Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Baloor]

ive been spamming this as a meme in ou room but i legitimately think bulutran + water type has the potential to be a very fun core to spam now. one of the biggest detractors to using FWG like this was kyurem, and with that problem gone it opens a ton of cool options defensively. memorial sm builds (these are memes but really fun) as a whole get a lot better because most of them all lost to kyurem lol. very excited to see where the meta heads defensively and hopefully some new offensive faces like bulu can rise up.

 

[Zeno420]

I think I just deleted over 50 teams in my builder with kyurem ngl. Definitely a big blow to my balance teams which mainly includes fat shit + 1 breaker (kyurem). But this ban definitely frees up team building by so much, it’s such a relieve not having to stack kyurem “checks” on fatter builds ie scizor, blissey, and glowking to an extent. I’ll share some teams I been playing around with during the nmi kyurem era, but they definitely have gotten much more viable with that monstrosity gone.

 

[Finchinator]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/evasion-abilities-in-ss-ou.3694852/#post-9055800 - The OU Council has began a discussion on the policy regarding evasion (abilities) in the SS OU metagame.

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

 

[Sagdiyev]

bye bye kyurem!
nice knowing you, now time to watch bliss drop like a stone in air

 

[Katy]

nice knowing you, now time to watch bliss drop like a stone in air

I dont think Blissey will drop off in usage that much like you initially will think at the moment. It's still a great blanket check to other very dangerous and metagame defining Pokemon such as Tapu Lele which thrives currently, Tapu Koko, Dragapult, Blacephalon which also thrives currently, demon Mew, where it can offer safe momentum for an offensive teampartner which can also wall it, if it is non-Body Press, and other special wallbreakers like Gengar (tho it cannot do much when it is Toxic, but can offer momentum in a safe way vs Gengar), and other potent Pokemon like Zapdos and Heatran.

All those Pokemon can be blanket checked by Blissey, although Ghost-types itself are hard for Blissey itself to wear down by its own, but it can at least offer itself as a pivot to them and use Teleport of pivoting out slowly and in a safe way to bring in a faster check or even counter. I think just because Kyurem is gone doesn't make Blissey competely obsolete in the progress of SSOU. Blissy will still be able to capitalize from the aforementioned special wallbreakers and keeps up its usage. I would say Scizor is more of a Pokemon which can have a chance to drop in usage, as this Pokemon although with being great in compensate Tapu Lele and Kyurem in 1 slot, it still was able to get overwhelmed quickly by Choice Specs variants. Scizor also isn't that great in checking Tapu Lele to begin with as Psychic Terrain cancels out the Steel-type STAB, which threatens Tapu Lele the most. The best Scizor was able to do was offer itself here as a check to Moonblast or Psychic / Psyshock and U-turn out on it into an offensive threat, which actually can threaten Tapu Lele directly in an offensive measure.

I think Blisseys usage will most likely stay maybe with some tiny whatnot percentages less, but Blissey won't drop the ball that hard, I am in the belief that Scizor is more likely to drop in usage than Blissey, as Blissey can compensate other special attackers a bit better than Scizor can.

 

[RaikouLover]

Let rain return to its rightful glory! Bye bye Kyurem! You will not be missed.

Bye Scizor usage as well? I still think ‘Zor is a solid mon but there is considerably less incentive to use now.

Thank god no more cheese Screens + Sub DD Kyurem madness.

Who’s next? Melmetal?

 

[Empress Mobile]

This is a big blow to hail teams but a W for balance and offense, which really disliked switching into Kyurem. Also great news for Gastrodon, Fini, and other Freeze-Dry targets. I won't be using spdef Ferrothorn on every team anymore but I still plan to use it frequently since Spikes is still great.

:crabrave: Kyurem is gone :crabrave:

I don't really think this constitutes a big blow to hail teams. Hail functions on the success of its main setter and abuser. I think there are plenty of options which support hail better than Kyurem did. In fact, the loss of its Freeze Dry within the metagame appears to bolster easy Bolt Beak targets like Toxapex and Tapu Fini.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I believe pokemon like jirachi will fall.... they prey on pokemon like kyurem esp sp. def jirachi who can tank kyurem with ease. I believe also hydreigon will rise as kyurem is a similar breaker to it but just is stronger and has better tools

 

[Baloor]

I'm under the belief that hail teams will probably see a bit of increased usage again. Kyurem leaving isnt really a blow to hail teams because frankly it wasnt really a abuser and was just there to be kyurem. It really offered not much to the archetype. Without kyurem in the tier its likely we'll see less of the steel stack cores which is actually a net positive for hail. Also means stuff like ferro will probably be running generally physdef sets right now which makes it a bit easier for zolt blizzards to get through it (though its still gonna be a pain in the ass). I really see more positives for hail than negatives with the kyurem ban.

 

[658Greninja]

Kyurem being banned is the funniest thing in the SS meta and I wouldn’t have expected it a year ago. Anyways

Bulky waters are gonna pop off hard without Kyurem being there to crack them open like a Ritz cracker. Rilla, and offensive Zapdos lost one check. With bulky waters likely gonna surge higher we can expect these two to pop off as well. One less ice type is always good for Lando, especially since now offensive Lando has one less check

 

[Empress Mobile]

Kyurem being banned is the funniest thing in the SS meta and I wouldn’t have expected it a year ago. Anyways

View attachment 392057View attachment 392058View attachment 392059View attachment 392060View attachment 392061
Bulky waters are gonna pop off hard without Kyurem being there to crack them open like a Ritz cracker. Rilla, and offensive Zapdos lost one check. With bulky waters likely gonna surge higher we can expect these two to pop off as well. One less ice type is always good for Lando, especially since now offensive Lando has one less check

Maybe a chance for a Slowking rise? Both Slow twins appreciate this but possibly Slowking moreso since it removes a special attacker it still can't handle in spite of its bulk. Hail is gonna have a field day with the uptick in bulky waters (minus Gastrodon and Rotom). I think in addition to hail, other Ice types will be needed to fill in the role for Ice type offense.

I think it's a mixed bag for Heatran. It could easily be put on the back foot by Kyurem previously but hates some of the meta trends that are coming.

 

[QY_CS]

Context reference: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/evasion-abilities-in-ss-ou-done.3694852/#post-9060064
Now that Evasion Abilities and Items are banned... When are the sleep-inducing moves going to be banned?
Sleep moves had been of the exact same nature, the amount of turns to wake up is entirely luck based and can drastically turn the game around. There are little counterplays to such as people can always fish for 3 turn sleeps instead of playing competitively in order to get a win. Sleep clause had always been a terrible complex clause that cannot even exist on the actual game, and it should really be replaced by a simple ban on all sleep-inducing moves.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Sleep clause had always been a terrible complex clause that cannot even exist on the actual game

Multiple official games actually include a sleep clause. Sleep Clause Mod is indeed a mod, but it's intended to be a reminder of "no, don't do that, you're an idiot" because the alternative is you just immediately lose, which I believe is how actual cartridge sleep clause works.

 

[remetagross]

Besides, sleep has a ton of counters compared to evasion boosting: having a mon already statused, clerics, lum berries, waking up after 1 turn can seriously screw the sleep user too so the opportunity cost is higher than spamming Substitute under sand storm.

 

[theotherguytm]

Also also, sleep users suck.
Spore is literally only usable by Amoonguss, a defensive Pokemon that relies on it to incapacitate one of the many Pokemon that can threaten it, and is hardly likely to break the game even with with 2 free turns.
Sleep Powder is used by the very similar Tangrowth, and occasionally by Venusaur who usually can't spare the moveslot.
Hypnosis is used by Alolan Ninetales on the rare occasions it doesn't want two of: Hail to set Veil against other weather teams, Encore to prevent it turning into setup fodder and to mess with other leads, or Pain Split to give itself some form of longevity. It does have other potential users like Blace and Gengar, but again in practice they are so strapped for slots that no sets can actually run it, and also they are both so frail that a 40% miss can easily cost them their lives. At this point it's worth noting that between the chance to wake after 1 turn and the miss rate, Hypnosis has a <50% chance of granting you a free turn.
Grass Whistle lol.
Sing, also lol, and why are you using this on your Blissey/Clef instead of a far more useful utility move, like Stealth Rock, Teleport, Wish, Thunder Wave or Toxic.
Anything else I forgot?

 

[QY_CS]

Multiple official games actually include a sleep clause. Sleep Clause Mod is indeed a mod, but it's intended to be a reminder of "no, don't do that, you're an idiot" because the alternative is you just immediately lose, which I believe is how actual cartridge sleep clause works.

Consider the following: One use encore on another pokemon to force it into sleep move. On cartridge it does not matter, because sleep clause doesn't exist anyways. However, on smogon sleep will be forced to fail, meaning that you gain free turn and force switch by doing the encore.

Besides, sleep has a ton of counters compared to evasion boosting: having a mon already statused, clerics, lum berries, waking up after 1 turn can seriously screw the sleep user too so the opportunity cost is higher than spamming Substitute under sand storm.

The nature of sleep is uncompetitive, not the strength of it. Every play has its counters, and obviously evasion can be countered by using accuracy boosting moves, using no guard or using moves that doesn't miss. If you look further ahead there's King's Rock that also has less than 50% chance to flinch which is unreliable as well. What matters is not about how its harder to take advantage of some uncompetitive mechanics compared to taking advantage of others, but the fact that its uncompetitive itself.

Also also, sleep users suck.
Spore is literally only usable by Amoonguss, a defensive Pokemon that relies on it to incapacitate one of the many Pokemon that can threaten it, and is hardly likely to break the game even with with 2 free turns.
Sleep Powder is used by the very similar Tangrowth, and occasionally by Venusaur who usually can't spare the moveslot.
Hypnosis is used by Alolan Ninetales on the rare occasions it doesn't want two of: Hail to set Veil against other weather teams, Encore to prevent it turning into setup fodder and to mess with other leads, or Pain Split to give itself some form of longevity. It does have other potential users like Blace and Gengar, but again in practice they are so strapped for slots that no sets can actually run it, and also they are both so frail that a 40% miss can easily cost them their lives. At this point it's worth noting that between the chance to wake after 1 turn and the miss rate, Hypnosis has a <50% chance of granting you a free turn.
Grass Whistle lol.
Sing, also lol, and why are you using this on your Blissey/Clef instead of a far more useful utility move, like Stealth Rock, Teleport, Wish, Thunder Wave or Toxic.
Anything else I forgot?

Assuming a pokemon won't run it because of 4mss is not the right way to look at it, there's barely anyone that take advantage of evasion in the meta too, yet its still banned. Its not about whether the majority runs it or not, its about the uncompetitiveness the tech itself presents.

 

[KaenSoul]

Multiple official games actually include a sleep clause.

But this isnt Pokemon Stadium OU, there is no Sleep Clause in Sword and Shield. The solution shouldnt be a mod.

Sleep Clause Mod is indeed a mod, but it's intended to be a reminder of "no, don't do that, you're an idiot" because the alternative is you just immediately lose, which I believe is how actual cartridge sleep clause works.

Is not just a reminder as it allow you to click the move anyway, thats important in PP battles, there is no reason for the showdown version to be different from the cartridge version of the mechanics in a standard tier usless is some glitch.

Also also, sleep users suck.
Spore is literally only usable by Amoonguss, a defensive Pokemon that relies on it to incapacitate one of the many Pokemon that can threaten it, and is hardly likely to break the game even with with 2 free turns.
Sleep Powder is used by the very similar Tangrowth, and occasionally by Venusaur who usually can't spare the moveslot.
Hypnosis is used by Alolan Ninetales on the rare occasions it doesn't want two of: Hail to set Veil against other weather teams, Encore to prevent it turning into setup fodder and to mess with other leads, or Pain Split to give itself some form of longevity. It does have other potential users like Blace and Gengar, but again in practice they are so strapped for slots that no sets can actually run it, and also they are both so frail that a 40% miss can easily cost them their lives. At this point it's worth noting that between the chance to wake after 1 turn and the miss rate, Hypnosis has a <50% chance of granting you a free turn.
Grass Whistle lol.
Sing, also lol, and why are you using this on your Blissey/Clef instead of a far more useful utility move, like Stealth Rock, Teleport, Wish, Thunder Wave or Toxic.
Anything else I forgot?

Besides, sleep has a ton of counters compared to evasion boosting: having a mon already statused, clerics, lum berries, waking up after 1 turn can seriously screw the sleep user too so the opportunity cost is higher than spamming Substitute under sand storm.

If sleep was balanced then there shouldnt be a sleep clause and only ban the abusers if for example Amoonguss become broken in a non-sleep clause meta.

 

[remetagross]

A ton of stuff is balanced and still limited by a clause: freeze, for example. Or Spore in doubles, or sleep inducing moves other than Spore as long as gravity isn't up. And the fact sleep has been outright banned in 5G but not in the following gens tends to indicate the sleep mechanics are considered overbearing only if sleep is annoying to the point it was back in 5G.

 

[Tapeworm]

Sing, also lol, and why are you using this on your Clef instead of a far more useful utility move, like Stealth Rock, Teleport, Wish, Thunder Wave or Toxic.

Looks like someone forgot the one true Clef set.

Clefable @ Blunder Policy
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sing
- Belly Drum
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch

 

[Lalaya]

I genuinely don't get why Sleep should be banned since it's much different in nature than Evasion

You can't do anything but Haze away Evasion boosts, and aside from item removal (that might miss) or Ability removal (lol) you literally can't fight Evasion, just hope it doesn't screw you, while you can fight Sleep with numerous tools:

• you can Taunt the users since every Sleep move is a status move
• you can have some sleep absorbers in your team, be a status absorber or someone with Sleep Talk
• you can have Aromatherapy or Heal Bell users
• you can have healing items
• you can have Natural Cure
  

and... the cost of having one Pokèmon to sleep isn't that great either (well, depends on the battle), there's Rest too if you consider it and the sleep users themselves are just either weak or niche, other than every sleep moves having somewhat of a cost to run instead of just nothing but benefits regarding Evasion
and while Sleep IS claused because if you would be able to sleep more than a mon would be indeed a pain in the ass, that only really regard our tiers because who even is gonna use a sleep user in Ubers or AG? Hell, the only generation where Sleep is banned is the 5th, and just because Sleep mechanics are just too brutal there
I really don't need the feel of anything else other than our usual Sleep Clause, since Sleep can have its drawbacks and has a huge cost in just fielding a Sleep user unless you can naturally field that user (like AlolaTales on Hail or Screens HO) AND relying on not getting a 1turn wake up

Like man just play the damn game instead of trying to police it this hard

 

[KaenSoul]

I genuinely don't get why Sleep should be banned since it's much different in nature than Evasion

You can't do anything but Haze away Evasion boosts, and aside from item removal (that might miss) or Ability removal (lol) you literally can't fight Evasion, just hope it doesn't screw you, while you can fight Sleep with numerous tools:

• you can Taunt the users since every Sleep move is a status move
• you can have some sleep absorbers in your team, be a status absorber or someone with Sleep Talk
• you can have Aromatherapy or Heal Bell users
• you can have healing items
• you can have Natural Cure

and... the cost of having one Pokèmon to sleep isn't that great either (well, depends on the battle), there's Rest too if you consider it and the sleep users themselves are just either weak or niche, other than every sleep moves having somewhat of a cost to run instead of just nothing but benefits regarding Evasion
and while Sleep IS claused because if you would be able to sleep more than a mon would be indeed a pain in the ass, that only really regard our tiers because who even is gonna use a sleep user in Ubers or AG? Hell, the only generation where Sleep is banned is the 5th, and just because Sleep mechanics are just too brutal there
I really don't need the feel of anything else other than our usual Sleep Clause, since Sleep can have its drawbacks and has a huge cost in just fielding a Sleep user unless you can naturally field that user (like AlolaTales on Hail or Screens HO) AND relying on not getting a 1turn wake up

Like man just play the damn game instead of trying to police it this hard

I agree with this points but it ignores the problem with sleep clause, why are we using a mod?
Why is ok to only use mods in this one thing?

 

[Lalaya]

I agree with this points but it ignores the problem with sleep clause, why are we using a mod?
Why is ok to only use mods in this one thing?

why did we ditch item clause then
or why are we even using species clause since in normal wifi battles its not even enforced?
its not the only thing we just decided to use or not, and its something that the game also uses sometimes
its no different than other clauses

 

[KaenSoul]

why did we ditch item clause then
or why are we even using species clause since in normal wifi battles its not even enforced?
its not the only thing we just decided to use or not, and its something that the game also uses sometimes
its no different than other clauses

It is very different as we can agree to play in cartridge using species clause.
But if we agree to use sleep clause then we cant do what we can in showdown as it change how the game mechanics works, we would have to use a hacked switch and rom hack to be able to implement sleep clause.
This isnt pokemon stadium, saying ''something that the game also uses sometimes" is wrong.

 

[IPF]

for the love of god please stop