills a non-sash lead). Rock Slide still puts Ray in rocks range so it's not that much of a damage tradeoff. The bulk also lets you take anything that Ray would normally use in the lead slot (you pretty much always live max attack sash Brick Break which isn't a thing anyways, and live jolly CB EQ). The SpDef let you take unboosted Focus Blast from Darkrai so, combined with Lum, you can always stay in on Darkrai lead and kill it with Superpower unless its modest Scarf and gets the roll or is Chople. The special attack lets you OHKO max SpDef Forre and you also do around half to SpDef Skarm, rest in Attack for max power.
While the set is really nice to have in the lead slot for how much it matches up positively against, there are a few downsides. First, you lose to Kyogre lead (and any Kyogre follow ups in general) so you need to have a team that's sturdy against Ogre, and you also let Groudon in with minimal risk so your team should have a good way to capitalize on Groudon switch ins. You also obviously have to relegate another team member for Rocks, but considering you usually end up up 6-5 and limiting your opponent to one hazard off the lead match up it's a worthy trade imo. Additionally, being as slow as it is without Custap you have minimal utility later in the game if you get it weakened in the lead match up and save it, besides weather clearing and fodder. In general even if you are against something like a Kyogre and switch to keep it for later you don't have as much utility as a different Ttar set outside the lead. You can't switch into Dracos too well, for example you need hazards to be clear to take 2 Dracos from Latios, and without Rocks or Pursuit you don't have much to do besides throw out attacks that may or may not dent your opponent's team.
 

shrang

General Kenobi
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Got some interesting sets that I've found in the last year or so. Most of these are niche mons although not all of them


Staraptor @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Sleep Talk

Was looking for fun mons and this one is pretty cool. Basically imagine that it is feasible to run Scarf Ho-oh in DPP Ubers (it actually might be but it looks pretty difficult and the gain isn't as much) and your Scarf Ho-oh also happened to be able to U-turn. That's what Staraptor does here. Brave Bird is pretty strong and raptor has good coverage and can pivot out with U-turn. Even if it does nothing, Intimidate still makes sure that you're never left with no value from this mon.
Downsides are that its longevity is still pretty bad - 2x Rocks is not as bad as 4x Rocks weak but it's still shitty, especially when you're taking BB recoil. Sleep Talk is a slot on here but I wouldn't feel very safe switching it into Darkrai anyway since you take a million damage even from unboosted Dark Pulse, so you could just change the last slot to something better like Endeavor/Return/Double Edge or something.
Still, this is a fast, decently strong mon that is pretty self-sufficient in the end of the day.


Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunder / Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Explosion
- Trick

I might make a bigger niche Ghost-type post some time later, but essentially there's been lots of times where I'd build a team where I need a spinblocker but neither of the Giratina formes ticks all the boxes on what I need from the last mon. I basically then started branching out options and saw that hey, depending on the situation, some of the lower ranked Ghosts actually may fit your slot just a little bit better if the downsides of running said Ghost is not critical.
Gengar is probably the most viable of all those non-Giratina Ghosts (apart from Froslass that has an established niche). To be honest I think Gengar is quite unexplored and there are probably more sets that are viable. One thing that Gengar can do that pretty much nothing else can is check DD Ray, SD Ray and SD Lucario at the same time, no matter how healthy you are. Granted - if you're running Thunder you'd need a bit of chip on Lucario (just click your -2 Draco one more time) and a Close Combat SpD drop to KO with Thunder, but if you're running Focus Blast you have a 70% chance to revenge Lucario from full. Nothing else, with the exception of maybe Fire Punch Jirachi in the sun can do this.
But wait - there's more! Fire Punch/Ice Punch Jirachi can revenge all variants of DD/SD Ray/SD Lucario, but can it stop Scarf Chomp? What about Adamant Kabutops in the rain? You can also check the average RP Groudon that only aims to outspeed Scarf Chomp. On top of that, you can spinblock at least once so if your HO team just needs that 1 turn of spinblocking, it can do that. Explosion lets you check just about anything that's not a Baton Passed Dialga if you absolutely have to. TrickScarf is also very useful, especially against said BP teams since you can come in on Mew using Rock Polish and they tend to just run enough speed for Deo-S so you can just Trick them when they think they can Taunt you.
Obviously, there are downsides. Gengar is actually kind of weak without any boosting items. As mentioned you need a bit of chip and SpD drop for you to KO Lucario with Thunder. HP Ice only does like 40 to fat RP Groudons too so if you're not healthy you fail to KO that thing (if you're healthy you may live a +0 Dragon Claw and deal more damage with another HP Ice). If in doubt and you really need something gone just click the boom button. There's also being Pursuit weak but it's not super common so you might be okay.


Ekiller at home (Linoone) @ Power Herb
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Dig
- Shadow Claw

As you know, I got very upset (and still am) about Farceus being banned. Basically, this was my attempt to cope with not being able to use Ekiller on my Wobb HO teams. The problem with Linoone is not that it can't sweep lategame, it absolutely can, the problem is that unlike Ekiller, it's too weak without the setup move and therefore contributes very little from a defensive standpoint.
You absolutely need to use this with Wobb otherwise you'd never find any turns to set up. One common place is when people lock their Giratina-O into Sneak so it can't get killed by your Wobb and this is a fun way to punish them for it. Once you're at +6, if your opponent doesn't have a fat Groudon/Giratina-A/Skarm or Scarf Dialga/Jirachi/Gengar or Kabutops they are toast. Back Deo-A can also revenge kill you since I'm not running Salac but back Deo-A is a fucking unmon anyway.
The beauty of this set is that previously people would always discount Linoone since you can't hit Steels with it outside of weak Rock Smash. I think with the knowledge of newer gens and the fact that Power Herb is actually a viable option on certain things, you can retrospectively bring this back and make it viable. +6 Dig does 98% minimum to SpD Dialga and that's probably the fattest grounded Steel you'll find. Bronzong gets 2HKOed by +6 Shadow Claw and can't OHKO you in return without having to boom (imagine trading your Bronzong for a Linoone) unless they're using Gyro Ball.


Ekiller at home (Raticate) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Facade
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch

This thing is so fucking stupid but it's so funny that I have to include it. Again, this is looking for funny normal types (maybe I should do a bigger post on this as well) that can switch into Encored Sneak from CREATINAAA and set up to do big damage. If you get +1 it hits way harder than linoone, and Facade even without a boost actually hits decently hard. If you get the opportunity to set up though, this hits like an absolute truck. You 2HKO Bronzong with +2 Facade and they *surprise surprise* can't OHKO you back unless they have Gyro or something (so again, imagine sacrificing your Bronzong for stupid rat). Be careful using this with Safeguard Wobb though - if you haven't been burnt yet, Safeguard stops Flame Orb working when it's up.


Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 168 HP / 132 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute / Taunt
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall / Earthquake
- Outrage / Ice Fang / Stone Edge / Bounce

Okay, now we're getting into some more legit things. I've pretty much kind only got this mainly figured out yesterday (don't worry I have tested this out extensively but have only really figured out the EV spread yesterday), but Gyarados has some really good qualities about it. The main one, like what it does in ADV OU, is that it's a Dragon Dancer that doesn't take too much from Ice Beam. The main target for this Gyarados is obviously Cresselia, who is a really good counter to Rayquaza/Salamence/Garchomp but is absolutely helpless against Gyarados. Like in ADV OU, the space in which Gyarados can operate is pretty small, but when it gets the right matchup and setup, it's an absolute force. Like in ADV OU, it takes a bit of effort and jockeying to really squeeze the most out Gyarados. The other thing is even if Gyarados achieves nothing, Intimidate still provides value.
This set aims to work as an anti-Eclipse/sun stall mon. Being Flying-type means you're not bummed by Toxic Spikes like a lot of the Swift Swimmers/Ogre/Palkia are. Substitute is preferred in standard DPP Ubers since if you want to set up on Eclipse, you really want to be able to set up on Groudon, and if you don't have Sub they can just spam Lava Plume to fish for burns which given how many turns you need to set up is a very real possibility. Taunt is preferred in Farceus since Roar is more common on pretty much everything since it prevents Ekiller set up turns and for Groudon to actually stop Ekiller.
So there are 2 main ways of using this. The first way is to slap this onto something like Highlord 6 or other rain HOs that tend to be a bit sun stall weak and it synergises pretty well. If you're not facing sun stall you got a decently strong Water-type attacker that can probably attempted to break a couple of walls. If you are facing sun stall then you have a win condition on your hands. Waterfall/Outrage are best moves to use if you're using rain offense to maximise your access to rain and maximise coverage.
The other way to use this is to try and use it a bit more independently. I actually find Groudon to be a really good partner to Gyarados even if it deletes your Water moves. Defensively, they synergise really well with each other. Thunder being 50% accurate is a boon to Gyarados. The downside is that you have effectively no STAB, but given Gyarados is a slow win condition, that's probably not so bad. In this case, you really need something to take down Bronzong because you can't do much to it without a Water attack. The 2 more reliable moves to use would be Ice Fang and Earthquake since they maximise your super effective coverage. Outrage and EQ are fine, but locking into Outrage really restricts your ability to change tact if need be.
Other options in the last slot are Bounce if you want a good neutral STAB out of rain and Stone Edge which lets you fit Gyarados onto sun BO as a potential Ho-oh check since Ho-oh absolutely fucks those teams up. In both of these cases, use EQ as your coverage move.
EVs currently are there so you outspeed Scarf Chomp at +2. Note you're outsped by Darkrai/M2/Skymin at +1 which kind of sucks but given you're really setting up slowly with this, it's not a big deal. The other option you can use in the current metagame climate is run Jolly since most people run Modest on their Scarf Dialga/Kyogre anyway so you may be able to get away with it. 168 HP lets your Subs live standard Gira-O Shadow Sneak all the time without needing Intimidate, have your Sub live Bronzong's Payback most of the time without needing Intimidate and have Sub live Dclaw from Groudon after an Intimidate. Just a note about the power - if you're using Ice Fang, even at +6 you're still only doing about 40% to Cresselia. You do have 3x the PP as Moonlight, so if you can get something to smack Cresselia a couple of times and use up a few Moonlights that would help Gyarados out in the long run.


Groudon @ Life Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch / Rock Polish
- Dragon Claw

Idea I've been floating around recently and admittedly haven't tried it much yet but I think it has good potential. Giratina-O's are getting slower and bulkier again currently so it takes a 1-2 more Stealth Rock switch-ins or a bit more chip for Groudon to break it with Dragon Claw. Without +2 AND Life Orb, Groudon cannot OHKO current Giratina-O with Dragon Claw. Life Orb sets tend to just run RP, and Double Dance sets tend not to run Life Orb. I think it's time (at least in the current climate) for Groudon forego the clean up/sweep job and move into pure wallbreaking with SD and 3 attacks. To be honest, I think if you have lots of ways to weaken Bronzong then you can drop Fire Punch for Rock Polish. +2 LO Fire Punch is still useful for Cresselia though.
So basically, most base 90s don't run a lot of Speed these days unless they're a Scarfer. Exception obviously do exist (fast SpecsOgre, fast SubCM Gira-A, Lucario) but I think if you run Jolly Groudon, unless they're a Scarfer, you can count on your Groudon to win the speed tie. Even if not, you're tying them at worst. Adamant max Speed is also an option which I'd try out as well.
Damage with LO and SD are quite massive. +2 EQ will always OHKO Kyogre after 1 layer of hazards no matter how fat they are. +2 Dragon Claw will OHKO 0/200 Giratina-O after Rocks (even without Rocks it does like 94% minimum). Even Cresselia can't wall you reliably since +2 LO Fire Punch does 50% minimum and Ice Beam does 40% maximum so you can potentially just go to +4 or even +6 and take yourself down along with it. Lugia needs Reflect to beat you otherwise you can just SD again to +4 vs Calm Mind variants and take it down; Giratina-A is probably the only thing that can really stop you and CREATINAAA needs to not miss Wisp otherwise it's toast.


Deoxys-Speed @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Sunny Day

Ever wanted your Deo-S to set up 2 layers on both Kyogre and Tyranitar leads? This set is for you! To be honest when I initially thought of this I thought it was going to solve all of my Deo-S lead problems. It didn't, mainly because you're weaker against other attacking leads like Ray and gives you less options against other Deo-S/A leads (no Espeed for Deo-A, no Thunder Wave vs TrickScarf Deo-S leads).
However, this works pretty well. You can now set up 2 layers vs TTar (I think Banded Payback might still KO you) and vs Ogre leads, you can avoid a 2HKO vs even Water Spout vs every Ogre lead that's not a Specs lead (see, now that Specs leads are a bit more common, it's less cool but back about a year ago this was pretty funny).
 
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