Tournament CAP Winter Team Tournament Policy Discussion

[Tadasuke]

CAP Winter Team Tournament Policy Discussion
​

Alright pals, given the widespread desire to begin discussion on our winter team tournament, I've decided to open up this thread so we can get everything settled in the next few weeks before starting. As per decisions made in this thread, we will be opting to remove CAP Snake Draft as a format and instead replace it with a second annual auction-based draft tournament. There's a lot of ground to cover here with regards to logistics, so I'd like to dive straight into it.

First and foremost, this tournament is going to need a name. While it's very easy to play it safe by following Smogon's team tournament scene and name it CAP Champions League, I'm more than open to alternative name suggestions if we feel like giving this tournament an identity singular to CAP. With this in mind, I'd like to pose this first discussion question, what should our winter team tournament be named? Please keep submissions tame and reasonable. In the interest of expediency, there will be no voting on this matter; I'll simply pick the most reasonable name with the widest community support.

The next topic, which will probably comprise the bulk of the discussion here, is the matter of which tiers we'd like to see represented in our weekly lineups. As of now, my plan is to maintain the tradition of having at least 3 slots for current gen CAP, while leaving the other three slots open for debate. As was discussed in this thread, many people would like to use our winter team tournament to showcase CAP OMs, while using CAPPL to promote activity in CAP Old Gens. Given that since CAPPL VII we've had tournaments for both CAP LC and BW CAP, both seem like solid contenders for this iteration of the CAP winter team tour. However, I don't want to use this as a basis to exclude any other formats which might garner support. As of now, I'd like to open up discussion on whether or not the following formats might merit inclusion in the tour:

• CAP Monotype​
• CAP Little Cup​
• SM CAP​
• ORAS CAP​
• BW CAP​
• BDSP CAP​

I'll leave it up to those who post in this thread to go into depth on the value of including any of the aforementioned formats, but I feel that this is a fairly exhaustive list of worthwhile options.

Something that's presented itself as a logistical difficulty in recent team tours has been policy surrounding assistant managers and manager pricing. At this point I want to be explicit in saying that we will forego discussion on the necessity of assistant managers, and instead focus more closely on how manager and assistant manager prices are decided. A wide variety of methods are available to us, however I feel that many of them are suboptimal for this specific tournament setting, while others are prone to abuse. With this in mind I'd like to open discussion now on what specific method might be the most fair for assigning prices to managers and assistant managers.

I plan to add more questions regarding our formats once a consensus has been reached in the initial discussion.

 

[dex]

I'll take this time to shill Monotype CAP as a tier that I personally think would be a great addition to the Winter Team Tour. Monotype CAP has a lot going for it as an accessible tier:

1. There is a large amount of overlap between the Monotype community and CAP team tour players. Roxie, Splash, Maroon, Sputnik, and myself are all examples of Monotype players that play in CAP team tours.
2. The tier has some establishment to it. Monotype CAP was a tier for Mono OMPL, and it saw a decent amount of innovation then. Bans for the tier have already been figured out. The tier is stable, and quite fun to play.
3. Monotype CAP is not too different from SS Monotype, with only a few exceptions being the viable CAPs. It is accessible not only to CAP players but also to monotype players.
4. Revenankh is not as much of an issue as was previously thought. Ghost in general has seen a downturn in usage, and the mon has sufficient counterplay.

Outside of Monotype, I would like to also see BDSP CAP as a tier for the team tour. While it is obviously quite new, I think this is actually a point in its favor, as it is likely to drive interest and innovation based on its novelty. BDSP metagames have been fairly popular as of late, and I think there would be no issue finding players who want to play the tier. There is also already resources for the tier along with the complete edited movesets for the BDSP CAP mons, so everything is prepared for BDSP CAP to be a real thing.

 

[Brambane]

As much as I love CAP LC, the meta has some significant balance issues that extend beyond just Cawdet and Solotl, which means we cannot just slap two bans on the format and ship it out to team tours. The CAP LC community needs to organize a discussion period where we can talk policy, metagame, and how to address baby CAPs like Cawdet. The meta itself could also use more development and experimentation. I don't think it's addition would contribute positively to this team tour.

I would support Monotype. I haven't played too much of CAP Monotype, but I have enjoyed my time with SS Monotype and it doesn't seem drastically different. And as dex mentioned, I suspect there would be enough interest from some monotype regs to support it here.

CAP BDSP is arguably even more unproven and volatile than CAP LC, but the BDSP hype train has given it more momentum and interest. I am not opposed to its inclusion if only because there simply seems to be more potential interest from more CAP regs and new players in it. If CAP LC (or Little Cup in general) had the same degree of hype surrounding it I would lean more towards wanting to see it in this tour.

I personally like BW CAP. Steam buns has done a great job working on resources and the metagame plays out a much different flavor than the later CAP gens (this is kinda true for BW in general.) I don't think it's a perfect metagame, but this is a good place to give it more room to grow. There are some questionable things regarding metagame balance, but people complain all the time about that with BW LOL. At least CAP BW has more viable spinners to deal with Spikes... But holy fuck keep Aurumoth and Cawmodore banned. If I have to play BW again with Aurumoth allowed I am going to vomit.

I hate Gen 6/7 OU and by extension CAP but not enough for me to raise a huff about it. But in the interest of including BW BDSP and Mono I could see them getting cut so the format is SwSh/SwSh/SwSh/BDSP/Mono/BW.

 

[Astra]

I greatly support BDSP CAP to have a slot. This obviously sounds very biased coming from the metagame's leader, but there are plenty of reasons why it should be a format in the tournament.

Firstly, the hype around BDSP as a whole cannot be ignored. I'm fairly confident that having BDSP CAP as a format will attract newer players simply due to the popularity of BDSP OU at the moment. While the format is completely brand new and built on top of a metagame that has yet to be fully explored, this can be used as an opportunity, as dex said, to not only make people attracted to playing in the tournament, but also help to quickly develop the metagame with creativity and innovation.

Another point I'd like to make is that unlike other CAP metagames, BDSP CAP's learning curve isn't as steep, as this metagame only introduces 11 CAPs on top of everything available in BDSP OU. Alongside the fact that BDSP as a whole has a lot of hype and interest at the moment, this will also help attract new players greatly.

Finally, while it is true that we haven't taken a true deep dive into making sure BDSP CAP is a fun and healthy metagame, I and the rest of the metagame council can assure you that we will work to make sure that it is before this tournament. Everyone on the council has at least great knowledge on BDSP OU, CAP, or both, and there has already been some discussion on what Pokemon will be on our watchlist. Additionally, with the Inaugural BDSP CAP Tournament being very soon, we'll be using the data from there to further help us with our decisions prior to the winter team tournament. I'll also see if we can get this tournament promoted by the BDSP heads so that we can really get as much information as we can.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

CAP LC: I really want to say yes to this, but I have to say no unfortunately. While the tournament was a great insight into the metagame and did help with some development, the sad truth is the metagame is just too unbalanced in its current state to put in a tournament like this. Once we get the metagame in a more balanced state (Namely ban Solotl and Cawdet, and look at other potentially problematic mons like Dorsoil and Floatoy) it will be a great addition to future team tours though, its just not ready yet.

None of the other proposed metagames should really pose any challenges to their inclusion (Even though I hate Monotype, but that's down to a personal bias rather than an objective lens) and BDSP CAP just sounds like a given for this tournament because of the hype around it.

 

[shnowshner]

Just a couple thoughts from someone who's been wanting to be more involved in tournaments:

CAP LC isn't a good idea. Others have said this already and I agree. While the revival tour was fun to play in, that was largely a result of it being low-stakes: a larger, more prolific tournament like this one is not ideal. There's a lot of borked mons running around even outside of the obvious two, and I imagine it will take some time until all the problematic elements are ironed out.

BDSP would be a smart inclusion for the general interest around the unique metagame it provides, and I do believe it would fit into the tournament just fine. While having less time to develop than CAP LC seems like a contradiction, I feel we have the benefit of our CAPs in this format actually being designed around the Pokemon in the metagame instead of being largely flavor projects tossed into the mix. Not to say that BDSP is going to be remotely similar to DPP, but rather the power level of the CAPs is at least more comparable to the general metagame than stuff like Solotl, Cawdet, Mumbao, and Floatoy, which really feel like they're leagues ahead the standard, and weren't really designed to be balanced in any metagame as much as they were a cute little thing to do on the side.

I am a tad skeptical about older generations to an extent, not as someone familiar with these metas but moreso from word-of-mouth. ORAS in particular has a lot of negative stigma around it due to Mega Cruc from what I can remember, as does BW and Aurumoth. This is probably completely obvious to say, but before adding these it would be a good idea to see if players actually want to play them, and if not what is discouraging players and if anything can be done about it.

Monotype is a fine addition, it's one of the tamer and easier to grasp OMs due to not introducing anything mechanically different, while being unique enough in play thanks to team restrictions that it can garner attention.

Oh, and as much as I'd like to come up with a name, I think knowing the tier lineup would help more in giving it an appropriate and/or interesting title.

 

[Steam Buns]

messy post as I’ve just been jotting stuff down during breaks, sorry.

can’t comment on lcap or mono as I haven’t played them.

With BW I’m obviously a little biased but I can say confidently that resources are very solid and still improving, meta balance post aurumoth also doesn’t seem to be a concern, the only thing that does worry me slightly is the smaller player base but given the scale of this tour and number of entrants revival tour had, I think we’ll be ok. All that in mind I definitely think we should have a slot for it, the tier is very enjoyable and has a lot still to be learned about it.

BDSP is an interesting choice, while it is literally only a few days old, there’s tons of interest and momentum as well as quite a large group of people already working on resources. On top of that we have knowledge of bdsp ou, dpp cap and ss cap to borrow from. So I think it’s reasonable to expect plenty of metagame development by the time this tour would start, and I fully support its inclusion as well.

In regards to oras and sm, I love both tiers but given the intent of this tour I don’t see a reason to include either of them unless we were really short on options, however If oras were to experience some significant meta shift like a mon getting banned, as a totally random example. I think it would make sense to use this tournament as an opportunity to explore that. But this isn’t likely to happen so soon.

Finally I feel I should briefly touch on dpp cap, since it hasn’t been mentioned at all. I happen find the tier to be much more fun than any other cap metas atm and it’s also experienced a lot of development very recently, unfortunately I can’t actually vouch for it as an option as there just isn’t nearly enough interest right now, recent resource updates have been stagnating somewhat and most of the people who might play the tier would likely prioritise all the others I’ve mentioned so far, however given more time for bdsp hype to settle down and busy schedules to clear up, I see dpp cap becoming much more prevalent.

 

[The Number Man]

Finally have some time to make this post.

1) Metas

I dislike LC, from what i've heard its pretty imba, idt there's much interest for it among cappers. Usum is lame, Oras is ok but both were in cappl so probably only include them as a last resort? BW BDSP Mono + 3SS sounds good to me. Altho personally im probs gonna be playing SS so I dont really have skin in the game.

2) Manager prices

Custom prices seems like the best way to go about this. You don't want to give good players an unfair advantage, but you also don't want to prevent average players from playing as managers by making the default manager price too high. At the same time, I don't think the price disparity should be too high, nor do I think strong players should go for ridiculously inflated prices where they then decide they aren't willing to put in the effort required to justify that price and end up not playing in the tour.

So what I propose is picking a default price - 10k or 12,5k for example and then incrementing the self-buy price by a multiple of 3k (the price for a sub) according to how much better than the average player the playing manager is. So +3k for reliably positive players,+6k for reliably highly positive players. Add a +9k tier if you think its necessary to categorize more thoroughly. As for how you would rank the managers, just make a community power rankings - there's more content for the commencement thread, people get gassed up, people get pissed for ranking lower than they think they should etc. What's not to love?

I tried to come up with a good name but I'm drawing a blank here sadly.

 

[quziel]

Remember with manager prices they should be somewhat low. Eg if Stresh is managing, you are only paying purely for his playing ability, not for his building, which discounts the price by a fair bit. Aka how much is a player that you pass teams that will go 5-0 worth? I would argue this caps out at 20-25k given the team sizes.

 

[Lasen]

Very sleep deprived, so I won't write much.

Call it Tundra CAP. It's good, it's a pun.

Don't do LC quite yet; I would like the tier to develop further (I'd help out if my schedule didn't have me balancing things on a knife's edge) because it lacks that extra tid-bit of balance that early LC had without the large playerbase to balance it out. Definitely looking forward to more of it in the future, though.
BDSP CAP is a meta I'm a council on so take a guess what my stance is.
BW CAP genuinely felt... fresh. I've done a few tests with Steam Buns on and off and it's one of the few tiers where bringing standard.ou.txt didn't end me in having an amazing match-up, would definitely like more of it. Keep Aurumoth banned, though, every time I playtest with it it gets 2 kills.
Also I think I mentioned in some PRC post within the last year but please, do include CAP Mono. It's a fun metagame and a playerbase for it does exist, albeit a bit niche.

I'd also like to once again remind you how much I hate World CAP. Please don't do this...

 

[spoo]

Tiers:
I think BW + BDSP + Mono are the right slots for this tour. The issues with LC have been discussed, and if we're sticking to the whole "oldgens summer TT, OMs winter TT" thing, then SM/ORAS doesn't make a ton of sense. That being said, I am very fond of ORAS and I can guarantee a council vote on Crucibellite before this tour kicks off. The tier is a lot of fun, and inclusion in this TT would help to develop the tier especially if Crucibellite does get banned. In the event that we do choose ORAS, I would probably slot it over BW so we only have one oldgen represented––however, BW could use the development even more than ORAS, and the tier is also very fun and new like Lasen pointed out above, which leads me to still favor it over ORAS slightly. Dex and Estronic made good posts on Mono and BDSP respectively; I think those tiers should be very easy inclusions.

Name:
This one's easy, CAP Champions league

Manager Prices:
Definitely go for custom prices. Doing flat rates across the board doesn't make sense––eg, pricing stresh or rabia at 10/12.5k would be dumb––and doing some kind of "10k base +2k per win in last PL" formulaic approach is flawed, as even some of our most exceptional players / managers have bad tours sometimes (just look through last CAPPL's records).

IIRC last CAPPL each manager submitted what they thought would be a fair price for all the other managers, and the final prices were the averages of those prices. Despite this approach being possible to abuse, I think it worked well and I would not mind doing it again. If someone tries to submit an absurdly low price for themselves / high price for someone else, it's usually pretty obvious + easy for the tour host to go "sorry try again, that ain't a fair price." If we want to further safeguard this method against abuse, we could also simply remove the highest and lowest submitted prices for each manager and not include these extremes when averaging out the rest.

TNM's suggestion would also work, and while I think method I described is a little more flexible, the idea of community PR for managers sounds fun and could add to tour hype. Not that a PR is strictly necessary for his proposal––we could go about separating the managers into 10k/13k/etc price tiers a different way––but it definitely sounds like the most fun way to do so, and not super logistically challenging either.

 

[quziel]

Manager Prices:

Give each team 10k, 20k, 30k, some number of penalty funds that they can distribute to any other manager/co-manager's price as they choose. The managers then can self-buy for 10k + the total of all penalty funds placed on them by all other teams. Do this blind. The method last time ended up wtih a lot of our strongest players basically supporting all of the tour, which is not desirable. I wish to see a dude like stresh play, provided they sacrifice an appropriate amount. This means that we need to price each manager fairly (for their playing ability alone).

 

[D2TheW]

Gm. It is 1am. Here are my thoughts.

Tour name: Naviathan's Nativity Tour
or tundra cap but mine is better. Don't call it cap champions league please.

Tiers:
Mono: Good option, established playerbase and resources. Should definitely be included.

BW: It's fine. The one issue I do have with bw is that I'm not sure it will bring in many signups and therefore could be awkward to fill. That being said, it's not that difficult to pickup imo, established players could definitely pick this up if they want to. If good players do play this, it would also be a big boost for it's development. Should probably be included.

BDSP: Hmm. I'm really on the fence on this one. On the one hand I think it would spark a fair bit of interest and would be a godsend for development of this meta. On the other hand, this tier is still in the very early stages and is in a state of near constant flux. Latios is being suspected rn with Manaphy to follow and god knows what else after (broken shrimp??? :flushed:). Bans every few weeks are gonna make an already unstable meta outright chaos for those building and playing it, especially if each ban causes something else to become even more broken. At best this slot will be a bit chaotic but fun, at worst it'll be outright uncompetitive. If the timeline works I'd like to see a few weeks of the upcoming bdsp startup tour, to see if the meta is reasonable before committing to it. If that's not possible then it's a bit of a risk but I'm not dead set against it, just a bit concerned.

Oras: best option for the last slot if bdsp seems too much of a mess. Cruci should def be voted on tho.

LCAP: This meta is an absolute mess. It's very much still in the budding stages though there has been progress with the cawdet ban. That being said, the council is literally a day old at time of writing, and to be brutally honest, the quality of the games in the startup tour was not good. I'm not convinced it'd bring that much interest since the startup tour brought in like 6 lc mains and a few others who got act called r1. I also just generally don't love the idea of one of the six games being decided by a speed tie every sodding week but that's just personal preference. Don't include imo.

DPP: Just gonna touch on this since it has been briefly brought up in this thread and on cord. This tier has had no tour, no notable development and a grand total of approximately 5 players. Obviously this should not be included.

2v2: The best meta available should 100% be included what are you doing get your hands off me Tadasuke these people deserve to hear the truth. No please don't put me in the basement again there was a rat the size of a cocker spaniel there last time, and when I hit it with a broom the broom broke and it just got angrier. I'm sorry, I'll behave.

My preferred slots:
SS
SS
SS
Mono
BW
BDSP/Oras

Manager Prices:
I think the system we used in pl was functional and I'd be fine with it being used again. That said, I do agree with Quz that disincentivising managers from playing can be a problem, so some method of trying to cheapen managers by a bit would be good. Only a bit tho I'm not tryna see 10k stresh out here lmao. Quziel's proposal seems a bit convoluted and somewhat easy to rig so I'm not a big fan of it. Managers X and Y can privately agree to not increase each other's price which a) defeats the point of the system and b) is quite hard to prevent so far as I can see. I do like the idea behind it tho, there's potential for a better version of that system to be implemented and work well. Unfortunately my 6 brain cells are currently preoccupied so I do not have a solution. If we can't come up with anything of that sort, the system used in cappl will probably still be fine. Managers not playing is bad in theory but in practice, last cappl only two managers did not self-buy, jho and stresh, both of whom did not solely attribute this to their price tag iirc. Be grand sure.

Also

Fr tho don't include lcap and definitely don't include dpp ffs.

 

[SHSP]

what should our winter team tournament be named?

Tundra CAP or Champs League seem cool. Not sold on anything yet, though.

Tiers- Mono should get a slot- most of what was said in the CAPPL discussion in favor of it holds, if not further improved. I'd argue this is the most solidly deserving of the tiers presented.

CAPLC- This has been discussed to death. Underdeveloped, not particularly competitive right now, not a boon to signups. No thanks.

ORAS- Not opposed to this being included. It's still relatively fresh in its modern form while also being something that attracts eyes and produces good games, as shown by its CAPPL premiere.

BW- Another old gen I would enjoy seeing. It's had steady, solid development and as people like Lasen have said, it's quite fresh and would probably produce a really good weekly product.

BDSP- God I'm conflicted on this. On one hand, BDSP meta seems interesting, very fresh to play in, and would develop quickly with a team tour. On the other hand... this is basically brand new. I'm really not thrilled with the idea of a nearly completely unexplored meta in a flagship tour, and that's amplified by the fact that there's threats in the main meta (things like Manaphy down the line) and potentially among the CAPs. I can't say I'm thrilled to consider it, but it's something to consider, especially if the launch tour goes well.

My pick for metas would be SS/SS/SS/ORAS/BW/Mono. I don't love the talk about "if you do BW/ORAS you might as well include SM-" I don't agree, I think you can absolutely exclude our arguably most discussed, most played (in team tours and otherwise) old gen/OM in a tour built more around underplayed or newer metagames. I'm not super comfortable with BDSP, but if it were to take a slot, put it over ORAS.

Manager prices should be custom, absolutely. The system D2/Spoo described using for last PL works, especially if the managers are all on the same page about it going in.

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

small post in support of the tiers that shsp suggested in the post above. Agree with BW being included, long term, developing another oldgen to be "tour-worthy" seems like a good idea in my eyes, and we currently have the resources/interest to do so. Also in favour of adding ORAS as the 5th slot, and mono/bdsp being the sixth - with a vote on cruc, we will have a different tier that will need some time to get to solidify itself into a proper tier, with this being a good oppurtunity. My preference for it to be the 5th slot mainly lies due to how new mono/bdsp are, as prepping for oras will just be easier, but not something that we havent done before (the latter is the case for the other two options, for their own reasons). My preference for the sixth slot would be sm mono as of rn if we had to do one of them, quoting shsp here since he said it better "I'm really not thrilled with the idea of a nearly completely unexplored meta in a flagship tour"
If we really want to include both mono and bdsp, i want to mention the option doing a bo3 of gens 5/6/7, with BW being the first tier. The concept in itself isnt something unheard of as mwp recently did ss/ss/ss/bo3(oldgens)/ndm/threat as their slots

Support custom prices for managers ; CAP Champions League/Tundra CAP sounds good if we cant come with something better

 

[Zephyri]

gm cap im posting today listen to my thoughts. stealing d2's format bcs im a lazy bitch with sleep deprivation

Name: CAPCL (cap catboys league)

Tiers:
Mono: Balanced tier that's been in a team tour and has had significant development since its inception; mono is a shoo-in for this tour

BW: I haven't played the tier but it seems like a solid tier at first glance. My main issue is idt it'll draw in any new playerbases or any new players at all, but other people say it's easy to learn so i'll trust them on that. there's nothing else I have to say about bw though; solid, interesting tier with plenty of potential for decent games

BDSP: Please please please no. This tier literally did not exist until about 2 weeks ago. I'll admit that the meta looks really fun to play in, but regardless of how interesting the game is, it's basically brand new. I'm very apprehensive about adding what is essentially a crapshoot metagame to most of the playerbase to this tour. I think the tier itself has a ton of potential and would be a really neat addition to CAPPL if it develops well, but I think itd be a mistake to include it rn. im hyped for the startup tour tho.

ORAS: i don't like ORAS; i think the fact that it's already in CAPPL makes it less than ideal. However, it's better than BDSP for the last slot so I'm all for it

LC: I, personally, really like the metagame, and I think the balance issues are being somewhat overstated ("one of the six games being decided by a speed tie every sodding week", specifically, is a massive overstatement that is genuinely just ignorant LOL), but i'll admit that the meta will likely become very chaotic because of the cawdet ban. It's in the same boat as bdsp for me, where the post-cawdet metagame is too raw and under-developed to be in a flagship tour. I think LC has a lot of potential for CAPPL though, and I hope it'll be considered again in july or october or whenever CAPPL rolls around again

DPP: Binpin is my favorite player please include this OwO

My preferred slots:
SS
SS
SS
Mono
BW
ORAS

haven't fully wrapped my head around spitfire's bo3 idea yet but it seems interesting and i hope it'll get some serious discussion


Manager Prices:
Agree that managers should be incentivized to play, also agree that quziel's system is sorta convoluted. How about this; make the managers submit prices for the other managers and average those prices, but have a cap on the prices submitted by the managers, their last cappl price+3k or something idk (3k is arbitrary). I feel like this makes prices less unreasonable and incentivizes managers to play while also making sure 10k stresh isn't a thing.

 

[Wulfanator]

I only feel the need to comment on the manager/assistant manager pricing. I think the custom pricing used last CAPPL worked well and that any other system that allows top talent to go for unreasonably low prices should not be considered. If you are guaranteed a spot on a team with your friend and are one of the best players in the tour, you should be willing to pay more than 25k to play.

Spoo's recommendation for dropping the highest and lowest prices seems like the smartest decision.

 

[Jordy]

if u put in oras and bw but not the most well-rounded cap tier, sm, u should retire

 

[Nalorium]

BW is horrible pls add it, and I support this proposal. I dont support users like Rabia tho

SS
SS
SS
Mono
ORAS
BW

 

[Maxouille]

Bdsp is a must have to start right away this new meta.
SM best old Gen very reliable playerbase.
LC > monotype as a low tier, but both are better than the st triplet for this tour imo.
World CAP hihi.

PS: I didn't really read about that part but I think we were too much by team during last cappl so please reduce de maximum player amount teams can carry/hundle to something like number of slot + 3/4 rather than half of the player benched

 

[Tadasuke]

So the general consensus seems to be that we want 3 SS / 1 Mono / 1 BW, however people seem to be split on ORAS vs BDSP. Since ORAS recently banned Crucibellite, I'd like to see a bit more discussion on these two metas before I make a decision. With regards to manager prices, I think an effective compromise would be to have managers submit prices with a point cap at 25000, then drop the highest and lowest prices and take the average. Feel free to post if you think anything about that should be amended.

 

[shnowshner]

I think following the ORAS ban it looks a lot more promising, not just because the most controversial aspect of the tier was removed but also due to any interest that might arise in testing the new format and seeing how it plays without one of its most historically centralizing influencers. Depending on timing as well, I don't know how to feel about our ongoing BDSP tournament practically leading right into a "second" one, on one hand it feels too close but on the other the tour should provide enough development to make BDSP in the Winter TT more appropriate.

How certain is everyone on 3 SS? I really don't have too big of a stake in the exact lineup but would like to make sure whatever is being played is something people are willing to play with, and not just rolling along with 3 SS simply because that's what always been done and not really giving it a second thought.

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

quick post in support of oras as the last slot. Even after giving weightage to the bdsp hype, oras makes a lot more sense in my eyes, especially in the long run (potential cap classic / 8 slots with all oldgens in cappl) As was mentioned earlier, mega crucibelle will be re-suspected after the next tour that oras is part of, and this is the prime opportunity to do that