OU BW OU Hub

[Finchinator]

I just wanted to voice an opinion regarding baton pass, as it was deleted elsewhere. I would much prefer if a complex ban was implemented as opposed to an outright removal. I believe celebi to be a useful mon in the current meta, with a lot of its viability dependent on its access to this move. The only legitimate reason for a complete banning is previous precedent.

Yet, a complex ban of swift swim+ drizzle exists despite swift swim having no place in BW OU at the moment. I know this concerns events well in the future (on the finishing of SPL), but i figured if people aren't vocal about it now, the move will likely remain banned in full.

I know im not a player with credibility skill-wise, but i see nothing wrong with the contents of my argument.

Thanks for the read (and pls dont delete again :))

Everyone who has access to the forums has a right to share their thoughts, even if it is just in a thread like this, so do not worry about that. I am glad you posted. The other thread was geared to different topics (questions to help inform newer players), so arguments and discussion do not really belong there.

Personally I was in favor of banning the Baton Passing of stat boosts. I feel this tackled the problem we were faced with while preserving the viability of a noteworthy Pokemon like Celebi. I would love to have Celebi back in full to check Technician Breloom lmao

Others stated that strategies such as Aqua Ring pass would still be present and that every prior complex ban of Baton Pass has proved to be insufficient, leading to further future bans such as this one. Ultimately, the OGC leader and part of the BW Council supported banning the move outright because of this. While I would like to have Celebi around, I will be the first to admit that their logic was understandable and also sets a much better precedent than prior bans have.

We will be voting on this matter with a larger group of people after SPL to reinvestigate.

---

Yet, a complex ban of swift swim+ drizzle exists despite swift swim having no place in BW OU at the moment. I know this concerns events well in the future (on the finishing of SPL), but i figured if people aren't vocal about it now, the move will likely remain banned in full.

I also want to touch on this. This ban happened over ten years ago. It should be undone and simply reverted to a ban of Swift Swim, too, because the precedent it sets is bad and the direction it took was not the correct one.

 

[Samu77]

If we are relooking at old abilities and decisions made by them, I would like to ask if it is possible that we relook at Sand Rush, more specifically banning Sand Rush on Excadrill specifically. Now I'm not saying that Sandslash and Stoutland are suddenly going to be top 5 Pokemon in the tier, however I think that overall it would still allow more options in the metagame.

I understand that getting this unbanned could potentially take a lot of work and that it might not be seen as necessary, however I think that it should be re-examined regardless. I don't fully believe that there should be arbitrary restrictions on Pokemon that were at worst inoffensive simply because one Pokemon was too powerful. Obviously this wouldn't take place until after SPL anyways

 

[FNH]

If we are relooking at old abilities and decisions made by them, I would like to ask if it is possible that we relook at Sand Rush, more specifically banning Sand Rush on Excadrill specifically. Now I'm not saying that Sandslash and Stoutland are suddenly going to be top 5 Pokemon in the tier, however I think that overall it would still allow more options in the metagame.

I understand that getting this unbanned could potentially take a lot of work and that it might not be seen as necessary, however I think that it should be re-examined regardless. I don't fully believe that there should be arbitrary restrictions on Pokemon that were at worst inoffensive simply because one Pokemon was too powerful. Obviously this wouldn't take place until after SPL anyways

I tried to get chlorophyll unbanned a while back. I can't say I would try again, mainly because BW doesn't need more options, it needs fewer options. There is already so much to deal with from volc, gems, Alakazam, thundurus, and the list goes on and on. Players are already banging their head on the wall try to deal with the current list of threats. Re introducing new threats is hardly the right option at the moment even if these mons could be niche.

 

[LuckOverSkill]

What's good gamers.

I haven't posted teams in a while, but I topped the ladder yesterday:

I'm gonna post what I played around with to get there. If you've played me you'll definitely recognize these.

I'm not posting all of the teams I used, only the ones I used for at least 5-6 games. They're pretty fun to play and work well. Hopefully you'll find inspiration to make something new.

1) Rain Stall

Stalling in BW hasn't been a thing for ages. And I can see why. This team is definitely my best attempt at this playstyle. That Dragonite set autowins some games, and with confusion fishing it can muscle past bulkier teams by itself. Definitely something interesting to try, although I'm not convinced.

2) ScarfShao Sand

Mienshao is one of my favorite mons. I absolutely wanted a team with it, and this is what I got. I went Rock Slide on Exca for Helmet Skarm. Tyranitar's item is...yeah. You can run whatever you want on it. Maybe Custap Berry.

3) Gravity Skarm HO

This is what I used for the last 100 or so points. It starts off as your standard Custap Skarm team, but then it turns into a Gravity team. Yache on Lando is for Alakazam. You can play around with Alakazam's set if you wish.

4) Rain HO Empoleon

This is a very old team (you can tell from Scizor's set...lol). I decided to try it out again and it surpassed my expectations. It's pretty good at overloading things that annoy Empoleon, although Jellicent is a huge headache for this.

I also used that ABR Magic Guard team + Smurf a bunch, especially from 1000 to 1500, as they give me fast games with a very high winrate.

 

[mentalsoft]

As a player loves BW, I would like to post my thoughts on Baton Pass. I think the best solution is: Baton Pass unbaned, But Baton Pass cannot coexist with boosts move. I think celebi is important in BWOU, so I hope everyone can save celebi lol. The above is my personal opinion, I am looking forward to the final discussion results after spl.

 

[Azure_Crystal]

What's good gamers.

I haven't posted teams in a while, but I topped the ladder yesterday:

View attachment 407385

I'm gonna post what I played around with to get there. If you've played me you'll definitely recognize these.

I'm not posting all of the teams I used, only the ones I used for at least 5-6 games. They're pretty fun to play and work well. Hopefully you'll find inspiration to make something new.

1) Rain Stall

Stalling in BW hasn't been a thing for ages. And I can see why. This team is definitely my best attempt at this playstyle. That Dragonite set autowins some games, and with confusion fishing it can muscle past bulkier teams by itself. Definitely something interesting to try, although I'm not convinced.

2) ScarfShao Sand

Mienshao is one of my favorite mons. I absolutely wanted a team with it, and this is what I got. I went Rock Slide on Exca for Helmet Skarm. Tyranitar's item is...yeah. You can run whatever you want on it. Maybe Custap Berry.

3) Gravity Skarm HO

This is what I used for the last 100 or so points. It starts off as your standard Custap Skarm team, but then it turns into a Gravity team. Yache on Lando is for Alakazam. You can play around with Alakazam's set if you wish.

4) Rain HO Empoleon

This is a very old team (you can tell from Scizor's set...lol). I decided to try it out again and it surpassed my expectations. It's pretty good at overloading things that annoy Empoleon, although Jellicent is a huge headache for this.

I also used that ABR Magic Guard team + Smurf a bunch, especially from 1000 to 1500, as they give me fast games with a very high winrate.

Congrats on topping the ladder, I'm actually trying to get up to 1400+ atm. Also I love Empoleon and Gravity Teams.
Anyways, Enjoy your Month of February : ]

 

[Gamer1234556]

Alright, I am going to give a few cents on this controversy. I might not be the most experienced BW player out there, but this has been an issue that has been in my mind for a while.

While I do believe that the idea of having Baton Pass as a whole is overkill, I am not entirely as enthusiastic as others to completely bring it back by virtue of one reason: I just don't think Celebi is all that great of a Pokemon, to begin with.

I know I might risk getting a lot of hate from Celebi fans, but the problem I have with it is that even with Baton Pass... I just don't really see the appeal of Celebi. I guess a Pokemon that doesn't care about Scald, has awesome utility moves in Stealth Rock and can counter Breloom and common rain Pokemon such as Keldeo and Thundurus-T in a pinch sounds appealing, but every time I try to build with the onion I just end up getting extremely frustrated and give up on it. Building with Celebi means you need a spinner, a Pokemon that can actually remove the spikers, and reliable counterplay against Alakazam and Volcarona, and every time I do I always feel like I am 1 Pokemon short. If I wanted to combat rain, I would just use Latios + Alakazam as it prevents me from being completely passive, especially against Volcarona. If I wanted a Stealth Rock setter that also has a good matchup against Tentacruel, I would go for Seismitoad. I suppose Celebi does have some other sets that could use more exploration (i.e. Nasty Plot) but I am currently just not seeing the appeal of Celebi in its current form, hence my lack of enthusiasm for bringing Baton Pass back in the limelight.

 

[Gamer1234556]

Pardon the double post but I just want to share a set I found to be overlooked, but nonetheless very effective.


Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Taunt

BKC mentioned Taunt Gliscor being very underrated in the current meta, but what he didn't mention is just how difficult it really is to slot onto a team... until now. One problem I have with Support Gliscor is that it's extremely passive against Ferrothorn, especially in T1s where you have to choose between setting rocks up and risk losing your Toxic Orb or surrendering the hazard war. With Taunt, however, you can actually win the war against Ferro whilst potentially keeping your Orb intact.

Another overlooked, but very appreciated aspect about Gliscor is that it is... surprisingly fast for a support Pokemon. Being able to outspeed Excadrill, Skarmory, Cloyster and Dragonite at base is quite good, and with enough EV investment, you can actually Dragonite and Cloyster, which is much-appreciated leeway for Psyspikes teams. The max speed EVs I would creep it to would be 208 Speed EVs to outspeed Excadrill, but if you want more bulk to stave off Breloom, Dragonite, or the Psychics, you can always under creep it. I personally would recommend no lesser than 152 EVs on Gliscor so that you can Taunt Custap Skarmory.

Replays (Will provide more if I have future success with it):
vs
vs

 

[galarian darmanitan]

Hi does anybody have any teams with yache dual dance lando?

 

[peng]

With scooters SPL long over, ready yourself for the 0-3 SPL set dump that nobody asked for! Gonna be cutting down how much I play/think about mons for a little while because this metagame is kinda miserable

I've spoken at length in discord about how I'm not a huge fan of the current metagame and find teambuilding right now to be 100% "pick your poison", taking punts on which top 10 offensive mon you're gonna be really bad against. Every team is a match-up fish of some kind - we can point to every single SPL team so far and they're all weak to at least one of Breloom, Cloyster, Volcarona, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Dragonite, or Reuniclus. In any other metagame you'd be an idiot not to cover mons as good as this in the builder but in BW its actually essential to majorly compromise some match-ups to build remotely competent teams. I'll be the first to admit that I've adjusted to this shift worse than most, having built some absolute crap and played poorly to boot, but this point of view does seem to be shared with many of the players who are on good tournament runs themselves. We may need to act on something in the very near future.

I'd like to see some discussion on Volcarona / Cloyster / Gems.

The fact that Volcarona is counterless with its access to multiple great coverage options and several viable Gem choices means that Stealth Rock and positioning become of upmost importance in keeping it in check, unless you run two of Heatran/Keldeo/Dragonite on every team. A year ago, I found this solution absolutely fine as the only good Volcarona builds were Starmie Volcarona Smurf-type, which isn't too far a stretch to prep for in the teambuilder (see: the spinblocking thread). However, as time has gone on we've seen increasingly diverse ways for Volcarona teams to overcome the Stealth Rock issue, including fast Taunt/Imprison leads which require a completely different type of counterplay (Mental Herb, double rockers, scarf rockers), or pairing Volcarona with Cloyster which abuses the common Stealth Rockers to the point of near autowin if you ever click the move. The fact Cloyster itself can spin too makes reliably keeping hazards up vs the diverse Volcarona builds a pipedream and exposes how problematic Volcarona truly is.

The other way of prepping for mons like Gem Volcarona and Cloyster, outside of hazard control, is ensuring that they don't get free set-up on anything. Unfort if you rely on this then you're probably gonna get pumped by Screens / Memento / Healing Wish supported HO which we've seen a lot of in recent months too. Even relying on momentum to prevent these mons getting set-up chances can be simply overcome by Eject Button HO teams like the EB Magnezone + Cloyster build we saw from Crucify/TDK earlier in SPL - I'm sure there's undiscovered tech here too.

The issue here for me is the fact that Gem Volc and Gem Cloyster just OHKO shit they have no business removing so your main counterplay has to be preventing them ever setting up in the first place, which is easier said than done thanks to the wealth of supporting cast these teams can use to grant them the turns needed - between Rapid Spin, Taunt/Imprison leads, Stealth Rock lead abusers (Cloy), Eject Button, Screens, Memento, Healing Wish, and so on, combined with their variable Gem and Coverage, there will always be a variation of Volcarona or Cloyster that your team is well and truly shredded by.

Personally lean towards action on Gems but solid chance Volcarona is busted even without them

Anyway, the shit I brought / tested / theorymon'd over SPL:

Ferrothorn @ Mental Herb
Ability: Iron Barbs
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
Week1 vs soulwind:

MH Ferrothorn for Taunt leads with a particular eye on the Aerodactyl/Azelf Baton Pass teams that were legal week 1. Ferrothorn can run a million item choices because realistically it gets knocked most games anyway - items that have big upside on turn 1 are really viable here and Mental Herb didn't feel too wild. I also tested a bit of Mental Herb Landorus-T in later weeks on teams that were otherwise plowed by Aero Volc.

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Substitute
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Week1 vs soulwind:

Again, kinda a tech for the BP hype although it has other applications. Max Speed SubThundurus outspeeds Timid Mew and therefore Subs before the Taunt. Combined with MH Ferrothorn, this set wins vs BP from there as once the sweeper comes in, you just spam Sub until the Screens go down and then retaliate with the appropriate coverage. Being faster than Jolly Drill and faster than other Thundurus-T was also important on this Lati-less Rain team.

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 72 Spe
- Spikes
- Power Whip
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
Week 2 vs crucify:

Turbo Ferrothorn. We had 3x Thunder Wave on this Magnet Pull PsySpam team (Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Magnezone) and so it makes sense to give Ferrothorn some speed investment to bring it into a decent window vs paralysed opponents. With 72 Spe, Turbo Ferrothorn outspeeds everything up to and including paralysed Alakazam, just giving you more options vs the fast Psychics + Sword horses.

Tornadus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Substitute
- Torment
Week 3 vs finch:

Honestly this team for week 3 was a super risky pick that we knew had some atrocious match-ups as was evidenced - we punted quite hard on Finch not bringing rain due to my known PsySpam usage but unfortunately loaded into Scarf Mamoswine rain + SubKeldeo, which is really really rough on a team who's Icicle Spear switch-ins all give Keldeo free set-up... The offensive core of Latios Tornadus and ScarfChomp felt like it has the upside to take the risk here, though we didn't leave ourselves completely fucked if we loaded into something bad - pocket Torment Tornadus was a last-minute solution to several issues and having used it a decent amount since, I remain impressed by it. Tornadus mostly uses Torment sacrificially, similarly to Tailwind, in order to turn the tables on a sweeper in the mid/late-game. Torment prevents the opponent from clicking the same attack twice in a row and is therefore a nice solution on a team that has triple Ice-weak offensive Pokemon and the redundant defensive waters. Paired with Protect Tentacruel and Protect/Encore Polited, a whole range of Pokemon get ruined by Torment Tornadus. It can also be used alongside Substitute to annoy some other mons but this has always felt pretty inconsistent on a mon without the resistances that, say, Heatran has.

Gastrodon @ Custap Berry / Mystic Water
Ability: Storm Drain
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Recover


Earlier versions of the team vs finch had Scarf Latios and alternative Grounds over Garchomp, and we tried a bunch of stuff. Offensive Gastrodon and Offensive Seismitoad (yes, really!) are super interesting options as Tornadus supporters that shut down Rotom-W and having workable MUs vs Thundurus-T. Gastro/Seis Rains seem really underrated to me and I hope we see more of them in future, as they can run more varied sets than you'd normally see on Sand.

Amoonguss @ Eject Button
Ability: Regenerator

Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 8 Spe
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified

Full team:

This is a pretty well known 6 that I tested my own variants of in prep for a couple of weeks but never ended up using - the sets above are the cooler tech things I tried on it, with one such tech, EB Amoonguss, getting run out by dice a couple weeks after I passed the import. Eject Button is a truly absurd item and isn't respected enough. The most common applications we've seen of it are on specific HOs to provide set-up opportunities and disrupt pivots like Rotom-W and Gliscor - see EB Jellicent, Jirachi, even Magnezone. However, its also super potent combined with Choiced / Gem wallbreakers that otherwise struggle to get switch-in opportunities and I believe EB Amoonguss to be a viable partner for CB Terrakion, a mon I otherwise think is very bad. Something else I had tested on this team and others was snail Landorus-T, which underspeeds Skarmory and therefore can prevent it from Roosting. This is a strategy we've seen gain popularity with Gliscor over the last year or so and Landorus-T can perform the same slow Pivot / Skarm punisher role, but with a strong HP Ice is still robust into the likes of Dragonite. I don't think this was the perfect 6 for slow Lando but I'm certain its a viable set on teams that otherwise struggle into defensive cores containing Skarmory (possibly some kind of Alakazam offense).

Politoed @ Eject Button
Ability: Drizzle
- Thief

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified

Same as above. Eject Button + absurd Choiced mon is really potent. Politoed extra good because it can thief after Button activation and still act as a regular Poli.

Nidoqueen (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 18 Spe
- Stealth Rock / Protect
- Toxic Spikes
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower
<-what i've used the most but theres some other viable 6s

Queen. A bit like the Eject Button stuff, Nidoqueen PsySpam is something that I've had on the backburner for a while as a ladder farm tool but for this one I've never found the perfect opportunity to bring it in tournament. With my playing inspiration at an all time low it might never get its modern tour debut in my hands but if anyone reading this is intrigued I'd highly recommend giving this mon / archetype a try.

Nidoqueen is functionally the same here as in DPP - its a discount Gliscor that gets Toxic Spikes in a metagame where basically nothing good gets Toxic Spikes. TSpikes are, in theory, super solid on PsySpam teams for a few reasons:
1) They wreck Tyranitar super super hard and completely turn the TTar vs CM Reun / CM Latias interaction on its head
2) They fuck up HO teams super hard by putting mons like Breloom, Cloyster, Volcarona, and Garchomp on a timer - these teams are normally a bad MU for PsySpam as they prey on the passive hazard mons and abuse your over-reliance on Alakazam to revenge kill stuff. TSpike flips the MU on its head nicely and allows you to reduce reliance on Alakazam.
3) PsySpam is inherently strong into the 1 match-up where TSpike is unusable - Tentacruel rain. Other TSpike teams, like rains themselves, can struggle a bit into the Tentacruel mirror depending on what your sweeper is, whereas Psychics are never really going to have that issue.

We've seen a dice TSpike Hail in the past (Aboma / Glisc / Exca / Tenta / Reun / Zam) but I really liked the idea of TSpike + Jellicent, which Hail would run out of teamslots for. The Sand above, using ScarfTar / Nido / Skarmory / Balloon Jellicent / CM Latias / Sash Alakazam is the strongest Nidoqueen 6 I managed to put together.

The spread is for these calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs / Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Nidoqueen: 324-382 (84.3 - 99.4%)
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Nidoqueen: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%)
You barely survive these two attacks, which feel like tidy benchmarks on both ends of the attacking spectrum to allow you that extra TSpike turn. Reduced Speed IVs lets you underspeed Skarmory, not super important but EPower on Roost is 2HKOing where Flamethrower can feel weak.

Other viable TSpike mons :

• Tentacruel - obviously
• Nidoking - fastest Pokemon to get Stealth Rock + Taunt + Toxic Spikes
• Scolipede - fast lead dual Spiker than unfortunately does nothing to punish Skarmory
• Forretress - Custap lead I guess
• Roserade - dual Spiker but awkward trying to fit steels in alongside it
• Cloyster - yea
• Smeargle - don't laugh, but I think Smeargle can surely do something in this crazy HO metagame. Obviously gets every combination of moves in the game, and stuff like Lunar Dance / Destiny Bond / hazards / Rapid Spin / Encore make for crazy combinations as a 6th slot wildcard mon. We messed around with like TSpike + Lunar Dance Smeargle on a whac Acupressure Tentacruel team, helping it to stall out mons it otherwise struggles with along with giving Tenta a health+PP reset. Maybe something like that on some cheese is viable, who knows

 

[Gamer1234556]

Incoming rant about Scald lol. In the BW Community Server, I saw a lot of takes about Scald that I personally disagreed with, so I wanted to dedicate an entire wall of text of my thoughts about the issue as a whole. I was actually planning to post this there, but I felt like it would be better to post in the forums since this is a rather underdiscussed topic nowadays.

A while back, Peng talked about how Scald should have been banned back in 2011 because now the meta is in such a mess that Scald just ends up being merely a bump in the messy road. I mean, I don’t really blame the committee back then, it was ill-prepared to deal with the shitshow BW’s meta became over a decade. I personally thought he made some really good points and it made me think about the implications that a Scald ban would have on the metagame.

RE: “Sand Teams would be broken”

Well, Sand teams must choose between being weak to Scald or Fast Offense. The problem is that if you prepare for Scald, then you become weak to Volcarona, and vice versa. In the current meta, Sand Balance just feels terrible. It's so difficult to viably run a Sand team especially since there is so much stuff you must cover. Nowadays, I either run Rain to not lose to HO or HO to counter-team other HO teams. Banning Scald would make Sand Teams better because then stuff like Scarf Chomp would be much better, but I don’t really see it as a problem because Sand Balance has no business not feeling this lethargic to use.

RE: “Rain teams rely on Scald to beat Ferro”

Ferrothorn doesn’t run Leech Seed + Protect that often, meaning that its a lot easier to wear down throughout games. When it comes down to it, do people rely on Scald THAT much to beat Ferro? Most of the Rain Teams I had seen run Keldeo/Thundurus-T or Tornadus/Mamoswine, neither of which rely on Scald to break Ferro. The fact that Ferro has ways to circumvent burns (Lum Berry and Rawst Berry) also undermines this point. I think the general idea is that relying on Scald burns is unreliable to beat Ferro because it means relying on 30% chances, which is anything but competitive or healthy.

RE: “Bulky Water-types lose viability while Dragon-types become stronger”

Probably the most valid counterargument I had seen so far. Politoed, Tentacruel, Gastrodon and Seismitoad are all Pokémon that rely on Scald for consistent damage. A Scald Ban would mean that Politoed and Tentacruel become free entry points for Ferrothorn, Kyurem, Kyurem-B, Dragonite and Breloom. My take is that Rain becomes more niche but playable nonetheless, especially since Rain has other ways with dealing with Ferrothorn.

The basis of my argument comes from the fact that Scald is uncompetitive as a move and doesn’t have any place in the meta. Banning Scald means that the meta has an easier time sorting itself out. Of course, this is only my take, so what are other people’s thoughts? I would like to know.

 

[IUPLC]

Hey all, new to forums (I'm "6 Dragons Is Epic" on the BW server)

I think a metagame without Scald would be better in terms of overall quality of life. It's a stupid feeling to be unable to bring in a Pokemon that resists water (e.g., Kyurem-Black) into a Politoed or Tentacruel because doing so can lead to a 30% chance to be useless for the rest of the game.

A Scald ban obviously gives most dragons a field day against a lot of bulky waters unless they start packing Ice Beam out of concern for this, but Rain teams generally have tools to offensively check most dragons (see: Keldeo and Latios).

It makes me sad to see how the non-Dnite dragons have felt fairly out of the spotlight for a while now (especially with how bad traditional quad-dragon DragMag is at this point), so as far as I'm concerned, a Scald ban would just be a convenient excuse to start exploring those options a bit more.

Scald also introduces RNG to Rain mirrors in really dumb ways. As I've heard said before, in rain mirrors, the first person to burn their opponents' Tentacruel wins the game. I've had too many days where I click Scald on Tentacruel dozens of times and burn zero times yet get burned by the first Scald used on my Tentacruel.


That being said, I'm not sure I completely agree with the assessment of how Ferrothorn is affected by Scald. Rain teams don't rely on Scald to BEAT Ferro, but they do use it to dissuade it and would be much worse off against it without it. A Scaldless meta would allow Ferrothorn to come in on Tentacruel 100% of the time and lose its hazards in the end 0% of the time. Scald against Ferrothorn does make it easier for Rain to keep hazards at bay. If Ferrothorn keeps hazards up, then Ferrothorn would start keeping its hazards up against Rain more consistently for teams with Alakazam to abuse.

Psyspikes is already good against Rain, but banning Scald would just add yet another nail to the already-nail-infested coffin. It would make Rain still playable since it would barely make a difference for its HO Matchup (Scald is worse against Volc than a stronger water move, and most ways of beating HO lie in Rain's offensive mons anyway).

To be fair, Thundurus-Therian is still invited by any Ferrothorn, burned or not, but most scenarios where Ferrothorn is utterly toothless and also liable to die in one hit to Thundy are because it got worn down by either a Scald burn or its lack of Lefties in exchange for an item that circumvents Scald burns.

 

[galarian darmanitan]

Incoming rant about Scald lol. In the BW Community Server, I saw a lot of takes about Scald that I personally disagreed with, so I wanted to dedicate an entire wall of text of my thoughts about the issue as a whole. I was actually planning to post this there, but I felt like it would be better to post in the forums since this is a rather underdiscussed topic nowadays.

A while back, Peng talked about how Scald should have been banned back in 2011 because now the meta is in such a mess that Scald just ends up being merely a bump in the messy road. I mean, I don’t really blame the committee back then, it was ill-prepared to deal with the shitshow BW’s meta became over a decade. I personally thought he made some really good points and it made me think about the implications that a Scald ban would have on the metagame.

RE: “Sand Teams would be broken”

Well, Sand teams must choose between being weak to Scald or Fast Offense. The problem is that if you prepare for Scald, then you become weak to Volcarona, and vice versa. In the current meta, Sand Balance just feels terrible. It's so difficult to viably run a Sand team especially since there is so much stuff you must cover. Nowadays, I either run Rain to not lose to HO or HO to counter-team other HO teams. Banning Scald would make Sand Teams better because then stuff like Scarf Chomp would be much better, but I don’t really see it as a problem because Sand Balance has no business not feeling this lethargic to use.

Wouldn't this just be fixed in a less messy way by banning bull shit volcarona/quiver dance? I can't think about any ways the game gets worse by banning volc.

 

[asterat]

I really wish there was a way to fix BW that didn't involve buffing Ferrothorn.

But if we're choosing between scald and volcarona, I think banning Volc is easily the way to go. Scald creates luck based situations during games. Volcarona creates coin flips in the team builder. Maybe scald should have been banned, but as far as I know banning moves is unprecedented and kind of a slippery slope. Banning a mon that significantly restricts teambuilding and is unhealthy (I know this is subjective) is consistent with tiering policy. Volcarona being gone does buff zam spikes, but I wouldn't be so sure that is necessarily going to be overbearingly dominant. Weatherless offense isn't really smurf or bust, there's a good amount of mons that can fit into that structure that can still pressure sand teams.

I think banning gems should also be considered. Volc has only been such a massive problem since people started running bug gem, and I don't really love other gems either. Offenses can just slap gems on all sorts of stuff and there isn't really counterplay. Every team is weak to some variant of gem spamming offense, they just increase matchup fishing hoping to hit the mons the gems are designed to overpower. Anything could randomly have a nuke of a certain type, it's hard to justify being allowed in my opinion.

Thundurus is also broken btw.

 

[galarian darmanitan]

Volcarona being gone does buff zam spikes, but I wouldn't be so sure that is necessarily going to be overbearingly dominant. Weatherless offense isn't really smurf or bust, there's a good amount of mons that can fit into that structure that can still pressure sand teams.

I think banning gems should also be considered. Volc has only been such a massive problem since people started running bug gem, and I don't really love other gems either. Offenses can just slap gems on all sorts of stuff and there isn't really counterplay. Every team is weak to some variant of gem spamming offense, they just increase matchup fishing hoping to hit the mons the gems are designed to overpower. Anything could randomly have a nuke of a certain type, it's hard to justify being allowed in my opinion.

Thundurus is also broken btw.

Honestly, reducing the penalties of bringing the defensive steels that volc abuses and freeing up their move slots from stuff like twave may equilibrate to keeping zam spikes in check or at least make them sacrifice some other aspects of their structure to use magnezone.

 

[GaryTheGengar]

I think the influence of volcarona/cloyster/gems/offense is massively overstated, in part because those mons end games so emphatically compared to staples like latios.

If you look at the spl usage stats for this season, volc sits in a modest 20th place usage wise with a subpar 42.86% win rate, while cloy sits at 24th with a good but not overbearing win rate of 54.55%. Most of the ho staples (dnite, loom, scizor) have win rates in the high 30s to low 40s, some of the lowest in the tour.

I think these mons saw initial success due to their potency against the popular traditional structures - psyspam, lando-t sand balance, rain with a heavy tentacruel reliance (even then this mu can be iffy). As time has passed players have began to adapt to these offensive teams by fitting things like keldeo or heatran on sand, mamoswine and starmie on rain, or even the likes of hippowdon and abomasnow popping up. This spl was much more diverse in terms of teambuilding than the last, and players who deviated from the norm were rewarded.

If we ban these offensive threats, we'll return to the monopoly that dual/tri psychic spikes had on the tier last year. Similar deal if scald is banned, not that this idea is being seriously entertained - you only weaken rain which is already widely seen as less viable than sand.

 

[IUPLC]

Getting rid of Volc would be absurd. Banning Volc takes away the biggest downside to using Psyspikes, which is something I doubt anyone wants.
I also fail to see how Volc is unhealthy. It requires specific support to be effective (mainly Spin but still), and its SPL usage is respectable but not ubiquitous. You have to account for it in the teambuilder as you would any of the other big threats, so how is Volc any different from something like Latios or Alakazam or Thundurus?

Obviously, Volc's 3rd attack makes it hard to know whether your team actually does anything about it unless you're running two of Heatran/Keldeo/Dragonite, but Alakazam also has variations that can annihilate would-be checks to other attacking move configurations (e.g., HP Fire against Scizor). Thundurus-Therian also has no full-stops irrespective of its fourth move (with its first three being Thunder, HP Ice, FB).

It just feels like any complaints about Volc are complaints that can apply to other threats of the tier, but those other threats of the tier aren't built around instantly ending games against unprepared teams, so Volc starts looking like a unique problem.

I can see Gems being an issue, but even then, Gems just add unpredictability to the offensive mons that use them. Gems just exacerbate what Volc already does: pick its counters. To me, getting rid of Gems isn't getting rid of something oppressive and ubiquitous but instead an effort to make the tier more predictable.

That being said, plenty of players far more experienced than me express concerns about Gems, so I could easily be missing something here, and in a world without Gems, Volc and Cloy can still do what they've been doing for the metagame for the most part.

 

[Nalorium]

Gm BW, while waiting for a change in the tier urgently, I will post a lot of teams and sets that I have created over the last few months, first of all I want to give a special thanks to cryos for letting me be part of their team, it has been a great experience.

Before I start with the teams and sets I would like to give my concrete opinion about the current state of the tier. The tier is a complete chaos, although lately I have to admit that it has felt a little less MU fish and smurf is not as broken as before, it is still a headache to build and prepare teams. In particular I would like to talk about the gems, I feel that they are an unhealthy item for the tier and would considerably reduce the presence of volcarona, Breloom and cloyster. Reducing the offensive capacity of the previously mentioned but without benifying certain archetypes, something that would happen when banning pokemons like volcarona. They are an item that I sincerely feel is unnecessary and does not really benefit the tier in any way. The role of this item can be substituted with Plates or LO, items that are clearly balanced and do not become absurd in certain MU's as it happens with Bug Gem or Rock Gem. Removing the gems would only reduce the current importance of offensive pokemon like volcarona and make certain MU's become more even than they are now. A basic example is Sand vs Bug Gem volcarona, where thanks to the gem, volcarona is able to kill tyranitar in one hit and still wreak havoc on the opposing team. The only thing that gems are currently doing is giving an unhealthy advantage to certain archetypes that are already good without them. If I could choose the plan of what changes to make to the tier I would definitely start with this item and I am sure that the changes that this ban would generate would be completely in favor of the tier. By banning this item I don't think it would concentrate the usage of the tier in psyspam but it would provide the possibility of buildear and use sand archetypes that are not currently viable due to the gems. (With this comment I also include all the interactions of certain mons vs x move + gem that make it currently obsolete).

Regarding banning Volcarona and Cloyster, I don't feel that either should be banned, since that would be giving a great superiority to psyspam over the rest of archetypes in the tier. I feel that both would be currently balanced if the gems are banned or nerfed as I mentioned previously. Both control and balance the interaction between Psyspam against the rest of the MU's. Banning them would generate a complete imbalance in the tier.

Well banning scalding is already something completely ridiculous and beyond my understanding, it is not at all the change that BW needs to improve and escape from the situation it is currently in. I have already seen several discussions about this ban and all have resulted in the same conclusion. BW needs something more drastic, not a move that relies primarily on RNG.

BW as an RPS game. It is already known that BW is in a similar situation to an RPS game in terms of the interaction of the 3 most known archetypes at the moment. Sand > Rain > HO > Sand. While I think it is something completely exaggerated and that little by little is changing, it is not something as far from reality as we want to think. The fact that this is happening does nothing but intoxicate the tier and it becomes a nightmare when it comes to building your own teams. We need to escape from this situation to first of all remove the horrible reputation that BW OU currently has and that makes new players prefer to learn other tiers instead of this one. We need to urgently make an effort to generate changes in the tier and see what comes out of it. We can't go on thinking that someday we are going to solve BW. As far as I know, when SPL is over in a few days the council will be making decisions about the tier, I just hope it doesn't end in a vague conclusion of either not banning anything or making a slight change that doesn't really affect the tier.

With that said, we can move on to the fun stuff.



I feel that Gyarados is a pretty underrated pokemon in the current meta. The slight decline that rotom-w has had in the current meta is something that favors gyarados a ton (18th place in use in this SPL vs. 9th place in the last one). Coupled with Pokemons like Mamoswine it becomes a complete threat to face the current HO's. Ive been spamming a lot offensive cores like Gyarados + Mamoswine + Thundurus, over the last month and they have given me excellent results both in ladder and in tours. Here is a team I made inspired by the above mentioned core and an alternate version.






Tornadus accompanied by pokemons like Alakazam, Thundurus and Latios has become a core that every time I use it gives me very good results. The idea of Tornadus is basically to take away the tyranitar's chople so that Alakazam can have a better MU against Sand. I swear this is not a copy of the idea finch used for SPL, I have proof that the idea originated the same week finch used it, which is a very rare coincidence. Similarly I've been using the core Tornadus + Kyurem since last year with a similar approach to the aforementioned, with one chip rotom/ttar so the other to take advantage and wreak havoc on the opposing team. In my opinion tornadus solves a great part of the problems that a rain team currently suffers against its MU vs sand but without worsening the MU vs smurf thanks to the tailwind and sub.



(U can change torn and poli set in the last one but I love the thundu set)


Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Metal Sound
- Rapid Spin

An interesting set to use on rain and not give a free set up to reuniclus.

I will post other sets and teams after roapl since I prefer to keep them secret for the tour.

Thanks for reading and excuse my english.

 

[IUPLC]

Before I start with the teams and sets I would like to give my concrete opinion about the current state of the tier. The tier is a complete chaos, although lately I have to admit that it has felt a little less MU fish and smurf is not as broken as before, it is still a headache to build and prepare teams. In particular I would like to talk about the gems, I feel that they are an unhealthy item for the tier and would considerably reduce the presence of volcarona, Breloom and cloyster. Reducing the offensive capacity of the previously mentioned but without benifying certain archetypes, something that would happen when banning pokemons like volcarona. They are an item that I sincerely feel is unnecessary and does not really benefit the tier in any way. The role of this item can be substituted with Plates or LO, items that are clearly balanced and do not become absurd in certain MU's as it happens with Bug Gem or Rock Gem. Removing the gems would only reduce the current importance of offensive pokemon like volcarona and make certain MU's become more even than they are now. A basic example is Sand vs Bug Gem volcarona, where thanks to the gem, volcarona is able to kill tyranitar in one hit and still wreak havoc on the opposing team. The only thing that gems are currently doing is giving an unhealthy advantage to certain archetypes that are already good without them. If I could choose the plan of what changes to make to the tier I would definitely start with this item and I am sure that the changes that this ban would generate would be completely in favor of the tier. By banning this item I don't think it would concentrate the usage of the tier in psyspam but it would provide the possibility of buildear and use sand archetypes that are not currently viable due to the gems. (With this comment I also include all the interactions of certain mons vs x move + gem that make it currently obsolete).

(RE: the underlined, bolded text)

I've said before that maybe I'm just clueless, but to me, this is a perfect example of issues where gems are cited as the root that I think are overstated and misplaced. I don't feel sufficiently convinced that Tyranitar getting OHKO'd by +1 Gem Bug Buzz is inherently problematic to the tier. One isn't forced to just watch their Ttar die to Bug Buzz as they send it out. Obviously, there's not much reliable counterplay that a team of e.g. Tar/Gliscor/Ferro/Latios/Zam/Reuni has to Volcarona because even if one pivots to Gliscor or sacrifices a Psychic to burn the gem, nothing stops Volcarona from clicking QD again. However, clicking QD again is a play that's easily punished, too, by e.g. Twave on Ttar. The point here is that winning the prediction game actually matters, and to me, that's a sign that the better player is who's getting ahead, which is the ideal state for any competitive game.

The current state of the tier forces a rock-paper-scissors match-up, and to my knowledge, Gems don't let HO overcome their MU vs Rain (without sacrificing their ability to beat Sand). I find it hard to buy into the idea that something is ban-worthy-broken if viable, hard-to-exploit ways to beat it exist. In the case of Gems, that would be the fact that Rain tends to care very little about whatever Gem is being thrown their way by HO. Of course, if I'm wrong about that, then my statements on this are pointless, and I'd be genuinely willing to admit I've been uninformed.

The current state of BW just feels like no one team can be expected to handle all others, and I fail to see how getting rid of Gems will solve issues related to that. Getting rid of Gems would rock the boat of this odd state that the tier has continuously gravitated towards for a while now, and it seems like drastic changes are needed to fix the RPS issues; losing Gems would do next to nothing on that front.

When talking about BW tiering action, it's sadly very easy for the uninformed to reduce a desire for change as just wanting to maintain the viability or even dominance of sand, and that's a card that some people always choose to draw when advocating against the ban of something. I don't want to come off that way, so I'd love it if people that are more experienced than me and disagree with my statements answered these questions to help me better understand.


What makes Gems oppressive to the metagame beyond rolling over certain Sand Teams? If nothing, then just how far-reaching and oppressive are Gems to Sand teambuilding (sand balance or otherwise)?

What would getting rid of Gems do beyond increasing the viability of things deemed currently unviable in the presence of Gems? [BW was hardly a diverse metagame even before Gems rose in popularity; raising meta diversity feels like an iffy argument to me]

Do Gems make the match-up of HO vs. Sand a more overwhelming one than Rain vs. HO (i.e., they go beyond just solidifying HO's place in RPS)? If yes, would the absence of Gems still let HO keep their place in the current RPS that is consistent with Rain vs. HO and Sand vs. Rain?

What is truly wrong with the unpredictability that Gems bring? Shouldn't there be an incentive to try and deduce your opponent's possible sets (even when they're hard to decipher) from team preview?

Shouldn't bringing an unconventional and unexpected set (e.g. some weird shit like Fire Gem Latios deleting a Ferrothorn) and executing it as intended be rewarded? If one successfully fools their opponent like that, shouldn't that be rewarded in-game?

 

[peng]

Shouldn't bringing an unconventional and unexpected set (e.g. some weird shit like Fire Gem Latios deleting a Ferrothorn) and executing it as intended be rewarded? If one successfully fools their opponent like that, shouldn't that be rewarded in-game?

not replying to the whole post rn because its going round in circles a bit, but this point is something that stands out

to me, the answer is no. You can already “fool” opponents with Colbur Fire Latios which 2HKOs Skarmory and Ferrothorn -designing lure sets in this way is how it works in almost any other generation and is a balanced part of pokemon. Where this steps into absurdity for me is the ability to effectively give STAB to any coverage move without the LO-like downside, which just adds tons of variance because would-be counters to offensive mons can now only do it very circumstantially. Rock Gem Cloyster, Psychic Gem Volcarona, Fighting Gem Landorus-T are the faces of this and whilst they are always “secondary” item choices, the coverage+Gem choice on these Pokemon very regularly decides games.
Thats where the issue lies re: coverage Gems. We’re not talking about picking a smart coverage move on a Pokemon to be able to circumstantially break a counter after some well worked chip damage e.g. mixed Garchomp weaking Landorus-T for a partner. We’re talking about Rock Blast Gem Cloyster making bulky waters and Heatran non-options as defensive counterplay mid-sweep, or Psy Gem Volcarona doing the same to Dragonite / Thundurus-T / Tentacruel. The ability to pair coverage choices and then boost them by 50% makes defensive counterplay in this tier a bit of a joke.

the most problematic aspect of Gems is still STAB gems to me, Cloyster OHKOing Magnezone on a resisted attack is super super dumb, but the coverage+gem aspect is also an issue

in literally every single one of these cases (volcarona, cloyster, latios, landorust, dragonite, breloom) if they had to use LO to get an attacking power boost, they become significantly easier to handle. To me thats because the risk:reward, upside:drawback of LO is inherently balanced where its not for Gems

 

[oldcvcv]

The current state of the tier forces a rock-paper-scissors match-up, and to my knowledge, Gems don't let HO overcome their MU vs Rain (without sacrificing their ability to beat Sand)

They do, Rock gem Cloy for waters, Psychic Gem volc for tenta/keld/thund under rain for example.

 

[MANNAT]

They do, Rock gem Cloy for waters, Psychic Gem volc for tenta/keld/thund under rain for example.

He specified without sacrificing their ability to beat sand, and both of those gems definitely worsen your sand MU.

 

[Dababy2]

I fail to understand the push to make the most powerful team format in Sand, even more dominant through a Volcarona, Cloyster, and Gems ban. I would love to see HO left alone as a team format as it is easily the most entertaining play style in the game. Is the Volc/Cloy/Gems ban movement due to sand being the most popular team format?

That being said, if I were forced to ban 1 of those 3, a gem ban is the most sensible option.

With all due respect, banning Volcarona and Cloyster is absolutely ridiculous when banning gems does more than enough to ease the matchup these 2 Pokemon present against Sand.

Cloyster is a Pokemon that gets demolished by Rotom and Keldeo. A Pokemon that is incapable of taking down Tentacruel and Jellicent at +2, and can’t even OHKO Reuniclus, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Gastrodon without an ice gem.

Volcarona can be countered by simply running a rock move on any bulky Pokemon or a scarf Pokemon above 328 speed. Volcarona is also deemed useless if stealth rocks are kept up.
This idea that Cloyster and Volcarona demolish sand teams is blown way out of proportion. Do Cloyster and Volcarona provide a better MU against sand? Yes. Do Cloyster and Volcarona provide an unwinnable MU against sand? Absolutely not. It seems as though those pushing for a volc/cloy/gems ban just have an underlying hate for hyper offence. The thing that sets BW apart from other generations is its fast paced battles and disregard for stall. By banning Volcarona and Cloyster we are not only making the strongest weather in Sand even more powerful, but also removing HO entirely from BW OU, harming the individuality and variety that BW OU presents.

A gem ban in my opinion is more than enough to nullify this so-called “problem”. An offensive life orb Volcarona at +1 is incapable of taking out an OU support Tyranitar in the sand in one hit even after stealth rocks.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 283-335 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Where as a Timid Volcarona with Bug Gem would have a 56.3% chance of killing this same Tyranitar in 1 hit after Stealth Rocks
+1 252 SpA Bug Gem Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 326-386 (80.6 - 95.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Some may say that the fact that builders must take into account how to stop Volcarona when creating a sand team is enough to warrant a ban. I feel this claim is unreasonable as it applies to multiple Pokemon in the tier. Latios, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Alakazam, and Reuniclus all must be taken into account when building yet it seems as though Volcarona and Cloyster receive all the criticism. Is this because the tier’s popular builders don’t often use Volcarona and Cloyster, or are they just easy targets due to their ability to set up quickly.

Something that also must be taken into account is how a Cloyster and Volcarona ban impacts other viable Pokemon in the Tier. Pokemon like Alakazam, Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Reuniclus will become even bigger threats, potentially leading to even more bans in the future.

A ban on Cloyster and Volcarona will lead to players abusing Sand and Psyspikes, limiting creativity while also phasing out rain (a weather already on the decline) due to sand often having an upper hand against rain. By crippling Hyper Offense, BW OU will simply become another generic tier with >40 turn battles. Sand is already the undisputed best team format and a Volc/Cloy ban will make the gap between sand and the rest of the tier that much larger.

 

[oldcvcv]

He specified without sacrificing their ability to beat sand, and both of those gems definitely worsen your sand MU.

I don't think psychic gem volc means you can't win vs sand, same for rock gem cloy, but maybe im wrong.

 

[Excal]

Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Force
- Rock Tomb
+

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature

i like this core on some sands that look very cloyster/ho weak on the surface. rock tomb is multipurpose, giving u relatively strong rock coverage against the likes of thundy gyara etc. main uses are doing good damage to cloy while denying it +2 speed, which enables zam to outspeed and revenge kill, as well as keeping dnite at bay and messing it up if it tries to dd in a last resort situation. this is effective because you're giving up a moveslot on drill but still finding it useful in other mus the way you would rock slide. main drawback is rock tomb accuracy is undesirable but i think it's acceptable given that you're using it to compensate for some worse mus (hyperoffense)