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is a fantastic Pokemon with a potent offensive presence, but it is not S-. We just rose it to A+ and even that was not unanimous. The best Kyurem sets are very support reliant, oftentimes requiring reliable hazard control and some assistance when it comes to finding openings against ideal opposing Pokemon. Yes, Kyurem is strong and has stupidly good natural bulk, but S- is a territory for Pokemon that approach staple status in the metagame on certain archetypes, define the tier to an extent, and find their way into the conversation to be integrated on to many, many teams. Kyurem is not that at all. Kyurem is a strong Pokemon that is a pain in the ass to handle when you go down your teambuilding checklist, which is a testament to a great offensive presence and good set mix. But despite this, there are many limitations to it, causing it to only work on a handful of structures, and it is nowhere near as viable as the top 3-5 Pokemon in the tier because of this.
Just because something is receiving support for a suspect or ban does not make it the most viable Pokemon in the metagame or even particularly close. There is not a direct correlation here always; for the boomers out there, you may recall when Deoxys-D got banned despite falling to UU via usage and barely being in the A ranks due to uneven usage during generation 5!
is a fantastic Pokemon with a potent offensive presence, but it is not S-. We just rose it to A+ and even that was not unanimous. The best Kyurem sets are very support reliant, oftentimes requiring reliable hazard control and some assistance when it comes to finding openings against ideal opposing Pokemon. Yes, Kyurem is strong and has stupidly good natural bulk, but S- is a territory for Pokemon that approach staple status in the metagame on certain archetypes, define the tier to an extent, and find their way into the conversation to be integrated on to many, many teams. Kyurem is not that at all. Kyurem is a strong Pokemon that is a pain in the ass to handle when you go down your teambuilding checklist, which is a testament to a great offensive presence and good set mix. But despite this, there are many limitations to it, causing it to only work on a handful of structures, and it is nowhere near as viable as the top 3-5 Pokemon in the tier because of this.
Just because something is receiving support for a suspect or ban does not make it the most viable Pokemon in the metagame or even particularly close. There is not a direct correlation here always; for the boomers out there, you may recall when Deoxys-D got banned despite falling to UU via usage and barely being in the A ranks due to uneven usage during generation 5!
You missed the entire point of the post. Pokemon can be suspect worthy without being S Tier.
For example:
Kyurem is uber powerful, but its not better than Lando-T and Dragapult. Why?
Splashability. Lando-T and Dragapult can be put on pretty much any team and thrive.
Need a special attacker to glue your team together? Dragapult is an easy choice because of Ghosts lack of resistances making it really hard to switch into, but not busted. However Pult can just be slapped into a team and do work because of that great offensive typing, immunity to fighting and normal to be able to switch in on CC's, and can switch in on Electric, Fire, Water, and Grass moves in some scenarios due to the dragon typing.
Need a stealth rocker, defogger, band user, scarf user, swords dance user, pivot, suicide lead, or just a damn electric and ground immunity, Lando-T can do all of that. Ground/Flying is one of the best typings in the game, Intimidate is such a good ability, and Lando can fit so many roles its bonkers. Not a single one of those sets are broken, but all of them can be viable is some way shape or form.
Kyurem however is an ice type. Ice is the worst defensive typing in the game. It has an okay 95 speed tier, but can hit like no other. Kyurem is amazing, but it only really does 2 things. Wallbreak, or SubRoost PP Stall. It cant pivot, no hazards, cant just click the same move over and over like Pult, but in the right scenario can 6-0 a whole team with the right switch in and team supporting it. Its definitely suspect worthy, but not actually more viable than Lando and Pult.
You missed the entire point of the post. Pokemon can be suspect worthy without being S Tier.
For example:
Kyurem is uber powerful, but its not better than Lando-T and Dragapult. Why?
Splashability. Lando-T and Dragapult can be put on pretty much any team and thrive.
Need a special attacker to glue your team together? Dragapult is an easy choice because of Ghosts lack of resistances making it really hard to switch into, but not busted. However Pult can just be slapped into a team and do work because of that great offensive typing, immunity to fighting and normal to be able to switch in on CC's, and can switch in on Electric, Fire, Water, and Grass moves in some scenarios due to the dragon typing.
Need a stealth rocker, defogger, band user, scarf user, swords dance user, pivot, suicide lead, or just a damn electric and ground immunity, Lando-T can do all of that. Ground/Flying is one of the best typings in the game, Intimidate is such a good ability, and Lando can fit so many roles its bonkers. Not a single one of those sets are broken, but all of them can be viable is some way shape or form.
Kyurem however is an ice type. Ice is the worst defensive typing in the game. It has an okay 95 speed tier, but can hit like no other. Kyurem is amazing, but it only really does 2 things. Wallbreak, or SubRoost PP Stall. It cant pivot, no hazards, cant just click the same move over and over like Pult, but in the right scenario can 6-0 a whole team with the right switch in and team supporting it. Its definitely suspect worthy, but not actually more viable than Lando and Pult.
I 100% am down for suspecting but I oppose a rise to S- or the likes. As said before, a team needs to be built around him. I'm not sure if this is the place to discuss this, however, but I simply think it is an unhealthy pokemon. I really dislike the guesswork that goes into it, playing "What set is it!" is not competitive and not fun. I also HATE FREEZE DRY SO MUCH OH MY GOD, but that's my own bias. On top of that, it is a complete drag for teambuilding. It's checks aren't numerous and you really cannot build teams certain ways simply because it exists and can 6-0 you with ease. Regardless, I would absolutely support a suspect of this guy. I've always despised it. *coughjustbanfreezedrycough*
Agree
to C+ to B- to C to B+
Disagree
to UR, it still is run in stalls rising falling rising and friends falling
Disagree. Swampert isn’t bad. However, it ain’t good either. It’s niche is becoming more specific, and I only really ever see it on Grass spam, where it’s just alright. It is just the lack of longevity murders it to the point where I can’t really call it B.
A+
DISAGREE. Scizor is definitely not A+. It doesn’t really check a whole lot to really be considered a staple on much, and it doesn’t check such things especially well, and it hates shit like Weavile. Also, Scizor feels pretty passive at times considering that you are always using Roost. Sure, you have the tools to force progress, but it is hard to really do it when you are in Roost range constantly. It also doesn’t like hazards, and it’s pretty easy to just Knock Off it’s Heavy-Duty Boots. Overall, A+ is just a major over exaggeration of Scizor.
For me, one of the things I like about pert is the role compression, as it functions as both a stealth rock setter and a defensive pivot, while also serving as a very good check against heatran. It is held back by a lack of recovery, which is why I wouldn't put it higher than B.
As for scizor, I'd have to disagree that scizor hates Weavile. The offensive scizor set can ohko Weavile with bullet punch. 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 306-362 (108.8 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO I also disagree that scizor is particularly vulnerable to hazards and I don't run boots on it.
The highest-ranked (read: pure. the other two typical abusers are usable off the archetype.) Trick Room abuser is currently Marowak-Alola at C. In my opinion, as a pure TR abuser, Dhelmise is the second best, behind Marowak-A, and absolutely usable. In general, it’s the third best, since Melmetal is also a TR staple, just not a pure abuser. Yes, it’s better than Crawdaunt on Trick Room and deserves to be ranked, at the very least. It’s a good breaker and a great cleaner.
I peaked #155 on OU ladder with Dhelmise Trick Room, so I at least know the matchups for, typical counterplay to, and most importantly the power of Dhelmise at a decently high level (keyword decently. not good, just decent).
Why?
1. Typing
Dhelmise’s typing allows Trick Room teams to OFFENSIVELY check Urshifu, even with Trick Room down.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise on a critical hit: 138-162 (40.2 - 47.2%) -- approx. 3HKO
This is important. Dhelmise can switch into Urshifu safely and apply immense offensive pressure even with Trick Room down. It can come in on an Aqua Jet in Trick Room to protect Marowak, it can come in on a Shifu revenging Melmetal or Marowak, and incidentally, it easily switches into Tapu Fini. With rocks up, Dhelmise can only switch in once, but double Healing Wish, which is the usual teamcomp, can help with Dhelmise’s “longevity”. Since Trick Room is so fast-paced, it’s really a non-issue if Dhelmise only gets in on Urshifu once; it claims a KO in return even with Trick Room down.
Here’s the difference between a Dhelmise comp and a Crawdaunt comp.
All three of these abusers are threatened HARD by Urshifu. Marowak can be revenged even in TR. Shifu teams with good prediction and pivoting will be able to dismantle the core easily.
Let’s assume you add Slowbro to patch up the Shifu weakness (note: Slowbro can’t afford Rocky Helmet and would much prefer Kasib or Colbur Berry as a setter).
Slowbro sets TR and Teleports out to any 3 of the abusers. Now what?
Only one of the abusers, which is Choice Banded (and prediction-reliant) Melmetal with a Thunder Punch can kill Urshifu from full. Life Orb Melmetal, a much more consistent set, has a rather low chance to knock it out and is usually Trick Room’s Knock Off absorber (Weavile, Kartana.) In other words, you won’t be able to kill an Urshifu from full (which it typically is; Trick Room doesn’t run hazards, and Shifu switching straight in is dubious at best) without attempting to click an obvious Thunder Punch and subjecting yourself to an endless prediction chain.
Using the other two abusers to attempt to kill Urshifu is basically a sack.
Here’s a Dhelmise comp:
An Urshifu attempting to RK Marowak or Melmetal can’t try it without Dhelmise switching in, threatening to OHKO it, and getting free and immense chip on a switchin; even a kill if the opponent has no options.
The issue with the Craw+Slowbro core is its weakness to the common core of UrshiPult; the two easily lock into a U-turn loop, or, at the very least, force you to play defensively. On Trick Room.
Dhelmise+Porygon2, on the other hand, has a finite amount of time to hardswitch, and, with correct play, can get:
-Trick Room restored
-Dhelmise in on a Choice-locked Urshifu
Both of these outcomes are fairly simple to come by and allow aggressive play instead of staying on the back foot with Slowbro and letting your opponent walk all over you.
2. Dhelmise has immediate power and better synergy with Marowak-Alola, as well as a better speed tier for its job.
This part is fairly simple. Anything Crawdaunt Knocks Off can no longer be Poltergeisted by Marowak-Alola.
In regards to immediate power, Choice Band Dhelmise comes out swinging and usually has 3 turns to wreak havoc before Trick Room needs to be reset. (Yes, Choice Band, I’ll explain soon.)
Crawdaunt, on the other hand, needs to use Swords Dance to break, giving it only two turns. It does the exact same thing Marowak-A does, but with no coverage, and actually inhibits Marowak with its main STAB. It‘s, in effect, redundant, and the only thing it brings to the table is brute force with no defensive utility.
Here are some important things Dhelmise does with its slower speedtier (and other, unrelated cool things):
-Speedties standard Ferrothorn
-Doesn’t care about Slowtwins underspeeding
-Underspeeds standard Slowking-Galar
-Underspeeds Amoonguss
-Brutally murders Cosmic Power Mew
-Better bulk than Crawdaunt, 70/100/90 to Crawdaunt’s 63/85/55
-Handles Tyranitar
Let me reiterate that Dhelmise deserves to be ranked solely for a Trick Room niche. Crawdaunt deserves a higher rank because it’s usable off TR. I’m simply saying that overall, Dhelmise is better on specifically Trick Room and is, in my opinion, much better on the archetype.
Finally, my boldest claim.
3. Dhelmise can feasibly OHKO/2HKO every single Pokémon in the OU tier.
I said feasibly because it’s true. Dhelmise can put a massive dent in most defensive Pokémon and wipes out a plethora of offensive ones with only a Choice Band; throughout my adventures with it, its performance has been surprisingly impressive. I’ve seen it carry out almost every calc on this list:
Barraskewda
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barraskewda: 978-1152 (371.8 - 438%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bisharp (can only switch once into poltergeist, decimated by EQ)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 148-174 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blacephalon (LMFAO)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 270-318 (109.3 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blissey (needs to be played around, but two stabs 2hko)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 589-694 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 393-463 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Buzzwole (popular 3a roost is easily 2hkod)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 225-265 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Clefable (all 3 stabs wipe)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 382-450 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 285-336 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 262-309 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Corviknight
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 222-262 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragapult (ghost stab isn't even a question, but even Power Whip 2hkos)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 204-241 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dragonite (first hit)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 147-173 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Dragonite (2nd hit)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Dragonite: 294-346 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ferrothorn (rareish max def)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 178-210 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Garchomp
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 339-400 (94.9 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Heatran (dhelmise has eq for when it needs)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 283-334 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hippowdon
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 259-306 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 564-666 (134.2 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kartana (dangerous but I've never actually seen one live)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 237-279 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Kyurem
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 325-384 (80.2 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 474-558 (117 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 217-256 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 237-279 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Magnezone (dhelmise has eq, not like it needs to click it unless Marowak-Alola is down and Zone is trying to set up. Iron Defense Magnezone can't switch in or do anything back though)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 214-253 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Melmetal (there are many sets, but spdef ones with next to no HP, similar-ish to this one, can't handle Poltergeist. None of them can handle EQ)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 219-258 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Mew (DIE, DEMON!)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 396-468 (98 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 296-350 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +3 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +4 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(+4, +4!) 0 SpA Mew Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Dhelmise: 211-250 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ninetales-Alola (all 3 stabs easily take it out.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales-Alola: 378-445 (108 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pelipper
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 214-253 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pelipper: 297-349 (113.7 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rillaboom
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 324-382 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Scizor
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor: 297-349 (86.5 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Slowbro
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 404-476 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Slowking-Galar
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 716-846 (181.7 - 214.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 436-514 (110.6 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Fini (don't need to mention Power Whip.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 204-241 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tapu Koko
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 340-402 (120.9 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Lele (all 3 stabs KO.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 412-486 (146.6 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tornadus-Therian
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 357-421 (98.6 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Toxapex (threat, must be played around, still 2hkod)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 160-189 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tyranitar (anchor shot also kills)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 596-704 (147.5 - 174.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (YOU CHECK THIS! power whip needs no mention)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 297-349 (87 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise on a critical hit: 138-162 (40.2 - 47.2%) -- approx. 3HKO
Victini (also killed by EQ)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 594-702 (174.1 - 205.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Volcarona (even bulky)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Volcarona: 343-405 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Weavile. (Threat, you win 1v1 in TR. Anchor Shot needs no mention)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 462-544 (164.4 - 193.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 126-150 (36.7 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 248-294 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zapdos (polter is non-contact :D)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 270-318 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zeraora
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 378-445 (119.2 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
B- -> B Swampert is and excellent check for heatran. Swampert can switch into heatran, eat a magma storm and either kill it with EQ or escape and chip it for about 35% with flip turn. It also functions as a solid stealth rock setter, and it blocks volt switches from faster pivots like koko and zeroara.
personally have to disagree with a swampert rise. i just find swampert to be a very specific fit for teams that desperately need a check for heatran and rocks, and that's it. otherwise swampert just makes teams more vulnerable because you're using it instead of more solid defensive pokemon (that also have its typing) like tapu fini, toxapex, landorus-t, etc. fini and pex act as a dragapult-shifu-weavile checks (which is amazing considering how dangerous these are) while the former can use different sets to support its team (say trapper or scarf) and be threatening with calm mind, and the latter has knock off, regenerator, reliable recovery and can spread status, so you barely find opportunities to use swampert considering these, and then landorus-t has the same niche as it as a stealth rocker that can retain momentum and check electric-types / heatran, while also packing other stuff like intimidate, knock off, flying typing, etc. overall you don't really find opportunities to use swampert unless you're heavily desperate because there are just better options for its roles. i don't think being a good heatran check is enough to warrant it a rise.
Please stop with Swampert. This thing is one of the worst mons in the tier. If anything it should be dropped even further. The thing is, if your team really does desperately need both a rocker and Tran check it's probably garbage. Swampert reminds me a lot of Toad when Vish was around. Complete shit in every game because of its stats, lack of recovery and passivnes but the difference is that you needed to play toad while right now you can use more than 10 rockers that actually help you progress the game in a way.
jk I totally agree w/ dhelmise. Mandibuzz isn't used much anymore and that's really the only stop unless you run stone edge. I would also say that Golurk should also be ranked for very similar merits on trick room.
in other news, get Regi to rumble, because I got a fat nom coming for a few 200-statted golems
qwertyman888 no theft implied, just joking around! Nothing in Pokemon is original anyways
jk I totally agree w/ dhelmise. Mandibuzz isn't used much anymore and that's really the only stop unless you run stone edge. I would also say that Golurk should also be ranked for very similar merits on trick room.
in other news, get Regi to rumble, because I got a fat nom coming for a few 200-statted golems
i actually didn’t get the team from there, it was given to me by someone else on Showdown. Probably hence the sd awak. I also put EQ on dhelm and Colbur/Kasib berry on Cress it’s helpful (actually, looking at it, a looot of the sets are different. It got watered down, maybe? I don’t even know… but I like the team and if it did originate from you uh ty for the elo)
I also love golurk but slowtwins and ferro hurt so much
Here are a few noms ill make. -> A+
This mon is a demon. This mon has almost no safe you good switch in.
Lets see.
people do be saying this the lele switch in.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 163-192 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery oh whats that a 2hko.
people might say its a fb so it will miss. So fine, lets say,
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor in Psychic Terrain: 119-141 (34.6 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor in Psychic Terrain: 126-149 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
hmm not bad. but what if it gets chipped by lets say something, like 20 percent.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor in Psychic Terrain: 131-154 (38.1 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
oh whats that. a neat 2hko. Its a good check, but not too consistent, conclusion scizor is the closest safe swtich in in ou.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight in Psychic Terrain: 162-191 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
what will bring corv into this range idk some lando t knock.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 172-203 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
even max spdef does not appreciate it.
vic does not switch in unless max spdef so i am not putting it in. So far these two mans are the only defensive mons who can resist both stabs and not weak to fb.
It has p good bulk too.
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 190-225 (67.6 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
dont switch it in. but could be helpful
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
they dont ko while you have a chance to ohko woth psyshock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 214-253 (76.1 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
again dont switch in but can be useful
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 105-124 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
you can switch in if you need to.
252 SpA Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 194-230 (69 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if it gets knocked by spedef pex ig
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 120-142 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
you can stay in a fb to weaken it for a team mate.
Niche Switch ins like jirachi are not too useful in the metagame but its a good switch in.
-> A
This mon is fire, literally.
Specs for fat and scarf for offense and boots along the way.
Unlike lele this mon has good and consistent switch ins cuz this boi got null coverage. Its checks are not too popular but as time goes they might become good. (If you dont know i am talking about hydrei and ttar)
Ghost is truly a tough stab to switch in and it keeps pult at top. But pult aint got that nuke power witch blace brings. But being weak to rocks is ouch. Giving kart a tough time as the best ub.
-> b-
This mon can outright take away games and its got decent stabs and neat coverage. Albeit it has tough time breaking through steels, but its bulk on the spdef side is insane even without is insane for some offensively based teams. Meteor beam is a nuke and speeding up without giving up on special attack too much is nice.
Now...........
-> C- or C
This mon recently fell to ur. And In my humble opinion it did not need to drop to ur.
Lets look at its competition in ou as a psychic type.
Ou has 5 psychic types.
1- Support->
2- pivot -> , latter can be offensive. and
1-offensive->
What does zam possibly have over the two offensive psy in ou.(Vic does not even run psy stab sometimes)
1) Magic Guard.
2)Speed.
3)Not limited to boots/specs/scarf. Can run lo effectively.
4)Can NP and break unlike lele who needs cm as a set up move.
5)Expanding force.
6)Trick over lele. Trick on vic aint good when you wearing them timbs.
Let me elaborate with some replays.
btw way i hit
i might have peaked higher but i forgot to save it. oh well.
The set.
Alakazam @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball/Nasty Plot
- Trick
->C-
This mon does not really have rock type competition in ou. TTar is the only rock type in ou rn.
What does it have over ground types of ou rn:
1) Immense power.
2) Insane coverage.
3) Not quad weak to ice shard.
4) Immense physical bulk in tandem with solid rock.
5)Decent offensive stabs.
6)Decently checks the follwoing:
-Volc
-Koko
-Zera(possibly hard counter)
-Heatran on magma.
and much more...
It loves rilla is kinda falling so that spams eqs willy nilly. And loves spdef lando increasing and buzz falling.
I'll use a few replays to analyse what zam and rhyp can accomplish.
This mon loves that tapu lele is rising as a mon. So that it can just tack along to abuse it. The key idea of scarf zam is that it can out speed much of the tier and still do nice dmg with expanding force.
Scarf zam revenges an omastar after a smash and cleans up +2 steela. This shows how strong expanding force even without a boost. Its ability to revenge stuff without giving up on power is kind huge.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1440219004 (nothing but checks)
Late game zam forced my opponent into p uncomfortable position. Its decent special bulk shone too. The combination of tapu lele and blaceph removes ttar and rhyp removes ferro for zam's delight.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1440713214 (rhyps bulk shines thorugh vs number 9 on ladder.)
Even i was surprised. This mon has survived so much.
I actually lost a replay where rhyp literally saved the game by surviving +2 lucha cc.
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 406-478 (93.5 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
At the end of the day zam still a niche mon but a solid one. Rhyp is the best offensive defensive mon imo. Loves that mandi is dropping too.
Once weav slows down, we can see psyspam zam be better. But as of now c-/c is where it belongs.
I tried krook but i was not able to find the vibe. I'll get it soon tho.
I am a p mediocre player if i say so myself, so please try zam its not bad.
The highest-ranked (read: pure. the other two typical abusers are usable off the archetype.) Trick Room abuser is currently Marowak-Alola at C. In my opinion, as a pure TR abuser, Dhelmise is the second best, behind Marowak-A, and absolutely usable. In general, it’s the third best, since Melmetal is also a TR staple, just not a pure abuser. Yes, it’s better than Crawdaunt on Trick Room and deserves to be ranked, at the very least. It’s a good breaker and a great cleaner.
I peaked #155 on OU ladder with Dhelmise Trick Room, so I at least know the matchups for, typical counterplay to, and most importantly the power of Dhelmise at a decently high level (keyword decently. not good, just decent).
Why?
1. Typing
Dhelmise’s typing allows Trick Room teams to OFFENSIVELY check Urshifu, even with Trick Room down.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise on a critical hit: 138-162 (40.2 - 47.2%) -- approx. 3HKO
This is important. Dhelmise can switch into Urshifu safely and apply immense offensive pressure even with Trick Room down. It can come in on an Aqua Jet in Trick Room to protect Marowak, it can come in on a Shifu revenging Melmetal or Marowak, and incidentally, it easily switches into Tapu Fini. With rocks up, Dhelmise can only switch in once, but double Healing Wish, which is the usual teamcomp, can help with Dhelmise’s “longevity”. Since Trick Room is so fast-paced, it’s really a non-issue if Dhelmise only gets in on Urshifu once; it claims a KO in return even with Trick Room down.
Here’s the difference between a Dhelmise comp and a Crawdaunt comp.
All three of these abusers are threatened HARD by Urshifu. Marowak can be revenged even in TR. Shifu teams with good prediction and pivoting will be able to dismantle the core easily.
Let’s assume you add Slowbro to patch up the Shifu weakness (note: Slowbro can’t afford Rocky Helmet and would much prefer Kasib or Colbur Berry as a setter).
Slowbro sets TR and Teleports out to any 3 of the abusers. Now what?
Only one of the abusers, which is Choice Banded (and prediction-reliant) Melmetal with a Thunder Punch can kill Urshifu from full. Life Orb Melmetal, a much more consistent set, has a rather low chance to knock it out and is usually Trick Room’s Knock Off absorber (Weavile, Kartana.) In other words, you won’t be able to kill an Urshifu from full (which it typically is; Trick Room doesn’t run hazards, and Shifu switching straight in is dubious at best) without attempting to click an obvious Thunder Punch and subjecting yourself to an endless prediction chain.
Using the other two abusers to attempt to kill Urshifu is basically a sack.
Here’s a Dhelmise comp:
An Urshifu attempting to RK Marowak or Melmetal can’t try it without Dhelmise switching in, threatening to OHKO it, and getting free and immense chip on a switchin; even a kill if the opponent has no options.
The issue with the Craw+Slowbro core is its weakness to the common core of UrshiPult; the two easily lock into a U-turn loop, or, at the very least, force you to play defensively. On Trick Room.
Dhelmise+Porygon2, on the other hand, has a finite amount of time to hardswitch, and, with correct play, can get:
-Trick Room restored
-Dhelmise in on a Choice-locked Urshifu
Both of these outcomes are fairly simple to come by and allow aggressive play instead of staying on the back foot with Slowbro and letting your opponent walk all over you.
2. Dhelmise has immediate power and better synergy with Marowak-Alola, as well as a better speed tier for its job.
This part is fairly simple. Anything Crawdaunt Knocks Off can no longer be Poltergeisted by Marowak-Alola.
In regards to immediate power, Choice Band Dhelmise comes out swinging and usually has 3 turns to wreak havoc before Trick Room needs to be reset. (Yes, Choice Band, I’ll explain soon.)
Crawdaunt, on the other hand, needs to use Swords Dance to break, giving it only two turns. It does the exact same thing Marowak-A does, but with no coverage, and actually inhibits Marowak with its main STAB. It‘s, in effect, redundant, and the only thing it brings to the table is brute force with no defensive utility.
Here are some important things Dhelmise does with its slower speedtier (and other, unrelated cool things):
-Speedties standard Ferrothorn
-Doesn’t care about Slowtwins underspeeding
-Underspeeds standard Slowking-Galar
-Underspeeds Amoonguss
-Brutally murders Cosmic Power Mew
-Better bulk than Crawdaunt, 70/100/90 to Crawdaunt’s 63/85/55
-Handles Tyranitar
Let me reiterate that Dhelmise deserves to be ranked solely for a Trick Room niche. Crawdaunt deserves a higher rank because it’s usable off TR. I’m simply saying that overall, Dhelmise is better on specifically Trick Room and is, in my opinion, much better on the archetype.
Finally, my boldest claim.
3. Dhelmise can feasibly OHKO/2HKO every single Pokémon in the OU tier.
I said feasibly because it’s true. Dhelmise can put a massive dent in most defensive Pokémon and wipes out a plethora of offensive ones with only a Choice Band; throughout my adventures with it, its performance has been surprisingly impressive. I’ve seen it carry out almost every calc on this list:
Barraskewda
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barraskewda: 978-1152 (371.8 - 438%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bisharp (can only switch once into poltergeist, decimated by EQ)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 148-174 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blacephalon (LMFAO)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 270-318 (109.3 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blissey (needs to be played around, but two stabs 2hko)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 589-694 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 393-463 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Buzzwole (popular 3a roost is easily 2hkod)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 225-265 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Clefable (all 3 stabs wipe)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 382-450 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 285-336 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 262-309 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Corviknight
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 222-262 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragapult (ghost stab isn't even a question, but even Power Whip 2hkos)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 204-241 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dragonite (first hit)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 147-173 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Dragonite (2nd hit)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Dragonite: 294-346 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ferrothorn (rareish max def)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 178-210 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Garchomp
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 339-400 (94.9 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Heatran (dhelmise has eq for when it needs)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 283-334 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hippowdon
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 259-306 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 564-666 (134.2 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kartana (dangerous but I've never actually seen one live)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 237-279 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Kyurem
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 325-384 (80.2 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 474-558 (117 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 217-256 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 237-279 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Magnezone (dhelmise has eq, not like it needs to click it unless Marowak-Alola is down and Zone is trying to set up. Iron Defense Magnezone can't switch in or do anything back though)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 214-253 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Melmetal (there are many sets, but spdef ones with next to no HP, similar-ish to this one, can't handle Poltergeist. None of them can handle EQ)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 219-258 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Mew (DIE, DEMON!)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 396-468 (98 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 296-350 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +3 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +4 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(+4, +4!) 0 SpA Mew Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Dhelmise: 211-250 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ninetales-Alola (all 3 stabs easily take it out.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales-Alola: 378-445 (108 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pelipper
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 214-253 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pelipper: 297-349 (113.7 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rillaboom
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 324-382 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Scizor
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor: 297-349 (86.5 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Slowbro
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 404-476 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Slowking-Galar
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 716-846 (181.7 - 214.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 436-514 (110.6 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Fini (don't need to mention Power Whip.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 204-241 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tapu Koko
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 340-402 (120.9 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Lele (all 3 stabs KO.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 412-486 (146.6 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tornadus-Therian
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 357-421 (98.6 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Toxapex (threat, must be played around, still 2hkod)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 160-189 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tyranitar (anchor shot also kills)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 596-704 (147.5 - 174.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (YOU CHECK THIS! power whip needs no mention)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 297-349 (87 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise on a critical hit: 138-162 (40.2 - 47.2%) -- approx. 3HKO
Victini (also killed by EQ)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 594-702 (174.1 - 205.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Volcarona (even bulky)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Volcarona: 343-405 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Weavile. (Threat, you win 1v1 in TR. Anchor Shot needs no mention)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 462-544 (164.4 - 193.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 126-150 (36.7 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 248-294 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zapdos (polter is non-contact :D)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 270-318 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zeraora
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 378-445 (119.2 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I tried some dhelmise since you posted and its not been bad. But its almost pushing me to say it should not be ranked. But as of now i believe it can be ranked. Its just been "underwhelming".
Let me eloborate.
1)Does it have power?
Ans)Yes. Often times 2hko in in tandem with band.
2)Typing?
Ans)The ghost ype is a god send. Grass might be useful for something like ttar and fini.
3)Defensive stats?
Ans)Borderline good. I wont rate it high but for its supposed to do. Its just good.
4)Team synergy?
Ans) Here is where I kinda thought."Is dhelm required?"
Let you typical setters be:
And the abusers:
What does dhelm provide?
Ground resistance(Already covered by cress)
Grass resist(Provided by the other two)
Water resist (Would seem nice but you can run max defense cress to kinda check but this its saving grace)
Second ghost(Saving grace)
Fighting Immune(Covered by awak, hatt and cress)
It does answer shifu, i'll give you that.
Also it gets just outclassed as an abuser. I would rather have an extra setter which can be offensive unlike cress and porygon.
In conclusion, it can be ranked.
But is it necessary? unsure.
Are you talking Hatterene as an offensive setter? Yeah, fair. Hatterene is a great self-setting offensive mon if you choose to run it, but I've mostly found that most people expect it on lead rather than Healing Wish and pivot around it Turn 2, which is why I prefer the latter set.
It's not like Dhelmise is mandatory on TR. It's definitely outclassed, but I made the case that it's at the very least better than Craw on the archetype and I stand by that.
to B- Pretty surprising to me that the mon with zero true defensive answers is still stuck in C+. Terrakion has arguably been B- worthy for a while now, but certain things in the current meta make me feel a lot more confident nominating it. First of all, Slowbro is the best it's ever been in the tier Post-Cinderace, and Slowbro being better naturally improves Future Sight Offense, the teamstyle Terrakion most thrives on. We have been seeing the effects of Slowbro's rise in the meta with Conkeldurr having just risen. Plus, Urshifu-R, Terrakion's main competition has been on downwards trend thanks to the hyperinflation of bulky waters and it currently being held back by its middling speed tier. Terrakion doesn't suffer these problems, since it doesn't have any trouble breaking through the likes of Tapu Fini and Toxapex, and 109 speed is much more useful. The amount of excellent cleaners in the metagame to abuse the holes Terrakion will break is also immense (Weavile, Zeraora, Tapu Koko, Dragapult, Tornadus-T, Volcorona, Garchomp, etc.) I wouldn't push for much higher since many of the cleaners I just listed can revenge kill Terrakion(lol), and it can be unreliable due to having to predict as well as Stone Edge's poor accuracy.
Are you talking Hatterene as an offensive setter? Yeah, fair. Hatterene is a great self-setting offensive mon if you choose to run it, but I've mostly found that most people expect it on lead rather than Healing Wish and pivot around it Turn 2, which is why I prefer the latter set.
It's not like Dhelmise is mandatory on TR. It's definitely outclassed, but I made the case that it's at the very least better than Craw on the archetype and I stand by that.
The highest-ranked (read: pure. the other two typical abusers are usable off the archetype.) Trick Room abuser is currently Marowak-Alola at C. In my opinion, as a pure TR abuser, Dhelmise is the second best, behind Marowak-A, and absolutely usable. In general, it’s the third best, since Melmetal is also a TR staple, just not a pure abuser. Yes, it’s better than Crawdaunt on Trick Room and deserves to be ranked, at the very least. It’s a good breaker and a great cleaner.
I peaked #155 on OU ladder with Dhelmise Trick Room, so I at least know the matchups for, typical counterplay to, and most importantly the power of Dhelmise at a decently high level (keyword decently. not good, just decent).
Why?
1. Typing
Dhelmise’s typing allows Trick Room teams to OFFENSIVELY check Urshifu, even with Trick Room down.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise on a critical hit: 138-162 (40.2 - 47.2%) -- approx. 3HKO
This is important. Dhelmise can switch into Urshifu safely and apply immense offensive pressure even with Trick Room down. It can come in on an Aqua Jet in Trick Room to protect Marowak, it can come in on a Shifu revenging Melmetal or Marowak, and incidentally, it easily switches into Tapu Fini. With rocks up, Dhelmise can only switch in once, but double Healing Wish, which is the usual teamcomp, can help with Dhelmise’s “longevity”. Since Trick Room is so fast-paced, it’s really a non-issue if Dhelmise only gets in on Urshifu once; it claims a KO in return even with Trick Room down.
Here’s the difference between a Dhelmise comp and a Crawdaunt comp.
All three of these abusers are threatened HARD by Urshifu. Marowak can be revenged even in TR. Shifu teams with good prediction and pivoting will be able to dismantle the core easily.
Let’s assume you add Slowbro to patch up the Shifu weakness (note: Slowbro can’t afford Rocky Helmet and would much prefer Kasib or Colbur Berry as a setter).
Slowbro sets TR and Teleports out to any 3 of the abusers. Now what?
Only one of the abusers, which is Choice Banded (and prediction-reliant) Melmetal with a Thunder Punch can kill Urshifu from full. Life Orb Melmetal, a much more consistent set, has a rather low chance to knock it out and is usually Trick Room’s Knock Off absorber (Weavile, Kartana.) In other words, you won’t be able to kill an Urshifu from full (which it typically is; Trick Room doesn’t run hazards, and Shifu switching straight in is dubious at best) without attempting to click an obvious Thunder Punch and subjecting yourself to an endless prediction chain.
Using the other two abusers to attempt to kill Urshifu is basically a sack.
Here’s a Dhelmise comp:
An Urshifu attempting to RK Marowak or Melmetal can’t try it without Dhelmise switching in, threatening to OHKO it, and getting free and immense chip on a switchin; even a kill if the opponent has no options.
The issue with the Craw+Slowbro core is its weakness to the common core of UrshiPult; the two easily lock into a U-turn loop, or, at the very least, force you to play defensively. On Trick Room.
Dhelmise+Porygon2, on the other hand, has a finite amount of time to hardswitch, and, with correct play, can get:
-Trick Room restored
-Dhelmise in on a Choice-locked Urshifu
Both of these outcomes are fairly simple to come by and allow aggressive play instead of staying on the back foot with Slowbro and letting your opponent walk all over you.
2. Dhelmise has immediate power and better synergy with Marowak-Alola, as well as a better speed tier for its job.
This part is fairly simple. Anything Crawdaunt Knocks Off can no longer be Poltergeisted by Marowak-Alola.
In regards to immediate power, Choice Band Dhelmise comes out swinging and usually has 3 turns to wreak havoc before Trick Room needs to be reset. (Yes, Choice Band, I’ll explain soon.)
Crawdaunt, on the other hand, needs to use Swords Dance to break, giving it only two turns. It does the exact same thing Marowak-A does, but with no coverage, and actually inhibits Marowak with its main STAB. It‘s, in effect, redundant, and the only thing it brings to the table is brute force with no defensive utility.
Here are some important things Dhelmise does with its slower speedtier (and other, unrelated cool things):
-Speedties standard Ferrothorn
-Doesn’t care about Slowtwins underspeeding
-Underspeeds standard Slowking-Galar
-Underspeeds Amoonguss
-Brutally murders Cosmic Power Mew
-Better bulk than Crawdaunt, 70/100/90 to Crawdaunt’s 63/85/55
-Handles Tyranitar
Let me reiterate that Dhelmise deserves to be ranked solely for a Trick Room niche. Crawdaunt deserves a higher rank because it’s usable off TR. I’m simply saying that overall, Dhelmise is better on specifically Trick Room and is, in my opinion, much better on the archetype.
Finally, my boldest claim.
3. Dhelmise can feasibly OHKO/2HKO every single Pokémon in the OU tier.
I said feasibly because it’s true. Dhelmise can put a massive dent in most defensive Pokémon and wipes out a plethora of offensive ones with only a Choice Band; throughout my adventures with it, its performance has been surprisingly impressive. I’ve seen it carry out almost every calc on this list:
Barraskewda
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barraskewda: 978-1152 (371.8 - 438%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bisharp (can only switch once into poltergeist, decimated by EQ)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 148-174 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blacephalon (LMFAO)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 270-318 (109.3 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blissey (needs to be played around, but two stabs 2hko)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 589-694 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 393-463 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Buzzwole (popular 3a roost is easily 2hkod)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 225-265 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Clefable (all 3 stabs wipe)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 382-450 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 285-336 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 262-309 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Corviknight
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 222-262 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragapult (ghost stab isn't even a question, but even Power Whip 2hkos)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 204-241 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dragonite (first hit)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 147-173 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Dragonite (2nd hit)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Dragonite: 294-346 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ferrothorn (rareish max def)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 178-210 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Garchomp
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 339-400 (94.9 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Heatran (dhelmise has eq for when it needs)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 283-334 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hippowdon
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 259-306 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 564-666 (134.2 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kartana (dangerous but I've never actually seen one live)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 237-279 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Kyurem
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 325-384 (80.2 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 474-558 (117 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 217-256 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 237-279 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Magnezone (dhelmise has eq, not like it needs to click it unless Marowak-Alola is down and Zone is trying to set up. Iron Defense Magnezone can't switch in or do anything back though)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Magnezone: 214-253 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Melmetal (there are many sets, but spdef ones with next to no HP, similar-ish to this one, can't handle Poltergeist. None of them can handle EQ)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 219-258 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Mew (DIE, DEMON!)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 396-468 (98 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 296-350 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +3 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. +4 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(+4, +4!) 0 SpA Mew Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Dhelmise: 211-250 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ninetales-Alola (all 3 stabs easily take it out.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales-Alola: 378-445 (108 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pelipper
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 214-253 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pelipper: 297-349 (113.7 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rillaboom
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 324-382 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Scizor
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Scizor: 297-349 (86.5 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Slowbro
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 404-476 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Slowking-Galar
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 716-846 (181.7 - 214.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 436-514 (110.6 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Fini (don't need to mention Power Whip.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 204-241 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tapu Koko
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 340-402 (120.9 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Lele (all 3 stabs KO.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 412-486 (146.6 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tornadus-Therian
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 357-421 (98.6 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Toxapex (threat, must be played around, still 2hkod)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 160-189 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tyranitar (anchor shot also kills)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 596-704 (147.5 - 174.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (YOU CHECK THIS! power whip needs no mention)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 297-349 (87 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise on a critical hit: 138-162 (40.2 - 47.2%) -- approx. 3HKO
Victini (also killed by EQ)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 594-702 (174.1 - 205.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Volcarona (even bulky)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Volcarona: 343-405 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Weavile. (Threat, you win 1v1 in TR. Anchor Shot needs no mention)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 462-544 (164.4 - 193.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 126-150 (36.7 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 248-294 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zapdos (polter is non-contact :D)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 270-318 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zeraora
252+ Atk Choice Band Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 378-445 (119.2 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This replay shows why I disagree with Zam being ranked-it adds literally nothing defensively to a team, and when you then have to pair it with Lele, another mon that doesn't offer much defensively, there are going to be massive holes in your team.
In this replay, Nihilego wipes half a team for free, and then with any normal team the game is over. But because this team is that cripplingly dark-weak, you have to Trick the sweeper to shut it down. And because Zam is that frail, you then have to sac a mon to get it in on order to do that. If Ribombee has Sash like it should do, it gets off a Stun Spore on Nihilego, and then Nihilego is just setup fodder for Mew, and one of the Ice duo or G-Molt smashes you lategame.
These replays are mostly a showcase of people not knowing the sets of lesser-used mons, and I'd argue Scarf Victini does basically everything Zam does in these replays (including Expanding Force access). Half of the draw of Zam is it's supposed to be super-fast, so why does it need a scarf? You can get decent results by slapping a Scarf on basically any Pokemon with Trick and a spammable STAB so long as no-one realises it's scarf. Gengar, Latios and Victini have this niche nailed down in all corners, and I really don't see what Zam offers as a scarfer over any of those, besides Magic Guard, which doesn't really come up on a Pokemon that frail unless you're using Sash or LO, which you're not.
Well written nom though, and your replays do make a good case for a Nihilego raise, Meteor Beam doesn't seem to be an option that is being respected in-game.
A mon I vouch for that has been discussed, should be looked over and possibly put into C- is Dhelmise.
While not some sort of staple metadefining wonder, its' an extremely hard hitting Stallbreaker that has seen sparse usage to counteract slower teams in the past couple of months that are weak to its' three stabs.
I've linked a replay showcasing its' strengths down below. B2W vs Firer
qwertyman888 I've been trying out your TR team and Dhelmise sure is a neat TR sweeper. Having these high-powered STABs, this good bulk, and I definitely agree for having tried the team without it that Urshifu becomes a massive pain instantly.
A mon I vouch for that has been discussed, should be looked over and possibly put into C- is Dhelmise.
While not some sort of staple metadefining wonder, its' an extremely hard hitting Stallbreaker that has seen sparse usage to counteract slower teams in the past couple of months that are weak to its' three stabs.
I've linked a replay showcasing its' strengths down below. B2W vs Firer
Hey, thats me! I do believe that Dhelmise has a niche outside of Trick Room actually simply because it 2hkos the entire OU tier and requires remarkably little prediction compared to most other wallbreakers such as CB Urshifu or Specs Lele and Kyurem. Its barely fast enough to outspeed most relevant walls in OU up to (and including) skarmory with a max speed investment and an adamant nature. The main issue is that you dont want to switch it into any attack that it isnt immune to so youll have to work with pivots and double switches however in my experiences those arent that difficult to get since Dhelmise preys on many defensive mons that get switched in over and over again such as Hippodown or all varaints of the Slow and Glowtins. Its unique typing also allows it to punish a few choice users such as Urshifu, Koko or Kyurem by forcing them to sac a pokemon if they ever kill one of yours with the wrong move.
Its sort of bulky enough to trade 1 for 1 against more offensive teams but its niche surely lies in dismantling balance and quite a few stall teams with proper pivoting support. Main thing that holds it back is its weakness to knock off and the lackluster matchup against most offensive teams. It does get some competition from Golurk as well actually as a faster option for a stab Poltergeist that hits almost as hard and comes without the miss chance due to No Guard as well as offering an additional electric immunity.
B+ to A-: Just by its typing, this thing checks so much of the metagame's best Pokemon, like Landorus-T, Heatran, Corviknight, Tapu Fini, and Urshifu-RS to name some, and its special bulk gives it opportunities to switch in against threats like Dragapult and cripple them with Thunder Wave. Volt Switch also prevents it from being a momentum sink and allows it to fit even on offensive teams, where its ability to remove hazards with Defog and throw out paralysis is highly appreciated by wallbreakers like Blacephalon. It does need to watch out for the Water/Ground types, and the rise of Kyurem and its Water coverage in Freeze-Dry do hurt it a little bit, but this doesn't subtract from Rotom-W being a great and underrated defensive pivot.
B+ to A-: Speaking of Blacephalon, this thing almost always has the potential to be absolutely monstrous. Its abysmal bulk is definitely a hinderance, but if one is able to get it onto the field and play their cards right, it can yield massive results and break holes in the opponent's team for teammates to capitalize on. Just like Rotom-W, it has a fantastic typing that usually lets it take on large swathes of the opposing team, especially compounded by its amazing Special Attack stat boosted by Choice Specs, making it so that even resisted switch-ins are going to take a decent chunk of health. Not to mention its possibility to snowball with Beast Boost and it being able to render Pokemon like Blissey useless if it chooses to Trick its Specs away. Blacephalon does require a bit more team support to bring out its full potential, but the upsides are so staggeringly high that it's absolutely worth it.
Also, why are so many people treating A- to B+ as the threshold for viability? I've seen many posts from people that seem to have the mentality of, in a nutshell, "This Pokemon is in B+/B/B-, therefore it's unviable/not good," and I genuinely don't understand where that mindset stems from, nor do I understand how people are unable to realize that it's a horribly flawed way of thinking.
Wanna make a quick post and say Galarian Zapdos should be in the A ranks.
It feasts on the double Steel cores running around everywhere, has excellent dual STABs, and punishes Lando T with a free attack boost and dissuading Defog. A neutrality to rocks, immunity to Spikes, and access to U-turn let's it do its thing effectively, and it has some decent resistances as well. It can use either Band or Scarf effectively, and BU sets have started popping up on the ladder too.
It's also risen in usage essentially every week in SCL and sports a respectable winrate week over week. I almost want to say that it's taken the place of Urshifu, but I don't think we're there quite yet. Either way, it's much better than all the other stuff in B+ rn.
A- is fine I think but there's an argument for A as well
Just wanted to bring something up on Glastrier, since I forgot to do that in my other post:
Overall I support this mon rising to C+, but no further. It does do well against the current metagame, but it also has a few flaws that I think are worth bringing up.
1. The Melmetal Problem
Glastrier faces big competition from our resident ungodly nutty blob. A fellow slow hulking physical breaker, Melmetal boasts a much stronger STAB, way better defensive typing, and mostly better stats all around. What does Glastrier have over it? Two things, better special bulk (see calcs below) and the ability to setup with Swords Dance. You could argue it has better coverage between it's STAB and High Horsepower, but Double Iron Chonk kills everything anyway, and Melmetal's coverage is plentiful enough. So basically, if you're using a Glastrier set that doesn't involve Swords Dance, chances are Melmetal probably does that set but better.
252 SpA Blacephalon Overheat vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Melmetal: 498-588 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Blacephalon Overheat vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Glastrier: 440-518 (112.2 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (both these spreads are 109 Spe with max Atk Adamant) 2. Entry opportunities
Glastrier is probably best as a lead in a lot of situations (and most replays showcasing it have had it as a lead). However, this doesn't really say a lot about Glastrier's ability as a lead, more about how awkward it is to get in if you don't use it as a lead. Taking 25% from Rocks and being vulnerable to Spikes and TSpikes on top makes it horrific to get in without large amounts of hazard removal, or giving up its item slot to Boots, something it really doesn't want to do as Lefties gives longevity it otherwise lacks, especially if you use Sub. Moreover, it's defensive typing offsets its bulk somewhat, so that while very little in the tier OHKOs it, most of the offensive tier can 2HKO it because of its numerous weaknesses and total lack of resistances. And thanks to its speed, this means to come in on most Pokemon it has to avoid a 2HKO to get an attack off, and if it wants a Swords Dance it has to avoid a 3HKO. This means a lot of Pokemon it would love to abuse can simply wear it down to the point it struggles to get off a boosted attack.
168+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 124-146 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- 82.3% chance to 3HKO/guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 96-114 (24.4 - 29%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage/99% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 118-141 (30.1 - 35.9%) -- 40.7% chance to 3HKO/guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It can of course benefit from pivot support, but then you still run into issues with entry hazards and having to tank a hit to get off an attack. Melmetal, by comparison, is capable of utilising its Rocks resist, Toxic immunity and various other resisted hits to force entry opportunities for itself, which is simply something Glastrier cannot do. Hence it is very reliant on free switch-ins, which is why it is commonly lead with. 3. Chipped=Dead
Glastrier also shares Melmetal's flaw of lack of reliable recovery. Once it is chipped down to low health, it becomes a sac at best without Healing Wish support. However, Glastrier's Rock weakness amplifies this problem further, as it becomes unable to take even light hits with rocks up at around 1/3 health without Boots. And Boots, as mentioned above, means no Lefties which means no recovery at all. Avoiding a 2HKO or even an OHKO against faster Pokemon is nearly impossible for Glastrier once it is weakened due to its poor defensive typing, and hence once it has traded health for a kill, it probably joins its victim rather than switching out just to be sacced later, which crucially makes its dangerous-seeming Ability often worthless in practice.
So that's the bad. What's the good that makes it potentially worth a rise? 1. Almost always forces a 1-1 trade
Killing a healthy Glastrier without losing a mon to it is an extremely difficult challenge. Chances are it can take one hit from whatever you throw at it and KO back. Sure, it dies or becomes a future sac next turn, but quite a few teams appreciate its ability to punch early holes. 2. Excellent 2-move coverage
STAB+High Horsepower means this is one horse that does not struggle with 4MSS. Swords Dance is then of course mandatory to differentiate itself from Melmetal, but the last slot has many possibilities from Close Combat to Sub to Rest (don't laugh) and more. 3. Soft checks many important Pokemon
Most notably Kyurem cannot break while a healthy Glastrier is around, and anything short of hitting Specs Focus Blast fails to OHKO or even 2HKO Glastrier. Much like Melmetal, while it is healthy Glastrier can trade with almost any Pokemon in the game.
So yeah, that's Glastrier. Put it on your team if you want your Melmetal to learn Swords Dance and not run out of PP while breaking, but don't need as much defensive utility.
If half the UR noms were this good they'd get taken much more seriously. Great post and agree the nom.
This replay shows why I disagree with Zam being ranked-it adds literally nothing defensively to a team, and when you then have to pair it with Lele, another mon that doesn't offer much defensively, there are going to be massive holes in your team.
In this replay, Nihilego wipes half a team for free, and then with any normal team the game is over. But because this team is that cripplingly dark-weak, you have to Trick the sweeper to shut it down. And because Zam is that frail, you then have to sac a mon to get it in on order to do that. If Ribombee has Sash like it should do, it gets off a Stun Spore on Nihilego, and then Nihilego is just setup fodder for Mew, and one of the Ice duo or G-Molt smashes you lategame.
These replays are mostly a showcase of people not knowing the sets of lesser-used mons, and I'd argue Scarf Victini does basically everything Zam does in these replays (including Expanding Force access). Half of the draw of Zam is it's supposed to be super-fast, so why does it need a scarf? You can get decent results by slapping a Scarf on basically any Pokemon with Trick and a spammable STAB so long as no-one realises it's scarf. Gengar, Latios and Victini have this niche nailed down in all corners, and I really don't see what Zam offers as a scarfer over any of those, besides Magic Guard, which doesn't really come up on a Pokemon that frail unless you're using Sash or LO, which you're not.
Well written nom though, and your replays do make a good case for a Nihilego raise, Meteor Beam doesn't seem to be an option that is being respected in-game.
I get where you are coming from and i never argued that zam is better than the psychics/ scarfers present in the tier. I just pointed out the 6 things which it had over the offensive psychics. They have a billion better things , sure. And coming to the dark resist problem...
I built the team in like 2 minutes while I was doing reading for my upcoming semesters lol.
If you notice the replays, The teams idea was kinda lele-zam but rest of the members varied. I used first toad as a ground type, then krook, then finally rhyp. My first defogger was corv but soon i changed it to mandi as you mentioned the dark problem. (Ik the team is bad)
My initial team was all over the place until i could get a hang of a time. So i do agree on that the team is not well built. Next lets come to the replay,
First off ik my oppo was not sash ribombee cuz i did play him just a few games ago. That the reason i led my nihelego and just ohkoed since most players would like to go webs on bombee almost always goes for webs first so ye. Hope you like the rhyp nom tho.
I get where you are coming from and i never argued that zam is better than the psychics/ scarfers present in the tier. I just pointed out the 6 things which it had over the offensive psychics. They have a billion better things , sure.
If Zam fits worse on 99% of teams not explicitly built for it than other psychics in the tier, then it doesn't deserve to be ranked. That's how the VR works, the higher up you are the more teams you fit on without being outclassed relative to how much of the metagame those teams represent. Pokemon that are UR can still work in the tier (eg:Slurpuff not being ranked when it's a godly Webs lead for certain teams that hate Rocks), it's just that they only tend to fit on extremely specific teams that cater exactly to their needs.
Zam being UR does not mean it stops existing, it just means that the set of teams it fits on without being explicitly built around has become way too narrow to be worth mentioning. Zam only fits on extremely specific PsySpam teams, which already a niche playstyle, and is not a splashable option for PsySpam in general. Compare Charizard, which while not a staple on Sun, fits on a fair few Sun teams with good hazard control and provides a nuclear wallbreaker with a power ceiling nothing can match. This is the definition of C-. Zard's niche is narrow, but well-defined. Zam's niche is questionable whether it exists at all, and while it is possible to build around it, doing so leads to a lot of weaknesses in team structure and a very linear teambuilding process.
And coming to the dark resist problem...
I built the team in like 2 minutes while I was doing reading for my upcoming semesters lol.
If you notice the replays, The teams idea was kinda lele-zam but rest of the members varied. I used first toad as a ground type, then krook, then finally rhyp. My first defogger was corv but soon i changed it to mandi as you mentioned the dark problem. (Ik the team is bad)
I wasn't pointing anything towards your team in particular, I was looking at the general problems of building with Lele+Zam, and as I'm sure you've discovered, both lend little in the way of defensive structure. Building for a metagame as diverse as this with only 4 slots (3 if you're going with Blace) is very difficult. This is why I'd say Victini is better than Zam on these types of structures, especially since you're going with a Scarfed set:
Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (very customisable)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Trick
- Blue Flare/V-Create/coverage
- Scorching Sands/Focus Blast/other coverage/Final Gambit/U-Turn
The extra Fire typing and bulk combine to let Victini switch into a few things in pinch Zam cannot dream of touching, while Victini also boasts a much deeper movepool (and 77% accurate Focus Miss!). In return you do lose out on some firepower, but Victini's utility and coverage+mixed potential greatly makes up for that IMO.
is a fantastic Pokemon with a potent offensive presence, but it is not S-. We just rose it to A+ and even that was not unanimous. The best Kyurem sets are very support reliant, oftentimes requiring reliable hazard control and some assistance when it comes to finding openings against ideal opposing Pokemon. Yes, Kyurem is strong and has stupidly good natural bulk, but S- is a territory for Pokemon that approach staple status in the metagame on certain archetypes, define the tier to an extent, and find their way into the conversation to be integrated on to many, many teams. Kyurem is not that at all. Kyurem is a strong Pokemon that is a pain in the ass to handle when you go down your teambuilding checklist, which is a testament to a great offensive presence and good set mix. But despite this, there are many limitations to it, causing it to only work on a handful of structures, and it is nowhere near as viable as the top 3-5 Pokemon in the tier because of this. 
to C+
to B-
to C
to B+
to UR, it still is run in stalls
rising
falling
rising
and friends falling
and 
/
Golurk 
-> A+
-> b-
-> C- or C
latter can be offensive. and 
->C-
