Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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scorbunnys

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I missed a few things in the sheet that have now been added to the drops of the post -- most notably the Hail duo of Arctozolt/Ninetales-Alola dropped from A to A-, Garchomp dropped from A+ to A, Rillaboom dropped from A- to B+, Tangrowth dropped from B+ to B, and Kommo-O dropped from B to B-. I apologize for missing these, I added explanations to those that needed them in the post, I edited in the others, and feel free to ask about any of these as well!
I'm also curious on the Tang one now, sorry for asking again just kinda curious. Also why did Rachi rose and why is Celesteela still ranked? Mb for asking too much
 

Finchinator

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really curious why blacephalon didn't rise?
Great question actually!
blace.png

I am with you there, but we did the vote earlier this week and it was super close -- did not want to overrule the council as that seemed unfair, but we kept it as is. As recently as Friday and today we saw a lot of Blacephalon in tournaments though and it is likely to trickle its way onto the ladder, too, so I personally anticipate a rise next slate or a stealth rise if we feel it is appropriate in the meantime. Stay tuned!
Hmm.... Odd, of all things cress did not drop, even as a trick lunar dance on stall, it seems niche as shedinja at the moment. Or has it been getting a lot of traction lately?
Cresselia still has the same niche it did before and finds its way onto teams that warrant that type of support -- Lunar Dance, Trick Room, etc. -- so there is really not much of note here in either direction.
I'm also curious on the Tang one now, sorry for asking again just kinda curious. Also why did Rachi rose and why is Celesteela still ranked? Mb for asking too much
No worries. As for Cresselia, check the answer above.

As for Tangrowth, there is just not much reason to use it as there are other, more practical physical stops and a lot of things abuse it entering on the special end.

As for Jirachi, good match-up vs Tapu Lele, Kyurem, and Slowking-Galar is huge. It also is a nice momentum stop to BO if used properly, which can sway a match-up.

As for Celesteela, it has some fringe applications with offensive sets on HO teams, keeping it barely ranked for now.
Surprised about Garchomp and G-Weezing dropping, personally I would have expected G-Weezing to rise
Garchomp reasoning is in the post, but I still think it is a top 15 Pokemon and could regain A+ status if people find better ways to support the offensive sets, so stay tuned to see how that may develop.

G-Weezing I have seen a grand total of 1 of through 300-400 games over the last month. I do not know what to say -- it has some true niches defensively and utility wise, but if nobody is really using it and there are so many more consistent options, there is a certain point where it falls entirely out of favor and our vote reflected that unfortunate reality.
 

Red Raven

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Why did both Moltres forms rise? And on that note, is that Avalugg below Nihilego? What's it doing here?

Really hilarious to see that Garchomp of all things dropped and the one of the reasons being Weavile's ice shard when its just a situational check to Chomp. I guess no one really cares to use yache on it. And most of the explained rises doesn't seem too surprising but it's really funny to see when a pokemon rises through the vr ranks and suddenly, the entire tier just completely turns against them
 

Finchinator

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Why the random avalugg rise?
Been pretty much a staple on recent stall teams.
Why did both Moltres forms rise? And on that note, is that Avalugg below Nihilego? What's it doing here?
Moltres regular form is a pretty pesky defensive presence with utility options like Defog, U-turn, Mystical Fire, etc. and it does well against a lot of common options like Meletal, Scizor, Volcarona, Rillaboom, etc.

Avalugg is a staple on recent stall teams.
Really hilarious to see that Garchomp of all things dropped and the one of the reasons being Weavile's ice shard when its just a situational check to Chomp. I guess no one really cares to use yache on it. And most of the explained rises doesn't seem too surprising but it's really funny to see when a pokemon rises through the vr ranks and suddenly, the entire tier just completely turns against them
I opened the thread up to questions specifically, not statements of things that are "really hilarious". Please stick to that, thanks.
 
I think if you're lowering Dracozolt to B- then Exca should also be lowered as in my opinion Exca is the worse of the two Sand Rushers.

Zolt breaks Corv, non SPD Lando, and half the tier on its back and is what makes Sand viable. Not only that but it also is not weak to Priority unlike Exca who loses to basically
every main priority user in the tier.

This is coming from someone who thinks Zolt should be lowered to B- as well. In fact I honestly as a die hard Sand player think Exca and Zolt might only be C+ tier.
 

Finchinator

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I think if you're lowering Dracozolt to B- then Exca should also be lowered as in my opinion Exca is the worse of the two Sand Rushers.

Zolt breaks Corv, non SPD Lando, and half the tier on its back and is what makes Sand viable. Not only that but it also is not weak to Priority unlike Exca who loses to basically
every main priority user in the tier.

This is coming from someone who thinks Zolt should be lowered to B- as well. In fact I honestly as a die hard Sand player think Exca and Zolt might only be C+ tier.
This thread is open specifically to questions, not comments or further nominations. If you feel this way, make the appropriate nominations when the 48 hours are up. Thank you.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
My bad. Apologies. But what about the Galarian Moltres rise?

Galarian Moltres was used by devin in OLT a lot with Resto-Chesto-Agility and Nasty Plot and this set can tear holes in the opposing team, with Rest + Chesto Berry making you an outlasting threat alongside Agili-Plot making you faster + a hard hitter at the same time. devin used this set to a big success, this is why Galarian Moltres rises.

Same could be said about its counterpart Kanto Moltres, as devin was using this to a good success as well. Therefore both Pokemon received a rise in the OU VR. MrJamvad used a Kanto Moltres team used by devin in his most recent live, if you want to have that team and play with it.

Hopefully that helped :)
 

agslash23

Banned deucer.
Why did Garchomp drop? It can still break past almost any mon in the tier with the appropriate set, while sporting a valuable typing as well as good natural bulk.

I know Ice Shard can be irritating, which is why Yache Chomp is the best set right now. Not only does it beat Weavile it if has a speed boost, but Yache can also help it beat Adamant Buzzwole with +2 Fire Fang (Slowbro too can be beaten, but it simply switches out to gain HP back). Lefties Chomp is not as good anymore, it's only useful on those teams in which it is the sole Heatran and Zapdos check.

Even stuff like Lum Berry, Roseli Berry, Soft Sand and Life Orb is usable on Chomp. Lum helps it switch into Toxic Heatran, Hurricane Zapdos, Wisp Rotom-W. Roseli helps it beat Fairies like Koko and Scarf Fini and Lele, Soft Sand and Life Orb are usable on HO where Power matters more than longevity.

SR Chomp is still good as well, as SD + Edge pressures most defoggers very well.

Garchomp fits on all offense archetypes and has coverage for all its checks - Fire Blast for Steel Birds and Buzzwole, Aqua Tail for Lando, Stone Edge for Mandi (which is bad anyway)

It may not be the best in the meta, but it certainly has tools to be in the list of Top10 mons
 

agslash23

Banned deucer.
Shifu dropping is a bit surprising too - sure Slowbro is rising, but even then there are only a handful of reliable checks to it that are great in the metagame - Toxapex, Slowbro and Tapu Fini.

Dragonite and Tapu Bulu have declined - as witnessed by the VR drops, Pelliper is only relegated to Rain and other checks like Amoongus are very niche. Dragapult is only a 1 time switch in

Shifu is still one of the toughest mons to prepare for in the builder that should warrant A+ status
 

AM

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Not sure why we're up in arms about Chomp, it's not a top 10 mon even if it's good, it's at like 25 in the cumulative usage stats for SCL currently, and some of the stuff about Yache is a little overblown. There's a lot of effort you have to put to make sure you're not getting its item knocked off for Weavile to revenge it, or just in general because some of the items you can run on it are extremely specific for very specific scenarios they're not catch alls. I don't find using SD Chomp that easy without some dedicated team support, especially since it mandates a turn to get a free set up since the omnipresent Landorus-T makes it annoying, and 3 of the Tapus are on like every team. So in a worse case scenario you're denying Scale Shot set up and then revenging it and at best its getting one maybe two kills unless the game was over anyways through matchup. The way people describe Chomp paints it in a perfect scenario when it usually doesnt happen like that. A rank is also not a bad ranking either so yeah.
 

Mimikyu Stardust

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okay so why did

:glastrier: Glass horse drop? its tier is perfect as it is a bulky strong attacker.

:reuniclus: Reuni drop? its an excelent special tank in stall with regen AV and cancels lele, and the cm set is still perfectly decent (tho not as good)

:charizard: THIS THING is still tiered? im genuinely so confused on why this is still C-. lets take a look at the other C-

:quagsire: - Amazing physical tank in stall that destroys a lot of physical set up sweepers
:hatterene: - An amazing magic bouncer that is almost NEEDED on trick room teams and on its own it can help with teams weak to hazard like sun, or as a standalone cm sweeper with draining kiss (and also specs since there are a few people on the ladder that effectively use it on spike stack)
:shuckle: - Let's be honest, webs is terrible but its still a genuine niche that is still usable and definetly better than zard.
:celesteela: - An amazing HO sweeper and also a special tank, its leech seed set are still perfect in SS despite it falling off and can threaten a lot of top tier threats like ferro, kart, lele, weave, pult and more.
:rhyperior: - Not tiered, but i think i can safely say this has more niche as a general tank, rocker, volcarona counter, glowking counter, torn-t check, victini counter, koko counter and more.

with those examples and more that i can put like Necrozma i dont see why zard deserves to be tiered. its only niche is solar power weather ball under sun which ill admit, is pretty damn strong but its stealth rock weakness and :heatran: Heatran, :volcarona: volcarona and even :volcanion: volcanion arguably doing its job better as a special nuke under sun, it just seems like its there because once upon a time it was genuinely good.
 
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query:

are rankings based mostly around tournament play? Or is there some allocation based on the overall metagame?

obviously metagame trends cause some Pokémon to immediately become more threatening!

the reason I ask is for a few reasons, some specific examples:

- clearly :blacephalon: is a terror to a lot of teams and possibly the biggest “match up mon”, yet it didn’t get pushed up due to not featuring in tournaments until recently.

Is there no weight given to it because of the downtrend in hydreigon and Tyranitar as ghost resists (amongst other relevant metagame trends, such as scarf blacephalon performance against hail, specs blacephalon performance against almost every team, the downtrend of rain, the increase in soft checks to Kyurem, physically defensive fini being the main set, etc)?

This downtrend of blacephalon checks preceded the tournaments obviously, but the decision makers didn’t give it any weight?

- on the flip side, looks like :garchomp: is controversial, however it is consistently good against most threats that ebb and flow, for example it offers valuable resists to the up trending victini and blacephalon.

An anecdote example of how it can perform against trending threats in unique ways is its ability to switch into banded brave bird from zapdos-galar and force it out, or to take double rough skin if it is scarfed (this is great when paired with a regenerator).

Is there not enough weight allocated to a Pokémon’s general utility and workability?



:scizor: may I also ask what makes Scizor a full A rank Pokémon? This is a surprising one for sure, as it is possibly the easiest lele/Kyurem check to chip into KO range!

It also doesn’t have as much offensive pressure as it had in previous generations, nor does it have a way to punish miscellaneous things outside of knock off.
 
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Two main, quick questions:

1) What caused Gastrodon's rise? Like i know its good, especially as a water immunity and rain check on balance and trick counter on stall but is there anything in particular that made it rise?
2) Was their any discussion about Aegislash?

also rip Arctovish, never shall he be able to see his brother in Ubers, even for a brief moment.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
What caused Gastrodon's rise? Like i know its good, especially as a water immunity and rain check on balance and trick counter on stall but is there anything in particular that made it rise?
Gastrodon can serve as a check to a plethora of common used Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Magnezone, Heatran, and Freeze-Dry-less Arctozolt. It can fit well on bulkier teams and has longevity in forme of Recover. Furthermore it can act great as a defensive Pokemon with Scald and Earthquake / Earth Power, which is good coverage by itself and Toxic rounds this set up well. It can also check Giga Drain-less Volcarona, when it decides to run coverage over Safeguard such as Psychic. Storm Drain sets can also check Volcanion pretty well, whereas Sticky Hold can act like a Knock Off absorber, since Knock off is the most common move currently being on Weavile, Landorus-T, Tapu Fini, Tornadus-T, and Zeraora. So its a great pivot to those Pokemon. Gastrodons typing is very valuable with two great abilities, great coverage and longevity in forme of Recover, so it saw a rise.
 
Gastrodon can serve as a check to a plethora of common used Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Magnezone, Heatran, and Freeze-Dry-less Arctozolt. It can fit well on bulkier teams and has longevity in forme of Recover. Furthermore it can act great as a defensive Pokemon with Scald and Earthquake / Earth Power, which is good coverage by itself and Toxic rounds this set up well. It can also check Giga Drain-less Volcarona, when it decides to run coverage over Safeguard such as Psychic. Storm Drain sets can also check Volcanion pretty well, whereas Sticky Hold can act like a Knock Off absorber, since Knock off is the most common move currently being on Weavile, Landorus-T, Tapu Fini, Tornadus-T, and Zeraora. So its a great pivot to those Pokemon. Gastrodons typing is very valuable with two great abilities, great coverage and longevity in forme of Recover, so it saw a rise.
I completely forgot that sticky hold also negated the boost to Knock off as well, yeah I can see the rise now thanks for explaining it.

Also wanna add on one more question that I forgot to add,
What is it about Body Press + colbur slowbro that helped it rise? The OG Post mostly mentions its usefulness as a FS pivot that can tank Physical hits
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
What is it about Body Press + colbur slowbro that helped it rise?

Can check Weavile, but also Bisharp and Body Press OHKOes them as they both get hit 4x super effectively. That set saw usage the past weeks. And Slowbro can also check the likes of Landorus-T, Urshifu-R, Dragonite, and Melmetal, which is great currently. With max Hp and max defense its able to stomach even a +2 Knock Off by Weavile / Bisharp with Colbur Berry and retaliates back with Body Press, so Colbur-Press Slowbro makes for a great tool and lure.

I dont know about Aegislash, if that got discussed but pretty sure a team of the OU VR can help you answering that question. Hope my answers to Gastrodon and Slowbro helped :)
 

ausma

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Why is Avalugg listed as being ranked at C, yet is shown in the OP at C-? Which one is correct?
It’s C, I just put it in C- by accident whoops

2) Was their any discussion about Aegislash?
I was the main advocate of an Aegislash rise and I did put it up for discussion, but it was unanimously voted by the other council members to be kept in B. You can ask anybody else in the VR council for their stance if you’re interested in their reasoning.
 

Ruft

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I completely forgot that sticky hold also negated the boost to Knock off as well, yeah I can see the rise now thanks for explaining it.
Knock Off does full damage against Sticky Hold users actually. If you're gonna run Sticky Hold on Gastrodon, I'd say the main reason should be its ability to switch into and block Trick from users like Tapu Fini, Clefable, and Blacephalon, which could be problematic for more defensively oriented teams otherwise.
 
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