Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra]

I'll admit I'm not too deep into the current meta but I was trying to help a friend build a mono-fairy team because most of their favorite Pokemon are fairies, and I'm struggling to think of another mon that completely invalidates entire types quite like Melmetal does. I can't be the only person who considers it something of an issue that you just can't reliably use certain types because they are completely shut down by a single Pokemon. I mean all you really need is to look at the chart wkxkevin put up and see how few things can stand up to its primary STAB with maximum defensive investment, and that's ignoring its coverage potential. If there's another Pokemon out there that has a presence that's comparable to how oppressive Melmetal's is, I'd love to hear it.
For, comparison means we can consider Landorus-therian because of its amazing 145 attack and 91 speed but the middling bulk and not a better defensive typing like Melmetal is not you want to have while the others with highest attack are Haxorus which has a small niche of dragon dance sweeper but gets outclassed by Dragonite because of Multiscale and Regigigas has no niche in mono normal because of the ability slow start and the comparable damage but on special side can be given by Blacephalon with its immense 151 special attack and fantastic ability in beat boost but it has no defenses and dies to any priority and while Xurkitree may seem promising its 173 special attack and beast boost its lackluster speed means its not gonna probably find a spot on electric and Spectrier has 145 special attack 130 speed which is nuts but its coverage is walled by literally every dark type and it is frail.
TLDR:While some Pokemon's can reach Melmetal Damage level the amazing natural bulk defensive typing combined with incredible support steel can give it is pretty powerful for this meta In My Opinion.Honestly,Banning Melmetal can lead to fun and non restrictive Metagame
 
@thelegendsrevamped, Unlimited Breadsticks

You guys are honestly missing the mark. The fact that you guys are arguing the melm is unswitchable rather than melm doing really well vs steel's counters is laughable. On fairy, kleki can easily set up a reflect and behind a reflect, Azu can safely set up BD and sweep the entirety of steel. The problem is not that melm is unswitchable because there are switches. The only types that cannot switch into band melm is rock and ice. Two types that already gets completely destroyed by steel regardless. Melm doesn't even help steel that much other than kill one mon and get threatened out by G-Darm. Yes, superpower or flare blitz is an ohko with max hp melm. Every type has decent switches and melm often get's chicked a lot by rocky helmet and iron bards/rough skin. The problem is not melm itself. Yall are just complaining about a strong mon similar to specs zapdos. and aegislash.
 

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@thelegendsrevamped, Unlimited Breadsticks

You guys are honestly missing the mark. The fact that you guys are arguing the melm is unswitchable rather than melm doing really well vs steel's counters is laughable. On fairy, kleki can easily set up a reflect and behind a reflect, Azu can safely set up BD and sweep the entirety of steel. The problem is not that melm is unswitchable because there are switches. The only types that cannot switch into band melm is rock and ice. Two types that already gets completely destroyed by steel regardless. Melm doesn't even help steel that much other than kill one mon and get threatened out by G-Darm. Yes, superpower or flare blitz is an ohko with max hp melm. Every type has decent switches and melm often get's chicked a lot by rocky helmet and iron bards/rough skin. The problem is not melm itself. Yall are just complaining about a strong mon similar to specs zapdos. and aegislash.
No offense, but I find it hard to decipher your stance on this, and you use a lot of logical fallacies. You're saying Steel's core is restrictive and that Melm isn't broken, but you are the person who made a list of the fact that a bunch of mons with unviable spreads simply can live a DIB. You proceeded to mention that there are roughly 4 types that can reliably check Melm which were all types that have access to or already run things that resist DIB. Then you mentioned how Intimidate (something a small margin of types get) and Wonder Guard (something only one type gets, and the mon is unviable) also helps beat Melmetal. You keep saying Melmetal is not broken yet you are basically proving that by showing it's lack of consistent counterplay in the meta. Your argument about Fairy is a slippery slope fallacy based on circumstantial games that you have no proof for. You're simply assuming that Klefki will setup a Reflect, and that Azumarill will be in a spot to Belly Drum and sweep. I'm not disagreeing that Steel's core or whatever is too strong, and I don't disagree that Fairy can outplay steel. But with Melm being gone I think it heavily nerfs Steel to the point where it's not restricting. I mean roxie's post showed Rocky Helmet spam just to help deal with Melmetal. You had also mentioned this in your chart post that rhelm helps deal with Melm, but I simply cannot believe that you think spamming abilities that is not universal across typings in the meta and items that are not widely usable or viable is the way to go about this. You also said "if said checks/counters are enough, let it say, if not, boot it out". To me, this is a black and white way of thinking and it goes deeper than running max HP/Defense on mons who are unviable with those spreads and then saying if these work it can stay, because hardly any of those spreads are viable in the real meta. I understand the chart was just for show and tell basically, but I just find it weird that you made a chart proving Melmetal is absurdly annoying but then taking a different stance. With that being said, no need to insult other people above saying they are laughable for having an opinion, much like how you have your own opinion.

Aside from that however, I do think Melm is very restricting on the meta right now and while I wish I had more examples of this, I think everyone who has commented on this (specifically Hyper, Mushamu, Roxie, and Maroon) have outlined this better than I could, but I do want to share this replay.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1405647679-u8vp8ygvjcpc1l11elqa46m5p97ml5zpw
This was in RDL, a Spanish Premier League where by doubling a singular turn, I straight up won with Melmetal, no thought or real skill involved. Even DIB has access to rng chances with flinching which makes it all the more annoying. Across ladder I have been able to do roughly the same thing because the mon is obviously super balanced and healthy. Again, I wish I had more replays or proof but my sentiment on Melm right now is generally the same with most of the community. Worthy of a suspect for sure.
 
@thelegendsrevamped, Unlimited Breadsticks

You guys are honestly missing the mark. The fact that you guys are arguing the melm is unswitchable rather than melm doing really well vs steel's counters is laughable. On fairy, kleki can easily set up a reflect and behind a reflect, Azu can safely set up BD and sweep the entirety of steel. The problem is not that melm is unswitchable because there are switches. The only types that cannot switch into band melm is rock and ice. Two types that already gets completely destroyed by steel regardless. Melm doesn't even help steel that much other than kill one mon and get threatened out by G-Darm. Yes, superpower or flare blitz is an ohko with max hp melm. Every type has decent switches and melm often get's chicked a lot by rocky helmet and iron bards/rough skin. The problem is not melm itself. Yall are just complaining about a strong mon similar to specs zapdos. and aegislash.
The, thing you're missing is that Melmetal reliably 2hko Azumarill being screens and if you're a Melmetal player you run 12 speed to outspeed Adamant Azumarill
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill through Reflect: 250-294 (73 - 85.9%) -- approx. 2HKO
and yea Klefki is 2hko behind reflect so yea You're spending all your team on Melmetal and Excadrill just cleans the mess so yea
TLDR:Not only melm pressure only rock and ice it has no switchins on many other types which is largely incompetetive and must be banned In My Opinion
 
No offense, but I find it hard to decipher your stance on this, and you use a lot of logical fallacies. You're saying Steel's core is restrictive and that Melm isn't broken, but you are the person who made a list of the fact that a bunch of mons with unviable spreads simply can live a DIB. You proceeded to mention that there are roughly 4 types that can reliably check Melm which were all types that have access to or already run things that resist DIB. Then you mentioned how Intimidate (something a small margin of types get) and Wonder Guard (something only one type gets, and the mon is unviable) also helps beat Melmetal. You keep saying Melmetal is not broken yet you are basically proving that by showing it's lack of consistent counterplay in the meta. Your argument about Fairy is a slippery slope fallacy based on circumstantial games that you have no proof for. You're simply assuming that Klefki will setup a Reflect, and that Azumarill will be in a spot to Belly Drum and sweep. I'm not disagreeing that Steel's core or whatever is too strong, and I don't disagree that Fairy can outplay steel. But with Melm being gone I think it heavily nerfs Steel to the point where it's not restricting. I mean roxie's post showed Rocky Helmet spam just to help deal with Melmetal. You had also mentioned this in your chart post that rhelm helps deal with Melm, but I simply cannot believe that you think spamming abilities that is not universal across typings in the meta and items that are not widely usable or viable is the way to go about this. You also said "if said checks/counters are enough, let it say, if not, boot it out". To me, this is a black and white way of thinking and it goes deeper than running max HP/Defense on mons who are unviable with those spreads and then saying if these work it can stay, because hardly any of those spreads are viable in the real meta. I understand the chart was just for show and tell basically, but I just find it weird that you made a chart proving Melmetal is absurdly annoying but then taking a different stance. With that being said, no need to insult other people above saying they are laughable for having an opinion, much like how you have your own opinion.

Aside from that however, I do think Melm is very restricting on the meta right now and while I wish I had more examples of this, I think everyone who has commented on this (specifically Hyper, Mushamu, Roxie, and Maroon) have outlined this better than I could, but I do want to share this replay.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1405647679-u8vp8ygvjcpc1l11elqa46m5p97ml5zpw
This was in RDL, a Spanish Premier League where by doubling a singular turn, I straight up won with Melmetal, no thought or real skill involved. Even DIB has access to rng chances with flinching which makes it all the more annoying. Across ladder I have been able to do roughly the same thing because the mon is obviously super balanced and healthy. Again, I wish I had more replays or proof but my sentiment on Melm right now is generally the same with most of the community. Worthy of a suspect for sure.
Exactly, I am also saying the same thing it is like the same case of Dracovish where people needed to run water immunity on every time which was not even possible for some types completely invalidating them while Melmetal doesnt have power level of Dracovish but it has its pros like super high attack than dracovish
Calc:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew through Reflect: 266-313 (78 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew through Reflect: 208-246 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- approx. 2HKO
the fact that they have almost same damage astounds me this thing needs to go
Not to mention it can take hits better than Dracovish
 
No offense, but I find it hard to decipher your stance on this, and you use a lot of logical fallacies. You're saying Steel's core is restrictive and that Melm isn't broken, but you are the person who made a list of the fact that a bunch of mons with unviable spreads simply can live a DIB. You proceeded to mention that there are roughly 4 types that can reliably check Melm which were all types that have access to or already run things that resist DIB. Then you mentioned how Intimidate (something a small margin of types get) and Wonder Guard (something only one type gets, and the mon is unviable) also helps beat Melmetal. You keep saying Melmetal is not broken yet you are basically proving that by showing it's lack of consistent counterplay in the meta. Your argument about Fairy is a slippery slope fallacy based on circumstantial games that you have no proof for. You're simply assuming that Klefki will setup a Reflect, and that Azumarill will be in a spot to Belly Drum and sweep. I'm not disagreeing that Steel's core or whatever is too strong, and I don't disagree that Fairy can outplay steel. But with Melm being gone I think it heavily nerfs Steel to the point where it's not restricting. I mean roxie's post showed Rocky Helmet spam just to help deal with Melmetal. You had also mentioned this in your chart post that rhelm helps deal with Melm, but I simply cannot believe that you think spamming abilities that is not universal across typings in the meta and items that are not widely usable or viable is the way to go about this. You also said "if said checks/counters are enough, let it say, if not, boot it out". To me, this is a black and white way of thinking and it goes deeper than running max HP/Defense on mons who are unviable with those spreads and then saying if these work it can stay, because hardly any of those spreads are viable in the real meta. I understand the chart was just for show and tell basically, but I just find it weird that you made a chart proving Melmetal is absurdly annoying but then taking a different stance. With that being said, no need to insult other people above saying they are laughable for having an opinion, much like how you have your own opinion.
Aside from that however, I do think Melm is very restricting on the meta right now and while I wish I had more examples of this, I think everyone who has commented on this (specifically Hyper, Mushamu, Roxie, and Maroon) have outlined this better than I could, but I do want to share this replay.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1405647679-u8vp8ygvjcpc1l11elqa46m5p97ml5zpw
This was in RDL, a Spanish Premier League where by doubling a singular turn, I straight up won with Melmetal, no thought or real skill involved. Even DIB has access to rng chances with flinching which makes it all the more annoying. Across ladder I have been able to do roughly the same thing because the mon is obviously super balanced and healthy. Again, I wish I had more replays or proof but my sentiment on Melm right now is generally the same with most of the community. Worthy of a suspect for sure.
I understand what you mean. I apologize for the confusion. Here is the thing. If you look back at my list, you will realize that one, I made a few errors, especially with the TLDR, two, many of these pokemon do viably runs defensive sets. For example, incineroar on dark and fire can reliable run a defensive parting shot pivot. Second, any type not weak to steel that has access to a water, fire, or steel type reliably check it. Grass has fero, ghost has aegis(you can even burn melm, another counter I did not cover), flying has celes and moltres(again the burn). Type like normal can just bulk up bewear which according to Shrek 5: "invalidates melm." Even types like psychic can run fully defensive slowbro, again a pokemon that can very reliably run a defensive set without melm being a thing. As for the video you showed, the problem is not sub melm is a problem, it's that tox is not running a defensive set. Again tox runs a fully defensive set viably. In conjuction with max def amoonguss, it provides the backbone that allows poison to cover the water MU. I understand my stance is confusing and I acknowledge your argument. I'd be happy to hear your reply for this post.

However, what I do not ackowledge are others like @thelegendsrevamped who, let's face it, are just whining.
The, thing you're missing is that Melmetal reliably 2hko Azumarill being screens and if you're a Melmetal player you run 12 speed to outspeed Adamant
In what world does 12 speed on melm help outspeed adamant azumarill. 12 speed melm is 117 for jolly, 107 for diamond. Non invested adamant azu has 136.
Exactly, I am also saying the same thing it is like the same case of Dracovish where people needed to run water immunity on every time which was not even possible for some types completely invalidating them while Melmetal doesnt have power level of Dracovish but it has its pros like super high attack than dracovish
Why?, bulk up bewear is great on normal regardless of melm, max defense slowbro and defensive parting shot incineroar is insanely viable on both fire and dark. I'd argue that it's almost required, even without melm. In addition, fairy only struggles with CB melm. The whole point of melm is to check the steel checks. With a CB, you die to specs hydreigon and LO SF nidoking E-power. Although it is a big problem for ice, rock, fairy, I don't think we should suspect based solely on that.
 
Excadrill, Heatran and Celesteela are all far better than Melmetal. It makes no sense to suspect a Pokemon that steel players don't even actually use when those are legal.
 
I understand what you mean. I apologize for the confusion. Here is the thing. If you look back at my list, you will realize that one, I made a few errors, especially with the TLDR, two, many of these pokemon do viably runs defensive sets. For example, incineroar on dark and fire can reliable run a defensive parting shot pivot. Second, any type not weak to steel that has access to a water, fire, or steel type reliably check it. Grass has fero, ghost has aegis(you can even burn melm, another counter I did not cover), flying has celes and moltres(again the burn). Type like normal can just bulk up bewear which according to Shrek 5: "invalidates melm." Even types like psychic can run fully defensive slowbro, again a pokemon that can very reliably run a defensive set without melm being a thing. As for the video you showed, the problem is not sub melm is a problem, it's that tox is not running a defensive set. Again tox runs a fully defensive set viably. In conjuction with max def amoonguss, it provides the backbone that allows poison to cover the water MU. I understand my stance is confusing and I acknowledge your argument. I'd be happy to hear your reply for this post.

However, what I do not ackowledge are others like @thelegendsrevamped who, let's face it, are just whining.

In what world does 12 speed on melm help outspeed adamant azumarill. 12 speed melm is 117 for jolly, 107 for diamond. Non invested adamant azu has 136.

Why?, bulk up bewear is great on normal regardless of melm, max defense slowbro and defensive parting shot incineroar is insanely viable on both fire and dark. I'd argue that it's almost required, even without melm. In addition, fairy only struggles with CB melm. The whole point of melm is to check the steel checks. With a CB, you die to specs hydreigon and LO SF nidoking E-power. Although it is a big problem for ice, rock, fairy, I don't think we should suspect based solely on that.
I don't think whining is accurate i'm just showing how powerful Melmetal can be in this metal combined with the amazing support core and yea My Bad I was not in mind while writing that speed sry for that and you yourself said that the Pokemon's in that list are just who take 2 banded DIB not who counter it
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Incineroar: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With no recovery I don't think incin can switch in more than once
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You naturally outspeed Slowbro so it is 50/50 Mindgame
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Melmetal: 404-476 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Specs Hydreigon is a 12.5 percent roll to OHKO
so yeah with good predictions also Incineroar cant switch in many times so yeah the after mentioned Pokemon's can act like soft checks when you know wht opponents Pokemon Is locked into DIB but you cant switch into it
TLDR:Melmetal has very few checks limited to some types and even they only act like soft checks this shows how oppressive Melmetal can be
And a Quick reminder I'm not **whining**
 
Yea This is gonna be a long one i'm listing how much damage can Melmetal do to each type

Steel:While many Pokemon's can switch into DIB superpower and thunder punch are feared
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 440-518 (113.9 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 732-864 (189.6 - 223.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It can also 1v1 Excadrill
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 248-294 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 582-686 (161.2 - 190%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fire:It's the same while many pokes can take DIB superpower and eq are feared
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 220-260 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Max defense tor cant switch into it
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 218-257 (90.4 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO. Nasty polt variants cant switch in
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Heat: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Melmetal can devour a mon in fire to make it easier for scarf Excadrill to clean

Water:while virtually nothing can switch into thunder punch lets take account of some water ground pokemons
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 190-224 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery so gastro is nt a checks even with fully phydef because you get outsped by 5 points
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal in Rain: 382-450 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO cm variants of keldeo cant even OHKO Banded Melmetal in rain with hydropump.

Grass:Fully defensive tang is 2HKO while rotom-mow
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 218-257 (71.7 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
is no where near check so I Ferrothorn

Ice:as previously mentioned no switchins for banded Melmetal while you can Auroraveil and go to Avalugg steel has enough defensive support to stall out veil turns

Rock: No switchins here too

Fairy:no switchins too Azumarill behind reflect is another story.

Electric: Luxray is outright unviable so I Togedemaru Lanturn gets demolished by eq
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 384-454 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Rotom forms like rotom wash may check it but no reliable recovery means you cant check it for long

Fighting: while many cant take banded DIB most of them outspeed and OHKO or 2HKO

Ghost: Even Aegislash kinda falls off as a check and jellicent might will o wisp melm but gets kod with damage on switch and dmg after burn
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 220-260 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Bug:Bug also doesn't have many aside from Vikavolt,defensive scizor

Ground: Ground can checks Melmetal offensively but defensively not many Pokemon live coverage rocky helmet + rough skin is enough for EQ range so Garchomp can do it
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 200-236 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lets just appreciate that Steelix calc Mudsdale thanks to its stamina ability can checks Melmetal reliably while other water grounds cant switch into it reliably

Normal: Bewear is only switchin for mono normal to Melmetal thanks to its ability fluffy.

Dragon:Superpower does quick work of kingdra so only Garchomp
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 241-284 (82.8 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Flying: While most of them cant take thunder punch you can play mind games with Landorus-therian leading to 50/50s
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 216-254 (56.5 - 66.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
lets appreciate this calc too

Poison:Only thing that can take banded double iron bash is Toxapex which falls to eq
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 206-244 (67.7 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but pex can outspeed and Burn the following turn

psychic:Levitate is Boon for Bronzong which forces Melmetal to lock itself into superpower hence giving a free switch
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 150-177 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO

Dark:The One and only Incineroar which falls to eq but can give Hydreigon a free switch which can be a death news to steel

TLDR:This shows how powerful Melmetal is and How good its coverage it combined with amazing stats this thing is a menace I really would like a suspect test on it
I really have no words to say how powerful this thing is.
 
Few things.

1. Melm does do a sh*t ton of damage, but the calcs are only with CB. Either knock the CB off or sack and bring a steel breaker/resist it for free
2. For bug, scizor can easily knock off the CB and give a free switch to buzzwole with U-turn(which takes non banded DIBs very well
3. Incineroar can outspeed and again, knock the CB off, and parting shot into hydreigon which with knock off damage, gives specs flame an OHKO easily, same for earth power
4. On water, yes nothing takes thunderpunch but if it's choice locked, you get free switch into the ground type and fire off a scald that could easily cripple melm with burn or use a ground type move to hit other no flying steel teammates

TL:DR : Melm does lot of damage only with CB which can be easily played around. Non- banded versions are a lot more scarier. For ex, AV melm takes e-power from nido and OHKO with EQ/DIB, which is very good new for steel.
 
Few things.

1. Melm does do a sh*t ton of damage, but the calcs are only with CB. Either knock the CB off or sack and bring a steel breaker/resist it for free
2. For bug, scizor can easily knock off the CB and give a free switch to buzzwole with U-turn(which takes non banded DIBs very well
3. Incineroar can outspeed and again, knock the CB off, and parting shot into hydreigon which with knock off damage, gives specs flame an OHKO easily, same for earth power
4. On water, yes nothing takes thunderpunch but if it's choice locked, you get free switch into the ground type and fire off a scald that could easily cripple melm with burn or use a ground type move to hit other no flying steel teammates

TL:DR : Melm does lot of damage only with CB which can be easily played around. Non- banded versions are a lot more scarier. For ex, AV melm takes e-power from nido and OHKO with EQ/DIB, which is very good new for steel.
1. Sac that is what I am saying I forces sacs everyone and then while you take beeg dmg ot outright kill ur self in the process of knocking the item too.
2.While the process of knocking off the cb if hes locked into super power/eq say goodbye to Scizor if hes damaged or if he shut switched in that means you just dont go into scizor
252+ Atk Melmetal Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 154-182 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3.Incineraoar comes on Eq knocks off band or wisps then fucking dies
4.that mean u need to sac a pokemon for Melm every time which is fuckign stupid coz av variants live scald like ntng burn is really scary tho
TLDR:as he said both banded and av variants are scary as f and are painful to handle if used correctly I certainly think Melm ban will help meta reshape for good of its own
 
Few things.

1. Melm does do a sh*t ton of damage, but the calcs are only with CB. Either knock the CB off or sack and bring a steel breaker/resist it for free
2. For bug, scizor can easily knock off the CB and give a free switch to buzzwole with U-turn(which takes non banded DIBs very well
3. Incineroar can outspeed and again, knock the CB off, and parting shot into hydreigon which with knock off damage, gives specs flame an OHKO easily, same for earth power
4. On water, yes nothing takes thunderpunch but if it's choice locked, you get free switch into the ground type and fire off a scald that could easily cripple melm with burn or use a ground type move to hit other no flying steel teammates

TL:DR : Melm does lot of damage only with CB which can be easily played around. Non- banded versions are a lot more scarier. For ex, AV melm takes e-power from nido and OHKO with EQ/DIB, which is very good new for steel.
I thought it was only just me, if all the Calcs are based on CB then shouldn't it be more about doing the right prediction. Literally majority of the calcs are based of Super Effective hits of course they are going to OHKO/2KHO.
 
I thought it was only just me, if all the Calcs are based on CB then shouldn't it be more about doing the right prediction. Literally majority of the calcs are based of Super Effective hits of course they are going to OHKO/2KHO.
That is what I am saying 1 mispredict and your counter is gone as most of the after mentioned pokemon's have no recovery and you are playing that pesky 50/50 mind games throughout the match which is not fun especially when you have only 1 counter and you need that pokemon to dent the opponents team too
 
Here's the thing, Steel's immunity core can't be weakened by banning any other mon. We suspected Aegislash(Which along with myabe Celesteela was the only other option) but it didn't get banned. You can't ban a mon like Heatran because that just lessens the threat of Steel exponentially. Banning a mon like Melmetal would weaken Steel but not so much that it becomes a mid-tier type.
Melm does deserve the suspect a bit too imo.
 
That is what I am saying 1 mispredict and your counter is gone as most of the after mentioned pokemon's have no recovery and you are playing that pesky 50/50 mind games throughout the match which is not fun especially when you have only 1 counter and you need that pokemon to dent the opponents team too
But doesn't that apply for a lot of matches as well in general and not just Melmetal? 1 wrong predict opponents can set up once or twice. For example, +2 Hydreigon after Nasty Plot OHKOs Melmetal with Flamethrower, 2HKOs Corviknight/Celeesteela, OHKO Excadril, OHKO Ferrothorn, chance to OHKO Aegislash with Dark Pulse, heck you can even run OHKO Heatran with Earth Power. It's faster than the entire Steel team unless Excadril runs a scarf.

Nidoking OHKOs or 2HKOs entire Steel team and is faster than the entire Steel team except Excadril. It only fails to OHKO Melmetal with Assault Vest but you have other mons to deal with it. AV Melmetal doesn't even 2HKO Toxapex with Earthquake. Volcanion OHKOs or 2HKOs Steel too. For Electric teams, if you wrongly predict Earthquake on your CB Mel, enters Rotom-W/Zapdos.

Also, it also applies for Steel teams that if they lose their counter to a certain mon on opponent team, the entire team dies. I can name others but I don't really want to list everything but isn't this what it's about? Making the right predictions and right matchups, savings the right counter for the right mons?

Compared to other mons who were recently banned like Dracovish and Urishifu-S, those mons are a lot faster and can destroy teams easier, Melmetal is literally slower than 99% of the Monotype Meta it's not like it can sweep teams like those mons who were banned.
 
But doesn't that apply for a lot of matches as well in general and not just Melmetal? 1 wrong predict opponents can set up once or twice. For example, +2 Hydreigon after Nasty Plot OHKOs Melmetal with Flamethrower, 2HKOs Corviknight/Celeesteela, OHKO Excadril, OHKO Ferrothorn, chance to OHKO Aegislash with Dark Pulse, heck you can even run OHKO Heatran with Earth Power. It's faster than the entire Steel team unless Excadril runs a scarf.

Nidoking OHKOs or 2HKOs entire Steel team and is faster than the entire Steel team except Excadril. It only fails to OHKO Melmetal with Assault Vest but you have other mons to deal with it. AV Melmetal doesn't even 2HKO Toxapex with Earthquake. Volcanion OHKOs or 2HKOs Steel too. For Electric teams, if you wrongly predict Earthquake on your CB Mel, enters Rotom-W/Zapdos.

Also, it also applies for Steel teams that if they lose their counter to a certain mon on opponent team, the entire team dies. I can name others but I don't really want to list everything but isn't this what it's about? Making the right predictions and right matchups, savings the right counter for the right mons?

Compared to other mons who were recently banned like Dracovish and Urishifu-S, those mons are a lot faster and can destroy teams easier, Melmetal is literally slower than 99% of the Monotype Meta it's not like it can sweep teams like those mons who were banned.
Bruh,the same I am saying but EVEN AFTER A SAC HYDREIGON CANT SWITCH INTO MELMETAL
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 456-536 (140.3 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So, if they go hard or bring it in aggressively that hydreigon theory doesn't exist anymore you need to chip it down with other Pokemon's which most of them steel can handle and Melmetal can even exert pressure on Hydreigon offensively and chip it so that scarf Excadrill does the job av Variants are also amazing i'm just showing how powerful cb variants are
 
Bruh,the same I am saying but EVEN AFTER A SAC HYDREIGON CANT SWITCH INTO MELMETAL
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 456-536 (140.3 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So, if they go hard or bring it in aggressively that hydreigon theory doesn't exist anymore you need to chip it down with other Pokemon's which most of them steel can handle and Melmetal can even exert pressure on Hydreigon offensively and chip it so that scarf Excadrill does the job av Variants are also amazing i'm just showing how powerful cb variants are
Here are some replays of Melmetal losing to Hydreigon in MPL

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8monotype-569500
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1382378283
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1369476172
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1369962382
 

roxie

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If you’re switching a Hydreigon into Melmetal and screaming Melmetal is broken then you really need to evaluate your plays. That really applies to anything, if you need Nidoking to to break past Steel, why switch it into a +2 Excadrill or even switch your own Excadrill vs Alolan Raichu in the Electric matchup. That’s a playing issue, but the issue is the multiple sets it’s able to pull off, it’s bulk, AND the damage output it actually gives off in matchups. I’ve also been enjoying the metagame but certain types like Dark and Psychic causes me to bring Rocky Helmet to check it is where the restrictive part comes in kinda. What are your thoughts on this discussion Kev Zap @other council members besides decem
 
While I agree with roxiee's points, I wanna point out in none of these cases did the actual Hydreigon beat Melmetal, it was always another mon, the only case it did was when it was severely weakened.
Hydrei does beat Melm on certain occasions but these are not the correct replays to showcase it.
 
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If you’re switching a Hydreigon into Melmetal and screaming Melmetal is broken then you really need to evaluate your plays. That really applies to anything, if you need Nidoking to to break past Steel, why switch it into a +2 Excadrill or even switch your own Excadrill vs Alolan Raichu in the Electric matchup. That’s a playing issue, but the issue is the multiple sets it’s able to pull off, it’s bulk, AND the damage output it actually gives off in matchups. I’ve also been enjoying the metagame but certain types like Dark and Psychic causes me to bring Rocky Helmet to check it is where the restrictive part comes in kinda. What are your thoughts on this discussion Kev Zap @other council members besides decem
That is what I am saying A well played Melmetal can scare off Hydreigon forcing a sac or something to chip down Melmetal for Hydreigon to beat and can cause several 1v1s as you said av variants can also scare out nidoking which has potential to 6-0 mono steel with right predictions
 
That is what I am saying A well played Melmetal can scare off Hydreigon forcing a sac or something to chip down Melmetal for Hydreigon to beat and can cause several 1v1s as you said av variants can also scare out nidoking which has potential to 6-0 mono steel with right predictions
Forcing sacs and and sacing off the correct pokemon is what monotype is all about. If you can't do that it's either that you're bad at the game or the MU is scuffed(none of which is melm's fault).
 
Forcing sacs and and sacing off the correct pokemon is what monotype is all about. If you can't do that it's either that you're bad at the game or the MU is scuffed(none of which is melm's fault).
Hey, but forcing a sac every time it comes isn't and the number of 50/50 mind games its leads to is absurd common man you cant predict everything correctly can you
 
Forcing sacs and and sacing off the correct pokemon is what monotype is all about. If you can't do that it's either that you're bad at the game or the MU is scuffed(none of which is melm's fault).
For me the thing about Melmetal compared to many other recently banned mons is that it isn't as oppressive. Sure it does well to synergize with the Steel immunity core but being how slow it is it's a matter of time before it's taken down. Most of the time even after taking down a mon (like for example living through a supereffective hit that takes away more than 60-70% of it's HP) it will probably have its HP chipped off and killed the next time it switches in because of how slow it is.

Unlike lets say Dracovish, who is faster that literally 2HKOs* a max Def Ferrothorn with a RESISTED CB Fishous Rend in Rain, or a Urshifu that 2HKOs a max Def Toxapex with CB Wicked Blow. These mons have good enough speed to take down mons that Melmetal doesn't have because it's so slow.
 
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Ayo bruh the thing is you need to bring in a pokemon that lands that se move safely if your melmetal counter is frail ya need a sac a thing and even if its thicc u need to sac most of time to just take a DIB leave it on 30 percent hp and die to 2nd one and revenge killing it so it either can take 1 or 2 mons with it if bought correctly
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 237-279 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
ive never seen it ko Ferrothorn correct me in that calc if I am wrong
 
I wanted to hold off on giving my opinion on Melmetal, since I didn't want to just repeat the same talking points that everyone has heard by now and my opinion on the pokemon has changed over the last few months. I'll be briefly talking about how I feel on Melmetal itself and what a potential metagame would look like post-melmetal, because at this point its just arguing over plays and calcs instead of addressing the larger picture.

I have mixed feelings on Melmetal, but I think a suspect test is warranted.

Melmetal's restrictive nature in the teambuilder is felt on all playstyles and threatens even the best defensive cores in the game, with substitute devastating stall and some balanced builds, where assault vest heavily pressuring what would be Melmetal checks on offense and choice band is another case of a mon clicking buttons until they win. We all know the calcs and the power level that Melmetal brings to the table and its been talked about to death. Steel perfectly supports this mon with the immunity core backing it up (I still don't think the core is broken, melmetal just makes dealing with it worse, there are better cores in the metagame besides this one defensively) + spikes, rapid spin and healing wish support.
On the other hand, Melmetal's pitiful speed stat and the wide spread of steel resists makes choice banded melmetal exploitable especially since banded trades off a lot of melmetal's longevity on a mon that dislikes spikes heavily. Yes, melmetal has plenty of coverage to take on what would be coming in on double iron bash, namely celesteela, toxapex etc. which makes the problem harder to deal with, however the set that melmetal ends up running really makes your approach to handling melmetal's coverage different.

I do have concerns on how this will effect the rest of the metagame and how it will shift after a Melmetal ban, because I do believe that banning Melmetal will see the rise of a ton of specially oriented threats that may warrant future suspect tests. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, but if the goal is to create a better metagame it helps to think of what that meta would look like without melmetal.

moltres-galar.png


Moltres-Galar instantly becomes far more deadly if it does not have to worry about melmetal staring it down and having to rely on flinches or switching out and losing momentum. Moltres-Galar also has options to shut down defensive counterplay with taunt and substitute or being able to cleave through offense with agility weakness policy sets, which will most likely pick up more usage on teams aside from screens dark. I definitely can see this mon getting a suspect test in a melmetal free metagame.

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Kyurem would thrive in a post-melmetal metagame, not having to worry about getting smacked into oblivion behind a substitute or having melmetal survive a choice specs earth power or focus blast if its assault vest (yes, AV melmetal survives specs focus blast from kyurem, I am as disgusted as you are reading this). Dragon in general would appreciate having steel brought down a few notches, and perhaps having kyurem as a larger part of the metagame would keep dangerous types like flying in check and we may see more experimentation with some of kyurem's coverage options depending on the set.

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Spectrier will most likely see more usage since substitute sets with mud shot can get past mons like bisharp on steel in the wake of a melmetal ban. Spectrier in the past was a very centralizing threat that will probably see a rise in ghost usage since blacephalon may see a small dip as more teams use other options that ghost has to offer. Its hard to say whether or not Spectrier would rise again to the point of being suspect worthy since most steel teams patch up their weakness to spectrier with AV melmetal since Bisharp can fold to +2 mud shot or risk getting burned by will o wisp. Melmetal also doesn't like being burned, but even with only a 116 attack investment on melmetal, it still can force a 2hko on spectrier after rocks and two layers of spikes while dealing damage to spectrier behind its substitute.

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As an offensive threat, Zapdos appreciates a bit more freedom in spamming thunderbolt and heatwave in the steel matchup. I'm mostly putting it here as an obligatory special wallbreaker that melmetal can survive a few hits and force out Zapdos if it goes for tbolt. Defensive/non specs sets on zapdos may appreciate melmetal being gone a bit more, but thats a bit of a stretch.

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Ok free my boy nidoking he did not deserve to be put in a metagame with melmetal. It hurts my soul watching melmetal survive this thing's earth power or playing sacking games vs substitute. Yes I'm salty about it.


I would like to hear more on what people think a post-melmetal metagame may look like, as I'm sure that I overlooked a few things on my brief thoughts.
 

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