Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[SLDR]

Crawdaunt is a great mon running through fat and I love it for that on some particular teams; that said, it only becomes more of a genuine threat the fatter your own team gets. Daunt having the bulk of wet toilet paper and the speed of a snail with a broken leg makes it difficult to set up vs any team that can play offensively and virtually impossible to utilise long term vs such teams. Fantastic at dismantling defensive cores pretty indiscriminately sure but vs any opponent with half-decent risk/reward assessment it's way too hit or miss to consider on a lot of teams compared to the available lures, trappers, and generally overwhelming offensive cores which have much more focused targeting in what they can remove or force chip on that makes game plans go a lot smoother. If you're having difficulty dealing with Crawdaunt then likely: you're playing your team too passively and giving it way too many opportunities to make progress since it's not a mon that's best handled defensively, your risk/reward assessment needs some polishing, or you're running generic stall (in which case you need to accept that you're playing the matchup fish game already).

As a massive Crawdaunt stan I feel the urge to give you my two coins on this. As stan I mean that I love the 'mon, not that I think it's more viable than what it actually is, which isn't a lot. Anyway, I honesly believe that - outside of Trick Room - you are getting the biggest mileage out of Crawdaunt when equipped with a Choice Band (Crunch or Close Combat in the last slot) + Future Sight support. Aqua Jet is usually very weak but Crawdaunt's is strong enough to give it some late game potential and defensive utility alongside its Psychic immunity. Realistically, you're not sweeping with it simply because you won't safely set up with it as you said. Future Sight + Crawdaunt clicking Knock Off/Crunch is still damn near impossible for stall to switch into + you get your one hit against the more common builds, except it is more powerful and without recoil, before switching out. Heck, even though Adamant is 100% more Alpha, Jolly isn't terrible either because it outruns some key mon like slow Rotom-W, SpDef Lando-T, SpDef Heatran, Modest Magnezone and stuff.
So yeah, if you haven't tried it, I suggest you give Choice Band Crawdaunt a shot in a pivot-heavy, Future Sight offense/bulky offense - or Trick Room.

disclaimer: I know I used "you" a lot, but the only the first one is actually directed at you Tapeworm, otherwise it's for everyone reading

 

[Azure]

I've been enjoying the post-Kyu meta a lot personally. I definitely feel less strain on my teambuilding, and have had an easier time coming up with more varied stuff. I've had two sets in mind lately that I've thought about building with, both of which I think benefit a lot from Kyu's removal, and aren't super prepped for right now.

set

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Protect

Has anyone had success with Suicune in the post-kyu meta yet? It's a mon I've been meaning to build with lately, I think it benefits a lot from Kyu being gone. I feel like a lot of those Lando/Corv or Lando/Ferro bulky offenses are particularly annoyed by it, and usually aren't prepped super well for it. It gets a decent bit of free turns vs them, and if they aren't carrying something like Pex, Gastro or Volcanion, scald's often a pain for that archetype to come in on. Offensive counterplay can get worn down by scald and burn over time, and specially bulky stuff like Slowking-Galar can get set up on. Though with all that being said, all the aforementioned bulky waters, not to mention CM Fini which I think also benefits from Kyu being gone, are pretty annoying roadblocks to it. I don't think they're insurmountable though, Suicune tends to force those answers in and can create good openings to double against them to get some initiative, at least. With these archetypes of bulky offense being as dominant as they are, I feel like it's worth exploring, though I'll need to test it more myself.

set

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 108 Def / 192 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Taunt/Secret Sword

This is a bulky Keldeo spread I've been trying out lately, that I got from Storm Zone. The given EV spread makes Keldeo faster than unboosted Garchomp, and lives two banded triple axels from Weavile from full ( 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Keldeo: 135-162 (41.7 - 50.1%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery ). Max speed can be run to outpace Specs Blacephalon though, if that's more of a concern for the team. For the same reasons as Suicune, I think this Keldeo set has some interesting potential again, particularly the Taunt variant, since it has one less check to worry about lacking Secret Sword vs in the case of Kyurem. I really like how this set matches up against common bulky offense and balance on paper, with taunt allowing you to bypass Toxapex, Substitute enabling Keldeo to take on Future Sight users easier, it's fairly decent speed tier, and again, being able to wear down counterplay with Scald over time.

 

[Lobsta]

Hey, okay so im seeing crawdaunt more on the ladder and can i ppint out that this thing is just disgusting and should be banned? It can just switch in on something it forces out and use sd. Lorb and adap are enough to crush teams the only switch in fini gets easily chipped and doesnt want its leftovers knocked. Its stabs are hard to switch in to as i said only fini can do this and isnt reliable at all. Defensively answering daunt is too hard you can revenge kill it with lele and bulu but these dont want to switch in. Other faster mons that could "revenge kill" it take loads from aqua jet. Koko gets ohkod for example and pult 2hkod. Can we ban this thing?

I've been enjoying the post-Kyu meta a lot personally. I definitely feel less strain on my teambuilding, and have had an easier time coming up with more varied stuff. I've had two sets in mind lately that I've thought about building with, both of which I think benefit a lot from Kyu's removal, and aren't super prepped for right now.

set

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Protect

Has anyone had success with Suicune in the post-kyu meta yet? It's a mon I've been meaning to build with lately, I think it benefits a lot from Kyu being gone. I feel like a lot of those Lando/Corv or Lando/Ferro bulky offenses are particularly annoyed by it, and usually aren't prepped super well for it. It gets a decent bit of free turns vs them, and if they aren't carrying something like Pex, Gastro or Volcanion, scald's often a pain for that archetype to come in on. Offensive counterplay can get worn down by scald and burn over time, and specially bulky stuff like Slowking-Galar can get set up on. Though with all that being said, all the aforementioned bulky waters, not to mention CM Fini which I think also benefits from Kyu being gone, are pretty annoying roadblocks to it. I don't think they're insurmountable though, Suicune tends to force those answers in and can create good openings to double against them to get some initiative, at least. With these archetypes of bulky offense being as dominant as they are, I feel like it's worth exploring, though I'll need to test it more myself.

set

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 108 Def / 192 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Taunt/Secret Sword

This is a bulky Keldeo spread I've been trying out lately, that I got from Storm Zone. The given EV spread makes Keldeo faster than d Garchomp, and lives two banded triple axels from Weavile from full ( 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Keldeo: 135-162 (41.7 - 50.1%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery ). Max speed can be run to outpace Specs Blacephalon though, if that's more of a concern for the team. For the same reasons as Suicune, I think this Keldeo set has some interesting potential again, particularly the Taunt variant, since it has one less check to worry about lacking Secret Sword vs in the case of Kyurem. I really like how this set matches up against common bulky offense and balance on paper, with taunt allowing you to bypass Toxapex, Substitute enabling Keldeo to take on Future Sight users easier, it's fairly decent speed tier, and again, being able to wear down counterplay with Scald over time.

I cant remember the last time I used keldio in SS OU. A Mon that I often forget exists but the set look promising. Won’t say much else about keldio cause I don’t know much else.

Suicune though…
I’ve used Suicune a few times in NDOU (granted this was a few months ago back when I played) and it definitely works as not only a defensive mon but also as a wincon. It’s water type clefable in a sense. As you already mentioned, Suicune benefits greatly from one less freeze dry user, water resist, and sub pressure user to compete with. Speaking of which, you complete glossed over Suicune’s ability to abuse pressure to beat defensive walls that might normally throw a wrench in it’s plans. In fact due to its perfect 404 hp with 252 hp evs it gets 101 hp subs which means that it wins long term vs seismic toss users like bliss. Not to mention that it can use a lot of defensive mons as setup fodder as they effectively can’t do anything against it. Now going back to the evs I mentioned earlier I think they could use some optimization. When you look at the speed tiers there really isn’t much point of running max speed, the only thing it gets you is a speed tie with Cresselia, Kommo-o, Nidoking, Rillaboom, opposing Suicune, and Tapu Fini (All max speed). You also outspeed anything below 295. None of the speed ties are really that important, I mean at first glance Cresselia and Kommo-o seem important because you don’t want to take a toxic. However all variants of those two mons you will see that carry toxic aren’t max speed anyway unless it’s some random nieche Cresselia set. Tapu fini might also seem pretty important but I don’t think it’s that worth it as the only thing that fini can do to stop you is knock or taunt. Typical knock sets however don’t run max speed and it doesn’t really matter if you outspeed taunt sets, not to mention scarf also runs taunt which you will never be able to outspeed anyway. Now with that out of the way I think that we should drop Suicune’s speed to 283 (timid 208 evs). I ended up on 283 speed because the next important MU on the speed tier is max speed swole which is 282. If you outspeed swole you can pressure cheese it all you want with protect and sub spam not to mention you don’t have to worry about getting deleted by band (pretty rare I know but still). Now the question is where to we put the remaining evs? Well I’m just going to go with physdef or spdef probably physdef. There’s probably more optimization to be done there too but I’m lazy and don’t feel like doing that many calcs atm. LMN if someone finds a better use of the remaining evs.

 

[Azure]

I cant remember the last time I used keldio in SS OU. A Mon that I often forget exists but the set look promising. Won’t say much else about keldio cause I don’t know much else.

Suicune though…
I’ve used Suicune a few times in NDOU (granted this was a few months ago back when I played) and it definitely works as not only a defensive mon but also as a wincon. It’s water type clefable in a sense. As you already mentioned, Suicune benefits greatly from one less freeze dry user, water resist, and sub pressure user to compete with. Speaking of which, you complete glossed over Suicune’s ability to abuse pressure to beat defensive walls that might normally throw a wrench in it’s plans. In fact due to its perfect 404 hp with 252 hp evs it gets 101 hp subs which means that it wins long term vs seismic toss users like bliss. Not to mention that it can use a lot of defensive mons as setup fodder as they effectively can’t do anything against it. Now going back to the evs I mentioned earlier I think they could use some optimization. When you look at the speed tiers there really isn’t much point of running max speed, the only thing it gets you is a speed tie with Cresselia, Kommo-o, Nidoking, Rillaboom, opposing Suicune, and Tapu Fini (All max speed). You also outspeed anything below 295. None of the speed ties are really that important, I mean at first glance Cresselia and Kommo-o seem important because you don’t want to take a toxic. However all variants of those two mons you will see that carry toxic aren’t max speed anyway unless it’s some random nieche Cresselia set. Tapu fini might also seem pretty important but I don’t think it’s that worth it as the only thing that fini can do to stop you is knock or taunt. Typical knock sets however don’t run max speed and it doesn’t really matter if you outspeed taunt sets, not to mention scarf also runs taunt which you will never be able to outspeed anyway. Now with that out of the way I think that we should drop Suicune’s speed to 283 (timid 208 evs). I ended up on 283 speed because the next important MU on the speed tier is max speed swole which is 282. If you outspeed swole you can pressure cheese it all you want with protect and sub spam not to mention you don’t have to worry about getting deleted by band (pretty rare I know but still). Now the question is where to we put the remaining evs? Well I’m just going to go with physdef or spdef probably physdef. There’s probably more optimization to be done there too but I’m lazy and don’t feel like doing that many calcs atm. LMN if someone finds a better use of the remaining evs.

I actually feel like max speed Timid Suicune is still important, or at least hitting 290, as it lets you outpace Modest Tapu Lele. Avoiding getting hit by a strong Psyshock could be very beneficial when going for a win with Suicune. It's still impossible to cover Timid Lele, but I think getting the jump on modest is a notable enough scenario to want to be faster. It could realistically determine wether you're winning a game with Suicune in the Lele matchup or not. With at least 290 speed, Suicune can be behind a sub and take out a chipped Modest Lele before it can attack. If Lele is their best Suicune counterplay, you can scald them into range first and then sub when it's safe. A slower Suicune has to take a different approach, and can't preserve it's sub as easily in the Modest Lele matchup

 

[Finchinator]

Happy New Year everyone!

Thanks for another eleven months of lively discussion and one month of an attempt to justify complex bans, rid the Pokemon Showdown of the Toxapex species, and so much more.

 

[N_Mareanie]

Thank you Finchinator

 

[Clone]

Happy New Year everyone!

Thanks for another eleven months of lively discussion and one month of an attempt to justify complex bans, rid the Pokemon Showdown of the Toxapex species, and so much more.

Heres to 11 more months

 

[pulsar512b]

Happy New Year everyone!

Thanks for another eleven months of lively discussion and one month of an attempt to justify complex bans, rid the Pokemon Showdown of the Toxapex species, and so much more.

11 months of good and 1 of bad? It feels like it's the other way around- 11 of bad and 1 month of good :P

But otherwise, one of the big things that was hugely helped by the Kyurem ban has to be Gastrodon, especially considering how it's often the case that the bulky balance teams got destroyed by Kyurem. It's ability to check pult, tran, electrics, and so much more is still true, and I wrote a post a while back that I think still holds up (should probably write that rmt, huh).

 

[agslash23]

Happy New Year Smogonites!!!

On that note, let's ban quick claw, since we are banning RNG based items and abilities like King's Rock and Sand Veil respectively

 

[Liquidocelot]

To another year of me hovering between top 20 and top 200 on ladder with a stupidly inconsistent sand team. But hey at least I completed my goal of having a set named after myself.

 

[ant4456]

I've been enjoying the post-Kyu meta a lot personally. I definitely feel less strain on my teambuilding, and have had an easier time coming up with more varied stuff. I've had two sets in mind lately that I've thought about building with, both of which I think benefit a lot from Kyu's removal, and aren't super prepped for right now.

set

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Protect

Has anyone had success with Suicune in the post-kyu meta yet? It's a mon I've been meaning to build with lately, I think it benefits a lot from Kyu being gone. I feel like a lot of those Lando/Corv or Lando/Ferro bulky offenses are particularly annoyed by it, and usually aren't prepped super well for it. It gets a decent bit of free turns vs them, and if they aren't carrying something like Pex, Gastro or Volcanion, scald's often a pain for that archetype to come in on. Offensive counterplay can get worn down by scald and burn over time, and specially bulky stuff like Slowking-Galar can get set up on. Though with all that being said, all the aforementioned bulky waters, not to mention CM Fini which I think also benefits from Kyu being gone, are pretty annoying roadblocks to it. I don't think they're insurmountable though, Suicune tends to force those answers in and can create good openings to double against them to get some initiative, at least. With these archetypes of bulky offense being as dominant as they are, I feel like it's worth exploring, though I'll need to test it more myself.

set

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 108 Def / 192 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Taunt/Secret Sword

This is a bulky Keldeo spread I've been trying out lately, that I got from Storm Zone. The given EV spread makes Keldeo faster than unboosted Garchomp, and lives two banded triple axels from Weavile from full ( 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Keldeo: 135-162 (41.7 - 50.1%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery ). Max speed can be run to outpace Specs Blacephalon though, if that's more of a concern for the team. For the same reasons as Suicune, I think this Keldeo set has some interesting potential again, particularly the Taunt variant, since it has one less check to worry about lacking Secret Sword vs in the case of Kyurem. I really like how this set matches up against common bulky offense and balance on paper, with taunt allowing you to bypass Toxapex, Substitute enabling Keldeo to take on Future Sight users easier, it's fairly decent speed tier, and again, being able to wear down counterplay with Scald over time.

I disagree with this post on the notion of "please god let's not encourage using Suicune"

keep that demon out of this Please

anywho, Keldelo has always interested me in SWSH tbh. Of course there is Pex and Fini, but still

 

[RedDiamond1024]

To another year of me hovering between top 20 and top 200 on ladder with a stupidly inconsistent sand team. But hey at least I completed my goal of having a set named after myself.

Which set is named after you?

 

[TailGlowVM]

Which set is named after you?

The Ocelzolt - mixed Life Orb Dracozolt.

 

[kosecant]

The Ocelzolt - mixed Life Orb Dracozolt.

That was such a classic, good job on that!

Somebody also brought up quick claw as being rng based and therefore uncompetitive, but I’m unconvinced. What are other peoples thoughts on it? I think that occasionally going first is less influential than occasionally taking no damage, and it still has counter play in only making them go first within their priority bracket, so you still lose to any priority move, which isn’t really all that crazy imo

 

[Lobsta]

I disagree with this post on the notion of "please god let's not encourage using Suicune"

keep that demon out of this Please

anywho, Keldelo has always interested me in SWSH tbh. Of course there is Pex and Fini, but still

You are scared of the Suicune‘s power

 

[Dreadfury]

That was such a classic, good job on that!

Somebody also brought up quick claw as being rng based and therefore uncompetitive, but I’m unconvinced. What are other peoples thoughts on it? I think that occasionally going first is less influential than occasionally taking no damage, and it still has counter play in only making them go first within their priority bracket, so you still lose to any priority move, which isn’t really all that crazy imo

It's more likely a Policy Review discussion than anything else, but I'm personally of the mindset that Quick Claw isn't a healthy element despite being arguably more niche than any of the stuff listed under Evasion Clause.

IMO shit like Quick Draw+Quick Claw G-Slowbro (which some people know I've jokingly referred to as "Skillbro" in the past) has absolutely no place in any competitve format and other OU metagames (think BDSP OU) have seen stuff like Quick Claw Manaphy being run occasionally. It's useless most of the time, but having your Latios or Garchomp getting outsped despite there being zero player input on either side takes an element of skill out of the game. Gimmicks that are useless 90% of the time but have a 10% chance of potentially stealing an entire game just tend to be uncompetitive.

 

[Empress Mobile]

To another year of me hovering between top 20 and top 200 on ladder with a stupidly inconsistent sand team. But hey at least I completed my goal of having a set named after myself.

Ok no offense, but didn't you name it after you yourself?

 

[Liquidocelot]

Ok no offense, but didn't you name it after you yourself?

Shhhhh nobody needs to know the actual details of what happened. Just that it happened....

 

[Jordy]

what is ocelzolt and why are you the only person that calls it that

 

[Jordy]

Offense intended

 

[Baloor]

 

[pulsar512b]

its more fun than *checks the agenda* quick claw discourse
istg if yall start THAT i want some HEADS

 

[agslash23]

That was such a classic, good job on that!

Somebody also brought up quick claw as being rng based and therefore uncompetitive, but I’m unconvinced. What are other peoples thoughts on it? I think that occasionally going first is less influential than occasionally taking no damage, and it still has counter play in only making them go first within their priority bracket, so you still lose to any priority move, which isn’t really all that crazy imo

3 words - Quick Claw Melmetal

 

[Darkortex]

3 words - Quick Claw Melmetal

Bro dont even remind me https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8nationaldex-1328791692

 

[pulsar512b]

its more fun than *checks the agenda* quick claw discourse
istg if yall start THAT i want some HEADS

*taps sign* NO.

but in all seriousness, this sort of discourse goes nowhere productive and we just end up in circles forever.



On a serious note- I think one big potential benefactor of the Kyurem ban is the RillaZone/grassspam offenses, as they love having an offensive rillaboom check being removed and the rise of cores like lando+slowbro. They were already great, now they could be even better